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When did 2000ad get good again.

Started by BPP, 04 July, 2019, 11:38:40 AM

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MumboJimbo

After reading this thread, I was thinking of continuing my recent prog slog (which is up to prog 750), but getting through the 90s by no longer reading all the prog, and instead being a bit selective in the stuff I read. I really can't face another Fleischer-penned Rogue Trooper in any case. I'd rather watch The Phantom Menace.

So the plan is I'm going to jettison the following on-going stories:

Fleischer's Rogue Trooper
Millar's Robo Hunter
Universal Soldier
Bix Barton (I feel bad about this one, because I remember enjoying it back then, but now...not so much)
Dead Meat
Harlem Heroes


Stories that haven't started yet, but I've heard bad things about are:

Kola Kommandos
Kelly's Eye
Space Girls
Blair-1
Baberace 2000 (My word, what they thinking?)
The Clown (although I have to say I rather like the look of this one)
The Summer Offensive stuff

With these I intend to give them a go, but drop them quickly if I'm not feeling it. The plan is to get from 750 to 1200 with the minimum of pain! I'm focusing on the bad stuff rather than the good, because I want my default action to be to read the strip. If I were to only have a list of good stuff then I might miss stuff others find nothing special but I might like. Anything you feel I may have missed?

Frank

#46
Quote from: MumboJimbo on 17 July, 2019, 12:17:34 PM
I intend to give (The Summer Offensive stuff) a go, but drop them quickly if I'm not feeling it.

I'd argue that there's no point doing a retrospective if you don't survey one of the most important and contentious periods in the comic's history.

But, taking your rationale at face value, John Smith and Paul Peart's Slaughterbowl is an objectively great 2000ad story in the tradition of stuff like Flesh and Midnight Surfer but with extra wit and genuine amoral nastiness.

Inferno's pretty miserable stuff but Carlos Ezquerra's art for this and its precursor, Purgatory, is (paradoxically) a career highlight. I like Maniac 5 and I think Big Dave is one of the greatest things 2000ad ever published, but I'm not going to get many signatures on my 38 Degrees petition for that one.



MumboJimbo

Quote from: Frank on 17 July, 2019, 12:35:46 PM
Quote from: MumboJimbo on 17 July, 2019, 12:17:34 PM
I intend to give (The Summer Offensive stuff) a go, but drop them quickly if I'm not feeling it.

I'd argue that there's no point doing a retrospective if you don't survey one of the most important and contentious periods in the comic's history.


Yes, I'm actually very interested in getting to Big Dave & co! A fascinating glimpse into that era. I'm just mindful that I've read only about 500 progs or so out of 2100-odd and there's a lot of 2000 AD content that I still have to read with a much stellar reputation. Also, it's not really a retrospective for me, as I wasn't reading it back then - more that I want to read some great stories that I missed out on.

Dandontdare

I'd take The Clown off that list - many people hated it, but I liked it, it doesn't really go anywhere but it's pleasingly odd and the art is great. The rest of the things you mention are pretty skippable though.

MumboJimbo

Quote from: Dandontdare on 17 July, 2019, 12:53:23 PM
I'd take The Clown off that list - many people hated it, but I liked it, it doesn't really go anywhere but it's pleasingly odd and the art is great. The rest of the things you mention are pretty skippable though.

Yes, The Clown does look like the kind of 2000 AD weirdness I personally love. It will be taken off of the list!

MumboJimbo

I missed out Trash, which everyone seems to hate, so my new list (taking into account the contributions above - thank you) is:

Trash
Kola Kommandos
Kelly's Eye
Space Girls
Blair-1
Baberace 2000

MumboJimbo

What about Timehouse - is that worth a decent try?

IndigoPrime

Everyone will have their own take on things. Of your original list, I'd say some of those aren't only poor, but are deeply offensive at times, not least Millar's Robo-Hunter. Universal Soldier, though, I thought was often pretty good – certainly readable – if derivative.

I'd agree with Frank on Slaughterbowl; even if it's a bloody extended Future Shock, it was for me the one saving grace of the otherwise risible Summer Offensive. (Really and Truly was just dull. Maniac 5 was bereft of ideas. Big Dave is atrocious, unless you like a teenager's take on satire, which totally misunderstands what satire is.) The Clown is one I had a re-read of quite recently. I didn't like it at the time. Now... it's fine. It won't win any awards, but it's not awful.

On your more recent list, Trash has nice art but is boring; Kola Kommandos has fairly nice art but is pointless; Kelly's Eye is dull; Space Girls is dire; Blair-1 is a half-arsed one-Prog joke extended to a series; and Baberace 2000 would be Millar's nadir had so many others not been battling for that crown. (Again, you don't lampoon X by becoming X.)

Timehouse... I'd actually quite like to re-read that. It strikes me as a strip out of place in 2000 AD, by a writer out of place in 2000 AD. But I really like a lot of what Hogan does now, and so am thinking revisiting his 2000 AD output might be in order.

Jim_Campbell

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 17 July, 2019, 02:24:35 PM
Timehouse... I'd actually quite like to re-read that. It strikes me as a strip out of place in 2000 AD, by a writer out of place in 2000 AD. But I really like a lot of what Hogan does now, and so am thinking revisiting his 2000 AD output might be in order.

Yeah... didn't feel quite right for the prog, but taken as its own thing, I quite enjoyed it. Certainly, in the company it was keeping in much of the rest of the prog, I rather welcomed the more whimsical tone and even a certain amount of charm.
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MumboJimbo

Thanks for the input  :)

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 17 July, 2019, 02:24:35 PM
Of your original list, I'd say some of those aren't only poor, but are deeply offensive at times, not least Millar's Robo-Hunter.

Wow - didn't know that. In what way?

broodblik

To see what is worthwhile just see what you can find that has been reprinted. If it's hard to get, then you know it is most likely not worth your time or effort. Most of the stuff you mentioned MumbiJimbo has not been reprinted. I will say it again stuff like Big Dave is just plain rubbish. I cannot remember any of these stories, but I can remember the stories prior to this period.
When I die, I want to die like my grandfather who died peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in his car.

Old age is the Lord's way of telling us to step aside for something new. Death's in case we didn't take the hint.

IndigoPrime

#56
Quote from: MumboJimbo on 17 July, 2019, 02:55:58 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 17 July, 2019, 02:24:35 PM
Of your original list, I'd say some of those aren't only poor, but are deeply offensive at times, not least Millar's Robo-Hunter.
Wow - didn't know that. In what way?
Colin Smith's book-like overview of Millar's work sums it up nicely: http://sequart.org/magazine/29692/camp-as-christmas-but-good-as-gold-mark-millar-shameless-part-28/

Later parts also explore the sewer that was Big Dave. Number 25 delves into Babe Race 2000.

EDIT: SPOILERS in the above, obv.

Funt Solo

It's an interesting list.  Of those you mention, I could separate them like this:

I had trouble plowing through them at the time they were published:
- Fleischer's Rogue Trooper
- Millar's Robo Hunter
- Universal Soldier [but some people love this]
- Bix Barton [but some people love this]
- Kola Kommandos
- Kelly's Eye

I wouldn't volunteer to re-read these but they were harmless at the time:
- Dead Meat
- Harlem Heroes [reboot]
- Trash

I read them but couldn't actually tell you what happened:
- Space Girls
- Baberace 2000
- Blair-1

I thought it was a great experience at the time:
- The Clown

I entirely agree with others about Slaughterbowl: really the highlight of the prog at the time and in hindsight during the offensive.  Big Dave had a certain Viz-like charm, but I haven't re-read it since it was published so I'm not actually sure how I'd find it today.

If you're looking to excise the blander end of the market (and I speak to my overall experience, even where perhaps the art was wonderful), you might consider adding to your list:
- Brigand Doom [Marmite]
- Skizz II & III [because it's not Moore]
- Soul Gun Warrior & Assassin
- The Grudge-Father
- Urban Strike [arguably just an extended ad]
- Maniac 6
- Kid Cyborg
- Outlaw
- Pussyfoot 5
++ A-Z ++  coma ++

IndigoPrime

Oh man. Some of those in the last list are even worse. The Skizz follow-ups were unnecessary and just didn't work. Brigand Doom was OK, but mostly because of the art. I remember finding Soul Gun incomprehensible, and the Grudgefather among the absolute worst dross in 2000 AD's history.

Urban Strike was appalling – Computer Warrior in Eagle showed that videogame ads dressed up as comics could work. This was just bilge. I don't even recall Maniac 6, which shows the impression it left on me, nor Kid Cybord. Outlaw was a drag.

Pussyfoot 5, though... Wasn't that in a floppy a while back? I recall that was OK, although left dangling in that way John Smith had a tendency to do.

Frank

Quote from: MumboJimbo on 17 July, 2019, 02:55:58 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 17 July, 2019, 02:24:35 PM
Of your original list, I'd say some of those aren't only poor, but are deeply offensive at times, not least Millar's Robo-Hunter.

Wow - didn't know that. In what way?

Millarhunter is deeply offensive in the same way as old episodes of Friends*


* Not a heartfelt plea for sanity or insistence that PC madness is out of control, just an observation that, as teenagers and young men, most people reading this wouldn't have raised an eyebrow at stuff that doesn't fly today. You don't even have to go back as far as the nineties - Matt Lucas (a gay Jewish guy) has recently apologised for the humour involving gay, trans and minority characters in Little Britain, which only feels like five minutes ago.

On balance, I don't think it's a terrible thing that we're all much more considerate of other people's feelings, but you also have to acknowledge that most people ain't too bright and regularly miss the point of dumb, inoffensive stuff just the same as they are liable to do with clever stuff that might be trying to use humour to comment on inconsistencies in human behaviour and attitudes.

Obviously, I'm not making any such claims with regard to Millar's Robohunter or other 2000ad work - it's dumb and unfunny and mostly just of very poor quality. Regarding Colin Smith's criticism of Millar, I'm VERY suspicious of those claiming offence on behalf of others, rather than, oh, I don't know, giving someone belonging to the minority involved the opportunity to speak up on their own behalf. I don't know Smith; maybe he's a leather queen (with fly eyes), but that oft-linked-to piece is unintentionally hilarious: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_valor