2000 AD Online Forum

Spoilers => Other Reviews => Topic started by: 2000AD Online on 21 January, 2002, 11:37:10 am

Title: Storming Heaven
Post by: 2000AD Online on 21 January, 2002, 11:37:10 am
That Storming Heaven sort of sucks.  The art is trippy but there`s no focus for the story.  It may redeem itself later, but I doubt it.
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: Thread Zero on 21 January, 2002, 04:02:12 pm
I love constructed criticism too!:O)

Gordon's mum.





Ok it's me really, scojo
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: Thread Zero on 21 January, 2002, 04:05:32 pm
Actually that should have been constructive crit.... oh what the hell am I talking about.

Everyone please ignore me.

scojo off to learn english
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: Wood on 21 January, 2002, 05:20:03 pm
But scojo, you're a screenwriter.

You don't _have_ to know English... :p
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: Mangamax on 21 January, 2002, 06:14:48 pm
It just feels like a watered down rip-off of Zenith.
Give me the original any day.
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: Thread Zero on 21 January, 2002, 06:32:16 pm
Well I am an aspiring one.

That means I ain't sold a page let alone a whole screenplay.
Sob!

For what it's worth, I prefer Storming Heaven to Shakara.
I like them both, but so far I feel Storming Heaven has the greater potential. It just has more in it to chew over.

Shakara just does his Shakara routine and that's er..it. So far anyway.

But Storming H has oblique drug references, questions the very metaphysical nature of existence, redefines the timeless mythic story notion that is good versus evil and has lovely flowers and men with unfashionably long facial hair.

As for what the story is actually about, I haven't a clue!

scojo still on Rennie tablets.


Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: nathan on 21 January, 2002, 06:33:47 pm
I only read book 1 of Zenith, and that was a long time ago. I don't remember much about it so can you remind me where the similarity is with Storming Heaven?

N
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: Thread Zero on 21 January, 2002, 06:45:19 pm
Mangamax,

Zenith was:
People with obsessive personality disorder yet blessed with superhuman ability, seeking the need to either A) save the world or B) destroy it.

Storming Heaven is:

People with obsessive personality disorder yet blessed with superhuman ability, seeking the need to either A) save the world or B) destroy it.

Can't see the similarity myself.

scojo now running out of rennie tablets

Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: Matt on 21 January, 2002, 06:54:10 pm
You can't criticise Stormin Heaven on that sole basis. It's about superheroes. What superhero comic isn't about saving the world or destroying it? When you boil it down to its basic premise that's the genre of the superhero.
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: nathan on 21 January, 2002, 06:57:04 pm
Scojo I'm none the wiser, I'm afraid.

What do you mean by "bbsessive personality disorder", isn't that when people have to keep checking they've turned the cooker off? Who has the disorder in Zenith and who has it in Storming Heaven?

What does "seeking the need" mean?

I'm not being picky, I really want to understand, because as far as I can tell the only similarity between the two strips is they have superheroes in them.

N
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: Thread Zero on 21 January, 2002, 06:58:44 pm
I agree Matt. I like S H so far.
I was just giving a reason why some people are comparing it to Zenith. 99% of 2k is superhero free!

Balls Brothers!!!!!!!
What a load of balls you could say.

scojo
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: Thread Zero on 21 January, 2002, 07:04:46 pm
Oh dear,

I was being flippant.

(Some people!:O)

Zenith was about a reluctant superhero of the 1980's who was forced to battle a (sort of) reanimated evil superhero from the 1940's.

Further books introduced more backstory, superheroes, Zenith's family etc.

I recommend you purchase Books 1-4 of Mr Z. It was one of 2k's best sagas.

Well I liked it!

scojo

Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: Tu-plang on 21 January, 2002, 07:29:22 pm
"and men with unfashionably long facial hair."

just don't say that around half the 2000ad creators.

in storming heaven's defence:

for a superhero storyline, the backstory is much more impressive than the usual DC/Marvel:

"man from planet ZX9-KRAPPY:228 comes to earth with his amazing powers and dresses in bondage gear."

but didn't zenith have a cool backstory too?  i can't remember.

one thing that could be done better in SH is the characterization. from the first 2 parts i've read, i can't really see any memorable characters.  this has been lacking in toothy a lot lately.  stuff like killer and carver hale could have been good if they'd een fleshed out a bit so the characters could develop.  they seemed to be all over in 7 episodes or so, tharg should let the normal length for something like that be about 15 episodes.
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: W. R. Logan on 21 January, 2002, 07:36:12 pm
>Everyone please ignore me.

Always do.

La PLaca Rifa,
W. R, Logan.

Link: The Class Of '79

Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: paulvonscott on 21 January, 2002, 09:18:29 pm
I think the similarity to Zenith lies in the sixties Zenith timeline and the superhero group Cloud Nine, with Mandala et al.  That was basically a psychadelic superhero group.  As there have only been two superhero strips in 2000AD and both have featured some similar ideas, comparison is going to happen.

The story could very easily have been a Zenith 60's story with very little effort.  With the psychadelic heroes opening doors to dimensions and letting bad things through and encountering a Charles Mansion style superhero.

That isn't to say anything has been stolen, borrowed or cadged, I don't believe it has, but the similarity is there.

My main problem with Storming Heaven is that there are no characters in it.  You don't have any contact with it, it just sort of passes you by.  I don't dislike it at all I'm just not very involved with it.

Well, there will always be people who like somthing and don't like somthing.  I've noticed a lot of the strips seem to settle out at around 7 in the votes, either just above or below.
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: fraston on 21 January, 2002, 09:42:12 pm
should point out here that Zenith was superheroes and Cthulu, Storming heaven is super hippies. big difference as far as i can see.

and this one's in colour.
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: Thread Zero on 21 January, 2002, 09:49:12 pm
Ah but the last book of Zenith was in colour!

And Grant Morrison was under the influence of some illegal substance when he wrote it!

Or so Tharg told me.

scott the pedantic one
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: Thread Zero on 21 January, 2002, 09:52:06 pm
Oh stop moaning everyone.

Moan moan moan!

Spread Tharg love to all.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

By the way my name is scojo. Not Scott.

Hee hee.
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: nathan on 21 January, 2002, 10:12:50 pm
You fibber, Scott ;-)

I wasn't moaning, I just didn't understand how something as fresh and exciting as Storming Heaven could be called a "watered-down" version of the greatly over-rated Zenith. I can see now there is a _superficial_ similarity but to say exactly how tenuous the link is  I'd have to reread Zenith and that ain't going to happen!

N
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: paulvonscott on 21 January, 2002, 10:22:44 pm
Some people say why they like stuff, some people say why they don't and a better understanding is ahd by all.  I don't expect any of my views to ever change someones mind.I thought the whole point of forums was the moaning :)  

Oh and don't forget the bitching, and slagging off, that's usually a big part of it too :)

The similarities are just in the concepts Nathan, I read Storming Heaven and it reminded me of the 60's Zenuth stuff, that's all.

And Scojo, how dare you complain about the moaning, your ramblings about the movie have driven me into my local insane asylum.  Mind you there is this guy, with a good idea for a Dredd screenplay...

Just kidding:)

Nurse, can I have the sedative now please!
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: Trough on 21 January, 2002, 10:29:34 pm
Couldn't agree more, Mr PVS.  I thought I was the only one here thinking that Storming Heaven is characterless and uninvolving.

Still not "getting" Frazer Irvine's art, either.  Like with Henry Flint, I think it LOOKS great, but is sometimes hard to follow - which, in my book, does not make good storytelling.

Grump, whinge, whine etc.

Trough, having a bad Monday
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: JamieB on 21 January, 2002, 11:19:42 pm
"What superhero comic isn't about saving the world or destroying it?"

Powers and X-Force, to name two.

*J*
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: Leigh S on 21 January, 2002, 11:25:41 pm
The problem with SH is that too much happens in explanatory boxes and there's too little dialogue and interaction between the characters (besides two episodes of people whining on about where Dr Trips is!).  This is 'tell' not 'show', which makes for a dull comic strip IMO  - it should be the other way around.

Too much exposition and too little plot (bad guys attack good guys).  The Sixties setting should present more interesting scenarios than this - Vietnam, the rise of the counterculture, revolution in the air, the emerging musical superstars (Beatles/Byrds/The Who etc.) who in their own way were very much like superhero teams....  instead we get satanic charlie Manson vs angelic hippy.

The art is tops though.
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: Matt on 21 January, 2002, 11:30:08 pm
Okay, put it another way, what superhero comic isn't about good guys in tights fighting bad guys in tights? I was simply trying to suggest that Stormin Heaven had a familiar feel to it because it operated within the superhero genre and not because it was unoriginal (i.e. based on Zenith)

MATT
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: Thread Zero on 22 January, 2002, 03:13:10 am
Superman does his own ironing - the mini series - didn't either.

scojo who has all 4 issues of that
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: 2000AD Online on 22 January, 2002, 10:10:18 am
Don`t you mean `constructive criticism`?  Anyway, I did say I liked the art.
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: 2000AD Online on 22 January, 2002, 10:18:46 am
Storming Heaven has oblique drug references, the way the American Air Force is `obliquely` bombing Afghanistan.  SH doesn`t do all those things, it just alludes to them in a pompous way.

yours opinionatedly,


Floyd
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: O Lucky Stevie! on 22 January, 2002, 03:51:27 pm
>The similarities are just in the concepts Nathan, I read Storming Heaven and it reminded me of the 60's Zenuth stuff, that's all.

no doubt because both zenith & storming heaven are referencing the same ken kesey/robert anton wilson source material.

as i've noted elsewhere on this board, grant morrison has explored the same themes in the flex mentallo mini series for vertigo (quite possibly the best super hero comic i have ever read; easily the best thing published in the genre since watchmen) whilst manson is touched upon in his bible john from crisis.

oh, & i actually quite enjoyed balls brothers. the interplay between the two of them was genuinely "brotherish", & wagner's inspired silliness was a breath of fress air amongst the sufeit of superteams which sprang up in the wake of dc's success with the morrison penned jla.

i've wet my knickers!
steven l'enfant terrible
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: JamieB on 22 January, 2002, 08:08:30 pm
It is possible to do original things while notionally remaining within the superhero genre - Powers is effectively a crime procedural with superheroes chucked in, Top 10 is similar if more in-jokey, Planetary has superheroes but reads more like an exploration of the last century's popular culture. Noble Causes is, apparently, going to be a soap opera (a la Eastenders, rather than most modern superhero books, which are effectively soap opera in any case).

The reason people see similarities between SH and Zenith is because there are some - teams of super-hippies (the original Zenith superteam's evolution into Cloud 9), some character names (Dr. Beat / Brother Beat). SH, however, doesn't focus on one hero (as yet) and, of course, has the 60s as its milieu, rather than the 80s.

SH isn't exactly a radical re-invention of the form, but neither is it a rehash of the ideas we saw in Zenith (which, in itself, was a development of GM's work in Zoids*, and continued in things like Animal Man, Doom Patrol and - most obviously - The Invisibles).

* Which, I believe, predates Zenith - feel free to naysay me if I'm wrong.

The one thing about SH which bugs the hell out of me is the inconsistency from prog to prog in character names - Adam Laar has been Lar and (I believe) Lars thus far - which I assume is a cock-up rather than deliberate.

That said, the artwork is gorgeous. And the story itself is, at the very least, an interesting move away from future-oriented SF. Even if you dislike it, you gotta admit, running a new strip of this kind bodes well for the future of 2000AD and Rebellion's time in charge. Well, I think so, anyway.

*J*
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: turnhill on 23 January, 2002, 11:20:54 pm
storming heaven has to be one of the biggest piles of anal crap that has ever made it's way onto the hallowed pages of 2000ad.all this pseudo-60'2 hippy arty wanky shit.i don't understand how 2000ad looked as though it was finally going along the right track only to let this piece of uninspired piss poor garbage in.it reminds me of when 2000ad finally went up it's own arse sometime back in the late 80s when it got "cool" and "alternative" and "arty".fuck that.next,you'll tell us simon bisley and john hickelton are doing the art on some new stories.remember those wankers?splotchy,crappy art
making it impossiblt to follow stories.while the art in storming heaven is passable,the story itself is pure bollocks.pull it now!
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: Thread Zero on 24 January, 2002, 04:48:11 am
Can I copy this and email it to Gordon Rennie?

Hee hee!

scojo the evil
Title: Re: Storming Heaven
Post by: paulvonscott on 24 January, 2002, 06:35:37 am
And the controversy rages on...

I would just like to say that it wouldn't have looked out of place in Crisis.

I will say no more.

Goodnight All.