The Political Thread

[TordelBack]

VICTORY! After 35 years of utter defeat. Reminder to never give up, Remainers - good always triumphs, it's just a matter of time.

Now we just have to get the 'No' side to continue to campaign for all those fabulous maternity and childcare supports that they were so keen on the State providing.

[IndigoPrime]

good always triumphs, it's just a matter of time

I do hope so. My fear is we just don't have any time. Brexiters no longer care about concessions. It's all bluster to get them over the finish line next March. That's their prize, after which point the anti-EU ferocity will be ramped up to breaking point. (At that point, since we'll be out, we'll hear a lot of "rule taker" and "vassal state" rubbish, and people who'd previously advocated Norway+ will be silent or retract. Politically, rejoining won't be something even on the radar for probably 20+ years.)

[The Legendary Shark]

I'm not sure good actually can triumph when, at (s)election time, many people vote for the lesser of two evils.

[TordelBack]

It's the ultimate consequence of a utilitarian universe: what's good is what's right; what's right is what works. If something doesn't work, it cannot stand for long. So good will always win, eventually.

The problem is the horrors of the interim - which is also the problem with your own superlocal community-based anarchytopia: not necessarily the end itself, which will either work or it won't, but the nature of the road that leads there.

[JayzusB.Christ]

Strangely, the teenage me, had there been a referendum back then, would have voted no.  Sorry, I knew no better: I grew up in 80s rural Ireland and hadn't a clue. (In my defence, I was always pro-gay-marriage and gave up the whole Catholic thing in my mid-teens.)
I'm proud to say I've come on a bit since then, and am delighted with this result.  I do, however, feel some sympathy for elderly people who honestly believe that the country has just chosen to legalise murder.  They are very misguided of course, but it's not entirely their fault.
That said, the Iona Group are the nastiest strain of rabid bone-rattlers this country has to offer, and i am quite enjoying the schadenfreude of watching them struggle to keep hold of a country that has very much wriggled out of their clammy grip.

[Hawkmumbler]

I'm not sure good actually can triumph when, at (s)election time, many people vote for the lesser of two evils.

It's not particularly relevant in this instance though, is it? A step closer to society reclamation of womns body autonomy and womens rights is only a step forward for good.

[The Legendary Shark]

What is good and right, in my own view, does not come from government or ministers - it comes from people. It makes me sad that some people seem to think that what is good and right needs to be imposed from above - by people who don't generally give a shit unless it means votes.

I don't want to violate anyone's body, and I believe most people feel similarly, and I don't need anyone to impose that on me - especially not people who believe they have the right to instigate violence against anyone they wish for money, resources or power.

I realise that my views are unpopular and that society is not going to evolve overnight, or even over the next few generations, but I think that we need to start at least thinking about where goodness and rights come from - which is the same place as evil and oppression come from. In either case, it's not government.

Maybe the Irish vote is a step in the right direction, but I don't think so. If government can do the right thing today then that's fine but, while it has the perceived power to make such decisions, and we allow and support it, it can just as easily reverse that decision or make an even worse one tomorrow.

[Hawkmumbler]

Oh Sharky, I love ya baby 'offers a Tootsie Pop' but sometimes you can't see the forrest for trees.

Systemic mysogyny runs much deeper than the government.

[JayzusB.Christ]

Maybe the Irish vote is a step in the right direction, but I don't think so. If government can do the right thing today then that's fine but, while it has the perceived power to make such decisions....

It was a referendum. It was our decision.  The referendum was a result of lobbying by the people, not a whim of the government.  But in any case, it's very much a step in the right direction. 

[TordelBack]

Indeed. The referendum was a specific request of a Citizens' Assembly, which interestingly approved the proposal by almost exactly the same 2:1 split as the real referendum. And the beauty of a binding referendum on a written constitution is that you can see exactly the wording you're voting for, stripped of spin. About as real an example of democracy as you could ask for.

[The Legendary Shark]

What if the vote had gone the other way? Would people now be shrugging their shoulders and bemoaning the fact that misogyny is okay or even to be encouraged? Of course not. (Though some might, I fear.)

I know, as many others do, that treating anyone badly simply because of who they are is wrong. Asking a small group of rulers who habitually treat everyone badly to ban treating a section of the populace badly seems illogical to me.

Legislation is fine as a general guide but it is not Law. The Golden Rule applies in all cases - this is what must be reinforced through all strata of society. It will take longer this way, admittedly, but will be stronger for it in the end. Government's "magic wand" is an illusion, real and significant change comes through widespread and protracted hard work.

This referendum may make people feel proud and happy but it is only one small aspect of the overall problem and not a solution. There is still a long way to go and the ultimate solution is to be found only in how we act as individuals. The way I treat people is my responsibility and mine alone.

[IndigoPrime]

A general guide lets people continue on with how things were, with women dying due to ideology. I don't want that future.

[The Legendary Shark]

Who does?

One of the problems with legeslative law is that, in court, arguments devolve from what actually happened to whom and the damage done down to arguments over the interpretation of words and looking for loopholes. Legislation and justice are, at this fundamental level, not the same thing at all. There's nothing to stop a court from considering legislation alongside common law, case law and tradition to arrive at a just conclusion but relying entirely on this one aspect is foolish, counterproductive and dangerous.

[JayzusB.Christ]

I can't say I don't dream of an anarchist society where everyone is enlightened enough to respect one another and do the right thing all the time (though the one I dream of is fundamentally different from your utopia, Sharky). 

But I live in a real country with real people, and huge proportions of those real people were being denied human rights.  This referendum (and the gay marriage one of a few years ago) gave us a chance to give them those rights. We were successful. Ireland is more free than it was, and saying 'I'm not taking part in any referendum because there shouldn't be a state to organise one' achieves precisely fuck all.

Significant change has come about - we're far from a utopia, but we're a hell of a lot better off than we were a few years ago - and it has happened through hard work. 

[The Legendary Shark]

I understand, JBC, and maybe forcing government to act better is one way forward but another, in my view more important way, is to learn how to take more responsibility for ourselves. There's no quick and easy way on any path but I'm willing to concede that improving the state is probably a valid way of encouraging statists to improve along with it. I think that we must begin by trying to identify the core problems we all face and only then begin exploring possible solutions. Leaving these explorations and solutions to a small ruling class is not the answer now, never was in the past and never will be in the future. We are on that path already. We began by being ruled by a god or gods, moved on to being ruled by god kings, then kings representing god, then governments representing kings and now we're ruled by governments representing "the common good" (which is whatever the government decides it is). Power is shifting all the time from the divine to the individual, due in most part to individuals recognising injustices and bringing pressure to bear on the rulers. If individuals can do this - and they have been doing it for centuries - then there is every possibility that we can move, eventually, into a self-governing society. We need to learn how to do this and to have faith in ourselves and each other. 

I'm not against rules but I am against rulers.