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The Political Thread

Started by The Legendary Shark, 09 April, 2010, 03:59:03 PM

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House of Usher

Not where economics is concerned. It's a question of theory into practice. You can't presume a positivistic cause-and-effect relationship between two variables in economics because there are many, many more variables, and there isn't perfect agreement on how they fit together.

Economic policy is as much driven by political ideology as it is by scientific objectivity.
STRIKE !!!

Peter Wolf

When talking about and explaining the causes and the effects of the current economic crisis its very clear especially if you factor in criminality and corruption.


So if either yourself or Robin are suggesting that the causes of the current economic crisis havent been isolated or narrowed down to very specific factors then that completely ridiculous.

I am not sure i see any point in continuing to discuss this topic as its unproductive.

Worthing Bazaar - A fete worse than death

House of Usher

#572
Quote from: Peter Wolf on 08 May, 2010, 10:58:58 PM
I am not sure i see any point in continuing to discuss this topic as its unproductive

Ok, fine. I find economics boring anyway. If the causes of the economic crisis have been isolated, and they are criminality and corruption, then Gordon Brown's failure is in allowing criminality and corruption on a global scale to go on instead of putting a stop to them as a better man would have done.
STRIKE !!!

vzzbux

The Tories would have gone into Iraq and Afghanistan but they weren't the ones that did. Labour fucked up plenty of times constantly since they have been in power. Like the Conservatives did last time they were in, Labour have gone stagnant and are just too cock sure of themselves. I voted Tory just because I am sick at the way the country is being ran at the moment and it is good to have a change every now and again. To have the same party in over and over again just makes them think they can do what they want and not give a shit about the great unwashed. Complacency is never a good thing.

This is now the Tories turn to fuck up.

Perhaps have a similar way the Americans run their leaders. Any one person is allowed only two terms in office. Thatcher was in way too long, likewise Blair.

That is all




VNP
Drokking since 1972

Peace is a lie, there's only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.

Jim_Campbell

Quote from: vzzbux on 08 May, 2010, 11:28:08 PM
This is now the Tories turn to fuck up.

Kiss the BBC goodbye, then.

Cheers

Jim
Stupidly Busy Letterer: Samples. | Blog
Less-Awesome-Artist: Scribbles.

Matt Timson

Quote from: Robin Low on 08 May, 2010, 05:56:26 PM
Quote from: Peter Wolf on 08 May, 2010, 03:37:32 PM
Personally i think what Brown and Blair have done to this country is totally unforgivable and for a country to be virtually bankrupt after 12 years of economic growth regardless of how that came about

So what should Brown have done? What have other countries like ours with economies that are heavily reliant on the financial services industry done that have proved more effective? What should have been done about banks that were collapsing?

Quotebut personally i think certain political parties just have a total misunderstanding of economics.

You mean ones you don't agree with? Seems to me that even experienced economists can't agree, so how you can expect politicians to understand or to presume that you understand is beyond me.

Whether it's politicans or the public, I see a lot of criticism of Brown, but little in the way of practical alternatives that are supported by convincing evidence in their favour.

I really don't like politicians in general, so I've no particular liking for Brown. However, as far as I can tell he gets the blame because of his position, not because he's actually directly responsible for anything particularly outrageous. The current problems can be laid at the doors of many people and organisations, in many countries, and over many years - it's far too easy and far too lazy to blame one prominent individual.


Regards

Robin

Apart from selling our gold reserves and plundering the pension pot.  Nice one, Gordon!
Pffft...

Jim_Campbell

Quote from: Matt Timson on 08 May, 2010, 11:45:47 PM
Apart from selling our gold reserves

Now, that was quite brain-fuckingly stupid.

Cheers

Jim
Stupidly Busy Letterer: Samples. | Blog
Less-Awesome-Artist: Scribbles.

Christov

Protests for electoral reform and against Sky News on the same day?

Have I died and gone to angry young man heaven?

vzzbux

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 08 May, 2010, 11:42:21 PM
Quote from: vzzbux on 08 May, 2010, 11:28:08 PM
This is now the Tories turn to fuck up.

Kiss the BBC goodbye, then.

Cheers

Jim

Rather the BBC than half the gold reserves.







V
Drokking since 1972

Peace is a lie, there's only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.

Jim_Campbell

Quote from: vzzbux on 09 May, 2010, 12:19:16 AM
Rather the BBC than half the gold reserves.

The gold reserves are already gone. How does sacrificing the BBC on the altar of market forces and the Tories' pandering to Murdoch have any bearing on that fact?

Cheers

Jim


Stupidly Busy Letterer: Samples. | Blog
Less-Awesome-Artist: Scribbles.

Peter Wolf

Quote from: House of Usher on 08 May, 2010, 11:07:16 PM
Quote from: Peter Wolf on 08 May, 2010, 10:58:58 PM
I am not sure i see any point in continuing to discuss this topic as its unproductive

Ok, fine. I find economics boring anyway. If the causes of the economic crisis have been isolated, and they are criminality and corruption, then Gordon Brown's failure is in allowing criminality and corruption on a global scale to go on instead of putting a stop to them as a better man would have done.

I say this because my comments are totally disregarded and why ? well its because others dont like them or understand them and everything i type is somehow my own subjective opinion when its not as i am just telling it like it is regardless of what i think or what my opinion is.

So yes i find it unproductive.



The cause of the economic collapse in Greece has been directly attributed to the activities of the then Greek govt who colluded with Goldman Sachs to hide the then Greek debt and Credit Default Swaps.This is not the only contributory factor involved.The present Greek govt admit this themselves.

Wether i agree with this or not is irrelevent.

So yes the fact that i am having to constantly stress that what i am saying is beyond what i personally agree with other than it being fact like the above is very tiring and unproductive.Get over the fact that its me pointing this out and go look it all up yourself.The infromation is there for everyone if they want it.

Quote from: Robin Low on 08 May, 2010, 05:56:26 PM
The current problems can be laid at the doors of many people and organisations, in many countries, and over many years - it's far too easy and far too lazy to blame one prominent individual.


Regards

Robin

This comment is very true but by default GB has to be held accountable or blamed at least in part but quite honestly i find this kind of blame game unproductive because it diverts attention away from the real cause of it because like i said earlier this is all much bigger than GB.GB was just doing his job and doing what he was told to do in my opinion.

How complicit or culpable GB is in all of this debacle would be something for an independent impartial wider inquiry/investigation and perhaps even a criminal court to decide in the long term and its the same for Tony Blair and Iraq.If this happened then Tony Blair and Gordon Brown would not be found to be exclusively to blame.
Worthing Bazaar - A fete worse than death

vzzbux

TBH losing the BBC wouldn't bother me that much.
But it's not necessary losing the BBC but changing how its run. I don't watch it that much or TV in general.






V
Drokking since 1972

Peace is a lie, there's only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.

Robin Low

#582
I spent over an hour replying to this last night, then posted only to discover the connection had gone tits up and I lost everything. Some of you may have heard my cry of anguish.


Quote from: COMMANDO FORCES on 08 May, 2010, 08:39:34 PM
All of his mistakes will never touch the people in power, with money! It's going to be you and me who have a hard future.

That always has and always will be the case.

QuoteSelling 60% of the country's gold and letting every Fucker know in advance, which meant the price dropped to a 20 year low. Some place the loss to the treasury between 2 & 5 Billion pounds.

Is that a loss per year or a one-off? If it's a one-off loss, it's bordering on the irrelevant, shocking though it may seem. The NHS alone cost £94 billion in 2008/9.


QuoteRemember the pension fiasco, when his own people told him not to do it and he just went ahead and changed the tax system (this hit the poor more than the rich - treasury officials reported). This will hit everyone with a pension, especially the POOR.

I admit I don't know much about this one - I'll ask my folks how they've been affected.


QuoteHere's a little bit about me so you know where I'm coming from.

Here's a little about me, because I like talking about myself:

My dad was a sales rep and my mum was a nurse. Dad was made redundant and took early retirement, mum only retired last year. Dad now does voluntary driving for the ambulance service, mum does voluntary work for the MS society.

Mum worked nights for decades and wore the same few dresses until the armpits wore out, and then had to keep wearing them. They spent all their money putting my brother and I through private education after the Tories closed down the local grammar school.

I have missed the odd-day from work, but not for years. After starting teacher training following two years unemployment I had appendicitits and glandular fever one on top of the other, and had to go back living with my folks for a year, got no benefits, and as a result of this won't be getting a full state pension.

Similarly, I've paid into my work pension schemes, but another two years at univeristy getting another degree resulted in missing more pension contributions, so even less of a state pension for me.

I've never been in debt or overdrawn, despite six years at university.

I've never owned a credit card.

I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't have a car or mobile phone - it staggers me how much money people are willing to waste on this stuff.

I don't have kids - I don't think I can afford them.

I'm paid well enough, currently on 24,000. My brother, with a tiny fraction of the qualifications I have and working the private sector as a machinist earns more.

I hate my job. I keep doing it because it's in the public sector and it matters. I live with the constant knowledge that if I fuck up, worst case scenario is that people die - my colleagues might say I'm being melodramatic, but in truth I don't they don't think about the implications a lot of the time.

Next five years, well, who knows if I'll have a job. The public sector is not safe. I don't blame any government - I blame the general public who demand more and more and more, without even attempting to find out how much services cost and refuse to vote for governments with open tax policies.


QuoteAlso, I knew that because of all the bad lending by irresponsible greedy people to greedy irresponsible people would bite us on the arse one day and I'm not an economist!

I'd worked that out, too, but I blame the people who decided to borrow. I recieved all the offers of credit cards and ignored them, even at times when I had nothing. The government could have stepped in and controlled the banks, I suppose, but I can see all the headlines and forums crying 'nanny state!' if it had.


QuoteBy the way, the government pay out more in benefits than they take in at the moment, that was from a BBC programme, we can't go on like this!

I agree. Increase taxes or kick people off benefits? Which one is going to get us elected?

QuoteHere are a few ways I would improve this Great Country of ours!

All sports centres, youth clubs, swimming pools, etc to be paid for out of taxes. You can use your local ones free (may have to pay to use out of your area ones).

What will you say to all the people who say these things are non-essential services, they're a waste of money that could be put into education, road-building, the NHS and so on? Those who don't want to use such services - I loathe exercise and never needed a youth club to keep me on the straight-and-narrow after school.


QuoteAll the unemployed to be paid a certain wage and have to do charitable work, help the aged, clean the beaches, community stuff, etc.... (I suppose some people will moan that they have to work for the dole, well I'd change the bloody name then).

Fine. You realise this will require a massive reorganisation of the employment services, liaising with thousands of outside organisations, medical services to properly assess claimants and work, police checks for those working with the vulnerable. A huge increase in cost.

QuoteAll buses and trains in the country are free, paid for by taxes again. More people would bloody use them then, if they knew that their taxes paid for them and you could just jump on and off with no tickets.

That's great - I don't drive and rely heavily (though not entirely) on public transport. However, I've argued with enough people to know how much others hate travelling alongside strangers, crammed in, unable to smoke and use their mobiles if they want to, aren't free to come and go at the time of their choosing, having to wait - the complaints are endless.

If we really want to help people, help society, and save millions if not billions every single year then we should ban alcohol and smoking, but I think we know what trying that would get us.

QuoteThere we go, Tory me (who is the only person on here who can prove the way he voted, I did put my reason down for voting Liberal this time) believes in paying for that lot to benefit everyone in this country.

As I said way back, I'm not interested in knowing who you or anyone else voted for. And incidentally, a photo of a voting slip proves nothing - did we see it go into a box? I am not, repreat not, saying it didn't, just pointing out how easy it is to take something at face value.

QuoteSometimes you have to break the mould and start again. The only problem with my idea is that the rich bods who own all the above would not be able to fleece everyone anymore and all parties wouldn't allow that.

I place blame for the problem on the ignorance and selfishness of the general public. Blaming everything on the rich or on governments is so, so easy - I did it myself for years - but when it comes down to it most people vote for themselves, not for society. I think that's the root of the problem.


Regards

Robin

Robin Low

Quote from: Robin Low on 09 May, 2010, 10:13:23 AMHere's a little about me, because I like talking about myself:

I forgot to mention that I'm currently growing a goatee. There's a depressing amount of white in it.

Regards

Robin

Colin MacNeil

Quote from: Robin Low on 09 May, 2010, 10:13:23 AM


I place blame for the problem on the ignorance and selfishness of the general public. Blaming everything on the rich or on governments is so, so easy - I did it myself for years - but when it comes down to it most people vote for themselves, not for society. I think that's the root of the problem.


Quite right Robin. The problem being, when did you last see turkey's voting for christmas? Oh yes, Brighton wasn't it? They voted green!
Maybe there's hope yet. :)

Quote from: Robin Low on 09 May, 2010, 10:40:28 AM

I forgot to mention that I'm currently growing a goatee. There's a depressing amount of white in it.

Get used to it! It's only going to get worse. :D