Everything comes back after 20 years: The Prog's New Dark Age

[JOE SOAP]

I'm curious about what was the 2000 AD 'dark age' anyway? I'm assuming roughly the period between Necropolis/Death of Johnny Alpha/1990ish to Rebellion buying 2000 AD? Or is more specific then that?

It's that nebulous time for first generation readers between becoming interested in things other than 2000AD -coincident with first generation creators reaching middle-age- and eventually wondering why they gave it up in the first place.

[Aaron A Aardvark]

I'm curious about what was the 2000 AD 'dark age' anyway? I'm assuming roughly the period between Necropolis/Death of Johnny Alpha/1990ish to Rebellion buying 2000 AD? Or is more specific then that?

For me it's very specifically the time between Necropolis and The Pit.

[TordelBack]

Like the real European Dark Ages, there wasn't really any such thing.  Even after Roman rule collapsed across western Europe, the Eastern Empire endured for another thousand years, Moorish architecture and learning flourished across Iberia, zoomorphic art and exquisite interlace exploded from centres of literacy and scholarship in the north-west etc.  In 2000AD terms, that's: Button Man, The Pit, Nikolai Dante, Zenith Book IV, Sinister Dexter, Canon Fodder (or whatever you're having yourself), Vector 13, Luke Kirby etc.

Admittedly much was destroyed in the upheaval and incursions from the Millars, Fleishers, Steelgraves and the like, but at the same time new developments took hold, and when the Renaissance finally came, it was into a context of already diverse and vibrant indigenous cultures.

[ZenArcade]

For me, it was from about prog 700'S until the 950's when I gave up for about 17 years.  It was week after week of utter garbage, interspersed with the very odd gem eg Firekind (and the sequencing on that classic was screwed up).
The last few months have been a struggle prog-wise, some weeks I'm just buying it and giving it a cursory read. In fairness, it's not at the (say) early 800 - 900's level of utter, disheartning tedium just yet to be fair.
Z

[IndigoPrime]

For me it's very specifically the time between Necropolis and The Pit.

I think that's fair, although to my mind it took a bit longer for the rot to set in. The early 700s were still pretty strong, for example. It's worth noting there was often something to read during those days, but quite often the Prog was propped up by John Smith doing something interesting.

Looking at Barney, it's interesting to see how things start to slip:

708: Hewlingan's Haircut is replaced by the dire Junker. During this general period, Judge Anderson remains a strong character (her subsequent shift to the Meg really hurt 2000 AD), and Rogue Trooper has already given up the goodwill from the War Machine reboot. Still, things aren't outright bad at this point.

723: Mark Millar gets his hands on Robo-Hunter. That issue also has 'boring Rogue' (although the much worse Junker replaces it next issue), and – IMO – the iffy (if inoffensive) Nemesis & Deadlock. Bix Barton's good, though, and there's a Wagner Dredd. The underrated Tao De Moto also debuts.

735: A good example of Smith lifting the Prog. Killing Time debuts, and is alongside Return of the King (hrmmm Dredd), boring Rogue, Travels with Muh Shrink (nice art, but not Wagner's best), the very ordinary Below Zero, and Tao De Moto.

As the 1990s progress, though, you see a lot of stuff that is just puzzling. Dead Meat. The risible Harlem Heroes reboot somehow gets recommissioned. Trash. The Clown. Now and again, we get a Button Man, but it sits in the same pages as Kola Kommandos.

Prog 792: Zenith returns (hurrah!), but sits alongside Dragon Tales (wut?), Judgement Day (nope), Kola Kommandos, and Millar doing his best to ensure no-one ever wants to read Robo-Hunter again, by shitting all over Verdus.

In the 800s, 2000 AD properly starts to go off the boil. There are good bits (Luke Kirby) but also the atrocious Wireheads. If you don't like Finn and Ennis Dredd, the ratio of good to bad at this point is probably making you wonder when things will pick up. At which point, Garth Ennis turns the Gronk into an action hero, and your head starts repeatedly hitting the desk.

842 delivers the Morrison/Millar Prog takeover. Big Dave appears. I hated it, and still do. Judge Dredd is now a parody, with inferno. Maniac 5 look good, but is pretty boring. Really & Truly has Hughes on art, but didn't click with me. Slaughterbowl... even that's not Smith's best. In general, it feels like Dredd's had a lobotomy. 2000 AD too. Whereas in the 300s, 2000 AD was designed for children, but written in a manner that didn't talk down to them and made the assumption they could deal with adult themes, 2000 AD now feels juvenile, like a teenager yelling TITS SHIT FUCK WANK at passers-by.

In the 850s, we're 'treated' to The Mean Arena, and a Dredd strip in Egypt that's so culturally insensitive, it makes Wagner's Japanese Dredd excursions look positively even-handed. Eventually, the Prog limps through Mother Earth, some of the worse Millar Dredds imaginable, and 'waste of Shaky Kane' Soul Gun Warrior, before crapping out Prog 878, which sums the state of the Prog up perfectly: Dinosty (Mills misfire); Dredd: Sugar Beat (one of the worst Dredds, during a period where the character couldn't break relied upon); Rogue Trooper: Scavenger of Souls (half-arsed attempt to mash together Fr1day and Rogue Trooper concepts); Grudgefather (Mark Millar shit); Tyranny Rex (bonkers Smith).

For me, this was one good but weird strip, one readable one, and three piles of tosh. That balance – one or two not-bad strips – was fairly typical during this era. These days, it's – for me – very rare for 2000 AD to have a hit rate that low.

Still, it couldn't get worse... expect it did. 883: The execrable and wantonly sexist Babe Race 2000 (Millar); The Clown Book 2 (two books too many); Dredd in Manchu Candidate (which, fortunately, didn't go any further); Grudgefather; Millar Robo-Hunter. That's zero out of five for me.

One of the worst Progs ever – can anyone find one that's even worse?

[Richard]

there wasn't really any such thing.

Oh yes there was. Indigo Prime has explained why far more eloquently and persuasively than I can — but so have you, because half of the examples you've given for why the prog was good in that era actually fall before of after that era! 2000AD was much better by the time (or because) Dante, Sin-Dex and The Pit started.

Some people have criticised the 700s, which does include Zenith IV and Luke Kirby, but I think there are plenty of strong stories in that period (so to that extent I agree with you). It didn't get really bad until the Summer Offensive. Up until then occasional misfires like Trash, Dead Meat and new Robo-Hunter where outnumbered by some excellent stories, like Firekind. It went really downhill in 1993 until the late 900s, when for every Button Man II there were ten terrible strips, like Wireheads.

[TordelBack]

there wasn't really any such thing.

Oh yes there was.

Well, I was being more than a wee bit playful there at the expense of right-on revisionism, and I quite deliberately didn't actually refer to any particular period for that reason.  Obviously things did go to shit (and I didn't stick around to watch it for long - for me it was the 850s that were the breaking point, and specifically Book of the Dead), but my point, if I had one other than pure devilment, was that within periods of supposed cultural decline, room is created for new local developments as good as anything that came before.  And I stand by that bit, at least.

[Fungus]

Ah, 700-950. Literally the 5 year desert of progs I waded through a couple of years back.Felt I should, at some early point I gave up the ghost and had stopped reading. Kept buying, the force was strong.

What a chore. Not a fan of Smith's writing for the most part, I'd find nothing to commend prog after prog... Silo wasn't great but feels like literature in that company. Wireheads is notable for not even being read. Bizarre stuff.

Currently skimming half the current prog too, a bad sign.

[Richard]

Ah, right. I read that a bit literally.

[IndigoPrime]

Not a fan of Smith's writing for the most part

Good grief. That era of 2000 AD must have been painful for you then.

Silo wasn't great but feels like literature in that company.

One of Millar's best scripts for 2000 AD (although: hello, Die Hard!), although that's still a bit like saying you prefer stubbing your toe to being punched in the face.

[Aaron A Aardvark]

Still, it couldn't get worse... expect it did. 883: The execrable and wantonly sexist Babe Race 2000 (Millar); The Clown Book 2 (two books too many); Dredd in Manchu Candidate (which, fortunately, didn't go any further); Grudgefather; Millar Robo-Hunter. That's zero out of five for me.

One of the worst Progs ever – can anyone find one that's even worse?

Drokk me, that's quite a line up. All of them would be comfotably the worst story in the current Prog.

[Colin YNWA]

In my re-read I'm coming up soon to the period that's widely regarded as the nadir, though I don't remember things really being that bad until much later that the 750s but I'm watching with great interest to see what happens. Certainly even in the late 600s there are signs of the rot having set in. In part due to the expansion of content and colour at a time when there seems to be a changing of the guard in terms of creators. This sees any number of great stories being rushed out top quickly and then going into hiatous and the stuff used to fill the gaps just not being of the same quality.

That said unlike Fungus I remember there always being something of merit.

The other interesting question, one which Tordelback kind of alludes to is the nature of the recovery as its far from a smooth ride and in my head at times is almost as bad, or even worse at the percieved problem patch. Still going to be fascinating having another look.

[ZenArcade]

"One of the worst Progs ever – can anyone find one that's even worse?"

I think there was about 4 months around 830 - 50 which was equally soul crushing.  Z

[Proudhuff]

Ah, 700-950. Literally the 5 year desert of progs I waded through a couple of years back.Felt I should, at some early point I gave up the ghost and had stopped reading. Kept buying, the force was strong.

What a chore. Not a fan of Smith's writing for the most part, I'd find nothing to commend prog after prog... Silo wasn't great but feels like literature in that company. Wireheads is notable for not even being read. Bizarre stuff.

Currently skimming half the current prog too, a bad sign.

This for me^^^
TB's take that JSmith saves the day (paraphrasing!) doesn't apply for me or Fungus, and the muddy colours of that era didn't help...

[TordelBack]

TB's take that JSmith saves the day (paraphrasing!) doesn't apply for me or Fungus...

That'd be indigo Prime's take,  not mine: I truly love John Smith's work, but in the period in question I found it pretty uneven,  and other than Firekind and Slaughter Bowl,  not nearly enough to lift overall proceedings to an acceptable level.