The Political Thread

[paddykafka]

This reminds me of the scene in Alien when [spoiler]robot Ash starts leaking.

"A Robot! Giulani's a goddamn Robot!"[/spoiler]

https://9gag.com/gag/aqnEBqj

[von Boom]

This reminds me of the scene in Alien when [spoiler]robot Ash starts leaking.

"A Robot! Giulani's a goddamn Robot!"[/spoiler]

https://9gag.com/gag/aqnEBqj

[IndigoPrime]

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

Remember when Trump threw a tantrum* over not getting nominated Time Magazine's person of the year when he was elected for the first time?

They should give it to him this year. It would be apt for 2020.

*Can you remember when he wasn't having one?

[JayzusB.Christ]

To be fair, he did get it when he was elected.  His tantrum was about Greta Thunberg getting it last year, instead of him getting it again.  Because it takes maturity, integrity and leadership to be jealous of a teenage girl getting more attention than you.

Fuck him. Obscurity is what he fears the most.  Certainly a lot more than democracy being destroyed, the planet being uninhabitable, and hundreds of thousands of his people dying from a disease. He won't fade away, but let's give him as little of the limelight as possible.

[JayzusB.Christ]

'Scuse the double post, but Don Jr now has the virus.  Jesus wept, get it together, Trumps.

[Professor Bear]

You notice that Corbyn resigned almost a year ago and yet he's still all over the media?  For the same reason that's happening, Trump isn't going anywhere soon.  He's just too useful as a distraction.
The alternative is that the media has to focus on the nous of institutional or systemic issues after almost five solid years of airing talking points on polorising BIG ISSUES like Brexit, the Covid-19 EMERGENCY, the antisemitism CRISIS, Trump, Corbyn, LEFTIST RIOTS - and no-one wants the plebs going after hegemonic problems when the rich are lining their pockets via one crisis after another.
We're just waiting to see what pantomime they manufacture for us to get angry about and focus all our impotent rage upon, like the absolute fucking rubes we are.  Until that manifests, we're stuck with Trump and whatever headlines they can squeeze out of him.

[JayzusB.Christ]

I still can't get my head around the fact that almost half of the US electorate wanted him to stay.  And I believe that upwards of 80% of Republicans believe his election fraud claptrap.  I remember my shock and confusion when he got in in 2016 (good news, Don Jr, you almost had this liberal in tears), and was chatting to my dad about it.  He spoke about we think American culture is similar to ours, but it's an illusion caused by the use of the same language, and our exposure to their TV and movies.  I know very, very few Irish or British people, even those more right-wing types, who see any redeeming qualities whatsoever in the man.

One of the most common arguments seems to be 'well, he's not a politician'.  Well, he's one now.  Also, let's get a TV star in to do your heart surgery, because the last thing you want is a medical expert.  And halfway through that sentence I just remembered one of the most disturbing things I've seen this year, which was a Trump rally chanting 'fire Faucci'.

[Professor Bear]

People can be suckered by constant propaganda, and hegemonic interests rigged the election to be a binary choice between two shitty options.
We should understand how that goes better than most countries.

[IndigoPrime]

It's interesting seeing how English-language countries are. Australia seems in key ways very American at times, but NZ is often like the good bits of Britain, without a lot of the shite. The USA, though... I mean, it started life because people who wanted to be shits weren't allowed and so they fucked off, did a genocide, and ruthlessly utilised resources to a manner that even then champion shits The British couldn't compete with. Their entire politics got stuck in Whigs vs Tories and never really moved on.

From a societal standpoint, the USA is on average significantly less liberal than the UK and significantly more right-wing. The danger for the UK is that the country is heading the same way, embracing nationalism (well, English nationalism in England, which is a much more poisonous variety than e.g. Scottish nationalism), bullshit spewing from media, and the argument that democracy is only acceptable is your team wins.

Our electoral system makes this worse. Pretty much daily I see people arguing that the Tories won a majority of the vote and therefore have a mandate to be shits. No party has ever secured a majority of the vote in my lifetime, and I doubt one ever will.

[TordelBack]

It all reminds me of the 2017 French Presidential Election, where I was momentarily delighted that Le Pen lost, before realising that that meant Macron had won. An increasingly narrow field, where the least-worst option is still terrible, and the worst a handy distraction from that fact.

Still, as I felt 4 years ago and still do today, the elevation of a person like Trump to even a symbolic position of 'supreme power' degrades the whole of humanity, and stunted or reversed what little progress we have made in many areas. The masks of decency political systems use to hide their crimes and manipulations still have some role to play in creating wider aspirations and expectations for how society should behave. So whatever useful role he played as a public bogeyman for the usual suspects, polarising, distracting, shifting the Overton Window, I'm still very glad he'll soon be gone.

[Tjm86]

See one of the things I'm trying to make sense of is why people support Conservatives.  When I read up on it I can see the appeal.  All the talk of respect, tradition and individualism makes sense.  There's a certain 'safety' in the sorts of ideas that are mentioned.

It does seem that some of these ideals have been taken to extremes though.  I mean, Thatcher's old "there is no society, just the individual" is correct on one level.  it takes individuals and personal responsibility to make society work. 

If I take care of my own health and wellbeing then I am not a 'burden' on those around me, more to the point I can contribute to the health and wellbeing of others.  Then again if I am unable to do this through no fault of my own that does not necessarily make me a 'burden', rather someone who can be turned back into a productive citizen again.

Over the last 40 odd years this idea has been distorted all out of proportion though.  "Rugged Individualism" has morphed into selfishness.  It's no longer a matter of making sure we interact appropriately but defending our personal rights whilst ignoring responsibilities. 

The likes of Trump and Johnson are the worst manifestations of this in the political sphere largely because they bring so many along with them.  Enablers make sure they have the chance to do what they want to do out of self interest.  In the meantime the rest of us get screwed.

[Professor Bear]

I still can't get my head around the fact that almost half of the US electorate wanted him to stay.  And I believe that upwards of 80% of Republicans believe his election fraud claptrap.

Dirty liberal George Monbiot covers some of the ground you wonder about, JBC, and even suggests a solution of sorts in what they're doing in Finland by teaching their population "digital literacy" to stop them getting rabbitholed by social media.  I don't necessarily agree with Monbiot's "not using guillotines" policy, but he makes some good points about how people are being conditioned into voting against their own best interests.

[IndigoPrime]

See one of the things I'm trying to make sense of is why people support Conservatives.  When I read up on it I can see the appeal.  All the talk of respect, tradition and individualism makes sense.  There's a certain 'safety' in the sorts of ideas that are mentioned.

It's not my politics, but I understood the appeal of Thatcherism, which was imbued with a kind of get-rich-quick selfishness that appealed widely, and branded 'socialism' as old hat. Also, she was a pragmatist. All the Tories arguing she'd have been on the bus of lies... Really? She and her government were heavily influential in the creation of the single market. I suspect she'd have been on the Eurosceptic side but would have been a Remainer.

What I don't get is how people can vote Conservative now. 40% or so seems to be their base. It's astonishing to think 40% of the UK will happily vote for 2015/17-era UKIP politics. If nothing else, it shows that these days voting is like football for many people: you pick a team and back them, no matter what. And because of our deeply shitty voting system, we are fucked unless everyone else gets their shit together and works together—which is almost certainly never going to happen.

Corbynites scream they won't back Starmer's Labour. So-called Labour moderates yell that they won't vote Labour unless they fully back a nonsensical rejoin stance right now. Labour in general refuse to back PR (something they're unified on, from Blair's lot through to Corbyn) because they'd sooner perennially be the largest party in opposition—a huge protest party—than very regularly the leader of a centre-left coalition. Lib Dems and Labour tear chunks out of each other in England, and the Lib Dems and SNP scrap in Scotland. The Greens hold firm with their local democracy ideology that could very well lead to a bunch more Strouds in 2024.

FPTP is the root of all of the shit we've suffered in recent history. Kill that and everything potentially changes. But I can't see it ever happening.

[JayzusB.Christ]

I still can't get my head around the fact that almost half of the US electorate wanted him to stay.  And I believe that upwards of 80% of Republicans believe his election fraud claptrap.

Dirty liberal George Monbiot covers some of the ground you wonder about, JBC, and even suggests a solution of sorts in what they're doing in Finland by teaching their population "digital literacy" to stop them getting rabbitholed by social media.  I don't necessarily agree with Monbiot's "not using guillotines" policy, but he makes some good points about how people are being conditioned into voting against their own best interests.

Cheers, Prof.  I'll have a listen to that while I wash the dishes now. Hadn't heard of this guy before.