The Last Jedi- still a water-cooler topic round my way, and here too it seems.
I've made no secret of the fact I despised it (generally for the same 10 stock reasons that most normal people give), but sweet Jovus, I cannot understand how it is literally loved by some (my own brother in law, one of my best mates and a few well regarded forumites included).
We've had a bit of distance now since we've seen it. Over a month to reflect on it.
Lets put this baby to a vote; post your score out of 5 here and we'll see what the demographic with truly refined sci-fi taste (2000AD fans) think.
Place your vote as;
5/5 - Cooler than the other side of a Carbonite pillow.
4/5 - I am one with Disney, and The Force is with me.
3/5 - Balance to The Force.
2/5 - Worse than Episode I.
1/5 - Let the hate flow through you.
Any particular reason why you didn't create this as a poll and save yourself some adding up?
I'm happy to stay on-the-fence and give it a 3.
Lots to like and lots I wasn't so keen on. Kylo Ren is the character that interests me - I think he's easily as interesting and charismatic as any of the OT characters.
If I was really heavily invested in Star Wars it would have affected my score but as a casual fan of the original trilogy I've had 30 years of EU stuff and prequels to get me used to picking out the good stuff and ignoring the stuff I don't like.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 29 January, 2018, 04:10:22 PM
Any particular reason why you didn't create this as a poll and save yourself some adding up?
Just the lazy / idiot excuse I'm afraid- I did look that up, but couldn't twig it.
2 out of 5.
5/5 - freshest bit of Star Wars since Empire.
haven't been arsed enough to go and see it... where's the button for that? :-X
5/5 from me, loved it both times I've been.
5/5
I'm not sure what people want/expect anymore.
I thought Luke was a perfect curmudgeon
Yoda was the best since 1980
5/5 for me. I'm happy to acknowledge its flaws (for example, Holdo still doesn't work for me after 4 viewings), and I'm fully prepared to see all its promise squandered in Episode IX, but for now it's left me more excited about Star Wars than I have been since I queued up for Phantom Menace.
Given that I'm in an emotional tangle over whether its as good as or better than Return and has reignited my love of Star Wars films (still overall the Mad Max franchise is now my Sci-Fi go to of choice mind). I've seen it twice at the cinema and enjoyed it more the second time (I will forever remember by son being so excited that he was air lightsabering by the end) I have to give it
4/5
Basically I'm reserving 5/5 for Star Wars and Empire and its not (yet) as good as those beauties. I would go 4.5 but I figure that's just bottling making a decision!
As a film I'd rate it a 2 out of 5, but I wouldn't say that it's 'worse than Episode I'. ;)
4 - best one since the original trilogy, but drags a bit in places
4, for reasons given above.
It's a 1/5 for me.
Certainly much, much worse than Episode 1. Even worse than Rogue 1 and I can't believe that happened!
1/5
I'll sit on the fence with a 3/5. The good bits (mostly Luke) were really good but other parts were a bit of a slog.
If you want to compare it to other films I saw last year, it was better than Atomic Blonde but not as good as XXX3.
1/5 for me, I actually prefer the prequels, and they're bloody awful.
4/5 I didn't like TFA as it was a little too unoriginal for me, so, I liked that TLJ dared to be a bit different and thought Luke was ace throughout. The end blew me away and stayed with me for days, sob!
I'm knocking one off (wait, what!?!) 'cos a) [spoiler]We've been speculating on Snoke's identity for two years now for nowt[/spoiler], b) [spoiler]ditto for Rey's parents, I really wanted her to be a descendent of Palpatine[/spoiler]. I understand why those decisions were made, but just don't like em!
Still, I've watched it 4 Times now and ruddy well enjoyed it! I must say, Star Wars 'fans' (I stress not SIP) are really, REALLY pissing me off. My Twitter and YouTube feed is full of overacting, entitled pricks telling me why Rian Johnson is a nob and why I have to hate this film. So bored of them now.
I make it a rule never to watch a YouTube video with a picture of an angry presenter as the screen grab. Or that is titled "What went wrong with...". Or " xxx fail!".
Quote from: radiator on 29 January, 2018, 06:17:45 PM
As a film I'd rate it a 2 out of 5, but I wouldn't say that it's 'worse than Episode I'. ;)
Same here. So I'll give it a 2.5/5
Although my view might be seen as invalid as my favourite Star Wars movie, and I've seen them all since seeing the first one at the cinema in 1977, is Rogue One. :D
Quote from: Pete Wells on 29 January, 2018, 11:41:54 PM
Still, I've watched it 4 Times now and ruddy well enjoyed it! I must say, Star Wars 'fans' (I stress not SIP) are really, REALLY pissing me off. My Twitter and YouTube feed is full of overacting, entitled pricks telling me why Rian Johnson is a nob and why I have to hate this film. So bored of them now.
Sadly, you're always going to get that kind of reaction from elements of a geek-community.
The discussions here have been really interesting and quite illuminating for me.
My feeling was that they totally misrepresented a key Star wars character, but clearly others here who have similarly lived with Star wars for 40 years don't feel the same way.
It's certainly something that's made me stop and think.....it hasn't as yet changed my opinion but, if nothing else, I am actually pleased that a proportion of the "fan" community is happy with the film and is really enjoying it.
I wish that they had steered clear of the original cast, but with their inclusion i ultimately was hoping for a series of upbeat, fun space adventure films with heroic heroes and evil villains, with the old guys having fun and making me smile. That's not the direction that they went, and the choice they made just kind of brought me down.
I don't mind downbeat.....I really loved Blade Runner 2049 (my favourite film of last year), but I guess I didn't want that sort of defeated vibe playing out in Star wars too.
Anyway, horses for courses, just wasn't my cup of tea.
Sorry for the diversion.......on with the scoring!
I don't understand why people who express a dislike for something are then labelled "entitled"
It's lazy and meaningless labelling. What the fuck does it even mean? They're entitled to what? Like something? Or are they not entitled to have an opinion that differs to yours?
I do agree that extreme, splenetic reactions to a science-fiction film; poring for hours over plot holes and structure and crying about "betrayals" of characters is a bit silly, but then so are the equally in-depth retorts from rabid cheerleaders, who label any negative opinion as "entitled" or "man-children" or whatever.
They're both equally embarrassing examples of "mental", albeit at polar extremes.
I liked the film. It was fun. Yeah, bits of it were silly, and certain parts of it were rubbish, but I was entertained. It didn't ruin anything for me. I didn't feel entitled or otherwise.
It's a Star Wars film. It doesn't matter much really.
Quote from: manwithnoname on 30 January, 2018, 09:42:58 AM
I don't understand why people who express a dislike for something are then labelled "entitled"
It's not the disliking, it's the sentiment of "deserving" something better, ie: that they were
entitled to something better. It's not tricky.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 30 January, 2018, 09:51:35 AM
Quote from: manwithnoname on 30 January, 2018, 09:42:58 AM
I don't understand why people who express a dislike for something are then labelled "entitled"
It's not the disliking, it's the sentiment of "deserving" something better, ie: that they were entitled to something better. It's not tricky.
How do you discern between someone
wanting something better, and someone thinking they
deserved something better?
Or is it simply a way to diminish a group of people and their "wrong" opinions?
Quote from: manwithnoname on 30 January, 2018, 09:57:41 AM
How do you discern between someone wanting something better, and someone thinking they deserved something better?
Well, when they literally
say "I deserved better" I assume that's what they meant.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 30 January, 2018, 09:58:53 AM
Quote from: manwithnoname on 30 January, 2018, 09:57:41 AM
How do you discern between someone wanting something better, and someone thinking they deserved something better?
Well, when they literally say "I deserved better" I assume that's what they meant.
Who's they? I didn't have time to read all the transcripts. Sounds like you saved everyone the bother.
Quote from: manwithnoname on 30 January, 2018, 10:03:49 AM
Who's they? I didn't have time to read all the transcripts. Sounds like you saved everyone the bother.
I was referring to something specific, rather than a blanket statement, and assumed you were too. If that wasn't the case, then please disregard my previous posts.
I effectively used the term "I deserved better" in one of my grumbles......but I didn't really intend it in that way, I was just trying to articulate that I was very disappointed in the direction that the film took and chose my wording poorly.
The film didn't go in the wrong direction for everyone, clearly, but it did from my own personal point of view. You can't please everyone though......and it pleased plenty of people here, so it must have done something right.
Quote from: SIP on 30 January, 2018, 10:20:01 AM
I effectively used the term "I deserved better" in one of my grumbles......but I didn't really intend it in that way, I was just trying to articulate that I was very disappointed in the direction that the film took and chose my wording poorly.
Can't say fairer than that. My apologies, Simon.
Quote from: manwithnoname on 30 January, 2018, 09:57:41 AM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 30 January, 2018, 09:51:35 AM
Quote from: manwithnoname on 30 January, 2018, 09:42:58 AM
I don't understand why people who express a dislike for something are then labelled "entitled"
It's not the disliking, it's the sentiment of "deserving" something better, ie: that they were entitled to something better. It's not tricky.
How do you discern between someone wanting something better, and someone thinking they deserved something better?
Or is it simply a way to diminish a group of people and their "wrong" opinions?
Having an opinion and expressing it is absolutely fine, obviously. When people start petitions and throw around death threats demanding that the ending to a videogame be changed, or that a movie be removed from canon, or that sweeping changes are made to appease them because of their own personal opinion - that's the entitlement people are referring to. I work in videogames and see it in comment threads all the time, I used to be excited to see what the fans made of any news but nowadays there isn't a single announcement that can go by without any positive response being drowned out by hateful tantrums from people who think I should be unemployed and my family should die slowly of various diseases, just because the thing they're getting has a chance of not fitting their own very specific wants. It's a real step beyond just having an opinion.
I always think back to the whole Mass Effect 3 thing whenever something like this happens (and it now happens constantly). That feels like a bit of a watershed moment now and I think Bioware handled it the wrong way and set a very poor precedent. It conditioned people to think that their rage had an impact so was justified. It legitimized the kind of behavior we now see every time a choice is made that a group of fans don't like. Plus when you change things to appease a very loud and vocal minority of fans (because even in the case of the Star Wars rage, the box office shows that most people really aren't that upset, even if the noise on the internet says otherwise) then you're compromising the original vision in a way that detracts from it for the people who were happy with it (I liked the original Mass Effect 3 ending a lot more!).
EDIT: That rant wasn't aimed at anyone on the board, just my general feelings about the current state of internet reactions to things!
4/5 for me. I liked how they subverted certain tropes, but I think they might have done it too much. Overall, I thought it a triumph, however. Luke might not have turned out quite how I'd have imagined, yet I didn't find his choices unbelievable.
[spoiler]In the end, I think he was far from a failure, and left the film on a high note.[/spoiler]
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 30 January, 2018, 10:28:18 AM
Quote from: SIP on 30 January, 2018, 10:20:01 AM
I effectively used the term "I deserved better" in one of my grumbles......but I didn't really intend it in that way, I was just trying to articulate that I was very disappointed in the direction that the film took and chose my wording poorly.
Can't say fairer than that. My apologies, Simon.
It's all good Jim. Sometimes I get a bit carried away in my "rants"! I need to proof read a little more I think.....it did sound self entitled.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 30 January, 2018, 07:45:43 AM
I make it a rule never to watch a YouTube video with a picture of an angry presenter as the screen grab. Or that is titled "What went wrong with...". Or " xxx fail!".
And you are wise to do so. I almost can't believe some of the rhetoric, which even when you filter out the ones that include the phrases "SJWs ruined..." and "that Asian bitch" (which, lets face it, are not actually about Star Wars at all) is almost baffling in its concerns. The ones that truly amaze are the ones demanding George Lucas' return to write, direct and produce everything. As a long time-defender of Lucas, who has spent the last 20 years listening to unending hate and vitriol often involving the phrases "raped my childhood" and "money-grabbing hack", I just can't get over this particular change in the weather. Lucas did great work, along with Henson he has been one of the most profound cultural influences in my life. Now other people are doing new work, and I wish them well. Do these have be exclusive positions?
Then there's the more recent shift from decrying Disney's excision of the old EU material, to condemning any apparent reference to them. The same folk that were appalled to learn that Dark Empire and the Thrawn Trilogy no longer happened ( ::) ) are aghast that Luke could be temporarily tempted by the Dark Side, or that his old lightsabre was found, or that he might learn new Force powers, or develop a more nuanced view of the Jedi way, or that he might fail in teaching Han and Leia's son so that the boy was lured away by a Dark Side mentor and allied himself with a new military movement that saw the Republic as weak and corrupt and vowed to bring order, and then went on to murder a family member both he and Luke loved...
You'd almost think that people just like to get angry about whatever is in front of them in the hope it'll attract a few clicks.
Quote from: SIP on 30 January, 2018, 10:40:11 AM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 30 January, 2018, 10:28:18 AM
Quote from: SIP on 30 January, 2018, 10:20:01 AM
I effectively used the term "I deserved better" in one of my grumbles......but I didn't really intend it in that way, I was just trying to articulate that I was very disappointed in the direction that the film took and chose my wording poorly.
Can't say fairer than that. My apologies, Simon.
It's all good Jim. Sometimes I get a bit carried away in my "rants"! I need to proof read a little more I think.....it did sound self entitled.
You two just don't fit into this modern world at all, do you? ;)
4 out of 5. It has its faults and a couple of plot points that needed a lot of handwaving to accept but it was a lot of fun, a breath of fresh air and a great send off for an established character.
Quote from: TordelBack on 30 January, 2018, 10:43:42 AMAnd you are wise to do so. I almost can't believe some of the rhetoric, which even when you filter out the ones that include the phrases "SJWs ruined..." and "that Asian bitch" (which, lets face it, are not actually about Star Wars at all) is almost baffling in its concerns.
I watched a few (postitive) feminist takes on TLJ and somehow the Youtube algorithm still decided to stuff the recommendations column with Diversity And Comics* videos - Youtube is deliberately creating a hostile atmosphere in the discussion just like they deliberately engineered comments sections full of unashamed racists to encourage repeat pageviews and higher advertising rates.
There have always been entitled fans, but we're at the first point in history where their man-baby antics can be successfully monetized, and this is why we're seeing more of them, not because they've somehow successfully organised and become a social movement. See also: Twitter and Nazis.
* presumably named after the two things the presenters hate most.
Quote from: TordelBack on 30 January, 2018, 10:43:42 AM
You two just don't fit into this modern world at all, do you? ;)
Fuck off, you unreasonably reasonable bastard!
4/5 for me. Sufficiently different from other ones to be fresh, and I enjoyed all the ways and lengths they went to in their attempt to pull the rug out from under viewers' expectations.
I'm liking this sequel trilogy a lot. And much more importantly, my kids love it.
SBT
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 30 January, 2018, 01:02:26 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 30 January, 2018, 10:43:42 AM
You two just don't fit into this modern world at all, do you? ;)
Fuck off, you unreasonably reasonable bastard!
That's more like it... ;)
That is the great thing about it, SBT. I thought it was bloody awful, but both my kids and my Dad, if they could vote here, would be giving it 5. They LOVED it.
Quote from: manwithnoname on 30 January, 2018, 09:42:58 AM
It's a Star Wars film. It doesn't matter much really.
It does to some people.
What do you care?
Absolute dross. Gets a '1' but only because Luke doesn't say "It's engaged!" when Rey bangs on his door the first time he locks himself away.
It falls into a black hole sucking all information into a void.
0/5
4/5. Something new and unexpected after TFA. The fact it's divided fans so much only proves it took some chances.
3/5
Enjoyable but messy and flawed. Baffled at the idea that its 'new/done something different/its own thing/etc' as the main narrative was a long rehash of bits of Empire with a bit of RoTJ thrown in. Slightly more varied than TFA is all I could say on that score. (I enjoyed both enough! This one, less so though.)
Just like radiator, it's a 2 out of 5 for me but it's better than The Phantom Menace.
Quote from: Keef Monkey on 30 January, 2018, 10:29:15 AM
I always think back to the whole Mass Effect 3 thing whenever something like this happens (and it now happens constantly). That feels like a bit of a watershed moment now and I think Bioware handled it the wrong way and set a very poor precedent. It conditioned people to think that their rage had an impact so was justified.
I know what you're saying and it's kinda crazy that people are motivated to create petitions and pressure groups to try and have TLJ wiped from the records, but man, I wish Mass Effect 3 had a worthy ending and I have to admit that if disgruntled fans had got me that, I wouldn't have complained. The Indoctrination Theory was pretty cool!! :D
Quote from: Professor Bear on 30 January, 2018, 12:40:59 PM
...the Youtube algorithm still decided to stuff the recommendations column with Diversity And Comics* videos - Youtube is deliberately creating a hostile atmosphere in the discussion just like they deliberately engineered comments sections full of unashamed racists to encourage repeat pageviews and higher advertising rates.
There have always been entitled fans, but we're at the first point in history where their man-baby antics can be successfully monetized, and this is why we're seeing more of them, not because they've somehow successfully organised and become a social movement. See also: Twitter and Nazis.
* presumably named after the two things the presenters hate most.
Youtube algorithms that are perhaps affected by D&C having 56k+ subscribers?
Many won't like his terminology, but from what I gather, he doesn't hate comics or diversity, he hates comics that he considers to be poorly written that don't sell and that he argues have resulted in comic stores closing down. His daughter is Muslim so I doubt he hates diversity.
(No comment from me on
The Last Jedi as I haven't seen it. In fact, today is the last day it's showing at my not so local cinema.)
Quote from: SuperSurfer on 31 January, 2018, 04:05:47 AM
Many won't like his terminology, but from what I gather, he doesn't hate comics or diversity, he hates comics that he considers to be poorly written that don't sell and that he argues have resulted in comic stores closing down. His daughter is Muslim so I doubt he hates diversity.
You gather wrong. I know comic pros who have been on the receiving end of D&C's abuse, and the additional abuse received as a result of him egging on his followers.
Quote from: radiator on 29 January, 2018, 06:17:45 PM
As a film I'd rate it a 2 out of 5, but I wouldn't say that it's 'worse than Episode I'. ;)
The one-liners beside the rating system were just intended as an amusement (for me), not a qualification of the score- they should be ignored!
Also;
0/5 will be bumped up to 1/5
Half marks will be bumped down
< Says a prayer to the God of Patience, CFM >
Quote from: Link Prime on 31 January, 2018, 09:14:45 AM
0/5 will be bumped up to 1/5
Half marks will be bumped down
Only a Sith deals in integers.
This is a fascinating thread LP, many thanks.
I cant decide if 1 is measly or 2 is generous. We should've went to see Thor instead.
That entire Casino world section was prequel levels of shit and I've actually blanked out Leia Poppins on 3 separate occasions until someone reminded me of its dreadfulness.
But hey I'm in a good mood so throw it a 2/5
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 29 January, 2018, 04:10:22 PM
Any particular reason why you didn't create this as a poll and save yourself some adding up?
Presumably because it's almost impossible to figure out how to create a poll (or is it something you have to have special clearance to be able to use, because the SMF book doesn't match up with my reality).
Quote from: sheridan on 31 January, 2018, 01:16:50 PM
Presumably because it's almost impossible to figure out how to create a poll (or is it something you have to have special clearance to be able to use, because the SMF book doesn't match up with my reality).
There's a 'New Poll' option right next to the 'New Topic' button, and it doesn't look
terribly complicated...
(https://i.imgur.com/juWmClp.jpg)
But then we wouldn't be able to criticise IP's maths skills when he presents the results, and that's half the fun!
I don't have the 'New Poll' button. I have 'New Topic', 'Notify', 'Mark Read'.
Quote from: JamesC on 31 January, 2018, 02:33:00 PM
I don't have the 'New Poll' button. I have 'New Topic', 'Notify', 'Mark Read'.
Yeah, that was my problem too.
Did read the FAQ, but gave up- just like my hero Luke Skywalker. ;)
Quote from: TordelBack on 31 January, 2018, 01:59:09 PM
But then we wouldn't be able to criticise IP's maths skills when he presents the results, and that's half the fun!
It's a Trap.
Quote from: Link Prime on 31 January, 2018, 03:56:49 PM
Quote from: JamesC on 31 January, 2018, 02:33:00 PM
I don't have the 'New Poll' button. I have 'New Topic', 'Notify', 'Mark Read'.
Yeah, that was my problem too.
Did read the FAQ, but gave up- just like my hero Luke Skywalker. ;)
I hear ya.......it's times like this I think " what would luke Skywalker do?"......then I run away and hide.
Quote from: Link Prime on 31 January, 2018, 03:56:49 PM
Quote from: JamesC on 31 January, 2018, 02:33:00 PM
I don't have the 'New Poll' button. I have 'New Topic', 'Notify', 'Mark Read'.
Yeah, that was my problem too.
Did read the FAQ, but gave up- just like my hero Luke Skywalker. ;)
No you didn't. You decided to take one for the team anyway.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 31 January, 2018, 01:22:52 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 31 January, 2018, 01:16:50 PM
Presumably because it's almost impossible to figure out how to create a poll (or is it something you have to have special clearance to be able to use, because the SMF book doesn't match up with my reality).
There's a 'New Poll' option right next to the 'New Topic' button, and it doesn't look terribly complicated...
(https://i.imgur.com/juWmClp.jpg)
As others have said - that isn't an option presented to me, so I refer you to the second part of my sentence (...is it something you have to have special clearance to be able to use...)
Quote from: SuperSurfer on 31 January, 2018, 04:05:47 AM
Many won't like his terminology, but from what I gather, he doesn't hate comics or diversity, he hates comics that he considers to be poorly written that don't sell and that he argues have resulted in comic stores closing down. His daughter is Muslim so I doubt he hates diversity.
"SJW Marvel Destroying Comic Book Stores" - oh drokk off (not you Surfer!). He's one step away from calling everyone cucks [Edit: No I see he already does that. Woo.] This is one of the creeps who thought there was anything to object to in this picture of Marvel Employees: https://twitter.com/HeatherAntos/status/891004244089810945/photo/1
Anyway. Back to Last Jedi and a bunch of social justice warriors called the Rebellion/Resistance.
Quote from: sheridan on 31 January, 2018, 05:25:26 PM
As others have said - that isn't an option presented to me, so I refer you to the second part of my sentence (...is it something you have to have special clearance to be able to use...)
No polls for proles! ;-)
Quote from: SIP on 31 January, 2018, 04:15:15 PM
I hear ya.......it's times like this I think " what would luke Skywalker do?"......then I run away and hide.
He would MILK THE QUADBOOB SEAL!
Quote from: Steven Denton on 09 February, 2018, 03:29:28 PM
Quote from: SIP on 31 January, 2018, 04:15:15 PM
I hear ya.......it's times like this I think " what would luke Skywalker do?"......then I run away and hide.
He would MILK THE QUADBOOB SEAL!
It just goes to show how as a society we've progressed. I remember the time you would say 'quadboob seal' and folk would look at you funny.
Totally forgot about this poll, so just popped the tally into Excel there.
Forum opinion is quite mixed, but swaying towards the positive end of the spectrum.
46% of us 'liked it' (4/5 & 5/5 scores), but 42% of us 'didn't like it' (1/5 & 2/5 scores).
Overview;
5/5; 15%
4/5; 31%
3/5; 12%
2/5; 19%
1/5; 23%
I gave it a 1/5 myself, still consider it a miserable and condescending bore-fest that has genuinely killed all interest in Star Wars for me personally.
Anyway, interesting result, but will those dissatisfied customers turn up for Solo and Episode IX despite how they feel about TLJ?
Quote from: Link Prime on 26 February, 2018, 02:12:43 PM
Anyway, interesting result, but will those dissatisfied customers turn up for Solo and Episode IX despite how they feel about TLJ?
I'm certainly prepared to give Solo a go — post-Rogue One, I find I'm far more interested in SW universe off-shoots than the main narrative thrust which seems to have fallen victim to JJ Abrams' trademark "Trust me, I know where all this is going" promise when it's abundantly clear he has no clue where any of it is going.
(Yes, yes, I know Lucas' claims to have had a grand plan going into IV don't hold up to the slightest scrutiny, but he seems to be better at winging it than Abrams...)
Quote from: Keef Monkey on 30 January, 2018, 10:29:15 AMI always think back to the whole Mass Effect 3 thing whenever something like this happens (and it now happens constantly). That feels like a bit of a watershed moment now and I think Bioware handled it the wrong way and set a very poor precedent. It conditioned people to think that their rage had an impact so was justified.
Given how developers usually take note of fanboy wangst in their decisions*, the increasingly larger sizes of day one patches, and the suspiciously short development time for the "alternate" ending of ME3, I would suggest the version of events we've been offered may not be the entire story.
Mass Effect 3 was in development for how long? And cost how much? And not one person in the development or playtesting team had notes on the ending until
after the game was on shelves?
*
Infinite Warfare came out years after ME3 and - in what is unquestionably a good decision made by Activision - utterly ignored the entitled whiny man-crybabies that took to the internet to loudly shit their nappies. Given the financial failure of the game, I would double down on the Fuck You and use the surviving character from the IF campaign as the star of her own series and market it towards women, complete with sparkly pink gun skins or daft stuff like that which women wouldn't actually care about but - just by existing - would enrage the assholes who tanked the first game.
My excitement for Star Wars has worn off a bit but I'll happily give new stuff a go if I like the look of it.
I think we'll get to the point pretty soon where a new film doesn't feel like an event. It's already like that with the Marvel films and TV stuff for me. I'll end up watching most of it at some point but it's really got to grab my interest to get my arse in the cinema.
Quote from: JamesC on 26 February, 2018, 03:05:52 PM
I think we'll get to the point pretty soon where a new film doesn't feel like an event...
Jez surely we're at that point already? A film a year does rather seem to be other eggin' the puddin' to me?
Anyway very interesting results and thanks for doing this Link Prime. I think its most interesting that the lowest score is the 'Meh' - 3 - if nothing else folks have an opinion about this and that's gotta be a good thing ... oh yeah right its only a good think if you love it like me isn't it!
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 26 February, 2018, 06:34:47 PM
Quote from: JamesC on 26 February, 2018, 03:05:52 PM
I think we'll get to the point pretty soon where a new film doesn't feel like an event...
Jez surely we're at that point already? A film a year does rather seem to be other eggin' the puddin' to me?
We still seem to be getting prime time news coverage when they release though. They get about as much main stream buzz as a new Bond film gets. Seems more than you get for most 'blockbusters' to me, which is why I thought they were still seen as 'event' releases. People at work always ask about the new Star Wars films too - have I seen them, what did I think etc. I don't get that with most films.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 26 February, 2018, 02:32:44 PM
I'm certainly prepared to give Solo a go — post-Rogue One, I find I'm far more interested in SW universe off-shoots than the main narrative thrust which seems to have fallen victim to JJ Abrams' trademark "Trust me, I know where all this is going" promise when it's abundantly clear he has no clue where any of it is going.
(Yes, yes, I know Lucas' claims to have had a grand plan going into IV don't hold up to the slightest scrutiny, but he seems to be better at winging it than Abrams...)
There's evidence that Lucas had some sort of plan before ANH was released, but it obviously was subject to change (sibling kisses, et al). Abrams just put things in that he thought looked call - ooh, mystery - without even the slightest clue where they'd go. It wouldn't matter so much if the mysteries were original (even without a pre-planned solution), but they were pretty hackneyed and ho-hum.
Quote from: sheridan on 26 February, 2018, 08:58:12 PMIt wouldn't matter so much if the mysteries were original (even without a pre-planned solution), but they were pretty hackneyed and ho-hum.
I thought the mysteries themselves were engaging (and that is Abram's great strength as a writer), the problem was the impossibility of delivering satisfying solutions within the established SW world. The 'Rey's Family' mystery was pretty cool: Are her powers connected to Jedi Lineage? Why did they leave her with Plutt of all people? Why haven't they come back for her? Unfortunately there could be no good answer: Skywalker, Organa-Solo, Palpatine, Kenobi: all the front-running solutions were pretty naff, as two years of argument demonstrated. The alternative, "I'm no-one", was by far the better answer, but didn't seem to justify the setup.
It can be argued (to Abram's partial credit) that the answer was set out fairly clearly in TFA, where Maz explains that all this is irrelevant: her real family lies in the future, not the past - but this passed many of us by completely.
So, effectively half us didn't like it, half of us did.
Would be interesting to see what the results would be for the OT and PT films. I suspect we would see similar figures for the prequels.....a better response for the original trilogy.
Browsing through certain areas of the Internet today and the general level of fan hate for this doesn't appear to have let up yet does it? I'll avoid for another.month or two I think......
Now, when is that blu ray released..........I'm curious to see if it sells exactly the same as force awakens.
As long as there are family members who haven't a single clue what to buy their sci-fi loving brothers/dads/sons for birthdays/Chrimbo/anniversaries, etc, the highest-profile sci-fi item in Tesco will fly off the shelves regardless of the opinion of its buyer or intended recipient.
I hated the Prequels, but have all three on dvd through no fault of my own, and at one point I had two blu-ray copies of The Force Awakens, despite having no intention to watch it again.
I still buy, like and rewatch "the bad ones (and you have your own definition of that) because... lightsaber... John Williams music... gorgeous designs... spaceships... etc. Just some, I don't research as much as others.
Of course I feel that since the Internet and RedLettetMedia, people don't feel "not liking as much" is strong enough and has to be expressed as "hate, "totally sucks, "destroyed my childhood". But I bet 50% of the "haters" still buy.
I wouldn't lay too much blame for the binary nature of internet opinion at the feet of RLM - their criticisms are usually well thought-out and heartfelt, but it's the humorous exaggeration of the presentation that gets taken up by the mob, rather than the points made.
There's a blu-ray shaped hole in my heart just waiting to be filled by porgy goodness.
Mine too. Is there going to be a 3D release?
Quote from: Link Prime on 26 February, 2018, 02:12:43 PM
Anyway, interesting result, but will those dissatisfied customers turn up for Solo and Episode IX despite how they feel about TLJ?
I probably will, I still enjoy going with my friends to the cinema even if the film is a let down sometimes, we usually make a whole day of it and get food and all that! So assuming
they still want to go and see them, I'll be in. Solo looks pretty good so far!
Quote from: TordelBack on 28 February, 2018, 11:40:10 AM
I wouldn't lay too much blame for the binary nature of internet opinion at the feet of RLM - their criticisms are usually well thought-out and heartfelt, but it's the humorous exaggeration of the presentation that gets taken up by the mob, rather than the points made.
There's a blu-ray shaped hole in my heart just waiting to be filled by porgy goodness.
I thought the RLM review of The Last Jedi was spot on - more bemused bafflement than anything.
Quote from: TordelBack on 28 February, 2018, 11:40:10 AM
I wouldn't lay too much blame for the binary nature of internet opinion at the feet of RLM - their criticisms are usually well thought-out and heartfelt, but it's the humorous exaggeration of the presentation that gets taken up by the mob, rather than the points made.
I recently watched
The Star Wars Awakens, their highly entertaining 2-hour review of TFA, and they are both well aware of the manufactured hysteria of the internet (they show footage from "reaction" videos where Youtube celebrities
literally scream for attention while watching the Force Awakens trailer), and susceptible to its demands and influence (their opinion of the Prequels, despite going into detail on occasion, remains a binary one in which George Lucas is somehow personally responsible for dumbass articles on the internet ascribing deliberately archaic narrative structures to the PT*).
* There also seems to be a subtext in their reviews that Lucas was bullied out of the industry by organised fandom and that he deserved it because he's a bad person, but I hope I am reading that wrong even though it's an implication that's turned up in a few of their videos now.
True, the thrust of the Plinkett videos was very much anti-George, if equally strongly pitched as comedy. I think their more recent stuff tends to be more balanced, and more aimed at lampooning quasi-professional 'fan' channels and laughably extreme responses. I enjoy it a lot, even if I find my own opinions in the crosshairs, but I do object to seeing RLM catchphrases being repeatedly thrown about as put-downs by people incapable of that level of criticism (or wit).
The spoof reaction-video they did for the Solo trailer before it was released was great, but even better when it was edited and spliced with the eventual trailer. Clever stuff (https://youtu.be/d1G62KHmuXM).
Quote from: Professor Bear on 03 March, 2018, 11:38:03 AM
I recently watched The Star Wars Awakens, their highly entertaining 2-hour review of TFA, and they are both well aware of the manufactured hysteria of the internet (they show footage from "reaction" videos where Youtube celebrities literally scream for attention while watching the Force Awakens trailer), and susceptible to its demands and influence (their opinion of the Prequels, despite going into detail on occasion, remains a binary one in which George Lucas is somehow personally responsible for dumbass articles on the internet ascribing deliberately archaic narrative structures to the PT*).
* There also seems to be a subtext in their reviews that Lucas was bullied out of the industry by organised fandom and that he deserved it because he's a bad person, but I hope I am reading that wrong even though it's an implication that's turned up in a few of their videos now.
I've got to say I never picked up on those things (certainly not as serious positions). They seem to think he's a bad, cynical film maker though, and they love taking the piss out of him. I'm sure they're not gutted to see the back of Lucas.
As to the Plinkett reviews in particular being anti-Lucas, I think you'd be incompetent if you made a comedy analysis of the prequels and did not tear George a new one! The buck stops with him, and theres plenty of hilarious and telling footage to use too.
If I remember right there was a teaser video they did once (might've been for Space Cop) where they send up all the catchphrases fans spew in the comments of every video, I'll have to find it.
The comedy is fair game, but it goes beyond that to using independent interpretation of Lucas' work to explain why Lucas doesn't know what he's doing and then presenting these observations as evidence of Lucas being hoist on his own petard, rather than simply being roundabout straw man arguments that only work if you take the original opinion as gospel.
Their opinion has evolved over time, as TB points out, but in the case of RLM it seems less and less and like a maturing evaluation of Lucas and more buyers' remorse for backing the wrong horse with the "anything but Lucas=good" fan narrative. I've seen very similar mea culpas in the Youtube visual essay sphere, one of the better ones being Lindsay Ellis' long-coming and self-aware apology to Stephanie Meyer. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O06tMbIKh0)
Lindsay Ellis one of the best voices on You Tube full stop*. Her GotG stuff is brilliant.
I've never understood the anti-Twilight crowd, but then nor have I read/watched any: problem solved.
*up there with Caitlin Doughty and Jenny Nicholson.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 03 March, 2018, 02:02:56 PM
The comedy is fair game, but it goes beyond that to using independent interpretation of Lucas' work to explain why Lucas doesn't know what he's doing and then presenting these observations as evidence of Lucas being hoist on his own petard, rather than simply being roundabout straw man arguments that only work if you take the original opinion as gospel.
What do you mean by independent interpretation sorry, their own opinion or the fan theory they talked about (there was one venerating George as a genius if i recall)? Either way I cant remember them doing that really, maybe I missed it though.
I will check out that Lindsay Ellis video, is there some background or context I should know? I know Twilight got a lot of shit..
Well Last Jedi has passed the last test.
Watched it at home with the kids this afternoon on DVD - they're still on holiday I didn't take them out of school for this! - it still holds up really well and is now offcially the Taylor household (well mine) third favourite Star Wars film of the lot. Its really good and I think makes really good decisions pretty much throughout.
Love Luke's in it and think it provides a very fitting and character driven ending to his story - well at least his story as a living character at least.
Love the development of the new characters and they way it progresses them.
Think Snoke is used really well.
Don't really buy into the plot holes that I've often hear mentioned.
Love the way it clears the decks so if the next is handled right, will allow it to be freed of the shackles of the old stories.
Its respectful of the past without being reverential.
Above all it feels like a great, fresh and exciting Star Wars movie.
Its an absolute winner.
I've bought it on blu and plan to screen it on the projector for the missus who did not see it at the cinema but I have to steel myself a tad as I was not a fan first time round.
Seen it twice and hoping that absence makes the heart grow fonder.
Well I didn't like and the only way to be sure is to watch it again repeatedly.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 12 April, 2018, 06:02:02 PM
Well I didn't like and the only way to be sure is to watch it again repeatedly.
You never know. I've grown fond of several films I've disliked on first or second viewing and visa versa.
As Tom Jones says 'It's Not Unusual'.
I disliked The Force Awakens even more on a second viewing and left it at that. I didn't, for example, then go on and watch it four more times just to be sure I hated it, though I gather some did and this was what I was being sarcastic about.
I've ended up liking the Prequels after repeat viewings - when I saw them first time I legit fucking hated them - and the last time I watched Revenge I unironically loved it. Now I know why all those dozens of articles about how the PT was really just a failure of execution so the Sequel Trilogy will be great magically appeared everywhere all at once after massive sponsor of many online pop culture websites Walt Disney bought up Star Wars and announced they were making new movies.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 12 April, 2018, 06:41:16 PM
I disliked The Force Awakens even more on a second viewing and left it at that. I didn't, for example, then go on and watch it four more times just to be sure I hated it, though I gather some did and this was what I was being sarcastic about.
The prequels, to me, always will be like shite cartoons. Loved TFA, despised TLJ, adored Rogue One. There is some good stuff, some great stuff, in TLJ, but, for me, the bad outweighs the good by a far margin.
But there have been plenty of films I've hated on first viewing only to soften when the weight of expectation has been eradicated and I'm hoping that's the case with TLJ.
I'm not sure a lot of the hate for TLJ will soften with time as it did with the Prequels because the PT only disappointed Star Wars fans, whereas for a lot of people it seems like the Sequels actively insulted them, and then Disney's astrotufing marketing campaign painted them as racists and sexists for voicing criticism, or at the very least called them gatekeepers and killjoys who wouldn't let little girls have their own Luke Skywalker. I can kind of see a lot of people holding a grudge against the film for that, to be honest.
If I can say one good thing about the film, though? "Luke Skywalker saving the day is a stupid child's story" was always going to be a polorising theme, but the film had Luke Skywalker himself say this, and then he strained too hard on his Craggy Island crapper and fell over and died. After 40 years, the last flickering embers of a fire that started in the hearts of children in a crappy monoaural movie theater in 1977 and weathered the storms of injurious experience that tempered them into the bitter adults that watched the world go back to Hell by making their mistakes all over again, finally died in front of an IMAX depiction of Luke Skywalker telling them that the stories they had in their head - that rich inner fantasy life that probably sustained them when all else let them down - were stupid, and then Luke fell off a toilet and died, just like they probably would.
Hate it or love it, you have to admit that in-canon punking an entire generation of fans is pretty funny.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 12 April, 2018, 07:51:31 PMAfter 40 years, the last flickering embers of a fire that started in the hearts of children in a crappy monoaural movie theater in 1977 and weathered the storms of injurious experience that tempered them into the bitter adults that watched the world go back to Hell by making their mistakes all over again, finally died in front of an IMAX depiction of Luke Skywalker telling them that the stories they had in their head - that rich inner fantasy life that probably sustained them when all else let them down - were stupid, and then Luke fell off a toilet and died, just like they probably would.
As always I get a kick out of your witty wordery Prof, but you know you're describing me there, to a tee; yet my reaction to TLJ was the complete opposite.
I saw a hero who had lost everything through his own weakness, railing against what he once believed, convinced the universe was better off without him; then at the end found the strength to stand up again, confront evil in his unique non-violent way, and pass on the new hope he had once embodied. What I saw was that -
for once - all the stories I'd made up in my head weren't as good as the one I saw on the screen. If TLJ did nothing else for me, it would still have given me that.
I do get the reaction to being told that you are wrong/a bad person/not a fan for not loving a film (especially when there is the strong suggestion of corporate malfeasance being behind it), but equally the internet tells me almost daily that I'm not a 'true fan' for thinking it's the best SW film since Jedi.
We rewatched all the SW flicks and the Tartakovsky series in 'chronological order' over the last few weeks, ending up with TFA tonight, in preparation for the TLJ Blu-Ray. The prequels started off fun, and I was surprised to find I can now enjoy the more appallingly bad scenes quite a bit, but I still find the last quarter of RotS to virtually unwatchable.
More surprisingly, I found that my enjoyment of TFA has been greatly improved by TLJ, the over-familiar super-weapon desert-planet rebel-base elements now feeling pleasantly nostalgic in the light of the knowledge that all this comfort food will soon be swept away, and the characters all the more interesting for the awareness of where they are heading. An accusation often levelled at TLJ is that it ignores or dismisses all the groundwork laid by TFA - far from it, I think it elevates those elements by recasting them as the starting points of a more ambitious story.
Quote from: TordelBack on 12 April, 2018, 08:31:23 PM
I saw a hero who had lost everything through his own weakness, railing against what he once believed, convinced the universe was better off without him; then at the end found the strength to stand up again, confront evil in his unique non-violent way, and pass on the new hope he had once embodied.
As ever Mr Tordelback captures my thoughts in a way I'd never even known I knew. The only additional I'd say is its not Luke's 'weakness' its his humanity. In the specifc of Kylo he had a moment, he conquered that moment but it had consequences anyway. In more general terms he followed his two mentors. When the moment was right you take yourself off.
But yeah Tordelback as we know is just right.
Lads, you don't have to tell me about swimming against the current of opinion, but just say the word and I'll give you another 5000 word essay on the merits of Batman & Robin and/or Star Trek V: The Final Frontier.
Preaching to the choir on Star Trek V.
Having rewatched TLJ earlier this week, it is still a curious beast. Plunging the rebellion / resistance into it's darkest hour worked better with ESB largely because there was a significant antagonist against which to rail. For me, the biggest weakness of this new arc is that the New Order seems to have appeared out of nowhere, that Snoke is someone we ought to know better and that the 'resistance' has a lack of a clear opponent. It just seems so contrived. Perhaps if we'd had a film that showed the rise of Smoke and the first order, that showed the formation of the resistance or its evolution from the rebellion. Whatever else you want to say about the original prequel trilogy, at least it made sense from a narrative perspective.
As a complete aside, something that I missed the first time round but caught my eye on the rewatch; the nipper at the end with the Rebellion ring sweeping out the stables uses the force on the broom. It's incredibly subtle but it's there.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 12 April, 2018, 07:51:31 PM
After 40 years, the last flickering embers of a fire that started in the hearts of children in a crappy monoaural movie theater in 1977 and weathered the storms of injurious experience that tempered them into the bitter adults that watched the world go back to Hell by making their mistakes all over again, finally died in front of an IMAX depiction of Luke Skywalker telling them that the stories they had in their head - that rich inner fantasy life that probably sustained them when all else let them down - were stupid, and then Luke fell off a toilet and died, just like they probably would.
Oh, boo-hoo to them losers. My childhood hero turned out to be a douchey whinebag who killed a load of kids, choked his wife, and was nearly burnt to death by his best friend.
Jedi propaganda - Lord Vader was burned while preparing food for starving war orphans. Who the Jedi then killed.
Another Prequel should clear things up.
Picked up the 3D bluray and just watched it tonight.
It's still great.
The (scant) bonus material has an odd melancholy about it. None of the "Holy shit! We're making a fuckin' Star Wars movie" feel of the TFA extras. And unusually candid in that Mark Hamill's "You have Luke's character all wrong" get mentioned several times.
Nice relaxed re-watch last night, bloody hell that whole opening sequence is one of the best SF action things ever committed to film. The wider shots of the fighters desperately trying to screen the bombers as they near their target... That's armrest-gripping stuff right there.
Awards season somehow ignored Ade Edmonson's career-topping turn as Best Supporting Actor in a Comedy, but if there's one death I really regret in TLJ it isn't [spoiler]Luke, Snoke or Ackbar, [/spoiler]it's Mark Lewis Jones's splendid Captain Kanady, a character brilliantly created in just a few lines and a defiant sneer for the ages. Gone too soon.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 12 April, 2018, 07:51:31 PM
I'm not sure a lot of the hate for TLJ will soften with time
Don't think so either.
Kanady is great - he might only have one line. A prime example of bringing someone (and a script) to life by having them speak in something other than basil.
If people spent more time doing that on screenplays than they do on deciding the exact colour for the handle of a gun, films (and us) would be much better for it.
Quote from: Link Prime on 16 April, 2018, 02:40:29 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 12 April, 2018, 07:51:31 PM
I'm not sure a lot of the hate for TLJ will soften with time
Don't think so either.
It may not soften for ye hard bastards, but you may have missed the massive (apparent) shift in opinion on the Prequels (and The Clone Wars). Almost 20 unbroken years of 'that money-grabbing neckbeard hack Lucas raped my childhood' has seemingly transformed to 'if only a true visionary filmmaker like Lucas was still in charge, and not that money-grabbing hagbitch hack Kennedy'.
Personally I've been resolutely in George's camp, especially his terrific (if sometimes bewildering) input into TCW, and his fantastic eye for picking iconic designs (which I do think is sorely missed), but that doesn't mean I don't also appreciate a new/different vision - Johnson's in particular - as a satisfying alternative to no new material, ever. Despite Lucas' genuine creative control at points in the past, SW at its best has always been a collaborative effort, and after TLJ I'm convinced that the Disney years have the potential to continue in that vein.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 16 April, 2018, 04:23:23 PM
Kanady is great - he might only have one line. A prime example of bringing someone (and a script) to life by having them speak in something other than basil.
Add the A-Wing leader Tallie (sp?) to that list - she gets a fair chunk of comm-chatter basil to spoon out, but equally the camera gives her sufficient time for us to pick her out, and she has strong non-verbals that make her as memorable a pilot character as Porkins or Gold Leader, so that (like them) when she gets blown up in the hangar it feels bloody awful. Compare this with the Naboo pilots in TPM, where there's Ric Olie (who is on screen for about a quarter of the film, but in all of his dialogue fails to do or say anything that makes him interesting as a character, despite Ralph Brown being a more than capable actor), then 'the female one' and 'the black one'... and I neither know nor care about ANY of them as much as I do about Tallie (and I'm a fan of that movie). It's good strong filmmaking, in my opinion.
This film is still insulting and tonally wrong. Jumping the shark princess remains laughably bad. Snoke's death - without any character building at all - is off. The whole thing feels like a badly thought out exercise in half-baked ideas.
To you it feels insulting, Dr X. To me, it's a breath of fresh air in a formerly locked room. Your 'half-baked ideas' are either (depending on the idea you mean!) my 'refusal to be constrained by what is expected', or a well-developed theme.
Snoke as a character has (I believe) more lines that the Emperor did in the OT, refers to his motivations, events in the past and plans for the future, and other characters say more about him than they did in the OT: he also takes a far more active role in the plot, instead of merely setting events in motion. His death only seems premature because you expected to learn more about him, as we eventually did about Palpatine. Any maybe we still will, post-mortem, as we did (in a sense) about Palpatine. Or maybe we won't, and you can fill in the blanks yourself, as we once did about the Emperor.
Oooh nurse, up the dosage, I'm off on one... The best thing about Snoke's fate is that it addresses what is often pointed out as a flaw in OT: that Vader himself, as the more interesting and iconic character, should have been the big baddie, not some beaten dog who eventually turns on his cruel master (not that that didn't work for me personally, but I take the point). By initially setting up the Snoke/Ren relationship as essentially the same, and then summarily dispensing with Snoke relatively early on, it allows the most interesting character to make a journey and become the main villain with still a movie-and-a-third to strut his stuff. It's clever, and don't try to tell me it wasn't a genuine surprise.
And it's two for one surprises in that scene as shortly after we get to hear about Rey's parents. Genuinely got me and was 1000 times better than internet scuttlebutt.
Me and Tordels should probably get a room and "Last Jedi and chill".
Quote from: TordelBack on 16 April, 2018, 06:27:09 PM
Snoke as a character has (I believe) more lines that the Emperor did in the OT, refers to his motivations, events in the past and plans for the future, and other characters say more about him than they did in the OT: he also takes a far more active role in the plot, instead of merely setting events in motion. His death only seems premature because you expected to learn more about him, as we eventually did about Palpatine. Any maybe we still will, post-mortem, as we did (in a sense) about Palpatine. Or maybe we won't, and you can fill in the blanks yourself, as we once did about the Emperor.
But do we really need to learn any more about him? He's served his purpose wonderfully. Much like the reveal for Rey's parents what did people expect. If he was just another big bad he becomes Emperor lite. Instead he gets shrouded in mystery, built in folks minds and then the rug is pulled and its shown his purpose is two fold.
1. in the moment to create that wonderful story dynamic - has Kylo gone good on us?
2. When its revealed that Kylo ain't gone good all of a sudden we have a great viable villian whose offed the assumed villian to advance his own ascent.
I can't think of a better use of him as a character and I'm really happy with what they did as other options don't serve Kylo as well. If he sticks around Kylo as Tordelback points out is just Vadar lite, to Snoke's Emperor lite.
Also is it not great to have him built up in folks minds just to be literally chopped down. When did it become a bad thing that a piece of fiction defied our expectations and assumptions?
In hindsight, The Last Jedi makes The Force Awakens' act of flinging all the old cards on the table set-up far more palatable and compelling. The First Order was sold to us as a carbon-copy of the Empire, so while The Last Jedi may have pulled the switcheroo on that nostalgia bomb, I fear without cutting that Gordian Knot they would've gone through the motions for the rest of the trilogy. What Rian Johnson rightly picked-up on was its inversions and ran with the idea.
I have my doubts about a lot of the recent rumours that JJ Abrams had a Sequel plan, other than maybe the barest sketch (Abrams does not have a reputation for satisfying reveals/closures), but every rumoured part of that plan I've heard naysayers agree should've happened, has more or less been closer to what everyone is all ready familiar with. Much closer, at least, than The Last Jedi's riffs on the same tropes.
Even Prequel elements that easily could've been expected to be discarded or forgotten feel like they're implemented more thoughtfully. As derided an idea as it is, Lucas's introduction of his rhyming scheme as a thread in the trilogies has been made to work – whether they're all intentional or not – like the call-back to Leia's SOS hologram message to Luke in A New Hope being echoed or responded to 30 years later in his self-projection to help Leia and the Resistance on Krayt. For me The Last Jedi was the proper response to The Force Awakens and could've gone further.
Snoke's death changes the nature of the First Order, surely? He spent years building a functional military with a clear command structure, but now it's... what? Feudalism? Meritocracy? Oh wait I don't care.
I take TB's point about how Snoke's death disappoints because only a fool would get invested in a pretend space war film for children that openly hates straight white men, but I don't get that about Vader being less than the villain of the piece because there's someone above him - what about the Sheriff of Nottingham or Milady DeWinter - or any enemy Nazi that isn't Hitler himself? Vader represented the Emperor's agency, much as Ren did Snoke's, and that's why they always presented as more of a threat to the protagonists.
On a more holistic note, Star Wars inspired countless knock-offs where the Darth Vader analogue
was the big baddie behind the evil space empire, and Star Wars doing the same might have seemed a little underwhelming in the long run. Maybe Lucas changed course a little with each new SW movie - we already know Leia being Luke's sister was something Lucas pulled out of his ass, for example - and the Emperor was deliberately played up as a threat rather than just later killed offscreen like the Senate was?
Quote from: TordelBack on 16 April, 2018, 05:42:24 PMIt may not soften for ye hard bastards, but you may have missed the massive (apparent) shift in opinion on the Prequels (and The Clone Wars). Almost 20 unbroken years of 'that money-grabbing neckbeard hack Lucas raped my childhood' has seemingly transformed to 'if only a true visionary filmmaker like Lucas was still in charge, and not that money-grabbing hagbitch hack Kennedy'.
I have a sneaking suspicion that some of the latter respect for the PT comes from a mix of Disney astroturfing for their new franchise, and people who hate the Sequels going along with it because it's another stick to beat the new films with.
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 16 April, 2018, 07:52:22 PM
Also is it not great to have him built up in folks minds just to be literally chopped down. When did it become a bad thing that a piece of fiction defied our expectations and assumptions?
This is it in a nutshell for me, and an argument that can be applied to A Great Many Things in TLJ. Did we not ALL
expect that Snoke would hang about hamming it up until the closing reel of Episode IX, in the interim revealed as cleverly related to some existing character or other? Wasn't the only real question we had WHEN Kylo would go all soppy(-ier) on us? Didn't Johnson give us a rare treat in this 21st Century of going
WHAT THE ACTUAL DROKK?!? in a cinema?
Except that kind of shock death isn't that unusual. Buffy did it back in its first season with the kiddie vampire chosen one thingy.
Quote from: TordelBack on 16 April, 2018, 08:08:57 PM
Didn't Johnson give us a rare treat in this 21st Century of going WHAT THE ACTUAL DROKK?!? in a cinema?
Quote from: Professor Bear on 16 April, 2018, 08:14:09 PM
Except that kind of shock death isn't that unusual. Buffy did it back in its first season with the kiddie vampire chosen one thingy.
It may not have been unusual in the 20th Century.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 16 April, 2018, 08:14:09 PM
Except that kind of shock death isn't that unusual. Buffy did it back in its first season with the kiddie vampire chosen one thingy.
Granted. But that was good too, wasn't it? I'm not suggesting the twist was unprecedented in the history of fantasy drama, but I am suggesting it was completely unexpected in the context of the established pattern of SW movies - and yet at the same time entirely in keeping with the second-movie rug-pull exercise we
were expecting. Hence, clever.
QuoteI don't get that about Vader being less than the villain of the piece because there's someone above him - what about the Sheriff of Nottingham or Milady DeWinter - or any enemy Nazi that isn't Hitler himself? Vader represented the Emperor's agency, much as Ren did Snoke's, and that's why they always presented as more of a threat to the protagonists.
On a more holistic note, Star Wars inspired countless knock-offs where the Darth Vader analogue was the big baddie behind the evil space empire, and Star Wars doing the same might have seemed a little underwhelming in the long run.
Both good points, which I happen to agree with - but it is something I've seen RotJ (and to a lesser extent Empire) criticised for on a number of occasions: you create the ultimate super-baddie and then make him, to coin a phrase, "a rabid cur in a place of power". Reducing Vader to the level of the Sheriff, or any other feudal ladder-climber,
could be seen as diminishing such an iconic villain. Notably the (omniscient) historical intro to the Star Wars novelisation (which of course predates the completion of the movie itself) absolves Palpatine of any evil agency, instead he's just a figurehead manipulated by corrupt underlings, but equally the very first chapter casts Vader as just one (admittedly the most sinister one) of the Dark Lords of the Sith. By the time the film actually gets made, the Emperor seems to be pulling the strings, and Tarkin is 'holding Vader's leash'. So Lucas' conception seems to have shifted in one respect, if not the other.
As Tips notes, its relevance to the current trilogy is that it shifts the films' focus away from a poor relation of the original dastardly duo to one (IMHO) genuinely interesting villain.
As much as I detest THE LAST JEDI I must concede it's a fitting tribute for Luke. He was crap a Jedi despite a promising start but he came through in the end. Bit like his dad.
Quote from: TordelBack on 16 April, 2018, 06:27:09 PM
To you it feels insulting, Dr X. To me, it's a breath of fresh air in a formerly locked room. Your 'half-baked ideas' are either (depending on the idea you mean!) my 'refusal to be constrained by what is expected', or a well-developed theme.
Snoke as a character has (I believe) more lines that the Emperor did in the OT, refers to his motivations, events in the past and plans for the future, and other characters say more about him than they did in the OT: he also takes a far more active role in the plot, instead of merely setting events in motion. His death only seems premature because you expected to learn more about him, as we eventually did about Palpatine. Any maybe we still will, post-mortem, as we did (in a sense) about Palpatine. Or maybe we won't, and you can fill in the blanks yourself, as we once did about the Emperor.
Gotta agree to disagree. I think it's insulting because it's unsatisfying in a narrative sense. There was nothing to show Snope's motivations, nothing to show his agenda. And then he was dead. A lot of weight was put on him and he simply became a thing of smoke. I've no problem with my expectations being usurped, but this feels like it wasn't thought through.
Actually. I find my reaction difficult to articulate. It's more a visceral sense of wrongness, of incompleteness. I feel cheated out of a story.
And Leia floating was just shite.
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 16 April, 2018, 11:22:31 PM
And Leia floating was just shite.
This is true. The cruiser was established to be burning fuel, and thus accelerating at the time, and therefore Leia and the rest of the expelled debris should have had rapid relative motion along the axis of acceleration: far from floating, Leia should have been falling 'down' towards their pursuers! However, I choose to believe the Raddus' advanced shield envelope contained both debris cloud and frosty princess so that they continued to accelerate with the rest of the ship.
That is what you meant, right? ;)
Look, Dr X, you have every right to your negative reaction, I'm not denying that. I'm just reporting my own, different, reaction. FWIW I also thought the Leia scene (while a strong idea) was awkwardly executed, although I have warmed to it on successive viewings.
I'm a big enough boy to appreciate that you have a different view. It's wrong, of course, but I'm not going to go on and on about it.
Fair dos. Although I probably am going to go on and on about it, it seems inevitable.
So in the spirit of rapprochement, here are some things I really don't like about TLJ:
Rose's theme. While I like the character, and what her relationship with Finn brings, her musical theme is overly cutesy, and badly overused. There's a lot of pretty heavy handed dueling of character themes in TLJ, and it largely works, but when every line Rose has is underscored by this very distinctive, wishy-washy, vaguely preachy snippet, it makes me cringe each time the camera swings her way. SW is all about the music, so this is a shame.
The explicit timescale. Was there any need to count down the rebels' fuel crisis in hours? It makes the Canto Bight excursion ludicrous (all the way there in a tiny shuttle, land, find the casino and the codebreaker, spend time in chokey and meet DJ, escape and go for a ride, then travel all the way back to the fleet, sneak on to the Supremacy, steal uniforms, find the circuit breaker, get caught, all in less than 18 hours....). I know we have no idea how far the fleet is from CB, but that tiny modified B-Wing cockpit doesn't look like even the second-fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy. And that doesn't even begin to address what this means for Rey's entire badgering Luke/training/Ren-communing/finding the fleet storyline.
I get that hyperspace travel has always been at plotspeed, and that Jedi training can be super-quick, but it's putting actual numbers - of hours - on it that pulls me out of things. There must be better ways of conveying time pressure.
Oh no! People are still talking about last jedi!
I still hate it. Just for the record. Come on "Solo".......
Leia Poppins looked stupid, and thus ended my criticism of the scene... so I was a bit surprised that people elaborated further with stuff like "because how does she do the Force?" and "airlocks is different than that."
I mean, if I had to probe beyond "it just looks stupid", I suppose my criticism comes from a general feeling that Star Wars works best the further it stays away from anything that looks like actual for-real science, so depicting vacuum just seemed like a bad idea - if only because this is the same movie series where Han and Leia only needed snorkels to walk around in the belly of a giant hand puppet sleeping with its mouth open to space and to get outside the Falcon all they did was open the front door and walk out. "Airlocks" you say? Those are for Star TREK, nerds.
That's the size of it, alright, but while I hate to be That Guy (all my life), there does appear to be an airlock, or at least double doors, between the Bridge and the corridor. You can see Leia heading for it at the end of her Unscheduled EVA. Also, every hangar on every starship and space station is open to vacuum bar an almost invisible force field, not a big stretch to imagine the command bridge of a starcruiser might have an emergency one of those.
As to the non-sciencey aspects of the Force Poppins business, both the canonical cartoon series and the personal-ur-canon Tartakovsky series have Jedi propelling themselves in zero-G in exactly this manner. I'm endlessly pointing out that prior to TESB, we had never seen a Jedi move an object with the Force, never seen a Force Ghost, never seen any precognition, never seen the super-speed Luke uses in the freezing chamber, indeed never seen Jedi have any kind of physical prowess at all - just choking people (possibly in Admiral Motti's mind rather than a physical constriction of his airway), sensing great disturbances/each other, making illusory sounds, and talking a checkpoint guard out of Stop-and-Search on a charge of driving-while-golden. (Prior to RotJ, no blocking blaster bolts, no Force Lightning).
So Leia suddenly up and flying, or Jedi projecting perfect images of themselves across the galaxy, why the outrage? The implication is that we have already seen everything, and thus new things aren't welcome. Ughh, I say. UGHH!
Another clever thing I hadn't noticed until the most recent rewatch was the way Rey and Ben's facetime sessions are depicted. Ben notes that he can only see Rey, not her surroundings, and Rey seems in the same boat, as they are both shot (at least initially) from the front, staring into space, seeing each other as if in the space they themselves inhabit. This sets up Luke's projection wonderfully - he goes one step forward and projects his image into everyone's minds, even through sensors etc., but he's under no obligation to show his actual circumstances. Equally the raindrop shows the potential persistence of the illusion after the connection is broken.
I basically saw Leia's floating through space as another use of telekinesis, i.e. if one can move an object with one's mind couldn't one move oneself, being an object in space too?*
Oo, 'ark at one!
A possible precursor to this may be when Luke allowed himself to drop on Bespin in Empire...
He didn't appear to fly, but he fell an awful long distance before plunging down that chute. Although it's not clear, I figured he used the force to at least slow down a bit.
And in the prequels and cartoons, I think we see Jedi jumping higher than is possible, suggesting a TK lift. (I guess it's possible the force can actually make you physically stronger too, so I could be wrong there.)
As for Luke's projection, I think I'd have had an issue with the if it was the first time we see this in the film, but it's set up earlier with other characters. There's the obvious communication between Ren and Rey, but we also see Yoda become tangible too, smacking Luke with his staff. And didn't he lose the surrounding corona in that scene, as well? If a force ghost can do this, I'd imagine the spirit of a living Jedi could do it too
*Objects in Space. One of the most interesting episodes of Firefly. Not related to this at all, of course.
Quote from: Mardroid on 18 April, 2018, 06:01:17 AM
I basically saw Leia's floating through space as another use of telekinesis, i.e. if one can move an object with one's mind couldn't one move oneself, being an object in space too?*
Oo, 'ark at one!
A possible precursor to this may be when Luke allowed himself to drop on Bespin in Empire...
He didn't appear to fly, but he fell an awful long distance before plunging down that chute. Although it's not clear, I figured he used the force to at least slow down a bit.
And in the prequels and cartoons, I think we see Jedi jumping higher than is possible, suggesting a TK lift. (I guess it's possible the force can actually make you physically stronger too, so I could be wrong there.)
As for Luke's projection, I think I'd have had an issue with the if it was the first time we see this in the film, but it's set up earlier with other characters. There's the obvious communication between Ren and Rey, but we also see Yoda become tangible too, smacking Luke with his staff. And didn't he lose the surrounding corona in that scene, as well? If a force ghost can do this, I'd imagine the spirit of a living Jedi could do it too
*Objects in Space. One of the most interesting episodes of Firefly. Not related to this at all, of course.
Yup. Buy all that.
But at what point was it revealed to the viewer that she was an actual Jedi? Or did she spontaneously train herself? (Like, um, Rey).
"He can see things before they happen, that's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It's a Jedi trait."
"The Force is strong in my family. My father has it. I have it. My sister has it."
Why were Anakin and Luke such precocious pilots?
Who taught Luke to summon his lightsabre?
Who taught Rey to summon Finn's lightsabre?
Who taught Leia to hear Luke's call for help at Bespin?
Who taught Leia to sense her husband's death?
No-one did.
Some abilities are demonstrably innate, or instinctive, in those pre-disposed to them. I can't imagine that Leia didn't tinker with her potential gifts once she was aware of them, some time in the 30 years we missed, even if only to understand her son better.
"Pass on what you have learned".
And that's even without the strong possibility that Luke actually found a few moments to teach her about moving rocks and making people do what you want.
"Poe Damaron is my most trusted agent and I sent him on the most important mission the Rebellion had, and which was important to me personally, I trust him more than anyone in the whole of the Rebellion, even you, but I am specifically trying to teach him a lesson about going off and doing things on his own because that might result in deaths of people willing to follow him and others who will die as collateral and this is an especially precarious time for us all where any action might kill dozens, if not thousands of people and doom the galaxy to eternal fascism... what was I saying again? Oh yes: don't tell him the plan if I get injured or something LOL. Anyway, I'm just going to go sit on the bridge with Akbar for a minute. BRB."
That is one of the silliest things in TLJ, absolutely: a very risky way to teach someone in Poe's role the meaning of responsibility and restraint. Also, as I argued somewhere in one of these threads, I'm pretty sure Poe's actions in the Illenium system actually saved the fleet by destroying the dreadnaught (the Raddus was about to be destroyed by it, and if it could have jumped sooner, why didn't it? Could have met up with the fighters later). Imagine being chased by a ship specifically designed to punch through planetary shields, or how long their little bolthole on Krait would have lasted against that firepower: no need to laboriously drag miniature superlasers into position.
Quote from: TordelBack on 17 April, 2018, 06:12:36 AM
I get that hyperspace travel has always been at plotspeed, and that Jedi training can be super-quick, but it's putting actual numbers - of hours - on it that pulls me out of things. There must be better ways of conveying time pressure.
I can buy that they all speak English, but not that their 'hours' are the same length as ours. Must be longer!
I like the way you think, Andy. As for their snakes, they seem about the same length.
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 18 April, 2018, 08:20:07 PMBut at what point was it revealed to the viewer that she was an actual Jedi?
Leia was never revealed to be a Jedi but I'd wager most fans expected her at some point to display some force ability. No matter our personal opinion of the scene itself, The Last Jedi
unsurprisingly showed that after 3 decades since learning of her origins, she could, or had learned in the meantime, to use the force. Demonstrating to the audience what they all ready guessed was true is hardly going against what had all ready been set-up – Return of the Jedi's retro-fitting of Vader's twins pushed that hint of force attunement back as far as The Empire Strike Back.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 18 April, 2018, 10:18:01 PMDemonstrating to the audience what they all ready guessed was true is hardly going against what had all ready been set-up...
She explicitly demonstrates Force ability as recently as TFA, when she senses Han's death, so the viewer doesn't even need to delve back as far as Bespin. Plus Ben didn't lick it off the stones.
As to
being a Jedi, well, the movie goes to some length to establish that that isn't a requirement.
I recently heard a youtube critic of Rian Johnson's opine –specifically, regards the flying-nun scene– that one of his problems is he's a show, don't tell director...
Quote from: TordelBack on 18 April, 2018, 08:51:56 PM
Who taught ....
No-one did.
Some abilities are demonstrably innate, or instinctive, in those pre-disposed to them.
Two other cases that are worth considering here as well in favour of this argument; the stable boy at the end of the Last Jedi and Rey. Both use the force to move objects. In Rey's case it is clear that prior to approaching Luke she had no training but was able to do this (Lightsaber duel on Starkiller base). In the stable boy's case there is no evidence to suggest an training, in fact the casual way in which he does it suggests it is something he is used to as matter of fact, or 'instinctive'.
In my head-canon, "using the Force" isn't even the point of Jedi/Sith training - they're philosophies of focus, interpretation, approach and aims. The ability, the pull of light and dark, these are innate, simply honed and developed.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 18 April, 2018, 09:09:23 PM
"Poe Damaron is my most trusted agent and I sent him on the most important mission the Rebellion had, and which was important to me personally, I trust him more than anyone in the whole of the Rebellion, even you, but I am specifically trying to teach him a lesson about going off and doing things on his own because that might result in deaths of people willing to follow him and others who will die as collateral and this is an especially precarious time for us all where any action might kill dozens, if not thousands of people and doom the galaxy to eternal fascism... what was I saying again? Oh yes: don't tell him the plan if I get injured or something LOL. Anyway, I'm just going to go sit on the bridge with Akbar for a minute. BRB."
Its almost as if Johnson filmed the scene where they patronizingly patted 'troublesome' comatose Poe on the head first, then worked backwards from that moment, no matter how preposterous the plot.
Most of you regular YouTube viewers have probably already seen this, but I was just sent the link recently.
Very funny, and spot on too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCB8DUGpYQQ
Quote from: Link Prime on 19 April, 2018, 11:15:34 AM
Most of you regular YouTube viewers have probably already seen this, but I was just sent the link recently.
Very funny, and spot on too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCB8DUGpYQQ
That was pretty painful to watch, but I'm not surprised its fans are falling over themselves to make excuses for it. And the How It Should Have Ended based on it wasn't very good either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paxgKBUK4wQ
Also good.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 19 April, 2018, 02:06:17 PM
Quote from: Link Prime on 19 April, 2018, 11:15:34 AM
Most of you regular YouTube viewers have probably already seen this, but I was just sent the link recently.
Very funny, and spot on too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCB8DUGpYQQ
That was pretty painful to watch, but I'm not surprised its fans are falling over themselves to make excuses for it. And the How It Should Have Ended based on it wasn't very good either.
Heh, I liked it. Increasingly I spend HISHE videos marvelling at how much the visuals have improved, but that's a thing too.
Rewatched this last night in 4K and it looked glorious! Still love the movie too (sorry/not sorry).
Just completed my first rewatch and overall I didn't mind the stuff that grated in the cinema such as:
Luke throwing away the light sabre, his overall attitude - basically that's where he's at
Leia's force gliding thing - I am just ignoring the whole part of the film where she gets sucked out into space
The Casino planet sequence - it didn't seem so long this time and as has been said on the original thread, just because the heroes try something doesn't mean it has to work out
So yes overall quite enjoyed it. Still think the tone is too jokey.
Oh and another plot hole occurred to me. When the First Order are unable to catch up with the resistance ships, why didn't they just send a few Star Destroyers ahead via a small light speed jump to cut them off?
Quote from: Magnetica on 23 April, 2018, 10:10:56 PM
Just completed my first rewatch and overall I didn't mind the stuff that grated in the cinema such as:
Luke throwing away the light sabre, his overall attitude - basically that's where he's at
Leia's force gliding thing - I am just ignoring the whole part of the film where she gets sucked out into space
The Casino planet sequence - it didn't seem so long this time and as has been said on the original thread, just because the heroes try something doesn't mean it has to work out
So yes overall quite enjoyed it. Still think the tone is too jokey.
Oh and another plot hole occurred to me. When the First Order are unable to catch up with the resistance ships, why didn't they just send a few Star Destroyers ahead via a small light speed jump to cut them off?
I'm not sure hyperspace jumps are as precise as that. I know Han Solo did some fairly precise jumping in the Millenium Falcon in the previous film but that was in a much smaller vessel, and the jumps were still fairly long.
Quote from: Mardroid on 23 April, 2018, 10:45:44 PM
I'm not sure hyperspace jumps are as precise as that. I know Han Solo did some fairly precise jumping in the Millenium Falcon in the previous film but that was in a much smaller vessel, and the jumps were still fairly long.
Hard to say how all this works: we see Vader's ship (the
Devastator?) make an extremely precise jump to do essentially this in
Rogue One, and there a lot of precision arrivals of capital ships in the cartoons. Plus the FO fleet seems able to jump right on top of the rebels after their first hyperspace jump (but this may be because of their 'active tracking' setup). Length of jump may well be a factor, but with about a dozen Star Destroyers in pursuit you would think they could spare a handful to make an attempt, even just to rattle the resistance.
My take would be that it is a philosophical issue - as with their reliance on cumbersome and inefficient walkers and superweapons, the Empire and Empire-adjacent like to present themselves as relentless, implacable and overwhelming: slowly grinding the last of the Resistance down in a protracted chase that showcases the asymmetric nature of their fleets suits the self-image better than a cat-and-mouse game across the stars, which could potentially play into the more nimble and heroic mien of the rebels.
Quote from: Magnetica on 23 April, 2018, 10:10:56 PM
Just completed my first rewatch and overall I didn't mind the stuff that grated in the cinema such as:
Luke throwing away the light sabre, his overall attitude - basically that's where he's at
Didn't work for me simply because the movies at no point depict Luke as being the acme of Jediliness. His fall from grace felt anti-dramatic because it seemed an
obvious ruination given his weakness as a character in EMPIRE and RETURN. I doubt this was THE LAST JEDI's intention but I can see it being justified in hindsight.
True of the OT, but 3 decades later in TFA the acme of jediliness is exactly how he was reintroduced: the first line of that film is "this will begin to make things right", referring to the mapguffin. Everyone is desperate to find Luke: he will bring balance, he will turn the tide, he is hope personified. So it may not be a shock from the perspective of someone watching him grow from starstruck farm boy to independent thinker, but it's a hell of surprise coming from a living myth.
Throwaway comments do not a saviour make. But this is the problem with the two new movies, exemplified by that bollocks in THE LAST JEDI about using mind tricks to lift rocks. "Hey! That thing we jokingly mentioned in passing, earlier? No? Well, hellOHHHH anyway!"