2000 AD Online Forum

General Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: -=>DEMONIZER<=- on 12 May, 2004, 07:34:18 PM

Title: NICK BERG
Post by: -=>DEMONIZER<=- on 12 May, 2004, 07:34:18 PM

I have just seen harrowing footage of the apparent murder of American Nick Berg by Iraqis.

This subject has been hotly discussed today on radio (and probably TV) - the issue of mistreatment of Iraqi POWs is supposedly the reason for the beheading.

This should intensify the outrage over the media "exposure" of some coalition troops' behaviour in the warzone (I wonder how Piers is feeling this morning?).

I would like to cast doubt over the authenticity of the footage I have just seen:-

As with most supposedly genuine murder/snuff footage, when it comes down to the act itself the - forgive me for a moment - "action" is interrupted with camera-shakes/zooms where disguised cuts & edits could be made (i.e. to allow the substitution of a man for a dummy).

Could a man's head be cut off with a large knife in a matter of seconds?

The on-screen video-timer also jumps about 10 minutes just before the killing.

I am probably wrong on this one - the footage is somewhat (intentionally?) blurry - but these things and others about it do not sit right.

American propaganda to counter these allegations and stop any further exposure...?
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: Max Kon on 12 May, 2004, 07:37:06 PM
maybe the news people cut it to remove the most grusom parts
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: -=>DEMONIZER<=- on 12 May, 2004, 07:43:08 PM

It has certainly happened before with some notorious footage Max (and in doing so creates suspicion).

But in this case, although the whole film does not run unedited (between Nick's identification and his later re-positioning in front of his murderers) it would not make sense to remove a second where he is pushed to the floor and leave intact the actual "sawing" of his neck (i.e. the most gruesome part of the film).
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: Quirkafleeg on 12 May, 2004, 07:57:20 PM
RC, The Barry Norman of Snuff Video

Grow up, you child.

Can we have this thread nuked Wake? it no exactly a great reflection on the site.
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: Matt on 12 May, 2004, 08:10:08 PM
"but these things and others about it do not sit right."

You've seen many genuine beheadings then to compare and contrast? How exactly would this 'sit right'. I'm a video editor myself and my job has lead me to work in lots of areas. More disturbingly as an expert witness on video for child abuse cases. Believe me sick, evil bastards don't give a toss about lighting conditions, composition and continuity. As far as this particular video is concerned the fuzziness is down to high compression and the use of a digital zoom. There is nothing I have seen so far to suggest this isn't real. It's your conspiracy theories that 'don't sit right'.
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: -=>DEMONIZER<=- on 12 May, 2004, 08:17:19 PM

What strange input.

On what grounds do you want the censorship of my thread?

Serious issues deserve serious attention - if you do not have the observational capacity for relevant comment, please stay away.
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: -=>DEMONIZER<=- on 12 May, 2004, 08:30:56 PM

If you can wave away the high compression and digital zooming, then what about the jump in time factor? What about the fact that these occur RIGHT BEFORE THE KILLING COMMENCES?

I have observed many videos of real-life atrocities in the nature of my work, and have studied the history of Mondo film at university.

Footage passed off as "real" can be scrutinised by the trained eye to expose inconsistencies and sometimes glaring manipulation which would pass the casual observer by (often moreso if the theme is particularly "hard-to-watch").

I can give many, many examples of footage pretending to depict real-life murders and mutilations which are staged and utterly false - although that same footage may remain true and atrocious in the eyes of casual viewers. Strong opinions are then formed.

That "sick, evil bastards don't give a toss about lighting conditions, composition and continuity" is neither here nor there - I am suggesting the film might not have been made by sick, evil bastards, but by propaganda stagers who WOULD give a toss about lighting conditions, composition and continuity.

I'm not saying this is the case, but there is enough evidence to suggest it might be.
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: Wils on 12 May, 2004, 08:36:24 PM
What about the fact that these occur RIGHT BEFORE THE KILLING COMMENCES?

You mean you actually wanted to *see* him have his head cut off?

Freak.
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: House of Usher on 12 May, 2004, 08:40:00 PM
So you're suggesting that this guy wasn't killed by Iraqi's at all, and that he's actually alive somewhere, and that all the footage was shot by an American propaganda machine to draw attention away from attrocities committed by American troops in Iraq? Sounds like conspiracy theory balls to me.
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: Matt on 12 May, 2004, 08:44:50 PM
"You mean you actually wanted to *see* him have his head cut off?"

My sentiments exactly. What sort of individual not only goes looking for this material but then takes pride in the number of atrocities he's witnessed on video. You can dress it up as academia but it's more likely morbid fascination. I suppose you never spared a moment for the poor guy who just had his head hacked off or for his family who'll have to live with this everyday whilst you indulge yourself in conspiracy theories. Watching a few dodgy italian mondo movies does not make you an expert.
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: swavesey on 12 May, 2004, 08:55:20 PM
This is nuts. The footage is clearly real due to the appearance of a named person. The real concern here is how the media is going to use this in order to support the genocide and human rights abuses carried out under the Bush administration. One dead man on camera does not make up for the millions killed by trade sanctions and the thousands already killed by America during the latest invasion.The problem is that these filmed images are far more emotive than the hushed-up statistics reported of Iraqi deaths.
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: Dunk! on 12 May, 2004, 08:59:18 PM
Nick Berg's headless body was found dumped by a roadside on Saturday.

Coincidence?

The makers of the video just got lucky guessing the way he?d eventually die?

Or they had the will to do the deed later but just faked it for the camera?

Give the poor man some dignity that the video has robbed him of and let him lie in peace rather than become fuel for conspiracy nutcases.
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: GordonR on 12 May, 2004, 09:37:01 PM
I think someone's true colours are showing on this thread.
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: Mr D on 12 May, 2004, 10:07:13 PM
This has nothing to do with anything, but I hope Piers Morgan ends up fired and destroyed. Not for any real reason, but simply because out of all the 'tabloid' folk, he's the one I utterly loathe above all others...
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: Mr D on 12 May, 2004, 10:13:09 PM
As far as 'on-topic' goes, he's a troll. What do you expect from him?? Ignore.
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: -=>DEMONIZER<=- on 13 May, 2004, 01:45:18 AM

Matt & Wils:-

This is not holocaust denial - merely the highlighting of a series of abnormal occurrances in the supposedly authentic account of an atrocious war crime. A war crime that is apparently the result of dubious media scoops and will have reverberations throughout the world and affect this war your country is fighting. To discuss it, we need to look at these aspects. If you are unable to examine the evidence available for yourself and can only make derogatory comments then you are not fit to discuss this subject.

Matt, if you think you can get on your high horse about "looking for this material" and other snotty shit about viewing habits then go for it - the academics I am apparently not allowed to fall back on (but it is perfectly okay for you to do so with your own) have served me very well indeed against outraged liberals like yourself who will decide when observation of a recorded event is wrong and the viewer wrong to seek and watch. You have seen the footage yourself to know about the high compression and digital zoom, and that nothing suggests it "isn't real"?

Bleeding heart posts like yours are of course difficult to overcome, but your assumptions are based on NOTHING - don't try and tell me how I might feel about a man who has died and his family.

Rennie: if you're talking about me, then please explain yourself - unless of course you want to leave it at that safe wee remark?

If anyone else has seen the footage and might or might not question it's authenticity then these following observations are blatant as day:-

* The declaration read out just before the murder appears uncut, yet the other important sequence for the makers of this film - the murder itself - is cut several times. For the uninformed, this is a common technique used to create illusions of actual death when in fact manipulations are at work.

* It does not take a surgeon to query that the instrument used and speed of decapitation appear at odds with one other.

* Most strikingly, the on-screen video-clock jumps 11 HOURS (from 2.44:12 to 13.45:47) from the imminent attack to the actual attack - yet the action seems (almost) fluent.

Ignore all this if you want - like I said, I am probably wrong - but if you are going to slag then back it up with something solid. If you have seen the footage, what is your take on these issues?
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: The Amstor Computer on 13 May, 2004, 02:02:49 AM
WATCH OUT FOR THE OUTRAGED LIBERALS!

Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: Queen Firey-Bou on 13 May, 2004, 02:48:25 AM
you get a lot of snuff pass thru lerwick airport then?
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: Richmond Clements on 13 May, 2004, 02:54:45 AM
Great book.
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: The Amstor Computer on 13 May, 2004, 03:02:14 AM
Lerwick? I must admit, I'm confused about where "Demonizer" is supposed to be from:

"A war crime that is apparently the result of dubious media scoops and will have reverberations throughout the world and affect this war **your country** is fighting."

About the only place we can be sure he won't turn up is Bristol :-)
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: -=>DEMONIZER<=- on 13 May, 2004, 05:48:09 AM

No such thing, my dear.

But of course, you have a friend who knows someone who's seen one.

;)
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: Art on 13 May, 2004, 06:12:54 AM
LIBERAL STALIN SAYS: Report for a fun and exciting re-education holiday immediately - or face death, revisionist scum! Party on dudes!
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: LARF on 13 May, 2004, 07:10:03 AM
I've seen the video, a man dies and it's not Hollywood, it's harrowing and terrifying that there is a capacity within humans on this planet to do something as sickening to another human being.

Cut the crap, the man is dead, no conspiracy theories, no la di dar paranoia, whatever happened he is dead, and his family loved him.

God rest Nick Berg.
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: -=>DEMONIZER<=- on 13 May, 2004, 07:34:08 AM

Fine and very appropriate sentiments, I agree entirely with your 14 words.

You haven't addressed the issues, which is also fine.

Sometimes the horror can warp the stark reality.
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: -=>DEMONIZER<=- on 13 May, 2004, 07:36:51 AM

Before all hell breaks loose again, that should read LAST 14 words - apologies.

:)
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: Matt on 13 May, 2004, 03:21:06 PM
Man you are one c*nt of a troll. I'm very far from being an outraged liberal, I merely responded to your egotistical conspiracy theories. As I stated in an earlier post I have worked for the police in the past, examining videos containing the horrific abuse of children in order to enhance images and audio to help secure convictions. I also have had to examine material for signs of manipulation. These are images that will never leave me and I'm sickened by anybody who would seek out such material for any purpose, academic or otherwise. Yes I have unfortunately seen the video in question, and it is by far one of the most disturbing and horrifying pieces of footage I have ever seen. I stand by my earlier claim that it contains nothing that would make me doubt it.
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: Jared Katooie on 13 May, 2004, 04:18:20 PM
Can we please just sit back and let this man dig his own grave? Puhlease.

If you post here attacking him you are a FOOL.
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: Matt on 13 May, 2004, 04:21:23 PM
Sorry jared, I've not come across Demonizer before, is this something he does quite often?
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: Jared Katooie on 13 May, 2004, 04:28:20 PM
"Sorry jared, I've not come across Demonizer before, is this something he does quite often?"

This is the first time he's blatantly displayed his true colours but this has been building for some time.

I know not everyone knows this so I'm telling you know. DO NOT GET INVOLVED. It only leads to madness.
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: Max Kon on 13 May, 2004, 06:17:03 PM
lets just let this tread die?
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: -=>DEMONIZER<=- on 13 May, 2004, 07:44:25 PM

You say you "unfortunately" saw the video - it was as essential part of your harrowing working day then, I take it?

After you have got over your outrage and down from your moral high ground, perhaps you will be in the frame of mind to acknowledge this horrific, highly significant piece of evidence has been manipulated for some reason.

If I was stating simply that digitised, computerised media is a common breeding ground for bogus "real" footage, you could wave my speculations away. However, I am not relying on that - I have observed several blatant abnormalities in this video and they deserve attention and explanation. Though obviously not from the likes of you.

Don't bleat on to me about your experiences in watching atrocious footage, and then express disgust that I might also know what I am talking about through research of my own.

As for this "true colours" shit, Katooie - where are you going with it? What are you expecting?

All jokes aside about that "hivemind" business and everything else - some people around here are astonishingly weak, parochial sheep with nothing but a childish and increasingly meaningless moniker to throw about when the going gets tough.
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: The Monarch on 13 May, 2004, 07:48:24 PM
Can he be banned now?!? surly slagging off boarders deserves a banning
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: -=>DEMONIZER<=- on 13 May, 2004, 07:50:11 PM

Get back to your pen - nothing to see here.
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: Matt Timson on 13 May, 2004, 07:51:09 PM
"I generally view conspiracy theorists with some disdain"

Link: Cor!  Who said that then?

Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: Wake on 13 May, 2004, 08:01:43 PM
Any further posts to this thread will be deleted unless they directly pertain to Demonizer's claim that the video shows evidence of being faked.

Wake
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: crill on 15 May, 2004, 12:55:12 AM
Can't comment myself, as I haven't seen the footage. But I came across this page while I was surfing through boredom and thought it had relevance.

http://infowars.com/print/iraq/berg.htm

Best,
Paul
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: crill on 15 May, 2004, 01:15:25 AM
Just remember this _is_ a conspiracy theory website, though.

Paul
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: Max Kon on 15 May, 2004, 08:14:42 AM
interesting site that
Title: Re: NICK BERG
Post by: -=>DEMONIZER<=- on 15 May, 2004, 10:21:23 PM

I've done some web surfing myself.

Try typing "Nick Berg fake" into google.

Link: rising doubt