Greetings Comrades

[TordelBack]

Welcome to the gulag, 'Sanya.

[Kerrin]

Greetings Comrade.

We will now stand for the Internationale played by Comrade Brian on the ukelele with the people's kazoo quartet.

[Peter Wolf]

Welcome.


Another sympathiser to add to my list....

Democracy is a product of a decadent western way of life.

Keep it in mind Comrade Aleksandr that the needs of The Party shall always take precedence over the needs of the self.Keep those words in the forefront of your mind or you shall be meeting myself and Comrade Yuri and Comrade Dimitri at the rehabilitation camp....

Glasnost they cheered in Red Square but Mother Russia shall rise again victorious..............

I want gradual undemocratic change to Communism in the UK/EUSSR.

[Bouwel]

No, I was calling my self Aleksandr long before that advert. Its a reference to Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, a Russian author and Soviet dissident.

Argh!
Flash-backs to English lit. and the compulsory reading of One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich. Thankfully the other books on the syllabus were Brave New World and Romeo and Juliet, both of which I loved.

-Bouwel-

[Comrade Aleksandr]

No, I was calling my self Aleksandr long before that advert. Its a reference to Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, a Russian author and Soviet dissident.

Argh!
Flash-backs to English lit. and the compulsory reading of One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich. Thankfully the other books on the syllabus were Brave New World and Romeo and Juliet, both of which I loved.

-Bouwel-

Are you kidding me? Day in the life is a terrific read!
Though, being a sci-fi nerd I prefered Brave New World. Along with 1984 naturally. Thats one of the reasons Savage has been a favourite of mine since he said 'Oranges and lemons say the bells of St Clemmens.'
And any way, if Marx was right (which he was) then the Communist state will eventually emerge naturally anyhow, without any need of bloodshed. Revolutions almost never result in what they intended.
Russian Revolution: Went from Lenin's wisdom (sought of) to Stalins insanity.
French Revolution: France ended up in just a bad state as it was under the King.
Mao's Revolution: Ended up as a dictatorship which brought about the Great Leap Forward/Famines and the Culutral Revolution.
English Civil War: Dictatorship under Cromwell as 'Lord Protector' which became a hereditary title, making the regime completly hypocritical.
Though that being said, the American Revolution did succeed in creating a working democracy.
Perhaps no one has all the answers (except for me )
Aleks

[Dog Deever]

Ah, but people forget that it was Lenin himself who preached revolutionary marxism, Soviet Russia was not so much Marxist as Marxist-Leninist. It was Lenin who installed the Red Terror and began the purges from the very moment the Tsarist dictatorship was overthrown with the execution of many of the leading participants in the initial uprising. Lenin's brutality is forgotten about because Stalin was so much more mental.

We seem to be living in an age where Capitalism's credibility as a workable system is collapsing, what with corporate greed and banker-wankers feeding the international economic collapse- even in America controls have been placed on the wages of the fat cats.
The government getting involved in the affairs of the free market is very definitly a move toward socialism- though not necessarily left-wing socialism. It can't be forgotten that the National Socialists (Nazi's) had a socialist element before the Night of the Long Knives, where Hitler had this element cut from the party. The Italian Fascists also had their roots in Syndicalist thinking- the root of Anarchism as well as Marxism.

The collapse of out-and-out Capitalism seems to be leading us down the rocky road of right-wing ideology. To whit- the election of the BNP into Europe, as well as the rise of this type of ideology in eastern Europe and the elections of French and Italian politicians with connections to right wing extremism. Not to mention the so called Nanny State: Fascism-lite, if such a thing can exist- and the general acceptance of state interference in peoples lives to a rather alarming degree (key to this has been the creation of an atmosphere of fear- gangs, guns, crime, drugs and terrorism- it's in the state's best interests to allow these things to fester and grow).

Anyway- everyone knows that the true path to Socialism can only come about through dressing badly, playing awful music and being fucking disagreeable social misfits!  

[Peter Wolf]

Capitalisms credibility as a working system is only collapsing among those who would like it to collapse.Anyone else who has more of an understanding of how and why Capitalism has suffered a partial collapse recently will understand that it is because the banking system in the last 10 to 15 years has been following an economic model that was imposed by central bankers that was unsustainable and designed to fail and this is without going into the details of and cause and effect and fallout of Globalism.

So really it is incorrect to say Capitalism has failed per se because the ideology hasnt failed but the Capitalist system we live under has been grossly mismanaged.The monetary system and the economy has been mismanaged and it has partially collapsed because of Greed and criminality.

What needs to happen is the need for Capitalism to be reconciled and offset against the needs of the less well off because at the moment the mega rich or super rich and corporations do not hardly pay any taxes whatsoever as the mega rich are getting richer as they bank offshore so the tax burden is mostly paid by the working class and middle class in employment.

This is clearly wrong and needs to be addressed.

You all know this as you have witnessed a mass transfer/theft of wealth over to the Banksters and Elites while we become poorer as a result.

While to a large extent i dont subscribe to Left wing ideology i dont support the greed and unfairness that results from unrestrained unregulated capitalism that rewards criminal Banksters and Elites and the criminal banking/political system that we have now.

Personally i think a fair political system will be partly socialist and partly Capitalist .

I dont subscribe to the politics of envy but i would like to see a system that has a fairer distribution of wealth and one that doesnt encourage wholesale dependency on the state and one that allows for self determination and the entepraneurial spirit.

If you look beyond contemporary superficial party politics you will see that the political and economic system is owned wholesale by Criminals who control *everything* from behind the scenes and who hold the majority of the planets wealth.

That situation is now beginning to collapse and the kind of revolution i want is one where they are collectivly removed from their positions and their wealth that they have stolen from us is redistributed fairly and a return to politics and Democracy that represents US instead of THEM because at the moment we are living in a Kleptocracy that is leaning heavily towards Fascism or Totalitarianism and it has to stop.

End the cycle of debt and slavery.

Its a good time to get in on this as there is going to be a revolution and a power shift back to us in the not too distant future.

[Dog Deever]

I would only agree partly with that, Peter- it's not just the banking system that's at fault- that smacks of 'Jewish-banking-conspiracy' type garbage that's been around since medieval times in some form or other.
It is also the ability of the greedy bosses to award themselves with whatever they like and politicians to take what they want from the economy, destroying it in the process- look at the expenses scandal, and the collapse of Rover (a direct result of bosses awarding themselves massive payouts as a 'reward' for turning the company round earlier, only for the company to crash from bankruptcy later).
There is also the numerous scandals with cash and contract fudging from huge companies.
To blame it entirely on the banking system is a gross over-simplification, which is nothing short of scapegoating. There are a large number of causes for the economic downturn.

Capitalism is the politics of greed and it is exactly that sort of self-serving greed that is causing the problem.

Personally i think a fair political system will be partly socialist and partly Capitalist .

I don't subscribe to the politics of envy but i would like to see a system that has a fairer distribution of wealth and one that doesn't encourage wholesale dependency on the state and one that allows for self determination and the entrepreneurial spirit.

Er... that is socialism and left-wing.

A 'free market' with government imposed regulation is not a 'free market', Capitalism with state controls is not pure Capitalism.

'Socialism' is a broad term which is not clearly defined- it does not describe any particular system, as you seem to believe, it runs the gamut of a wide range of moderate and extreme political view points ranging from Social Democracy to Pol Pot's/ Stalin's views.
The NHS is a socialist idea, free care for children and the old is a socialist idea, the welfare state is a socialist idea, any degree of trade unionism is socialist, minimum wage is a socialist idea.
Communists and Marxists are socialists, but a socialist is not necessarily a communist, nor even a Marxist.
If you're going to debate this stuff, you need to have a clearer idea of the terminology.

Currently, Europe's political systems are a mix of socialist ideas, Capitalist ideas and Fascist ideas with the supporters of each vying for a more prominent role for their own particular mindset. It's an ever-changing mix, though and there seems to be a shift toward state-capitalism, as in Federal Russia and China.

[Peter Wolf]

"I would only agree partly with that, Peter- it's not just the banking system that's at fault- that smacks of 'Jewish-banking-conspiracy' type garbage that's been around since medieval times in some form or other.
It is also the ability of the greedy bosses to award themselves with whatever they like and politicians to take what they want from the economy, destroying it in the process- look at the expenses scandal, and the collapse of Rover (a direct result of bosses awarding themselves massive payouts as a 'reward' for turning the company round earlier, only for the company to crash from bankruptcy later).
There is also the numerous scandals with cash and contract fudging from huge companies.
To blame it entirely on the banking system is a gross over-simplification, which is nothing short of scapegoating. There are a large number of causes for the economic downturn."

Not sure if you are hearing what i am saying here.

You are right that it is not just the banking system that is at fault because the system is inherently corrupt and the political and banking system is owned wholesale by those who hold the power.Those who collectively own the banking system are known as the Anglo Dutch Banking cartel.Forget about Jewish this or Jewish that as race or whatever is irrelevant.We are talking about Criminals and it doesnt matter who or what they are.Those who control and own banking institutions like the Federal Reserve control and instigate and implement banking and lending policy.The FED decide that they want to introduce Fractional reserve lending and encourage borrowing to create a cycle of debt that produces money out of nothing.They introduce it because what they do the rest follow such is their degree of power and influence over the worlds economy.The amount of influence they have varies from one country to another.The UK adopted [via Gordon Brown]this particular banking policy wholesale which you will have seen for yourself by the scale of Govt/taxpayer bailouts that have done NOTHING to address the root cause of the problem and not to mention that there has been no trickle down effect or stimulation of the economy as far as we are concerned both here and in the US because it the process has been a simple transferance of wealth and assets from us to them.

The FED and the BOE are privately owned businesses owned and controlled by the Anglo-Dutch Banking Cartel.

So its utterly ridiculous and absurd to say i am "Scapegoating the banking system" or that its a "gross simplification".It was only simple because i kept it simple.You are attempting to shift the blame onto a political ideology wholesale.

The other points that you touch on are symptoms of a corrupt political class [career politicos] who kow-tow to the needs of the big money men because the political system allows for corporate lobbying at the expense of the electorate and who are unaccountable to the electorate and now more than ever.Big money rules and owns politics be it either Bankers or big business although the two are interlinked anyway.


"Capitalism is the politics of greed and it is exactly that sort of self-serving greed that is causing the problem."

What so its alright to generalise about Capitalism but not about Socialism or Marxism or Communism ?

It obviously is to you but i dont have the time nor space to reply to that comment.

"Personally i think a fair political system will be partly socialist and partly Capitalist ."

"I don't subscribe to the politics of envy but i would like to see a system that has a fairer distribution of wealth and one that doesn't encourage wholesale dependency on the state and one that allows for self determination and the entrepreneurial spirit.

Er... that is socialism and left-wing."


No its not .

How can you say that ?

Its more like the system that we live under presently in the UK which is both Capitalist and Socialist at the same time.The welfare state is Socialist by definition.Capitalism allows for self determination and enterprise and enterprise and tax on earnings subsidise the Welfare state.The fairer distribution of wealth of which i speak means taxing the financial sector and big business  a lot more than they are at present so that the working person is not unfairly burdened under excessive taxation by way of example.

Any good society will at least be partly Socialist as in having a Welfare system and in this country a National Health service which is fairly unique.

"A 'free market' with government imposed regulation is not a 'free market', Capitalism with state controls is not pure Capitalism."

I didnt say anything about a "Free Market" because i was talking about the Financial/Banking system and not the marketplace or the marketplace within the financial sector to be more specific.Not the same thing at all.

I still stand by what i said previously.

The money markets and banking sector has not just collapsed because of lack of regulation  as there is plenty of regulation but because of the wrong kind of regulation and regulation that makes allowances for criminality.The banking/investment/financial sector has to a certain extent been given the freedom to regulate itself leading to the problems we have now in which case it is perfectly clear as day that the financial sector needs to  be regulated more stringently than it is at present .

The Govt in this country actively stopped the FSA from doing their job effectively.


I do know about the differences between various spin offs of Marxism .


"Currently, Europe's political systems are a mix of socialist ideas, Capitalist ideas and Fascist ideas with the supporters of each vying for a more prominent role for their own particular mindset. It's an ever-changing mix, though and there seems to be a shift toward state-capitalism, as in Federal Russia and China."

The EU in principle is inherently Socialist by nature hence its lack of democratic procedure.You have like you say various different factions who work within it who have varying amounts of influence towards policy making within it but it is predominantly Socialist as they make up the numbers.

The EU is Collectivism.

The European Union Of Socialist Republics.

Enough said.

The shift towards state capitalism is called Communitarianism which is a union of capitalist ideology and Marxist ideology [centralisation of Govt and control and regulation and dictats].Its predominantly Marxist but allows for Capitalists to work within its socio-economic framework.

The EU is Communitarian because the state is not seizing ownership of businesses like Communism does.All the overseas investment and big business in China is not state owned but you could call it state sponsored capitalism or that it supports private enterprise but its not "State Capitalism".As you know China has become very rich and had its own industrial revolution  from foreign investment and its Globalism/Capitalism that has made this possible .


I tried to keep this short while addressing your points you raised.

[Dog Deever]

Again- you seem to see 'Socialism' as a particular political system and continually attack 'socialism' as if it is. It isn't.

Again- 'socialism' covers everything from 'social democracy' to 'communist' and 'anarchist'. You just don't seem to understand this at all.

You can't define 'socialism' as a separate entity from anything, because most modern political thinking encapsulates an element of 'socialist' thinking. Therefore, of course modern European politics contains an element of socialist thinking.

A fairer society is the goal of socialist thinkers- that makes you a socialist, by your own words. What type of socialism you believe in depends on how you see this 'fairer society' coming about- You obviously believe in democracy and a market economy- that makes you a social-democrat, i.e. a person who believes in a fairer society governed by the individuals right to choose his or her government through a fair voting system which everyone has the right to take part in.

Fascism, Marxism, Communism and Capitalism are all defined ideologies- so it is possible to make certain generalisations about these systems. Only there are no longer any states which embody these any of these ideologies. Politics are no longer black and white.
To say that 'socialism' is defined by a lack democratic procedure is laughable. Social democracy is 'socialist', 'democratic' and 'market-economic'. Different social democracies place emphasis on any one or even several different doctrines (you can add religion into that too).

The point I was making about the free market was that even in America- the champion of the free market- there is an element of socialist thinking. Modern politics is a mish-mash of ideas- the politics of extremism (Religion, Nazism, Communism, Fascism and now Capitalism) as pure systems have pretty much all been discredited and shown up as unworkable and unpalatable. Yet you talk as if this is not the case, that there are still economic systems which embody pure ideology. Most people nowadays wouldn't subscribe wholly to any of these viewpoints. There are still individuals who support these dogmas fighting their corner, despite the fact that the general population has demonstrated that it does not fully support any of them.

I do know about the differences between various spin offs of Marxism .

You certainly don't give that impression.
Communism also encapsulates 'socialist' thinking- the move towards a fairer society where everyone is equal. Communists believe that the state needs to take tight control in order to achieve this. They also believe in collectivism- 'Soviets' in Russia were an attempt at smaller organised groups all controlled by the state through the party. An equivalent system also developed in China, as would be expected- Lenin and Mao were both taking from Marx and both were living in predominantly agrarian peasant societies. 'Collectivism' is not the same as 'federalism', despite some common ground on how power is devolved.

The EU in principle is inherently Socialist by nature hence its lack of democratic procedure.You have like you say various different factions who work within it who have varying amounts of influence towards policy making within it but it is predominantly Socialist as they make up the numbers.

The EU is Collectivism.

The European Union Of Socialist Republics.

Enough said.

Europe moves towards federalism, like America and Russia. In fact what you postulate here is such a load of shite, it simply isn't worth responding to- it's 'bloke in pub' politics. Total hogwash.

In China strict controls were developed on the market before the shift away from communism- it may well contain the beginnings of capitalism but everyone can see that China is still under tight state control- 'State-capitalism' or 'State-Imperialism'.
The same thing was attempted in Federal Russia, only the controls on the market were not put in place until it was too late- leading to the 'Oligarchs' gaining huge levels of power until Putin put the screws on and told them in no uncertain terms that they were not to interfere in the affairs of 'high politics'. Berezovsky said that Russia was in an age where Russia was moving away from the 'power of ideology' towards the 'power of capital'.

You are right that it is not just the banking system that is at fault...

yet your earlier post said...

Anyone else who has more of an understanding of how and why Capitalism has suffered a partial collapse recently will understand that it is because the banking system in the last 10 to 15 years has been following an economic model that was imposed by central bankers that was unsustainable and designed to fail and this is without going into the details of and cause and effect and fallout of Globalism.

Did you change your mind?

Pure Capitalism has been shown, without any doubt, to lead to high crime, black-marketing, poverty and social breakdown. In the past it survived by displacing these effects onto other nations but this can only seen as be 'papering over the cracks'. Pure Capitalism as a system is dead in the water. Most of the general population would now disagree with an uncontrolled free market economy and political thinkers are rejecting the pure doctrine. The banking system meltdown and economic collapse is the end result.

Anyway- we could go on ad infinitum.
A 'welcome' thread on a comics forum is not a good place to talk politics as it always leads to a fall out. I doubt anyone is reading this thread now except you and I (the posts are too long and unfortunately the subject bores people to death) and we're never going to agree any more than partially.

[Peter Wolf]

I use the term of description "Socialism " as a broad term of description so that i dont have to go into detail about the in and outs of each particular ism that all originated from Marxism.

Perhaps its laziness on my part or the wrong term of description but dont interpret this as a lack of understanding because it isnt.
"Dont *seem* to understand" is a good choice of words to use.

[for some reason i am unable to cut and paste individual quotes from your post]

Anyway i did not change my mind regarding my comments about "The banking system is at fault"etc because i have added various different contributory factors that i hadnt included in the previous post.The comments i posted in reply to your comments in which i added various contributory factors to the banking/economic collapse are self explanatory.

I should have used the word "partly" in my initial comment :"partly because the banking system blah de blah".

Its no big deal so lets not go into petty point scoring about semantics.


This is getting silly otherwise because you are clearly not understanding what i am saying because you are saying or construing what i am saying wrongly regarding the banking system  as myself being an advocate of "pure" Capitalism when everything i have said regarding the regulation or lack of it in the financial sector says the opposite.

Where are you getting this from ?




What you dont seem to understand is that the economic system that we live under at present which has suffered a partial collapse is not indicative of a failure of Capitalism as a political ideology per se.This is perfectly simple to understand and it never was"Pure" as you call it anyway.Not here and not in the US because it always has been controlled and regulated to a greater and lesser extent.Like i said my previous comments are self explanatory.You are denying that there is not more than one particular  economic model that is Capitalist in principle when i was talking about banking and lending policy specifically.



What you are saying about "pure" Capitalism is correct but at least have the decency to read and acknowledge the comments i have made regarding it and the economic collapse.

Your derogatory comments about "bloke in the pub politics" have been noted down and i could say the same about yours too.


"Europe moves towards federalism, like America and Russia. In fact what you postulate here is such a load of shite, it simply isn't worth responding to- it's 'bloke in pub' politics. Total hogwash."

Federalism is correct in a sense but federalism is not a political ideology unto itself as Federalism simply delegates legislative powers to individual nation states and the federal Govt of the US for example has powers that supercede the individual nation states which it comprises of .

Its an agreement or pact between nations to allow an overall centralised power structure to have supremacy over individual states held together by a Constitution.It has nothing whatsoever to do with the political outlook of the collective states that exist within it.

My term of description of the EU as being the EUSR was a cynical comment about the centralised govt and nature of the EU and was intended for satirical purposes only.It is at least partly Socialist like i said as its advocates in Labour who have sold out and subjegated the people of the UK into a federal centrally governed undemocratic Europe are all members of the Fabian society which is a socialist organisation and movement.The EU is certainly not right wing in nature or in principle because right wing ideology allows for individuality of individuals or nation states.



At least admit that.

The US was /is a good example of democracy under federalism that allows for a certain amount of autonomy under a federal govt.

So who is talking hogwash here ?



Capitalism in China is not under such strict state control as it used to be because it has relaxed its controls which is why the private sector of manufacturing in china has been able to expand as much and flourish as much as it already has.

"State-Imperialism" - Thats a Tortology isnt it ? 

"The State - Imperialism of Russian Tsarist empire "

You just want to smash Capitalism and you know it .




We are looking for a viable third way.



My sincere apologies if i have used your welcome thread Aleksandr as a political platform but DD made me do it.

Honest.

[Dog Deever]

OK, Peter, I understand perfectly what you're saying, it's just that you're talking shit- whatever.

Your continual back tracking (and not just on this subject either), claiming you were 'being satirical' when you get called for talking bullshit and utter ignorance of what your talking about have forced me to do the one thing I've never done across three incarnations of the board- hit the 'ignore user' button.

I'm not going to tell you what you should and shouldn't post here- it's none of my business, but it's probably a good idea to post your rambling, incoherent, frothing political diatribes on your blog rather than here- they certainly wind me up and probably bore everyone else rigid.

I didn't force you to post anything- you did it yourself and you will keep it going because you can't stand the fact that the flaws in your argument have been exposed, hence your backtracking and excuse making. I haven't claimed anything- just pointed out the inconsistencies and misinformation in your 'opinion'. You may well impress other people on other forums with your 'depth of knowledge' but I sincerely doubt your having that effect here (certainly not with me and I may well be the only one even remotely interested in this stuff).

There isn't any point replying to me as I'm hitting the 'ignore user' button- which is a pity really, because I was rather enjoying some of your drawing. Occultist and supernatural mentalism I can cope with because they are at least interesting, bullshit politics I can't. I strongly suggest you read a few books on politics- by people who know what they are talking about, rather than getting your views by trawling around the Internet where any mad fucker can post their latest 'theory'.

[Dandontdare]

See what you've started Comrade Alekasndr? 

I stopped reading Peter's confused and contradictory mish-mash after the second post, but Dog, I think your first post is just about the clearest and most concise summary of socialism as I've ever read. Congratulations for keeping your patience and trying to explain it for so long - I'd have given up long before you did!

I once tried the 'ignore' option for a couple of boarders, but it was too tantalising - I just couldn't resist popping back to have a sneaky peak at what new bullshit they were posting, so it didn't work out. I now ignore posts by simply glazing over and scrolling down!

[Dog Deever]

Cheers, DDD- though I have to admit, it was wearing thin!

I know what you mean about the ignore user function- but I really can't stop myself from responding to inane drivel.

[Peter Wolf]

OK, Peter, I understand perfectly what you're saying, it's just that you're talking shit- whatever.

Your continual back tracking (and not just on this subject either), claiming you were 'being satirical' when you get called for talking bullshit and utter ignorance of what your talking about have forced me to do the one thing I've never done across three incarnations of the board- hit the 'ignore user' button.

I'm not going to tell you what you should and shouldn't post here- it's none of my business, but it's probably a good idea to post your rambling, incoherent, frothing political diatribes on your blog rather than here- they certainly wind me up and probably bore everyone else rigid.

I didn't force you to post anything- you did it yourself and you will keep it going because you can't stand the fact that the flaws in your argument have been exposed, hence your backtracking and excuse making. I haven't claimed anything- just pointed out the inconsistencies and misinformation in your 'opinion'. You may well impress other people on other forums with your 'depth of knowledge' but I sincerely doubt your having that effect here (certainly not with me and I may well be the only one even remotely interested in this stuff).

There isn't any point replying to me as I'm hitting the 'ignore user' button- which is a pity really, because I was rather enjoying some of your drawing. Occultist and supernatural mentalism I can cope with because they are at least interesting, bullshit politics I can't. I strongly suggest you read a few books on politics- by people who know what they are talking about, rather than getting your views by trawling around the Internet where any mad fucker can post their latest 'theory'.

Dissapointing but i had a feeling it would happen.

This isnt adult behaviour and i have just re-read my last post and there is no bullshit in there.You have just spun it around.I dont see any excuse making apart from one .

You cant seem to debate without going into a stupid childish huff that belies your age in years.I have obviously hit a sore point somehow and i partly accomadate your views about Socialism and its still not good enough for you.

You could have not replied to my last post which was supposed to be final but you did and you are obviously angry about something as there is nothing in my posts here that suggest i am "frothing" or anything else.

You missed the fact that my last post was good natured which is why it had Smilies in it.

In short you are full of shit.

Your Myspace page and music say it all really.

Then up pops another left winger [again] type as in DDD.You are just as pathetic as he is not to mention your previous displays of arrogance.My posts are a mish mash because i am not politically polarised .Simple.

You people are all the same and that is the one thing that i have realised after debating with them online.Childishness and insults and blocking of comments.


Pathetic.

Bye Bye Children.