Reading the excellent prog slog that ended in the low 700s made me grimace that it ended around the time 2000ad got....hummm.... pretty poor. I stuck with the prog till the low 900s then bailed till around 1450. It struck me recently that the odd strip aside 2000ad has been pretty awesome since then (2005).
I've started a re-read from 1400 (Wagner / Cam Dredd (Drekk City). Caballistics Inc, Flint on ABC Warriors, Strontium Dog and Bec and Kawl) and it's all (mostly) great stuff that stands up 15 years later. Even the megazine (still in the era of charley's War / hell trekkers reprints) is excellent with Wagner / Weston Dredd (Six), Ranson Anderson, cursed earth Koburn, Simping detective and Black Siddha.
So the question is - given 2000ad definitely had a low period (you can argue when)... when did it get good again? Properly good. Four out of five strips if they were new next week you'd lap them up good?
I suppose everyone will have their own opinion. For me, the 800s and 900s were rocky, albeit with glimpses of greatness. The Pit was of course towards the end of that time. And there were other crackers fighting to be seen among the dross. Many of them were John Smith efforts, but also you had the likes of Button Man 2 and Luke Kirby. (I also still personally rate a lot of Armoured Gideon, even though I know it's not quite so widely loved!)
Rummaging around Barney, the rot continued into the 1000s though. Early post-1000 Progs had Wagner Dredd but some so-so Sláine, Steve White's divisive Rogue Trooper, and the forgettable pairing of Black Light and Outlaw. 1034's reboot, though, is interesting, bringing with it a run of Al's Baby, Dredd, Mercy Heights, Nikolai Dante and Sláine. It dips again around 1060 (A Life Less Ordinary; Spacegirls), but from 1100, you're on pretty sold ground again.
Per Colin's re-read thread, I think you can probably say that the prog was on a solid footing again by '98/99 — the odd mis-fire and occasional stinker, but reliably more good than bad strips for the vast majority of the time. As I said on Colin's thread, it's remarkable to think that, although there have certainly been periods which have failed to enthuse the Squaxx since then, we haven't seen a bad year* in 2000AD for about twenty years.
*For the sake of argument, let's call it a whole year where you've thought there were more bad stories than good pretty much every week. There's often been a gem or two lurking in an otherwise turgid spell.
Yep. Matt Smith's spell as editor in particular has been quite something, given that creators keep buggering off to the USA. He's helmed a remarkably solid run, and I suspect most people griping about 2000 AD are just jaded, or have rose-tinted glasses for the good old days. The amount of crap he gets from some quarters just astounds me.
(Going back to re-read old Progs, there are some genuinely classic runs. But even in the so-called golden age of 2000 AD, there's a lot of shit to wade through. And even many of the series people cite as great don't actually read that well these days – they need a shot of nostalgia, to say the least.)
Agreed, I'd say it was around 1999 when the norm became "several top thrills plus a duffer or two", as opposed to "the occasional gem in a sea of mediocrity"
I couldn't possibly point to a period when 2000AD came out of an "extended bad patch" and into fresh pastures. I've consistently enjoyed the prog throughout its lifespan so far- even in the 90s, when all common sense tells me it "wasn't very good", I remember buying it weekly and loving it. Even if it was merely a quick twenty minute distraction from whatever the week had thrown at me.
I suppose it can't be argued that it amped up the thrills when Matt Smith took over- and while he receives some stick, I have immense respect for the man. The comic has to be exciting and relevant, after 42 years. And it bloody is. Yeah, it's not always on point- I am less with impressed with the current Anderson story for example, and not looking forward to more Indigo Prime. But! Lots of people really like them! And we have HOPE... just around the corner, which wouldn't have been commissioned ANYWHERE ELSE. We have more BRINK coming, more Scarlet Traces, some very very exciting new Slaine, Dredd is still moving forward, not stagnating (even though I hate seeing his face in 'The Samaritan') with an exciting "new" writer, or maybe an old one, who knows?
Yeah, I wish Matt would change the format and design a bit (a lot, a whole lot) but that's because I want the prog to LEAP off the shelves and hit people in the face, mugging them for their groats and forcing them to the counter.
So I guess maybe I'd have to say the new golden age started when Rebellion took over. It may have stumbled a bit at the beginning, but they made up for it and then some. "A shot glass of rocket fuel" is more than just a clever soundbite, it actually did set out the plan for the future, and for the most part they've achieved it.
SBT
For me personally the prog has been solid since 2003 (I got all the digital progs over time). You get some mini dips but that does not last for the long where the stories do not feel as solid, especially when the theme of the stories are very similar. Currently the prog is very strong.
I've always loved 2000 AD and only stopped reading for a few years when it became economically out of reach: an error (in the universe) that I'm steadily rectifying. So, from about 1980 (when I started) to 2014 (where I'm at now) - I can't say there's an entirely bad prog. Usually, there isn't a 100% great prog either.
Even in the case of clunker stories, often the art is great: and so at least you have something to admire as you go through it. And then things land sometimes in the realm of curiosities, or reader Marmite. But in amongst all of that opinion and conjecture there sits me being entirely correct about everything.
Here's a snapshot of the first half of the 80s:
Prog 178 (1980) scores 91%:
ü Strontium Dog: Death's Head
ü The Mean Arena: [Tallon]
û Dash Decent
ü Judge Dredd: The Judge Child - Fallen Angels
ü Meltdown Man
ü Killer Watt
Prog 225 (1981) scores 80%:
ü Strontium Dog: The Gronk Affair
ü Nemesis the Warlock: [Book 1]
ü Judge Dredd: Judge Death Lives
û Tharg's Future Shocks: Seeing is Believing
ü Meltdown Man
Prog 277 (1982) scores 100%:
ü Robo-Hunter: The Killing of Kidd
ü Rogue Trooper: All Hell on the Dix-I Front
ü The Mean Arena: [Mother Vlad's Vampires]
ü Judge Dredd: Fungus
ü Ace Trucking Co.: Too Many Bams
Prog 329 (1983) scores 78%:
ü Robo-Hunter: The Slaying of Slade
ü Tharg's Future Shocks: Dad
ü Skizz
û Judge Dredd: The Weather Man
ü Rogue Trooper: Eye of the Traitor
Prog 382 (1984) scores 50%:
ü Strontium Dog: Outlaw
ü The Ballad of Halo Jones: [Book I]
û Tharg's Future Shocks: Class of '65
û Judge Dredd: Dredd Angel
ü Rogue Trooper: Death Valley
û Ace Trucking Co.: On The Dangle
I agree with everything Indigo Prime said.
However, while the recovery was gradual, and didn't happen overnight, I did think at the time that the comic had made it through the mire and was finally going to be alright when I read the first episode of The Pit in prog 970.
Quote from: Richard on 04 July, 2019, 06:36:13 PM
However, while the recovery was gradual, and didn't happen overnight, I did think at the time that the comic had made it through the mire and was finally going to be alright when I read the first episode of The Pit in prog 970.
Yeah... The Pit definitely brought with it a feeling of the corner being turned.
Checking BARNEY, that's not really a
bad prog. On top of a Wagner/Ezquerra Dredd, there's Walker painting up a storm on ABC Warriors, the generally-not-awful Steve White stint on Rogue Trooper and a Vector 13 of which I have no recollection, but which is unlikely to be terrible with Abnett and Ridgway and only a double-length Wireheads finale as the fly in the ointment.
See I'd say 970 is still not great. Kev Walker's painted stuff was always not great for me (and I love his later style on Dredd), Wireheads and Vector 13 weren't great and I can't recall that rogue at all save to say rogue never recovered from looking like it was in the same universe as Chronos Carnival.
Plus I hate that cover design - easily the worst in 2000ads History.
I can appreciate people saying The Pit is turning a corner but you wouldn't hand 970 to someone and say 'start here'.
Quote from: BPP on 04 July, 2019, 07:04:18 PM
See I'd say 970 is still not great.
No... that's why I said it wasn't
bad. Certainly in the context of some of what we'd slogged through to get here, which was often great long stretches of progs with nowt but an occasional John Smith gem to relieve the tedium.
IIRC the Pit was my return to Tooth after an extended hiatus. I do recall having picked through a selection whilst down the Falklands in 92/3 but steering pretty clear for a long time after that.
I wouldn't call it a true return to form at that point and I would agree with the argument that actually the early days were not amazing, nor were the Golden eighties that golden at times. They were still a long way though from the true depths of the nineties.
Thinking about it, prog 2000 seemed to be the start of the new golden age and a couple of times over the last two decades (ouch!) we've been blessed with some absolutely superb runs of outstanding proggage. Arguably we've been spoilt at times and I do think that comes across in our assessment of current output.
Mind you, here's a challenge for you: name an equivalent US comic that has been able to match tooth for quality of input over such a sustained period. I'm willing to acknowledge that they may be out there and I just haven't been fortunate enough to stumble across them.
Due to the oil tanker nature of turning a comic around where fleischer has been carpet bombing the editorial desk, just having Wagner back (just before the film?) was a massive relief.
It is hard to know how much my sense of improvement was based on the reduction of Millar/McKenzie vs my knowledge that the latter had moved on from editorial
To be honest Jim has more than ably nailed down my view of this. 1996 and 1997 start to pick the Prog up from its nadir, but there's a LOT of problems still there, but the good stuff is coming back at a decent rate.
You can certainly make a strong case that we on fine form again by 1998, in large part by the triumvate of Wagner Dredd, Sinister Dexter and Nikolai Dante, normally two of which appeared in any particular issue.
By 1999 David Bishop has nailed it and the Prog is on absolutely astonishly good form. Now I've not got much further in my re-read but 2000, while not as strong as 1999 I'm pretty sure is pretty good and I doubt we'll have a real stinker of a year from then until now. Its not necessary NuGoldenAgeTM I'd suggest that comes later, but I'll see as my re-read progresses but its safe to say the Prog has been good since 1998.
Which again as Jim points out is astonishing when you consider the terrifying fact that 1998 was over 20 years ago... christ I was a different beast in 1998. The Prog was too but we'll both find stability soon enough.
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 04 July, 2019, 10:04:24 PM
...when you consider the terrifying fact that 1998 was over 20 years ago...
Now that IS terrifying!
Pass the Werther's Originals, Matron
Quote from: Dandontdare on 05 July, 2019, 12:28:58 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 04 July, 2019, 10:04:24 PM
...when you consider the terrifying fact that 1998 was over 20 years ago...
Now that IS terrifying!
Pass the Werther's Originals, Matron
Oh I was in my prime day in '98
What did you do grandad
I... I...
I don't remember
We are further today from the launch of 2000 AD than 2000 AD was from the launch of The Beano.
:o
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 05 July, 2019, 11:46:01 AM
the launch of The Beano.
It never did get to the moon, did it.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 04 July, 2019, 03:19:16 PM
û Dash Decent
I think you've mixed up your cross and your tick there.
Definitely '99 for me, and if I was to venture an opinion as to why (as opposed to simply strong editorial), it would be the rock-solid runs of Dante and Sinister Dexter that were established by then, giving viable alternatives to the Wagner Dredd Carrying A Weak Prog situation that can only get you so far.
Quote from: Dash Decent on 05 July, 2019, 02:06:51 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 04 July, 2019, 03:19:16 PM
û Dash Decent
I think you've mixed up your cross and your tick there.
Clearly! :D
My Yay/Nay system doesn't quite tell the whole story, either. How to rate a single prog with a single value?
It could be yay/nay per thrill, or it could be yay/nay/meh. And some thrills are only 1 page (like everyone's favorite thrill ever: Dash decent), so do they count for as much as a 6-pager? Do we separate out a thrill by art and script? (Obviously not by lettering: because it's always wonderful.)
What strikes me about reading back is that things like Caballistics and Lobster Random are 15 years old.
I guess it's a separate question but is there a 'transition' phase where Dredd / Dante / SinDex carry the prog before we get to a slew of 'modern' 2000ad strips like Lobster, Asylum, Caballistics that can hardly be told apart from say Brink / `Scarlet Traces / cradlegrave despite a decades difference in time? Is it an art thing (computer colouring finally bedding in) or a droid thing (Abnett / Spurrier / Williams / Eddington). In a way Prog 1001 still feels very different to me from 1400 in a way 1400 doesn't from 2100.
Quote from: BPP on 05 July, 2019, 10:46:22 PM
...is there a 'transition' phase where Dredd / Dante / SinDex carry the prog before we get to a slew of 'modern' 2000ad strips like Lobster, Asylum, Caballistics...
I'd posit prog 1200 as being the hinge: in July 2000.
In 1999 the prog was heavily reliant on existing thrills: the only new episodic thrill in the prog was
The Balls Brothers. Things were feeling relatively fresh because SinDex and Dante were only a few years old (4 and 2, respectively).
In 2000, leading up to prog 1200 we get two new thrills:
Glimmer Rats and
Badlands. Post-1200 we get
Red Fang,
Roadkill,
Vanguard and
Rain Dogs. Whilst you can debate the quality: the difference is that we're getting fresher material mixed in with the established thrills at a much higher rate than before.
(Stats-wise, the average age of the thrills in the first half of 2000 was 12.71, and in the second half it was 8.84.)
We do have to wait a while before stickier thrills come along, but the attempt is being made in 2000, and continues in 2001 with
Necronauts,
Carver Hale,
A Love Like Blood and
Killer.
Once we hit 2002 things start to appear that get more than one series:
Shakara,
Ataver,
Bec & Kawl,
Asylum and
The Red Seas. (With
Storming Heaven,
13/Thirteen,
Bison and
The Scrap as new one series thrills.) Cabs and Lobster are hot on their heels in 2003.
Summary: the hinge appears in mid-2000 and by the time we get to 2002 we're seeing new multi-series thrills exploding onto the scene.
The hinge:
(http://www.2000ad.org/covers/2000ad/hires/1200.jpg)
Ahh cool did not see this thread.
Can't believe I didn't just look at the board properly.
Broad agreement here that the Prog started getting better again once Sin Dex and Dante became regular features. For me, the second Golden Age of 2000AD hit around Progs 1500-1850, if we're talking week-in, week-out 4/5 thrills are on top form. The Prog is in fine fettle just now, probably it's just me that's feeling more silver than golden.
Always happy to repeat the point that although 90s 2000AD was objectively the worst period of Progs (for writing, not necessarily for art), at the time I still looked forward to and savoured each week's new Prog...
Off topic, but as a recent returning reader I have to say the prog looks bloody cool around prog 1200 - love the logo and the cover layout. The only thing I don't like is the US format. It only lasted a few months like this though? Shame
I dunno. That cover lines font is fine for the headings, but horrible for body copy, and I always felt that logotype was broadly anonymous. As for the format, that didn't bother me so much. (Although be mindful it was US format only in terms of proportions, not dimensions.)
That was the worst logo ever. I don't think it even qualifies as a logo really, it's just a font.
Quote from: AlexF on 08 July, 2019, 11:18:36 AM
Broad agreement here that the Prog started getting better again once Sin Dex and Dante became regular features. For me, the second Golden Age of 2000AD hit around Progs 1500-1850, if we're talking week-in, week-out 4/5 thrills are on top form. The Prog is in fine fettle just now, probably it's just me that's feeling more silver than golden.
Ditto. Though I personal push that golden era back to 1400. Because Total War is real real good. I'd also argue Prog 1651 is the great Prog based purely on line-up of all time.
Dredd / Kingdom / Nikolai Dante / Shakara / Strontium Dog. Oh yes. And people say the 200s and 300s were the best the Prog ever had to offer. Tish and piffle.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 09 July, 2019, 08:51:22 PM
Dredd / Kingdom / Nikolai Dante / Shakara / Strontium Dog. Oh yes. And people say the 200s and 300s were the best the Prog ever had to offer. Tish and piffle.
I was just looking at that line-up and thinking much the same thing.
Quote from: Richard on 09 July, 2019, 07:46:53 PM
That was the worst logo ever. I don't think it even qualifies as a logo really, it's just a font.
That was weird - I remember that redesign lasting for barely any time at all - think it totally changed again as of 1234? Was there ever any explanation for that? In any case I quite like it.
I still maintain that the actual worst logo ever is the bendy hand-drawn, occasionally chrome looking one they had for much of the run from 120-554(?). I know people have a lot of nostalgia for it, but I think it's a total eyesore. The
original original logo is kind of cool in a retro throwback way, the bendy one is just naff and dated imo.
Quote from: The Adventurer on 09 July, 2019, 08:39:08 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 08 July, 2019, 11:18:36 AM
Broad agreement here that the Prog started getting better again once Sin Dex and Dante became regular features. For me, the second Golden Age of 2000AD hit around Progs 1500-1850, if we're talking week-in, week-out 4/5 thrills are on top form. The Prog is in fine fettle just now, probably it's just me that's feeling more silver than golden.
Ditto. Though I personal push that golden era back to 1400. Because Total War is real real good. I'd also argue Prog 1651 is the great Prog based purely on line-up of all time.
Yeah I think there's a distinction between when it got good again and the neo-golden age (or whatever you want to call it). Got good again 1998 into 1999 (really good in 1999). I always define (for whatever stupid reason, there is of course no need to) the last Golden Age to have started 1632, EDIT - or if factual accuracy was ever to bother my posts 1634 - first Prog with both Zombo and Cradlegrave.
Let's see if that version of things survives my re-read as we head towards that time.
Logo-wise - I moved shortly after the period where that logo was used and had to leave my comics in storage for about three years. By the time I got to look through my comics again I remember thinking I didn't recall that period at all, design-wise!
Quote from: Richard on 09 July, 2019, 07:46:53 PM
That was the worst logo ever. I don't think it even qualifies as a logo really, it's just a font.
The logo's nothing special, but there's conceptual unity (IMO) with the logo and the page layout, especially the curved cropping of the cover art to the left of the page. I don't think there's much unity in the current prog's layout. The "2000 AD" font has no relation to the logo to the left, and it seems odd (to me) that "2000 AD" is mentioned twice.
Quote from: radiator on 09 July, 2019, 09:15:43 PM
I still maintain that the actual worst logo ever is the bendy hand-drawn, occasionally chrome looking one they had for much of the run from 120-554(?).
<cough, splutter>Moderator!
Quote from: MumboJimbo on 10 July, 2019, 02:46:01 PM... The "2000 AD" font has no relation to the logo to the left, and it seems odd (to me) that "2000 AD" is mentioned twice.
I'm pretty sure that mini logo to the left of the logotype is to ensure the name is still visible even when half hidden by other magazines on the shelves of the newsagent. It also adds to the brand unity as the same logo is on the spines/covers of tpb's.
I got the impression at one point that one was the 'brand' and the other was the comic's logotype. Not the case with the Meg now, mind, which omits the 2000 AD logo.
Quote from: MumboJimbo on 10 July, 2019, 02:46:01 PM
Quote from: Richard on 09 July, 2019, 07:46:53 PM
That was the worst logo ever. I don't think it even qualifies as a logo really, it's just a font.
The logo's nothing special, but there's conceptual unity (IMO) with the logo and the page layout, especially the curved cropping of the cover art to the left of the page. I don't think there's much unity in the current prog's layout. The "2000 AD" font has no relation to the logo to the left, and it seems odd (to me) that "2000 AD" is mentioned twice.
It is odd to have it twice, but I think the idea is the 'badge' logo is the brand (like a Marvel or DC cover logo), but the title is also 2000 AD. But then, the Megazine doesn't have a badge logo, so.... maybe I've no idea.
Quote from: The Adventurer on 10 July, 2019, 11:50:59 PM
Quote from: MumboJimbo on 10 July, 2019, 02:46:01 PM
Quote from: Richard on 09 July, 2019, 07:46:53 PM
That was the worst logo ever. I don't think it even qualifies as a logo really, it's just a font.
The logo's nothing special, but there's conceptual unity (IMO) with the logo and the page layout, especially the curved cropping of the cover art to the left of the page. I don't think there's much unity in the current prog's layout. The "2000 AD" font has no relation to the logo to the left, and it seems odd (to me) that "2000 AD" is mentioned twice.
It is odd to have it twice, but I think the idea is the 'badge' logo is the brand (like a Marvel or DC cover logo), but the title is also 2000 AD. But then, the Megazine doesn't have a badge logo, so.... maybe I've no idea.
The badge is top left so it can be easily spotted in shops that layer magazines. The wide title helps reinforce the branding. Having both enables editorial to overlap the wide title for more dynamic design, yet retain the top left logo for identification purposes. All IMHO, obvs.
Man, that's a lot of repetition in only 4 posts!
Quote from: MumboJimbo on 10 July, 2019, 02:46:01 PM
Quote from: Richard on 09 July, 2019, 07:46:53 PM
That was the worst logo ever. I don't think it even qualifies as a logo really, it's just a font.
The logo's nothing special, but there's conceptual unity (IMO) with the logo and the page layout, especially the curved cropping of the cover art to the left of the page. I don't think there's much unity in the current prog's layout. The "2000 AD" font has no relation to the logo to the left, and it seems odd (to me) that "2000 AD" is mentioned twice.
Taste is subjective and all that. I haaaaaaaated the cover design around this point (it was the start of my declining interest that stopped me being a regular reader for a bit) and it was mostly because of that curve and ugly logo font. All felt a bit sterile to me.
I'm very fond of the current cover layout.
Quote from: MacabreMagpie on 11 July, 2019, 09:20:12 AM
Quote from: MumboJimbo on 10 July, 2019, 02:46:01 PM
Quote from: Richard on 09 July, 2019, 07:46:53 PM
That was the worst logo ever. I don't think it even qualifies as a logo really, it's just a font.
The logo's nothing special, but there's conceptual unity (IMO) with the logo and the page layout, especially the curved cropping of the cover art to the left of the page. I don't think there's much unity in the current prog's layout. The "2000 AD" font has no relation to the logo to the left, and it seems odd (to me) that "2000 AD" is mentioned twice.
Taste is subjective and all that. I haaaaaaaated the cover design around this point (it was the start of my declining interest that stopped me being a regular reader for a bit) and it was mostly because of that curve and ugly logo font. All felt a bit sterile to me.
The Prog 1200 logo & design aesthetic always screamed, "MS Windows" to me.
Brrrrr. I read the prog at the time in a state of constant apprehension of it crashing halfway through.
After reading this thread, I was thinking of continuing my recent prog slog (which is up to prog 750), but getting through the 90s by no longer reading all the prog, and instead being a bit selective in the stuff I read. I really can't face another Fleischer-penned Rogue Trooper in any case. I'd rather watch The Phantom Menace.
So the plan is I'm going to jettison the following on-going stories:
Fleischer's Rogue Trooper
Millar's Robo Hunter
Universal Soldier
Bix Barton (I feel bad about this one, because I remember enjoying it back then, but now...not so much)
Dead Meat
Harlem Heroes
Stories that haven't started yet, but I've heard bad things about are:
Kola Kommandos
Kelly's Eye
Space Girls
Blair-1
Baberace 2000 (My word, what they thinking?)
The Clown (although I have to say I rather like the look of this one)
The Summer Offensive stuff
With these I intend to give them a go, but drop them quickly if I'm not feeling it. The plan is to get from 750 to 1200 with the minimum of pain! I'm focusing on the bad stuff rather than the good, because I want my default action to be to read the strip. If I were to only have a list of good stuff then I might miss stuff others find nothing special but I might like. Anything you feel I may have missed?
Quote from: MumboJimbo on 17 July, 2019, 12:17:34 PM
I intend to give (The Summer Offensive stuff) a go, but drop them quickly if I'm not feeling it.
I'd argue that there's no point doing a retrospective if you don't survey one of the most important and contentious periods in the comic's history.
But, taking your rationale at face value, John Smith and Paul Peart's
Slaughterbowl is an objectively great
2000ad story in the tradition of stuff like
Flesh and
Midnight Surfer but with extra wit and genuine amoral nastiness.
Inferno's pretty miserable stuff but Carlos Ezquerra's art for this and its precursor,
Purgatory, is (paradoxically) a career highlight. I like
Maniac 5 and I think
Big Dave is one of the greatest things
2000ad ever published, but I'm not going to get many signatures on my 38 Degrees petition for that one.
Quote from: Frank on 17 July, 2019, 12:35:46 PM
Quote from: MumboJimbo on 17 July, 2019, 12:17:34 PM
I intend to give (The Summer Offensive stuff) a go, but drop them quickly if I'm not feeling it.
I'd argue that there's no point doing a retrospective if you don't survey one of the most important and contentious periods in the comic's history.
Yes, I'm actually very interested in getting to Big Dave & co! A fascinating glimpse into that era. I'm just mindful that I've read only about 500 progs or so out of 2100-odd and there's a lot of 2000 AD content that I still have to read with a much stellar reputation. Also, it's not really a retrospective for me, as I wasn't reading it back then - more that I want to read some great stories that I missed out on.
I'd take The Clown off that list - many people hated it, but I liked it, it doesn't really go anywhere but it's pleasingly odd and the art is great. The rest of the things you mention are pretty skippable though.
Quote from: Dandontdare on 17 July, 2019, 12:53:23 PM
I'd take The Clown off that list - many people hated it, but I liked it, it doesn't really go anywhere but it's pleasingly odd and the art is great. The rest of the things you mention are pretty skippable though.
Yes, The Clown does look like the kind of 2000 AD weirdness I personally love. It will be taken off of the list!
I missed out Trash, which everyone seems to hate, so my new list (taking into account the contributions above - thank you) is:
Trash
Kola Kommandos
Kelly's Eye
Space Girls
Blair-1
Baberace 2000
What about Timehouse - is that worth a decent try?
Everyone will have their own take on things. Of your original list, I'd say some of those aren't only poor, but are deeply offensive at times, not least Millar's Robo-Hunter. Universal Soldier, though, I thought was often pretty good – certainly readable – if derivative.
I'd agree with Frank on Slaughterbowl; even if it's a bloody extended Future Shock, it was for me the one saving grace of the otherwise risible Summer Offensive. (Really and Truly was just dull. Maniac 5 was bereft of ideas. Big Dave is atrocious, unless you like a teenager's take on satire, which totally misunderstands what satire is.) The Clown is one I had a re-read of quite recently. I didn't like it at the time. Now... it's fine. It won't win any awards, but it's not awful.
On your more recent list, Trash has nice art but is boring; Kola Kommandos has fairly nice art but is pointless; Kelly's Eye is dull; Space Girls is dire; Blair-1 is a half-arsed one-Prog joke extended to a series; and Baberace 2000 would be Millar's nadir had so many others not been battling for that crown. (Again, you don't lampoon X by becoming X.)
Timehouse... I'd actually quite like to re-read that. It strikes me as a strip out of place in 2000 AD, by a writer out of place in 2000 AD. But I really like a lot of what Hogan does now, and so am thinking revisiting his 2000 AD output might be in order.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 17 July, 2019, 02:24:35 PM
Timehouse... I'd actually quite like to re-read that. It strikes me as a strip out of place in 2000 AD, by a writer out of place in 2000 AD. But I really like a lot of what Hogan does now, and so am thinking revisiting his 2000 AD output might be in order.
Yeah... didn't feel quite right for the prog, but taken as its own thing, I quite enjoyed it. Certainly, in the company it was keeping in much of the rest of the prog, I rather welcomed the more whimsical tone and even a certain amount of charm.
Thanks for the input :)
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 17 July, 2019, 02:24:35 PM
Of your original list, I'd say some of those aren't only poor, but are deeply offensive at times, not least Millar's Robo-Hunter.
Wow - didn't know that. In what way?
To see what is worthwhile just see what you can find that has been reprinted. If it's hard to get, then you know it is most likely not worth your time or effort. Most of the stuff you mentioned MumbiJimbo has not been reprinted. I will say it again stuff like Big Dave is just plain rubbish. I cannot remember any of these stories, but I can remember the stories prior to this period.
Quote from: MumboJimbo on 17 July, 2019, 02:55:58 PMQuote from: IndigoPrime on 17 July, 2019, 02:24:35 PM
Of your original list, I'd say some of those aren't only poor, but are deeply offensive at times, not least Millar's Robo-Hunter.
Wow - didn't know that. In what way?
Colin Smith's book-like overview of Millar's work sums it up nicely: http://sequart.org/magazine/29692/camp-as-christmas-but-good-as-gold-mark-millar-shameless-part-28/
Later parts also explore the sewer that was Big Dave. Number 25 delves into Babe Race 2000.
EDIT: SPOILERS in the above, obv.
It's an interesting list. Of those you mention, I could separate them like this:
I had trouble plowing through them at the time they were published:
- Fleischer's Rogue Trooper
- Millar's Robo Hunter
- Universal Soldier [but some people love this]
- Bix Barton [but some people love this]
- Kola Kommandos
- Kelly's Eye
I wouldn't volunteer to re-read these but they were harmless at the time:
- Dead Meat
- Harlem Heroes [reboot]
- Trash
I read them but couldn't actually tell you what happened:
- Space Girls
- Baberace 2000
- Blair-1
I thought it was a great experience at the time:
- The Clown
I entirely agree with others about Slaughterbowl: really the highlight of the prog at the time and in hindsight during the offensive. Big Dave had a certain Viz-like charm, but I haven't re-read it since it was published so I'm not actually sure how I'd find it today.
If you're looking to excise the blander end of the market (and I speak to my overall experience, even where perhaps the art was wonderful), you might consider adding to your list:
- Brigand Doom [Marmite]
- Skizz II & III [because it's not Moore]
- Soul Gun Warrior & Assassin
- The Grudge-Father
- Urban Strike [arguably just an extended ad]
- Maniac 6
- Kid Cyborg
- Outlaw
- Pussyfoot 5
Oh man. Some of those in the last list are even worse. The Skizz follow-ups were unnecessary and just didn't work. Brigand Doom was OK, but mostly because of the art. I remember finding Soul Gun incomprehensible, and the Grudgefather among the absolute worst dross in 2000 AD's history.
Urban Strike was appalling – Computer Warrior in Eagle showed that videogame ads dressed up as comics could work. This was just bilge. I don't even recall Maniac 6, which shows the impression it left on me, nor Kid Cybord. Outlaw was a drag.
Pussyfoot 5, though... Wasn't that in a floppy a while back? I recall that was OK, although left dangling in that way John Smith had a tendency to do.
Quote from: MumboJimbo on 17 July, 2019, 02:55:58 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 17 July, 2019, 02:24:35 PM
Of your original list, I'd say some of those aren't only poor, but are deeply offensive at times, not least Millar's Robo-Hunter.
Wow - didn't know that. In what way?
Millarhunter is deeply offensive in the same way as old episodes of
Friends (https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a847367/friends-netflix-fans-call-homophobic-misogynistic/)* * Not a heartfelt plea for sanity or insistence that PC madness is out of control, just an observation that, as teenagers and young men, most people reading this wouldn't have raised an eyebrow at stuff that doesn't fly today. You don't even have to go back as far as the nineties - Matt Lucas (a gay Jewish guy) has recently apologised for the humour involving gay, trans and minority characters in Little Britain, which only feels like five minutes ago.
On balance, I don't think it's a terrible thing that we're all much more considerate of other people's feelings, but you also have to acknowledge that most people ain't too bright and regularly miss the point of dumb, inoffensive stuff just the same as they are liable to do with clever stuff that might be trying to use humour to comment on inconsistencies in human behaviour and attitudes.
Obviously, I'm not making any such claims with regard to Millar's Robohunter or other 2000ad work - it's dumb and unfunny and mostly just of very poor quality. Regarding Colin Smith's criticism of Millar, I'm VERY suspicious of those claiming offence on behalf of others, rather than, oh, I don't know, giving someone belonging to the minority involved the opportunity to speak up on their own behalf. I don't know Smith; maybe he's a leather queen (with fly eyes), but that oft-linked-to piece is unintentionally hilarious:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_valor
Quote from: MumboJimbo on 17 July, 2019, 02:55:58 PM
Thanks for the input :)
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 17 July, 2019, 02:24:35 PM
Of your original list, I'd say some of those aren't only poor, but are deeply offensive at times, not least Millar's Robo-Hunter.
Wow - didn't know that. In what way?
The article IndigoPrime references goes a long way to answer that question. I think it is also worth remembering the era in which it was published. This was the time of 'lads mags' that were often not far removed from soft pornography. It was the time of Viz. The lads culture of the time made for some pretty uncomfortable experiences in general and unfortunately Millar tapped into that.
You just have to look at the pseudo-Viz aspects of some of the stories he wrote for Robocalls-Hunter. Look at his portrayal of Cutie, particularly her evolution into a barbie-esque hyper-realisation of a lot of the imagery around at the time. Big Dave suffered from similar problems, not least of which was it was in completely the wrong publication. Re-reading some of that stuff is beyond embarrassing. At times it can be downright disturbing. Had it shown up in a schoolchild's english book it would have generated a child protection report.
I'm not sure that I would agree with Frank's assessment of the offensiveness completely. I get the point and I would agree that elements of his work that are now problematic are largely down to massive changed sensibilities. I would still argue though that there are other aspects that need to be taken into consideration.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 17 July, 2019, 05:20:53 PM
Pussyfoot 5, though... Wasn't that in a floppy a while back? I recall that was OK, although left dangling in that way John Smith had a tendency to do.
Standalone, it probably is fine (and was floppied in Meg 281). Contextually, as it was a spin-off from the superlative Devlin Waugh sequence of Chasing Herod | Reign of Frogs | Sirius Rising, it suffers for me in comparison.
Quote from: Frank on 17 July, 2019, 05:25:37 PM
I'm VERY suspicious of those claiming offence on behalf of others, rather than, oh, I don't know, giving someone belonging to the minority involved the opportunity to speak up on their own behalf.
Conversely, it would be idiotic of me to say that only black people can recognize racism as directed towards black people.
One does not need to be a member of a persecuted group to recognize the persecution. What would be the motive behind (or effect of) silencing those who are not members of the persecuted group from indicating the persecution? Perhaps to further isolate the persecuted group?
For me, it wasn't Millar's Robohunter that pissed me off. I only had very vague and distant memories of the original at the time. I feel obliged to point out that sex-bomb Cutie was a couple of years before the rise of the lad mag (Our Bish -OP surfed the waves of that one more).
No, it was Garth Ennis's Dredd. Shallow, boring tat almost to an episode, and in every single prog (the return of Wagner hadn't been planned:yet at this point). I had a friend in university who knew him; I just hoped she wouldn't ever introduce me as I just knew I wouldn't be able to even pretend I liked his work.
To be fair to Garth, he admits he dropped the ball and has since become one of the best writers in the industry.
Also, I quite liked Kola Kommandos.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 17 July, 2019, 06:01:32 PM
Quote from: Frank on 17 July, 2019, 06:01:32 PM
I'm VERY suspicious of those claiming offence on behalf of others, rather than, oh, I don't know, giving someone belonging to the minority involved the opportunity to speak up on their own behalf.
What would be the motive behind (or effect of) silencing those who are not members of the persecuted group from indicating the persecution? Perhaps to further isolate the persecuted group?
I typed that in maddeningly tiny text, so I can't fault you for missing it.
I don't know if Sequart is a paying gig or not, but I'm sure Phil Jiminez or John Smith would have appreciated being given a platform to share their thoughts on this topic regardless.
Millar's homophobic portrayal of villains is a consistent and pronounced thread throughout his work on 2000AD – it isn't just a broad cultural throwback to an age of differing social norms, in the way that, say, Wagner and Grant once tended towards employing comedy Asian stereotypes. Instead, I think there's something quite calculated about it – and calculation is that it'll shock / threaten / unsettle the heterosexual teenage male readership of the era, and lead to them enjoying the villain's destruction by ultra-manly 2000AD characters. Millar was not a 2000AD fan prior to writing for the comic – his stories in the prog are an outsider's take on what he imagines 2000AD to be like, full of unpleasant, vicious leads, a far cry from Millar's beloved, comforting US superheroes.
I think the other reason for Millar's gay villains is that he's crudely cribbing from the work of John Smith, who he liked and admired, and whose work frequently hinted at or involved non-heterosexual elements. But whereas Smith employed such aspects with subtlety, humour and imagination, Millar goes at the topic like a bull in a china shop.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 17 July, 2019, 06:05:27 PM
Also, I quite liked Kola Kommandos.
And that's why our lists of "bad things" should be ignored in favor of giving everything a go: you might like it.
Quote from: Frank on 17 July, 2019, 05:25:37 PMMillarhunter is deeply offensive in the same way as old episodes of Friends
They weren't OK at the time either, in the same way it was never fine to use derogatory slurs. It's just people thought they could get away with it. But as Greg notes, this is beyond Friends – there is a deep problematic undercurrent that runs through a whole lot of Millar's output for 2000 AD during that era. It's more than "hey, we're trying to be a bit edgy". Whether through intent or incompetence, he became the thing he was apparently attempting to satirise or lampoon. His work therefore becomes laced with sexism, racism, and homophobia. It's not a good look.
Quote from: Tjm86 on 17 July, 2019, 05:36:30 PMBig Dave suffered from similar problems, not least of which was it was in completely the wrong publication. Re-reading some of that stuff is beyond embarrassing.
I never liked it at the time. That it still has fans today genuinely baffles me. Then again, people still like Ricky Gervais, so I guess there's always a market for 'humour' that thinks it's clever, but that's brutally and repeatedly punching down.
This thread now seems to have spawned a sub-thread on the suitability of humour so I'm going to round out my contribution here. I'm in the 'what the f*** is this s***' camp as one of those who read Big Dave back in the day. I always said that if I wanted to read Viz I would buy it. I wanted to read Tooth.
I think back to the sorts of comedy I tend to find amusing; parts of Robin Williams' stand up work, the MASH television series, the MASH report, Dead Ringers, Monty Python, Blackadder, parts of Red Dwarf, Terry Pratchett, Yes Prime / Minister, the Reduced Shakespeare Company, Nigel Farage ... one of the things that I've realised is that they avoid these 'edgy' tropes. Or perhaps it is that most of them tend to send up authority and authority figures rather than ridiculing minority groups. A lot of it also tends to be suitable enough that I wouldn't be embarrassed if my mother walked in as I was watching. Ah, maybe I'm just turning into a GKOS!
Quote from: Tjm86 on 17 July, 2019, 06:52:02 PM
Ah, maybe I'm just turning into a GKOS!
Gallumphing King Of Shite...?!
Quote from: Tjm86 on 17 July, 2019, 06:52:02 PM
I think back to the sorts of comedy I tend to find amusing; parts of Robin Williams' stand up work, the MASH television series (https://youtu.be/pZ-s7JbYFoM?t=24), the MASH report, Dead Ringers, Monty Python (https://youtu.be/E2ecasPqhgk), Blackadder (https://youtu.be/1OedG-8OUpQ?t=158), parts of Red Dwarf, Terry Pratchett, Yes Prime / Minister, the Reduced Shakespeare Company, Nigel Farage ... one of the things that I've realised is that they avoid these 'edgy' tropes.
Not having a go at you,
Tjm, but, as you would expect for material of that vintage, there are a number of hostages to fortune on that list. I'm sure if I knew the others better I'd be able to cite examples for them, and - as Smith points out with Millar's work - there are get-out clauses (https://youtu.be/Su1r7zu0l9c?t=586).
Nobody's arguing material like that or Millar's
never caused offence, but mainstream culture definitely considered it
okay as recently as 2009 (https://youtu.be/AJ8e6UVpLNg). Around the birth of social media, not coincidentally. It seems strange to think of now, but for a brief period it was a sort of empathy machine.
I too have come to regret my part in derailing
OtherJimbo's thread. Let's unite in agreement that he can safely skip most of Millar's
2000ad work.
Slaughterbowl was a great story, although I think it was let down by mediocre art. It got me through the Summer Offensive. I enjoyed Inferno at the time, and although on re-reading it years later I realised it's actually rubbish, it does have fully painted art by Carlos Ezquerra and it's some of his best work ever.
The Clown is unfairly maligned, it was alright. It has a joke in it that made me unable to stop laughing for ages.
As someone else said above, Pussyfoot 5 suffers by comparison with Devlin Waugh, but taken on its own it's pretty good. Probably easier to follow if you read it all in one go instead of prog by prog.
And I have to defend Garth Ennis here. Yes, some of his Jusge Dredd stories were dire, but also some of them were pretty good, and some were excellent: Raider, Justice One, Twilight's Last Gleaming, Return of the King, The Marshal, Ex-Men, and Unwelcome Guests are all highlights. Karl Urban mentioned Raider as one of his faves from when he was researching the role. So there!
Definitely avoid Space Girls and Drudgefather.
I haven't read it since it was in the prog, but wasn't Urban Strike more of a satire of those kind of things, but wrapped up in an "extended ad for a video game"? Wasn't it actually full.of clever dialogue and gags? Or am I getting it mixed up with Black Light or similar?
I loved Big Dave (haven't read it for years), Dead Meat (the "featuring Inspector Raam" cover is a personal favourite of that era), and Brigand Doom is perpetually on my list of things I want to see reprinted either in trade or Meg floppy.
Much of that period has a certain charm to me. I'd even give Time house another go if I came across it in the box stack.
Not Zippy Couriers or RAM Raiders though. Never them.
SBT
I'd be intrigued if you could at least read part 1 of every skippable story - maybe keep going if it might not seem as bad as all that - then report back either "U WOZ ALL WRONGZ" or merely which episode the strip was ditched at!
Millar was not the original Edgelord, nor the last one sadly - if he had been born 20 years later he could ahve been bigger than Pewdiepie
Oh and skip Wireheads and Kid Cyborg.
Quote from: Richard on 17 July, 2019, 08:15:00 PM
Oh and skip Wireheads and Kid Cyborg.
Wireheads was appalling. Kid Cyborg commits the perhaps-worse sin of being so utterly unmemorable that I can remember
literally nothing about it, including the name of the series until you just mentioned it.
Like JaysuzB. I think Kola Kommandos is all sorts of fun. I wasn't expecting to like it on my recent re-read but I did. A lot.
My honest take on all this is try everything, if its not doing anything for you ditch it. I bet you'll not get any two fans to agree a list. The glory of 2000ad is the variety it offers and the variety of opinion it brings. I'd predict there's something on the list here that folks think is bobbins that you will like and vice versa.
A lot of those strips from the 700s-900s era kind of blur into one in my mind. I see that period as 2000ad's awkward adolescent years.
Stuff like Kola Kommandos, Time House, Brigand Doom, Babe Race 2000, Dead Meat, Really & Truly, Armoured Gideon, The Clown, The Grudgefather, Wireheads, Kid Cyborg, Bix Barton, Big Dave... and on and on... Just not strong 2000ad material as far as I'm concerned. I could never make head nor tail of any of it - it's all so wishy washy. Definitely the least appealing period of 2000ad on both a storytelling and art front imo.
For me, quintessential 2000ad strips tend to follow a particular formula, generally having the following qualities;
1) some kind of unique/interesting hook (or at least a twist on an established premise)
2) generally revolve around a strongly defined central character, usually a titular character (and if they have one or more memorable catchphrases, all the better)
3) have a very simple premise than can effectively be summarised in one single short pitch line.
Shakara - that's a 2000ad strip. Kingdom - that's a 2000ad strip.
I think Andy Diggle's tenure helped a lot to get the comic back on track. Not all of the stuff he commissioned worked, but I think he at least had a very clear vision for what the comic should be (and what it definitely wasn't).
Quote from: radiator on 17 July, 2019, 10:03:07 PM
2) generally revolve around a strongly defined central character, usually a titular character (and if they have one or more memorable catchphrases, all the better)
Well, as long as the catchphrase wasn't squeezed in long after the strip lost its way. Let's knife!
Quote from: radiator on 17 July, 2019, 10:03:07 PM
Big Dave ... it's all so wishy-washy
That's a unique sentiment.
I agree with your characterisation of
2000ADiggle, though. Even though I didn't really enjoy the Back To The Old Days approach of the early Rebellion period
*, I at least felt the comic had some kind of guiding philosophy and identifiable direction again
**The Burton/McKenzie/Tomlinson/Bishop years felt, for the most part, like a near-decade of drift. The odd stuff that worked was seldom built upon and it wasn't immediately apparent to me why the stuff that didn't had been commissioned in the first place.
That's what characterises the nineties. We can't all agree on everything that was good and what wasn't, but I'm pretty sure (at the time) that most of us perceived the comic to be adrift without a rudder or a Captain.
* Rogue Trooper, again?!
** Even though readers didn't - or at least I didn't - know of Dig-L's Shot Glass Of Rocket Fuel memo at the time
IS there anyone who doesn't like Nikolai Dante?
I really didn't like it at first. One of the main reasons was Robbie's tendency back then to put all the wrong words in bold, making the dialogue all jerky and weird. Also I thought Nikolai was a wanker. But RM fixed his dialogue, and his main character, and it turned out bloody brilliant.
QuoteI agree with your characterisation of 2000ADiggle, though. Even though I didn't really enjoy the Back To The Old Days approach of the early Rebellion period*, I at least felt the comic had some kind of guiding philosophy and identifiable direction again**
Even at the time, prog 1250 felt like a kind of mission statement - Garth Ennis and Ezquerra back on Dredd leading a line up of fairly iconic*, action-heavy strips that all have (iirc) at least one splash page apiece.
*well, Tor Cyan was supposed to be the next big thing at the time.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 17 July, 2019, 05:17:21 PM
If you're looking to excise the blander end of the market (and I speak to my overall experience, even where perhaps the art was wonderful), you might consider adding to your list:
- Brigand Doom [Marmite]
- Skizz II & III [because it's not Moore]
- Soul Gun Warrior & Assassin
- The Grudge-Father
- Urban Strike [arguably just an extended ad]
- Maniac 6
- Kid Cyborg
- Outlaw
- Pussyfoot 5
I think
blandness is actually what I'm trying to avoid here. I don't mind contentious, offensive or even the plain bad. I can't comment on whether Millar's 90s output has offensive homosexual stereotypes that go beyond what was considered acceptable in its day, as I haven't read it. There has though been a difference of opinion here, and I'd be interested to find out how I felt.
It's the blandness of certain stories that make a prog slog of this era into, well, a slog. I regard prog 723 (the first full colour prog) as really the end of the "silver age" of 2000 AD, as it marks a moment where there's a (in my opinion) significant uptick in the amount of the generic action strips that just kind of wash over you. It's when the Robo-Hunter reboot starts and Garth Ennis take over Dredd (which are to be fair a hit-and-miss collection, but I've just read the Muzak Killer story, so I'm feeling a bit anti-Ennis at the mo). But the move to all colour itself also has a deleterious effect; when half the prog was b&w you had the sense that the strips that were in colour were picked because they were either very high-profile stories, or colour would aid the story telling in some way, or maybe use an interesting restricted pallet to convey a certain mood. But when full-colour comes in a lot of the colouring is so, well (sorry to use that word again)
bland.
I think the replies folks have given here have helped me focus what I'm really trying to avoid here. And everything new will definitely be given a fair crack of the whip. But equally I'll be happy to quickly drop those stories that peeps have called out for being poor. Interesting though that for many of these stories, there's often one or two posters who have defended them. For myself I very much like what I've read so far of Brigand Doom. And Moonrunners was awful, yet that didn't stop it being a fascinating folly that shed light on how the staff behind 2000 AD wanted to position the prog at that time. When you're reading progs from 30 years ago, the "archaeology" is part of the fun. That's why I far prefer reading the old progs to GN collections - I love the articles on Amiga games and 12" remixes! Even the bank adverts are interesting to me (they seem so hamfisted in their ways to appear to younger customers).
Quote from: Leigh S on 17 July, 2019, 08:10:49 PM
I'd be intrigued if you could at least read part 1 of every skippable story - maybe keep going if it might not seem as bad as all that - then report back either "U WOZ ALL WRONGZ" or merely which episode the strip was ditched at!
I will definitely do that!
Quote from: Frank on 17 July, 2019, 10:27:21 PM
** Even though readers didn't - or at least I didn't - know of Dig-L's Shot Glass Of Rocket Fuel memo at the time
Andy was a regular contributor to the 2000AD Usenet group back then, and posted his mission statement in full (https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!searchin/alt.comics.2000ad/Rocket$20fuel/alt.comics.2000ad/lTcPdx8DUKE) to the group.
If you're going to read through a huge chunk of Progs, I think it's wise to cut out strips you're likely to find a chore.
I'd say skip any and all Rogue-Trooperish strips for sure, even after Fleisher is replaced it's a mess.
Likewise Strontium Dogs, with the exception of 'Monsters' which I believe starts in Prog 750.
Under no circumstances should you read Red Razors.
(poor old nigel Dobbyn)
And, because they're often rather wordy, you'd be forgiven for skipping over Vector 13.
Are we counting ParaSites as continuation of WireHeads? It's my current pick for worst 2000AD story. (WireHeads on its own is a noble failure with quite a few fun ideas)
Dare I say it, but you might want to consider skimming through any outings for Finn post Prog 900, and indeed Slaine from the same era...
Saddest of all, you could do worse than ignoring all Judge Dredd episodes from Inferno through to Conspiracy of Silence, while also trying not to get too annoyed that a lot of key Dredd is going on over in the Megazine, courtesy of Mechanismo and The Tenth Planet.
And I say that as someone who mostly enjoyed Ennis Dredd, and even the early Millar Dredds!
QuoteI'd say skip any and all Rogue-Trooperish strips for sure, even after Fleisher is replaced it's a mess.
I've got to admit, I have a bit of a soft spot for the Steve White/Dan Abnett era of Rogue, it being my first exposure to the character. It at least had some momentum, the feeling that they were building towards something, and I still consider Steve Tappin a really underrated 2000ad artist of the time.
The Fleischer era was and is absolutely unreadable though. Lets just say that Simon Coleby's art improved
a lot after his Rogue trooper run.
Seconded - the Steve White Rogue Trooper is pretty good (up until it tries to merge continuities with old Rogue Trooper, something it never recovers from.) Likewise, Strontium Dogs is perfectly decent, particularly the Pete Hogan stuff. (To be honest though, I can enjoy Ennis's work on the series too - apart from Monsters, which is a bit dull.) And just to show that I didn't post to contradict AlexF at every turn, he's right about WireHeads - for all its awful reputation, it's not that bad. ParaSites is absolutely dire though.
Steve White's Rogue, I agree, isn't bad, but it mostly for me seemed good by comparison to what went before it. In mashing together the various Rogues, we just ended up with a mess. Tor Cyan was, to my mind, more interesting, but then that just kind of stopped.
As for Strontium Dogs, I think it warrants a re-read at some point, when I get through the pile of doom. As I've said elsewhere, I've really grown to like Hogan's work (Resident Alien is wonderful, for example), and suspect some of his 2000 AD output would read better to me now I'm an old git.
It doesn't. It was before he was good.
I really liked Strontium Dogs (at the time, probably doesn't hold up great). Again, mainly for the art - Dobbyn's hand painted stuff was absolutely beautiful - kind of cutesy but with an edge.
I disliked the disbanding under Ennis, thought Hogan was slooooowly putting things right, then bam! you snooze you lose Hogan! :lol:
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 18 July, 2019, 07:29:25 PM
As for Strontium Dogs, I think it warrants a re-read at some point, when I get through the pile of doom. As I've said elsewhere, I've really grown to like Hogan's work (Resident Alien is wonderful, for example), and suspect some of his 2000 AD output would read better to me now I'm an old git.
Yeah Hogan's Resident Alien is great. I'm also a BIG fan of his (and Rian Hughes) Robo-Hunter. Such a step up from Millar's
Quote from: MumboJimbo on 18 July, 2019, 09:12:12 AM
...I very much like what I've read so far of Brigand Doom.
Yeah its a good strip with great art. Does suffer from diminishing returns, at times, but is never less than entertaining.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 17 July, 2019, 07:31:56 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 17 July, 2019, 06:52:02 PM
Ah, maybe I'm just turning into a GKOS!
Gallumphing King Of Shite...?!
Grumpy, Knackered Old Sod ...
Close though.
Can I just check before I take offence, was it intended to be insulting or just a bit of baiting?
I like the whimsical Hogan of Timehouse and RoboHunter very much.
Less keen on the portentous Hogan of Dragon Tales and Strontium Dogs.
(I retain a soft spot for the villainous Alphabet Men, though)
I've not read any of his post-2000AD work, but get the feeling that a) I should have and b) Bish-Op was wrong to throw him out with the bathwater!
Quote from: Tjm86 on 19 July, 2019, 06:44:08 AM
Can I just check before I take offence, was it intended to be insulting or just a bit of baiting?
Neither! I just couldn't work out what it stood for! Reading it back, I can see why you might have thought that, though. My apologies — no insult intended.
Quote from: AlexF on 19 July, 2019, 08:08:48 AMI like the whimsical Hogan of Timehouse and RoboHunter very much.
Yep: Hogan/Hughes Robo-Hunter was solid. I'd have liked to have seen that in the Hachette run, but in colour.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 19 July, 2019, 08:50:30 AM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 19 July, 2019, 06:44:08 AM
Can I just check before I take offence, was it intended to be insulting or just a bit of baiting?
Neither! I just couldn't work out what it stood for! Reading it back, I can see why you might have thought that, though. My apologies — no insult intended.
Either way up, I love the expression Galumphing King of Shite and will be using it in the near future.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 19 July, 2019, 08:50:30 AM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 19 July, 2019, 06:44:08 AM
Can I just check before I take offence, was it intended to be insulting or just a bit of baiting?
Neither! I just couldn't work out what it stood for! Reading it back, I can see why you might have thought that, though. My apologies — no insult intended.
Fair enough and fair point. I wasn't sure so I thought it might be an idea to check on the intention rather than setting fire to the thread as so often tends to be the case.
I would agree with Jayz that the offered expression is a quality one to which I doff my cap sir.
Quote from: AlexF on 19 July, 2019, 08:08:48 AM
I like the whimsical Hogan of Timehouse and RoboHunter very much.
Less keen on the portentous Hogan of Dragon Tales and Strontium Dogs.
(I retain a soft spot for the villainous Alphabet Men, though)
I've not read any of his post-2000AD work, but get the feeling that a) I should have and b) Bish-Op was wrong to throw him out with the bathwater!
That's the thing though, Hogan was a good writer. I'd take his Strontium Dogs over Garth's any day (I am preparing myself to forgive the latter for demystifying and [spoiler]slaughtering[/spoiler] the Lyrans, as well as giving Feral a silly and predictable backstory.)
Didn't Peter Hogan write that Steel Claw in the excellent Action Special? Between that the Cursitor Doom story, it showed that two writers whose normal stuff was just ok were capable of brilliance when given the right characters.
Quote from: radiator on 17 July, 2019, 10:03:07 PM
For me, quintessential 2000ad strips tend to follow a particular formula, generally having the following qualities;
1) some kind of unique/interesting hook (or at least a twist on an established premise)
2) generally revolve around a strongly defined central character, usually a titular character (and if they have one or more memorable catchphrases, all the better)
3) have a very simple premise than can effectively be summarised in one single short pitch line.
The catchphrase thing is kinda interesting. I think it's certainly true that a catchphrase can't make a poor character into a good one, but with the best characters a good one can help reinforce a sense of who they are. The best 2000AD ones include "I am the Law", "Kiss My Axe", "He didn't think it too many", "Be Pure, Be Vigilent, Behave" , "I'm too cool to kill", "bojmoi", "Credo", "you can not kill what doesn't live", "the sentence is death" and "Get Whet".
BTW what's Johnny Alpha's catchphrase? Does "number 3 / number 4 cartridge" count?
I think it does! Mind you, Wulf handles the catchphrase side of things, Johnny mainly does laconic, with a side-order of "Ma'am".
Der Sternhammer silencer!
Reckon