The Political Thread

[Tjm86]

Not completely clued in about this, but I feel some degree of relief that Theresa has won the vote of confidence. 

That is perhaps the most terrifying aspect of the whole current situation.  Hell of an election slogan:  "Theresa May: because the others will screw you over a hell of a lot more!"

[TordelBack]

The problem as I (a largely ignorant arsehole) see it is that Rees-Mogg, Johnson and the whole parasitic parade of toffee-nosed freaks are staying/being kept out of it, permitting them to sweep in when the dust clears (whatever the outcome) and be annointed as saviours of the land in its hour of need.  May was never more than a sacrificial lamb for the Tories, the PM who was chosen to eff-up Brexit, because that's the only outcome there could ever have been. 

No-Deal Brexit: May failed, hateful EU punishes UK with unending hardship, Rees-Mogg to the rescue.
May's Deal: May failed, hateful EU punishes UK with economic decline and vassal-status, Rees-Mogg to the rescue.
Remain: May failed, betrayed the wishes of the people and condemned UK to eternal occupation, Rees-Mogg to the rescue.

I hope the pension was worth it.

[Frank]

I couldn't care less whether May stays or goes, but the plan she's trying to get through is the least-worst of any of the versions of Brexit that stand a realistic chance of happening.

Whatever version of Brexit we eventually get, everyone will hate it and nobody will be happy.

Which is why we're doomed to keep hearing the same tired grievances we've endured for the last three years (from both sides) for the rest of our lives. For our generation, this will never end.

[Professor Bear]

No-Deal Brexit: May failed, hateful EU punishes UK with unending hardship, Rees-Mogg to the rescue.
May's Deal: May failed, hateful EU punishes UK with economic decline and vassal-status, Rees-Mogg to the rescue.
Remain: May failed, betrayed the wishes of the people and condemned UK to eternal occupation, Rees-Mogg to the rescue.

So basically what happened to Greece.  And Greece is still inside the EU.

[TordelBack]

So basically what happened to Greece.  And Greece is still inside the EU.

Pretty much that.

[The Legendary Shark]

Why would anyone want to be part of a "hateful" organisation that would actively try to destroy any people who want to leave it?

[Frank]

Why would anyone want to be part of a "hateful" organisation that would actively try to destroy any people who want to leave it?

You may have misread the ironic tone of TordelBack's comment.

[TordelBack]

In fairness to TLS I'm not very good at expressing tone in my posts.

What annoys me most about Eternal Brexit, even more than what is likely to be catastrophic economic and political impact on my own country that we're not supposed to care about because it's the the will of "the" people, is that it permanently distracts from what actually matters: tackling climate change and mass migration (not the occasional storms and a trickle of refugees of today, the real stuff - drowned cities, barren fields and billions on the move).  That a bunch of posh fucks have manipulated us down this nationalist dead-end for their own short-term benefit... it's almost too much to bear. And before anyone says, "growing economic inequality": same posh fucks.

[The Legendary Shark]

Apologies, Tordels. I'm pretty bad at projecting irony myself - and, of course, detecting it. Maybe I'll try posting ironic content in italics from now on

Still, I gather the general feeling is that the EU will punish the British for leaving it, reducing our country to a virtual ruin. This does not seem like the behaviour of a democratic and enlightened body to me - although I admit I've not been following proceedings very closely at all.

[JayzusB.Christ]

Apologies, Tordels. I'm pretty bad at projecting irony myself - and, of course, detecting it. Maybe I'll try posting ironic content in italics from now on

Still, I gather the general feeling is that the EU will punish the British for leaving it, reducing our country to a virtual ruin. This does not seem like the behaviour of a democratic and enlightened body to me - although I admit I've not been following proceedings very closely at all.

The EU is not punishing Britain for leaving - the rules for leaving haven't changed from the start.  Fair enough, the British public were not properly informed on those rules in the run-up to the referendum.

A good metaphor I heard was to imagine you're leaving a golf club (not that I've got a clue about being part of a golf club).  The golf club says 'well, now you're leaving, you no longer have easy access to our facilities'.  Not really a punishment.  It's what happens when you leave an organisation.

Doesn't mean the organisation is perfect, but it's a stretch to call that a punishment.

[Frank]

... imagine you're leaving a golf club ... The golf club says 'well, now you're leaving, you no longer have easy access to our facilities'.  Not really a punishment.  It's what happens when you leave an organisation

Or Netflix
Or a gym
Or cancelling a subscription to a comic

Tharg is no more punishing lapsed subbers by not mailing them a copy of 2000ad every week than the EU is punishing the US by not allowing its chlorinated chickens tariff-free access to your belly.

Ideological Brexiters calculated that the benefits of membership were outweighed by the benefits of leaving, which is their right as free agents.

Those who voted to Leave as a vague, directionless, existential howl of protest against the state of things in general are the ones who see loss of access as a punishment. No resolving that one; no point in trying.

[Tjm86]

It seems in some respects that the rules for leaving the EU were a bit like the safety trunk of a submarine; there for show but if anybody ever had to use it then the chances of survival would be pretty slim.  I would agree with the consensus regarding the EU punishing the UK.  They don't really need to do much beyond waving goodbye. 

If anything the EU are playing the canny game.  Be as reasonable and accommodating as possible without compromising principles (possibly where the UK is at a disadvantage since the current chancers haven't the first clue what those are) and let us get on with it.  Any country thinking about leaving is probably taking a long hard look at the clusterflob that the government is making of this and thinking twice.

Whilst it might be possible for Brexit to be a success and revitalise the UK, it is hard to see that as a credible outcome in light of the ferret sack that we've seen the last two years.

[IAMTHESYSTEM]

When the hard choice comes, I hope it will be remain, but ideology and overzealous patriotism blinds certain groups to the realities that even the best 'out' plan is worse financially than staying in. Like the Milgram test, they keep pressing the switch in the hope the current will gain a different reaction, but all you get is louder screams. Misery.

[The Legendary Shark]

I see, thanks.

Not having access to undemocratically created rules, regulations, restrictions, tariffs, taxations, quotas and licenses sounds awful. Still, we have our own local systems to fill that particular void - so we can be screwed from Westminster rather than Brussels.

I doubt we'll be allowed to leave anyway, at least not fully. The Powers That Shouldn't Be want global government so this whole thing seems to me to be a kind of political false flag operation to prove that huge bureaucratic unions are better than piddling little sovereign states or, especially, local and personal rights and responsibilities.

And just for the record, my position on the EU is the same as my position on all governments - it's not the organisation I'm opposed to, it's the illusions.

[JayzusB.Christ]

Trading, loads of funding for local heritage and infrastructure projects, and being able to live in other countries with a minimum of hassle have been nice too.