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2000 AD => News => Topic started by: The Legendary Shark on 08 June, 2017, 07:27:53 AM

Title: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 08 June, 2017, 07:27:53 AM
Available on Amazon (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B072JYY2NF/) now - Kindle Edition, £4.95.
Title: Re: [i]2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History[/i] by Pat Mills.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 08 June, 2017, 07:37:56 AM
Any chance that a Mod could remove the bb tags from the title of this thread, please? Thanks.
Title: Re: [i]2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History[/i] by Pat Mills.
Post by: Bad City Blue on 08 June, 2017, 09:16:04 AM
I don't have a kindle, can you download and read on a laptop?
Title: Re: [i]2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History[/i] by Pat Mills.
Post by: Steve Green on 08 June, 2017, 09:37:27 AM
Yep.
Title: Re: [i]2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History[/i] by Pat Mills.
Post by: Steve Green on 08 June, 2017, 09:38:11 AM
At least you can read it on a laptop using the kindle cloud viewer, not sure about download for offline though.
Title: Re: [i]2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History[/i] by Pat Mills.
Post by: norton canes on 08 June, 2017, 10:13:31 AM
I think I might wait for the paper copy, resplendent with gory O'Neill cover (I hope!)
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Huey2 on 08 June, 2017, 08:01:31 PM
It doesn't look like there's a guarantee of a physical copy.

Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Steve Green on 08 June, 2017, 08:07:01 PM
It's been mentioned, as well as an audio book.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Huey2 on 08 June, 2017, 08:43:47 PM
Oh really? Great news.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: JoFox2108 on 24 June, 2017, 12:17:59 PM
Quote from: Huey2 on 08 June, 2017, 08:01:31 PM
It doesn't look like there's a guarantee of a physical copy.

It would be such a shame if they didn't print a hardcopy.  I really want to read this but I can't stand reading books on a screen.  Give me a dog-eared paperback over that souless pixelated nonesense any day.

(Sorry, got into a bit of a rant there - I didn't realise how strongly I felt about the whole digital / physical division.)   
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: JLC on 24 June, 2017, 12:23:02 PM
Quote from: Steve Green on 08 June, 2017, 08:07:01 PM
It's been mentioned, as well as an audio book.
I've read it but will also get the audio book. A brilliant book!
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 01 August, 2017, 07:02:49 PM
Audiobook version (http://spokenworldaudio.biz/product/be-pure/).


Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Richard on 01 August, 2017, 07:06:18 PM
Paperback: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0995661235/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1501610728&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=Be+Pure%21+Be+Vigilant%21+Behave&dpPl=1&dpID=61o1tRMrn7L&ref=plSrch (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0995661235/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1501610728&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=Be+Pure%21+Be+Vigilant%21+Behave&dpPl=1&dpID=61o1tRMrn7L&ref=plSrch)
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Tjm86 on 01 August, 2017, 07:48:08 PM
The biography makes for some interesting reading.  Looking at some of the publications he used to write for ...
The Spanker, Everlasting Love, Hand Shandy ...   :o
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: AlexF on 02 August, 2017, 12:00:35 PM
I'm suprised people aren't talking more about the content of this book - which I haven't read. I'm curious to know if it's worth buying, or if it mostly retells stories that Mills has told before on his blog or on the Future Shock documentary. It's always worth lsitening to what Pat Mills has to say about 2000AD, but he does like to flog the same horses a lot of times...
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Tomwe on 02 August, 2017, 12:12:09 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 02 August, 2017, 12:00:35 PM
I'm suprised people aren't talking more about the content of this book - which I haven't read. I'm curious to know if it's worth buying, or if it mostly retells stories that Mills has told before on his blog or on the Future Shock documentary. It's always worth lsitening to what Pat Mills has to say about 2000AD, but he does like to flog the same horses a lot of times...

My friend Dan has read the kindle edition and described it as "250 pages of Pat swearing and plugging his new novel [Serial Killer]"
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: JLC on 02 August, 2017, 06:17:56 PM
Quote from: Tomwe on 02 August, 2017, 12:12:09 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 02 August, 2017, 12:00:35 PM
I'm suprised people aren't talking more about the content of this book - which I haven't read. I'm curious to know if it's worth buying, or if it mostly retells stories that Mills has told before on his blog or on the Future Shock documentary. It's always worth lsitening to what Pat Mills has to say about 2000AD, but he does like to flog the same horses a lot of times...

My friend Dan has read the kindle edition and described it as "250 pages of Pat swearing and plugging his new novel [Serial Killer]"
Well that is incorrect.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 02 August, 2017, 07:18:13 PM
Quote from: JLC on 02 August, 2017, 06:17:56 PM
Well that is incorrect.

Why do you think that?
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Leigh S on 02 August, 2017, 09:08:51 PM
Not being a religious reader of his blog, can't tell how much is recycled info from there, but it is certainly Pat Mills, jumping about until settling on a bugbear to air before remembering there was a story being told when the chapter began! (Just be be clear, I find as this enjoyable as I find it in his strip work so it works for me most of the time)

There is new info (to me) about such things as "Mekomania" and generally it is good to see Pat's memories all in one spot.  Just really want to see the Burton, McKenzie, Bishop/Diggle books now - Did I imagine talk of a Burton book?
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Richard on 02 August, 2017, 11:43:09 PM
I'm only three chapters in so I can't say yet. But it's certainly being marketed as containing stories we haven't heard before. And it's straight from the horse's mouth instead of an interview.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: JOE SOAP on 03 August, 2017, 05:39:18 AM
Quote from: Leigh S on 02 August, 2017, 09:08:51 PM
Did I imagine talk of a Burton book?


I believe it's a work diary. Not sure if it is really intended to be published.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Frank on 03 August, 2017, 02:52:29 PM
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 03 August, 2017, 05:39:18 AM
Quote from: Leigh S on 02 August, 2017, 09:08:51 PM
Did I imagine talk of a Burton book?

I believe it's a work diary. Not sure if it is really intended to be published.

That would be a shame.

I don't think it would answer the question of how things went so wrong in the nineties - since Burton doesn't accept that it did - but I'd still like to get his version of things like the falling out with Wagner & Grant down in print.


Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: A.Cow on 05 August, 2017, 05:03:38 AM
Quote from: JLC on 02 August, 2017, 06:17:56 PM
Quote from: Tomwe on 02 August, 2017, 12:12:09 PM
My friend Dan has read the kindle edition and described it as "250 pages of Pat swearing and plugging his new novel [Serial Killer]"
Well that is incorrect.

I've not read the book but the extract on Amazon mentions Serial Killer twice in the first couple of chapters, which is far too often for my own personal liking.

Although Tomwe's friend Dan may be exaggerating somewhat, I'd be surprised if Mills wavered from that tack in the rest of the book.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Richard on 05 August, 2017, 10:23:27 AM
That is a theme, although in fairness to Pat both books are about comics in the 1970s. There was bound to be a little overlap.

I think the differences between this book and what Pat has said before are:
(1) this is Pat entirely in his own words and not just what an interviewer saw fit to include, and
(2) because it's a whole book and not just a blog entry, there's more room for him to develop a point or go into detail. So there are things that we didn't know before (as far as I can remember anyway). One example (because it's where I've just got up to): I know I'd heard the name Doug Church somewhere before but we've never been told - until now - what he was really like, what he really did and why he is important in the history of 2000AD.

If Pat just isn't your cup of tea then fine. But if you want to know about how 2000AD and its first characters, including Dredd, were created in the words of its founding editor, and in detail not just the broad overview we've seen before, then this is worth a tenner. It's better than spending it on crack.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: dweezil2 on 05 August, 2017, 10:49:24 AM
I found the book fascinating and Pat's obvious passion for comics made for an obsorbing read that made the book hard to put down-I read it in two sittings, which is unheard of for me.
Essential reading.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: davidbishop on 05 August, 2017, 11:22:57 AM
Quote from: Richard on 05 August, 2017, 10:23:27 AM
That is a theme, although in fairness to Pat both books are about comics in the 1970s. There was bound to be a little overlap.

I think the differences between this book and what Pat has said before are:
(1) this is Pat entirely in his own words and not just what an interviewer saw fit to include, and
(2) because it's a whole book and not just a blog entry, there's more room for him to develop a point or go into detail. So there are things that we didn't know before (as far as I can remember anyway). One example (because it's where I've just got up to): I know I'd heard the name Doug Church somewhere before but we've never been told - until now - what he was really like, what he really did and why he is important in the history of 2000AD.

Pat waxes lyrical about Doug Church in Thrill-Power Overload on pages 13-16 of the 40th Anniversary edition in particular; Doug is also featured - often in his words - on pages 11, 20-21, 23, 27, 33 & 57.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: JLC on 05 August, 2017, 11:51:09 AM
Quote from: dweezil2 on 05 August, 2017, 10:49:24 AM
I found the book fascinating and Pat's obvious passion for comics made for an obsorbing read that made the book hard to put down-I read it in two sittings, which is unheard of for me.
Essential reading.
I agree. Loved it. I'm looking forward to listening to the audio version.

I found Steve MacManus' book very enjoyable but slightly subdued. This is the complete opposite. But then I guess each book quite rightly reflects the personality of the author. As such the 2 books do complement each other offering different perspectives on the history of 2000AD.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Bad City Blue on 05 August, 2017, 12:55:10 PM
Here's an unbiased review. From me.

http://cool-stuff-you-will-like.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/pat-mills-be-pure-be-vigilant-behave.html
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Richard on 05 August, 2017, 01:13:34 PM
I wish he'd called it "A Minefield of Imbeciles and Chimps."
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Richard on 05 August, 2017, 01:14:20 PM
Thanks David, I'll look into that.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Leigh S on 05 August, 2017, 07:59:39 PM
Almost at the end and I can't see it changing any minds - I'm very much pro-Pat, and while this book does a good job of illuminating the why from his perspective with regards his falling out with the editorial in teh 90s, his continued desire to lay all the ills of the decade at Dav(e)id Bishops door does not serve either party well (Saying that the Dark Days Droid was responsible for bringing in Grant Morrison for example, who got rid of Tharg - given the Summer Offensive ran a couple of years before DB moved into Tharg's seat and even more years before the Vector 13 takeover....).

There was definitely animosity between editorial and Pat during this time - I witnessed it myself at various Comics related events in the late 90s/early 2000s, but this isnt the book to lay to rest the chicken/egg question as to which came first.  That said, if the facts didnt undermine his argument, he presents a cogent set of concerns as to the direction of the comic, even if he doesnt alway aim at the right target.

Elsewhere there are a good few nuggets of new info, more outside of his 2000AD work.  Given the fun he seems to have had doing his French stuff, you can't quite believe he bothered hanging around the prog - I'm grateful he has remained a presence, even such a divisive one at times. 

Other than the facts SNAFUs (and some weird proof reading - "ehaviour"? "lavor"?) the only real thing that irks is he is prone to say "that's too long to go into here" at just the time when he is about to tell you something you didn't know - not sure if this is due to some of this being from his blog or not?

You are definitely left with a better picture of Pat and he does effectively descrbe a fair amount of imbecile and chimp behaviour that might account for his reputation for a short fuse/lack of patience with said imbecility (delete as applicable)

Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Leigh S on 05 August, 2017, 08:02:24 PM
Also, those reading the "not sure it is me of the prog...?" thread would probably be interested into his insight into why modern 2000AD (which he mostly praises) suffers from certain forces at work - he seems to be as annoyed at the "Slaine/Savage/Flesh will return in Book 7" as we are!
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Frank on 05 August, 2017, 09:36:06 PM

Cheers, Leigh. Mills's feuds are enormously entertaining, but I take the rationales offered with a pinch of salt.

Maybe his attitude towards Tharg is unnecessarily confrontational - then again, none of Mills's characters are currently * being farmed out to other writers ...


* or have ever been
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Leigh S on 05 August, 2017, 09:39:01 PM
Quote from: Frank on 05 August, 2017, 09:36:06 PM

Cheers, Leigh. Mills's feuds are enormously entertaining, but I take the rationales offered with a pinch of salt.

Maybe his attitude towards Tharg is unnecessarily confrontational - then again, none of Mills's characters are currently * being farmed out to other writers ...


* or have ever been

As much as I can recall, we had an Abnett Flesh series and the Rennie Satanus mini series.  There were also the very dodgey ABC Warriors and Slaine novels, though that would be Rebellion Era (and the Mills authored first ABC book is ace)
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Frank on 05 August, 2017, 10:09:58 PM

I've never even heard Mills mention the White/Abnett Flesh effort, let alone complain about it *. I think that was before he decided all the Prog One strips were his babies.

That Satanus strip - appearing at the time Mills felt most insecure - seems to have been the point where he realised his deep and lasting affection for stuff he hadn't touched in decades.


* Maybe he doesn't know about it. Nobody tell him.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Leigh S on 05 August, 2017, 10:26:44 PM
It is frustrating when Pat makes basic errors when ascribing actions to specific editorial members, as it undermines a general argument I broadly agree with:

2000AD wanted to chase the trendy "Deadline" crowd and appeal to comics fans over a general audience and in doing so lost its own identity, with the likes of GFD and Bellardinelli paying the most obvious price.

None of that happened on Bishop or Diggle's watch though - they had the unenviable job of picking up the pieces  - Pat spends the first half of the book saying how you have to be a monster to be an editor, and at times trample all over creators feelings to get results. He then complains about David's "hobnail boots" and Andy's script doctoring.... I can see how he might perceive a difference, but it would be nice if he addressed the possible hypocrisy in this.  It's almost as if he prefers the "it's only a bloody comic" attitude of the previous encumbent Thargs.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Greg M. on 05 August, 2017, 10:30:53 PM
Quote from: Frank on 05 August, 2017, 10:09:58 PM

I've never even heard Mills mention the White/Abnett Flesh effort, let alone complain about it.

He has mentioned it - his response was something along the lines of "How would Dan Abnett like it if I started writing Sinister / Dexter?"
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Frank on 05 August, 2017, 11:15:50 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 05 August, 2017, 10:26:44 PM
Pat spends the first half of the book saying how you have to be a monster to be an editor, and at times trample all over creators feelings to get results. He then complains about David's "hobnail boots" and Andy's script doctoring.... I can see how he might perceive a difference, but it would be nice if he addressed the possible hypocrisy in this.

Exactly. This is the guy who brags about rewriting the first twelve issues of the comic.

I love Mills, and wouldn't want to see him get the John Smith treatment,  but he doesn't seem to realise that he's now the equivalent of the old IPC staffers who wanted everything done the same way because that's what worked in the past.

Or Tom Tully, stretching out stories for as long as possible, keeping the same old characters going long past their sell by date.*


* To be fair, if Mills wasn't writing Sláine and ABC Warriors, someone else would. And Pat wouldn't get a penny..
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Leigh S on 05 August, 2017, 11:20:20 PM
Quote from: Frank on 05 August, 2017, 11:15:50 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 05 August, 2017, 10:26:44 PM
Pat spends the first half of the book saying how you have to be a monster to be an editor, and at times trample all over creators feelings to get results. He then complains about David's "hobnail boots" and Andy's script doctoring.... I can see how he might perceive a difference, but it would be nice if he addressed the possible hypocrisy in this.

Exactly. This is the guy who brags about rewriting the first twelve issues of the comic.

I love Mills, and wouldn't want to see him get the John Smith treatment,  but he doesn't seem to realise that he's now the equivalent of the old IPC staffers who wanted everything done the same way because that's what worked in the past.

Or Tom Tully, stretching out stories for as long as possible, keeping the same old characters going long past their sell by date.*


* To be fair, if Mills wasn't writing Sláine and ABC Warriors, someone else would. And Pat wouldn't get a penny..

Indeed - I think Pat has finally convinced me that his 90s output was adversely affected by the powers that be "constraining" or at least befuddling and de-energizing him. I'd love to see more of his European work, such as Torturer - sounds like he was having more fun there, and that showed in the work he did for the progs at the time
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Frank on 05 August, 2017, 11:33:32 PM
Quote from: Greg M. on 05 August, 2017, 10:30:53 PM
Quote from: Frank on 05 August, 2017, 10:09:58 PM

I've never even heard Mills mention the White/Abnett Flesh effort, let alone complain about it.

He has mentioned it - his response was something along the lines of "How would Dan Abnett like it if I started writing Sinister / Dexter?"

Cheers, Greg. Mills has a point; it's very unusual for a 2000ad writer to be replaced on a strip they created, provided they're still willing to work on it.

Hopefully we'll be given some indication of whether the forthcoming series of Devlin Waugh and Indigo Prime represent exceptions to Tharg's general practise.


Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: TordelBack on 06 August, 2017, 11:03:47 AM
Quote from: Greg M. on 05 August, 2017, 10:30:53 PM
Quote from: Frank on 05 August, 2017, 10:09:58 PM

I've never even heard Mills mention the White/Abnett Flesh effort, let alone complain about it.

He has mentioned it - his response was something along the lines of "How would Dan Abnett like it if I started writing Sinister / Dexter?"

But didn't Flesh have 4 or 5 writers in its first 6-month run, and then someone entirely different for Book 2? The White/Abnett stuff (which i've never read) was just continuing a tradition.

Mills is fighting his corner here, there's no shame in that. In the absence of his creator's rights the only weapon he has is the threat of the gaffer's Ragin' Fury, more power to him if it works.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Leigh S on 06 August, 2017, 12:12:49 PM
Yeah, Flesh is an easier call for editorial to overlook Pat as first choice writer given Pat only wrote the first one/few. Satanus, given the "terrible thing he would do" is a central hanging thread in Pat's story (though didnt he do the terrible thing in Nemesis?) not quite as forgivable as an "oversight"

In that sense, I can see how the cock ups of the early 90s might have passed under his radar - They left Pat alone and didnt challenge him or call him out - when Bishop and Diggle decide (rightly) they need to get their hands dirty and do something drastic (as Pat had done), they fall foul of him - I think he has genuine grievances on that score, but this then overlooks comepltely that if the comic had stayed in teh hands of those who didnt care, it is doubtful it would have crawled into the new Century to be saved by Rebellion.By asscribing all the failures to the latter end of the 90s, he is mis-selling his argument and underines it consderably - the book makes it easier to see why he is more emotionally engaged in his gripes with the later editorial, but also makes me wish Pat could step back and see a wider picture and if there were mistakes (I'm sure there were), see they were made out of a love for the comic an desire to "save the patient" - a much better attitude than the DNR it seemed to hae over it's head prior to Bishop and Diggles tenure
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: TordelBack on 06 August, 2017, 01:13:43 PM
Spot on there, Leigh, those are exactly my feelings: the editorial process that that aggravated Mi!ls also saved the comic. Have to get the book now!
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Frank on 06 August, 2017, 04:07:35 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 06 August, 2017, 11:03:47 AM
Quote from: Greg M. on 05 August, 2017, 10:30:53 PM
Mills's response to Abnett writing Fleshl) was something along the lines of "How would Dan Abnett like it if I started writing Sinister / Dexter?"

But didn't Flesh have 4 or 5 writers in its first 6-month run, and then someone entirely different for Book 2?

Absolutely. Mills has a very weak case for exclusive authorship of Flesh or any of the other Prog One stories, but ...


Quote from: TordelBack on 06 August, 2017, 11:03:47 AM
Mills is fighting his corner here, there's no shame in that. In the absence of his creator's rights the only weapon he has is the threat of the gaffer's Ragin' Fury, more power to him if it works.

Yep. The occasional cries for Sláine or ABC Warriors to be given to other writers lead me to question the ability of readers to learn and understand the history of the medium:


Quote... one of the reasons I did Flesh with Tony Skinner was to prevent one of these marvellous new talents at Fleetway taking it over. I think they'd be better sticking to their own material. I'm very aware at the moment - and it's a source of some concern to me - that if I'm asked to do a strip and I'm too busy, there might be some miserable bastard out there who'd be scab enough to pick it over. I'm quite possessive about my stories, and I make it very clear that it's hands off. I'm quite militant about it. Perhaps, if one of my strips was important enough to Fleetway, my wishes would be steamrollered, but on the whole people are extremely reasonable ... Perhaps I'm a little paranoid thinking it could happen

Pat Mills in Comic Collector, 1992, quoted in Thrillpower Overload, p157

I sometimes wonder whether the strips where Skinner is credited as co-writer were really more recreations of Mills's role as launch editor* - a way of earning the equivalent of royalties from the continuing exploitation of his creations.

Maybe that's the way forward for the Mills stable of strips, now his self published prose is taking up an increasing amount of his semiretirement on the Costa del Sol.


* collaborating on devising a scenario then polishing the script once it came back to him.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: TordelBack on 06 August, 2017, 04:27:51 PM
Quote from: Frank on 06 August, 2017, 04:07:35 PM
Maybe that's the way forward for the Mills stable of strips, now his self published prose is taking up an increasing amount of his semiretirement on the Costa del Sol.

* collaborating on devising a scenario then polishing the script once it came back to him.

Interesting idea, but the Skinner examples don't inspire confidence.  I think we-the-reader (as opposed to Rebellion-the-IP-owners) are better served by new strips like Rennie's Aquila, which despite being a notional descendant of Blackhawk is far closer to my eyes to a replacement for Slaine, and Shakara worked better than fine as a replacement for Nemesis (which is finished anyway).  Plus the most recent books of ABC Warriors and Savage have been great fun, as good as anything from those strips' histories. 


Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Frank on 06 August, 2017, 05:28:03 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 06 August, 2017, 04:27:51 PM
I think we-the-reader ... are better served by new strips

Mills agrees - see the quote about new talents sticking to their own material, above. But we both know that the minute Mills jacks it in we'll be treated to Eddie Robson's Sláine and Rory McConville's ABC Warriors*, rather than look-a-like strips.

From a reader's perspective, house characters and clone strips work out the same. A fresh writer comes in and might work out well for a while, but they get bored and bogged down in continuity, exactly the same as the original writer and strip.

I'd rather read something new**.


* If Mills got some kind of royalty from that, I'm sure he"d be happy to put his feet up on a mistreated burro and get squiffy on sangria as the money for nothing rolls in. He must be as bored writing Sláine as some readers are reading it.

** The biggest sickness afflicting comic readers and publishers is the inability to recognise that there's nothing special about specific characters. Things are good for a while, then they're not - move on to something else, rather than fucking the same old hole until it's slack
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Leigh S on 06 August, 2017, 05:33:36 PM
Quote from: Frank on 06 August, 2017, 05:28:03 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 06 August, 2017, 04:27:51 PM
I think we-the-reader ... are better served by new strips

Mills agrees - see the quote about new talents sticking to their own material, above. But we both know that the minute Mills jacks it in we'll be treated to Eddie Robson's Sláine and Rory McConville's ABC Warriors*, rather than look-a-like strips.

From a reader's perspective, house characters and clone strips work out the same. A fresh writer comes in and might work out well for a while, but they get bored and bogged down in continuity, exactly the same as the original writer and strip.

I'd rather read something new**.


* If Mills got some kind of royalty from that, I'm sure he"d be happy to put his feet up on a mistreated burro and get squiffy on sangria as the money for nothing rolls in. He must be as bored writing Sláine as some readers are reading it.

** The biggest sickness afflicting comic readers and publishers is the inability to recognise that there's nothing special about specific characters. Things are good for a while, then they're not - move on to something else, rather than fucking the same old hole until it's slack


Mills makes teh very point in his book - if he was getting a royalty/payment for one of his characters when written by someone else, he would be somewhat less incensed by the idea (presuming he had first dibs and we weren't goong to get a Grant Morrison Dare style reimagining)
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Frank on 06 August, 2017, 06:45:38 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 06 August, 2017, 05:33:36 PM
Mills makes this very point in his book - if he was getting a royalty/payment for one of his characters when written by someone else, he would be somewhat less incensed by the idea (presuming he had first dibs and we weren't goong to get a Grant Morrison Dare style reimagining)

Cheers, Leigh. I've no idea why I hadn't ordered the book so far, but your discussion of its themes and topics has convinced me to do so right now.

Thanks to you, everyone who's expressed exasperation with Mills's output knows what they have to do to end their suffering - campaign for a royalty/rights recognition agreement on his behalf!

Some of them have actually suggested paying Mills to stop, so they're basically on the same page already.


Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: TordelBack on 06 August, 2017, 08:18:27 PM
Quote from: Frank on 06 August, 2017, 06:45:38 PM
Some of them have actually suggested paying Mills to stop, so they're basically on the same page already.

It'll be a very sad day for the prog when Mills writes his last script; anyone wishing to hurry its arrival needs to be beaten about the head with The Complete Fleisher.  And I speak as someone for whom Greysuit is a special kind of torture, but a price I'm willing to pay for the previous Defoe and the next Slaine.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Richard on 06 August, 2017, 09:38:58 PM
Very true.

Although on the other hand, the less time he spends writing for 2000AD, the more time he'll have to finally write the next chapter of Requiem Vampire Knight...
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Taryn Tailz on 07 August, 2017, 12:30:18 AM
Quote from: Richard on 06 August, 2017, 09:38:58 PM
Very true.

Although on the other hand, the less time he spends writing for 2000AD, the more time he'll have to finally write the next chapter of Requiem Vampire Knight...

Which in my opinion is perhaps his finest work post-millennium. I'm always a little saddened that Requiem Vampire Knight isn't a 2000AD strip, as it would likely appear more regularly then. Plus, there's the spin off, Chevalier Vampire Knight, which has yet to (and may never) get translated into English.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: sheridan on 07 August, 2017, 01:02:30 PM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 07 August, 2017, 12:30:18 AM
Quote from: Richard on 06 August, 2017, 09:38:58 PM
Very true.

Although on the other hand, the less time he spends writing for 2000AD, the more time he'll have to finally write the next chapter of Requiem Vampire Knight...

Which in my opinion is perhaps his finest work post-millennium. I'm always a little saddened that Requiem Vampire Knight isn't a 2000AD strip, as it would likely appear more regularly then. Plus, there's the spin off, Chevalier Vampire Knight, which has yet to (and may never) get translated into English.

I don't think it would fit in to 2000AD, but the creator-owned portion of the Megazine might have suited it (though that seems to have been replaced by Dreddworld content lately).
Title: Re: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: glassstanley on 07 August, 2017, 01:34:22 PM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 07 August, 2017, 12:30:18 AM
Quote from: Richard on 06 August, 2017, 09:38:58 PM
Very true.

Although on the other hand, the less time he spends writing for 2000AD, the more time he'll have to finally write the next chapter of Requiem Vampire Knight...

Which in my opinion is perhaps his finest work post-millennium. I'm always a little saddened that Requiem Vampire Knight isn't a 2000AD strip, as it would likely appear more regularly then. Plus, there's the spin off, Chevalier Vampire Knight, which has yet to (and may never) get translated into English.

The first 3 books were translated into English and published in Heavy Metal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Richard on 07 August, 2017, 03:26:16 PM
The first ten books are in English in Panini graphic novels. But the last one was a few years ago.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: I, Cosh on 07 August, 2017, 03:29:22 PM
Quote from: Richard on 07 August, 2017, 03:26:16 PM
The first ten books are in English in Panini graphic novels. But the last one was a few years ago.
I think Taryn's talking about the Claudia spinoff.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Taryn Tailz on 07 August, 2017, 05:42:32 PM
Quote from: I, Cosh on 07 August, 2017, 03:29:22 PM
Quote from: Richard on 07 August, 2017, 03:26:16 PM
The first ten books are in English in Panini graphic novels. But the last one was a few years ago.
I think Taryn's talking about the Claudia spinoff.

Indeed I am. The regular Requiem books are sitting on my bookshelf, so I'm very much aware of their existence. :P

In terms of the Claudia spin-off, I was one of a few lucky people who happened to be on Facebook when Pat Mills did a live Q and A on his page a few months back. I asked him about Chevalier Vampire Knight then, and if I remember rightly, he answered that any potential English translations might well be digital only releases.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: JLC on 07 August, 2017, 05:52:51 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 07 August, 2017, 01:02:30 PM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 07 August, 2017, 12:30:18 AM
Quote from: Richard on 06 August, 2017, 09:38:58 PM
Very true.

Although on the other hand, the less time he spends writing for 2000AD, the more time he'll have to finally write the next chapter of Requiem Vampire Knight...

Which in my opinion is perhaps his finest work post-millennium. I'm always a little saddened that Requiem Vampire Knight isn't a 2000AD strip, as it would likely appear more regularly then. Plus, there's the spin off, Chevalier Vampire Knight, which has yet to (and may never) get translated into English.

I don't think it would fit in to 2000AD, but the creator-owned portion of the Megazine might have suited it (though that seems to have been replaced by Dreddworld content lately).
I agree. Its great but would be an odd fit in 2000AD.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Leigh S on 07 August, 2017, 08:54:45 PM
For more on Requiem and how close it came to appearing in 2000AD, get ye to the book!

I also think Requiem would have been a very different beast if it had appeared in the progs

Quote from: JLC on 07 August, 2017, 05:52:51 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 07 August, 2017, 01:02:30 PM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 07 August, 2017, 12:30:18 AM
Quote from: Richard on 06 August, 2017, 09:38:58 PM
Very true.

Although on the other hand, the less time he spends writing for 2000AD, the more time he'll have to finally write the next chapter of Requiem Vampire Knight...

Which in my opinion is perhaps his finest work post-millennium. I'm always a little saddened that Requiem Vampire Knight isn't a 2000AD strip, as it would likely appear more regularly then. Plus, there's the spin off, Chevalier Vampire Knight, which has yet to (and may never) get translated into English.

I don't think it would fit in to 2000AD, but the creator-owned portion of the Megazine might have suited it (though that seems to have been replaced by Dreddworld content lately).
I agree. Its great but would be an odd fit in 2000AD.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Tomwe on 10 August, 2017, 09:52:10 AM
https://twitter.com/PatMillsComics/status/895326199013978113

John Wordballon Siuntres has interviewed Pat- look for it on the podcast soon.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Will Cooling on 10 August, 2017, 12:18:02 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 05 August, 2017, 11:20:20 PM
Quote from: Frank on 05 August, 2017, 11:15:50 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 05 August, 2017, 10:26:44 PM
Pat spends the first half of the book saying how you have to be a monster to be an editor, and at times trample all over creators feelings to get results. He then complains about David's "hobnail boots" and Andy's script doctoring.... I can see how he might perceive a difference, but it would be nice if he addressed the possible hypocrisy in this.

Exactly. This is the guy who brags about rewriting the first twelve issues of the comic.

I love Mills, and wouldn't want to see him get the John Smith treatment,  but he doesn't seem to realise that he's now the equivalent of the old IPC staffers who wanted everything done the same way because that's what worked in the past.

Or Tom Tully, stretching out stories for as long as possible, keeping the same old characters going long past their sell by date.*


* To be fair, if Mills wasn't writing Sláine and ABC Warriors, someone else would. And Pat wouldn't get a penny..

Indeed - I think Pat has finally convinced me that his 90s output was adversely affected by the powers that be "constraining" or at least befuddling and de-energizing him. I'd love to see more of his European work, such as Torturer - sounds like he was having more fun there, and that showed in the work he did for the progs at the time

He mentioned Torturer to me years and years ago, and I've hoped it'd see an English-language reprint ever since. Sounds absolutely mental.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: AlexF on 10 August, 2017, 03:07:06 PM
Now this is all more like it! Thank to all for answering my question about the content and value of the book - sounds as if it could have done with a proofreader, and that it does cover a fair bit of old ground from his blog / Future Shock / various interviews, but that aside is going to be hard for me to resist!

I must confess I do get quite defensive of the Prog when Mills gets on his high-horse about the failures of the 90s. It was the era when I really fell in love with 2000AD (as a teenager), and while I agree that it was the worst period in the Prog's mighty history, it was still better than 90% of the comics out there at the time!

And yes, he's absolutely right to insist on defending creator's rights both financially and morally, even if I secretly like the idea of reading Rory McConville's ABC Warriors one day. (With the appropriate % of payment going to Pat + Kev + Mick + Brendan, of course!)
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: JLC on 10 August, 2017, 10:23:12 PM
It is best book I ever read. EVER. Viva Pat!
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Richard on 12 August, 2017, 11:13:09 AM
It's a good book, and it's exactly what I'd expected and wanted.

But bloody hell, chapter 29 needed some proof-reading! It has non-existent words in it and you have to guess what he meant.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Richard on 12 August, 2017, 01:58:52 PM
Not so long ago, on the "is it me or the prog?" thread, we were debating series that have long gaps between them where we struggle to recall what happened in the last book, and whether there should be recaps and so on.

Pat's take on this issue is on page 222 (but you'll need to read the whole chapter), if anyone wants to know.
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Dandontdare on 12 August, 2017, 03:33:24 PM
Just ordered the paperback - I thought this was only going to be digital? Can't wait to get stuck in, but that cover is horrible!
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Leigh S on 12 August, 2017, 06:05:45 PM
The cover des make a kind of sense when you read about Pat's Lichtenstein plans for 2000AD...
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: Tomwe on 17 August, 2017, 09:35:36 AM
Word Balloon Comic Books Podcast presents
Pat Mills and The Secret History Of British Comics (Plus Mark Millar's Netflix Deal)
(https://ssl-static.libsyn.com/p/assets/5/7/8/8/57888487e57746e8/height_90_width_90_wbMillsMillar.jpg)
http://wordballoon.libsyn.com/pat-mills-and-the-secret-history-of-british-comics-plus-mark-millars-netflix-deal?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+WordballoonPodcasts+%28wordballoon-the+comic+book+conversation+site%29 (http://wordballoon.libsyn.com/pat-mills-and-the-secret-history-of-british-comics-plus-mark-millars-netflix-deal?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+WordballoonPodcasts+%28wordballoon-the+comic+book+conversation+site%29)
Title: Re: 2000AD & Judge Dredd: The Secret History by Pat Mills.
Post by: rogue69 on 15 October, 2017, 11:23:14 AM
there is a free companion book called The Artists' Debt Collection Party to go along side this about the Toxic! comic & the office raid by the writers & artists to get the money they were all owed from them.
But only a few people have downloaded it so if you are interested please check it out

https://dl.bookfunnel.com/s70kr47s2e?utm_source=Millsverse+Newsletter&utm_campaign=094d831cc9-Toxic+Debt+Collectors+freebie&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_cf425f8ae5-094d831cc9-160399289