Well I'd better start a new thread or else all the reviews will just end up on that Zenith thread.
I thought the new Judge Dredd story would be a one-off, but it's episode one of something longer. Quite funny, especially the first two panels on page 4 (but don't look ahead).
But the highlight for me is the art in the Rogue Trooper one-off. The way Leonardo Manco draws Rogue with his bayonet that looks like it's about to emerge from the page and stab the reader in the face is outstanding. It's also a well-written synopsis of who Rogue is for new readers, as it's been seven years since we last saw him in the regular prog. There's also an advert for a new Rogue computer game.
Grey Area is back for the start of a new storyline, this time in the Middle East. New readers might be puzzled by why Resting Bitch Face keeps being called Bitch, given that it's not obvious that this is in fact her name and not just harassment in the workplace.
Slainé plunges straight in with a massacre.
Indigo Prime is by John Smith, and not by someone else as in the new Devlin Waugh story in the Megazine. Fantastic art by Lee Carter (of course). I've been looking forward to this one, since the last series ended in such a mental place.
(There's the Zenith article but it has its own thread.)
There is a run-of-the-mill Sinister Dexter one-off. Not my cup of tea really, but the people who love this series might like it, and it's back next week. Art by Steve Yeowell.
The Fall of Deadworld does't really work as a one-off, since it follows on directly from the end of the last series and won't make much sense to anyone who hasn't read it. New readers might forgive it for the art though. The whole thing is suitably revolting, and it promises to all kick off in the next series.
Tharg, with these 48 pages you are really spoiling us...
Haven't finished it all yet but so far it is really fun read.
Dredd story was really good, and looking forward to future parts to the story. Not sure who the guy is who helps the people hide should we know him from previous progs?
Rogue Trooper: After listening to the Thrillcast podcast I was really looking forward to this and it delivered above my expectations. The art was amazing and the story was really well done. Hopefully get more of this soon.
Zenith: I thought it was going to be its own strip for some reason :-(. I wish Zenith was ageless to be honest, a bit like DC and Marvel Superheroes where the times change but the heroes don't really age. I'd prefer something where since he is super powered he ages slower. I'd prefer him as a cocky youth in todays times.
Haven't read any of the rest yet.
The Dredd character is new.
It has already been established in the Zenith stories that superheroes do age. Red Dragon in Phase One being a prime example.
Only read Dredd, Rogue and Indigo Prime so far. All fantastic, but the art on Rogue....oh my gosh. Absolutely incredible! :o
Quote from: Richard on 23 September, 2017, 06:00:17 PM
The Dredd character is new.
It has already been established in the Zenith stories that superheroes do age. Red Dragon in Phase One being a prime example.
Not true, he previously appeared in an earlier T.C. Eglington Dredd story, "The Sons of Booth", as their leader. Same M.O., same build / character design, and with the name of Linus (as in Robert
Linus Booth)
With artwork like this I want Rogue every week please.
Quote from: Richard on 23 September, 2017, 06:00:17 PM
It has already been established in the Zenith stories that superheroes do age. Red Dragon in Phase One being a prime example.
Aye, but Siadwell''s an alkie. Someone who didn't know better might (mistakenly) assume he'd just let himself go. Ruby Fox (Voltage) is a more clear cut example, since the reversal of her age is an important plot point.*
The
Zenith text piece is credited to Martin Howe**, the author of
Flying High, one of the books on St John's night stand when he's visited by Lux in
Phase II (595).
* When she becomes a Lloigor (632) - the other former members of Cloud 9 are horrible and beardy until they assume Lloigor form too. St John not only ages, he starts to look like Tony Blair (Zzzenith.com) - time is a cruel mistress
** Matt Smith
Thank you Batman's SC, I'd forgotten him.
Not a problem Richard!!! ;)
Thought this was a great issue especially rogue trooper and even slaine moved the story forward :lol:
Great onboarding Prog. Nice hefty lump of solid thrillpower.
Been enjoying Eglington's Dredd of late and this is no exception. Setting up a story nicely. My only beef is the way Hershey dismissing Dredd's advice with a dimissive "Trust me. It'll blow over." is just setting her up for a fail (I'm assuming) and seeming daft, as so many have before when dismissing Joe's warnings. I mean you'd think they'd learn and I think Hershey deserves better than that. Still as I say nice set up and looking forward to seeing how this goes.
Rogue Trooper is a great story with some flashly if a little crowded art which does somewhat stifle a lean and well crafted tale.
Grey Area opens a new arc with a scene and curious remit change, and with this we're off to war? We'll see and while the set-up feels a little forced its done wonderfully and I'm really happy this series is back.
Slaine does what Slaine does its fun and frolics and chopping and what not as Pat prepares to preach, but what fun.
We get a John Smith opener in Indigo Prime and he's setting things up beautifully for Kek-W to take up. Speaking of beautiful Lee Carter is on art.
Zenith text piece is a nicly realised recap and way to bring the character up to date. I wonder how long it will be before the line "he's about to release a new full length album, his first in years, and he's hinted it will be his last" gets interrupted as Matt Smith speaking through the piece to tell us we have a final series coming!
The cream of the crop is Sinister Dexter with a gloriously sharp and funny done in one (I think) setting up a new member of the supporting cast, all helpful and useful... I wonder if that's all he'll be? Still REALLY enjoyed this one and long may the Mighty Yeowell stay on S&D, stoked this one is one of the returning stories next week.
Deadworld is a grim return to justice depatment for Fairfax and builds that bit of the deadworld quite brilliantly and whose that at the end then. Some folks will be very excited about that I suspect. This continues to defy by expectations bt being horrible in a great way.
So yeah if I was jumping onto this Prog I'd sure as hell be sticking around. This is just a great comic and I've seen a few this weekend!
The lighting on Rogues First page art really baffles me. Specifically his right arm and left leg.
Quote from: Jamie1000013 on 23 September, 2017, 05:49:43 PM
I wish Zenith was ageless to be honest, a bit like DC and Marvel Superheroes where the times change but the heroes don't really age. I'd prefer something where since he is super powered he ages slower. I'd prefer him as a cocky youth in todays times.
Nah in twenty years time I want to see Zenith turn into Neil Young (or Tom Waits maybe... actually Tom Waits might work better) a magnificent grouch of a man all wild and force of nature!
Quote from: Richard on 23 September, 2017, 04:54:12 PM
There is a run-of-the-mill Sinister Dexter one-off. Not my cup of tea really, but the people who love this series might like it, and it's back next week. Art by Steve Yeowell.
I can't speak for the simply legion other S&D fans but this one - Yep it was magnificent!
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 24 September, 2017, 02:29:33 PM
Quote from: Jamie1000013 on 23 September, 2017, 05:49:43 PM
I wish Zenith was ageless to be honest, a bit like DC and Marvel Superheroes where the times change but the heroes don't really age. I'd prefer something where since he is super powered he ages slower. I'd prefer him as a cocky youth in todays times.
Nah in twenty years time I want to see Zenith turn into Neil Young (or Tom Waits maybe... actually Tom Waits might work better) a magnificent grouch of a man all wild and force of nature!
Quote from: Richard on 23 September, 2017, 04:54:12 PM
There is a run-of-the-mill Sinister Dexter one-off. Not my cup of tea really, but the people who love this series might like it, and it's back next week. Art by Steve Yeowell.
I can't speak for the simply legion other S&D fans but this one - Yep it was magnificent!
Yeah, imagine him getting the old band back together for that lucrative reunion tour! :lol:
Quote from: Swerty on 23 September, 2017, 08:58:57 PM
With artwork like this I want Rogue every week please.
Absolutely - I thought the
Rogue Trooper art was amazing too!! I'm really sad that it was a one-off. I find pure black and white strips difficult to read quite often but this one was beautifully crafted and I had no probelm at all.
I liked the new
Dredd story (and the link to 'Sons of Booth') - it seems like this could get really interesting as it develops.
Grey Area also looked excellent with a new and challenging environment for the team to work in and a new team for Musk.
I've not read
Slaine before so I didn't really get it, however I have got Issue 1 of the Ultimate 2000AD collection which features Slaine in my
'to read' pile so maybe I can get into that sooner reather than later and then figure out what's what!
The biggest treat for me this week was Lee Carter's art in
Indigo Prime which was just gorgeous. I keep looking at it again and again. It's some of the very best comic art I've ever seen. In terms of the story the background thingy at the front of the prog gave me some basic info but I wanted more to really get into the story so I've been reading around a bit. The Wiki overview of Indigo Prime was pretty helpful here .. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo_Prime (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo_Prime) but it still didn't tell me what the
Christhulhu event was. The whole thing looks really interesting though. (Any background on that event from anyone who knows would be great!)
Sinister Dexter was odd, funny and refreshing. I enjoyed it.
The Fall of Deadworld also looked good. I'm still enjoying Dave Kendall's art.
Overall I thought it was a good prog with some outstanding art. For me more introduction / background info for Slaine and Indigo Prime would have helped.
The last Indigo Prime story ended when [spoiler]a Nazi time-travelled back to the crucifixion, killed Jesus and replaced him with an imposter who the god Cthuhlu then used to become incarnate on Earth as Christhulu, who was then worshipped for the next two thousand years.[/spoiler]
(See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu) if you don't know who Cthulhu is.)
Lots of good this week, but that Archon font.. my eyes!
Quote from: Richard on 24 September, 2017, 03:57:44 PM
The last Indigo Prime story ended when [spoiler]a Nazi time-travelled back to the crucifixion, killed Jesus and replaced him with an imposter who the god Cthuhlu then used to become incarnate on Earth as Christhulu, who was then worshipped for the next two thousand years.[/spoiler]
(See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu) if you don't know who Cthulhu is.)
Quite a serious breach in the timeline then! ...And this is what's caused the psychic shock to most of the imagineers. Got it - thanks!
Although, just to avoid confusion, we should point out that the Fake Jesus who replaced what Unthur refers to as 'the real/authentic/historical Jesus' on the cross was an Anonybody - a sort of blank slate shop window dummy that can be programmed to assume any physical form.
So it's not as if Cthulhu possessed Fake Jesus or ruled on Earth for two millennia; Fake Jesus was just programmed to go a bit octopussy, so people would worship that instead of the Kinky S&M Bjorn Borg Jesus we were all led to believe wanted us as sunbeams.
Reichsfuhrer Schröder wasn't trying to manifest Cthulhu on Earth, he was trying to build an egregor - to manipulate the group mind or (as Agent Burroughs puts it) to 'weaponise belief on a global scale' (1887).
It's unclear whether Cthulhu is any more real in the fictional universe(s) of Indigo Prime than it is in our own.
The Cthulhu we see at the end of Perfect Day (1880-1887) is no more the real/authentic/historical Cthulhu than Fake Jesus/Christhulhu was the real/authentic/historical Jesus (or Cthulhu). This Cthulhu is just another monster engineered by Osama Bin Obama*, which can be manipulated using an X-Box controller.
And of course the Nazi who engineers the egregor/Christhulhu isn't a Nazi in the sense we understand. Schröder's Reichsfuhrer of a reality where the Nazis won WWII and - for reasons we will now never know - lizards dressed in German army uniform stand guard outside Buckingham Palace.
That Wikipedia link is out of date, by the way. It's based on information contained in the first Indigo Prime strip (678), which claimed the organisation managed just 53 realities and employed a few dozen operatives.
When the strip returned from an 18 year hiatus, we discovered there has been both an unexplained 'event' and 'upgrade' that mean there are now untold millions of alternate realities and Indigo Prime has lost half its operatives (1752-1753).
Formerly, Indigo Prime appeared to act with impunity, but since the unspecified event/upgrade they are now answerable to 'Overseers', amorphous extra dimensional entities. We'll never learn the intended backgrounds to the event/upgrade, the Overseers, or The Nihilist, because the strip's creator appears to have parted ways with Tharg (as of next issue).
Glad to clear up any confusion. John Smith would be mortified if he thought anyone found Indigo Prime confusing.
* Like the ones we saw fighting/shagging in the opening episode of Perfect Day
Thanks Frank, I'd forgotten that Chtulhu wasn't (necessarily) real in that story.
Quote from: Richard on 24 September, 2017, 07:38:01 PM
I'd forgotten that Chtulhu wasn't (necessarily) real in that story.
If it walks like a Cthulhu and quacks like a Cthulhu, it might as well be a Cthulhu.
** I really just thought it would be funny to write a pointlessly long post, full of unnecessary detail, under the guise of seeking clarity. No offence intended to yourself or JoFox.
Better late than Thought Bubbled
(https://i.imgur.com/VKvnKCZ.jpg)
Still not received it :(
Quote from: Sinister Vegas on 25 September, 2017, 10:20:33 AM
Still not received it :(
Same here. :(
I was told my copy was being sent from the warehouse rather than through the usual channel and I had an email last Friday saying it had been dispatched, so no idea why it's not turned up yet. Poor!
Why is John Smith no longer working for 2000Ad?? Its a real loss if thats true
Quote from: UncleBaal on 25 September, 2017, 01:42:35 PM
Why is John Smith no longer working for 2000Ad?? Its a real loss if thats true
Nobody knows and Tharg's not telling.
Smith posted on social media in February, announcing he'd written the first three episodes of a new series of
Indigo Prime. Smith replied to comments on the post, saying the story touched on sexual abuse by high profile figures at Dolphin Square.
A short time later, Matt Smith (Tharg) replied, telling Smith to contact him before proceeding further with the story. And that's all I know.
From Smith's post at the time, it seems like there was a two year break between writing the first two episodes and the third ("After nearly two years, I'm finally writing Episode 3 of the new Indigo Prime. Hope it's bonkers!"). But yeah, it certainly sounded like the story may have been going in a very... challenging direction.
It'd definitely be a massive shame if he didn't write for 2000AD again, but some of Smith's more recent social media comments have made it sound like his interests currently lie more towards writing prose than comics.
Quote from: 13school on 25 September, 2017, 02:40:29 PM
From Smith's post at the time, it seems like there was a two year break between writing the first two episodes and the third ("After nearly two years, I'm finally writing Episode 3 of the new Indigo Prime. Hope it's bonkers!")
Yeah, I'm sure there are a number of reasons. Given the huge gaps between installments of other series
(Brass Sun, Stickleback, Jaegir, etc) I'm not sure hiatuses are reason enough alone.
I'm also pretty sure that if Tharg had asked readers whether they wanted a new series of
Indigo Prime/Devlin Waugh right now but with new writers, or to wait until Smith's muse started cooperating, the latter option would have won by a landslide.
The 18 year gap between
Killing Time and
Dead Eyes/Everything and More didn't seem to hurt.
Having a new Indigo Prime story would also make it possible to bundle it into a reprint with the uncollected Perfect Day from 2014. That might be a consideration.
Quote from: 13school on 25 September, 2017, 04:12:14 PM
Having a new Indigo Prime story would also make it possible to bundle it into a reprint with the uncollected Perfect Day from 2014. That might be a consideration.
It'd be a pretty slim volume, mind you.
Quote from: Frank on 24 September, 2017, 07:35:03 PM
Although, just to avoid confusion, we should point out that the Fake Jesus who replaced what Unthur refers to as 'the real/authentic/historical Jesus' on the cross was an Anonybody - a sort of blank slate shop window dummy that can be programmed to assume any physical form.
So it's not as if Cthulhu possessed Fake Jesus or ruled on Earth for two millennia; Fake Jesus was just programmed to go a bit octopussy, so people would worship that instead of the Kinky S&M Bjorn Borg Jesus we were all led to believe wanted us as sunbeams.
Reichsfuhrer Schröder wasn't trying to manifest Cthulhu on Earth, he was trying to build an egregor - to manipulate the group mind or (as Agent Burroughs puts it) to 'weaponise belief on a global scale' (1887).
It's unclear whether Cthulhu is any more real in the fictional universe(s) of Indigo Prime than it is in our own.
The Cthulhu we see at the end of Perfect Day (1880-1887) is no more the real/authentic/historical Cthulhu than Fake Jesus/Christhulhu was the real/authentic/historical Jesus (or Cthulhu). This Cthulhu is just another monster engineered by Osama Bin Obama*, which can be manipulated using an X-Box controller.
And of course the Nazi who engineers the egregor/Christhulhu isn't a Nazi in the sense we understand. Schröder's Reichsfuhrer of a reality where the Nazis won WWII and - for reasons we will now never know - lizards dressed in German army uniform stand guard outside Buckingham Palace.
That Wikipedia link is out of date, by the way. It's based on information contained in the first Indigo Prime strip (678), which claimed the organisation managed just 53 realities and employed a few dozen operatives.
When the strip returned from an 18 year hiatus, we discovered there has been both an unexplained 'event' and 'upgrade' that mean there are now untold millions of alternate realities and Indigo Prime has lost half its operatives (1752-1753).
Formerly, Indigo Prime appeared to act with impunity, but since the unspecified event/upgrade they are now answerable to 'Overseers', amorphous extra dimensional entities. We'll never learn the intended backgrounds to the event/upgrade, the Overseers, or The Nihilist, because the strip's creator appears to have parted ways with Tharg (as of next issue).
Glad to clear up any confusion. John Smith would be mortified if he thought anyone found Indigo Prime confusing.
* Like the ones we saw fighting/shagging in the opening episode of Perfect Day
Wow - mind blown - what a story! I hope John Smith doesn't leave the team.
Quote from: Frank on 25 September, 2017, 01:56:27 PMSmith posted on social media in February, announcing he'd written the first three episodes of a new series of Indigo Prime. Smith replied to comments on the post, saying the story touched on sexual abuse by high profile figures at Dolphin Square.
Given that Tharg seems to have had no problems with Greysuit covering similar ground, that might suggest that Smith's scripts went a lot further. (Possibly naming real, living people, with real, living lawyers?)
Quote from: The Corinthian on 25 September, 2017, 07:51:11 PM
Quote from: Frank on 25 September, 2017, 01:56:27 PMSmith posted on social media in February, announcing he'd written the first three episodes of a new series of Indigo Prime. Smith replied to comments on the post, saying the story touched on sexual abuse by high profile figures at Dolphin Square.
Given that Tharg seems to have had no problems with Greysuit covering similar ground, that might suggest that Smith's scripts went a lot further. (Possibly naming real, living people, with real, living lawyers?)
Might be a factor in why Greysuit has been canned indefinitely, with it's potential for bating influential organisations, which is a real shame.
Naming real people who could sue for defamation is one thing. Satire based on real events isn't actionable. I'm sure if Smith wrote the former, Tharg would just have asked him for a minor rewrite to turn it into the latter. It's not a reason to cancel the whole storyline and ditch the writer. I suspect there's more to this then we know.
Quote from: The Corinthian on 25 September, 2017, 07:51:11 PM
Quote from: Frank on 25 September, 2017, 01:56:27 PMSmith posted on social media in February, announcing he'd written the first three episodes of a new series of Indigo Prime. Smith replied to comments on the post, saying the story touched on sexual abuse by high profile figures at Dolphin Square.
Given that Tharg seems to have had no problems with Greysuit covering similar ground, that might suggest that Smith's scripts went a lot further. (Possibly naming real, living people, with real, living lawyers?)
Possibly, although Mills -
a provocateur, but also an old pro with a preservation instinct - got round that one with a judicious
Porpoise Square here and a less than subtle
Johnny Sahib there.
I'm sure Tharg could have subbed all the names to
Harvey Doctor or
Hedward Teeth, if that was
the only problem. That leaves us with a scenario where Smith refused to agree to even that small degree of obfuscation, which seems unlikely.
There might be other, more personal reasons that mean Tharg's reluctant to go into detail, but he must also have realised that ending the association between his third longest serving script droid* and his creations isn't something we're
ever going to stop discussing.**
* Fourth longest serving droid in general, after King Carlos. Only the holy trinity, the founding fathers, enjoy longer relationships with Tharg. Smith predates the 2000ad logo, ferchrissakes.
** And now Thrillpower Overload has caught up with the current regime, it's not as if we can rely on a future volume to lance this particular boil
For whatever reason, it is regrettable.
We still need a bit of that good old fashioned militant (Mills-itant?) "fuck you!" punk attitude in the Prog.
Greysuit was about as punk as Vera Lynn. :P
Quote from: Frank on 25 September, 2017, 09:18:51 PMThere might be other, more personal reasons that mean Tharg's reluctant to go into detail, but he must also have realised that ending the association between his third longest serving script droid* and his creations isn't something we're ever going to stop discussing.**
I have to confess that, as someone who started subscribing regularly to Tooth again after many years in large part because Indigo Prime came back, losing Smith is going to be a huge jolt. I'm not pre-judging his successors here. It's just that... no matter how good, and fun, and inventive, and off-the-wall future episodes turn out to be...
no one writes like John Smith.
Picked this up at TB even though I still have a few weeks on my digital sub.
Solid prog, interesting to see the shift in events in Grey Area, especially coming soon after the last shift offworld. The resting bitch face joke is wearing a bit thin though - and for a jumping on prog doesn't even explain it - I could certainly see a new reader picking it up and wondering why this is arsehole if constantly calling one of the characters 'bitch'.
When I first read the synopsis for Dredd I thought it was a reaction to events in the states, but on the TB panel Tom said it had been written before that.
Always good to see Colin in the prog - would love to see him do a Dredd (even partially in the Defoe/Insurrection style - maybe for flashbacks)
Rogue Trooper is well told and drawn, but given it's a self-contained thing which ties in with the game's release, and his story is done, it's probably the toughest of the classic line up to do much with.
Funny how there's nothing from the chips, and very little dialogue from Rogue.
The Zenith article is a fun little retrospective.
Slaine - always love Simon's art, but think that it's suffering without Ukko's presence, and I had problems with the pacing on the last couple of runs.
Sinister Dexter - again, fun but no idea where it's going now that it's hit its reset button.
Indigo Prime - not going to get involved in speculating the whys/wherefores behind the script changes, have to see where it goes.
Deadworld - my favourite thing in the prog by a country mile of the past year or so, and frustrating that it's just a taster for the series to come.
Lovelrly heft to the Prog and glad to see TMO on message with hipster beards ::)
Dredd Highlight of the Prog for me, great story and timely, totally loving the Happyshrapnel Droid's art.
Was that fight scene drawn from the bar at Tharg's 40th bash? loved the wee flying dug too :lol:
Rogue Trooper is well told, but I always feel there is so little to be done with RT himself, his world on the other hand is a great sandbox for the GRennie droid to play in :thumbsup:
Grey Area, Agreed: constantly calling one of the characters 'bitch' isn't helpful or indeed funny. The first and last page tells it all really and so little action too.
The Zenith article is a fun little retrospective.Seconded, but I would have preferred a Citadel of Solitude or an Ozymandias style retreat, with a mad, bad and dangerous to know Zenith driven mad by his out there experiences.
Slaine - looks loverly, and thankful light on the chat too, but when oh when will he ever get that final McGuffin?
Sinister Dexter - Art benefits with colour by leaps and bounds, but I stopped caring about these two a couple of re-sets ago.
Indigo Prime - no a scubby, but liking the art.
Deadworld - my least favourite thing in the prog by a country mile of the past year or so, and frustrating that it's just a taster for the series to come.
So over all a great jumping on prog for seeing the full range of current art that comics can do, but story wise it lacks big hooks! I think that's down to the constraints of writing for long long long played out ongoing series( cept Dredd obvs!)
And no letter page! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 25 September, 2017, 11:01:07 PM
Greysuit was about as punk as Vera Lynn. :P
She was for her day, she emboldened us against the Nazis! ;)
Just a quick word on Zenith being ageless.
Despite having the appearance of middle-age in this prog he could, in theory, go back to his former youthfulness. That's exactly what Ruby did in Phase III and presumably Zenith has the same latent ability.
As for Peter St. John [spoiler]dying – sure. He's still a puppet-master – it's just no-one can see him now[/spoiler].
Maybe Zenith could become young again, but what would be the point? We've seen that already. I prefer it when characters change and develop.
Example: Dante went from being that long-haired, carefree, cocky rogue who never took anything seriously to a worn down, cynical, war veteran with a shaved head, by the time the series got to the Tsar Wars saga. Then after that story ended he immediately transformed back to his old self again, as if the war and all the tragedy he'd seen had never happened, and it was never as good again.
Quote from: Richard on 26 September, 2017, 08:11:08 PMThen after that story ended he immediately transformed back to his old self again, as if the war and all the tragedy he'd seen had never happened, and it was never as good again.
I must have missed that. I saw a man desperately
trying to be his old self again, but never succeeding.
Quote from: TordelBack on 26 September, 2017, 08:18:18 PM
I must have missed that. I saw a man desperately trying to be his old self again, but never succeeding.
Very much
this.
Must have gone over my head at the time. Something to watch out for if I re-read it.
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 26 September, 2017, 07:22:04 PM
Zenith ... could, in theory, go back to his former youthfulness. That's exactly what Ruby did in Phase III and presumably Zenith has the same latent ability.
That scene (632) looks like the laying on of hands, to me. Dave and Penny talk about teaching Ruby, but it's a demonstration of their power.
"The universe is potter's clay in our hands" and so is Ruby.
Presumably what they do to Ruby in
Phase III is a less cruel version of what they do to Peyne in
Phase IV. Peyne doesn't have Maximan serum running through his veins, so reversing the ageing process doesn't appear to be an inherent property of superdom.*
* It's a magic trick the Lloigor learn - same as terraforming cities and possessing other people. Zenith doesn't have that knowledge and doesn't seem interested in broadening his mind or his skill set.
Quote from: Frank on 26 September, 2017, 10:15:38 PM
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 26 September, 2017, 07:22:04 PM
Zenith ... could, in theory, go back to his former youthfulness. That's exactly what Ruby did in Phase III and presumably Zenith has the same latent ability.
That scene (632) looks like the laying on of hands, to me. Dave and Penny talk about teaching Ruby, but it's a demonstration of their power. "The universe is potter's clay in our hands" and so is Ruby.
Presumably what they do to Ruby in Phase III is a less cruel version of what they do to Peyne in Phase IV.
Peyne doesn't have Maximan serum running through his veins, so reversing the ageing process doesn't appear to be an inherent property of superdom.*
* It's a magic trick the Lloigor learn - same as terraforming cities and possessing other people. Zenith doesn't have that knowledge and doesn't seem interested in broadening his mind or his skill set.
I think you are wrong. The ability to appear younger is part of their assention/evolution. Zenith and St Jhon could do but chose not to. It's not long muted to cloud 9 and their descendants/clones. DJ chill evolves too, implying and superhuman could given the circumstances. What they do to Payne is unrelated.
Yeah, I'd have to agree with Steven. The transformation of their physical bodies is just a sideshow aspect of their transcendence from the three-dimensional universe - it's a first step on becoming Lloigor, not a simple age-reversal - and what they do to Peyne is just a cruel and unrelated parlour trick. Whether Lux and Penny actually teach Ruby, or transform her themselves, is probably just circumsrtance: the technique is learnable once the potential is there.
The fact that Zenith's child with Blaze is capable of becoming Iok Sotot implies that this effect of the serum is also genetically heritable, so Zenith would be capable of doing it too: that he and Peter don't make use of it because it's not just magic botox, it's an abandoning of their humanity.
Quote from: Steven Denton on 26 September, 2017, 11:44:41 PM
Quote from: Frank on 26 September, 2017, 10:15:38 PM
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 26 September, 2017, 07:22:04 PM
Zenith ... could, in theory, go back to his former youthfulness. That's exactly what Ruby did in Phase III and presumably Zenith has the same latent ability.
That scene (632) looks like the laying on of hands, to me. Dave and Penny talk about teaching Ruby, but it's a demonstration of their power. "The universe is potter's clay in our hands" and so is Ruby.
Presumably what they do to Ruby in Phase III is a less cruel version of what they do to Peyne in Phase IV.
Peyne doesn't have Maximan serum running through his veins, so reversing the ageing process doesn't appear to be an inherent property of superdom.*
* It's a magic trick the Lloigor learn - same as terraforming cities and possessing other people. Zenith doesn't have that knowledge and doesn't seem interested in broadening his mind or his skill set.
I think you are wrong. The ability to appear younger is part of their assention/evolution. Zenith and St Jhon could do but chose not to. It's not limited to cloud 9 and their descendants/clones. DJ chill evolves too, implying any superhuman could given the circumstances. What they do to Payne is unrelated.
I wrote this on my phone whilst half asleep and the god dammed predictive text butchered it. I'm glade you understood what I was trying to say TordelBack
(Lux chooses to appear older right up until the middle of 4 except for when he's in his sparkly, gentile free, evolved form. For different reasons, it seems we agree that Zenith couldn't simply go back to being nineteen though.)
Quote from: dweezil2 on 26 September, 2017, 06:57:44 PM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 25 September, 2017, 11:01:07 PM
Greysuit was about as punk as Vera Lynn. :P
She was for her day, she emboldened us against the Nazis! ;)
Well played sir. :P
A solid prog.Promising start for Dredd.Robinsons RT was good,but its been done before.
Zenith story (or article) was pretty much what I expected.One statment there is oddly timed. :)
Quote from: Steven Denton on 27 September, 2017, 10:16:23 AM
I think you are wrong.
I'm not sure you do, Steve. I disputed the characterisation of Ruby's Olay Regenerist treatment as the self activation of a
'latent ability'.
Dave and Penny can do that to Ruby (and to themselves) because they've
learned "complete control over the structure of matter" (801), not some
latent ability.
Describing a learned technique* as awakening an inherent power is like saying I passed my driving test because of a
latent ability.
* ... even if the technique learned involves exploiting inherent abilities
Quote from: Frank on 27 September, 2017, 05:52:19 PM
Quote from: Steven Denton on 27 September, 2017, 10:16:23 AM
I think you are wrong.
I'm not sure you do, Steve. I disputed the characterisation of Ruby's Olay Regenerist treatment as the self activation of a 'latent ability'.
Dave and Penny can do that to Ruby (and to themselves) because they've learned "complete control over the structure of matter" (801), not some latent ability.
Describing a learned technique* as awakening an inherent power is like saying I passed my driving test because of a latent ability.
* ... even if the technique learned involves exploiting inherent abilities
No it isn't because passing your driving test and being a superhuman are not equatable.
the least important element of your interpretation was weather Ruby's changed was learnt (although given the rapid telepathic exchanges in book 4 I think it's fair to say your reading of her transformation is just one possibility)
You were completely wrong about Payne. Your agument was Ruby was changed and didn't how the power to change herself thus Zenith could not change himself. Which I also believe to be wrong, but at least open to interpretation, so not quite as wrong.
Zenith 'learns' telepathy and pyro powers without any real instruction. He's told he can do it, then he does it. He knows he can evolve, he chooses not too.
I am perfectly capable of thinking you are wrong and disagreeing with your interpretations.
Rogue - hmm ..I don't realy like these stories that recap previous events. But I can see why they would do that considering it's a jumping on Prog and the revamped game is out.
Deadworld- I had forgotten [spoiler]Jessie had been killed.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]No she wasn't - they think she's dead but she's rescued by the mutant kids that she shared food with earlier in that story[/spoiler]
Quote from: Steven Denton on 27 September, 2017, 10:16:23 AM
I think you are wrong ... No it isn't ... the least important element of your interpretation ... You were completely wrong ... Which I also believe to be wrong ... I am perfectly capable of thinking you are wrong
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, Steve.
You, me and TordelBack agree on almost everything. The only thing you and I disagree on is whether Ruby restores her own youth or is rejuvenated by others.*
* prog 632
Thanks Steve.[spoiler]I did wonder if they had it wrong as I didn't remember it.[/spoiler]
Quote from: Frank on 28 September, 2017, 05:16:20 PM
Quote from: Steven Denton on 27 September, 2017, 10:16:23 AM
I think you are wrong ... No it isn't ... the least important element of your interpretation ... You were completely wrong ... Which I also believe to be wrong ... I am perfectly capable of thinking you are wrong
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, Steve.
You, me and TordelBack agree on almost everything. The only thing you and I disagree on is whether Ruby restores her own youth or is rejuvenated by others.*
* prog 632
We do agree on almost everything. I think the point of contention was if Zenith could, in theory, become young again. I think the strip establishes he could. I believe you were arguing he couldn't based on Ruby's de-aging (which although I disagree with you interpretation I see where you are coming from, and Payne's backwards aging, which I think you were mistaken over)
I initially thought that Zenith or St John evolving would be a dangerous step towards becoming a Lloigor, but I had forgotten that Chimira is 'thought unencomberd by flesh' much like the Lloigor, yet benign.
It's implied that Zenith has the powers of all of Task force UK, which presumably would include chimera.
I wouldn't like to see an ageless Zenith but nothing in the strip prohibits it or fully defines the consiquences.
Quote from: Magnetica on 28 September, 2017, 06:44:12 PM
Thanks Steve.[spoiler]I did wonder if they had it wrong as I didn't remember it.[/spoiler]
You're welcome!
Of late, I've been running a bit hot and cold on the prog- skipping The Alienist, bored of Dredd, only really liking Hope and Greysuit. You know how it is, it's the lament of the long term Squaxx.
This one though, was fantastic. A jolt to the circuits, with nearly every strip Thrilling in a way they haven't done for a while. Only Indigo Prime didn't float my boat, but that's because I really can't remember a sodding thing about the last series and have no idea what's going on.
Top Thrills: SiniDex, Grey Area, Slaine.
Bubbling under: Rogue- the art was phenomenal and I've not enjoyed a Rogue strip as much as that in years. Also Dredd, which seemed invigorated after that last one.
Better than I expected: Deadworld, which made sense and featured characters I recognised for a change, and Zenith, which wasnt an insult to the original and made me smile.
Indigo Prime will improve once I've reread the last series. Anyone remember which progs it was in?
Great prog, better than #2000 I reckon. Hope it's similarly successful for Rebellion.
SBT
Very strong prog. Praise be to Tharg! Message ends.
Last series of IP was in progs 1880-1887.
So, what to think of this epochal embarkation edition?
As I was reading it, I realised that for each story there were two questions which needed to be addressed: 'Is it any good?' (thankfully the answer was a resounding 'Yes' in all cases) and 'Is it any good as part of a jumping-on prog?' (here the answers were less conclusive).
Cover: Impeccable work, as always from Simon Davis. Phenomenally good use of colours.
But is it any good as part of a jumping-on prog? No. It might sound like a cliche but for me, an effective jumping-on cover needs to have a collage of characters exploding from the page, it needs to proclaim "Look at what we've got in here!!". This is beautiful but way too subtle.
Dredd: The statue thing is a decent idea, which serves well to give us a window on the citizens' attitudes to Dredd. The vulture-like news team are far too blatant a lift from Jake Gyllenhaal's 2014 film Nightcrawler, though. Still, interesting to see where this one goes, and I much prefer Colin MacNeil's caricaturist lined artwork to the fully-painted stuff he did for Defoe.
But is it any good as part of a jumping-on prog? Not really. We're straight in with a reference to a storyline from five years ago. Might have been better with some slightly more standard 'this is how Dredd works the streets' vignettes.
Rogue Trooper: Stunning. The art is great enough but good Grud, the story is a belter. The fact that the Commander knows he's doomed right from the first frame - and remains calm and analytical even as his deputy becomes steadily more panic-stricken - is so chilling. Immense.
But is it any good as part of a jumping-on prog? Emphatically YES. Infinitely better than the first episode of the original run, or any of the re-boots and tie-ins. Even though Rogue hardly speaks and the biochips don't get a look in, it's perfect first-timer fodder.
Grey Area: Great start to what will presumably be a major new plot. Nice to see ETC moving out of their comfort zone. Bring it on.
But is it any good as part of a jumping-on prog? Yeah, good enough. We get the gist, no need for major re-introductions. But yes, probably a good idea to refer in the first instance to 'Resting Bitch Face'.
Slaine: WOAH, THAT FONT... Soth! How did that get through? Horrible! No more! As expected from Pat these days there's not exactly dialogue, simply treatises and hypotheses delivered by the characters. The second and third page double-spread was nicely drawn (did I mention I love Simon Davies' art?) even though it seemed a bit weird that all the adversaries were facing in the same direction rather than attacking Slaine and Sinead. Then... what happens between pages three and four? They're being attacked by a giant wielding a stone axe, then, they're suddenly on the run on a plain outside a city...? Perplexing.
But is it any good as part of a jumping-on prog? Nah. Hopping in right in the middle of a story. No attempt to bring new readers up to speed at all. Must do better.
Indigo Prime: Having been away from 2000 AD for the best part of 26 years I haven't read any Indigo Prime (unless he was part of the Tyranny Rex stories?), so this was pleasant, if a little bewildering. Great artistic take on Burroughs. And the Zoom lolly.
But is it any good as part of a jumping-on prog? John Smith's stuff is pretty bewildering even for seasoned 2000 AD readers, isn't it?
Sinister Dexter: Again, I stopped reading the progs a couple of years before these two joined, so the only S/D I know is from their few episodes earlier this year. Abnett is just about my favourite 2000 AD writer though, so I'm enjoying it despite a lack of knowledge.
But is it any good as part of a jumping-on prog? Perhaps Tharg would have been better holding the episodes from a few months ago over, to begin here? That represented more of a (re-)starting point, didn't it.
Deadworld: Did I say Abnett is just about my favourite 2000 AD writer? I meant joint-favourite, along with Kek-W. Loved the last run of Deadworld and the quality is just as high here. Those 'dogs'! Ew.
But is it any good as part of a jumping-on prog? Well, it's an on-going story, so in that sense it's a bit wanting. I guess one mitigating factor is that returning readers from the heyday of 2000 AD should at least remember The Dark Judges and their world of origin, so it might not seem too unfamiliar.
There you go then, prog 2050. Jump on board, take a ride. As long as you're prepared to fill in the blanks.
Quote from: norton canes on 29 September, 2017, 04:10:25 PM
The vulture-like news team are far too blatant a lift from Jake Gyllenhaal's 2014 film Nightcrawler
Wasn't the most jarring reference.
When extolling the virtues of comics as a medium, it's common to note that while a film's journey from page to screen may take years, comic creators struck by inspiration can share their thoughts with their audience in a matter of weeks.
Judge Dredd: Icon and
Zenith suggest we might need to revisit that in light of the increased churn rate of social media. Statues and
punching standing up to Nazis were all anyone was talking about in August, but that feels like a lifetime ago.
By the time Mike Carroll brings us
Judge Dredd: Rocket Man or
How Do You Survive A Hurricane Like Maria?, we'll have moved on to round two of Brexit and the US mid-terms. I'm sure
Icon will be more than a refutation of civic art as trolling, but still.
I must have been exposed to Colin MacNeil's art in the womb, because every feathered area of shadow and rampant rabbit citi-block floods my brain with serotonin. I love the way he's decided Tim Burton stripes go with everything*, and Chris Blythe's understated colours and textures are the perfect complement to MacNeil's more graphic approach to inking.
I'm glad Sector 123's finally been redeveloped, but it's been 25 years since Jimmy The Brit, Garth Ennis, and Carlos Ezquerra demolished the Jackson Five blocks**. McGruder should never have given the reconstruction contract to Axl Rose, Malick & Partners.
* Linus looks like Danny DeVito's Penguin. Love the cameos too - in a fight between Captain Kirk and Elvis, my money's on the one wearing the tightest corset.
** The Taking Of Sector 123, Meg 2.11
Tom Eglington said on the Thought Bubble 2000 AD panel that Icon was planned before Charlottesville.
Guys, I still haven't had my 2000ad delivered yet. Have the subscription department changed their email address as I've sent them an email three days ago, but they haven't replied yet.
Best bet these days is to use the form here: https://shop.2000ad.com/contact-us
It's unusual to wait more than a couple of days for a response.
Quote from: Frank on 29 September, 2017, 09:07:38 PM
Quote from: norton canes on 29 September, 2017, 04:10:25 PM
The vulture-like news team are far too blatant a lift from Jake Gyllenhaal's 2014 film Nightcrawler
Wasn't the most jarring reference.
When extolling the virtues of comics as a medium, it's common to note that while a film's journey from page to screen may take years, comic creators struck by inspiration can share their thoughts with their audience in a matter of weeks.
Judge Dredd: Icon and Zenith suggest we might need to revisit that in light of the increased churn rate of social media. Statues and punching standing up to Nazis were all anyone was talking about in August, but that feels like a lifetime ago.
By the time Mike Carroll brings us Judge Dredd: Rocket Man or How Do You Survive A Hurricane Like Maria?, we'll have moved on to round two of Brexit and the US mid-terms. I'm sure Icon will be more than a refutation of civic art as trolling, but still.
I must have been exposed to Colin MacNeil's art in the womb, because every feathered area of shadow and rampant rabbit citi-block floods my brain with serotonin. I love the way he's decided Tim Burton stripes go with everything*, and Chris Blythe's understated colours and textures are the perfect complement to MacNeil's more graphic approach to inking.
I'm glad Sector 123's finally been redeveloped, but it's been 25 years since Jimmy The Brit, Garth Ennis, and Carlos Ezquerra demolished the Jackson Five blocks**. McGruder should never have given the reconstruction contract to Axl Rose, Malick & Partners.
* Linus looks like Danny DeVito's Penguin. Love the cameos too - in a fight between Captain Kirk and Elvis, my money's on the one wearing the tightest corset.
** The Taking Of Sector 123, Meg 2.11
Coincidentally, I had an idea for a Dredd story born out of a fever dream several years ago about a statue being erected in Dredd's honour, being hit by a hover-taxi, the head rolling down a skedway while mowing down cits, with the punchline being, "even an effigy of Dredd is lethal!"
Of course, I Was far too lazy to pitch it! :lol:
Death by chin.
I won't go into strip-by-strip detail as it's all been gone over plenty, but - as a lapsed reader - I thought it was a decent jumping-on prog, if lacking a bit of punch that I was expecting.
Favourite strip was Indigo Prime (my first exposure), least favourite Slaine (great art but I felt dumped into the middle of a story) and I was also very fond of the Rogue and Sin/Dex strips. Never read the original Zenith so I'm going to catch up before reading the article.
I'm going to buy the next prog so job done!
Don't really see the appeal of the Rogue Trooper story - it's nothing that hasn't been done better before (most recently by Rennie), it's basically a prologue for a story we'll never see, and while it had its moments I found the B&W art overworked and a bit... slavish. No problem whatsoever with Rebellion running this as a fluffer for their Rogue refresh/platform-jump, they do it rarely enough, but I'm not feeling the unbridled love.
Elsewhere the Dredd was an unexpected but welcome continuation of the Sons of Booth story (which badly needed it, being a great idea that went nowhere) - some unusually poor computer lettering embellishments though; similarly the lovely-looking Slaine was only let down by the return of That Font (no wonder the Cythrons rebelled against the Archons, some things cannot be borne), and repeated confusion of who actually caused the Deluge (wasn't it the Drunes and their weirdstones?).
Too soon to say much about the new Grey Area, but this is a strip that just gets better and better, so I have high hopes. By contrast, the familiar excitement of a new Indigo Prime story is undermined by real worries about the strip's future. This so good already, amazing to see Foundation again: please Tharg, don't stuff it up.
Sinister Dexter was basically perfect, and it's great that we've finally found a colourist who works with Yeowell's art, which hitherto has been on my list of Bad Ideas From The Start. Looking forward to more.
Loved the Zenith piece, really believable extrapolation, and funny to boot.
But as is so often the case it was Deadworld that stole the show, a terrific example of a strip that feels like it has places to go and things to do, and isn't messing about in getting there. My only reservations are that this would have worked better as a direct epilogue to the last run, and that maybe the arrival of Death could have been given a bit more space. But it was still great stuff.
John Smith (The real John Smith) back; great Rogue story; C McNeil on Dredd; Slaine a colorful episode; Zenith, great to see this iconic character back; Dave Kendall on fire. What's not to like about prog 2050?? Z
Quotethird longest serving script droid*
Point of Nerdformation, your Honour!
I'd suggest Smith is currently Tharg's
fifth longest-serving script-droid, after Messrs Mills, Wagner, Grant and Milligan (who I'm assuming we'll see again soonish on Bad Company and/or Counterfeit Girl)
-and, on the art front, John Higgins has been in Tharg's fil-o-fax since at least 1978.
Also Prog 2050 was good, if not great. Just to pick on one strip, Slaine looks beautfiul and will, I suspect, read very well in the collection, but it's as if Mills has given up trying to make Slaine a weekly episodic experience.
Quote from: Proudhuff on 26 September, 2017, 01:50:39 PM
The Zenith article is a fun little retrospective.Seconded, but I would have preferred a Citadel of Solitude or an Ozymandias style retreat, with a mad, bad and dangerous to know Zenith driven mad by his out there experiences.
How do you know Robert doesn't have a Doc Savage/Superman/Ozymandias-style Arctic retreat? If he did he wouldn't mention it in a magazine article!
Random question regarding Sinister / Dexter: what was up with the surprise that the old favourite sites have changed?
Isn't this all set in an 'alternate reality' Downlode now?
Quote from: Link Prime on 05 October, 2017, 11:32:45 PM
Random question regarding Sinister / Dexter: what was up with the surprise that the old favourite sites have changed?
Isn't this all set in an 'alternate reality' Downlode now?
Wasn't the point that they weren't where they used to be?
I thought it was just that they'd been away for a long time, and things had changed in their absence.
From what I recall, they were off-world for a while, then came back to an alternate reality Downlode (although they were aware of that fact).
I could be misremembering.
We should only accept Colin_YNWA's input from here on in.
Quote from: Richard on 05 October, 2017, 11:56:00 PM
I thought it was just that they'd been away for a long time, and things had changed in their absence.
Yep - nothing to do with alternate realities, and wholly about returning to a place you used to know well to find it's all been redeveloped (as it says explicitly in a few panels).
Only just caught the reference to the photographer in the Zenith interview. His name is Steve...
Theye are in a sort of alternate reality though - one where Sinister and Dexter never existed, or at least have been erased from history when they killed alt.Moses.
Quote from: TordelBack on 06 October, 2017, 06:06:34 AM
Theye are in a sort of alternate reality though - one where Sinister and Dexter never existed, or at least have been erased from history when they killed alt.Moses.
Well there you go muchachos- seems like I've literally lost the plot.
My reading of the broader story-line (in between the distracting flashy art and zingy puns) was that our death dealing duo were now stranded on an actual parallel Earth, albeit one where they were taken off the board at a very early stage.
Yours faithfully,
A. Fool
It's a bit confusing alright - in the final Generica-set story, 'The Taking of the Michael', two cops were investigating the aftermath of a massacre on Moses' yacht. They were able to track the lads' bloody progress through the boat right up the outside deck level, where an explosion caused by killing Moses appeared to have vapourised them, leaving gunshark-shaped shadows. This was explicitly in the original universe, since the whole plot was about the necessity of removing the Moses from the parallel universe to prevent destabilisation of this one. Quite what happened from the lads' perspective isn't clear: they clearly weren't disintegrated, although they were still on Generica. They returned to Downlode to discover they had apparently never existed (unlike in the Mover-Moses's universe, where they had existed but died young).
The question is whether they have simply been erased from their regular universe (most likely), or whether they are in a parallel (which presumably would have the same destabilising effect as the Mover was having).
The Prog 2000 (v. 2.0) story where they reacquire the Edsel suggested that Billi might actually have had some memory of them, implying that they are in their home universe, but there is more going on than meets the eye.
Quote from: TordelBack on 06 October, 2017, 06:06:34 AM
Theye are in a sort of alternate reality though - one where Sinister and Dexter never existed, or at least have been erased from history when they killed alt.Moses.
Yes... it's not entirely clear (unless I missed something, which is entirely possible) whether they've ended up in a parallel timeline, or re-set their own. It's an oddly fine distinction, I'll admit, but in the first, all the prior SinDex stories
still exist but in the second, it's blank slate time.
I suspect, for story external reasons, it's the latter, demonstrating Dabnett's recognition that the strip doesn't get enough 'air time' to support the more involved, longer term stories he'd previously been penning for the duo.
(Edit: ...and TB gets in with a similar thought while I was posting this...)
My understanding of it was Tordel's option a)- i.e they are back in their Downlode but one where they have been erased.
This week's story does question that a bit - it is possibly a slightly different Downlode.
But hey Butterfly effect and all that. We don't know how a lack of the boys would impact on the city ( or the world) so it is entirely conceivable that it is their Downlode but one that has been changed by them having been erased from the previous history.
The whole issue of Sinister Dexter continuity would be a damn site easier to follow if Tharg would get off his fat green arse and publish a series of trades- in order and missing nothing- like he does with just about everything else.
SBT
S'right.
Quote from: TordelBack on 06 October, 2017, 09:57:40 AM
The Prog 2000 (v. 2.0) story where they reacquire the Edsel suggested that Billi might actually have had some memory of them, implying that they are in their home universe, but there is more going on than meets the eye.
Yeah I think that panel of Billi clearly having a moment was telling. My current reading is that they are in an altered version of their original universe. The Dimensional Ninja chaps said the multi-verse was breaking up cos of all this inter-reality pollution. Finny and Ray get rid of all that over the course of a few stories and when they finish off with The Mover 'POP' reality fixed... BUT the stabilised reality has plasters over the wounds and some things have changed and one of those is folks not remembering the boys.
Boom jobs a good 'un no more folks fretting over the over ... complex continuity... in Sinister... er... Dext.... whoops!
Hm, most disappointing prog in a long while. Perhaps the hype/length exacerbates this. I don't get along with Smith's impenetrability or Deadworld's painted zombie chic, and best thing in the prog recently - Grey Area - was slight, setup more than anything. Rogue Trooper was old news, felt like a pitch for a series or - even worse - a video game. Hope 2051 kicks into gear.
Having a serious wobble...
Quote from: Fungus on 07 October, 2017, 03:09:56 AM
I don't get along with Smith's impenetrability
Prog 2050, A Dying Art part one, John Smith and Lee Carter
The psychic shock from last series' reality altering event (see below) has sent Indigo Prime's psi-sensitive agents into comas.
On a tropical beach, a team tasked with recovering such agents find what appears to be the unconscious form of Jerry Foundation, one of the earliest IP agents.
For reasons yet to be explained, the only psi-sensitive agents unaffected are Burroughs, Dak, and Crippen, who are charged with recovering the broken minds of their colleagues.Jerry Foundation first appeared in prog 490's A Change Of Scenery, where he introduced himself as Harry Foundation (and his partner as Jerry Basalt).
The reality altering shock that caused agents to fall into comas was The Christhulhu Event, when a former affiliate of the Atheist Terror League conspired with Indigo Prime Director Major Arcana to replace Jesus at the moment of crucifixion with a simulacrum, which transformed into Cthulhu, changing history so humanity worship the Lovecraft deity, rather than gentle Jesus.
Agent Unthur Dak was present at the Cthulhu Event, but says he doesn't remember the details of what happened, such as the involvement of Major Arkana. Figuring Unthur with Cthulhu's hand on his shoulder as he says this may indicate that he is under the control of those who engineered the event, or maybe just that the same actors who engineered the event (selectively) wiped his memory.
We're introduced to Burroughs in what seems like an imagined scene or dream state, where a shotgun is aimed at his head and he apologises to the dead wife of the real William Burroughs, who diedcat the hands of her spouse when a William Tell stunt involving a hand gun and grade A narcotics went predictably wrong.
The red stain on the climbing plant behind Burroughs as we transition to the garden could be understood as brain splatter or an allusion to Burroughs' shotgun paintings, where canvases were decorated using a mixture of paint tins and ballistic weaponry.
Why Burroughs appears unaffected by the shock wave that floored his colleagues remains unclear, but the reincorporated author previously suggested his experience of psychic trauma and weirdness allowed him to withstand the shock ("I wrote the book. Several of them")
Whether Burroughs, Dak and Crippen are immune to this shock because of interference by a third party, so they can serve their purposes, is something we will never know. Neither will we discover how the Nihilist - the shadowy figure seen 'haunting' the corridors of Indigo Prime's base on page 5 - fits into this, whether this is the real Jerry Foundation (and why his name changed), or what the Atheist Terror League planned to do with the map of Indigo Prime's operations they stole last series.
Only John Smith knows the answers to these questions, and he's no longer telling.
Blimey Frank! Tharg should have asked you to write the new series!
Quote from: Frank on 07 October, 2017, 11:24:23 AM
Whether Burroughs, Dak and Crippen are immune to this shock because of interference by a third party, so they can serve their purposes, is something we will never know. Neither will we discover how the Nihilist - the shadowy figure seen 'haunting' the corridors of Indigo Prime's base on page 5 - fits into this, whether this is the real Jerry Foundation (and why his name changed), or what the Atheist Terror League planned to do with the map of Indigo Prime's operations they stole last series.
Only John Smith knows the answers to these questions, and he's no longer telling.]
Why do you keep talking in these grand absolutes? Yes, we
will find out. As soon as it appears in the prog, that will be what/why/when. It may not be the what/why/when that John Smith had intended, granted, but it will immediately be the only what/why/when for the characters and series. Sad to say, but that's how work-for-hire works.
And do you
know, or are you only assuming, that John Smith has not at some point mentioned to Tharg or Kek-W some of the plans he had for the series...?
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 07 October, 2017, 11:56:50 AM
Quote from: Frank on 07 October, 2017, 11:24:23 AM
Only John Smith knows the answers to these questions, and he's no longer telling.
It may not be (what) John Smith had intended ...
I'd never promote the intentional fallacy (https://www.britannica.com/topic/intentional-fallacy), Jimbo.
I'm not mourning the loss of what Smith
had planned; I'm just bummed I'll never get to read whatever brilliant nonsense Smith
eventually came up with.*
* ... after four years of prevarication, and probably typed up a few hours before the script deadline expired.
I don't know John Smith any better than we know each other, but the little I can glean from interviews and comments on social media leads me to doubt he's like Alan Moore, and has rolls of butcher paper on top of the wardrobe with the next ten years of Indigo Prime and Devlin Waugh stories mapped out in spidery handwriting.
My real interest in John Smith's writing lies in the glossaries of improvised technical terms and gazetteers of single use place names. My enjoyment of the stories stems from the multi-car pileup of super-condensed ideas and hyphenated (German) proper nouns, of seeing the author's personality and interests spontaneously express themselves through the work, as he writes himself out of a corner.
I'm not much interested in Indigo Prime as a concept, or invested emotionally in the cast as characters.The reason I'm not much fussed about reading any other writer's take on this story (or the strip in general) is that my primary interest in Indigo Prime is as an expression of John Smith's imagination and idiosyncrasies.
I won't be trashing Nigel Long's work or berating Tharg on an ongoing basis, but I will have next to no interest in how the strip progresses. Except for Lee Carter's luscious, masterful, and constantly improving artwork, which might be reason enough in itself to continue the strip.
Finally, I would like to apologise to the concept of work for hire fiction. If I have caused any personal offence to this fine and honourable working practice (its loved ones, friends and family), I am deeply sorry..
Gotta agree with Frank on this: Kek-W is one of the droids whose work I most eagerly anticipate, rating The Order and Deadworld as two of my favourite 2000AD strips of all time. However, my equally strongly grá for Indigo Prime isn't because it has a cast of compelling characters whose adventures I long to share: I read it because I love John Smith's utterly distinctive writing, and always have (even when it makes feck all sense): and IP is the Smiffiest of all Smith strips.
In The Order, Nigel already has a strip that can do pretty much everything in story terms that the Indigo Prime concept can, eclectic weirdoes from time and space protecting a contested and maleable reality. I'd rather see a Smith-less IP retired and Kek-W put his very considerable talent into other projects. This isn't a general statement on creator-penned strips, this is a specific observation on my enjoyment of Smith's unique voice.
I agree with Frank and Tordelback here. After this current series, I don't need to see Indigo Prome again without John Smith. However, the last series of Indigo Prime ended on a cliffhanger, and it would have been annoying to just leave it there. I prefer the approach that Tharg has taken, so that we see a resolution to that storyline -- which is a brilliant one -- even if it's written by someone else.
And while this technically isn't the right thread to say so, I think Kek-W has done a sterling job of impersonating John Smith in episode 3.
I'll be the odd one out then.
I'd prefer that Smith be Indigo Prime's writer, but I'd also prefer that Indigo Prime have the permanent second slot next to Dredd, with fifty episodes a year. I have lots of impractical preferences.
I love the way that Smith crafted IP's return, with almost all the characters we knew from the 1990s either ignored or moved to the background. So I was very pleased to see Harry/Jerry Foundation come back.
I hate the bad feeling that I have about this. It feels badly like when Ian Gibson gave up on Robo-Hunter, so Tharg called Anthony Williams to draw the last fifteen pages.
I want to ignore that feeling. I want Indigo Prime back, for good, regularly. It may be selfish of me, but I don't really care any longer. As I mentioned here once before, my life's not a really happy one these days, and I take my pleasure where I can because I have very little of it.
If "A Dying Art" is 12 pages of Smith and 48 of Kek-W, *I'll take it* because I adore Indigo Prime. I did become emotionally invested in the concept, somehow, which doesn't make a lot of sense considering how emotionally cold and distant this concept is. I think it's one of the most wonderful concepts in comics, and I hope Kek-W gets to carry it on for years and years to come.
I hope he introduces all sorts of new characters and worlds, and reintroduces classic characters like Almaranda, Fervent, and Lobe when the time's right. I hope he writes a whole pile of one-shots and two-parters to develop his concepts like I contend we should have seen over the last six years, dropped in like Future Shocks or in the year-end progs.
I hope John Smith is well, retired on some beach somewhere, healthy and wealthy and wonderful.
But I don't know John Smith, and the weird magic of his creation has seen me through some really tough times. I love Indigo Prime, irrationally, and hope it continues forever. Knock us dead, Kek-W.
As usual Goggans puts us all to shame. I hope you get your wish(es), sir.
Yup. Adore it. Sure I would prefer John Smith to be writing it - no question - but I'd rather have Indigo Prime written by somebody else than no more Indigo Prime ever, I'm afraid.
I'd rather the strip end than see its creator treated poorly. I don't know that Smith is being dealt an injustice, but the number of scenarios where that's not the case is quite small.*
Even if Smith is at fault, ending the strip seems like the classy course of action.
* When I try to think of the most positive scenario possible, it's that Carter only had a small window in an otherwise tight schedule to work on the strip, and Smith couldn't submit the script in time. Were that the case, it's difficult to see why Tharg wouldn't gather everyone in the Thrillcast booth to explain they're all still pals and Smith will be back on duty after this Very Special Episode. And it wouldn't explain McConville's Devlin Waugh.
Difficult to believe Matt Smith would treat his own brother this way.
The best possible outcome, of course, is that John Smith is very busy with other projects / work / retirement in Tahiti / advising Mycroft Holmes / spending the fortunes of a long-lost rich relative, and has no time for comics.
Or no interest. Nobody ever said that a script droid would be obliged to work in this business indefinitely churning out scripts for our entertainment.
Without a statement, it's easy to assume a creative type having a Gibson/McKenzie/G. Morrison disagreement with editorial (because it's happened so often), but it's not necessary. Until we hear otherwise, I choose to believe that Smith has passed the baton and is busy doing something else.
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 08 October, 2017, 01:52:08 AM
Without a statement, it's easy to assume a creative type having a Gibson/McKenzie/G. Morrison disagreement with editorial (because it's happened so often), but it's not necessary. Until we hear otherwise, I choose to believe that Smith has passed the baton
Smith said he gave Long his blessing at the 40th anniversary party*. As you say, it's odd not to have heard the official line on such a significant move.
The background to this -
as much as we know, anyway - is that Smith posted on social media in February, saying he was writing the third episode of
A Dying Art**, after a two year hiatus.
Smith said Carter had already completed the two episodes we've just read. Carter getting paid for the
incredible work he's done, and not losing him as artist, are the only compelling reasons I can see for the decisions taken.
And they don't explain the simultaneous appearance of Rory McConville's
Devlin Waugh. ***
* He also said he was looking forward to experiencing the strip as a reader, but - understandably - also hopes it turns out awful without him. He's also said he hopes not to go 'all Alan Moore' about it.
** Smith described the Psychosphere episodes he had in mind as a haunted house story set in the seventies, the house in question being London's Dolphin Square.
*** Smith said he was also keen to write more Waugh, celebrating the strip's 25th anniversary by killing the character off.
Quote from: Frank on 07 October, 2017, 11:24:23 AM
The psychic shock from last series' reality altering event (see below) has sent Indigo Prime's psi-sensitive agents into comas.
I would do, but the writing's too small and I can't be bothered to copy and paste it into a text editor to read. Was it a recap of the ChristCthulhu story?
Quote from: Frank on 08 October, 2017, 10:32:36 AM
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 08 October, 2017, 01:52:08 AM
Without a statement, it's easy to assume a creative type having a Gibson/McKenzie/G. Morrison disagreement with editorial (because it's happened so often), but it's not necessary. Until we hear otherwise, I choose to believe that Smith has passed the baton
Smith said he gave Long his blessing at the 40th anniversary party*. As you say, it's odd not to have heard the official line on such a significant move.
The background to this - as much as we know, anyway - is that Smith posted on social media in February, saying he was writing the third episode of A Dying Art**, after a two year hiatus.
Smith said Carter had already completed the two episodes we've just read. Carter getting paid for the incredible work he's done, and not losing him as artist, are the only compelling reasons I can see for the decisions taken.
And they don't explain the simultaneous appearance of Rory McConville's Devlin Waugh. ***
* He also said he was looking forward to experiencing the strip as a reader, but - understandably - also hopes it turns out awful without him. He's also said he hopes not to go 'all Alan Moore' about it.
** Smith described the Psychosphere episodes he had in mind as a haunted house story set in the seventies, the house in question being London's Dolphin Square.
*** Smith said he was also keen to write more Waugh, celebrating the strip's 25th anniversary by killing the character off.
As much as I share your enthusiasm for Smith and Indigo Prime, I think two episodes of a story being written, drawn, paid for and still unable to be run after two years leaves the editor in a very sticky situation.
I don't really want to get myself too far into the murky waters of Internet speculation and tale-telling but if you're using John's Facebook page as a source you should be able to find the post where Peter Doherty bluntly says they were asked for more Devlin but John didn't write anything.
The preceding assigns no value judgements to the actions of inactions described or imagined.
Quote from: I, Cosh on 08 October, 2017, 12:55:52 PM
Quote from: Frank on 08 October, 2017, 10:32:36 AM
Smith said Carter had already completed the two episodes we've just read. Carter getting paid for the incredible work he's done, and not losing him as artist, are the only compelling reasons I can see for the decisions taken.
As much as I share your enthusiasm for Smith and Indigo Prime, I think two episodes of a story being written, drawn, paid for and still unable to be run after two years leaves the editor in a very sticky situation.
True. I suppose this is the inverse of that Joe Pineapples solo series Simon Bisley's always about to start work on next Tuesday, whenever he's asked.*
* If there's one thing we can be sure of, it's that Pat Mills has been paid in full for the scripts he delivered on that one.
Cosh has got it about right, yeah. There's lots behind it, and I could pour out my sob story about my boyfriend dying and life going to shit (by actually having to actually learn what real life is), but I'll save it for a Bitter And Evil Podcast somewhere, eh?
Oh yeah. And they should let anyone and everyone have a go at doing "Indigo Prime" stories. It's kinda why I brought 'em back! Same with Devlin. You could riff off these characters into any story. I'm just rather annoyed they're so lame as to use all the obvious trappings that I've laid out for years! Tying up 25 years of cryptic hints in a few episodes is, well, what...? "Fuck you, Smith! These characters... "Your my wives now..."
Well, thanks to page after page of incessant speculating and scavenging of scraps from social media, you've managed to make a man post about his bereavement on a public forum.
Well done, Frank. You must be terribly pleased with yourself.
Sorry to read about your loss, john_s.
Also sorry that you felt you had to post about it here.*
*Not having a pop at anyone - I've been following this thread for info too.
Maybe time to remember that creator's private lives are just that - private.
John, my deepest condolences on your loss, and every sympathy for all that follows from it.
Thanks a million for taking the time to clarify things re: your series, it is very much appreciated. For what little it matters, the level of chatter here surrounding IP and Devlin should be some indication of the immense value we place on your work, and on your very unique voice. More than anything I hope things improve for you.
Mr Smith ... what Tordels said sir.
My condolences to you John and I sincerely regret it if my own drivel has led you to feel you have to drag this up in public.
Quote from: john_s on 09 October, 2017, 06:19:06 AM
... they should let anyone and everyone have a go at doing "Indigo Prime" stories. It's kinda why I brought 'em back! Same with Devlin. You could riff off these characters into any story.
Thank you for the reply, John, and condolences for your loss.
Quote from: I, Cosh on 09 October, 2017, 08:55:14 AM
My condolences to you John and I sincerely regret it if my own drivel has led you to feel you have to drag this up in public.
I don't think you're the one who needs to apologise for anything here.
Feel free to explain yourself, Gordon. Use quotes.
Or - now that we know the truth - maybe we should all just let it go?
I wasn't asking why John hadn't delivered a script, but I agree we should drop the topic.