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2000 AD => General => Topic started by: Sandman1 on 06 September, 2017, 05:38:31 pm

Title: Texas City
Post by: Sandman1 on 06 September, 2017, 05:38:31 pm
I'm looking for an overall, thorough conception of Texas City and its judicial officials. Can you suggest some excellent examples? I prefer stories/comics in color.
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Greg M. on 06 September, 2017, 06:09:37 pm
Though the place is often referred to, I'm not sure there are that many definitive Texas City stories. It's normally depicted as, at best, a self-interested and independent city-state, and at worst, flat-out obstructive to MC-1 efforts. You'll probably want to read its first (?) appearance in 'The Judge Child' Eps 5&6 (Case Files 4) as well as 'Texas City Sting' (CF17). Though most 'Missionary Man' stories don't take place in Texas City itself, Preacher Cain is an ex-judge of that parish, so that series is probably a good source of info.
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: TordelBack on 06 September, 2017, 06:12:41 pm
The back half of the Every Empire Falls collection probably contains more detail on Texas City Justice Dept than any other story. The story with the first Paradox Vega appearance (forgot the name!) was also set there, and features two Texas City judges extensively.
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Frank on 06 September, 2017, 06:32:40 pm
The back half of the Every Empire Falls collection probably contains more detail on Texas City Justice Dept than any other story. The story with the first Paradox Vega appearance (forgot the name!) was also set there, and features two Texas City judges extensively.

Deep In The Heart (2016-2019), although it's neither overall nor thorough. Sorry, Sandman - the story/stories you're looking for do not exist.

John Wagner isn't the kind of writer to fill in detail unless he needs to, and the longest he's spent in TC was the Megazine story Texas City Sting (2.01-2.03), and all we really learn there is that TCJD conform to stereotypes of Southern law enforcement officials common in cinema of the sixties and seventies.

Judge Anderson takes a trip to TC in IDW's Anderson series, where she teams up with a TC psi judge. I wouldn't say we learn any more in that story than in those cited above, though. Sorry.


Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Proudhuff on 06 September, 2017, 06:38:58 pm
Just read the US Presidential tweets that should give you a rough idea of the TC way of thinking. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Sandman1 on 06 September, 2017, 11:51:24 pm
The back half of the Every Empire Falls collection probably contains more detail on Texas City Justice Dept than any other story.

You'll probably want to read its first (?) appearance in 'The Judge Child' Eps 5&6 (Case Files 4) as well as 'Texas City Sting' (CF17). Though most 'Missionary Man' stories don't take place in Texas City itself, Preacher Cain is an ex-judge of that parish, so that series is probably a good source of info.

Will look up and sift through all these examples.

Deep In The Heart (2016-2019), although it's neither overall nor thorough. Sorry, Sandman - the story/stories you're looking for do not exist.

It's a real pity, but then there is at least some room to fill. 
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: TordelBack on 07 September, 2017, 05:39:33 am
It's a real pity...

Is it, though? Assuming your interest stems from one of your writing projects, you have a huge amount of freedom to work with, but enough differences from MC-1 to suggest a flavour.
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: glassstanley on 07 September, 2017, 11:42:57 am
I think it was first mentioned in the first Luna-1 story, in which it was a signitory to the Luna-1 treaty under the name of Mega-City Three. The retcon to the name only appeared in an annual text feature I *think* and so has never made it into the actual strip.
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: sheridan on 07 September, 2017, 01:12:56 pm
I think it was first mentioned in the first Luna-1 story, in which it was a signitory to the Luna-1 treaty under the name of Mega-City Three. The retcon to the name only appeared in an annual text feature I *think* and so has never made it into the actual strip.


Sure I've read (possibly in an annual feature) that it was planned to be called Mega-City Three, but there was resistance.  There's also that McMahon gatefold cover, 'a scene from the civil war' (paraphrasing the title slightly).
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: sheridan on 07 September, 2017, 01:17:20 pm
I think it was first mentioned in the first Luna-1 story, in which it was a signitory to the Luna-1 treaty under the name of Mega-City Three. The retcon to the name only appeared in an annual text feature I *think* and so has never made it into the actual strip.


Sure I've read (possibly in an annual feature) that it was planned to be called Mega-City Three, but there was resistance.  There's also that McMahon gatefold cover, 'a scene from the civil war' (paraphrasing the title slightly).

...or I could look it up on Barney, which only took a minute or two:


Prog 169 (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=covers&page=artist&choice=mikem&Comic=2000ad)

(http://www.2000ad.org/covers/2000ad/hires/169.jpg)


A scene from the civil war in post-atomic America.


(http://www.2000ad.org/covers/scans/hires/169.jpg)


I had the impression the war was between TC and MC1, but there's nothing conclusive in that picture.
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Dandontdare on 07 September, 2017, 01:28:35 pm
A reader wrote a letter in prog 198* asking where mega city 3 was as an artist had included the name on the side of a mo-pad, but was confused as the map in the 81 Dredd annual only showed MC1 & 2 plus TC. Tharg's answer was :

"Texas City is commonly regarded  as Mega City 3. It just lacks official status as a mega-city. Certain population and area quotas have to be reached before such status is given"

This idea that some organisation decides if it's big enough was never mentioned again however. I think someone mentions in a later strip that it was just Texan pride and stubbornness that they kept the name rather than being #3


* Impressed? Well no, I've not had memory-implants - this prog is due to come up in Mondays Space-spinner 2000 ep and I'm reading along!
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Sandman1 on 07 September, 2017, 04:24:14 pm
Is it, though? Assuming your interest stems from one of your writing projects, you have a huge amount of freedom to work with, but enough differences from MC-1 to suggest a flavour.

Maybe, maybe not. I'll need to read through the source material before I make up my mind. I revere the source material, so I don't want to veer off the course too much.
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Frank on 07 September, 2017, 06:11:02 pm
I think it was first mentioned in the first Luna-1 story, in which it was a signitory to the Luna-1 treaty under the name of Mega-City Three. The retcon to the name only appeared in an annual text feature I *think* and so has never made it into the actual strip.

The 1984 Judge Dredd Annual contained a reader's attempt* to create a timeline of Megacity history -
clearly branded UNOFFICIAL VERSION - interpolating facts mentioned in the strip and events of their own invention.

Events mentioned in the strip are printed in bold text; reader Talbot's inventions are reproduced in italic script. The heading Civil war breaks out between Megacities One and Three is written in bold**, but Megacity Three wishes to obtain independence (and) adopts the official name Texas City is reader Talbot's fan fiction.


* "John Talbot of Littlehampton, Sussex"

** Although I really don't know where that information comes from. It can't just be based on that McMahon cover Sheridan reproduced above, can it?
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Robin Low on 08 September, 2017, 08:02:03 am
** Although I really don't know where that information comes from. It can't just be based on that McMahon cover Sheridan reproduced above, can it?[/i]

Well, we have Tharg's response (which is pretty official even if it's not in an actual story) that Dandontdare quotes, plus the civil war poster. In that picture there is a Judge carrying a judgyfied version of the third national flag of the Confederate States of America - I can't see anyone apart from TC flying a flag like that. It's reasonable to say that Texas City is MC3 and the Civil War (technically Mega Civil War, because everything's Mega) was between Texas City and MC1 and possibly MC2.

Regards,

Robin
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Frank on 08 September, 2017, 11:04:13 am
It's reasonable to say that Texas City is MC3 and the Civil War (technically Mega Civil War, because everything's Mega) was between Texas City and MC1 and possibly MC2.

Origins makes no mention of any civil war. I'm pretty sure war between the US megacities has stopped having happened.


Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Greg M. on 08 September, 2017, 11:46:57 am
Origins makes no mention of any civil war. I'm pretty sure war between the US megacities has stopped having happened.

Apparently (and I can't say I remember this) Garth Ennis makes brief mention of it in 'Monkey On My Back'.
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Frank on 08 September, 2017, 12:47:20 pm
Origins makes no mention of any civil war. I'm pretty sure war between the US megacities has stopped having happened.

Apparently (and I can't say I remember this) Garth Ennis makes brief mention of it in 'Monkey On My Back'.

I can't respond to that without insulting - insulting, I say - all the talented and principled creators who write the other episodes that are every bit as good (and just as important) as all the rest of the strips.


Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 08 September, 2017, 01:03:05 pm
Say what you like about Garth, but Monkey on my Back is great. One of my favourite-ever Dredd stories, to be honest.
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Steve Green on 08 September, 2017, 01:28:35 pm
Yeah, I wish he'd done a few more after that.
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Sandman1 on 08 September, 2017, 02:24:57 pm
Do the judges in Texas City usually wear cowboy hats or the standard helmet with a lone star?
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Leigh S on 08 September, 2017, 03:50:30 pm
Being swept under by Mills overdose last month or so, but doesn't he state that he had a plan for a Cursed Earth followup Dredd epic about that Civil War that didnt come to pass - maybe the cover was connected in some way?  Can;t remember if this was in his book or one of the many interviews he has given recently.

Monkey On My Back falls apart with the west wall existing pre Cal doesnt it?  Remember thinking it was one of his weaker efforts (I'm half and half on Ennis stuff) but for continuity answers, probably not the first go to!
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Frank on 08 September, 2017, 04:10:23 pm
... but for continuity answers, probably not the first go to!

Yeah, that's all I meant. It's an okay story, and if Ennis ever wants to follow Milligan back to Tharg's command module I wouldn't grumble.

Thanks to Wagner's unprecedented - completely unprecedented, I say - tenure on the strip, it's fairly easy to work out what counts and what needs a pinch of salt. Must be murder reading Batman or The X-Men.


Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Robin Low on 08 September, 2017, 04:16:12 pm
It's reasonable to say that Texas City is MC3 and the Civil War (technically Mega Civil War, because everything's Mega) was between Texas City and MC1 and possibly MC2.

Origins makes no mention of any civil war.

It doesn't, but it only takes the story so far. Origins is concerned with Fargo and Booth, and that story is finished before the civil war ('post-atomic America') takes place.

Quote
I'm pretty sure war between the US megacities has stopped having happened.

That's your choice and you're entitled to it. Some of us choose otherwise.

Maybe one day someone will pitch a story to Tharg concerning the civil war, perhaps for the Megazine. Given that we have MC1 running TC at the moment, it might not be that bad an idea to delve into the history. Hell, we get stories about Judges in space that (regardless how good) have even less connection to the actual Judge Dredd series, so why not something that would actually fit.

Regards,

Robin
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: JOE SOAP on 08 September, 2017, 04:22:34 pm
Origins makes no mention of any civil war. I'm pretty sure war between the US megacities has stopped having happened.

Wouldn't really be an Origins thing: doubling up the conflict quota for a Cursed Earth skirmish that's tangential to Fargo's story and Dredd's a big lad by the time it happens -going by Mick McMahon's Civil War cyclorama inspired cover- so it could still be a pre-2099/Prog 2 event. Plenty of room there to fit it in.
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Robin Low on 08 September, 2017, 04:24:16 pm
Must be murder reading Batman or The X-Men.

Indeed, which is why I read Batman between 1989 and 1996 and then stopped.

I may stop with Dredd in the not too distant future. There are some good writers who get Dredd's voice right, but it sometimes feels like its pulling in different directions, none of them really getting to grips with the post-Chaos Day setting.

Regards,

Robin
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Dandontdare on 08 September, 2017, 04:26:49 pm
It doesn't, but it only takes the story so far. Origins is concerned with Fargo and Booth, and that story is finished before the civil war ('post-atomic America') takes place.

Yup, I agree with Robin (about the war, not about dropping Dredd!) - It's perfectly feasible that after the war when Dredd & Rico went back to finish their last 5 years of training,or in the 20 years after that, TC and MC had a disagreement about the future of America. Now that I think of it, that's a story I'd really like to read!

I always thought that the wraparound cover was supposed to depict the war between the judges and Booth's forces in Death Valley.
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Frank on 08 September, 2017, 07:05:46 pm
I'm pretty sure war between the US megacities has stopped having happened.

That's your choice and you're entitled to it.

I don't mean I don't like the idea or that it can't have happened.

I'm saying the last four decades of stories offer no evidence* that a caption some sub-editor stuck on one cover 37 years ago is anything more than a caption some sub-editor stuck on one cover 37 years ago.

I mentioned Origins because it was intended to address exactly this kind of thing.**


* A passing reference to 'the civil war in Texas' (Meg 204) from a writer whose conception of Dredd history ends around 1982 notwithstanding (PS, cheers, Greg)

**  By which I mean, to take Dredd's hugger mugger of dates and events, cobbled together over many years by many hands, and fix the important bits in a consistent narrative. After the nukes fly, events are figured as a dick measuring contest between Goodman and Booth, and the TC Chief doesn't respond to Bulgarin's request not to come to the Big Meg's aid by saying 'shit no, why would I help the motherfuckers we just fought in a civil war?'
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Sandman1 on 10 September, 2017, 11:02:05 pm
Considering the previous posts, this fierce dissent between Texas City and MC-1 seems to constitute some untapped, fertile ground. Is this conflict really not featured in any substantial way in a published story?
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Frank on 10 September, 2017, 11:53:25 pm
Is this conflict really not featured in any substantial way in a published story?

Every Empire Falls was about a megalomaniac Texan Chief Judge who wanted to reunite Texas and MC1, which would be an odd ambition for a state that had fought a (successful) war to achieve the exact opposite.

She ranted a bit about MC1's arrogance, but didn't mention them killing her Pa' in no civil war.*


* Good luck finding an argument between a German and a Brit that doesn't descend into insults concerning WWII - a conflict further in the past than any civil war would be in the MC1 timeline.
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: JOE SOAP on 11 September, 2017, 12:19:23 am
Every Empire Falls was about a megalomaniac Texan Chief Judge who wanted to reunite Texas and MC1, which would be an odd ambition for a state that had fought a (successful) war to achieve the exact opposite.

Chief Judge Oswin's real plan was one of conquest over a newly weakened state rather than a reunification in ideological terms for old times' sake.

Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Frank on 11 September, 2017, 12:39:56 am
Every Empire Falls was about a megalomaniac Texan Chief Judge who wanted to reunite Texas and MC1, which would be an odd ambition for a state that had fought a (successful) war to achieve the exact opposite.

Chief Judge Oswin's real plan was one of conquest over a newly weakened state rather than a reunification in ideological terms for old times' sake.

Knox says most of the TC judges didn't know what Oswin had planned. They - and presumably Oswin's equivalent of the council of five - went along with the mutual aid pact despite the civil war?

Like I say, there's no reason a civil war couldn't have happened ...


Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: 13school on 11 September, 2017, 10:57:04 am

I always thought that the wraparound cover was supposed to depict the war between the judges and Booth's forces in Death Valley.

Yeah, I always thought The Cursed Earth made it clear that there was first the Atom War between the USA and everyone else under Booth, then after the Judges rose up there was a civil war between the Judges and the USA forces still loyal to Booth. An open conflict between the government and forces looking to overthrow the government is about as civil war-ish as it gets.
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Robin Low on 11 September, 2017, 08:12:34 pm
Every Empire Falls was about a megalomaniac Texan Chief Judge who wanted to reunite Texas and MC1, which would be an odd ambition for a state that had fought a (successful) war to achieve the exact opposite.

Chief Judge Oswin's real plan was one of conquest over a newly weakened state rather than a reunification in ideological terms for old times' sake.

Knox says most of the TC judges didn't know what Oswin had planned. They - and presumably Oswin's equivalent of the council of five - went along with the mutual aid pact despite the civil war?

It's worth remembering too that the civil war that's imagined here would have happened over 40 earlier, perhaps over 50 years earlier. That's a lot of water under the bridge. It's also likely that it was both short lived and resolved, eventually, diplomatically. After all, by 2099 the three cities are sharing control over Luna 1 on a six-monthly rotation.

Regards,

Robin
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: JOE SOAP on 11 September, 2017, 08:34:53 pm
It's outcome would also depend on what it was fought over: independence seems a bit after-the-fact since it could be argued national fragmentation had all ready happened in 2070, and Mega City Two seemed to secede and go autonomous without a schmozzle, so it could be a conflict over share of resources, jurisdiction boundaries or the production of hats.
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: sheridan on 11 September, 2017, 08:39:48 pm
Every Empire Falls was about a megalomaniac Texan Chief Judge who wanted to reunite Texas and MC1, which would be an odd ambition for a state that had fought a (successful) war to achieve the exact opposite.

Chief Judge Oswin's real plan was one of conquest over a newly weakened state rather than a reunification in ideological terms for old times' sake.

Knox says most of the TC judges didn't know what Oswin had planned. They - and presumably Oswin's equivalent of the council of five - went along with the mutual aid pact despite the civil war?

Like I say, there's no reason a civil war couldn't have happened ...

After the earthquakes a decade or two ago Greece and Turkey managed to put aside their differences and started sending aid to each other - and that was after thousands of years of conflicts!
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: sheridan on 11 September, 2017, 08:40:38 pm
It's outcome would also depend on what it was fought over: independence seems a bit after-the-fact since it could be argued national fragmentation had all ready happened in 2070, and Mega City Two seemed to secede and go autonomous without a schmozzle, so it could be a conflict over share of resources, jurisdiction boundaries or the production of hats.

There are a lot of farms in the Cursed Earth between the two cities...
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Dandontdare on 11 September, 2017, 11:12:40 pm
I'm still a little vague how MC1 Justice Dept was in a position to choose the next TC chief judge given that the whole plot was made possible by MC1's relative weakness
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: The Adventurer on 12 September, 2017, 02:29:36 am
I'm still a little vague how MC1 Justice Dept was in a position to choose the next TC chief judge given that the whole plot was made possible by MC1's relative weakness

Telepathy.
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: malkymac on 12 September, 2017, 02:14:47 pm
I think it was first mentioned in the first Luna-1 story, in which it was a signitory to the Luna-1 treaty under the name of Mega-City Three. The retcon to the name only appeared in an annual text feature I *think* and so has never made it into the actual strip.


Sure I've read (possibly in an annual feature) that it was planned to be called Mega-City Three, but there was resistance.  There's also that McMahon gatefold cover, 'a scene from the civil war' (paraphrasing the title slightly).

...or I could look it up on Barney, which only took a minute or two:


Prog 169 (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=covers&page=artist&choice=mikem&Comic=2000ad)

(http://www.2000ad.org/covers/2000ad/hires/169.jpg)


A scene from the civil war in post-atomic America.


(http://www.2000ad.org/covers/scans/hires/169.jpg)


I had the impression the war was between TC and MC1, but there's nothing conclusive in that picture.

Well Dredd in blue Uniform is shooting at Judges in grey uniform carrying a flag which has a very similar design to the confederate battle flag. I think you can infer quite a lot from that.
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: malkymac on 12 September, 2017, 02:22:39 pm
It's outcome would also depend on what it was fought over: independence seems a bit after-the-fact since it could be argued national fragmentation had all ready happened in 2070, and Mega City Two seemed to secede and go autonomous without a schmozzle, so it could be a conflict over share of resources, jurisdiction boundaries or the production of hats.

Texas city might be using mutants as slave labour and MC1 uses this as an excuse to go to war and take some of their resources off them.
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Frank on 12 September, 2017, 02:56:14 pm
... by 2099 the three cities are sharing control over Luna 1 on a six-monthly rotation.

Mega City Two seemed to secede and go autonomous without a schmozzle

See, I would say those are two reasons to suppose that one caption on an old cover is just guff. I like the idea it might have been about hats, though.


Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: rogue69 on 12 September, 2017, 10:57:05 pm
Leigh S, Pat did say in Be Pure & has said before that the cover was drawn as an idea for a story for a civil war between different factions of Judges but they did not write the story I think he said that John Wagner was due to write this but he was busy on another series or something so it got shelved
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Proudhuff on 13 September, 2017, 11:35:04 am
The UN-Civil war (as it is called in Pat Mills' yet to be released 'How I created everythin!' was definitely about hats, Also I saw a cap-tion about it 30 years ago by some sub-Ed from the Bunty, so it must be true.
Title: Re: Texas City
Post by: Sandman1 on 14 September, 2017, 12:25:12 pm
The whole strife between the two megacities isn't so explicated, a bit too ambiguous. If you want a somewhat perspicuous depiction of Texas City, the best sources seems to be Every Empire Falls, The Judge Child Quest and probably TC Sting.