Game of Thrones Season 7: It's A Bit Nippy Out (SPOILERS)

[Theblazeuk]

Not to derail the GoT stuff but I loved Abercrombie's books, though I reckon the three standalone 'World of the First Law' novels are better than the trilogy proper. I'd love to see his Shattered Sea series on TV first though.

Anywho - back to Westeros. Ok episode, feels weird to see all this stuff happening on screen long before the books after all that waiting.

[radiator]

I couldn't really get into Abercrombie's First Law trilogy. Think I got about halfway through Before They are Hanged before giving up.

Tbh, the only thing I liked about the books was Inquisitor Glokta, who's a really interesting and memorable character - I found all the other chapters - especially the ones about the fencing guy - fairly tedious.

[Leigh S]

So did no sod think to send some troops to claim Dragonstone after Stannis left - Cersei had the power to send Jaimie to poxy Riverrun to help the poxy Freys... the Iron Born could sail all the way to Essos...

It is perilously close to Kings Landing, not stuck in some backwater....

[Dudley]

I was confused to see The Twins turn up in the credits, given Arya's opening action, but then I realised hapless ol' Edmure is going to have a very interesting season...

[radiator]

So did no sod think to send some troops to claim Dragonstone after Stannis left - Cersei had the power to send Jaimie to poxy Riverrun to help the poxy Freys... the Iron Born could sail all the way to Essos...

It is perilously close to Kings Landing, not stuck in some backwater....

Yeah, this crossed my mind too. It doesn't make any sense that such a strategically valuable fortress would simply be left empty.

But tbh, as the show hurtles towards the end, and major plotlines diverge wildly from the careful plotting of the books, logic and plausibility have somewhat gone out the window since around season 5...

Why would Stannis sacrifice his only living heir if his goal is to be king?

Why would the Boltons - an upjumped minor house with a tenuous claim on the North - immediately turn on the Lannisters with little to gain from doing so, and when they have only just forged an alliance?

What the hell is Littlefinger even up to in the North, and why did he think marrying Sansa to the Boltons would be a good idea? Isn't he supposed to be the mastermind behind basically everything that has transpired so far? What is his endgame here exactly? Chaos for the sake of chaos?

Why doesn't Jaime seem to be particularly bothered about the atrocity Cersei just committed?

How could Euron build 1000 ships in the space of a few months, on an island that has few trees or natural resources?

Why didn't the Lannisters immediately retaliate against the Martells for killing Myrcella?

If Alliser Thorne and his cronies' grievance with Jon was that he allowed the Wildlings through the Wall, wouldn't it have been a better idea to assassinate him before he did that rather than after?

What possible reason (other than a contrived way of upping the drama) would Sansa have for not telling Jon about the Knights of the Vale before the Battle of of Winterfell?

Why did the Faceless Men have an inexplicable change of heart about Arya, and let her go after she killed the Waif?

Why does everyone seem to know exactly what everyone else is up to at the moment? For that matter, why does everyone assume Tommen committed suicide and was not murdered, when no one was there to see it happen?

...best just go with the flow and enjoy the ride.

[Dudley]

Why would Stannis sacrifice his only living heir if his goal is to be king?

Because he was persuaded by Melisandre that destiny and the Red God required him to be king, the better to see off the coming darkness.  His goal was never to establish a dynasty.

Why would the Boltons - an upjumped minor house with a tenuous claim on the North - immediately turn on the Lannisters with little to gain from doing so, and when they have only just forged an alliance?
What the hell is Littlefinger even up to in the North, and why did he think marrying Sansa to the Boltons would be a good idea? Isn't he supposed to be the mastermind behind basically everything that has transpired so far? What is his endgame here exactly? Chaos for the sake of chaos?

All explained in this scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dcs4lnXebY
Roose was persuaded by Baelish that the Iron Throne was weak (which made sense at that point, with Tommen just crowned), that Cersei had lost power to Margaery (who favoured Sansa and would bless the match), and that consolidating his power in the North was most important.  Marrying Ramsay to Sansa legitimised his rule as King in the North, which is the largest and most powerful of the Seven Kingdoms (so not a jumped-up little house any more).  Baelish, meanwhile, explained his strategy quite clearly to Cersei at some point: pit opposing forces against each other and move in to mop up the remains.  Here he wanted to put Stannis against Boltons, then use Lannister forces to move in and become King in the North.  This is consistent with his modus operandi since season one.

Why doesn't Jaime seem to be particularly bothered about the atrocity Cersei just committed?

Give it time.  He's been hopelessly in love with Cersei since he was a kid, he can't just turn on her immediately.

How could Euron build 1000 ships in the space of a few months, on an island that has few trees or natural resources?

Yeah.  Poor scripting there.  They could easily have had him return with a big fleet and just add a few more ship to it.  No way round this one.

Why didn't the Lannisters immediately retaliate against the Martells for killing Myrcella?

What with High Sparrow etc, they had a few other things on.

If Alliser Thorne and his cronies' grievance with Jon was that he allowed the Wildlings through the Wall, wouldn't it have been a better idea to assassinate him before he did that rather than after?

Alliser Thorne spent his entire life defending the rules.  It takes a lot of time and conspiring to overcome that.

What possible reason (other than a contrived way of upping the drama) would Sansa have for not telling Jon about the Knights of the Vale before the Battle of of Winterfell?

She didn't trust Baelish to actually bring them until they arrived.

Why did the Faceless Men have an inexplicable change of heart about Arya, and let her go after she killed the Waif?

I think Jaqen had a serious soft spot for her: it was the Waif who insisted she be allowed to kill Arya.  In that last scene, Arya had a sword to his heart, which also may have helped his decision.

Why does everyone seem to know exactly what everyone else is up to at the moment?

Ravens got faster, and there are things people don't know - nobody knows about the Brotherhood, or who killed the Freys, etc. 

For that matter, why does everyone assume Tommen committed suicide and was not murdered, when no one was there to see it happen?

Nobody else in his heavily guarded apartments, and nobody would dare accuse Cersei of such a thing.

[Rara Avis]

To further what Dudley has said, Stannis believed he was the reincarnation of Azor Ahai, the Prince who was Promised. Azor Ahai, a figure from legend, had defeated the White Walkers using the sword Lightbringer. This sword could only be forged through the sacrifice of something very dear to him and to temper (?) the blade he had to run it through his wife's heart. Stannis sacrifice of Shireen in order to fulfill this prophecy should maybe be viewed within this context.

The Boltons are not an up-jumped minor house, while they are not the biggest of the Northern houses they are an old house. Even though they are widely disliked they are still Northerners and the other Northern Houses are more likely to follow them or pledge allegiance to them than Stannis or any of the Southern houses. Roose Bolton saw an opportunity and took it. The marriage of Sansa and Ramsey was of course to secure the Northern alliances and put on official stamp on their rule. Re: Ramsey it is quite unbelievable that Baelish did not know about Ramsey's proclivities prior to the engagement. This man prides himself on knowing everything. Littlefinger's ultimate aim is to sit on the Iron Throne and everything he has done works towards this aim while getting revenge on his enemies at the same time.

I think in this episode we saw a glimpse of Jamie's changing feelings towards Cersei. We've known for a while that her lust to rule has warped her but he's only starting to see it. Her refusal to discuss or mourn Tommen's death, instead calling him a traitor , was a major alarm bell. Her only redeeming feature in the past has been her devotion to her children and without that she's Mad King II. Jamie killed Aerys to stop him using wildfire on the city and Cersei has crossed a line with her actions at the Sept of Baelor. She's clearly deluded re: the power she actually wields and he tried explaining this to her - that she rules 3 kingdoms at best and they have no allies. Who is going to want to ally with her now? Only the even crazier and power hungry Euron who will cut her throat the first chance he gets.

Timing in the show has just gone all over the shop in the past few seasons. Euron's fleet is a great example of that but another issue is how everyone knows everything at the same time. There's no way to track where people are in relation to each other. Well we can assume that Sam's montage occurred before Dany landed at Dragonstone but Jon has just been declared King in the North and immediately receives a raven from Cersei demanding he travel south to bend the knee. I don't think that ravens have gotten faster and with the weather getting worse surely they would get slower. While there are things that people don't know at the end of this episode they are all bound to know by the end of the next episode. Maybe it's just bad editing - but it is confusing : are the plots running concurrently?

Before Jon agreed to let the Wildlings through the wall, the Nights Watch were busy trying to defend the wall from them - maybe they just didn't have time to plot rebellion.

As for the Knights of the Vale, Baelish wouldn't give help without some caveat attached. He helped Sansa before and the price was her marriage to Ramsey maybe she was reluctant to ask for his help again?

I think the Faceless Men let Arya go because the Many Faced God required a new face and she provided one, it didn't have to be hers. She paid her debt and was allowed to leave. Also maybe they are aware of some duty that Arya must perform at a future date and this is why they trained her.

Re: Tommen. Truthfully it doesn't matter to Cersei anymore. It had been prophesied  by Maggy the Frog that all of Cersei's children would die so she knew after Myrcella died that Tommen's days were numbered.

[Theblazeuk]

One alternative is that all the stuff in the North actually happened after Cersei blew up the High Sept.

[Rara Avis]

I think the show could be improved by an indication of where different plots are in the general time line.

I also just thought of something .. the prophesy regarding the death of Cersei's children said that three of her children would die. She took this to mean her children with Jamie but she also had a child with Robert that died at birth or was still born. This could mean that Tommen might have lived had he not been driven to suicide by his mothers actions...

[radiator]

To further what Dudley has said, Stannis believed he was the reincarnation of Azor Ahai, the Prince who was Promised. Azor Ahai, a figure from legend, had defeated the White Walkers using the sword Lightbringer. This sword could only be forged through the sacrifice of something very dear to him and to temper (?) the blade he had to run it through his wife's heart. Stannis sacrifice of Shireen in order to fulfill this prophecy should maybe be viewed within this context.

None of this context is in the TV show though (have they even specifically mentioned Azhor Ahai?), and it is firmly established that Stannis is obsessed with the line of succession. I also don't think Stannis ever truly personally believes in all this prophecy stuff anyway. The burning of Shireen came totally out of left field. To be clear, I believe that Stannis will burn Shireen in the books, eventually (the show writers implied that this plot point came direct from Martin), but I think the circumstances will be very different (and will make a lot more sense).

She didn't trust Baelish to actually bring them until they arrived.

That isn't a satisfactory explanation. She still had no reason to not mention even the possibility to Jon. It's just plain weird.

Alliser Thorne spent his entire life defending the rules.  It takes a lot of time and conspiring to overcome that.

Again, this isn't really an explanation... Thorne had a clear opportunity to deny Jon and the Wildlings entry, but he let them in, then assassinated Jon after the fact. It doesn't make any sense.

All explained in this scene:

No it isn't. That scene is just a band aid to paper over some shoddy writing. Roose Bolton wanted the Starks gone, the war to be over, and to be Warden of the North (he never wanted to be 'king', and this is never mentioned). He achieved all of this. Why then immediately risk it all by defying the Lannisters? It's far more likely that the Boltons would simply murder Sansa as her being alive presents a clear challenge to their hold on the North.

the North, which is the largest and most powerful of the Seven Kingdoms (so not a jumped-up little house any more)

Largest, yes. Most powerful? No - the South is infinitely wealthier and more powerful. And yes, while the Boltons are in ascendency at this point, they very much are an upjumped minor house, on a level with the Freys - and like the Freys, the Bolton's newfound power is wholly reliant on the backing of the Iron Throne. There's no way they'd risk open war with the South for some nebulous gain, when murdering Sansa would consolidate their claim just as much as marrying her into the family.

Littlefinger's ultimate aim is to sit on the Iron Throne and everything he has done works towards this aim while getting revenge on his enemies at the same time.

For the first few seasons, yeah - he engineered a war so he could personally profit from the chaos and was always one step ahead of everyone else. But now? He's taking out of character, reckless risks and has ended up in a far weaker and more vulnerable position than he's ever been. It's very hard to discern what his endgame is from here, or how being stranded in the frozen North, as a tentative ally of the Starks, gets him any closer to the throne...

[Rara Avis]

None of this context is in the TV show though (have they even specifically mentioned Azhor Ahai?)

You're right, it's not mentioned within the context of the show you could just see Shireen's death as the big sacrifice required in order to capture Winterfell. I think Stannis absolutely believed he was Azor Ahai right up until he lost the battle and Brienne killed him. His obsession with the succession was because he *was* Robert's rightful heir - the children with Cersei are all Jamie's and Renly was the younger brother who thought he should be king because people liked him more. Stannis should have been Westeros rightful King but he was more concerned with securing his place on the throne than creating a dynasty. He felt overlooked by Robert and then he was overlooked by events. It may be cruel to say it but Stannis could have remarried and had more children. We'll have to wait and see what direction the book goes.

It's very hard to discern what his endgame is from here, or how being stranded in the frozen North, as a tentative ally of the Starks, gets him any closer to the throne...

Well he appears to be causing trouble with Jon / Sansa, he is in effect the ruler of the Vale until Robin reaches his maturity and we have been given some clues that he knows the truth about Lyanna and Rhaegar so he may know about Jon's parentage. As the White Walkers converge on the wall once again Littlefinger is in the thick of it and who knows what trouble he will stir up. He may be only giving the appearance of being in a weakened position to put other characters at ease.

[sheridan]

This thread has gone a bit quiet for the past two weeks, funny considering all the stuff that's been going on this series.

This last episode was a bit good, wasn't it?  Finally showing [spoiler]some of the things that have been promised since the very first episodes, from the first time we were told about a Targaryen using dragons to burn a city and shown three dragon eggs being given to a Targaryen soon after to Drogo promising a horde to reclaim Westeros not long after that[/spoiler].

[Rara Avis]

I absolutely loved the last two episodes.

However I don't understand why Dany [spoiler]didn't do a drive by and burn more of the Lannister men when they were all neatly lined up instead of just burning one small section in the wall. Also I believe it was grain in those wagons she burned as the gold was already through the gates so now there is no food for anyone and Winter is coming [/spoiler]

This weeks episode was action packed but sadly too short. I definitely could have done with another ten minutes.

The most surprising thing that might come out of this is that [spoiler]Jamie drowns off screen in his armour.[/spoiler] but that's highly unlikely. Or is it?

[IndigoPrime]

I read a review that noted your second spoiler would likely have happened if the book's author was in control, but he isn't, so it won't. As for the episode, that battle was a bit good on the whole – despite inevitable cop-outs in a few people being lucky (I'm being charitable) – and the timing of things now essentially being incoherent. If you're running multiple storylines simultaneously, it doesn't really help when one spans hours, one spans days, and another spans weeks.

[Rara Avis]

It would be very surprising if that did happen but also kinda brilliant as we've had no main characters die since? ....Who was the last main character to die?

I don't think this will happen because of the Valonquar prophecy ... but you never know ..