Game of Thrones Season 7: It's A Bit Nippy Out (SPOILERS)

[radiator]

The fact that there's so much confusion and opposing interpretations regarding the Sansa/Arya plot says to me that there are problems with muddy plotting/writing. The 'twist' should be really satisfying, but loses a lot of its impact if no one is 100% sure what was really going on in the first place.

The thing is, it's not just about killing him. She could do that anytime. She has to beat him - she has to set a trap and he has to trip it.

Why, exactly? How does this make sense from a practical/logical point of view? Where/when is this implied? Seriously, watch those scenes again - his speech being the catalyst is clearly what they were going for. Up until that point, she was genuinely going to side with someone she knew was a creep, a traitor and a murderer over her own flesh and blood.

I'm not saying there aren't holes or that the writing is bullet proof but almost everything held up as a significant 'hole' seems to me like something that people have stuck their fingers through and tried to make into something bigger.

Each to their own - for me the way the wall comes down isn't a nitpick - it's a crucial event that completely reframes the entire story from here on out, and not in a good way. It's just something I'll have to try and ignore.

GRRM enjoyed writing himself into a corner in the first 3 books and the 2 subsequent, less plot driven, books seem to imply a writer who's not too sure himself how to pull back from that and has tried to put off the inevitable story convergences for a while longer. He created a feeling in the early books that anything can happen and be emotional but there's only so many times you can kill off main characters to subvert an old trope until it too becomes predictable and tired. It's also hard to have a satisfying story that's just filled with surprises and surprise deaths till the end for the simple fact someone must survive and by simple process of elimination it became clear quite early on who they would more or less be. At some point it all has to come together but also, ironically in this case, be in some way predictable.

I don't think any of my criticisms are that there aren't enough twists or deaths - I'm talking pretty basic plot stuff - character, motivation, internal logic etc. It's been imo significantly shakier these last two seasons when the show writers have had to invent a lot of stuff themselves. I'm totally fine with the odd bit of hand-waving regarding travel distances, stuff like that, but this season has been really egregious to the point of being distracting.

I suspect if the remaining books ever get finished, many of the things that are disliked about these final seasons will be present, albeit in an altered extended form, in the 'original' work.

Me too, though I'd argue that the reason they're disliked is in the execution. As I've said before, Stannis will burn Shireen, Sansa will turn on Littlefinger, the Wall will come down, Jon and Dany will fall in love. I just think it will be a lot better executed and more tightly plotted. Not that I want to totally rag on the show - I think in many ways (especially in the early seasons) it did a damn fine job of adaptation. It just seems like the quality of the writing has taken a nosedive since they ran out of material to adapt.

Tyrion requested Daenerys not go beyond the wall – both of whom have little idea of what the Walkers and the Night King can do.

I'm talking more on a meta level. Does it make for a good story, knowing the heroes were (charitably) indirectly responsible for unleashing the evil horde, and the subsequent slaughter that's about to take place, especially (as I pointed out) as the way they lost the dragon was ultimately pointless?

[JamesC]

People are known to do things that are not practical or logical - especially where strong emotions are involved.
I think Sansa's intentions (or at least her feelings) towards LF have been implied subtly over a few seasons. It's just the way she acts around him. I never thought the sisters would truly betray each other (see my post after the previous episode) and that LFs days were numbered. I just never really felt like it was going any other way because I feel I know the characters.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

I would like to think GRRM nitpicks the plot as much as you guys and THAT'S WHY WE HAVEN'T GOT THE NEXT BOOK!

[Hawkmumbler]

Tangenial theory: [spoiler]Cersei is putting too much faith in Euron, and her reveal is a red herring. I bet he really has turned tail and ran back to the Iron Isles.[/spoiler]

[lincnash]

Sorry about all this posting. I'll stop in a minute! 

Please don't, this is all great stuff from all sides.
Quite civil debate on a great TV show.
Still hasn't descended into "F**K ALL YOU C****", which is a rare thing these days.

[Bolt-01]

Bah, going to have to wait a long time to see if Tormund makes it off the wall safely...

[lincnash]

Bah, going to have to wait a long time to see if Tormund makes it off the wall safely...

Surely there must be some Brienne action in his future (cool art btw).

[Richard]

There's a nice parallel with what happened to Arya. Arya had the shit beaten out of her but ended up learning to kick ass. Sansa was manipulated and used as a pawn by just about everyone. Now she's learned to be a chess player rather than a chess piece.

I think this is spot on.

I don't think the idea that Sansa only just realised how bad Littlefinger is when he made his "I play a little game" speech stands up to scrutiny. She's known exactly what kind of man he is since series 4, when he told her he killed Joffrey, and killed her aunt in front of her. Then he sold her to Ramsey Bolton who tormented, raped and flogged her. Then after all that, after the Battle of the Bastards he have her that speech about how he wants to be king and everything he does is calculated to make that happen, and then she sees the scheming look on his face when the lords hail her brother as king of the North. It's not really plausible that she just didn't notice any of this at the time.

As she herself said sarcastically to Littlefinger at the start of this year's season (when discussing Cersei): "the woman who killed my father, my mother and my brother is dangerous? Thank you for your wise counsel." She's not incapable of recognising who is dangerous. She was a silly little girl when we met her in series one, but she's come a long way: she said that too a couple of weeks ago, to Arya in fact. In hindsight, both of these comments were clues about where her storyline was going this year.

If you really thought that she didn't know what was going on until the last episode, then I don't know what else will convince you.

As for the manner in which they sent him on his way: what else could they do? He was Lord Protector of the Vale, and Winterfell was teeming with the Vale's soldiers. Most of the soldiers in that hall were from the Vale. They could hardly just do him in in secret and hope for the best.  Instead they got the Vale's fat general bloke on their side: no mean feat for two teenage girls. It was a necessary bit of theatre, and perfectly conceived and executed. And from a writing / drama perspective, it has really developed Sansa as a character. The other interpretation of her storyline makes her look like some kind of total fucking idiot who hasn't changed at all since series 1 episode 1 except that she had bigger tits. I know which interpretation I prefer.

[sheridan]

All the Theon scenes - especially his heart to heart with Jon. The beach scene was a little odd, but I loved the shot of him collapsing on the beach with the sun setting behind the cliffs in the background. Despite his season arc feeling very repetitious (how many times does he have to man up?)

You were that close to saying he grew a pair

[sheridan]

Sorry about all this posting. I'll stop in a minute! 

Basically, Sansa's motivations and overall plan aren't strategic, they're emotional. When the times comes to do the deed though, she's learnt enough to make the most of it. It makes for an effective demonstration to her peers.

Bit disappointed that the person to declare the sentence didn't carry out the sentence...

[radiator]

I don't think the idea that Sansa only just realised how bad Littlefinger is when he made his "I play a little game" speech stands up to scrutiny.... If you really thought that she didn't know what was going on until the last episode, then I don't know what else will convince you.

Is there a 'head banging against a desk' emoji I can use? 

Again, that isn't the point I or anyone else is making. I'm saying I don't understand why she would have ever considered siding with Littlefinger against her own family*, given what she knows about him and the things she has seen him do. What's weird to me is that they play the scene as if it is a revelation she's come to. She even says 'I'm a slow learner.'

*Which the show clearly demonstrates that she is considering up until the 'little game' speech, which is when she turns his own logic against him and instead decides to patch things up with Arya (in a scene we don't see). The idea that she's been playing Littlefinger the whole season long is just plain wrong - all the previous scenes of mistrust and tension between her and Arya weren't staged, they were 'real', and that's my issue - I didn't buy it as seeming authentic or in-character for either of them. I never believed for a second they would actually try to kill each other, so the whole plotline just seemed phoney and drawn out to me.

[lincnash]

Potentially the "big reveal" opening scene of Season 8 :-
Arya was lurking in the shadows during L-F's speech to Sansa ?. 

[lincnash]

Here ya go.

[JamesC]

I don't think the idea that Sansa only just realised how bad Littlefinger is when he made his "I play a little game" speech stands up to scrutiny.... If you really thought that she didn't know what was going on until the last episode, then I don't know what else will convince you.

Is there a 'head banging against a desk' emoji I can use? 

Again, that isn't the point I or anyone else is making. I'm saying I don't understand why she would have ever considered siding with Littlefinger against her own family*, given what she knows about him and the things she has seen him do. What's weird to me is that they play the scene as if it is a revelation she's come to. She even says 'I'm a slow learner.'

*Which the show clearly demonstrates that she is considering up until the 'little game' speech, which is when she turns his own logic against him and instead decides to patch things up with Arya (in a scene we don't see). The idea that she's been playing Littlefinger the whole season long is just plain wrong - all the previous scenes of mistrust and tension between her and Arya weren't staged, they were 'real', and that's my issue - I didn't buy it as seeming authentic or in-character for either of them. I never believed for a second they would actually try to kill each other, so the whole plotline just seemed phoney and drawn out to me.

We'll have to agree to disagree but there are at least two people on this thread who don't think she ever really did consider siding with LF against Arya. At most she is tempted by the promise of more power and perhaps likes to imagine how far she could go if Jon and Arya weren't around. But I don't think there was ever a serious intention to betray the other Starks, no matter how clearly you seem to think this was shown. It was all a game. Some of us even said so at the time.

[Richard]

Why would Bran think Jon being born in Dorne would make him a Sand rather than a Snow, when Jon's place of birth has never been in dispute...? Everyone knows he wasn't born in the North.

Nobody knew that except Ned Stark, and us. It's still a massive secret.