Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)

[Link Prime]

 

Seriously though....I'm re-reading this frickin thing first chance I get!

[TordelBack]

I think Jayzus himself covers the big one - the superhumans become the Lloigor by choice by incubating in the Sun, and the Lloigor in turn create the superhumans in the 'past' to ensure their own creation.  However, in considering Chimera I think it's important to remember that that it too is a product of the serum, and thus the Lloigor. 

If I was to put a structure on the whole thing, I'd suggest that 'our' Iok Sotot & Co are actually the product of a different universe/parallel, who have achieved their aim: the transcendence of spacetime they seek at the close of Phase IV.  Once they have escaped their universe they enter Zenith's at a point in the past (timetravel not being part of the deal with the Einstein-Rosen Bridge method) to create new versions of themselves, thus propagating themselves across the multiverse.  However in Zenith's universe St. John uniquely uses their own creation Chimera to move them on to a pocket universe before they can gestate, and their plans are foiled by the specifc 'closed' nature of Chimera.

As to why there aren't existing versions of Cloud 9 et al already in Chimera, I'd say there definitely were up to that moment, but Chimera is a perfect copy of universe, and once St. John pops them in there the perfection would be broken, so Chimera simply integrates them as the sole versions. 

[Trout]

No, the nature of the Lloigor is that they are extra-dimensional. That means that - although they were born in a particular dimension - once they ascend they exist outside of spacetime. St John uses Chimera to trap them because it is as powerful as they are.

It's important to understand that Chimera is a universe that can change its shape, so it can decide what's in there. St John contacts it and Chimera agrees to help trap the Lloigor, so it would follow that it creates the necessary conditions.

[TordelBack]

Yeah, the connivance of Chimera as an entity, in effect an elder 'brother' of Cloud 9, is a key point in understanding what's going on.

As to the Lloigor existing outside of spacetime - isn't this state exactly what 'our' versions, Peyne's superhumans and their descendants and contemporaries from other parallels, were still only heading towards at the end of Phase IV, when their journey was cut short? 

[Trout]

My head hurts. Will someone ask Grant, please? 

[JayzusB.Christ]

I like cake.

[13school]

I thought their location outside space & time was also their location inside Chimera - the bit where the Llogior are racing towards the end of the universe right before they discover they're trapped seems to suggest they pretty much trash their whole universe behind them, creating a place where time and space no longer apply. Inside Chimera is totally separate from our universe, so from there they can get to our universe at any point in time.

Put another way, St John traps the soon-to-be-Llogior in a pocket universe which - for reasons that are never explained - their "original" space monster forms don't notice is a pocket universe (let alone remember how they were created and trapped in the first place). So when Cloud 9 fly off from the (pocket universe's) Earth to join with their original forms that have seeded / formed a gateway in the sun, they're really just joining with their original forms inside the pocket universe / trap where they've always been.

As they need to join with their original forms to be able to enter the "real" world, having Cloud 9 being inside the pocket universe pulls them into the pocket universe. Where, really, they've always been anyway.

I think.

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

It's important to understand that Chimera is a universe that can change its shape, so it can decide what's in there. St John contacts it and Chimera agrees to help trap the Lloigor, so it would follow that it creates the necessary conditions.

Highly plausible, I think you've nailed it!

[TordelBack]

Having a one-volume Tyger Files: the Complete Zenith on one's desk would make this discussion much easier...

[JayzusB.Christ]

It's important to understand that Chimera is a universe that can change its shape, so it can decide what's in there. St John contacts it and Chimera agrees to help trap the Lloigor, so it would follow that it creates the necessary conditions.

Highly plausible, I think you've nailed it!

Aye, I believe so.  Also I think I've worked out why Chimera is a pyramid - The Alignment of Phase 3 was supposed to be an omnihedron, so it figures that each seperate universe is tetrahedral.  Therefore Chimera, in copying an individual universe, has to be tetrehedral too.
Or at least tetrahedral to our very limited human perception.

Thirdly, I've found the bit where David Cambridge resurrects - Peyne explains that the disintegrated body found in the hotel room was not Lux at all, but a human substitute.  I'd forgotten about the interlude with the parallel Australia.
Jesus wept, Grant Morrison is even smarter than I thought.  My mind's blown by Zenith all over again now that we're filling in the gaps.  I've heard it said that Phase 4 seems tacked-on and unnecessary - I didn't agree then and I agree even less now; it's what binds the whole story together by explaining the true identity of the Lloigor, their origin and the reasons for their quest for ascension.

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

I've heard it said that Phase 4 seems tacked-on and unnecessary - I didn't agree then and I agree even less now; it's what binds the whole story together by explaining the true identity of the Lloigor, their origin and the reasons for their quest for ascension.

Phase IV is awesome, and completes the story beautifully. I know Morrison wasn't keen to write it - he was more interested in his American work - but the arm-twisting done to get it on the page does not come through at all.

[The Enigmatic Dr X]

Gents, I can clear it all up in six panels. (Sorry, but I am disproportionally proud of this).




Taken from this old thread:

https://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php/topic,27644.0.html


And can I add that Davey C's attention to detail is superb.

[JayzusB.Christ]

I remember that one.  Nice work, sir! 

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

That is indeed Zenith in 6 panels. Bravo!

[JayzusB.Christ]

Oh, and...

As to the Lloigor existing outside of spacetime - isn't this state exactly what 'our' versions, Peyne's superhumans and their descendants and contemporaries from other parallels, were still only heading towards at the end of Phase IV, when their journey was cut short?

Hmmm. Good point.  I thought they were already timeless though; the point of ascension was to be able to move freely around parallels and spacetime.  Before ascension they can still move about spacetime - they do it within the Chimera universe - but they can't travel freely from universe to universe without using hosts.  Hence the attempts at ascension in Phase 3.  Which is both before and after Phase 4.  Kind of thing.