New Dr Who Trailer

[M.I.K.]

Given where the discussion is now, I was trying to think of female protagonists I enjoyed as a boy.  (Of course, given the comparative lack of roles for women, the list to choose from is shorter).

Charlie's Angels, Wonder Woman, The Bionic Woman, one half of Sapphire and Steel, one half of Scarecrow & Mrs. King, Miss Marple, Jessica Fletcher, Ellen Ripley, Emma Peel, Tara King, Leela from Doctor Who, Nancy Drew, Super Gran...

[Greg M.]

Two points.

1: I was talking about role-models. The thread seems to have turned into a game of "name a tv show you watched that had a woman in it." I'm not saying you didn't watch Charlie's Angels as a boy. But in most cases, I don't think you grew up wanting to be Wonder Woman.

2: In accordance with the above, I think there's a difference between boys reading or watching stories starring other children, and stories starring adult women. I read Wizard of Oz same as the rest of you, because it was about a child having exciting adventures in a magical land. But whilst Dorothy Gale might have been a kindred spirit, she was not someone to look up to – not because of her gender, but because she was a kid, same as me.

[Funt Solo]

Taking those two points.

1. I didn't grow up wanting to be Maria (from The Sound of Music), but I also didn't grow up wanting to be Doctor Who: but they're still both role models for me.  Maria is kind, strong-willed and hates Nazis.  Doctor Who is an eccentric problem solver.  (Charlies Angels and Wonder Woman, the television shows, aren't examples I'd have used, because they both use scantily clad women doing high kicks that otherwise seem like ciphers.  I'm not sure what I'd be aspiring to.  You could also place He-Man in this category.)  I don't think gender factors into whether or not I find someone personally inspiring.

2. I don't think age factors into whether or not I find someone personally inspiring.  Dorothy Gale is brave and investigative: that's someone to look up to.  What's age got to do with it?

(My six-year old daughter told me the other day she wanted to put racism in the trash.  It's a bit naive, perhaps, but I still find her passion inspiring.)

[Greg M.]

What's age got to do with it?

I don't think I'm saying anything particularly controversial when I suggest that children look up to adults – that, in a nutshell, is what age has to do with it. I am not saying that positive female figures are not important in the lives of boys: I think they are. I am simply saying – and again, I don't think this is especially controversial – that boys often want to model their behaviour on that of older boys or men, and in that respect, the Doctor has been a good role-model. You may not have wanted to grow up to be the Doctor, but I did. (Well, the Doctor and Indiana Jones and John Steed and Luke Skywalker, or some combination thereof.)

[IndigoPrime]

Edit: IndigoPrime - have you tried Ronia the Robber's Daughter?  My daughter loves that - it's a book and a series (with English narration by Gillian Anderson) by Studio Ghibli.  Oh, and she also loves Kiki's Delivery Service.

Thanks for the tips – I'll stick some of those on our list.

I think there's a difference between boys reading or watching stories starring other children, and stories starring adult women.

Although the two are linked. Boys are effectively trained at a young age to be little shits to girls, and that they shouldn't do "girly" things because that's seen as weakness. Also, if I hear "boys will be boys" again when they're being little arseholes, I may brain someone. (No: YOU let these boys act like this, because, in a cyclical fashion, "boys will be boys". When four year old boys are, for example, screaming at our local pre-school that GIRLS AREN'T ALLOWED in areas of the play area, that is not fucking healthy.) This is the problem at that age, but it in many cases extends into adulthood – blokes that won't watch a rom-com because "that's the the missus", even if it's funny and a good story. Anything girly is seen as weak rather than an alternative experience. And when women gravitate towards male-dominated areas, they are often ostracised or ridiculed. (See how many female fans of comics are told they OBVIOUSLY don't really know what's what, and aren't real fans.)

Again, my problem with all of this is that these things are massively skewed. It's notable in SF that whenever people talk about favourite female characters, the same ones get trotted out a lot more than male ones, purely on the basis that there are far fewer to choose from. What's perhaps even more surprising to many people – because they just don't look for these things – is that if you randomly took 100 children's books from a local library, I'll bet at least 75 per cent would have male protagonists (and that's being charitable). Male is the default in media. That is the problem. That is what leads us to places where we have many movies where it's perfectly normal for the vast majority of the cast to be male, and even background crowd scenes to be 75 per cent male.

Whether Doctor Who will thrive with a female Doctor remains to be seen. But giving that series a female lead for the first time doesn't strike me as anything other than a positive step in what's, after all, a fantasy show about an alien that can regenerate.

[TordelBack]

Male is the default in media. That is the problem. .

If there was a single sentence that I could instill in the minds of everyone engaged in debates like these,  it's this one. This is the issue: to be male is to be normal,  to be female is to be other, and frequently lesser.

If you believe this situation is wrong, then representation is the only way it will be addressed.

[Bolt-01]

Seconded.

[M.I.K.]

But in most cases, I don't think you grew up wanting to be Wonder Woman.

Maybe not, but I distinctly remember spinning round in circles and deflecting bullets with my wristbands.

[Leigh S]

Tordelback gets to the heart of it - boys may be habituated to the universe shining othe spotlight on them, but it's a habit that will only change when we stop making assumptions - girls and minorities have had to scrabble around for representation or go with Harry Potter/Luke Skywalker as their go to role model  - if ti was just as easy as "get your own role model", why has Star Wars fandom imploded when they did that very thing with Rey and Finn?

My daughter is 9 and whenever we have watched Bake Off/Painting Challenge type programmes, she immediately decides the youngest and prettiest woman is her favourite, so I accept that there is an element of human nature that makes us want to see "ourselves"  - but that just makes the case stronger for pushing for even greater range of representation.

Male is the default in media. That is the problem. .

If there was a single sentence that I could instill in the minds of everyone engaged in debates like these,  it's this one. This is the issue: to be male is to be normal,  to be female is to be other, and frequently lesser.

If you believe this situation is wrong, then representation is the only way it will be addressed.

[Steve Green]

Short interview with the new composer, sounds like they might be going back to the original Delia Derbyshire/Ron Grainer track in tone, which would be nice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3GNaLeS0kE&feature=youtu.be

[IndigoPrime]

Well, that sounds pretty positive. One thing I am looking forward to is an absence of Murray Gold.

[Colin YNWA]

Well, that sounds pretty positive. One thing I am looking forward to is an absence of Murray Gold.

So, so true. His music was so forced overpowering.

[Steve Green]

I'm hoping for something a bit less showy/OTT

[ABCwarBOT]

They're trying nearly every trick in the book now to try and get all the pissed off fans back on board.   Increasing the budget, going back to the original type music and bringing in a well known game show host that has a female following to boost the ratings.

   

[Jim_Campbell]

and bringing in a well known game show host that has a female following to boost the ratings.

You know he has proper acting credentials, and even a link to Who via the Sarah Jane adventures, right? It might, just might, not be the conspiracy you think it is.