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The Political Thread

Started by The Legendary Shark, 09 April, 2010, 03:59:03 PM

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IndigoPrime

If a Muslim drove halfway across the country to run over people outside a Christian church, while shouting "I want to kill all Christians", I'm sure everyone would be giving him the benefit of the doubt in exactly the same way, along with toning down headlines, including describing his facial hair in a manner that's entirely not designed to push people to think better of him.

SuperSurfer

A truly despicable sickening act that is rightly being condemned. I pass that mosque most days. Terrifying that such barbarous acts feel increasingly closer to home.

Seem to be wildly conflicting stories about police response time. Corbyn said they responded in a timely manner. Sajid Javid said two minutes. Some sources say within ten minutes. And yet one eye-witness on BBC News says it took 45 mins for an ambulance to arrive and one hour for the police to arrive and tries to draw a parallel with other recent attacks, implying there is bias by the police and ambulance service. He also says there were definitely three attackers while the police say it was one attacker. Why such a discrepancy? Who is wrong? Would the ambulance service and police say: it was against Muslims and we will not prioritise this?

Draw your own conclusions as to his skin tone. BTW all folks do not fall neatly into black and white, you know. Humans do come in variations. Even within families.

Not sure how Christian came into this. Why not bring that into the mix? Expected, really.

Was the police statement belated? Police were putting out information about this at 1am. At 8.30am they stated they are with an open mind treating it as a terrorist incident.   

M.I.K.

Quote from: Eric Plumrose on 19 June, 2017, 01:10:20 PM
Far as I'm aware, there's wasn't any mention of his race prior to the phone footage. Or since, it seems. "We know what he looks like", as one talking head just said.

I heard one eye-witness use the term "white supremacist" on the news, some time around 2am.

Quote from: SuperSurfer on 19 June, 2017, 01:55:13 PM
He also says there were definitely three attackers while the police say it was one attacker. Why such a discrepancy?

When the London Bridge attack was happening, some reports were saying there were 5 or 6 attackers.

I don't know about police response times, but I found the BBC's response a bit weird. It was being reported on their website at about 1.20am. I put the telly on, switched to the BBC News channel, but there was only some sports news programme on, with a ticker going along the bottom of the screen with no mention of any incident in London. I switched across to Sky News, and they were covering the attack with a shot of emergency vehicles and flashing lights. Switched back to the BBC, still sports, still nothing about the incident. At 2am the main headlines came on, none of which were the incident, and only after those had been read out was there the "breaking news" that they'd reported on their website 40 minutes previously.

sheridan

Quote from: Eric Plumrose on 19 June, 2017, 12:49:13 PM
While no less deplorable, it's quite conceivable (as of writing with no other reliable information immediately available) a hate crime. "I want to kill all Muslims" doesn't really give us anything beyond said fuckwit's immediate intent. Until established it was a deliberate act intended to engender fear among UK Muslims I'm not comfortable with him being called a 'terrorist'.


Where is the line between a hate crime intended to kill people due to their race or religion and a terrorist attack?  Genuinely want to know where you draw the line.

Eric Plumrose

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 19 June, 2017, 01:42:21 PM
If a Muslim drove halfway across the country to run over people outside a Christian church, while shouting "I want to kill all Christians", I'm sure everyone would be giving him the benefit of the doubt in exactly the same way, along with toning down headlines, including describing his facial hair in a manner that's entirely not designed to push people to think better of him.

I agree. Equally, I would urge the same caution as I've been suggesting here. Note though the time of my original post: 0752. Khan had already declared it to be a terrorist attack, pre-empting the police statement.

Was the act one of Terrorism? Quite possibly, yes. And probable, but only if I assume everything I've heard so far is true.

Quote from: M.I.K. on 19 June, 2017, 02:22:13 PM
I heard one eye-witness use the term "white supremacist" on the news, some time around 2am.

An eyewitness statements in lieu of corroborated facts. Too often this is the problem with twenty-four hour news coverage with speculation and hearsay being used to pad airtime.
Not sure if pervert or cheesecake expert.

SuperSurfer

Quote from: Eric Plumrose on 19 June, 2017, 03:03:14 PM
I agree. Equally, I would urge the same caution as I've been suggesting here. Note though the time of my original post: 0752. Khan had already declared it to be a terrorist attack, pre-empting the police statement.

Via Twitter:
"Metropolitan Police @metpoliceuk  10 hours ago
LATEST on #SevenSisters Road #FinsburyPark incident. One person has died. Counter Terrorism Command investigating. http://ow.ly/9lDR30cH7Zq "

Metropolitan Police:
"04:46hrs on 19 June...
A number police units are at, and managing the cordons around, the crime scene, including local officers and those from neighbouring boroughs - supported by armed officers and the Territorial Support Group.

The investigation of the incident is being carried out by the Counter Terrorism Command."

von Boom

Quote from: sheridan on 19 June, 2017, 02:59:09 PM
Quote from: Eric Plumrose on 19 June, 2017, 12:49:13 PM
While no less deplorable, it's quite conceivable (as of writing with no other reliable information immediately available) a hate crime. "I want to kill all Muslims" doesn't really give us anything beyond said fuckwit's immediate intent. Until established it was a deliberate act intended to engender fear among UK Muslims I'm not comfortable with him being called a 'terrorist'.


Where is the line between a hate crime intended to kill people due to their race or religion and a terrorist attack?  Genuinely want to know where you draw the line.

Perhaps it's a matter of intent (another can of worms). If the intent is to do violence for some sort of quasi-political gain then it could be terrorism. If the intent is violence out of sheer malice and prejudice it's a hate crime.

Tjm86

Quote from: von Boom on 19 June, 2017, 03:19:16 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 19 June, 2017, 02:59:09 PM
Quote from: Eric Plumrose on 19 June, 2017, 12:49:13 PM
While no less deplorable, it's quite conceivable (as of writing with no other reliable information immediately available) a hate crime. "I want to kill all Muslims" doesn't really give us anything beyond said fuckwit's immediate intent. Until established it was a deliberate act intended to engender fear among UK Muslims I'm not comfortable with him being called a 'terrorist'.


Where is the line between a hate crime intended to kill people due to their race or religion and a terrorist attack?  Genuinely want to know where you draw the line.

Perhaps it's a matter of intent (another can of worms). If the intent is to do violence for some sort of quasi-political gain then it could be terrorism. If the intent is violence out of sheer malice and prejudice it's a hate crime.

If that's the case then isn't what Islamic extremists are doing simply a hate crime?  There does seem to be a lack of political gain, in fact they are achieving the opposite.  On the one hand they are alienating themselves within their own religion, on the other hand they are alienating everyone else.

Hawkmumbler

I believe hate crime and terrorism are to a degree synonymous. Take the Pulse Night Club shooting, now a long long year ago. The gunman in question was a radicalised ISIS perpetrator and rabid homophobe. He deliberatly targeted a safe zone for minorities and killed dozens. Thats a targeted premeditated hate crime, but it was also carried out in the name of radicalised Islam making it ideologically driven.

Their are a LOT of grey areas between the two, but ultimately I think it boils down to this. Not all hate crimes are acts of terrorism, but all acts of terrorism are hate crimes.

Eric Plumrose

Quote from: SuperSurfer on 19 June, 2017, 03:18:23 PM
Via Twitter:
"Metropolitan Police @metpoliceuk  10 hours ago
LATEST on #SevenSisters Road #FinsburyPark incident. One person has died. Counter Terrorism Command investigating. http://ow.ly/9lDR30cH7Zq "

Metropolitan Police:
"04:46hrs on 19 June...
A number police units are at, and managing the cordons around, the crime scene, including local officers and those from neighbouring boroughs - supported by armed officers and the Territorial Support Group.

The investigation of the incident is being carried out by the Counter Terrorism Command."

Your point being? The police were treating it as a possible terrorist attack with more than one assailant. Better that than assuming it was a 'lesser' incident and allowing anyone else conceivably involved go to ground.
Not sure if pervert or cheesecake expert.

Eric Plumrose

Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 19 June, 2017, 03:58:47 PM
Their are a LOT of grey areas between the two, but ultimately I think it boils down to this. Not all hate crimes are acts of terrorism, but all acts of terrorism are hate crimes.

Even that's a simplification. But then I thought Jim did a typically better-worded job clarifying what I thought I'd clearly said.
Not sure if pervert or cheesecake expert.

Hawkmumbler

Yeah I guess it IS a sinplification, but folk started talking about intentions which is really kind of moot from the start as far as murder is concerned.

Impact of Actions >>>>> Intentions of Actions

SuperSurfer

Quote from: Eric Plumrose on 19 June, 2017, 04:00:02 PM
Quote from: SuperSurfer on 19 June, 2017, 03:18:23 PM
Via Twitter:
"Metropolitan Police @metpoliceuk  10 hours ago
LATEST on #SevenSisters Road #FinsburyPark incident. One person has died. Counter Terrorism Command investigating. http://ow.ly/9lDR30cH7Zq "

Metropolitan Police:
"04:46hrs on 19 June...
A number police units are at, and managing the cordons around, the crime scene, including local officers and those from neighbouring boroughs - supported by armed officers and the Territorial Support Group.

The investigation of the incident is being carried out by the Counter Terrorism Command."

Your point being? The police were treating it as a possible terrorist attack with more than one assailant. Better that than assuming it was a 'lesser' incident and allowing anyone else conceivably involved go to ground.
I didn't know who you are suggesting might consider this a 'lesser' than terrorism incident. If it is me, then you are mistaken.

You stated that "Khan had already declared it to be a terrorist attack, pre-empting the police statement."

My point was about timing not whether it was a terrorist incident or not. I was illustrating that the Police were treating this as a suspected terrorist incident and I gave the times that they put out that information. I was pointing out that terrorist units were investigating and the Met stated this at 04.46.

The Metropolitan Police tweeted about the above one hour before Sadiq Khan, as far as I can see. 

There seems to be a narrative developing on social media and in the news that authorities were slow to react to and to condemn this despicable act. I fear that if claims are exaggerated then that will drive a wedge between communities, that it will fuel anger and a lack of trust.

People's fears must be acknowledged and acted on but people should err on the side of caution, as you suggest as well. 

Tjm86

Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 19 June, 2017, 03:58:47 PM
.... but ultimately I think it boils down to this. Not all hate crimes are acts of terrorism, but all acts of terrorism are hate crimes.

Amen.  It is a shame that the narrative, as SuperSurfer says, is developing along the lines of 'well, it was only Muslims so the met must have been asleep at the switch'.  Watching some of the commentary from the 'community' earlier on you can see where it is coming from.  Whoever this muppet is, as with those who bombed Manchester and let rip with vans and knives in London, his greatest success is in sowing discord.  That is what needs challenging more than anything else. 

Just as with those who committed those atrocities, I would suspect that the previously made assertion that he is going to turn out to be a disturbed individual who has bought into a specific narrative.  This is where the Brexit vote has turned out to be most pernicious.  As much as it galls me to turn it to this, we now have a national mindset of intolerance and isolationism that desperately needs to be challenged.

The anthem for this year really should be 'Weapons of Mass Destruction" by Faithless.  Cameron, Farage, Johnson et al have a lot to answer for.

Dark Jimbo

Quote from: Tjm86 on 19 June, 2017, 06:33:36 PM
This is where the Brexit vote has turned out to be most pernicious.  As much as it galls me to turn it to this, we now have a national mindset of intolerance and isolationism that desperately needs to be challenged.

Cameron, Farage, Johnson et al have a lot to answer for.

I really don't think the EU ref. created this mindset, if that's what you're suggesting - just emboldened those who already held certain views into expressing them more freely.
@jamesfeistdraws