The Political Thread

[M.I.K.]

There was a story on Yahoo the other day about how Orkney was the best place to live in the UK. Shetland was voted second best place to live in Scotland.

The comments were full of folk saying something along the lines of "isn't it funny how all the best places to live in the UK are the places that haven't been 'culturally enriched' and have zero migrants swarming across from Europe."

Meanwhile, everybody in Lerwick was getting ready to celebrate their cultural heritage by dressing up in winged helmets and going on a torchlight procession to set fire to a longship.

[Professor Bear]

There's some Swedish bloke on Youtube called the Golden One who makes ranty vids about how Cultural Marxism sucks because its wrong to impose all this foreign cultural hegemony and I'll skip to the punchline he fetishises Vikings.  Bodybuilds like crazy, has swords, skull ornaments, plays Skyrim as a Nord and sides with Ulfric Stormcloak in the civil war quest - the full nine yards.

[IAMTHESYSTEM]

Brexit was all about emotion as far as I can tell. A significant group felt left out by globalisation, hated the elites as they saw them who seemed unaffected by austerity and believed that mass immigration was a 'conspiracy' to make every society reflect urban cultures like London. The Neoliberals had done this to them so their cherished ideals of European integration would pay hence the result of the Referendum. I believe we'll crash out on the 30th of March, Right-wing Tories have got May bottled up in Downing Street, so they'll allow the clock to run down 'winning' by default. What comes afterwards will not be pleasant for anyone with some significant disruption to some business and the Manufacturing Industry leaving for European shores. They'll be no second referendum that's just wishful thinking so WTO here we come, the UK will break up into its constituent parts a new England, Wales Scotland and probably war in Northern Ireland and Ireland plus some outrages here by various extremist factions. Rough seas ahead are all we have to look forward to now.

[Greg M.]

the UK will break up into its constituent parts a new England, Wales Scotland

I don't know your nationality, but in my experience, non-Scots massively overestimate the Scottish desire for independence - and I say that as a (formerly card-carrying) Scottish nationalist myself. If Brexit led to an independent Scotland I'd be overjoyed, but I'm not in the least convinced the appetite for another form of exit will be there.

[CalHab]

There was a story on Yahoo the other day about how Orkney was the best place to live in the UK. Shetland was voted second best place to live in Scotland.

The comments were full of folk saying something along the lines of "isn't it funny how all the best places to live in the UK are the places that haven't been 'culturally enriched' and have zero migrants swarming across from Europe."

Meanwhile, everybody in Lerwick was getting ready to celebrate their cultural heritage by dressing up in winged helmets and going on a torchlight procession to set fire to a longship.

I saw those comments as well. It was a good news story about a community but I just felt depressed to find that some people can only see the world through race.

[IndigoPrime]

I don't know your nationality, but in my experience, non-Scots massively overestimate the Scottish desire for independence - and I say that as a (formerly card-carrying) Scottish nationalist myself. If Brexit led to an independent Scotland I'd be overjoyed, but I'm not in the least convinced the appetite for another form of exit will be there.

I suspect it'd be closer than it was last time, not least if Westminster continues basically ignoring Scotland. I imagine if we ended up in the EEA, that'd be the end of it; but outside of the single market, Scotland would have a very difficult decision to make (not least that if it did go indy and join the EEA/EU, there would be a land border with England).

[Hawkmumbler]

So long as a Scottish exist from the UK could extend to Lancashire and Yorkshire, Westminster don't give a stuff about us either.

[Greg M.]

Scottish independence would require a rethink of Scottish national identity. A majority of Scots are happy to also be British: a continued shafting from Westminster is simply the expected state of affairs, and defining ourselves in opposition to England is, for some, part and parcel of Scottishness, something that's harder to maintain if we're permanently divorced. There's an argument that the case for independence needs separated in the popular consciousness from the SNP - they've been in government a long time now and are somewhat more tarnished of late.

[CalHab]

There's an argument that the case for independence needs separated in the popular consciousness from the SNP - they've been in government a long time now and are somewhat more tarnished of late.

That's a good point. The Alex Salmond case is being used as an argument against independence, rather illogically.

Thinking about this a bit more, it would make sense for the Lib Dems to be pro-independence. They could pick up votes from disaffected SNP voters, rather than Tories, who tend to be rather fanatical these days.

[sheridan]

So long as a Scottish exist from the UK could extend to Lancashire and Yorkshire, Westminster don't give a stuff about us either.

Have a feeling that Lancashire and Yorkshire aren't a politically great fit for Scotland, certainly not regarding the referendum.  A better fit would be London (just because Westminster is physically surrounded by the city, doesn't mean the MPs there have anything in common with Londoners).

[IndigoPrime]

Thinking about this a bit more, it would make sense for the Lib Dems to be pro-independence. They could pick up votes from disaffected SNP voters, rather than Tories, who tend to be rather fanatical these days.

Given that their manifestos have so much overlap, that would be one tactic. Frankly, I never did understand the Lib Dem position of not working with the SNP in coalition. The SNP wants an independent Scotland, and the Lib Dems are opposed. But the Lib Dems also want regional devolution and a senate of sorts to replace the Lords. There's plenty of common ground; but politics in this country is so tribal that people cannot see past this.

[Dandontdare]

The Commons passes a motion that (at least theoretically) takes no deal off the table

Is that true? I thought No Deal was still a very real and increasingly likely possibility?

Sharky, austerity measures have killed 120k people in the UK,

Where does this figure come from? I'd like some evidential ammunition before quoting it myself.

[Jim_Campbell]

The Commons passes a motion that (at least theoretically) takes no deal off the table

Is that true? I thought No Deal was still a very real and increasingly likely possibility?

Hence my use of the word "theoretically" — the amendment explicitly said that the UK shouldn't leave without a deal, but didn't commit to any measure to ensure that actually happens.

[IndigoPrime]

That amendment was non-binding. It was nothing more than figuring out the collective voice of the house. May then used that combined with Brady to state the house didn't want no-deal, and the only option they went for was removing the backstop. The inference is with the backstop, the deal falls, and that's the EU's fault.

And today we hear that the claimed 40 or so Tories who don't want no deal, and therefore didn't vote for Cooper/Boles have just been shafted. There will be no defined means of placing those before MPs again, according to the leader of the house. They never bloody learn. They should have just recalled what happened to Grieve when May promised him and immediately reneged.

[Professor Bear]

Sharky, austerity measures have killed 120k people in the UK,

Where does this figure come from? I'd like some evidential ammunition before quoting it myself.

"The paper identified that mortality rates in the UK had declined steadily from 2001 to 2010, but this reversed sharply with the death rate growing again after austerity came in."

As a counterpoint, I can't say I know if Full Fact has a reputation for impartiality, but they are signatories to the International Fact Checking Network, and they have a more reserved and cautious response to the claims that basically amounts to "we can't say for sure that slashing funding to the services need to prevent those deaths was what caused those deaths, but 120 thousand deaths happened, they shouldn't have happened based on pre-2010 data, and something must have happened in 2010 to cause the drastic switch from death rates that were lowering to death rates that were skyrocketing - though we cannot possibly say what that thing which happened in 2010 might have been."