Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

[TordelBack]

Ugh,  I'm in double post mode today. Would note that Mark Hamill disagrees with one element of Luke's characterisation in TESB, and he says it a lot more forcefully than his TLJ remarks,  which I read as being a calculated attempt to build suspense and anticipation for a bold vision,  in the sense of "even I can't believe what happens to Luke, and I play the guy!", and in the wake of widespread accusations that nothing new happened in TFA.

[SIP]

I would have played luke as an extension of the man he was in the scene in jedi when he threw his lightsabre down in front of the emperor. I didn't need to see him a bitter, defeated man.
He could still be the hero that he was, and willingly come to the aid of Leia and Rey in the fight against the First Order.

He could have been given an epic heroic sacrifice sequence (where he was actually present), similar in spirit to what the end of last jedi was meant to be going for, against overwhelming odds.......and i'm good with him eventually losing that fight , because he's effectively immortal.

You could have achieved the same outcome that the film achieved without beating down and tarnishing a much loved character.

[SIP]

I'm assuming you've seen these countless interviews with Hamill in the run up to Last Jedi TordelBack, that's not a man drumming up publicity........he seemed convincingly despondent with it.

[DrRocka]

I would have had Luke still training his Jedi school, and reaching the crucial moment in their training when they feel the pull of the dark side (similar to the point when he leaves Yoda in ESB), then events elsewhere in the galaxy (featuring Han and Leia, natch) mean he must face a choice; leave his school to possibly tear itself apart (and the ramfications that would have), or go and save the galaxy and his friends. And then we get to see him deal with fallout of his impossible choice. He's a hero, who's screwed either way.

But Disney seldom ring me for plot advice.

[TordelBack]

I'm hardly going to change any minds with this, but I appreciate the discussion greatly: having just read a comment thread where people argued that Children of Men* is an anti-immigration parable because it shows how refugees fucked up Britain, a civilised chat like this seems a precious thing.  So:

He could still be the hero that he was, and willingly come to the aid of Leia and Rey in the fight against the First Order.

But he still had to fail first, and lose his students, for Rey (and him) to be the last hope  So he was always defeated.  And if he had been away trying to learn how to defeat Snoke and Ren, instead of [spoiler]removing himself from the Force[/spoiler], he has to fail at that too, or it invalidates the whole point of Rey (and Finn, and Poe) being the new trilogy's hero(es).  And in the end, [spoiler]he does come willingly back to the fight, knowing that it will kill him whatever happens[/spoiler].

He could have been given an epic heroic sacrifice sequence (where he was actually present), similar in spirit to what the end of last jedi was meant to be going for, against overwhelming odds....

But he did make a[spoiler]n epic, heroic sacrifice, he just did it without violently confronting his nephew (again), his only sister's only child... That's what makes him Luke Skywalker. [/spoiler] He's not a warrior, he never was.  No good comes of using the Force for violence, despite the very best of intentions (see Anakin, see Obi-Wan, see his [spoiler]own failure with Ben[/spoiler]).  He believes [spoiler]the solution is to break the cycle of master and student, to remove himself and his tainted Skywalker legacy from the story, then he realises that this too is arrogance[/spoiler].

Ah what the heck, look: I find Luke's portrayal in TLJ genuinely inspiring, and it makes me love and respect the character more than ever.  If you don't, that's okay, but it is a pity.



*One of the greatest SF movies ever made, IMO.

[Professor Bear]

Can I be curious,  and ask SIP what specifically he would have liked to see Luke do in the film?

Any answer that isn't "suck on space walrus titties like he just doesn't give a fuck" is a lie.

[JOE SOAP]

There are literally HOURS of him talking like this on every chat show, red carpet and press junket that he appeared at. The same negative comments over and over.

If you take the entire interviews maybe it amounts to hours but I don't see it for just extracted quotes, not the ones I've watched. Not that it matters how long it is if interviewers continue to ask him the same question because it's an easy grab.

it's pure speculation, but Disney must have given him a slap on the wrist.

I'll take Hamill at his word(s) –all of them– rather than parse his statements into divergent motivations but Hamill has been expressing 2 sides to this sentiment since he began promoting the film.

I don't think he'd need to make a statement like this if he didn't feel strongly about it – he could've just said nothing.

"I'm really enjoying the conversations about #TheLastJedi both Pro AND Con, "Everyone's entitled to their own opinion-but let me make one thing perfectly clear: Neither Disney or Lucasfilm has ever complained or told me what to say-EVER."

http://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/12/30/mark-hamill-star-wars-the-last-jedi-comments-disney/

[SIP]

I don't see any need for Luke having "failed" at anything. You are arguing from the confines of what has been made, eg. Kylo as lukes nephew. In alternate take on these films, luke could just be happily living out the quiet life, no need for him having to have failed at training new jedi.

If we are sticking to the confines of force awakens, lukes failure only needs to be that Kylo was fundamentally bad so he didn't complete his training. The magnitude of how badly that has panned out could have been a complete mystery to luke as we join him in last jedi.

I've no desire to have your mind changed, nor have you change mine TordelBack, I take no issue with people enjoying the last jedi, I'm glad that people do. I'm only sad that I will never be one of those people as I can't get along with the treatment of the original cast. It's just not the way I wanted it to go for my own continued enjoyment.

Just my opinion.......I will shuffle off now happy that others, as so often happens, do not share it!

[JOE SOAP]

If we are sticking to the confines of force awakens, lukes failure only needs to be that Kylo was fundamentally bad so he didn't complete his training. The magnitude of how badly that has panned out could have been a complete mystery to luke as we join him in last jedi.

That doesn't really sell why he decided to get lost and disappear to an island for several years. Luke needed to have a deeper stake in Ben's fall to make that work.

[TordelBack]

Please don't shuffle off, SIP!  But...

... lukes failure only needs to be that Kylo was fundamentally bad ...

Is there anything in the rest of Star Wars that suggests this is likely? (Even Jabba loved his son!). Once Ben was part of the Skywalker family, he had to have a choice, and as his mentor, Luke had to fail him. That failure [spoiler]being dramatised as a moment of fear and weakness was a reminder that Luke too had (and has) that choice[/spoiler]. A perfectly good Luke is just as boring as a perfectly evil Kylo - or Vader.

[SIP]

Just to sideline the debate, as I know I'm never going to be on the same page with this one, what jars so badly with you about Revenge of the Sith Tordels?

The only real issues for me are that it needs to jam too much in due to wasted time in episodes 1 and 2, anakins conversion is too quick (though I think his motivations are valid), and the younglings thing overstepped. Other than that I think it's decent. McDairmid is great in it too.

[TordelBack]

Oh lordy, I feel like I've written all this so many times over the years, but never let it be said there's finite limit to my bitterness.  There's lots of good stuff in RotS - the opening sequence is a speedy greatest-hits romp, Kashyyyk, Utapau and the various theatres of war look great, there's some nice imagery on Mustafar, Ian McDiarmid never disappoints and his soliloquies are all good, the music is uniformly terrific. 

But once we get into the third act it all turns to shit.  It's like Lucas just remembered that he's supposed to be tying things up, and he hasn't thought at all about how to do it. So he sacrifices any pretence of plot, and just picks up his characters and places them where we find them in ANH.  It's ghastly.  Anakin turns evil because; Palps kills the Jedi Council just so; Padme just dies (and directly contradicts Luke and Leia's sole reference to their mother); Obi-Wan beats Vader (despite his New Powers, whatever those are) because he has the high ground;  Palps has a pre-designed Vader suit just lying about his medical facility; the twins get palmed off to where they have to be, Yoda flies off to Dagobah, the Death Star gets built, Tarkin appears and the droids get left on the Tantive IV with Captain Antilles.  Th universe enters a state of perfect stasis for 19 years until we drop in again for Episode IV.  Was that everything ticked off?  Did we miss anything? No? Good, roll credits.

These were supposed to be stories in their own right, but also ones that showed how things came to be, but instead it turns into pure teleology: there's little or no reason given for any of it, and leaving it to The Clone Wars cartoon to fill in the blanks is utter balls.  Utterly and completely disappointing.

[manwithnoname]

Unlike The Last Jedi, which is a machine-tooled, precision mechanism of coherent story-telling and plotting, which explained everything so well, and slotted right into the previous film's world-building.

[SIP]

So.....you didn't like it then?   

I think anakins reasons are quite strong and I don't have a problem with it. Handled far too rapidly, yes, but his contempt for the councils actions (the jedi really are a bunch of arrogant and dodgy geezers) and the fear of his visions over his wife are just cause.....it's just should have happened over a couple of films.

The high ground thing is very silly.
Padme losing the will to live is silly.

The Vader suit.... .I'm thinking in this society of high technology, it's not really a big stretch to put together that suit on Coruscant during the flight back from Mustafar.

As for Leias memories of her mother.... .from my point of view she's referencing Bail Organas wife in Return of the Jedi, not Padme.  This would explain her memories of her mother compared to Lukes.

The other silly little pieces of slotting characters in where they needed to be, the druids, yoda, the death star, the babies to tattooing, all happen as footnotes to the film over a 5 minute sequence......not a big deal for me, and just an exercise in loose end tying. I just see them as a little epilogue rather than a core part of the film.

What sith also has is artistic creativity and imagination in abundance.

[TordelBack]

Unlike The Last Jedi, which is a machine-tooled, precision mechanism of coherent story-telling and plotting, which explained everything so well, and slotted right into the previous film's world-building.

The Last Jedi deals with the 'mysteries' it inherits head-on, and wrong-foots us with its solutions. Revenge of the Sith just skips from one setup (the Prequels) to another (the OT) without doing anything with its long-standing puzzles. 

How does the Emperor defeat the Jedi Council?  He hit them with his lightsabre.   How did Obi-Wan beat Vader? He hit him with his lightsabre. What happened to Luke and Leia's mother? She just died, and presumably someone else posed as Leia's 'real' mother that she remembers, in addition to her adoptive mother. Why do some Jedi vanish and then appear as ghosts?  Qui-Gon told them how (how?). Did the midichlorians create Anakin? Who cares. It's pure balls.