Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

[manwithnoname]

Yeah, I love how they "wrong-footed" us with that cheap-as-fuck (literally) throw-away visual joke with the lightsaber.

Although no doubt it was to show us that our long-held beliefs in the righteousness of the Jedi Order/ Luke's beatification in the series so far/ whatever are being rightly vast aside for a brave new world of modern story-telling!

And that Canto Blight bit? Capitalism = child slavery and nasty weapons-dealers! AMIRIGHT!?

Fuck yeah, get Finn on some space-camels and wreck the joint, with whatever the fuck that annoying character was called.

Clunky and embarrassing.

She's called ROSE. And while it can be fun to pretend that you don't remember character names, it is also a tactic employed a lot by people who have an agenda deeper than film.criticism.

Rose. Great. I had no idea, possibly because she was a shit character.

I have no idea what the Benicio Del Toro character was called either. But please, don't tell me, or try and read anything into it, because I don't care.

[TordelBack]

You have got to give me the number of that charm school, manwithnoname.

The Last Jedi takes the path of least resistance just like Sith does and resolves every dangling mystery in the easiest possible way.  "Who are Ray's parents?"  Nobody.  "Who is Snoke?"  Nobody.  "Why is Luke in hiding like a coward?"  Because he is.  "Why is Ben evil?"  He just is.

First off, this isn't the final movie in the way Sith was, so not all answers are necessarily on the table.  Second, as you know, many of the faults there lie with the way mysteries were established in TFA with no thought to their solution: I would have expected that with three films to play with, Lucas could have delivered more than Johnson managed with one. 

Specifically in the case of Rey's parents, this is a new and exciting answer in itself - not a secret Disney princess after all, just No-one from Nowhere.  I can't think of a (plausible) answer that is as interesting as that.  In the case of Luke, he's seen himself/his role/the Jedi as the problem and removed himself in the hope of breaking the cycle (although his choice of retreat and hoarding of the Jedi books suggests he was hoping to find another solution): that's an interesting answer too, although not the only possible one.  Snoke is indeed more of an issue, both in himself, and in relation to Ben's fall - I'm hoping this gets some kind of exploration in IX.  But for now, he served a pretty enjoyable dramatic purpose as a red herring, and to develop the theme that Masters are what their students grow beyond.

You're right about my not giving RotS the benefit of the doubt though, and TBH that reluctance probably comes down to one thing: Padme's pointless hand-waved death. Two-and-a-half movies as a brave, determined, pragmatic leader (alongside some truly awful romantic decisions), and the only significant new character in the whole trilogy, then her hubby turns into a monster and she just gives up and dies, with two healthy babies in her arms, even when the one single thing we knew about her going into all this thing was that she lived long enough for Leia to remember her.  That sours everything else for me. It's just lazy bollocks.

I can see all the allegory, I can admire Palpatine's false-flag plan and subversion of the Republic (quite a lot, really: the militarisation of the Jedi leaving them scattered and surrounded by legions of armoured assassins, as well as morally compromised enough that a coup attempt wouldn't have seemed inconceivable: it's clever), I can enjoy the oodles of great design, but ultimately I had all these questions in my head for a quarter century, and the answers turned out to amount to a join-the-dots puzzle. Which may be more my fault than Lucas', but still means it feels very, very empty to me.

[SIP]

I still think the explanation of Leias mother memories are covered in my comments above re ROTS Tordels.

But hell, I know you are a big Star wars fan and I appreciate the rational, considered arguments that you are putting forward. I agree on the padme death....it's complete rubbish, but I can overlook it. The rest of the film largely works for me (I'm easily into the 50-60+ viewings of ROTS).

Last jedi just didn't tick those same boxes with me. It didn't generate any emotions (ROTS generated lots), didn't give me any "wow" moments......it didnt excite me at any point....it just left me flat and incredibly disappointed.

But you're a gent sir, and I'm certain that we can agree to disagree.

[TordelBack]

Would certainly hope that we can, SIP!   

I still think the explanation of Leias mother memories are covered in my comments above re ROTS Tordels.

I have tried to ret-con it in that oh-so-flexible head canon of mine, but I just can't get past this line:

"Leia, do you remember your mother? Your real mother?"

Luke definitely knows from Obi-Wan that Leia is adopted, and from the way the question is framed, from Leia herself too. He asks about her 'real mother' as a lead-in to revealing that this person is also his mother.  I just can't believe he's making some generic point about remembering/not remembering mothers in general: this is a specific mother he's talking about - his. Theirs. Padme.

There's also balance here, suitable to the twin theme: Luke to his uncle and aunt, under Obi-Wan's protection, Leia with her mother, under Bail's.

Incidentally, on Luke's discarding of that bloody lightsaber, well good for him.  What's so special about that thing? Did he ever go looking for it himself?  He'd learnt it wasn't the heirloom of a loving heroic father, but the weapon of a monster.  We know (and maybe Luke knew at this point, given that he'd learned Palpatine was Darth Sidious) that Anakin's original blade was destroyed on Geonosis, that this one was knocked up as a replacement during the Clone Wars, used for mainly chopping up droids and then used to murder Dooku in cold blood, and then a roomful of children.  Yay, a storied blade, the very symbol of the legacy he had come to that island to escape.  Screw that thing.

[Rara Avis]

Went to see the movie again .. got the tracking bit completely arseways.

Thanks to y'all for not tearing me a new one  .. although maybe you did I haven't had time to go back and read through all the posts..

[Dandontdare]

I'm assuming you've seen these countless interviews with Hamill in the run up to Last Jedi TordelBack, that's not a man drumming up publicity........he seemed convincingly despondent with it.

Countless? hardly. I have also seen the one where he says he regrets saying those things and "having seen the movie, I was wrong"

[SIP]

So were being pedantic over a turn of phrase now? Sheesh.

Okay, by countless I meant "a lot".  Well into double figures. I'd hate for the point to become lost in nitpicking over my use of English.

Sadly, I shall be more specific in future. Or we could just discuss the point?

[SIP]

I'm very excited for this one. I'm hoping this is the film that tries something new and takes a few more risks. And the proper return of luke skywalker is what I have been excited about since it was revealed that they were making episode vii.

And, it'll help me forget about Rogue One 😊

Me from earlier on in the thread. Posted as I was previously accused of stating well in advance that I did not want to see The Last Jedi. Far from it.....I've been excited about it for 2 years.

Guess I got the "risks" I was after......though not quite what I had hoped for.

[Dandontdare]

So were being pedantic over a turn of phrase now? Sheesh.

Okay, by countless I meant "a lot".  Well into double figures. I'd hate for the point to become lost in nitpicking over my use of English.

Sadly, I shall be more specific in future. Or we could just discuss the point?

The point was that he said he was wrong and that it was a great movie

[SIP]

And he also made a large number of comments during many interviews that he did not like the direction of the film or the treatment of his character. That was my point. And the quote you have used of mine still stands in the context that it was used.

[Professor Bear]

Mrs Bail Organa WAS her real mother, TB, you insensitive monster.

then her hubby turns into a monster and she just gives up and dies

[TordelBack]

Arf!

Mrs Bail Organa WAS her real mother, TB, you insensitive monster.

I did feel bad when writing that, but let's face it, Luke's the one at fault here.

[Keef Monkey]

And he also made a large number of comments during many interviews that he did not like the direction of the film or the treatment of his character. That was my point. And the quote you have used of mine still stands in the context that it was used.

I've seen a few 'When I read the script I wasn't sure or happy with what they'd done with Luke...' style clips passed around the internet, but in every case they turned out to be edited deceptively. I haven't found one that, on finding the original clip, wasn't followed by a '...but then I realized I was wrong and this was exactly what the story needed' type resolution. Seems like a lot of interviews have been chopped up to serve the narrative.

[sheridan]

then her hubby turns into a monster and she just gives up and dies

What's the thing that looks a bit like a fried egg?

[sheridan]

Would certainly hope that we can, SIP!   

I still think the explanation of Leias mother memories are covered in my comments above re ROTS Tordels.

I have tried to ret-con it in that oh-so-flexible head canon of mine, but I just can't get past this line:

"Leia, do you remember your mother? Your real mother?"

Luke definitely knows from Obi-Wan that Leia is adopted, and from the way the question is framed, from Leia herself too. He asks about her 'real mother' as a lead-in to revealing that this person is also his mother.  I just can't believe he's making some generic point about remembering/not remembering mothers in general: this is a specific mother he's talking about - his. Theirs. Padme.

There's also balance here, suitable to the twin theme: Luke to his uncle and aunt, under Obi-Wan's protection, Leia with her mother, under Bail's.

Yep, I can't get my head into the convoluted gymnastics required for one adopted person to say that line to another adopted person and mean anything other than biological mother, or for the respondee to do likewise.

Incidentally, on Luke's discarding of that bloody lightsaber, well good for him.  What's so special about that thing? Did he ever go looking for it himself?  He'd learnt it wasn't the heirloom of a loving heroic father, but the weapon of a monster.  We know (and maybe Luke knew at this point, given that he'd learned Palpatine was Darth Sidious) that Anakin's original blade was destroyed on Geonosis, that this one was knocked up as a replacement during the Clone Wars, used for mainly chopping up droids and then used to murder Dooku in cold blood, and then a roomful of children.  Yay, a storied blade, the very symbol of the legacy he had come to that island to escape.  Screw that thing.

Yep - everybody in the cinema burst out laughing at that scene when I saw it (haven't seen it again since, but should while it's still running).  Also more than happy that Rey isn't a lost princess / another member of the Skywalker clan - there's far too many chosen ones who inherited their power instead of actually finding their own way in fiction already.