House Characters In Comics

[Magnetica]

If I'm reading this debate right, the major point seems to be that because John Wagner has written so much Dredd, and has inarguably written all the very best Dredds (often along with Alan Grant), we've ended up with a situation in which no one else will ever be able to write a Dredd story that goes down in history as an all-time classic.

Whilst that is probably mostly the case, I don't think that is necessarily absolutely always the case.

For me Trifecta is the most notable exception.

[Sandman1]

If I'm reading this debate right, the major point seems to be that because John Wagner has written so much Dredd, and has inarguably written all the very best Dredds (often along with Alan Grant), we've ended up with a situation in which no one else will ever be able to write a Dredd story that goes down in history as an all-time classic. Although we all dearly hope that John Wagner can and will still manage to do this (speaking personally, I loved Harvey and look forward to the next chapter of that saga!)

As a result, the logic goes, no other writer should bother writing any Dredds as, even though some will be among the top tier of all Dredd stories, none can ever hope to be a true all-time classic.

If there are some unspoken restrictions on what you can and cannot include in a Dredd story, then maybe that could raise a level of deterrence in quite many prospective penmen. Maybe you can dodge that by deviating from the official timeline, use some other non-canon means of implementation, or just write a spectacular piece of narrative.

[Frank]

If I'm reading this debate right, the major point seems to be that because John Wagner has written so much Dredd, and has inarguably written all the very best Dredds (often along with Alan Grant), we've ended up with a situation in which no one else will ever be able to write a Dredd story that goes down in history as an all-time classic.

Whilst that is probably mostly the case, I don't think that is necessarily absolutely always the case. For me Trifecta is the most notable exception.

My understanding of what Julius says is readers are unlikely to accept a major plot development from anyone other than Wagner, so other writers tend to stick to stories that don't drive the larger story of Megacity One forward.

See complaints from readers that we still don't have much idea of an idea how Chaos Day has changed the city or the department. Trifecta seemed like a big story at the time, but it didn't change anything in terms of logistics or character.*

Some writers overcome this by building their own wee cast of characters, who they can kill or redeploy without worrying about stepping on Wagner's size 12s. But nobody's going to write a story that involves killing Beeny or restoring democracy any time soon.

Even though Wagner appears to have given up writing the kind of stories that propel the greater narrative of Megacity One forward.


* Wagner's cast of characters

[Proudhuff]

...and there is a healthy respect for the Big W's jurisdiction, especially after the whole 'Johnnie's dead/ not dead' thing.

[JOE SOAP]

other writers tend to stick to stories that don't drive the larger story of Megacity One forward.

They should try IDW.

[Magnetica]

If I'm reading this debate right, the major point seems to be that because John Wagner has written so much Dredd, and has inarguably written all the very best Dredds (often along with Alan Grant), we've ended up with a situation in which no one else will ever be able to write a Dredd story that goes down in history as an all-time classic.

Whilst that is probably mostly the case, I don't think that is necessarily absolutely always the case. For me Trifecta is the most notable exception.

My understanding of what Julius says is readers are unlikely to accept a major plot development from anyone other than Wagner, so other writers tend to stick to stories that don't drive the larger story of Megacity One forward.

See complaints from readers that we still don't have much idea of an idea how Chaos Day has changed the city or the department. Trifecta seemed like a big story at the time, but it didn't change anything in terms of logistics or character.*

Some writers overcome this by building their own wee cast of characters, who they can kill or redeploy without worrying about stepping on Wagner's size 12s. But nobody's going to write a story that involves killing Beeny or restoring democracy any time soon.

Even though Wagner appears to have given up writing the kind of stories that propel the greater narrative of Megacity One forward.


* Wagner's cast of characters

Yes I'm mostly in agreement with all that, but a story doesn't have to drive the whole thing forward to be a good story. There have been plenty of classics that are self contained.

[Frank]

a story doesn't have to drive the whole thing forward to be a good story

Oh yeah. A certain kind of reader is always going to vote Apocalypse War, but Requiem For A Heavyweight rules in my house.

As I said before, the argument isn't that other writers' stories are no good, or that/Wagner shits gold bricks*

I'm most interested in house characters in general, especially in light of Indigo Prime/Devlin Waugh. They generally result in poor/average stories, and I'm not sure they're morally defensible.

The argument used to be that creators received a higher initial payment in return for surrendering their copyright, but (as Pat Mills's book makes clear) that's no longer the case.

If Tharg's paying page rates that haven't changed in twenty years, no wonder creators either don't want to work for TMO or are reluctant to give him their best work.**


* The Ecstasy and The Satanist are among the worst strips published under the Dredd marque

** In the Future Shock documentary, Ian Edginton admits he thinks twice before submitting an idea he reckons is good enough to sell to other publishers for more money.

[IndigoPrime]

If Tharg's paying page rates that haven't changed in twenty years

... then that's pretty much par for the course for the bulk of the entire publishing industry. I've been writing for various titles and publishers since 2001. Most of them have dropped rates since then. Some have maintained them. But that's what happens in a world of dwindling circulation figures.

[Frank]

If Tharg's paying page rates that haven't changed in twenty years ...

... then that's pretty much par for the course for the bulk of the entire publishing industry ...

I raised the subject as part of my querying the practical and moral case for house characters, not to moan about Tharg being tight.

As I said, the case for publishers requiring creators to surrender copyright used to be that they were free to choose between a higher initial payment/no copyright and lower page rates/owning characters and stories.

In the specific case of 2000ad, continuing to write the characters they created meant typewriter jockeys enjoyed the added bonus of knowing nobody else could touch their darlings.

Now creators who don't fancy seeing their characters speaking with someone else's voice know that will involve accepting what is effectively a year on year pay cut.

From a purely practical perspective, that doesn't seem like a sustainable strategy for retaining or attracting the most talented creators and their best work.*

If Tharg can't afford to oay better page rates, he may have reached the point where offering creators ownership of (or at least a greater stake in the profits generated by) their creation is the only practical way forward (as well as the right thing to do).

Turns out Alan Moore did know the score, all along.


* According to Mills, the practice of selling original art is no longer a nice little bonus for scribblers. When you see artists like MacNeil, Flint, and Davis flogging pages for what everyone agrees are surprisingly low prices, it's because they need a quick sale to subsidise (effectively) dwindling page rates

Mills says this also explains the long gaps between series we've all noticed. Artists have to take on better paying gigs to subsidise working on strips they enjoy and feel attached to

[13school]

If Tharg's paying page rates that haven't changed in twenty years, no wonder creators either don't want to work for TMO or are reluctant to give him their best work.

Just wanted to

a): second that this is the status quo in publishing - having worked as a freelance writer since the 90s for well over a dozen publications, I think maybe one raised freelance rates over the last twenty years, and they promptly halved the amount of work available so it was basically a pay cut. Other publishers might start up offering more money, but the established operators are well aware that they don't need to (and probably can't afford to) raise rates in the current climate - and in my experience the new publishers quickly fall into line with established rates.

b): ask that isn't it often the case that the exchange rate between the UK and USA plays a part in Tharg's ability to hold onto top talent - once the Pound dips everyone starts looking across the Atlantic?

[Frank]

Again, nobody's complaining that Tharg's a skinflint*.

The point is that offering creators a greater share in (and control over) the strips they create might be an incentive Tharg could offer creators (that others don't) which doesn't involve increased financial outlay.**

For example, Mills says*** he earns more from the digital sales of Requiem (in the UK) than he does from royalties on everything he's ever written for the Galaxy's Greatest. That can't be right.


* Pat Mills is, sort of, but I think he's (mostly) kidding himself.

** Obviously this would need to be balanced with any decrease in income

*** I keep on using Mills's book for examples, but he's the only creator prepared to talk about it

[IndigoPrime]

It all depends on the business model. Almost every publication I write for these days makes a lot of money through reuse. I sign over the rights to what I file (although sometimes get the pre-edit rights back after a set period of time). The publisher can then do what it wants. Web articles end up in print. Print articles go online. Articles leap from magazine to bookazine to magazine. On the surface, this looks pretty bad; but without this crossover usage, the work simply wouldn't exist. (Or, as 13school says, publishers simply cut back on commissioned work – although that couldn't happen with Rebellion unless it closed one of its magazines.)

I've no idea how dependent Rebellion's business model is on reuse, but creator-owned properties always add a layer of complexity that hits viability. If Rebellion were to go down this route, there may be no key benefits. And as for the suggestion creators will hold back and go elsewhere – to where, exactly? An awful lot of what's printed in 2000 AD wouldn't get picked up elsewhere, not due to quality, but due to format. (And you might argue: the change the format. Fine. Good luck getting a Future Shock in a US comic. Or even most short-run series that are possible in 2000 AD but might make for a one-shot that disappears without trace elsewhere – if it's taken on at all.) Creators could take a punt at web-first or self-publishing, but, well, that's no road to riches either.

13school: I agree exchange rates certainly play a part. When sterling is weak and dollar rates suddenly look rather tempting, there's natural movement. But then it was interesting recently to see Scarlet Traces sold to Rebellion – a previously creator-owned series. Clearly, the House of Tharg isn't a house of evil.

[Frank]

... as for the suggestion creators will hold back and go elsewhere – to where, exactly?

You're talking about it as if it's a hypothetical scenario.

Al Ewing's gone AWOL, despite - on the evidence of his Mighty Avengers - still really wishing he was writing Dredd, and Rob Williams seems restricted to throwing Tharg the occasional bone at holidays and special anniversaries.*


* Williams contributes fewer episodes to 2000ad than Wagner (who is semiretired) and, crucially, he's not creating any new strips (or continuing his previous creations). He says he wants to do another Dirty Frank with D'Israeli, presumably to finish the character off.

[IndigoPrime]

Brian Bolland went to the US in the 1980s. Ewing/Williams doing the same is no different. 2000 AD has always been a place where people do their thing, and where some of the more established creators head to US publications and stay there. Unless there's compelling evidence giving Rob Williams more creative rights over his 2000 AD output would make the slightest bit of difference, you're the one talking hypothetical scenarios. (As for Al Ewing and Dredd, what's going to change there? It's not like Rebellion's going to offer him a chunk of Dredd in return for writing more episodes.)

[Frank]

Nice talking to you, Indigo Prime.