Just finished reading Dredd and simply had to stop dead. Even after last week's WTF moment, this week takes it up a step. I reckon Flint's perfectly captured the majority of readers' response to Dredd's words to Hershey.
This Dredd looks like it might be shaping up to be a serious game changer. I can't see a way to discuss this without spoiling it for folks but I reckon it needs it.
It's not really a surprise, given the way things have been heading, but still packs quite a punch!
This thread is about this week's prog. If people want to avoid spoilers, then they shouldn't come here until they've read it.
SPOILERS AHOY!
Yeah I deliberately didn't even look at this thread before reading the Prog.
There is only one place to start this week and that is Dredd. Oh my! Yes it has been building for a while now, years in fact. I particularly remember Dredd openly questioning Hersey and her telling him to at least respect the office of the Chief Judge during Trifecta, but for it to come to actual mutiny is still something. I am just surprised she did have him arrested, but I guess she was just so shocked.
Good to see Frank has been brain washed by Smiley rather than being a double agent for him all along.
I certainly get the feeling things won't ever be the same again after this. Forget wiping out half the city, this is shaking Dredd's world to its core.
Everything else in the Prog pales by comparison, but actually there are also fantastic episodes of Brink (but every episode of Brink is fantastic) and Kingdom. Kingdom seems to be now to be accelerating towards its end game. I am in the middle of a complete reread of the whole thing at present and it is really a fantastic series that has added layer upon layer of its world as it has gone along.
Oh yes, almost forgot there is also Skip Tracer and a follow up to a previous Future Shock (Intestinauts are Go!) in the shape of 3Thriller Infestinauts are Go!. It took me a while to stop the difference in the names. Anyway, given the other three strips, these two really failed to make much impression on me this week. Which is possibly a bit unfair on them, but given what they are up against...
Should we take that Dredd scene at face value, or is Dredd just playing Smiley, killing him into a false sense that his plan (whatever it is) is working?
Well if so then Hersey is a good actor. She really seemed to have that sinking feeling in the pit of her stomach. Which was fantastically rendered by Mr Flint, as was the sheer scornfulness of Dredd's delivery.
(https://i.imgur.com/bQuRzEU.jpg)
Quote from: Magnetica on 03 November, 2018, 02:52:50 PM
Yeah I deliberately didn't even look at this thread before reading the Prog.
....
Good to see there is an ulterior motive for Frank's actions.
....
I'm mindful as well of the fact that you can accidentally read this thread through the 'Recent Posts' thread which is why I'm being obtuse.
I'm also wondering if perhaps I'm reading too much into Frank's vision as he stares into the teacup. Wondering about the link to the snowflake.
There's more about the snow in the prog 2105 thread, page 4.
Glad most are enjoying the Dredd, but I find it whizzes above my head and hard to get behind. The basic concept of Smiley raises more questions than it answers (just reading Necropolis this weekend - where was Smiley then, surviving on his rich tea digestives? He is like Moffatt's Clara - a figure whose presence has been inserted into all the previous stories retrospectively - if you can buy into that, fine, but neither concept works for me. Doesn't help that Justice Dept conspiracies are not my cup of (rich) tea. [spoiler] If Smiley has control over Frank, why not (hob) nobble him when he was in Sino-Cit? [/spoiler]
Also cant see the fuss over Skip Tracer, which feels like a slightly more competent, but still dull and cliched mid 90s strip - theres an energy source! When isn't there? All it is proving to me is that MacNeil could draw the phone book and make it look exciting, but I'd rather he was elsewhere employed.
All that said, 3 out of 5 is not bad for a prog, and Brink is the best new thrill in years by far
Yeah, i'm undecided on Dredd.
On the one hand I'm rushing to read each episode, just waiting for the precious bit of exposition thats going to explain just what exactly is going on.
On the other hand I'm just not buying it. Dredd's continuing distrust of Hershey doesnt ring true to me. He's coming across as a bit of a prick.
And the idea that he's acting on hunches and information that haven't been made clear to the reader just makes me feel like this entire run is an extended lesson in dangling carrots.
Hope it wraps up soon, to be honest.
Quote from: Leigh S on 04 November, 2018, 09:26:51 AM
Skip Tracer ... feels like a slightly more competent, but still dull and cliched mid 90s strip
Yeah, but it's the inoffensive
Mambo,
Trash or
RAM Raiders, rather than the godawful
Robohunter reboot or
Fr1day.
Like
Skip Tracer, those stories passed through my eyeballs and out the hole in the back of my head, but I'd rather see Tharg trying something new than demonstrating yet again that ideas have sell-by dates.
[off topic]In fairness, the first Fr1day story was very good.[/off topic]
Skip Tracer isn't great, but it's not 90s rubbish either (the second series that is).
I agree with some of the criticism of The Small House, but I'm confident that it's heading somewhere, and it's already given us some twists and shocks along the way, so it's forgiven. Also I don't think it's entirely unreasonable of the writer to hold some info back and keep us guessing, to create a sense of mystery, as long as it's all explained eventually.
(However if Dredd's magic horse turns up again to save the day, I'll be disappointed. That was the most ridiculous deux ex machina ever.)
Quote from: Richard on 04 November, 2018, 11:18:52 AM
Also I don't think it's entirely unreasonable of the writer to hold some info back and keep us guessing, to create a sense of mystery, as long as it's all explained eventually.
Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't that how mysteries / thrillers work?
BTW I meant to say "I am just surprised (Hershey) she did
n't have him (Dredd) arrested" in my first post.
Quote from: Richard on 04 November, 2018, 11:18:52 AM
Dredd's magic horse ... was the most ridiculous deus ex machina ever
Heurs ex machina.The nineties story
Skip Diver feels most like to me is that series of
Shimura MacNeil drew in black and white. The art was
fantastic (https://i.imgur.com/vYahCKQ.jpg), Robbie Morrison's Ts were all dotted and his Is crossed, but I found myself drifting off as I read each episode.
I suppose
Skip Tracer's only different to the nineties reboots I mentioned above in that the character names and fictional worlds are new, even if the ideas, dramatic scenarios and character types are from
Cash Converters.
Which is why John Smith was so important to
2000ad.
[off topic] War Mach1ne was great fun, but it's a self-contained story. Gibbons condensed the entire original run of Rogue Trooper into one book; confronting Clavell, the bastard responsible for the loss of Fr1day's clone-brothers, was the dramatic equivalent of hunting down the Traitor General.
Gibbo ends the story as if he's perfectly teed up his successor to tell more stories in the world he's created, but what else is there for Fr1day to do, really? Odd jobs? Gibbons, who seems like a diamond geezer and talks more knowledgeably and entertainingly about comics than anyone other than the hairy wizard who refuses to speak to him anymore, sees Rogue as a drifter like Kwai Chang Caine (https://youtu.be/eO02TefMH90), but it appears he's more like Richard Kimble (https://youtu.be/CDb7pligfRA) [off topic]
Quote from: Richard on 04 November, 2018, 11:18:52 AM
(However if Dredd's magic horse turns up again to save the day, I'll be disappointed. That was the most ridiculous deux ex machina ever.)
At last someone mentions that horse again!
I was pretty unimpressed with all that ice creature business but then that horse turning up... that was a bit of a piss take.
The ice theme is clearly part of this story too...if the foam on Smiley's latte is anything to go by...although of course it's tea
Quote from: Frank on 04 November, 2018, 10:44:19 AM
Quote from: Leigh S on 04 November, 2018, 09:26:51 AM
Skip Tracer ... feels like a slightly more competent, but still dull and cliched mid 90s strip
Yeah, but it's the inoffensive Mambo, Trash or RAM Raiders, rather than the godawful Robohunter reboot or Fr1day.
Like Skip Tracer, those stories passed through my eyeballs and out the hole in the back of my head, but I'd rather see Tharg trying something new than demonstrating yet again that ideas have sell-by dates.
I am with Frank on this I would rather have something new than a rehash of the same characters (ABC Warriors of late has been for me the same old story with just a new colour-scheme). I actually like both series of Skip Tracer so far (maybe that is just me)
Quote from: broodblik on 04 November, 2018, 12:39:51 PM
I actually like both series of Skip Tracer so far (maybe that is just me)
Whenever nineties strips like those I mention above get a
Megazine reprint, readers usually say they quite enjoy them.
It's probably due to context; they're middling strips, but they ran at a time when
everything was either middling or worse, so they get lumped in with the general bad feeling towards the era*
The idea that the reason stories caught on in the good old days was that they had long runs, often using more than one artist to achieve this, has been discussed here (https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=39208.0). I'm sure that's occurred to Tharg, too, and
Skip Tracer might be him giving that a go.
* The second series of Skip Tracer probably benefits from running alongside stories that are mostly well received.
I can see that, but ultimately, other reasons these middling stories didnt catch fire:
They didnt have a strong enough hook to build on - mutant bounty hunter / Judge, Jury Executioner / alien freedom fighter etc.
They didnt have a strong enough world to build on
They didnt have enough original material in the first place
I would most prefer new and good stories - If I have to choose one, I'd go for good. Stories like Kingdom and Brink and Defoe all hit the ground running. If by your second tale your NEWLY FOUND PSYCHIC POWERS leave you trapped inside a MINDSCAPE because some SHADY MILITARY ORGANISATION sought the ULTIMATE SOURCE OF POWER. I'm not holding out for the switcheroo that takes that much cliche and turns it into gold
Quote from: Magnetica on 03 November, 2018, 02:52:50 PM
Dredd. I particularly remember Dredd openly questioning Hersey and her telling him to at least respect the office of the Chief Judge during Trifecta...
I've just re-read that episode and it was possibly Hershey's finest hour telling Dredd to wind his neck and with her final words to Dredd on the Kazan Clone report she demands "double spaced"...in Bullet to king 4.
This before she takes a bizzare change of both personality and command of the role of Cheif Judge in anything that Michael Carrol wrote for her...
My progs lost in the post again, so not seen this episode, but I do echo that Rob Williams is the definitive Dredd writer elect, there is personality here (and many clashes), intrigue, tension, twists and all fabulously written. Dredd feels and sounds like Dredd the Judge should do.
I'm just sad that there are more established Dredd world characters leaving us when we have just got to engage with them, there's not many interesting or endearing characters left these days...
The Dredd story was the only real standout in this week's prog. Even Kingdom dropped off a bit with little happening. Skip Tracer continues on. The 3riller didn't grab me and Brink was dull, dull, dull.
[spoiler]This was a masterful episode all round. Frank has at last been shown as a sleeper agent of Smiley and made to do terrible things without his knowledge. The reactions of Dredd's remaining team was superb. Maitland is grief-stricken angry and lashing out at Dredd, Giant is confused, desperate and despairing. But Dredd, his reaction MADE this episode. He never said a word while taking everything in! His face spoke volumes, well done to Flint for conveying this. And then a one sentence reply to Hershey's demands that cut everyone to the quick. I must have spent a couple of minutes just staring at that page, before I could go on. The last page summed up the episode really well. Dredd gets confirmation that it was Frank who killed the clone of the War Marshall, telling Dredd he has lost another ally, another chess piece in his match with Smiley. He now wants to meet up with Smiley, why? What does Dredd have left? He has essentially lost everything. After what he said to Hershey, is he even still a Judge? [/spoiler]
The price of this week's prog was worth it just for Dredd.
I know nothing will change your mind at this stage, but I can't articulate how wrong you are about Brink.
It's one of the most masterful, subtle pieces of work I've seen in the medium, consistently keeping you guessing about everything, even including what genre it is. Culbard's deceptively simple art style is the perfect accomplice to Abnett's calm, measured script. They should be teaching this shit in colleges as an example of what you can do with the medium.
(OTOH, you're completely right about Dredd. This has been coming ever since Dredd strong-armed Hershey on mutant rights with the threat of his resignation only to admit to her, as she was being exiled, that he'd never have gone through with it. The hurt, as brilliantly drawn by MacNeil, felt by Hershey at that revelation broke their relationship irrevocably. Everything since then has been about their respective notions of duty — they've orbited each other, bound by those notions, but are some point that fundamental betrayal of what was a friendship, at least in Hershey's mind, has to blow up in their faces.)
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 05 November, 2018, 11:30:56 PM
(In Tour Of Duty) Dredd strong-armed Hershey on mutant rights with the threat of his resignation only to admit to her, as she was being exiled, that he'd never have gone through with it
Great observation. I'd always thought of that moment as Hershey's disappointment that Dredd wasn't resigning in sympathy/protest at her dismissal, but this characterisation adds another layer.
I saw Al Ewing's line about Dredd
'blackmailing (Hershey) with a badge he'll never hand in' as a reference to Dredd's initial gambit, forcing Hershey to repeal the mutant laws, but this is
much better.
Tying this into a moment of human betrayal - as you say, the moment Hershey realised Dredd didn't view their relationship in the same the way she did - fits his long-established inability not just to do the human thing but to even understand what the human thing to do would be.
And it makes the force of the reaction Ewing ascribed to Hershey - which, at the time, seemed a little out of step with their established dynamic - much more compelling.
Good stuff.(https://i.imgur.com/lzfHgKH.png?2)
(https://i.imgur.com/YiLb3cO.png?4)
Tour Of Duty Part One, Wagner & MacNeil (1650) and Bullet To King Four, by Ewing & Flint (1803)
This is a bloody marvellous prog, especially Brink and Dredd.
Another week another great prog.
Dredd easy beats all other contenders for the title of the week. The way Dredd dismisses Hersey is the point I know that something big will have to change.
Brink is one of these strips which I will rate the best of the year but strangely never the best of the week. This is just one awesome strip.
Skip Tracer I do enjoy and find it amusing that people calls this 90s trash.
(https://i.imgur.com/L1Uq7Vs.png?3)
Fiends Of Clacton Front is funny, but Roxilla's Guide To Writing Comics saw me breaking out the small hotel sewing kit to repair my sides.
My school library had a copy of How To Draw And Sell Comic Strips For Newspapers And Comic Books (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Draw-Sell-Comics-Alan-McKenzie/dp/1581807163)*, which I read and enjoyed. I would not have enjoyed it any less if I had known the author never sold a comic strip to a publisher that did not already employ him (https://comicvine.gamespot.com/alan-mckenzie/4040-53625/) as an editor**
* The title of which has been changed in this more recent edition, both to make it less preposterously unwieldy and to reflect the change in relative fortunes and cultural capital of newspapers and comics. Every Ford Sierra had a Garfield suction-cupped to its window.
** Wry amusement, rather than shade. I've grown to quite like Alan McKenzie (http://marvelsilverage.blogspot.com/2016/09/messing-with-logo-2000ad-interlude.html), although my opinion of his work has not changed. Probably an empathic response to entering the world of work and realising that I was now the guy out of his depth and trying his best to do something at which he was just never going to be much good. Obviously, McKenzie's handling of creators was disastrous, with long-term negative ramifications for the comic, but I would have been able to forgive his decision to write most of the comic himself if he'd been a talented writer.
Quote from: Frank on 07 November, 2018, 09:43:52 AMObviously, McKenzie's handling of creators was disastrous, with long-term negative ramifications for the comic, but I would have been able to forgive his decision to write most of the comic himself if he'd been a talented writer.
What still surprises me is how great Luke Kirby is. It's like it's from a different writer. In another reality, McKenzie would have swallowed his pride and continued writing that strip, rather than saying that as editor, he somehow kept all the rights for himself (dubious), and leading to precisely nothing further being done with the character.
Still, I'm quite happy to not see any more Bradley, Supersurf 13, terrible McKenzie Dredd, Mean Arena, RAM Raiders, and Soul Gun Warrior. (Universal Soldier and Brigand Doom weren't too bad, despite being rather derivative. Lovely mono art by Dave D'Antiquis on Doom, for one.)
Dredd/Hershey - in the tradition of Bennifer, Dreddshey - is interesting. The following assumes Dredd's 'I don't know her (https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2016/12/133546/mariah-carey-i-dont-know-her-meaning)' isn't a ruse to fool Smiley (and the reader).
As we discussed following Chaos Day (https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=35579.msg688962#msg688962), in terms of legal precedent, Fargo Jr may have a point. Since McGruder's resignation, Chief Judges have been elected into office; Hershey was voted out and assumed command by invitation only.
Then again, Griffin and McGruder (twice) were battlefield promotions, too. Silver was a council appointment (https://i.imgur.com/iBLbKRQ.png) and I suppose it would be possible to argue we were just never shown the election process for his predecessors within the strip itself.
At the time, electing a Chief Judge was presented as something crazy old McGruder pulled out her arse*, but I suppose a system ostensibly based on the law places a premium on precedent. The interesting thing is that Hershey's never been elected, or at least she's only been elected in the same manner as Silver - by the Council Of Five**
* 'An election? I don't believe I'm hearing this!' (Parting Shots (https://i.imgur.com/WffFYL0.jpg), Wagner & Ezquerra, 915)
** 'The feeling on the council is I should step up permanently' (Volt Face (https://i.imgur.com/E62UaYe.jpg), Wagner & Wilson, 1167). Caveat to all of the above- 'WE'RE FASCISTS (https://i.imgur.com/h9sic0v.jpg)' (2101).
Haven't even looked inside the prog yet but oh my, covers just do not get any better than that.
Quote from: norton canes on 07 November, 2018, 12:19:10 PM
Haven't even looked inside the prog yet but oh my, covers just do not get any better than that.
In total agreement on the cover, really nice
QuoteHershey's never been elected
She was elected the first time round, in the first episode of
The Cal Legacy in prog 1178.
She wasn't elected the second time, unless she was and we just weren't shown it. Probably not much to show if she ran unopposed.
Quote from: Richard on 07 November, 2018, 03:06:51 PM
QuoteHershey's never been elected
She was elected the first time round, in the first episode of The Cal Legacy in prog 1178. She wasn't elected the second time, unless she was and we just weren't shown it. Probably not much to show if she ran unopposed.
Right you are. How could I forget Jack Loblaw?
Cylinders
In
Droids
And
On
This
Firing
Are
Tharg
His
Prog
All
Rearrange the above to form a sentence that gives my Prog review.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 05 November, 2018, 11:20:17 PM
I know nothing will change your mind at this stage, but I can't articulate how wrong you are about Brink.
It's one of the most masterful, subtle pieces of work I've seen in the medium, consistently keeping you guessing about everything, even including what genre it is. Culbard's deceptively simple art style is the perfect accomplice to Abnett's calm, measured script. They should be teaching this shit in colleges as an example of what you can do with the medium.
That'll do for my prog review: it simply doesn't get better than Brink. Enjoyed everything else, although Skip Tracer and Kingdom have slowed down a bit that's okay too. Just a consistently great comic at the moment.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 08 November, 2018, 01:35:15 PM
Cylinders
In
Droids
And
On
This
Firing
Are
Tharg
His
Prog
All
Rearrange the above to form a sentence that gives my Prog review.
Tharg firing all his cylinders in Droids, and this prog, are on?
Brink has been consistently being one of the best stories that ever graced the pages of 2000AD. This is a story which in my younger days I would not have appreciated but luckily age do have its benefits.
Yeah, I have started a BRINK re-read. Not because I am confused (like I did with say, DEADWORLD or a recent Anderson) but because it has so much to offer.
Isn't Dredd's black horse his equivalent of Frank's snowflake - in effect, the code totem that Smiley's programmed him with? As in, only he can see it? Or am I reading all this wrong?
He physically rode the horse to safety.
Maybe Smiley keeps it in a Small Stable until needed.
This prog sees most of the strips in simmer mode, with three of them approaching their conclusions in 2109 (Brink is of course in permanent simmer mode). You could almost say it's a 2000 AD Simmer Special. Debut 3hriller Infestinauts is the exception, kicking off with a bang. It looks like it has potential. Has it been brought in after the success of Survival Geeks, do we think? Is Tharg making a concerted effort to inject more overtly humorous content into the prog?
Elsewhere the intrigue thickens in Dredd, Brink and Kingdom. The latter strip looks like it might actually be reaching its final conclusion. Will Gene bow out? Or bow-wow out?
I'm here all week.
Quote from: norton canes on 09 November, 2018, 11:51:19 AM
You could almost say it's a 2000 AD Simmer Special.... Will Gene bow out? Or bow-wow out?
Taxi for Canes! I've got your coat.
Quote from: Dandontdare on 09 November, 2018, 12:16:14 PM
Quote from: norton canes on 09 November, 2018, 11:51:19 AM
You could almost say it's a 2000 AD Simmer Special.... Will Gene bow out? Or bow-wow out?
Taxi for Canes! I've got your coat.
I'm sorry sir, it seems Mr. Canes had already been bundled into another taxi 5 minutes earlier.
Quote from: norton canes on 09 November, 2018, 11:51:19 AM
You could almost say it's a 2000 AD Simmer Special.
So very late to the party this week as my sub didn't arrive yet and I got impatient and rather than wait for my copy to arrive I popped to WH Smiths today and picked one up.
So the big change this week is 3riller - Infestinauts Are Go! in for Fiends, now last week I discussed how a bit of balance and variety makes the truely perfect prog and this change gives us that. Infestinauts is a fun quirky little thing which has a nice fresh different tone... however what it also proves is variety alone doesn't trump quality and while I enjoyed it its just not as good as fiends and as such this weeks Prog has an uphill battle.
Mind it ably supported Kingdom and Brink remain very very best Tharg has to offer and Skip Tracer remains the thrill its turned into and great fun.
Dredd of course adds more and more big moments and small clues. By George (and we're past spoilers now right... Hershey's reaction to Dredd's proclimation is just delivered perfectly - just great comics. This story has a lot to cover in its last three parts, but man its going to be fun finding out how its going to do that.
So what was good remains very, very good. The swap however drops the quality just a notch. So we're down from the very very best Tharg has very given us to just a very very great Prog... times are hard its like the 90s all over again...
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 08 November, 2018, 01:35:15 PM
Cylinders
In
Droids
And
On
This
Firing
Are
Tharg
His
Prog
All
Rearrange the above to form a sentence that gives my Prog review.
All droids in cylinders are firing on Tharg and this, his Prog!
Well, as far as I'm concerned, that's an all-time-great moment in Dredd history.
However, I've been viewing this apparent distrust of Hershey as a ploy on Dredd's part to protect her. Being seen as a friend of Dredd is not always healthy and he'd rather keep someone he does trust in such an important position. But Prog 2107 may have proved me wrong already, so I'm avoiding that thread.
Regards,
Robin
Yup, sounds good to me - by publicly rejecting her authority he establishes her as completely blameless in whatever subsequent actions he takes. He also reduces her value to Smiley as leverage against him. And if it does turn out that she's conniving with Smiley/the assassins (unlikely), he's started the ball rolling for her removal (does anyone ever survive ignoring Dredd's advice? Well, Francisco, I suppose, but not unscathed... ). Potentially a surprisingly deep play from I-just-hit-things-until-they-break.
Quote from: TordelBack on 11 November, 2018, 01:52:59 PMPotentially a surprisingly deep play from I-just-hit-things-until-they-break.
Yes, but it would play nicely against Smiley's condescending observation, " But you are not a strategist, Joseph. You never were. Never one step ahead... and I say that with the greatest respect".
I think Dredd realised back in Trifecta what he was up against and has upped his game. At least that's what I'm hoping.
Regards,
Robin
Quote from: Geoff on 04 November, 2018, 12:31:09 PM
Quote from: Richard on 04 November, 2018, 11:18:52 AM
(However if Dredd's magic horse turns up again to save the day, I'll be disappointed. That was the most ridiculous deux ex machina ever.)
At last someone mentions that horse again!
I was pretty unimpressed with all that ice creature business but then that horse turning up... that was a bit of a piss take.
The ice theme is clearly part of this story too...if the foam on Smiley's latte is anything to go by...although of course it's tea
Titan and Enceladus are Rob Williams doing 80s action hero dredd. Titan starts off like aliens or predator and ends up a prison exploitation flick. Enceladus is The Thing. As such a horse turning up is completely en point.
I thought those strips were the best Dredd in years - certainly since Trifecta. And good to note how Enceladus focuses on Dredd saving the chief judge at the risk to his own life to now he's done with her. All of which Williams has gently seeded over the recent years. Fantastic stuff. And this run is really blowing it all out of the water too. Love it. Hope it goes on for 20 more weeks.