Star Wars Episode 7 and Disney buy Lucas Film

[radiator]

Good points all, TB.

I don't even want to hear that 'Star Wars movies all have weak plots', cause they bloody well don't. As far as I can recall, there's a bit of timeline fudge in Empire (where Luke's training seems to take about three days) and RotJ is arguably a bit disjointed, but other than that they are sound as a pound. Everything you need to know to understand the film is in the film. You're never once confused. Character motivations make sense. Giant coincidences and contrivances you have to swallow are kept to a minimum. When you pick them apart on a script and story level, they hold up very well indeed.

By comparison, there are gaping plot holes and some really weak storytelling in TFA, most of which are apparent on first viewing, and that's a real shame. All the more baffling because they are so blatant and easily fixable you'd think someone somewhere along the way would have pointed them out. All in all, it feels like a film that needed another six months to a year of production, but ultimately Disney need to make their investment back, and I get it.

It's exactly like Star Trek 2009. There's no denying the immense fun you had at the cinema, it's exciting and the characters are wonderfully cast and have great chemistry, but nagging doubts gradually unravel it the more you ponder them.

But the stuff they got right, they got right in a way that exceeded my highest expectations.

[TordelBack]

Well yeah. I'll be seeing it again over Christmas, at least once, and really I should probably  be reserving judgement until then. It's definitely a Star Wars movie, and it's not the worst one. But it's also definitely the least original one.

Don't think I've mentioned what a good hero Oscar Isaacs makes. Instantly likeable guy, Poe - you can see what Leia sees in him.

[HdE]

Went to see it last night loved it.[spoiler]until it broke my bloody heart.its just a flesh wound right.i hate you JJ you murdering bastard.[/spoiler]

Actually, knowing full well what you're alluding to, this right here is the very reason I have absolutely zero interest in seeing the movie.

(Going to spoiler tag the rest of my post just so I can pontificate a bit more freely. No actual spoilers, but heavy hints - so if you cant stand temptation, don't click the black bars!)

Being lukewarm about this film from a ways out, I went ahead and checked the plot synopsis on Wikipedia out of curiosity. [spoiler] It pretty much confirmed something I'd feared might happen since the first teaser footage broke.

Let me be clear: I'm pleased that the movie is going down well with fans. I'm pleased that most of the people this is for seem to be enjoying it. But it feels like it's not for me anymore. I just can't get past this particular thing that happens in it. And knowing it's in thre, I just don't want to see the film.

I don't care how well it's done, or if that moment services the movie's plot well or not. It's an indicator that the movie and Star Wars in general has moved in a direction I don't care for. It's crossed a line for me. I know there's been stuff *like* this in the movies before, but... nah. These are beloved and iconic characters. So this time I feel it went too far. 
[/spoiler]

[TordelBack]

HdE, I think that the thing you refer to was inevitable [spoiler]once the decision was made to include the original trio,simply because you have to destroy all they've achieved, and then get rid of them.[/spoiler], and it's been my main beef with the sequels project from the start. However, given that this is the route we've taken, it's done extraordinarily well - [spoiler]in many ways this is that character's movie from the moment he appears and the actor has seldom been better, far better than he was in Jedi. I still wish the sequels had avoided the old cast completely,except for the droids and Luke's force ghost, but seeing as they didn't, it couldn't have been handled much better than this.[/spoiler]

[HdE]

Tordels, - that's a really excellent and eloquent response to my post. I halfway expect a response when I air my viewpoint of 'suck it up and deal with it', so the reasoned way you engaged with it is appreciated!

HdE, I think that the thing you refer to was inevitable [spoiler]once the decision was made to include the original trio,simply because you have to destroy all they've achieved, and then get rid of them.[/spoiler],

I'm going to spoiler tag my response again for similar reasons to last time and then walk away from this thread for a bit - I don't want to derail it or pre-empt discussion of spoilery details when some folks are still days / weeks away from seeing the film, after all. BUT...

[spoiler]What I'd say back to your remarks is that I agree part way on the point that 'you have to destroy everything they achieved'. But I disgaree very strongly with the idea that then you have to 'get rid of them'. Nowhere in the Big Book Of How To Do Fiction More Gooder is it written that this is necessary.

Here's my thinking: Doing both doesn't actually equate to story progression, in my opinion. It just clears the board to start over from fresh. And if that's the aim of the movie, then it doesn't need the previous cast at all.

I personally think it's much more intersting if you say 'Okay - here's where we were, and something has gone awry. But there are certain legacies left over from what came before, and they inform what happens next.'

The decision to feature or not feature characters we already know, from that point, is kind of moot. They can add something to the ongoing story, definitely. And I think it's a potentially intriguing idea to mix the old guard in with the new.

But you have to touch on the older material respectfully. And I think it's a bad idea to impact too much on things that fans enjoy and have enjoyed for decades. In the case of what I'm talking about here... it may indeed work very well, as I said. It's just that, as someone who used to be a big fan (but cooled off considerably in later life) and who still loves the character in question - this is the important part - I personally don't want to see that.

And that's about as simple as the issue gets for me.

Just one of my buttons, I guess.
[/spoiler]

[radiator]

However, given that this is the route we've taken, it's done extraordinarily well

Yeah, [spoiler]it's done.... tastefully.[/spoiler]

And it's worth remembering that it's something [spoiler]the actor in question has actively been lobbying for since IIRC Empire Strikes Back (and definitely in RotJ). So in that respect it feels like the character finally coming full circle. It's absolutely fine.[/spoiler]

Frankly, it's also the best work he has done in about 25 years.

I had many issues with the movie, but this wasn't one of them. It's kind of a great moment. And fitting.

[Hawkmumbler]

Didn't surprise me in the slightest [[spoiler]]and is a fine send off for Han Solo.[[/spoiler][spoiler]]

[Hawkmumbler]

DELETE THAT LAST POST AGAGAGAGAGAAAAAAAAGGGGHHHHH NNNNOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Didn't surprise me in the slightest [spoiler]and is a fine send off for Han Solo.[/spoiler]

[radiator]

There's also some quite breathtakingly bald-faced exposition-dump dialogue in this film, with characters literally recapping what they've been doing the last few years to each others faces in a way that no one ever does in real life.

Character a: "As you know, this happened to us, so you did this. And ever since then, I've been doing this.".

Character b: "Yes, I know, and as you know, because you did that, I did this."

It's pretty bad, especially as some of the other character work is fairly subtle.

[IndigoPrime]

Having not seen the film yet, I've tried to adjust the broken post blind (seriously), and so if it's not right, let me know via PM, or flag the mods again.

[TordelBack]

Having not seen the film yet, I've tried to adjust the broken post blind (seriously), ...

Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them.  Stretch out with your feelings!  You see? You can do it.

[Hawkmumbler]

I am so, so sorry guys! I truly am, here, have a million like's (using our none existant like system) as way of apology. 

[ThryllSeekyr]

[spoiler]NOw that cats well n truly out of the bag. You think thee might have held off doing that until the third film.

I think he's that much of big deal or maybe they going us the next two films to kill off Luke and Leia.

One death for each film....

Still don't like that and remember reading about the expanded universe's Chewie being killed off saving the lives of Han's children and I think this was after the M. Falcon had been destroyed as well. [/spoiler]

[HdE]

Just going to make a comment back on radiator's point here:

Yeah, [spoiler]it's done.... tastefully.[/spoiler]
And it's worth remembering that it's something [spoiler]the actor in question has actively been lobbying for since IIRC Empire Strikes Back (and definitely in RotJ). So in that respect it feels like the character finally coming full circle. It's absolutely fine.[/spoiler]

And, invoking spoiler tags again to speak freely about this:

[spoiler] No disrespect intended here, Radiator - but I don't see how an actor's wanting to do a certain thing with a character equates to the character coming full circle. I don't see that it has any bearing on the narrative at all, really. An actor wants their character to snuff it? Thats nice. Now what about what the fans who enjoy that character want? To my way of thinking, that's what really counts.

Bottom line, the way I see it is that some characters should never bite it. And I'm royally sick and tired of the tactic of killing characters off to somehow manufacture excitement and tension. It's not my idea of good entertainment. And it characterizes Abrams' work at its worst, in my opinion - one reason why I was a bit disappointed to see Star Wars entrusted to him.

None of the above should invalidate your opinion or anyone else's though. I'm just explaining why, as much as this stuff may be okay for some viewers, it's really, really not okay for others.
[/spoiler]

And that's it! I'm outta the thread now like I said I would be.

Have fun at the cinema, peepholes!

[radiator]

I'm just going to say that [spoiler]the notion didn't only come from Ford, and was famously part of the original 'dark' script treatment for RotJ, which featured Han dying halfway through and Luke walking off into the sunset at the end.[/spoiler]