The Political Thread

[Robert Frazer]

It also serves to undermine the pernicious chest-beating effects of the nation state

It hasn't done anything of the sort, just kicked it up a level from the national to the "larger more exciting" continental, except that the European brand of swaggering self-absorbed arrogance tends to be parcelled with an inferiority complex about the other, bigger continental power - America. As for "ideas of dominance and militarism", hundreds of thousands of people have already been killed to date in modern wars waged by EU member states... and it looks set to continue. We already have EUFOR operations in the Balkans and Africa, the EADS defence conglomerate and movements towards a "Common Security and Defence Policy" specified in the Lisbon Treaty, so I wonder how long it will be until 'rationalisation and integration' create a military not only obfuscated by the EU's shoddy accountability, but also with the pooled resources that will only enable and encourage foreign invasions.

A quick wikiquote:

"The Petersberg tasks, which outline the duties of the European Rapid Reaction Force, have been expanded from humanitarian, rescue, and peacekeeping and peacemaking to include 'joint disarmament operation', 'military advice and assistance tasks' and 'post-conflict stabilisation'. It also states that, "all these tasks may contribute to the fight against terrorism, including by supporting third countries in combating terrorism in their territories."

That pretty much describes the "police action" of Vietnam.

[The Legendary Shark]

'Peace' in Europe was maintained by several means both overt and covert. See, for example, Operation Gladio - to which numerous analogous 'terrorost attacks' in modern Europe are entirely similar. This kind of thing (which, of course, does not go on any more because modern Europeans are entirely different to the Europeans of sixty years ago and no longer conspire for political or corporate goals) is designed to maintain peace (although a better word would be 'order') through tension.

[Old Tankie]

I laugh at the idea that the EU makes the world a safer place, many of its nations have been involved in the two Gulf wars and Afghanistan?  Hardly peacemakers!

How could a war in Europe be a civil war?  It's not a country (yet)!!

[TordelBack]

As for "ideas of dominance and militarism", hundreds of thousands of people have already been killed to date in modern wars waged by EU member states... and it looks set to continue.

Please point to the part of my post where I say that any of these things have been eliminated, or make any claims whatsoever for anything other than the unbelievable reduction of conflict within Western Europe, by contrast with the preceding millennia of almost endless war in the same area.  How member states act outside the EU, and how the EU presents itself on a world stage is an entirely different issue to the one I was address: to wit, peace in Western Europe in explicit response to this:

The EU has done diddly-squat to maintain peace in Western Europe.

My case, such as it is, would be that this is at least a step on the road to co-operative internationalism - it is far harder to go to war with people you are actively working with, and with whom you have mutual economic and political interests.  The concept of the racially unified nation-state uber alles takes a beating when people are born and educated in one country, work, pay taxes and raise a family in another, but can still vote in both local government elections and the elections of the wider EU, and return home or to any other state within that area at any time.

How could a war in Europe be a civil war?  It's not a country (yet)!!

Tankie, we seldom agree on much, but do me the favour of citing my remarks in some sort of context:

For those of us who embrace the ideas of free trade and free movement, any European war would be a Civil War...

i.e. a war between elements within what is perceived as one body.

[Old Tankie]

Fair point, TB, that'll teach me not to "skip-read"!!  Although I am surprised you don't think we agree on much.   

[Frank]

Is it really a revelation to any rational adult that, like people, no institution is either entirely good or evil, and that they need watching like hawks to make sure they aren't getting themselves into mischief?

Smilies should be banned.

Like wanking, they lead to greater evils. Also, how about a moratorium on posts that start with phrases such as What you don't seem to understand ..., or You obviously aren't aware that ... It's safe to assume that, like you, everyone else has read a couple of books and takes a look at the papers every now and then.

[TordelBack]

Although I am surprised you don't think we agree on much.   

Other than our undying love, I meant.  Silly.

[The Prodigal]

The EU has done diddly-squat to maintain peace in Western Europe.

Except by making internal conflict undesirable and unprofitable through a shared economic and political base, and to many of us, simply inconceivable. It also serves to undermine the pernicious chest-beating effects of the nation state by offering a larger more exciting identity as a European, with our local and cultural identities intact but not necessarily tied to ideas of dominance and militarism.  For those of us who embrace the ideas of free trade and free movement, any European war would be a Civil War, and I think everyone agrees that one or two of those each was quite enough.

This.

[Frank]

'Peace' in Europe was maintained by several means both overt and covert. See, for example, Operation Gladio - to which numerous analogous 'terrorost attacks' in modern Europe are entirely similar. This kind of thing (which, of course, does not go on any more because modern Europeans are entirely different to the Europeans of sixty years ago and no longer conspire for political or corporate goals) is designed to maintain peace (although a better word would be 'order') through tension.

Cheers, Shark. I knew the US (et al) hung around in Italy for far too long, on the premise of Commie-busting, but the preparations made to resist Soviet invasion and subversion in the UK under the umbrella of Gladio was news to me. It's the perfect example of mission creep, and how the granting of powers which might just be deemed appropriate and proportionate in times of peril is often impossible to rescind in later times.

While I don't share American survivalist and Tea Party analyses of geopolitics, it's difficult not to share their unease at the United Nations' ability to waltz into other peoples' countries and tell them what to do at gunpoint. It's perfectly possible to see how an organisation that was set up to do good and ensure peace could end up being a tool of oppression unless its subject to scrutiny and censure by some kind of countervaling independent body.

Just in case this sounds like paranoia about what dirty foreigners get up to, here's Ian Cobain talking about Cruel Brittania, his very fair and nuanced study of the British government's use of torture in the fight against terror since WWII to the present day, and from the heart of London to Kenya to Northern Ireland and to Iraq. He starts with the observation that those who argue torture doesn't work are mistaken, which you wouldn't expect from a Guardian journalist:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01nkwxc/Start_the_Week_Torture_terrorism_and_secrets/

[Gonk]

Like wanking, they lead to greater evils. Also, how about a moratorium on posts that start with phrases such as What you don't seem to understand ..., or You obviously aren't aware that ... It's safe to assume that, like you, everyone else has read a couple of books and takes a look at the papers every now and then.

Maybe we should try to be a little less blase over the ability to be able to read books and newspapers; after all, in some countries and/or certain periods of history, this seemingly innocent pastime would have got you locked up in prison or worse.
Having said that though, I believe anyone with a set of Gary Glitter albums ought to be locked up or worse.

....better say something vaguely political....er..it's obvious that the current brand of political choices available in the west are entirely hegemonic in character, in the Gramanscian sense of the word, and that everyone really knows that true power belongs to the faceless,monolithic corporations that control the media and consumer utilities...um..blah blah...er..something else about the Arabs and the Jews and American demand for oil..

[Spikes]

Cheers, Shark. I knew the US (et al) hung around in Italy for far too long, on the premise of Commie-busting, but the preparations made to resist Soviet invasion and subversion in the UK under the umbrella of Gladio was news to me.

And to me. Made for interesting reading.
Following that link, and as a fan of 'what if' fiction, im curious to read that The Third World War: The Untold Story book, now.

[Colin MacNeil]

Official UK Government document re an independent Scotland and the EU.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmfaff/writev/643/m05.htm

[The Legendary Shark]

Jovus. Trust the bureaucrats to take a perfectly simple idea like 'freedom' and complicate the Hell out of it like that.

[The Prodigal]

Cheers, Shark. I knew the US (et al) hung around in Italy for far too long, on the premise of Commie-busting, but the preparations made to resist Soviet invasion and subversion in the UK under the umbrella of Gladio was news to me.

And to me. Made for interesting reading.
Following that link, and as a fan of 'what if' fiction, im curious to read that The Third World War: The Untold Story book, now.

I remember reading that one back when it was first published.

[TordelBack]

See, for example, Operation Gladio - to which numerous analogous 'terrorost attacks' in modern Europe are entirely similar ... designed to maintain peace (although a better word would be 'order') through tension.

Cor, that is an interesting specific can of worms I've never peeked into.  Cheers, TLS!