2000 AD Online Forum

General Chat => Film & TV => Topic started by: Greg M. on 13 October, 2017, 05:57:57 PM

Title: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Greg M. on 13 October, 2017, 05:57:57 PM
"Playing soft rock? That's never the right thing to do!"

The Boys from the Dwarf return in 'Cured', an episode which has all the strengths and all the flaws of the series XI episodes - not too surprising, given XI and XII were all shot at the same time.  On the plus side - feels like classic Dwarf, Cat is up-front and centre, and Lister jamming with you-know-who is going to be hard to forget. On the other hand, it starts to unravel in the later stages and has one of show's now-patented super-abrupt endings. (Feels like it needs a closing speech from Lister on the subject of evil, in the manner of his closing monologue in 'Justice'.)

Still great fun though, and on balance more plus than minus - I liked it better than XI's opener.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: von Boom on 13 October, 2017, 06:08:51 PM
It was a good opener. Hitler if fucking metal?! \m/ When Hitler threw the devil horns I was eating and choked I was laughing so hard. The Happy Wanderer section was priceless.

I think this could be a very, very good series.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Adrian Bamforth on 13 October, 2017, 10:29:44 PM
Would have preferred it if they had said:

"Why haven't they reconstructed Hitler?"
"Too soon."
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: sheridan on 14 October, 2017, 11:30:47 AM
Quote from: von Boom on 13 October, 2017, 06:08:51 PM
It was a good opener. Hitler if fucking metal?! \m/ When Hitler threw the devil horns I was eating and choked I was laughing so hard. The Happy Wanderer section was priceless.

I think this could be a very, very good series.

He reminded me of Hitler from Preacher...
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: CrazyFoxMachine on 15 October, 2017, 11:46:49 AM
Quote from: Greg M. on 13 October, 2017, 05:57:57 PM
On the other hand, it starts to unravel in the later stages and has one of show's now-patented super-abrupt endings.

Good consensus generally I'd agree with it - still ambling along pleasantly with enough laughs and inventiveness to keep it from being depressing but yeah, again the major issue tends to be structuring. Cured was a solid enough episode but rather predictable. [spoiler]We figured it was the scientist who was evil from when he first appeared.[/spoiler]

I must say though - we did manage to watch the second one already and it's genuinely a belter! [spoiler]Surprisingly had a solid ending scene as well![/spoiler]
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: von Boom on 15 October, 2017, 03:04:36 PM
Quote from: CrazyFoxMachine on 15 October, 2017, 11:46:49 AM
Quote from: Greg M. on 13 October, 2017, 05:57:57 PM
On the other hand, it starts to unravel in the later stages and has one of show's now-patented super-abrupt endings.

Good consensus generally I'd agree with it - still ambling along pleasantly with enough laughs and inventiveness to keep it from being depressing but yeah, again the major issue tends to be structuring. Cured was a solid enough episode but rather predictable. [spoiler]We figured it was the scientist who was evil from when he first appeared.[/spoiler]

I must say though - we did manage to watch the second one already and it's genuinely a belter! [spoiler]Surprisingly had a solid ending scene as well![/spoiler]

The second episode starts really strong and stays there pretty much. Really enjoyable.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 15 October, 2017, 04:40:56 PM
Agree that the first two episodes of XII were both pretty good.

So far this series seems to be stronger than XI, which I found to be a bit too much like a greatest hits remix album.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: James Stacey on 18 October, 2017, 09:38:15 AM
Enjoyed the first ep more than the xi series. I'd like them to explore more the concept that 3 million years have passed rather than always be a 2x00C ship/research base but I understand budget and ascetic are against them there. It was a core concept of the first season and has been largely forgotten since then :) My only gripe is [spoiler]Why must every episode have a ship/base that has been there for millions of years suddenly be destroyed within hours of the small rouge one appearing? [/spoiler] If there are some knowing nods to it or it becomes an episode plot point, all good. Otherwise its a lazy motivator (which wasn't even needed in the last episode for any good reason).
Loads of fun though, really glad its still kicking ass all these years later.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Greg M. on 20 October, 2017, 11:33:04 AM
Not sure what to make of 'Siliconia'. (Yes, I waited a week to watch it.) I thought it started brilliantly - the opening set of gags featuring Kryten being harassed were great, particularly the bit with Lister, which was the comedy highlight of the episode. As it went on, I felt that (yet again) too much was being crammed in - but you certainly can't fault Doug Naylor for ambition. However, I didn't like [spoiler]the Deus Ex Machina ending at all, however good the sfx were.[/spoiler] Interesting that Craig Charles - the best actor in the programme - made least impact as a mechanoid. Maybe acting through that outfit requires a broader style such as that employed by Chris and Danny.

And as for the continuity call-backs - that must be the most any episode's ever indulged in. Lister's spaceborne guitar makes this kind of a sequel to 'Fathers and Suns' (why didn't he just borrow one of Hitler's guitars from the last episode?), but we had fan-pleasing references to Kryten's ability to lie, The Om Song and even a brief "Smee-hee!"

Overall? Not quite there, but a noble attempt, and with enough to recommend it. I suspect the back-end of this series is going to turn out to be the best, as that's where the Rimmer-centric episodes seem to be lurking.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 20 October, 2017, 11:56:40 AM
Aye, an awful lot to like but a fair few bits that didn't quite work.

Loved all the continuity callbacks, and the episode looked fantastic - but so much about the mechanoids (and Siliconia especially) were just not explained properly. Best thing about it for me was (small surprise) Rimmer's story; finding peace and contentment in servitude was a fascinating way to take the character, but it was a subplot that went absolutely nowhere. Still, a success overall. Think I prefer Series XI to XII so far, though...
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Greg M. on 20 October, 2017, 12:11:19 PM
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 20 October, 2017, 11:56:40 AM
Best thing about it for me was (small surprise) Rimmer's story

Agreed - Rimmer's been well-served by the Dave era. We've gotten a lot of insight into different facets of his character, as well as a fair bit of development. (Series X's 'The Beginning' remains the high point of contemporary Dwarf.)
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: von Boom on 20 October, 2017, 12:26:24 PM
[spoiler]7.6 mm thinner, 10 grams lighter, and that cool matte finish (so cool)[/spoiler]. That was one of the highlights for me.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: JamesC on 20 October, 2017, 12:36:53 PM
I loved the 'left turn only' stuff.
Chris Barrie's Kryten impression was brilliant.
The MILF's support group was hilarious and I was greatly amused by the whole 'beret and shades' look.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Keef Monkey on 20 October, 2017, 02:31:09 PM
Yeah, the left turn gag got the biggest laugh in our living room too. Was another okay episode, interesting to see some comments that it's an improvement on series XI, because we found that to be really top drawer vintage Dwarf right from the get-go, and while I'm enjoying this season a lot it isn't hitting the mark for me yet the way XI did.

Still decent Dwarf though, still enjoying it and still think it's great that it's still going and isn't bad.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Greg M. on 20 October, 2017, 02:35:49 PM
Just realised I missed one of the cleverest continuity callbacks of all - [spoiler]Rimmer's childhood desire to be a carefree fish is a reference to his "I am a fish!" Astro-navigation exam attempt, mentioned in the very first episode of Red Dwarf, hinting that, subconsciously, he doesn't really want to be an officer at all. [/spoiler]That's a great bit of writing from Naylor.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Mardroid on 22 October, 2017, 07:47:25 AM
While I didn't think the latest episode (the rather misnamed 'Time Wave') was as awful as some make out, (not here, as I'm the first to mention this episode on this thread. I confess I copied and posted this review from another website I frequent, as I couldn't be bothered typing it all again) I didn't like it very much. It started promising, and the ideas were good, but[spoiler] I found the overly camp officer in the flamboyant costume really annoying. (Curiously, I did find camp Hitler a couple of episodes back funny, though,[/spoiler] but I do that the over-the-top acting of certain guest stars* are a detriment to the show**.)

That is actually two episodes of Red Dwarf I'm not keen on, which is unusual for me. While I found stuff I dislike in various episode, my take has generally been rather positive. That includes the derided series like Series VII (which I like a lot) and Series VIII (possibly the weakest series for me, but again I largely enjoy it... but some of it really dragged) . Some of the stuff in Siliconia was very funny, to be fair, and I think it is an episode that will grow on me, but it is a bit worrying to have watched two episodes in a row that I'm not keen on.

Then again, in the end it's only two episodes. I did read in a review (which I can annoyingly no longer find) that 'things improve' for the next episode, albeit these things are obviously subjective.

I'll admit I'm a bit tired of 'new station/ship of the week' episodes, although historically those were episodes I have favoured in the past, as I like Red Dwarf with a bit of adventure and a smidging of horror. I think the issue here, really is that we have had three in a row. The synopses of the next episodes suggest things will change, but I wonder if they should have changed the ordering a bit to mix things up.

I think I will rewatch these episodes soon and see if my experience improves. I hope so. While I'm a bit disappointed in Series XII so far, I am not without hope.

*Johnny Vegas and James Buckley were fine last episode. [spoiler]I did find the leader of the Mechanoid resistance a bit irritating though.[/spoiler]

**I largely really loved Series X: The Beginning, for example, but found certain guest characters a bit too silly. Thankfully the rest of the episode was largely great, that they didn't drag it down too much. I think maybe I preferred it when secondary characters were largely played straight. That's not to say that was always the case even in Old Dwarf however - Confidence, in Confidence and Paranoia for example, but it says something that is one of my most disliked episodes of Red Dwarf. Some might say the same for Meltdown with the Caricature wax-droids, but in their case it didn't really bother me, possibly because being a caricature, was their point.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 22 October, 2017, 10:01:04 AM
Quote from: Mardroid on 22 October, 2017, 07:47:25 AM
I largely really loved Series X: The Beginning, for example, but found certain guest characters a bit too silly. Thankfully the rest of the episode was largely great, that they didn't drag it down too much. I think maybe I preferred it when secondary characters were largely played straight.

For me there's always an inverse law at work with Red Dwarf - the bigger the guest cast, the less I enjoy the episode. Didn't really like the series XI opener 'Twentica' much, either - all a bit silly and cariacature-like. 'Meltdown' is the exception - always loved that one!
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Mardroid on 22 October, 2017, 10:25:49 AM
I really like Meltdown too. Curiously, it's one of the more disliked episodes of the original run by fans, though.

Concerning Twentica, I liked it, but I agree with your assessment there concerning the silliness of the other characters.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Greg M. on 22 October, 2017, 10:28:27 AM
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 22 October, 2017, 10:01:04 AM
For me there's always an inverse law at work with Red Dwarf - the bigger the guest cast, the less I enjoy the episode.

Your favourite episode is 'Marooned'.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 22 October, 2017, 10:30:27 AM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: edgeworthy on 23 October, 2017, 09:19:59 PM
More importantly what exactly is the recipe for "Sugar Puff" Sandwiches?
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 26 October, 2017, 09:35:23 PM
Oh, ye Gods. That was just painful. Probably my least favourite episode ever.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Greg M. on 26 October, 2017, 10:10:05 PM
I dunno if I'd go quite as far as Dark Jimbo - 'Timewave' wasn't as protractedly and consistently awful as something like two-part crapfest 'Pete' from Season 8 - but it was the weakest episode of the Dave era thus far. There were a few good bits - the Kryten-reversing throwaway gag amused me, and I did laugh at Rimmer's line [spoiler]"Protected as I am under Space Corp Directive 381286 - Kryten, shut up."[/spoiler] Unfortunately, the rubbish unfunny bits outweighed the good, and the ending in particular was genuinely terrible. The episode almost managed to salvage something with the Rimmer stuff, but we weren't really getting anything we hadn't had before and better in, say, 'Terrorform'.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Mardroid on 27 October, 2017, 09:21:58 AM
Without spoiling anything, the next episode, Mechocracy is very ship-centric with a nice bit of comedy.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: The Enigmatic Dr X on 27 October, 2017, 07:06:09 PM
AAAGH!

I seem to have recorded Red Dwarf V and not the new series at all. Perils of Sky+. Downloading the new episodes as I type.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Mardroid on 28 October, 2017, 06:43:59 AM
You can watch the episodes here (https://uktvplay.uktv.co.uk) though, Dr X. They show each episode a week early. You will need an account but it's not difficult to set up.

I work nights so I have to watch it this way. I usually link my laptop to the TV via HDMI lead. Unfortunately the broadcast is not HD, but it works pretty well.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: IndigoPrime on 28 October, 2017, 01:35:33 PM
If you've an Apple TV, you can also AirPlay mirror an iPhone to your telly. Not ideal, but it works well enough for something like this.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Greg M. on 02 November, 2017, 10:11:59 PM
From the ridiculous to the sublime - 'Mechocracy' turns out to be the best episode of Season XI or XII to date. Brilliant stuff - well-written, well-played and very funny at points, with each of the main cast getting a chance to shine [spoiler]and an extremely unexpected, well-timed and very welcome guest appearance.[/spoiler] What a turnaround from last week!
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: von Boom on 03 November, 2017, 11:10:42 AM
Quote from: Greg M. on 02 November, 2017, 10:11:59 PM
From the ridiculous to the sublime - 'Mechocracy' turns out to be the best episode of Season XI or XII to date. Brilliant stuff - well-written, well-played and very funny at points, with each of the main cast getting a chance to shine [spoiler]and an extremely unexpected, well-timed and very welcome guest appearance.[/spoiler] What a turnaround from last week!

Very true. Mechocracy was gold. I hope the last two episodes can keep up to the same level.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: von Boom on 11 November, 2017, 12:39:44 PM
Doug Naylor seems to have found some Red Dwarf magic again. M-Corp was just great. Very funny all the way through.

[spoiler]Returning Dave to the age of 23 and then ending with the original opening again was an excellent idea. I just think it might have been saved for the last episode of this series. It would made a fitting end to Red Dwarf if no more series were made.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Greg M. on 11 November, 2017, 12:54:10 PM
I enjoyed M-Corp - a solid episode, with a good central concept and an oddly melancholic vibe to it. The fan-pleasing ending, though calculated, was worthy of the cheers it received from the audience.

Interesting to consider the running order - if this happened on Lister's birthday, then either this episode happens just before 'Cured' (in which it had been around a year since his last birthday) or a year has passed since the start of the series.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 11 November, 2017, 08:25:58 PM
Saw the series XII finale yesterday on catchup.

[spoiler]It's got Holly in it. And Captain Hollister.[/spoiler]

Pretty strong, really. I just hope to goodness this isn't the last ever episode.

[spoiler]A bit too much like the way Peep Show finished - which I hated - for my taste.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Magnetica on 11 November, 2017, 08:47:23 PM
I thought M-Corp was the best episode of Red Dwarf in a very long time. Easily the best of the Dave era. It was as good as something from series 3 or 4. It was funny and had a genuinely good sci-fi plot. it was also poignant in a way I don't think we have seen on Red Dwarf before.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Taryn Tailz on 12 November, 2017, 02:54:05 PM
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 11 November, 2017, 08:25:58 PM
Saw the series XII finale yesterday on catchup.

[spoiler]It's got Holly in it. And Captain Hollister.[/spoiler]

Pretty strong, really. I just hope to goodness this isn't the last ever episode.

[spoiler]A bit too much like the way Peep Show finished - which I hated - for my taste.[/spoiler]

It's not the last episode. Doug Naylor has recently stated that pre-production work has already begun on Series 13. :)
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Greg M. on 12 November, 2017, 03:09:53 PM
Quote from: Magnetica on 11 November, 2017, 08:47:23 PM
it was also poignant in a way I don't think we have seen on Red Dwarf before.

Red Dwarf at its best has always had an emotional undercurrent, centred on Lister's loneliness, something that was much more prevalent in Series 1 & 2. For that reason, I'm never that keen on the show introducing other living humans to Lister's 3-million-years-on universe - it detracts from one of the core concepts of the series. Of course, complaining about that after Series 8 is pointless - that ship has sailed.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Magnetica on 12 November, 2017, 05:14:00 PM
Yes you are right- I had forgotten that. From series 3 it morphed into more of a wacky action driven sci-fi comedy rather than a character driven one with sci-fi trappings.

It's a while since I read them, but I recall the books put quite a lot of focus on that aspect as well.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: von Boom on 12 November, 2017, 05:23:10 PM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 12 November, 2017, 02:54:05 PM
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 11 November, 2017, 08:25:58 PM
Saw the series XII finale yesterday on catchup.

[spoiler]It's got Holly in it. And Captain Hollister.[/spoiler]

Pretty strong, really. I just hope to goodness this isn't the last ever episode.

[spoiler]A bit too much like the way Peep Show finished - which I hated - for my taste.[/spoiler]

It's not the last episode. Doug Naylor has recently stated that pre-production work has already begun on Series 13. :)

So it seems.

http://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/877705/Red-Dwarf-season-13-start-date-cast-Red-Dwarf-XIII-UKTV-Lister (http://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/877705/Red-Dwarf-season-13-start-date-cast-Red-Dwarf-XIII-UKTV-Lister)
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Mardroid on 13 November, 2017, 08:19:56 AM
They're hoping to do a live show at the O2 next year too, being Red Dwarf's 30 year anniversary, but it's still early plane yet.

The last three episodes of this series have been pretty good. [spoiler]There was some really funny 'space anomaly' comedy with Lister and the Cat in the first part of Skipper before Rimmer went parallel universe skipping in the second half. There was some decent  comedy then, too, although it was a bit more silly, - intentionally so in the case of Rat - but I thought the funniest part was at the start. The scene with a certain returning character reminiscent of another classic scene in The End, being a possible exception. I wouldn't mind him returning for good.  [/spoiler]
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: sheridan on 13 November, 2017, 01:02:07 PM
High definition didn't do [spoiler]Holly[/spoiler] any favours - I know age comes to us all, but I think a little pixelation or soft-focus might have made those scenes a little less jarring (or maybe I'm just morbid as I recently had a birthday!)

As for some of the topics that have come up on this thread - I loved the first two series and immediately liked RDIII less from the moment the leccy guitars kicked in.  Not saying I haven't liked the series, just not as much as the first two.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: JamesC on 13 November, 2017, 01:18:55 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 13 November, 2017, 01:02:07 PM
High definition didn't do [spoiler]Holly[/spoiler] any favours - I know age comes to us all, but I think a little pixelation or soft-focus might have made those scenes a little less jarring (or maybe I'm just morbid as I recently had a birthday!)

As for some of the topics that have come up on this thread - I loved the first two series and immediately liked RDIII less from the moment the leccy guitars kicked in.  Not saying I haven't liked the series, just not as much as the first two.

I felt the same but warmed to it pretty quickly.
I always thought it was a mistake to upgrade Rimmer to 'hard light' though.

Out if interest did anyone watch Craig Charles's less successful sitcom on Channel 4 - Captain Butler? It was pretty good.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 13 November, 2017, 06:49:01 PM
I did watch and moderately enjoyed Captain Butler. Seem to recall Robert Llewellyn guest-starred as an admiral. Craig Charles was also awesome in Takeshi's Castle and Robot Wars, although latterly, inexplicably  replaced by white men.

Red Dwarf I and II are by far my favourite. I'd probably go for X next, that was pretty strong.

Roll on XIII, and - I guess - the live show.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Greg M. on 16 November, 2017, 10:13:24 PM
I enjoyed Skipper - but it wasn't quite what I expected. For a series that's made so many callbacks to previous ones, I found it really odd that when the subject of a parallel universe where Rimmer wasn't a smeghead came up, no-one mentioned Ace Rimmer. It seemed too obvious not to be dealt with in some way.  (Even the episode title seemed like a reference.) Overall though, the first half of the episode was great, the second half good.

Series verdict - an odd one. Ambitious, inconsistent, heavily indebted to its own continuity, but its best outweighed its worst. Back half superior to front half, but worth it for Mechocracy alone, which is probably the best of the Dave era.

Scene of the season - it's got to be this, hasn't it? I have watched this one scene a ridiculous number of times now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3MU0g5UJtI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3MU0g5UJtI)
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Tjm86 on 17 November, 2017, 09:39:54 AM
Can I thank you for that link sir.  I've not watched any of the most recent series but that looks like a perfect example of what made the old stuff so great. 

(Of course having made the mistake of having a gander at the US remake pilot, I now need to wash my eyeballs out)
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: von Boom on 17 November, 2017, 03:19:42 PM
I really enjoyed Skipper. It wasn't quite as good as Mechocracy or M-Corp (which should have ended the series I think), but still I laughed pretty much throughout the episode. Series XII had highs and lows, but overall I think they did a grand job with this series. I hope they don't take too long with series XIII.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: James Stacey on 17 November, 2017, 04:03:11 PM
I thought XII was a total triumph and certainly more consistent than XI. Skipper was excellent and it was great to see some nice cameos although I do agree [spoiler]Holly would have looked better with a bit of pixellation or soft focus [/spoiler] :D XIII hasn't been greenlit yet but Doug Naylor says hes already working on scripts and reviews / ratings were so good its not an 'if' but a 'when'. XIII and XIV may be recorded at the same time again but he wants to do a live Red Dwarf show at the O2 which may mean only time for the one season for now.
Title: Re: Red Dwarf XII
Post by: Woolly on 17 November, 2017, 05:58:32 PM
Never understood this obsession Doug seems to have with a live show for Red Dwarf - ISTR he wanted to do something similar when writing Back To Earth, but decided to keep it TV only (which is the best option IMO).

Fun as it would be to see the lads in the flesh, I really can't see it working on stage.