Prog 1819: Dangerous Minds.

[Leigh S]

When we had Stront flashbacks, all we got were "these stories have no dramatic weight" criticisms, on the (to me weird) belief that knowing the character can't die removes any tension from the narrative.

Well, no. You're deliberately misunderstanding. We pretty much know that in the vast majority of serialised stories the lead character isn't going to die, the thing with flashback stories is that we know the eventual fates of pretty much all the characters and how everything will turn out in the end, and this is why there's no dramatic tension. Flashbacks are fine for a while, but long term they're totally limited in the sort of stories they can be used to tell. At it's height, Stront always felt like one long ongoing story, there were real stakes, epic stories that shook things up. Most of the flashbacks felt a bit like treading water, excercises in nostalgia that were catering only to the most hardcore fans who want everything to be just like they remember from when they were kids - which is to me hardly exciting.

Hey, its very possible I'm unintentionally misunderstanding!

I get the argument to some extent, but I think its overstated as far as Stront feeling like an ongoing narrative, Stront did this occasionally with stories like Outlaw, Rage etc, and as it introduced new villains like the Stix Brothers that popped them back up occasionally, but many (I'd argue the majority) of the stories stand alone - something like the Killing, or the Kid Knee Caper - you can go for those type of tales only, which admittedly is limiting the scope of the stories you tell - That said I'd rather have the possibility of another The Killing than most things the comic might offer though! 

You can also use Flashbacks to fill in the large gaps in the characters history (and they are many and long); send him on interesting journeys that explain the man we saw in the original tales...shock us with something we didnt know about Alpha  (the classic flashback of Portrait of a mutant being a prime example).  He wont die, but just what will he have to sacrifice, what principles will be tested, what will he have to endure to come out alive? Put him through the grinder! 

I don't think the flashbacks did enough of this, but both of these approaches I think could make a pure flashback approach valid beyond "nostalgia".  Given they are one a year on average, it wasnt as if they were overtaking the prog!  If its a good story set in the stront universe with Alpha in it, then tell it, as its one of the comics best universes and best characters, nostalgia excluded.

I'm not sure wanting to see more adventures of your favourite characters/worlds by their original creators is a bad thing - I think dragging them out with other creators would reek of that kind of thing, but knowing how much both creators care for the strip, I can't accuse any of the "new" stronts of this, even when they havent lit my thrill circuits as much as they might.

Personally, I enjoyed them all as stand alone tales to some degree or other, and thought they were going somewhere interesting in terms of filling out the backstory around "traitor to his kind" for a while (though it sadly resolved itself rather too quickly).  I'm happy for the comic to have ongoing stories like Dante and Dredd to satisfy that craving, and I'll forgive a flashback of a story I really enjoy filling up a slot over the adventures of a story I dont really care for. 

The problem I have currently with Life and Death is that it is moving the narrative on, but in a way that is quite hugely influenced by Wagners decision to tie this in with Final Solution in a way that still gives FS and its characters a bit of a kicking - so Alphas experiences and character now feel massively affected by a tale that the writers were trying to back away from in the first place!

Given that FS was all about the establishment trying to kill off mutants once and for all, and Alpha wakes up after 10 years to find that the establishment are trying to kill off mutants once and for all....  I think its a very bold move from Wagner to tackle it in this way, but while I'm enjoying the ride, I do find it hard to see where this all leads.   

Alpha is mutant son of a fascist who always does the right thing. 

Alpha is mutant son of a fascist who always does the right thing and spent 10 years underground and has a gremlin in his head is a development alright, but I'm reserving judgement on where that takes things - Wagner is good at making these things make perfect sense in the long run, but when the long run is looking at 4/5/6 years to get there, its hard not to be wary!

[radiator]

Traitor to his own Kind is a good example - it would have been a much more exciting tale if it were set in the 'present' IMO as we wouldn't know what was going to happen.

I can't comment on the current arc as I'm not really reading the prog at the mo and will catch up with it in one hit.

[Colin YNWA]

Yeah, I loved the Dredd but thought exactly the same as Lee, why not just [spoiler]shoot the perp?[/spoiler] Was Dredd giving him enough time to reconsider?

I think you've answered your own question. The last line something like 'I was trying to save your city' or some such (sorry Prog upstairs and I'm too lazy) kinda said to me he was trying to give the PSI judge as much time as possible?

I get the argument to some extent, but I think its overstated as far as Stront feeling like an ongoing narrative, Stront did this occasionally with stories like Outlaw, Rage etc, and as it introduced new villains like the Stix Brothers that popped them back up occasionally, but many (I'd argue the majority) of the stories stand alone - something like the Killing, or the Kid Knee Caper - you can go for those type of tales only, which admittedly is limiting the scope of the stories you tell - That said I'd rather have the possibility of another The Killing than most things the comic might offer though! 

Have to say I agree with Leigh on this. Sure we know how the big picture of the story worked out but the individual tales still had plenty to offer. The only counter argument I get is that given that Alan Grant had created this more ongoing saga thing that's what John Wagner wanted to sustain and couldn't. Clearly I have no idea but regardless loved the stand alone past stories.

[James Stacey]

As for the rest, I'm loving Savage. Goddard is amazing and Pat has done a great job of ramping up the tension. I'm really rather worried for Old Bill...

Don't worry he'll be fine when [spoiler]he finally gets put in that Mark III war droid chassis[/spoiler]

[IndigoPrime]

@James: Ugh. Don't even joke about that.

[Trout]

I can confirm, having had the conversation with him, that John Wagner is writing Strontium Dog stories again because he's enjoying himself. There is no hidden agenda.

I feel there's a contradiction in what's being said (admittedly by different people) here: there's a lack of dramatic tension because we know what happens in the end, and continuity is disregarded. The point of the "inaccurate historical records" device was to reintroduce Alpha with a sense that anything could happen. It's John's toybox again.

I'm really enjoying the new stories and I didn't like a lot of what other writers did with the character. I hope Strontium Dog stays in the prog for a long time.

- Trout

[House of Usher]

Good Prog. I really liked most of it.

Interesting discussion, too.

[radiator]

The point of the "inaccurate historical records" device was to reintroduce Alpha with a sense that anything could happen. It's John's toybox again.

Which was all well and good - I really liked The Kreeler Connection because it felt like a genuinely fresh, grittier take on the character, almost a soft reboot of Strontium Dog, but the device was all but entirely dropped in later stories (At Andy Diggle's request IIRC) in favour of the pure nostalgia of stories like Roadhouse, which to me just felt a bit meandering.

[radiator]

*Kreeler Conspiracy

[Trout]

The point of the "inaccurate historical records" device was to reintroduce Alpha with a sense that anything could happen. It's John's toybox again.

Which was all well and good - I really liked The Kreeler Connection because it felt like a genuinely fresh, grittier take on the character, almost a soft reboot of Strontium Dog, but the device was all but entirely dropped in later stories (At Andy Diggle's request IIRC) in favour of the pure nostalgia of stories like Roadhouse, which to me just felt a bit meandering.

Well, you may say it's been dropped, but I would say it was established well enough and doesn't need to be referred to again. Certainly, there's nothing to suggest that continuity is no longer fluid.

As a wider question for everyone, is there still bad feeling about the treatment of Feral?

Also, am I wrong in thinking we effectively have two types of Strontium Dog fans: those of us who liked the original Wagner/Grant stories best and felt a bit pained to read the Final Solution/Strontium Dogs/Tales of the Doghouse material; and those people who appreciate that later stuff more, perhaps because you read it when you were a bit younger?
I do feel sometimes that there are two generations of 2000AD fandom: the 80s kids who are now in their forties, and the kids who were a bit younger and joined in later. Is that patronising? I hope not.

[Proudhuff]

Enjoyed the Crucis/Stickleback crossover and Red Knees went up a gear, Dancer's speech what a hoot as was Morning Star's reply!
Savage house prices made me chortle too, Stront seems to have found its stride too and it was nice to revisit 'Dredd in the head' type story, but as said elsewhere, Dredd would have simply shot the dude rather than the lengthy lift shaft drop, still it make for a better story  but given Dredd's recent doubt's about his EastMeg2 job and where it has left his city, some hesitation might have been warranted?

[strontium71]

As for the rest, I'm loving Savage. Goddard is amazing and Pat has done a great job of ramping up the tension. I'm really rather worried for Old Bill...

Don't worry he'll be fine when [spoiler]he finally gets put in that Mark III war droid chassis[/spoiler]

I suggested this ages ago , and I reckon [spoiler]Bill will have his body destroyed and have his brain put into the chassis , just like Quartz has had done. Be quite weird to think that , if true , then Bill Savage was Hammerstein after all these years.[/spoiler]

[Link Prime]

The point of the "inaccurate historical records" device was to reintroduce Alpha with a sense that anything could happen. It's John's toybox again.

Which was all well and good - I really liked The Kreeler Connection because it felt like a genuinely fresh, grittier take on the character, almost a soft reboot of Strontium Dog, but the device was all but entirely dropped in later stories (At Andy Diggle's request IIRC) in favour of the pure nostalgia of stories like Roadhouse, which to me just felt a bit meandering.

Well, you may say it's been dropped, but I would say it was established well enough and doesn't need to be referred to again. Certainly, there's nothing to suggest that continuity is no longer fluid.

As a wider question for everyone, is there still bad feeling about the treatment of Feral?

Also, am I wrong in thinking we effectively have two types of Strontium Dog fans: those of us who liked the original Wagner/Grant stories best and felt a bit pained to read the Final Solution/Strontium Dogs/Tales of the Doghouse material; and those people who appreciate that later stuff more, perhaps because you read it when you were a bit younger?
I do feel sometimes that there are two generations of 2000AD fandom: the 80s kids who are now in their forties, and the kids who were a bit younger and joined in later. Is that patronising? I hope not.

Some interesting points there Trout.
Regarding your theory of 'two generations of 2000AD characters', I would say this very much has an impact on how certain characters & story-lines are perceived.

Speaking as a 35 year old reader (since Prog 400 ish) I would say that I sit quite snugly in between the generations (with regard to Strontium Dog).
I read and enjoyed the 'Classic' stories in the weekly, and caught up on the majority of the older stuff via the Best of 2000AD Monthly / Quality reprints.
That's not to say I didn't enjoy the later stuff too. I'm not going to claim that The Final Solution was the greatest story ever written, but it was of its time, and ended Johnny's story for better or worse.
I'm also not going to claim that 'Strontium Dogs' was the pinnacle of storytelling, but some of it was quite good (Ennis' The Darkest Star), and I also appreciated Peter Hogans attempts to tie the disparate strands of the SD universe together into an ongoing narrative. It had potential, and the art was generally first rate.
The Abnett / Harrison Durham Red saga also directly followed on from this, and ran as a popular Thrill for quite a few years. This too has been technically contradicted by the new storyline.

I personally think that the recent resurrection of Johnny was contrived and whimsical, no disrespect intended.
There were at least half a dozen other ways it could have been done if considered necessary, including the most obvious one IMO- using the time travel aspect of the strips mythos to 'resurrect' Johnny without alluding to or contradicting any previous stories or continuity.
As mentioned by others, the fact the new storyline seems to be simply re-treading 'The Final Solution' (in broad plot terms) only makes it all the more disappointing.

With regard to the treatment / killing off of Feral- to me it smacked a little bit of spite, and was completely unnecessary.

PS; having re-read this thread and my opening post on the topic, I'd like to retract the "shat all over" comment, which reads as quite harsh upon reflection.
Most forum users who have made my acquaintance would attest that I'm usually as mild mannered as Clark Kent on Valium.

[Rob1971]

Story should live/die on its own merits without further explanation, but the reason Dredd shoots the lift cable is the big bloody monster coming in to eat him. The lift fall takes them away from that enormous mouth.

Now, would the monster disappear if Dredd shoots Salas? Probably. But when something that huge & freaky is looming down on you...

[I, Cosh]

I do feel sometimes that there are two generations of 2000AD fandom: the 80s kids who are now in their forties, and the kids who were a bit younger and joined in later. Is that patronising? I hope not.

Don't think it's patronising, just a fact. However, I don't think there are many homogeneous views in either group.

Also, am I wrong in thinking we effectively have two types of Strontium Dog fans: those of us who liked the original Wagner/Grant stories best and felt a bit pained to read the Final Solution/ Strontium Dogs/ Tales of the Doghouse material; and those people who appreciate that later stuff more, perhaps because you read it when you were a bit younger?

I'm (marginally) younger than forty but I think, by lumping Final Solution in with the spin-offs, you're going to have to extend that to three types of fan at least. I like the original SD stories but I include Final Solution firmly in that body of work. I loved it at the time and still think it's a fitting end. I'm not really bothered either way about what came after: the Ennis stuff is readable and Hogan's run is nice enough but meandering and inconsequential. Abnett's Durham Red I like a lot but it has so little connection to the rest it's almost irrelevant.

Not at all bothered about the treatment of Feral as it seems like a neat way of brushing aside what Wagner wants to ignore.

To return to what initially started this off; I'm not really for or against bringing Johnny back to life so long as there are some decent stories. Unfortunately, while I mostly enjoyed the flashback stories (Roadhouse and Blood Moon are particular favourites for entirely different reasons) I've not been enjoying the new stories so far. The first was okay as set up but the second and third really haven't done it for me yet.

I certainly didn't expect it to end up in a second mutant war but it feels to me like the writer is trying to overturn the existing status quo of the strip to get to a specific point. Maybe when he gets there I'll start to enjoy those stories but I'm finding the journey itself rather wordy and boring. In part I think it's suffering in the same way as Kreeler Conspiracy did from the "future history" framing. Too much of the story is imparted through news reports and such, so it seems as if we're being told about a story rather than told the story, if that makes sense.