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When did 2000ad get good again.

Started by BPP, 04 July, 2019, 11:38:40 AM

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Colin YNWA

Like JaysuzB. I think Kola Kommandos is all sorts of fun. I wasn't expecting to like it on my recent re-read but I did. A lot.

My honest take on all this is try everything, if its not doing anything for you ditch it. I bet you'll not get any two fans to agree a list. The glory of 2000ad is the variety it offers and the variety of opinion it brings. I'd predict there's something on the list here that folks think is bobbins that you will like and vice versa.

radiator

A lot of those strips from the 700s-900s era kind of blur into one in my mind. I see that period as 2000ad's awkward adolescent years.

Stuff like Kola Kommandos, Time House, Brigand Doom, Babe Race 2000, Dead Meat, Really & Truly, Armoured Gideon, The Clown, The Grudgefather, Wireheads, Kid Cyborg, Bix Barton, Big Dave... and on and on... Just not strong 2000ad material as far as I'm concerned. I could never make head nor tail of any of it - it's all so wishy washy. Definitely the least appealing period of 2000ad on both a storytelling and art front imo.

For me, quintessential 2000ad strips tend to follow a particular formula, generally having the following qualities;

1) some kind of unique/interesting hook (or at least a twist on an established premise)

2) generally revolve around a strongly defined central character, usually a titular character (and if they have one or more memorable catchphrases, all the better)

3) have a very simple premise than can effectively be summarised in one single short pitch line.

Shakara - that's a 2000ad strip. Kingdom - that's a 2000ad strip.

I think Andy Diggle's tenure helped a lot to get the comic back on track. Not all of the stuff he commissioned worked, but I think he at least had a very clear vision for what the comic should be (and what it definitely wasn't).

JayzusB.Christ

Quote from: radiator on 17 July, 2019, 10:03:07 PM

2) generally revolve around a strongly defined central character, usually a titular character (and if they have one or more memorable catchphrases, all the better)



Well, as long as the catchphrase wasn't squeezed in long after the strip lost its way.  Let's knife!
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest"

Frank

Quote from: radiator on 17 July, 2019, 10:03:07 PM
Big Dave ... it's all so wishy-washy

That's a unique sentiment.

I agree with your characterisation of 2000ADiggle, though. Even though I didn't really enjoy the Back To The Old Days approach of the early Rebellion period*, I at least felt the comic had some kind of guiding philosophy and identifiable direction again**

The Burton/McKenzie/Tomlinson/Bishop years felt, for the most part, like a near-decade of drift. The odd stuff that worked was seldom built upon and it wasn't immediately apparent to me why the stuff that didn't had been commissioned in the first place.

That's what characterises the nineties. We can't all agree on everything that was good and what wasn't, but I'm pretty sure (at the time) that most of us perceived the comic to be adrift without a rudder or a Captain.


* Rogue Trooper, again?!

** Even though readers didn't - or at least I didn't - know of Dig-L's Shot Glass Of Rocket Fuel memo at the time

I, Cosh

 IS there anyone who doesn't like Nikolai Dante?
We never really die.

JayzusB.Christ

I really didn't like it at first. One of the main reasons was Robbie's tendency back then to put all the wrong words in bold, making the dialogue all jerky and weird.  Also I thought Nikolai was a wanker.  But RM fixed his dialogue, and his main character,  and it turned out bloody brilliant.
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest"

radiator

QuoteI agree with your characterisation of 2000ADiggle, though. Even though I didn't really enjoy the Back To The Old Days approach of the early Rebellion period*, I at least felt the comic had some kind of guiding philosophy and identifiable direction again**

Even at the time, prog 1250 felt like a kind of mission statement - Garth Ennis and Ezquerra back on Dredd leading a line up of fairly iconic*, action-heavy strips that all have (iirc) at least one splash page apiece.

*well, Tor Cyan was supposed to be the next big thing at the time.

MumboJimbo

Quote from: Funt Solo on 17 July, 2019, 05:17:21 PM
If you're looking to excise the blander end of the market (and I speak to my overall experience, even where perhaps the art was wonderful), you might consider adding to your list:
- Brigand Doom [Marmite]
- Skizz II & III [because it's not Moore]
- Soul Gun Warrior & Assassin
- The Grudge-Father
- Urban Strike [arguably just an extended ad]
- Maniac 6
- Kid Cyborg
- Outlaw
- Pussyfoot 5

I think blandness is actually what I'm trying to avoid here. I don't mind contentious, offensive or even the plain bad. I can't comment on whether Millar's 90s output has offensive homosexual stereotypes that go beyond what was considered acceptable in its day, as I haven't read it. There has though been a difference of opinion here, and I'd be interested to find out how I felt.

It's the blandness of certain stories that make a prog slog of this era into, well, a slog. I regard prog 723 (the first full colour prog) as really the end of the "silver age" of 2000 AD, as it marks a moment where there's a (in my opinion) significant uptick in the amount of the generic action strips that just kind of wash over you. It's when the Robo-Hunter reboot starts and Garth Ennis take over Dredd (which are to be fair a hit-and-miss collection, but I've just read the Muzak Killer story, so I'm feeling a bit anti-Ennis at the mo). But the move to all colour itself also has a deleterious effect; when half the prog was b&w you had the sense that the strips that were in colour were picked because they were either very high-profile stories, or colour would aid the story telling in some way, or maybe use an interesting restricted pallet to convey a certain mood. But when full-colour comes in a lot of the colouring is so, well (sorry to use that word again) bland.

I think the replies folks have given here have helped me focus what I'm really trying to avoid here. And everything new will definitely be given a fair crack of the whip. But equally I'll be happy to quickly drop those stories that peeps have called out for being poor. Interesting though that for many of these stories, there's often one or two posters who have defended them. For myself I very much like what I've read so far of Brigand Doom. And Moonrunners was awful, yet that didn't stop it being a fascinating folly that shed light on how the staff behind 2000 AD wanted to position the prog at that time. When you're reading progs from 30 years ago, the "archaeology" is part of the fun. That's why I far prefer reading the old progs to GN collections - I love the articles on Amiga games and 12" remixes! Even the bank adverts are interesting to me (they seem so hamfisted in their ways to appear to younger customers).

MumboJimbo

Quote from: Leigh S on 17 July, 2019, 08:10:49 PM
I'd be intrigued if you could at least read part 1 of every skippable story - maybe keep going if it might not seem as bad as all that - then report back either "U WOZ ALL WRONGZ" or merely which episode the strip was ditched at!

I will definitely do that!

Jim_Campbell

Quote from: Frank on 17 July, 2019, 10:27:21 PM
** Even though readers didn't - or at least I didn't - know of Dig-L's Shot Glass Of Rocket Fuel memo at the time

Andy was a regular contributor to the 2000AD Usenet group back then, and posted his mission statement in full to the group.
Stupidly Busy Letterer: Samples. | Blog
Less-Awesome-Artist: Scribbles.

AlexF

If you're going to read through a huge chunk of Progs, I think it's wise to cut out strips you're likely to find a chore.
I'd say skip any and all Rogue-Trooperish strips for sure, even after Fleisher is replaced it's a mess.
Likewise Strontium Dogs, with the exception of 'Monsters' which I believe starts in Prog 750.
Under no circumstances should you read Red Razors.
(poor old nigel Dobbyn)

And, because they're often rather wordy, you'd be forgiven for skipping over Vector 13.
Are we counting ParaSites as continuation of WireHeads? It's my current pick for worst 2000AD story. (WireHeads on its own is a noble failure with quite a few fun ideas)

Dare I say it, but you might want to consider skimming through any outings for Finn post Prog 900, and indeed Slaine from the same era...

Saddest of all, you could do worse than ignoring all Judge Dredd episodes from Inferno through to Conspiracy of Silence, while also trying not to get too annoyed that a lot of key Dredd is going on over in the Megazine, courtesy of Mechanismo and The Tenth Planet.
And I say that as someone who mostly enjoyed Ennis Dredd, and even the early Millar Dredds!

radiator

QuoteI'd say skip any and all Rogue-Trooperish strips for sure, even after Fleisher is replaced it's a mess.

I've got to admit, I have a bit of a soft spot for the Steve White/Dan Abnett era of Rogue, it being my first exposure to the character. It at least had some momentum, the feeling that they were building towards something, and I still consider Steve Tappin a really underrated 2000ad artist of the time.

The Fleischer era was and is absolutely unreadable though. Lets just say that Simon Coleby's art improved a lot after his Rogue trooper run.

Greg M.

Seconded - the Steve White Rogue Trooper is pretty good (up until it tries to merge continuities with old Rogue Trooper, something it never recovers from.) Likewise, Strontium Dogs is perfectly decent, particularly the Pete Hogan stuff. (To be honest though, I can enjoy Ennis's work on the series too - apart from Monsters, which is a bit dull.) And just to show that I didn't post to contradict AlexF at every turn, he's right about WireHeads - for all its awful reputation, it's not that bad. ParaSites is absolutely dire though.

IndigoPrime

Steve White's Rogue, I agree, isn't bad, but it mostly for me seemed good by comparison to what went before it. In mashing together the various Rogues, we just ended up with a mess. Tor Cyan was, to my mind, more interesting, but then that just kind of stopped.

As for Strontium Dogs, I think it warrants a re-read at some point, when I get through the pile of doom. As I've said elsewhere, I've really grown to like Hogan's work (Resident Alien is wonderful, for example), and suspect some of his 2000 AD output would read better to me now I'm an old git.

Richard

It doesn't. It was before he was good.