I'm not a massive fan of Armoured Gideon but the cover does do the character justice. I think though that some of the comments about the prog being a bit of a mixed bag might be applicable again. Dredd finishes off nicely and McConville has produced a serviceable script for Manco's artwork.
I'm in the 'not really feeling the current series of the Order' camp. Burns' artwork is as sumptuous as ever but I'm not really sure what the hell is going on here. Perhaps I need to go back and give it a re-read. The 3rillers is another tale that has left me cold. A cliched turn hasn't helped matters. Maybe the final denouement will help change my mind.
Mechastopheles is another strip I'm hoping will shape up into something more than it is at the moment. Richardson's artwork continues to serve well and there are some interesting ideas. It's a bit exposition heavy but not OTT.
Grey Area shows Harrison's strengths and there's an interesting colour pallet in play. The episode is a bit jarring as the story takes a dramatic turn to develop the plot. Other than commenting that there are one or two elements that could be construed as cliched, it is probably best to say very, very little about events until the prog hits the shops. All I will say is that for me, this is the other highlight of the prog.
(https://i.imgur.com/yowkgjb.jpg)
My favourite thing this week was the last panel of Dredd, which is fantastic.
I also liked Droidlife, which was just silly!
Yes, that last panel of Dredd's great! The story rounds off nicely and I hope Manco becomes a regular on Dredd.
The Order based cover image also has real punch, the strip itself is the usual wyrmy piffle.
We'll have to see how the 3riller ends but it does appear to have taken a cliched turn. Mutti's art is nice though, rather Yeowell esque.
Richardson's art would be better used elsewhere than with the big robots I think.
Developments in Grey Area aren't entirely unexpected, although the detail of it is, but it will be interesting to see where he Dabnett takes us with this..
The prog's a no show at Huff mansions sur-le -mer. :'(
No prog for me, either. Bah.
Huzzah! the prog arrives and my eye is constantly drawn to that gap above the L and A in the speech balloon...
At least there are no crossbars!
Dredd nicely wrapped up an a sneak appearance of [spoiler] Terry Gilliam[/spoiler] :crazy:
Dredd suffering from a lack of gravitas, but apart from that cracking artwork.
I must admit nothing else in the prog catching my eye, vaguely following stories but nothing with a hook for me.
Glad to see the [spoiler]Bitch is back[/spoiler] but that's all a bit MCU for me.
One thing I have noticed with Rory McConville scripts – in 2000 AD and the Meg – is there's a lot of exposition in caption blocks. It feels a bit prose-like at times, and very much tell rather than show. I suspect it's just a style thing, but it's making his Dredds sometimes feel a bit off for me, even though the underlying ideas are solid.
That was the only thing that did the episode in for me. Visually the final panel was stunning but the text jarred a little. Hard to put my finger on why ...
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 14 August, 2018, 11:03:15 AM
One thing I have noticed with Rory McConville scripts – in 2000 AD and the Meg – is there's a lot of exposition in caption blocks. It feels a bit prose-like at times, and very much tell rather than show. I suspect it's just a style thing, but it's making his Dredds sometimes feel a bit off for me, even though the underlying ideas are solid.
There is a feature in this month's Megazine about creating Future Shocks. In that Rory McConville says " A lot of my stories use captions to move the story along, because you must keep a story accelerating as much as possible so you use whatever narrative tools you have."
Now I haven't read this week's Prog yet so can't specifically comment on that, but one of his Dredd's a few weeks ago did exactly that, and I thought it just didn't work at all. I don't recall John Wagner, for example, using that technique.
Quote from: Magnetica on 14 August, 2018, 09:19:32 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 14 August, 2018, 11:03:15 AM
One thing I have noticed with Rory McConville scripts – in 2000 AD and the Meg – is there's a lot of exposition in caption blocks. It feels a bit prose-like at times, and very much tell rather than show. I suspect it's just a style thing, but it's making his Dredds sometimes feel a bit off for me, even though the underlying ideas are solid.
Now I haven't read this week's Prog yet so can't specifically comment on that, but one of his Dredd's a few weeks ago did exactly that, and I thought it just didn't work at all. I don't recall John Wagner, for example, using that technique.
Yes, I also do not like this technique (he also did it in this months Meg #399 for Dredd)
Anyway, the prog was as the previous weeks still very solid.
Grey Area was the surprise for me this week since it felt a little bit off-boil for me. The art of Harrison was the best I seen him done since he started on Grey Area (much better than the messy art especially the aliens). The story takes an interesting twist[spoiler] and the return of certain characters where not a surprise but the way its done was exciting[/spoiler].
The Order keeps its pace with twists and turns at every corner. This is one ride that waits for nobody (so remember to keep holding on).
Dredd was a good story, good art and the last panel was really fantastic.
Quote from: Magnetica on 14 August, 2018, 09:19:32 PMRory McConville says " A lot of my stories use captions to move the story along, because you must keep a story accelerating as much as possible so you use whatever narrative tools you have."
Fair enough. The problem for me is that these big blocks of text do the opposite for pacing, and slow things down. Perhaps it's their sheer volume in some of his Dredd strips. Like I said, it at times feels like you're reading illustrated prose rather than a comic. (Or perhaps it's in part because with Dredd I'm used to terse Wagner caption use.)
Quote from: broodblik on 15 August, 2018, 05:07:58 AM
Quote from: Magnetica on 14 August, 2018, 09:19:32 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 14 August, 2018, 11:03:15 AM
... there's a lot of exposition in caption blocks. It feels a bit prose-like at times
... I thought it just didn't work at all. I don't recall John Wagner, for example, using that technique.
Yes, I also do not like this technique (he also did it in this months Meg #399 for Dredd)
Wagner-era stories like
Revolution (https://i.imgur.com/tTIGJ8q.png),
Bloodline (https://i.imgur.com/CjANWuV.png), and
The Big Sleep (https://i.imgur.com/O3nNW1h.jpg) made liberal use of captions. I didn't mind the sudden arrival of a third-person omniscient narrator; any problems might result from the way the device was used, rather than the device itself.*
* It's probably the volume of text that struck the wrong note; I agree the captions are overwritten. The sequence of panels on p.2 could have read 1: AS LONG AS HE COULD REMEMBER, HE'D ALWAYS WANTED TO JOIN THE SYNDICATE, 2: HIS TRYOUT ENDED WITH HIM HANGING FROM A FLYOVER BY HIS ANKLES, 3: HE'D NEVER FORGOTTEN THEIR LAUGHTER.
It'd probably help if the presentation was a little cuter. The Big Sleep example above makes a feature of narration by turning the strip into a parody of detective fiction. The PJ Maybe stories either used the diary format to drop in narration or, in the case of Confeshuns (https://i.imgur.com/cD0Qiam.png), opened with Maybe under interrogation and presented the narration as his testimony.
Although The Big Sleep and Bloodline use third-person omniscient narration, it's presented as indirect access to the thoughts and emotions of the focal character. Only Revolution uses the narration to impart information; even then, it's explicating the action seen in each panel, rather than filling in character backstory.
Some brevity/editing would be helpful, although perhaps that's just not the rhythm this writer is going for. I dunno. It just feels a bit off. (And I realise this is turning into a Rory McConville downer on my part, so I should probably state for the record that I mostly like his concepts, and his strips in general. Also, as I've said elsewhere, I'm gobsmacked by how prolific he's become in such a short space of time. That doesn't happen by accident.)
In other news... so Frank Weitz now has an ancestor?
Quote from: sheridan on 15 August, 2018, 12:48:53 PM
In other news... so Frank Weitz now has an ancestor?
Good spot! I'd forgotten his name (the main protagonist in Armoured Gideon).
Quote from: Southstreeter on 15 August, 2018, 01:16:25 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 15 August, 2018, 12:48:53 PM
In other news... so Frank Weitz now has an ancestor?
Good spot! I'd forgotten his name (the main protagonist in Armoured Gideon).
(reminds me of John Constantine's ancestor Lady Joanna Constantine in an episode of Neil Gaiman's
Sandman).
Quote from: sheridan on 15 August, 2018, 12:48:53 PM
In other news... so Frank Weitz now has an ancestor?
Aaah! Missed that.
The Order has never been my kind of thing; likewise,
Armoured Gideon. Maybe they could find a way to tie
Kingmaker into this shared universe and Kek-W could just start writing one enormous strip that gradually absorbs
all the strips I'm not fussed by, so they only occupy one slot in the comic.
Talking of nineties flashbacks,
Grey Area used so many conspiracy theory buzzwords and concepts I worried Abnett might have had a stroke and woke up thinking he was still writing
Vector 13 and
Black Light (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=thrill&page=profiles&choice=EMMAP).
I enjoyed last week's absurd wee vignettes of characters dressed like Vasquez wandering round Lidl expressing their grief, so the
PRESSGANGED INTO THE FOREIGN LEGION gambit feels a bit cheap, no matter how black the ops and even if the books they're impossibly far-off turn out to be the wettest works imaginable.
I don't mind captions when they are used to set the scene and bring the reader up to speed, with the story progressing from that point on, which is how I recall it being used in PJ stories.
It doesn't work when it is used to tell the story, which is what happened in Dredd a few weeks ago.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 15 August, 2018, 11:33:18 AM
Some brevity/editing would be helpful, although perhaps that's just not the rhythm this writer is going for. I dunno. It just feels a bit off. (And I realise this is turning into a Rory McConville downer on my part, so I should probably state for the record that I mostly like his concepts, and his strips in general. Also, as I've said elsewhere, I'm gobsmacked by how prolific he's become in such a short space of time. That doesn't happen by accident.)
In prog 2087 the Dredd story felt like a documentary rather than a story. So yes, depends on how the captions are being used but that specific Dredd story fell flat because of the captions.
Quote from: Magnetica on 15 August, 2018, 01:30:58 PM
I don't mind captions when they are used to set the scene and bring the reader up to speed, with the story progressing from that point on, which is how I recall it being used in PJ stories.
I don't want to derail the thread, so join me in the footnotes*
Where the PJ Maybe stories are relevant to the point you're making is that the diary device and the distinctive voice of the narrator are introduced at the start of each story, so when they reappear later, the reader is familiar with both.
In
A Better Class Of Criminal, the third-person narrator arrives unheralded near the end of a four-part tale, taking over from previous caption boxes in parts two and three, which seemed like they might have been attributed to Dredd (https://i.imgur.com/dSIFkm0.png).
The narration's actually well-written, though, and I didn't have a problem with it. The defining criterion of a good Dredd story shouldn't be how well the writer copies John Wagner, but the Big Dog liked lashings of free indirect narration (https://i.imgur.com/qfwBKLn.png) as well.
* The diary entry device is used liberally - not just at the start or end, but to introduce new information (https://i.imgur.com/VZo2mYO.jpg) and advance the plot (https://i.imgur.com/3v9xFSD.png) - throughout every PJ Maybe story except Ladykiller. Its absence in that story and its replacement by either traditional captions (https://i.imgur.com/BnxoIe4.png) or PJ talking to a never-before-seen voice in his head (https://i.imgur.com/JjgIdwK.jpg) led commenters here to wonder whether the figure we were watching really was Maybe, such was the ubiquity of the diary entry device and ackompanying karicturystick speling misstayks.
Again, I right enjoyed all of that.
Narration and very long basil segments/speechifying in Dredd weren't enough to put me off it. But I can't help feeling the tale should have been more... "fun" and the degeneration should have been more integral to the plot.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 15 August, 2018, 10:48:25 AM
Quote from: Magnetica on 14 August, 2018, 09:19:32 PMRory McConville says " A lot of my stories use captions to move the story along, because you must keep a story accelerating as much as possible so you use whatever narrative tools you have."
Fair enough. The problem for me is that these big blocks of text do the opposite for pacing, and slow things down. Perhaps it's their sheer volume in some of his Dredd strips. Like I said, it at times feels like you're reading illustrated prose rather than a comic. (Or perhaps it's in part because with Dredd I'm used to terse Wagner caption use.)
Well, exactly. Captions don't move things along!
I like demonic robots.
SCUDDINESS
Grey Area's Resting Bitch Face walks around giving her babymaker a good airing, Simon Davis's time on Slaine saw Sinead's duck tape covering less than the L'oreal curls of Botticelli's Venus (https://i.imgur.com/9G8RxX0.jpg), and Durham Red's the first character Ben Willsher's drawn who managed to keep her clothes on for an entire episode*.
I'm fine with all of that; I like all of that. This isn't a heartfelt plea to keep 2000ad suitable for toddlers or an outraged feminist diatribe. Please though, Tharg, never let Karl Richardson draw a nudie lady ever again.
The 'paint me like one of your alt-Venetian girls' scene in Mechastopheles was like the inside cover of my physics jotter. Richardson has a sensibility ideally suited to depicting coal-fueled-Transformer fights, but that same virtue means if you give him a script with nudity he'll deliver the equivalent of a cock and balls scratched onto a school desk in biro.
Richardson's an artist I've grown to like. Couldn't stand the 90s-Image-ism of Outlier, but the bold, graphic quality of his Renaissance Armoured Gideon work has won me over. Still, expecting a Titian Venus (http://titian%20venus) from him, rather than a hardbody with LA tits and areolae drawn using a compass, is like asking Simon Bisley to adapt The Notebook for comics.
I'm not outraged, just embarrassed. I don't know; do you think this is the kind of thing we like?
* Shower scene in episode 2
a tad harsh...?
...nothing wrong with a smoothly drawn areola Frank..?
Not sure what to think. Gonna have to give that frame another once-over.
Cover: It's OK, good pose, but the background colours are a bit too similar to AG's colour scheme to make him really stand out.
Dredd: This story's been a cut above. The final frame is good but the opening frame is phenomenal.
The Order: After all the fuss last week, AG's contribution is a bit underwhelming. But then it's only a robot that goes 'ANNIHILATE!' so the I guess possibilities are limited.
Thrill3r: Plodding.
Mechastopheles: If Karl Richardson draws areolae like that again we'll have to rip out his fingernails.
Grey Area: Exquisite art and colouring, though Grell looked a bit sketchy. A pain collar! Sometimes you can't beat a good old-fashioned SF staple.
Read this before going on me hollies but seemed to have forgotten to pester the review thread about it... must have been trying to work out whether I enjoyed the Armoured Gideon appearance in The Order or not.
The
Dredd was a little overwrought both in story and art.
3riller was fine, but its all about the landing here...
Mechastropheles needs a shorter title as I'm never going to be able to spell that bugger on me own... its getting there.
As for
Grey Area WAYHEY - mind called it... from my review of 2091
QuoteSo last week's Grey Area, the title of this two story don't seem to be the bait and switch I was expecting... though there is one panel, thrid page, third panel, that makes makes me think that its still to come
Finally
The Order, firstly FANTASTIC episode and I'm sure we'll get to why Mr A Gideon has helped make it such soon enough.
Quote from: Geoff on 16 August, 2018, 10:41:19 PM
a tad harsh...?
More than a tad. The man's a professional artist, doing his job. If you don't like it, say, but these posts go too far. Comparing it with a child's drawings is just insulting and serves no practical purpose. I've been harsh with posts here before and I regret it now. You should take a moment to think about the effect yours might have.
I like Richardson's art (see lengthy post above). No worries, Trout; I've misconstrued posts here before (and I regret it now).
When it comes to trying to understand why phrases such as "like the inside cover of my physics jotter", might be thought of as insulting, I would tend to agree with our Piscine majesty, who , after all construes things for a living.
This conversation isn't really about the content of prog 2094.
The official guidelines on that most tedious phenomenon, forum drama, request users attempt to resolve differences over PM or email rather than in a thread. We don't need personal disagreements clogging up and derailing threads (https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=26167.0)
If either of you would like to do so, I'd be happy to cooperate.
Oh pish!
I haven't read or written as many posts on this forum as others but it's pretty obvious that Frank's posts are firmly tongue in cheek.
That is in addition to being insanely detailed, closely argued and often wildly hyperbolic for comic effect.
The man's clearly a maniac :o but a highly entertaining one!
Oops! With the exception of the post above, which I don't think was tongue in cheek :D!
I'll say no more!
Quote from: Frank on 20 August, 2018, 11:21:10 PM
This conversation isn't really about the content of prog 2094.
The official guidelines on that most tedious phenomenon, forum drama, request users attempt to resolve differences over PM or email rather than in a thread. We don't need personal disagreements clogging up and derailing threads (https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=26167.0)
If either of you would like to do so, I'd be happy to cooperate.
Sure, if you feel there's drama, send me a PM. I don't think there is, though. I'm suggesting you consider others' feelings before posting, and your reply is the contention that I shouldn't do it I'm a way that others can see.
Nope. I think I'll speak my mind. :)
Apologies. That should be IN a way. Darned autocorrect.
I think Karl Richardson's Art is the best it's ever been on Mechastopheles, but tend to agree with the intent of Franks post.
The drawings in my school books were awesome! (I also read it as a shorthand for a type of drawing and didn't think it was particularly insulting. I mean it would be harsh in a review but not in a conversation)
Hmmm, it's not like Richardson hasn't drawn heaps of nudie ladies for the Prog before. Outlier was full of them. I think Frank's 'jotter' remark was probably in the context of noting a style of nude which approximates a largely fact-free adolescent fantasy, the 'feminine' version of the thick-necked veiny males with which he populates his strips: it's part of a consistent style, which as Frank notes, he does very well. Increasingly well, in fact - his work has loosened up marvellously since the hyper-dense lines of stuff like Community Officer Joe/Rage Hard or very early Grey Area.
But Frank probably prefers the rosy pillowy curves of a John Burns, the bare feet and oh-so grazeable shoulders of an Ian Gibson, or the cheeky gravity-compliant underwear-dimpled flesh of a Simon Fraser. Although not those of the men themselves. I assume. Uhh, where was I? Projecting, obviously.
Not every artist draws everything equally to everyone's tastes - I'd take a Burns lady over a Richardson one, but a Richardson genetically-modded multi-limbed alien killing machine over a Burns one any day. It's okay to say so - but I agree, we all need to be careful how we word criticism when it's public and permanent.
wot he said.
Quote from: Steven Denton on 21 August, 2018, 11:59:52 AM
The drawings in my school books were awesome! (I also read it as a shorthand for a type of drawing and didn't think it was particularly insulting. I mean it would be harsh in a review but not in a conversation)
The only drawing I can remember in my school book was
that one of Joe Pineapples in an early episode of The Black Hole.
Quote from: sheridan on 21 August, 2018, 04:48:48 PM
Quote from: Steven Denton on 21 August, 2018, 11:59:52 AM
The drawings in my school books were awesome!
The only drawing I can remember in my school book was that one of Joe Pineapples in an early episode of The Black Hole.
My exercise books were full of spaceships and robots. Come to think of it, that might explain my teenage inability to chat up girls...
I still have an englishjotter that the teacher 'dissing' my crude drawing inside the cover.... nothing like the dissing I regularly got from the art teacher mind 😒
I've actually read this Prog now as part of my post holiday catch up.
As well as captions to move the plot along in Dredd, which I won't comment on again, the thing that didn't sit well with me was pulling Tek Judge Morrow out of thin air as the man behind the Skeletons' powers, with no investigation what so ever (a quick text panel doesn't count.)
I agree that that last panel is great.
I have got to stop saying The Order is baffling as at this point it is probably down to me not paying enough attention.
The Thiller and Mechastopheles were actual ok, which I was a little surprised at.
Having already read this thread, it was no surprise [spoiler]Kymm and RBF weren't dead, but the reason for it was.[/spoiler] Best thing in the Prog for me.
So overall a pretty good Prog, I thought.