Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

[TordelBack]

I think you're a bit confused as to what happens in the movie, SIP, although I accept that you're far from alone in your interpretation, so maybe the confusion is on my side...

First off, the bit in RotJ, where Luke is wailing on Vader like he's an asthmatic practice dummy? That's where he gives into the power of his anger, his innate dark side, in response to his failure to protect Leia's identity. He almost kills Vader, taking the quick easy path, until Palps interrupts and he realises what's going on.

In TLJ, in the last of the three versions of his visit to Ben's bedside, the true one, he sees the terrible future Ben represents, the threat to everything and everyone he loves, and for a second the quick, easy path beckons again. And again he turns away from it. But this time, Ben has seen his moment of temptation, and everything goes to shit. The point is, however, that he doesn't give in.

I can't see that as anything but completely consistent.

Link to shitty cammed version of the scene.

[IndigoPrime]

The difference in ROTJ is by taking the difficult path, he emerges victorious. In TLJ's flashbacks, his decisions cause untold pain and misery, and so it's no wonder he then wants nothing to do with anything else at that point.

[SIP]

No confusion whatsoever, though I can understand that peoples interpretations will differ. He does snap in jedi and attacks his father when provoked, but he stops short on his own volition.....the amount of provocation luke has had at this point is fairly extreme as he's actually physically witnessing the destruction of the rebellion, the death of all his friends and is then threatened with the corruption of his sister.....and he still ultimately controls himself and takes the noble path.

I'm not sure if that level of provocation draws a parallel with luke actively going to Kylo's bedside and considering his murder in a moment of weakness because of what he "senses" in Kylo.  It's just not equivalent threat.

This also doesn't go on to justify lukes subsequent protracted behaviour and the disregarding of his family, friends and the fate of the galaxy.

[SIP]

Luke is also aware sensing the future is not entirely reliable. The difference between witnessing the destruction of everything and lashing out, ultimately displaying self control and self sacrifice, and acting on a feeling, that may or may not happen, leading to  considering premeditated cold blooded murder of your nephew seem poles apart to me.

Anyway, arguing interpretations and points of view seems fairly non-constructive. I don't see Luke Skywalker in that film, others do. Fair enough!

[Link Prime]

100% with SIP on Luke's portrayal in TLJ.
All topped off with a death scene more ignoble than an alka seltzer dissolving in a jar of warm tramp piss.

Pew Pew to the rest of ya! 

[TordelBack]

I don't think Luke goes to Ben's bedside with the intention of killing him, any more than he surrendered at Endor with the intention of killing Vader. He's peering into his mind to see what's going on - and what he finds terrifies him. The parallel being drawn here is with Anakin's fall (fueled by visions of doom), and possibly his own foolish, pointless rush to Bespin (which was the right thing to do nonetheless). Who knows to what extent Luke has come to trust the snippets the Force shows him?

Note also that it is the mechanical hand that holds the sabre, unlike at Endor, but he looks at its whirring gears just the same, and reaches the same conclusion: he won't take the easy path.

His response to events, to delivering his nephew up to corruption, the loss of his other students to either the dark side (the elusive Knights of Ren) or death, exactly as Obi-Wan and Yoda did before him, is enough to convince him that he personally, and the Jedi Order itself, are the fecking problem. I can see that.

Again, I find a hero who is tempted but resists, who despairs but finds hope again, far more interesting and believable than one who remains unchallenged since the triumphs of his early 20s.

EDIT: sublime imagery there, Link!

[SIP]

If nothing else, I guess this debate only serves to show the opposing views of Star wars fans everywhere right now.

I completely understand your arguments, and I can appreciate that it works - for you, but I respectfully wholesale disagree with them. It's just not Luke Skywalker. 

People can level the odd argument of "that's the interpretation of the character that you've constructed in your head"....well of course it is, based on 40 years of my experience with him. Just the same as everyone else!

Some find the direction it took exciting and interesting, I didn't. The fact that it's caused so much debate and polarisation could be seen as an indicator that something is off, many obviously share the same sentiments.

And they aren't all the same idiots posting hate videos on YouTube.

Hopefully episode 9 restores balance.  Let me know when you see it! 

I'm bowing out now as, like new Star wars, I'm endlessly repeating myself. Think I've covered my thoughts pretty extensively. I'll let someone else have a go.

[wedgeski]

I quite enjoyed Luke's character in TLJ, but have given up trying to convince anyone else of that. As soon as I report my feelings on the film to someone new, they immediately go on a tirade about Luke as if there's nothing else I could possibly dislike!

[SIP]

I quite enjoyed Luke's character in TLJ, but have given up trying to convince anyone else of that. As soon as I report my feelings on the film to someone new, they immediately go on a tirade about Luke as if there's nothing else I could possibly dislike!

Personally, I have no tirade to hurl at anyone, I'm merely expressing an opinion and partaking in a discussion on the Last Jedi in a thread about "The Last Jedi". I thought that was the whole point?

I would say again, if you like it, great, I'm pleased that some people do. Genuinely. I'd rather it had a happy audience than no audience.  I'm just  not one of them.

[Dandontdare]

I'm fighting with Tordelblock on this - to have Luke as a saintly white-knight figure would have been deathly boring - his doubts, mistakes and (although I hate the word in this context) journey, are what makes Luke a character rather than a cipher, and makes TLJ an interesting film rather than just a cgi spectacle or merch-advert. He's always been flawed, but comes good in the end. I honestly can't see him having an "incredible about face" or "fundamentally change his belief system" - that probably stems from an overly simplistic (mis)reading of his original character, and a refusal to accept that there has been a looong gap between the movies - events happen and people change, but it's all consistent and it's all explained.

[SIP]

Why does anyone expressing an opposing view to others get levelled with "confused" or "overly simplistic (mis)reading" allegations?

Guys, could you be any more patronising and condescending?

I am neither. You just have a different opinion. I can accept that, can we play nice?

[SIP]

.....and I can well accept that it's been a looooong time for the character - I've lived it! I was 10 when I first saw Return of the Jedi, I was 44 when I saw The Last Jedi, believe me, I know that time has passed.

Other than seeing potential darkness in Kylo, did I miss the detailed description of everything that had happened to Luke in the 30 years that jaded him so? What was fully detailed and explained in the film? If it was all in the film, we wouldn't be having the debate. I saw it twice.....it's not all explained in the film beyond him reacting to the fate he saw for Kylo.

And as argued at length, I DON'T think it's consistent. That's  exactly my opinion, I think it's inconsistent.


Anyway......the more I try to get out, the more they suck me back in. Lunch time 

[JOE SOAP]

For me I have to ask the question the film-makers/audience after The Force Awakens were left with:

Why would Luke Skywalker vanish to an unknown location for a decade and remain incommunicado from his friends and family? What would make him choose to do that and how hard would it be to turn him around?

A personal failing and loss of faith is one of the few convincing character dilemmas that would drive him to do such a thing otherwise it's about resorting to plot contrivances rather than dramatic character reasons to keep him in force-silent mode on that island for so long.

Should he be a prisoner of the plot/antagonist or a prisoner of his own conscience?

I know which one I prefer and I can definitely see someone as passionate as Luke take such a personal sense of failure* to the end point: He wouldn't turn to the dark side, he would shut down.

You can argue the degree to how well the idea is executed but I think it's the best and more interesting reveal to any others I've heard raised as alternatives.

*unconsciously kill the problem with a lightsaber out of fear/anger, as he almost did before.

[TordelBack]

Why does anyone expressing an opposing view to others get levelled with "confused" or "overly simplistic (mis)reading" allegations?

The only point where i see possible confusion (and I accept that I may be the one confused here) is in the reading of the specific flashback scene itself: I think a lot of people's views of the final (true?) version of those events is coloured by the previous iterations: Kylo's dark side Luke in particular, my first viewing of which gave me exactly those "Luke would never do that!" vibes I see expressed in this argument.  What I see in Luke's final confession is fear and momentary weakness instantly replaced by shame, rather than the anger-fueled machiavellian malevolence of the earlier version. 

Here's a half-decent mishmash of all three versions of bedside scene, Luke's self-serving original one included (although I note bits are missing). I think the direct contrast between the second and third is my central point.

Not believing those events are in character for an older version of OT Luke, I can accept that as a point of view, and it does suggest that the filmmakers didn't achieve their aim, as I understand it.  The confusion I refer to is in really what that aim was.  For myself, I saw an older Luke I could completely believe, and like SIP, that guy has been living in my head for 40 years.       

[wedgeski]

I quite enjoyed Luke's character in TLJ, but have given up trying to convince anyone else of that. As soon as I report my feelings on the film to someone new, they immediately go on a tirade about Luke as if there's nothing else I could possibly dislike!

Personally, I have no tirade to hurl at anyone, I'm merely expressing an opinion and partaking in a discussion on the Last Jedi in a thread about "The Last Jedi". I thought that was the whole point?

I'm not sure how you read that as being directed at you, but I assure you it wasn't.