Man that cover, while I LOVE Jake Lynch's Dredd that cover is WAY too busy and all the signs (which are clearly the point) are a bit much for this old man's etes. Still Jake Lynch draws the heck out of Dredd...
Speaking of loving Dredd man this story is fantastic. The interaction between Vega and Dredd reminds me of his early exchanges with Anderson. Vega is such a fun character "Can I come in and warm myself on the glow of your righteous fury?" one of my favourite lines for a while! On top of that the chase is fun, the action compelling. Seriously whats not to love about this. Top Dreddage.
Speaking of top thrills Grey Area is blindin' this Prog. The satire is pretty Millians is so on the nose but the delivery is fresh and exciting and I wonder whether the Grell story will come to a head here. Superb stuff.
Speaking of superb stuff I'm enjoying this new Alienist story more than its predecessors. Its immense fun and has a nice ending to boot.
Speaking of ending to boot in Grey Suits Blake delivers his attack and Uncle Pat deliever his typical on the nose commentry. Its a little in your face without the unabashed violence to hide behind but the punchline, after a family murder, makes it all worth it.
Speaking of family murder Hunted ends this week and as an episode its pretty good, if a little cackling made man shows us quite how evil he is by... well I'll let you read it. Pretty weak thrill over all but feels set up for more so lets see what happens next time hey.
Speaking if next time hey, yes I have been listening to way too many Space Spinner 2000 episodes laterly and the quality of this Prog reminds me that good as it was back in the day 2000ad still provides a sign of the times and I can't wait for next week.
(http://i.imgur.com/aigwsW2.jpg)
That's a brilliant cover. I think all the signs work just fine, and I like the 1977/40 one.
A pretty good end to Hunted I thought.
My only issue with the cover is the colour of the '2000AD' logo.
It looks a bit empty and lost.
The Lynch droid is fast becoming one of my favorite Dredd artists. I'm loving seeing his artwork evolve as it goes on, getting better all the time.
A long Mega-Epic with Lynch and Rufus sharing art duties would probably make my eyes explode - get on it, Tharg! ;)
The cover works better in that image than it does on paper, but I like it. A bit of colour is always welcome.
Hunted ends well but Grey Area remains the highlight. This looks like the confrontation that the series has been building up to.
Greysuit isn't for me.
I'm really glad how good Grey Area has been, which more than makes up for Greysuits. I try giving it a go every time it comes back but everytime it works hard to remind me how bad it is (imo). Alienist is actually doing a good job of keeping it interesting. I still think the concept is oversubscribed in 2000ad but its engaging and the art is fab. I was more than ready for Hunted to end, it just feels all a bit unnecessary and the Rogue character cameos (other than the TG) feel forced. Dredd meanwhile ticks on at a fair pace. I'm really pleased with the way Carroll is handling it and the confidence he has in owning the character. So one total clunker, some alright stuff, a good Dredd and Grey Area shining above the rest.
Only read Dredd so far, but what a rollicking good adventure it's turning out to be!
Great stuff from the Caroll droid! :thumbsup:
Great to hear that Hope is back next Prog! :)
QuoteI AM FEAR AND AGONY. I AM ANTAGONIST DEFINED ... I AM THE WRITER OF YOUR CONCLUSION, 'PROTAGONIST'. I AM THE MASTER OF YOUR NARRATIVE!
The Hunter, The Grievous Journey Of Ichabod Azrael, prog 1905
No doubt who the villain is in
Greysuit. As Lee and Herring remind us, it's the
business man, in his suit and tie*. And Bowler hat.
As Dr
Green explains,
Greysuit 'sees things in
black and white', although the Johnny Sahib sequence is painted in
lurid primary colours and brush strokes broad enough to placate Tharg's legal dept. Mike Carroll's credit on the forthcoming Indigo Prime probably involved going through John Smith's script, changing the names to
Porpoise Square and
Harvey Doctor.
No greater subtlety in
Hunted,
The Alienist, or
Grey Area. Grell's a dramatised Trump tweet, and Weatherall and Kestra strive for the grandiloquence of Lecter or Blofeld. As is by now customary, the latter falls hilariously short, signing off with
'THE KEY TO ENDING THIS WAR IS ELSEWHERE OUT THERE ...' It's tautologically awesome, man.
This week's episode of
Paradox Vega does away with tired notions of heroes and villains completely, in order to better explain how
crazy awesome Paradox Vega is. There's some guy called Tom; I suppose he's a
sort of villain, because he tried to explain his motivation to Paradox Vega's sidekick (some guy called Dredd).
As usual, her sidekick just
stood around,
listening, so it was up to
Paradox Vega to save the day by talking a lot and being
awesome. This is the second time Paradox has saved Dredd, who's so old and useless he wears a seatbelt in the H-wagon (Vega doesn't!). I don't think she even had to steal that surfboard - the kid probably gave it to her, for
being awesome!It's a thematic sequel to
Titan, another story about a girl with a mohawk annoying Dredd while he stands still, falls over, or does nothing.
Every Empire Falls was also about Dredd doing very little, although that was about Dredd dying, waking up, then pushing a button, whereas
Titan was about Dredd falling over, getting beat up, then
not pushing a button.
In the eighties, Tharg's droids brought us strips with heroes who behaved like villains. Now they innovate again, bringing us a strip without heroes or villains - just characters
being awesome! **
* A flaming faggot ends his marriage, but I'm not touching that one, so simply ponder whether the slightly impractical use of a burning log as a murder weapon is a variation on Roald Dahl's frozen joint of meat - which was then consumed by dinner guests, rather than by flames. As noted previously, this feels very like Accident Man.
** Like Poochie. She even has a surfboard, and her eyes are like shades.
Someone get Frank a hug! :lol:
Quote from: dweezil2 on 09 August, 2017, 10:19:54 PM
Someone get Frank a hug! :lol:
It's not really criticism; just a bunch of stuff I noticed.
Speaking of which, has the Traitor General been given a name? Or is Captain Kestra just his pirate name?
I mean, that would be a big deal, wouldn't it? Finding out a significant character's name, after 30 years?
Pretty sure it's not his name but the name of someone he usurped. I seem to recall that was stated in the first episode. Unless I read that wrong.
The clue is that he's a general but he goes around calling himself a colonel.
Quote from: Frank on 09 August, 2017, 10:48:36 PM
It's not really criticism; just a bunch of stuff I noticed.
Yeah, seriously lads - Frank has obviously gone so far as to read this stuff, so it can't be criticism as it is currently understood.
Double post apologies.
So, Chopper shot the 'Fox backwards carrying a wounded surfer, and won Skysurf 7 for MC-1. Dredd locked him up.
Then Chop crossed the Cursed Earth and the Pacific Ocean on a flying plank, and won a creditable 2nd in Supersurf 10. Dredd hesitated briefly about shooting him in the back.
Paradox Vega, a known criminal, ignores umpteen direct orders and warnings, escapes her restraints, and Dredd tells Control to do what she asks. And this is before she out-Choppers Chopper.
I suppose it's nice to see a return to the era of Odd Couple Dredds, but you have to wonder if that rejuvenation was more than bone-deep.
I sort of wondered about that too, but I see it as Dredd having bigger fish to fry, and she has proven herself.
In normal circumstances he'd have her locked up, I'm sure (or at least he'd try). And when it's finished, I think he may still attempt to do so.
Quote from: TordelBack on 10 August, 2017, 05:43:44 PM
... you have to wonder if that rejuvenation was more than bone-deep.
Dredd's like Steed in
The New Avengers; standing off to one side, occasionally commenting on the action, while younger, sexier characters handle the rough and tumble.
I used to think this sidelining of Dredd, focusing on their own characters, was due to young(er) writers being intimidated by and deferring to John Wagner. Now I think it's probably more a case of Dredd just not being the sort of character they find interesting to write. *
I
really don't hate Paradox Vega - she's a fun character who allows Michael Carroll to write in the amiable, absurd comic register that suits him best - but bumbling, stumbling, Do-nothing Dredd (being told what to do and needing saved by SJS Judge Gerhardt or Vega) is an embarrassment.
Maybe the Dreddless
Tales From Megacity One, is the way to go with the main strip.
* It's unfair to stifle the creativity of writers who would never in a million years come up with a character like Dredd (or write the kind of story that suits him best) by saddling them with this awkward, impenetrable legacy character.
This isn't about the talented Michael Carroll - Dredd's a passenger in most post-Day Of Chaos stories. Dredd's marginal to a Wagner story like Bender, but that's because - like The Midnight Surfer and Requiem For A Heavyweight - he's hardly in it. When Dredd does appear in that story, he isn't falling over and needing to be saved..
That's a very good point.
However Michael Carroll is also capable of writing good Dredd stories as well. Carousel being one obvious example, and also that one where some perps find him in a sleep machine and are so scared of him that they handcuff themselves before he wakes up. If only they were all like that.
Pat Mills says in his book that his experience of editing boys' comics taught him that characters who actively make the action happen are popular, and those who are passive are not. Dredd is not supposed to be the sort of person who stands around while the story happens around him.
Cover: Sorry, not having a pop at Jake Lynch's incredible pencil work, but that plethora of signs make it a bit of a mess. The logo disappears completely! I prefer this draft version (http://2000ad.com/assets/pimg/00/1d/77.png), far clearer.
Dredd: Some interesting discussion on this thread about the roles of Dredd and Vega. Personally I'm OK with a bit of role inversion now and again so it's cool to see Dredd playing the stooge for once. Yes I can understand the criticism that Vega's a bit full-on AWESOME but we also know that in the world of Dredd a gruesome fate is seldom far away (and don't forget that last time Vega got too cocky, Dredd shot her in the leg). Anyway the story is absolutely singing along so I'm not inclined to begrudge it a few indulgences.
(Plus, Vega is the first new recurring character to appear in Dredd since I got back on board with 2000 AD at Christmas, so it's good to see her)
The Alienist: Good, very Sapphire and Steel. Liked the sudden appearance of the [spoiler]lorry[/spoiler] on the new page. Could maybe be written with a touch more black humour?
Greysuit: Extraordinary.
Grey Area: Good stuff again, it doesn't bother me too much that the premise is such a thinly-disguised parody of the current global immigration crisis - it's only a template, there are enough personal touches to carry the stories on their own merits.
Hunted: Er... and that's it? Underwhelming. Kind of hoping 'THE END' means 'THE END' and that Rennie, Holden et al will move on and give us the top thrills we know they can deliver.
Hope replacing Hunted next prog should make for three exceptional strips (with the current Dredd story and Grey Area), the nicely-developing Alienist and... the never un-interesting Greysuit. Optimism reigns!
Should clarify that I have no problem with Vega - she's fun, and Marshall draws her with real verve here. It's Dredd's easy tolerance of a Cursed Earth rapscallion I find difficult - not that he doesn't have form in this regard, just that it's been a while since Spikes, Fergee, Henry Ford and even the Foul Smelling Bearded Snake Woman. When you see Dredd issuing just a mild reprimand to Beeny, Logan and Roake in 'Elusive', grudgingly accepting Harvey's abilitues, or taking time to tolerate Vienna's tea habit, it's a big deal. Taking a back seat to thus'un seems to have come relatively easy.
Quote from: TordelBack on 11 August, 2017, 01:09:05 PM
Should clarify that I have no problem with Vega ...
Me neither; love the brick and the enormous puppy. Carroll's a fine writer, Vega's a fun character, and this is a well written story*.
Richard's Pat Mills quote concisely summarises my frustration with the way
all modern Dredd writers** tend to tag Dredd onto the stories they want to tell alongside the kind of characters they want to write as a sort of plus one.
* I think last week's all-talk episode was unnecessary, but killing your darlings is harder than it sounds.
I mentioned Williams and Titan in my previous post specifically because I greatly admire the writer and that story in particular. Dredd's still a passenger in that story, though.
Yup, passive Dredd is a pet hate of mine too. "In the old days", you'd have plenty of stories where Dredd only appeared in the first or last panels, issuing a warning (by way of introduction) or handing out cube time (by way of bitter conclusion) to people who the reader had got to know but that he'd only just briefly encountered, and that was fine. I'd actually offer Carroll's 'Lion's Den' story as a good modern example, letting Joyce and Armitage get on with it to good effect; as opposed to the preceding 'Blood of Emeralds', where Joe seems to be a WAG on Joyce's tour of the Ould Sod.
And this isn't really a Carroll thing, it's more general: nowadays Dredd often seems to want to tag along with the non-Dredd focus of the story, rather than encountering non-Dredd persons-of-interest as he goes about his bloody and preferably pro-active business.
Quote from: James Stacey on 09 August, 2017, 01:01:40 PM
Alienist is actually doing a good job of keeping it interesting. I still think the concept is oversubscribed in 2000ad but its engaging and the art is fab.
I'm not sure what you mean by this - the concept of a psychic woman in Victorian / Edwardian Britain using her powers to manipulate a weak-willed man for cover as she investigates paranormal mysteries?
Quote from: Frank on 11 August, 2017, 08:46:10 AM
Maybe the Dreddless Tales From Megacity One, is the way to go with the main strip.
Nah, call it Judge Dredd: Mega-City One ;)
Quote from: Frank on 09 August, 2017, 10:48:36 PM
Speaking of which, has the Traitor General been given a name? Or is Captain Kestra just his pirate name?
I mean, that would be a big deal, wouldn't it? Finding out a significant character's name, after 30 years?
It took 30 years to give him a motivation for being a traitor, you'll have to wait another 30 to find out his name!
Right guys.....is there anyone else in the cal-hab district ( Ayrshire division ) having mega problems with the deliveries of the weekly prog and the monthly meg?
I am sick to the back teeth of the local posties delivering my subscription progs 4, 5 or even 6 days late every week now !!!
Its now Friday and I am still awaiting prog 2043. tomorrow I should have the magazine and prog 2044 but I doubt it. As I work all day I am very rarely home when the postie arrives , which can be from 12 noon to 4 pm, so I am told.
So does anyone else have issues with the Royal Mail ??? I would be interested to know Cheers rant over.
Judge Burns going back on patrol >>>>
Quote from: JUDGE BURNS on 11 August, 2017, 09:29:33 PM
Right guys.....is there anyone else in the cal-hab district ( Ayrshire division ) having mega problems with the deliveries of the weekly prog and the monthly meg?
I am sick to the back teeth of the local posties delivering my subscription progs 4, 5 or even 6 days late every week now !!!
Its now Friday and I am still awaiting prog 2043. tomorrow I should have the magazine and prog 2044 but I doubt it. As I work all day I am very rarely home when the postie arrives , which can be from 12 noon to 4 pm, so I am told.
So does anyone else have issues with the Royal Mail ??? I would be interested to know Cheers rant over.
Judge Burns going back on patrol >>>>
I share your pain.
I am also in Ayrshire - mentioned before on other Prog threads. I'd say I get 1 out of every 4 Progs on the Saturday, if I'm lucky, and it's slowly but surely worsening.
I got in touch with the ever helpful new(ish) sub-bot Oliver on Wednesday (nothing riles more than not having a sub Prog even by the newsstand release day!) and he sent me my Prog 2043 on Thursday, 1st class so it arrived yesterday - still no sign of the original item though?!
He says the Progs are sent out Thursday/Friday before release but they do not have any control beyond that point. My point is that the Prog used to arrive 99% of the time on the Saturday and more importantly it was something TO LOOK FORWARD TO.
I got in touch with Royal Mail earlier in the year and they said it is for the sender to bring up any delivery issues, but then the Prog is sent 2nd class, so it is only their "aim" to deliver in 2 to 3 working days (do they even count Saturday as a "working" day? It would certainly be interesting to see the delivery targets and actual records of the Kilmarnock office, never mind our local one!).
I mean, just what are they doing with them? My regular postie is on holiday this week so I just put this one down to the random postie shoving it through the wrong door, but yours too? Hmmm.
My sub runs out with the new Meg and Prog 2048 and I'm afraid that's it for subbing for me after a great many years. I'd rather just get it from WH Smiths on the Wednesday (where I'm sure it will be 99% of the time) so that I can once again have something TO LOOK FORWARD TO!
...instead of perpetual disappointment... I know it may seem silly, or pedantic, but this last year subbing with the crappy postal service has sullied my enjoyment of the Prog slightly.
On a cheerier note, my 11 yo son is a confirmed believer now after I've foisted a few GN's on him!
We used to read Dredd together over the last few years but my younger son (8 now) can't get into it - he prefers the funnies, currently reading all my old Cor!! annuals after ploughing though all the Whoopee!, Shiver & Shake ones etc etc, plus we still get The Beano (on "Readly", a wonderful invention that you wonder who actually makes any money from?). Also we are about halfway through Charley's War but I can't find where I've stashed the next box full of Battles! So I gave him the first book of Dan Dare which he also loved. He's also loved the Misty and Monster books, plus he's been through all the old Eagle/Scream stuff from Hibernia.
Older sons fave is Strontium Dog, having breezed through the 5 books of the original collection then I fished out all the right progs for him and he is completely up to date (when is it coming back he was asking? I made an educated guess at Christmas!).
Now he's onto the Dredd case files from where we left off at the end of the third one, so he's a lucky boy having just finished The Apocalypse War (gave him the IDW colo(u)r reprint book for a bit of a treat).
However it's always been a bit jarring over recent years with a bit of sudden no frills adult content in the Prog (and more so the Meg) so I will have to start re-vetting the content as he moves forward unfortunately.
If Rebellion want to reach readers his age (as Tharg bangs on about in reply to earthlets letters) then they might want to think about these unnecessary plot points - hey, I'm no prude but as much as I could give my 11 yo the first volume of America to read, I would have no choice but to make him wait, AT LEAST a couple of years before reading Fading of the Light...
Probably not the best place to tell that story (I'll happily be pointed toward an existing thread saying something similar), but I wanted to give a bit of relief to my doom laden previous post (although the end of this one ain't much better LOL).
Signs of the Times indeed.
John Wagner said he was writing a new one at the moment.
Christmas seems like a good bet, as it sounds like it would make for a good jumping on story.
HA! Just patting the young 'un on the back there again for finally "getting" Tooth and he wanted to show me a "funny bit" in the Dark Judges book (the IDW coloured one, also awesome).
"GAZE INTO THE FIST OF DREDD!" Ah, how we laughed, that line will NEVER get old LOL.
How do your 8 and 11 year-olds feel about reading black and white comics?
While I sympathise with your predicament I'm not sure I'd describe the scene you're referring to in America 2 as an unnecessary plot point. It's the motivation for Bennett's decision to do Total War's bidding, and also allows a greying of the lines in that it shows Justice Department dealing with the offender. I'm sure it would have been possible to move the story along in a different way, but it's a powerful piece of storytelling nonetheless.
Quote from: Richard on 12 August, 2017, 10:14:08 AM
How do your 8 and 11 year-olds feel about reading black and white comics?
Totally fine - my youngest used to mention that he preferred the colour, but changed his tune after starting my back catalogue IPC/Fleetway funnies - they both agree the stories are funnier than they are today!
I've always told them a good story is a good story whatever - I'm sure they would still prefer the colour, but the old black and whites are what they are, although I have to say IDW have done a sterling job on the stories I mentioned above, this is obviously never going to happen for the thousands and thousands of old 1 and 2 page IPC funnies (nor do I think I would want it to).
Postie just been, with my last weeks 2000ad (Prog 2043) and the new one AND the Meg - it's a miracle, and I just cannot fathom out this bloody postal service around here?!!?
Wish I could pull off that trick! After strong initial interest in Ro-Busters/ABC Warriors when he was younger, my own 11-year old can't be arsed with 2000AD - big Beano fan though. Still, I'm waiting on the results of the paternity test.
My 7-year old daughter is a huge fan of Lumberjanes, so my line doesn't necessarily end here.
The rape in America 2 has never sat particularly well with me as an element, but as we already had the forced abortion of a mutant child in America 1, I think it was well within the parameters of what a reader could expect from the story.
Meanwhile, the rest of this (last?) week's prog:
Cover is absolutely great, Lynch on top form, but alas I walked by it twice in the shops: actually left and came back later because I thought it hadn't been shelved yet. The logo is as good as invisible. Red would have helped.
Alienist: good stuff this! Coveneny's art has loosened up a treat and the premise is more enjoyable now it's established, rather than feeling like the setup for a farce. I know it has Beeby on at least one of the keyboards, but it might be fun if it tied into Rennie's Absalom or Caballistics Inc in some loose way. And I appreciate how stereotypical-comics-nerd that sounds.
Hunted: I do like this series, but a few weeks back the assembling of so many diverse pieces seemed to become an end in itself: if Venus is going to be dragged back into things, maybe she could do something. Moving the action even further off NuEarth... I dunno. That said, I thought the previous run was excellent, and there was lots to like in this one: not least the energetic feast that is the Holden/O'Grady combine.
Grey Area:Continues to shine. A strip that has grown and grown from what I felt were inauspicious beginnings. Harrison was born to draw this stuff, selling scale, weirdness and grunge perfectly. And if we're going to make plots out of the headlines, please let it be like this and not like...
Greysuit: I should keep my mouth shut here, I really should, but I'm in a bad humour and I do not like this strip. It's childish rubbish, and not in a good way, and so far beneath Pat's abilities that I keep imagining Tharg finding it in one of Steve McManus' compulsory-publish inventory drawers.
Among this week's bowler-hatted parade of stupidity, we have the death of a national celebrity during/following a burglary, where no autopsy was carried out, and no mortician was engaged. Now goodness knows this is small beer compared to invisible ninjas and psychologically-induced invulnerability, but when the strip is about covert assassins and establishment cover-ups, I think it's reasonable to expect that bit at least to be vaguely thought out.
Dear Tharg, please release Higgins to draw something worthy of his talents, and get Pat back on Savage.
Quote from: Timothy on 12 August, 2017, 10:30:44 AM
While I sympathise with your predicament I'm not sure I'd describe the scene you're referring to in America 2 as an unnecessary plot point. It's the motivation for Bennett's decision to do Total War's bidding, and also allows a greying of the lines in that it shows Justice Department dealing with the offender. I'm sure it would have been possible to move the story along in a different way, but it's a powerful piece of storytelling nonetheless.
True, I'm not meaning that specifically per se (although it's this scene that I am unable to let my son read and it would be pointless to try to censor the story somehow around this, and something I most definitely will NOT do anyway) it's more the swears, willies and tits that I feel are unnecessary for 2000ad - OK maybe I am being a bit prudish, I remember sneaking a look at EPIC when I was his age, probably younger.
Still, a couple of years and he'll no doubt know more about anything than I thought I did at his age.
Ro-Busters / ABC Warriors next I think if he wants a break from churning through Dredd (or until I deem it beyond his years...). Will give him The Lawless Touch actually - after I've read it through first, natch! More of this old stuff in the Meg please, even though there's a lot of 10 year old reprint in the floppy I do feel as if it is all pretty fresh to me!
Thanks for the answer, as I had been wondering about whether today's kids still bother with b&w any more. Good to know that they do.
In fairness, America and it's sequel were both in the Megazine, which has always been marketed to older readers.
Quote from: Richard on 12 August, 2017, 01:51:52 PM
Thanks for the answer, as I had been wondering about whether today's kids still bother with b&w any more. Good to know that they do.
In fairness, America and it's sequel were both in the Megazine, which has always been marketed to older readers.
Glad you pointed out as I thought I was misremembering which bits got published where - apart from a few lapses (sex issue, etc) 2000AD has always been more sellable to kids, religious/'moral' extremists notwithstanding.
Quote from: user2000 on 12 August, 2017, 07:49:30 AM
I got in touch with Royal Mail earlier in the year and they said it is for the sender to bring up any delivery issues, but then the Prog is sent 2nd class, so it is only their "aim" to deliver in 2 to 3 working days (do they even count Saturday as a "working" day? It would certainly be interesting to see the delivery targets and actual records of the Kilmarnock office, never mind our local one!).
I mean, just what are they doing with them? My regular postie is on holiday this week so I just put this one down to the random postie shoving it through the wrong door, but yours too? Hmmm.
Doesn't look like fun working for Royal Mail these days, from this cached page (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tXTB5_46vW8J:www.royalmailchat.co.uk/community/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D1%26t%3D69639+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk) - couldn't find any reporting of delivery targets met, but there's certainly friction in Kilmarnock sorting office...
Quote from: sheridan on 12 August, 2017, 02:58:53 PM
Quote from: Richard on 12 August, 2017, 01:51:52 PM
Thanks for the answer, as I had been wondering about whether today's kids still bother with b&w any more. Good to know that they do.
In fairness, America and it's sequel were both in the Megazine, which has always been marketed to older readers.
Glad you pointed out as I thought I was misremembering which bits got published where - apart from a few lapses (sex issue, etc) 2000AD has always been more sellable to kids, religious/'moral' extremists notwithstanding.
Again, also true - but I think we kid ourselves a little bit. 2000AD is just not AS sellable to kids as it used to be in a LONG time.
I can't think of many specific incidents (although I am willing to go for a trawl through) but I can clearly remember numerous times over even the last couple of years where I have confirmed in my mind that I cannot allow my 10/11/12 yo son to read this at the moment.
Recent case in point - Prog 2041 - Tharg tells the star letter writer we should be pushing the prog onto the next generation. This a week after Greysuit starts back, with a synopsis involving killing a paedo and then onto the main story involving a sheep shagger! Sorry folks, I can't be giving my 11 yo this! (I do like Greysuit myself though, even if it's a bit overly wordy at times)
As I said earlier too many swears, willies and tits - and most of the time for no good reason. Now I KNOW the comic is a different beast to when a lot of us grew up reading it, but there was none of that in the 80s/early 90s.
Or at least it was disguised better and wasn't so blatant.
Quote from: TordelBack on 12 August, 2017, 11:09:45 AM
Greysuit: I should keep my mouth shut here, I really should, but I'm in a bad humour and I do not like this strip. It's childish rubbish, and not in a good way, and so far beneath Pat's abilities that I keep imagining Tharg finding it in one of Steve McManus' compulsory-publish inventory drawers.
Among this week's bowler-hatted parade of stupidity, we have the death of a national celebrity during/following a burglary, where no autopsy was carried out, and no mortician was engaged. Now goodness knows this is small beer compared to invisible ninjas and psychologically-induced invulnerability, but when the strip is about covert assassins and establishment cover-ups, I think it's reasonable to expect that bit at least to be vaguely thought out.
Dear Tharg, please release Higgins to draw something worthy of his talents, and get Pat back on Savage.
I'd presume that the EVIL POWERS THAT BE can easily dodge/fake or buy out the relevant parties?
Quote from: Leigh S on 12 August, 2017, 05:53:05 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 12 August, 2017, 11:09:45 AM
Greysuit: I should keep my mouth shut here, I really should, but I'm in a bad humour and I do not like this strip. It's childish rubbish, and not in a good way, and so far beneath Pat's abilities that I keep imagining Tharg finding it in one of Steve McManus' compulsory-publish inventory drawers.
Among this week's bowler-hatted parade of stupidity, we have the death of a national celebrity during/following a burglary, where no autopsy was carried out, and no mortician was engaged. Now goodness knows this is small beer compared to invisible ninjas and psychologically-induced invulnerability, but when the strip is about covert assassins and establishment cover-ups, I think it's reasonable to expect that bit at least to be vaguely thought out.
Dear Tharg, please release Higgins to draw something worthy of his talents, and get Pat back on Savage.
I'd presume that the EVIL POWERS THAT BE can easily dodge/fake or buy out the relevant parties?
I'm working on the assumption that this was all just a dream Pat Mills had.
Quote from: user2000 on 12 August, 2017, 03:37:08 PM
Prog 2041 - Tharg tells the star letter writer we should be pushing the prog onto the next generation. This a week after Greysuit starts back, with a synopsis involving killing a paedo and then onto the main story involving a sheep shagger!
That appeal for younger readers struck me as odd too*, but the tone and subject matter of stuff like
Hope and
Brink seem more likely obstacles to younger readers than Ben Willsher's cock(s).
Trying to produce something parents feel happy sharing with their kids is tough. For example, the chapter of
America you're happy handing to Junior contains two
nasty murders that would have other parents cancelling their subscriptions.
There's no point limiting the type of stories today's writers can tell in a futile attempt to make the comic accessible to an audience that no longer exists. **
* The question of whether 2000ad should try and defy the exodus of small people from print has bedevilled the reigns of at least 5 Thargs. By the time Fading Of The Light saw print, the vast majority of readers held driving licences; by the time Diggle-Tharg decided to concentrate on shoring up the base, most readers had mortgages. I thought the matter was settled.
** If there was still a market for adventure comics for ten year olds, someone would be publishing one. They're not putting out those TV and toy tie-ins for toddlers because they think they're good.
The comic doesn't have a future if it doesn't attract new readers. Where do you think they're going to come from?
Quote from: Frank on 12 August, 2017, 06:28:57 PM
Quote from: user2000 on 12 August, 2017, 03:37:08 PM
Prog 2041 - Tharg tells the star letter writer we should be pushing the prog onto the next generation. This a week after Greysuit starts back, with a synopsis involving killing a paedo and then onto the main story involving a sheep shagger!
That appeal for younger readers struck me as odd too*, but the tone and subject matter of stuff like Hope and Brink seem more likely obstacles to younger readers than Ben Willsher's cock(s).
Trying to produce something parents feel happy sharing with their kids is tough. For example, the chapter of America you're happy handing to Junior contains two nasty murders that would have other parents cancelling their subscriptions.
There's no point limiting the type of stories today's writers can tell in a futile attempt to make the comic accessible to an audience that no longer exists. **
* The question of whether 2000ad should try and defy the exodus of small people from print has bedevilled the reigns of at least 5 Thargs. By the time Fading Of The Light saw print, the vast majority of readers held driving licences; by the time Diggle-Tharg decided to concentrate on shoring up the base, most readers had mortgages. I thought the matter was settled.
** If there was still a market for adventure comics for ten year olds, someone would be publishing one. They're not putting out those TV and toy tie-ins for toddlers because they think they're good.
Exactly...
And exactly why I'm happy to let my son read tooth from 30 odd years ago no bother.
America 1 is not a patch on America 2, but we could split hairs all day on this (is perhaps America 1 a 12A compared to the 15 rated America 2?) - I am certainly no religious or moral nut - I just don't want to be the breeder of one :D
Quote from: Richard on 12 August, 2017, 07:16:49 PM
The comic doesn't have a future if it doesn't attract new readers. Where do you think they're going to come from?
Exactly...
Quote from: user2000 on 12 August, 2017, 07:17:41 PM
Quote from: Frank on 12 August, 2017, 06:28:57 PM
Quote from: user2000 on 12 August, 2017, 03:37:08 PM
Prog 2041 - Tharg tells the star letter writer we should be pushing the prog onto the next generation. This a week after Greysuit starts back, with a synopsis involving killing a paedo and then onto the main story involving a sheep shagger!
That appeal for younger readers struck me as odd too*, but the tone and subject matter of stuff like Hope and Brink seem more likely obstacles to younger readers than Ben Willsher's cock(s).
Trying to produce something parents feel happy sharing with their kids is tough. For example, the chapter of America you're happy handing to Junior contains two nasty murders that would have other parents cancelling their subscriptions.
There's no point limiting the type of stories today's writers can tell in a futile attempt to make the comic accessible to an audience that no longer exists. **
* The question of whether 2000ad should try and defy the exodus of small people from print has bedevilled the reigns of at least 5 Thargs. By the time Fading Of The Light saw print, the vast majority of readers held driving licences; by the time Diggle-Tharg decided to concentrate on shoring up the base, most readers had mortgages. I thought the matter was settled.
** If there was still a market for adventure comics for ten year olds, someone would be publishing one. They're not putting out those TV and toy tie-ins for toddlers because they think they're good.
Exactly...
And exactly why I'm happy to let my son read tooth from 30 odd years ago no bother.
America 1 is not a patch on America 2, but we could split hairs all day on this (is perhaps America 1 a 12A compared to the 15 rated America 2?) - I am certainly no religious or moral nut - I just don't want to be the breeder of one :D
Goodness me, I'm quoting myself, but I have been down the pub all afternoon, so I make that excuse...
Although I say America 2 would be a 15, 30 years ago it may have been an 18? Watched Jaws with my kids the other week, 12A now, "A" back in the day - older one loved it as did the youngest -until the floating head appeared in the boat. That was the end of the film for him - an experience there though LOL, but not paedos or sheep shaggers (and I'm not singling out Pat Mills here, I thoroughly enjoyed both his recent books).
Great cover by Lynch and as the banner title is unreadable, it's a good time to ditch it.
I did wonder however, why does Dredd keep a big red dildo on his handle bars? ;)
Quote from: Richard on 12 August, 2017, 07:16:49 PM
The comic doesn't have a future if it doesn't attract new readers. Where do you think they're going to come from?
I didn't say the comic isn't or shouldn't try to attract
new readers. I said
ten year olds stopped buying comics thirty years ago. *
Readership of
2000ad has fallen precipitously for the last thirty years**. It only exists today at the indulgence of a sincere and enthusiastic individual, who seems dedicated to maximising the potential audience through expansion into other territories and media.
None of these areas of expansion -
the R rated 2012 film, IDW Dredd, Rebellion's US mini-series, the Rogue Trooper game, the proposed TV show - seem targeted towards
juvenile audiences. You could conclude that Tharg just hates kids, or you could surmise that he knows to whom
2000ad IPs appeal.***
* If anyone wishes to argue that ten year olds would buy an adventure comic if only someone published such a title, I have no more factual basis for refuting that assertion than there is evidence to support that assertion.
** 100,000 in 1990, 50,000 in 1995, 25,000 in 2000, 15,000 in 2013: http://tinyurl.com/yd49dr6n
*** Although the latest Thrillcast suggests the Scream/Misty Hallowe'en special hopes to attract younger readers as well as nostalgic adults.
Quote from: Leigh S on 12 August, 2017, 05:53:05 PM
I'd presume that the EVIL POWERS THAT BE can easily dodge/fake or buy out the relevant parties?
Arrange to have no autopsy/mortician just so that Blake gets to have J*mm* S*v*ll* burnt alive? Why would they bother? It's not like he was following orders, what's the motivation for them? Just kill him.
I have no doubt it
could be done, but in a story about assassins and cover-ups, where we've had to endure seeing a Saville proxy in the prog, might it not be nice to address this sort of thing rather than just chuck out a throwaway setup for some nasty wish-fulfilment vengeance?
But frankly nothing that appears is going to please me about this strip other than 'THE END'.
Quote from: Frank on 12 August, 2017, 08:49:34 PM
* If anyone wishes to argue that ten year olds would buy an adventure comic if only someone published such a title, I have no more factual basis for refuting that assertion than there is evidence to support that assertion.
WH Smith took 10,000 copies of the first issue of STRIP when it re-launched for the high street with Volume 2. I don't have numbers for subs, dedicated comic stores, and smaller high street distributors, but I'd be surprised if the total print run wasn't around the 15K mark... and that was a title with no advertising budget and no brand recognition.
Everyone involved knew what needed to happen from there: the comic needed to come out with metronomic regularity, and everyone went the extra mile to make sure that happened. Everyone except the publisher.
Seven issues were delivered on time, on spec, thanks to a lot of people doing a lot of extra work for little or no money.
We believed it would work... but sadly, we'll never know, thanks to the towering incompetence of one man (assisted by the more mundane incompetence of another, supposedly drafted in to help with the first).
If I
had a million quid, I'd give it a go myself. :-/
Quote from: Richard on 12 August, 2017, 07:16:49 PM
The comic doesn't have a future if it doesn't attract new readers. Where do you think they're going to come from?
As Frank says,
new readers are the important bit. That doesn't necessarily mean 2000AD has to aim itself at 12 year olds again.
I'd argue that there are more adults who
used to read comics than there are kids who are open to reading comics these days.
Potentially a bigger audience if that market can be tapped into?
That said, I appreciate that if no kids are reading comics, the chances of said kids reading comics as adults is... limited.
Not really sure what my point is, now I think about it... :-\
Quote from: Jacqusie on 12 August, 2017, 07:56:14 PM
Great cover by Lynch and as the banner title is unreadable, it's a good time to ditch it.
Must say, I've grown to love the banner. I vote to keep it!
Quote from: Woolly on 13 August, 2017, 04:03:04 PM
I'd argue that there are more adults who used to read comics than there are kids who are open to reading comics these days
100,000 of whom used to read the Galaxy's Greatest every week.*
Quote from: Woolly on 13 August, 2017, 04:03:04 PM
That said, I appreciate that if no kids are reading comics, the chances of said kids reading comics as adults is... limited
I'm not sure one comic can transform the fortunes of a medium**. Kids didn't suddenly stop buying comics in 1991 because they were crap - John Wagner makes the point that readership has been in an irreversible decline ever since he joined the industry, in the late sixties. ***
You don't need new customers entering the market to increase market share, though.
The latest Rajar figures show Radio Four has increased its audience by around half a million, but Da Yoot haven't started listening to John Humphrys on the school bus. Middle aged listeners, radicalised by Facebook and Brexit, have swapped Chris Evans and GMTV for
Today.
* ... and the 100,000 who were reading when The Horned God took its bow weren't the same 100,000 who read the debut of the Angel gang.
** The same downward trend hit US comic companies over the same interval, and continues today. Early issues of rebooted titles still sell well, but the average Marvel or DC comic reaches a similar proportion of the US population as 2000ad does in the UK. And that's with $300 million adverts for their products hitting screens every six months.
*** The reasons for said decline are numerous, but telly, home video, and then games seem the most likely thieves of pocket money and time.
Quote from: user2000 on 12 August, 2017, 07:49:30 AM
Quote from: JUDGE BURNS on 11 August, 2017, 09:29:33 PM
Right guys.....is there anyone else in the cal-hab district ( Ayrshire division ) having mega problems with the deliveries of the weekly prog and the monthly meg?
I am sick to the back teeth of the local posties delivering my subscription progs 4, 5 or even 6 days late every week now !!!
Its now Friday and I am still awaiting prog 2043. tomorrow I should have the magazine and prog 2044 but I doubt it. As I work all day I am very rarely home when the postie arrives , which can be from 12 noon to 4 pm, so I am told.
So does anyone else have issues with the Royal Mail ??? I would be interested to know Cheers rant over.
Judge Burns going back on patrol >>>>
I share your pain.
I am also in Ayrshire - mentioned before on other Prog threads. I'd say I get 1 out of every 4 Progs on the Saturday, if I'm lucky, and it's slowly but surely worsening.
I got in touch with the ever helpful new(ish) sub-bot Oliver on Wednesday (nothing riles more than not having a sub Prog even by the newsstand release day!) and he sent me my Prog 2043 on Thursday, 1st class so it arrived yesterday - still no sign of the original item though?!
He says the Progs are sent out Thursday/Friday before release but they do not have any control beyond that point. My point is that the Prog used to arrive 99% of the time on the Saturday and more importantly it was something TO LOOK FORWARD TO.
I got in touch with Royal Mail earlier in the year and they said it is for the sender to bring up any delivery issues, but then the Prog is sent 2nd class, so it is only their "aim" to deliver in 2 to 3 working days (do they even count Saturday as a "working" day? It would certainly be interesting to see the delivery targets and actual records of the Kilmarnock office, never mind our local one!).
I mean, just what are they doing with them? My regular postie is on holiday this week so I just put this one down to the random postie shoving it through the wrong door, but yours too? Hmmm.
My sub runs out with the new Meg and Prog 2048 and I'm afraid that's it for subbing for me after a great many years. I'd rather just get it from WH Smiths on the Wednesday (where I'm sure it will be 99% of the time) so that I can once again have something TO LOOK FORWARD TO!
...instead of perpetual disappointment... I know it may seem silly, or pedantic, but this last year subbing with the crappy postal service has sullied my enjoyment of the Prog slightly.
UPDATE on late deliveries, finally tracked down my regular postie ( very reliable this one ) he says any Ayrshire post come via the KILMARNOCK depot, which receives it from the Glasgow depot, So the Ayrshire delays seem to be coming from Kilmarnock. I am awaiting a response from their chief postie for a reply. will update when I hear of anything.
Quote from: Frank on 12 August, 2017, 06:28:57 PM* The question of whether 2000ad should try and defy the exodus of small people from print has bedevilled the reigns of at least 5 Thargs. By the time Fading Of The Light saw print, the vast majority of readers held driving licences; by the time Diggle-Tharg decided to concentrate on shoring up the base, most readers had mortgages. I thought the matter was settled.
Missed this earlier as the font was too small to read on the computer I was on at the time - I've been reading 2000AD since I was eighth and at no time have held a driving licence or a mortgage. Just saying...
Quote from: JUDGE BURNS on 25 August, 2017, 10:39:41 PM
Quote from: user2000 on 12 August, 2017, 07:49:30 AM
Quote from: JUDGE BURNS on 11 August, 2017, 09:29:33 PM
Right guys.....is there anyone else in the cal-hab district ( Ayrshire division ) having mega problems with the deliveries of the weekly prog and the monthly meg?
I am sick to the back teeth of the local posties delivering my subscription progs 4, 5 or even 6 days late every week now !!!
Its now Friday and I am still awaiting prog 2043. tomorrow I should have the magazine and prog 2044 but I doubt it. As I work all day I am very rarely home when the postie arrives , which can be from 12 noon to 4 pm, so I am told.
So does anyone else have issues with the Royal Mail ??? I would be interested to know Cheers rant over.
Judge Burns going back on patrol >>>>
I share your pain.
I am also in Ayrshire - mentioned before on other Prog threads. I'd say I get 1 out of every 4 Progs on the Saturday, if I'm lucky, and it's slowly but surely worsening.
I got in touch with the ever helpful new(ish) sub-bot Oliver on Wednesday (nothing riles more than not having a sub Prog even by the newsstand release day!) and he sent me my Prog 2043 on Thursday, 1st class so it arrived yesterday - still no sign of the original item though?!
He says the Progs are sent out Thursday/Friday before release but they do not have any control beyond that point. My point is that the Prog used to arrive 99% of the time on the Saturday and more importantly it was something TO LOOK FORWARD TO.
I got in touch with Royal Mail earlier in the year and they said it is for the sender to bring up any delivery issues, but then the Prog is sent 2nd class, so it is only their "aim" to deliver in 2 to 3 working days (do they even count Saturday as a "working" day? It would certainly be interesting to see the delivery targets and actual records of the Kilmarnock office, never mind our local one!).
I mean, just what are they doing with them? My regular postie is on holiday this week so I just put this one down to the random postie shoving it through the wrong door, but yours too? Hmmm.
My sub runs out with the new Meg and Prog 2048 and I'm afraid that's it for subbing for me after a great many years. I'd rather just get it from WH Smiths on the Wednesday (where I'm sure it will be 99% of the time) so that I can once again have something TO LOOK FORWARD TO!
...instead of perpetual disappointment... I know it may seem silly, or pedantic, but this last year subbing with the crappy postal service has sullied my enjoyment of the Prog slightly.
UPDATE on late deliveries, finally tracked down my regular postie ( very reliable this one ) he says any Ayrshire post come via the KILMARNOCK depot, which receives it from the Glasgow depot, So the Ayrshire delays seem to be coming from Kilmarnock. I am awaiting a response from their chief postie for a reply. will update when I hear of anything.
Yup, I had also heard that there are major probs being brushed under the carpet at Kilmarnock. This has been going on for quite some time as well.
Didn't get last week prog til THURSDAY this week, so a day after I could have been enjoying it from WHS - the week before I got the prog and the meg on the Saturday.
No sign of Prog 2046 today of course.
I'm done with subbing anyway after all these years, 2 progs to go then I can look forward to getting my fix every Wednesday and not at some random time whenever the Royal Mail decide.
The other thing, I suppose, is that YOUNGER readers does not necessarily mean 8 to 12 years old.
A new reader could be twenty years younger than the current average readership age and still be a 16 to 20 year old who would (should) have no problem with adult tone, violence,nudity or sex.
(But I can't recall if Tharg was specifically calling out for young children to start reading or just people younger than us old cart-horses).
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 31 October, 2017, 02:22:28 PM
The other thing, I suppose, is that YOUNGER readers does not necessarily mean 8 to 12 years old.
A new reader could be twenty years younger than the current average readership age and still be a 16 to 20 year old who would (should) have no problem with adult tone, violence,nudity or sex.
(But I can't recall if Tharg was specifically calling out for young children to start reading or just people younger than us old cart-horses).
It was more a rhetorical flourish, in the course of a wider call to
'push the prog into the hands of your friends, your relations, your children, your children's children, and your children's children's ... well, you get the idea' (2041).