Game of Thrones Season 7: It's A Bit Nippy Out (SPOILERS)

[radiator]

Like the season as a whole, the finale was a real mixed bag. Once again, the littany of logical and narrative inconsistencies detracted a lot from my enjoyment.

The obvious Littlefinger 'twist' did nothing to redeem the Sansa/Arya plotline in my eyes, and Littlefinger's plan still makes no sense at all. The conflict between Sansa and Arya still seemed incredibly forced and unconvincing to me, and the TV show version of Littlefinger is now reduced to someone who just likes creating friction and conflict seemingly for the hell of it - his wider purpose and motivation got totally lost along the way. It seems like we're supposed to assume that it was his speech about 'assuming the worst' of others that finally makes the penny drop for Sansa, when we know that she's known all along what a shit he is. Why does he seem so shocked when it all unravelled, when it was, at best, an incredibly tenuous and risky plan to begin with? Makes him look really stupid. And why does Bran only chip in with that vital piece of info now? Makes no sense, does my head in.

What are we supposed to make of Jon's refusal to drop his support for Dany at the expense of the truce? Because it comes across that he's an idiot who's willing to doom the entire world because of his own pride/honour.... Again, I'm not sure that's what the writers want us to take away from it... It comes across like we're supposed to ultimately admire him for it...

Crucially, I don't know about anyone else, but I can't help but feel that the decision to use the zombie dragon to bring down the wall has kind of broken the story irreparably. It's now very hard not to see Jon, Dany and Tyrion as being fully responsible for the arrival of the White Walkers, and had they just all stayed at home and nothing the world would have been better off, and again I really don't think this is intentional on the part of the writers.

There's also other little distracting things, such as Euron's heel turn when he sees the wight. We're led to believe this was a ploy by him and Cersei planned ahead of time... So did they know about the wight in advance? Whaa?

Why would Bran think Jon being born in Dorne would make him a Sand rather than a Snow, when Jon's place of birth has never been in dispute...? Everyone knows he wasn't born in the North.

Stuff I really liked:

All the Theon scenes - especially his heart to heart with Jon. The beach scene was a little odd, but I loved the shot of him collapsing on the beach with the sun setting behind the cliffs in the background. Despite his season arc feeling very repetitious (how many times does he have to man up?) Alfie Allen just sells it so well, and Theon remains among my favourite book and show characters - I can't think of an actor better suited to the role.

I appreciated how the dragonpit scenes were shot with the sun very low in the sky - it made the later transition to full on winter more convincing.

It's a little thing, but I really liked the scene with Jaime riding alone as the snow starts to fall. It's a quiet, but for me very memorable, moment from the books that I assumed we'd never see on screen (I actually assumed that on the TV show we'd never see actual winter south of Winterfell).

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

I get the feeling that GRR Martin gave the production the broad strokes of the unpublished plot, just key plot points and they had to figure out the details themselves. The Winterfell stuff pretty much confirmed it for me.

[radiator]

I get the feeling that GRR Martin gave the production the broad strokes of the unpublished plot, just key plot points and they had to figure out the details themselves. The Winterfell stuff pretty much confirmed it for me.

Oh yeah, completely. I think that seasons 6-8 will bear very, very little resemblance to how things play out in the books, other than only the broadest of broad strokes.

I don't think many of the events that happened in seasons 6 and 7 will happen in the books at all, and those that do, the circumstances will be totally different (eg in the books the wall will fall in a totally different way). See also Stannis burning Shireen it'll definitely happen in the books, but will make a lot more sense. There will be no zombie dragon or 'Night King' - they are TV show inventions, and there will be a lot less reunions between characters in the books - a lot of them will never see each other again.

I also think there'll be a lot less crossover between the political and supernatural elements of the story - eg I don't think Cersei or Jaime will live to see the arrival of the White Walkers.

[JamesC]

I think there's some nitpicking going on here. I think most of these questions can be answered without too much work on the viewer's part.

Like the season as a whole, the finale was a real mixed bag. Once again, the littany of logical and narrative inconsistencies detracted a lot from my enjoyment.

The obvious Littlefinger 'twist' did nothing to redeem the Sansa/Arya plotline in my eyes, and Littlefinger's plan still makes no sense at all. The conflict between Sansa and Arya still seemed incredibly forced and unconvincing to me, and the TV show version of Littlefinger is now reduced to someone who just likes creating friction and conflict seemingly for the hell of it - his wider purpose and motivation got totally lost along the way. It seems like we're supposed to assume that it was his speech about 'assuming the worst' of others that finally makes the penny drop for Sansa, when we know that she's known all along what a shit he is. Why does he seem so shocked when it all unravelled, when it was, at best, an incredibly tenuous and risky plan to begin with? Makes him look really stupid. And why does Bran only chip in with that vital piece of info now? Makes no sense, does my head in.

The whole scene was theatre. It's the sisters showing they're not to be messed with and doing it in front of all the lords of the North. They're flexing their muscles.
Littlefinger wants to be as close to power as possible. He's a gambler that tries to stack the odds in his favour. At this stage he feels his best power move is to get Sansa set up as Queen of the North. A certain amount of friction has always existed between the sisters and they played on this to lure Littefinger into doing just enough to overplay his hand. They could have called him out at anytime but Sansa wanted him to know that she'd beaten him. He'd been duped and she was revelling in his moment of realisation. He was shocked because he'd been fooled into beleiving that Sansa was the sap he'd taken her for - she was rubbing his face in it. There's no reason to believe that Bran wasn't going along with this too. The speech about beleiving the worst wasn't what made the penny drop for Sansa but it was the moment that she felt was perfect for turning the tables.

What are we supposed to make of Jon's refusal to drop his support for Dany at the expense of the truce? Because it comes across that he's an idiot who's willing to doom the entire world because of his own pride/honour.... Again, I'm not sure that's what the writers want us to take away from it... It comes across like we're supposed to ultimately admire him for it...

Jon believes in the truth. He has faith that ultimately it's the best policy. He's well aware that it makes him look foolish in the eyes of everyone else but he believes in a new world. This is all in the script. He wants a new world with new rules.

Crucially, I don't know about anyone else, but I can't help but feel that the decision to use the zombie dragon to bring down the wall has kind of broken the story irreparably. It's now very hard not to see Jon, Dany and Tyrion as being fully responsible for the arrival of the White Walkers, and had they just all stayed at home and nothing the world would have been better off, and again I really don't think this is intentional on the part of the writers.

The wall was always going to be breached one way or the other. Otherwise the white walkers were never a threat. You seen how far the Night King can chuck a spear. One decent hit on a watcher with a spear or arrow would have been enough to raise a walker on the other side of the wall. Hell, who's to say he couldn't just raise the dead on the other side of the wall. He doesn't need physical contact to do so as shown at Hardhome.

There's also other little distracting things, such as Euron's heel turn when he sees the wight. We're led to believe this was a ploy by him and Cersei planned ahead of time... So did they know about the wight in advance?

Cersie and Euron know damn well that there's going to be conflict at the meeting and more likely than not Dragons. The 'these terrify' me speech could easily have been prepared for the dragon eventuality and repurposed for the walker threat. It didn't even need to be that well planned. He's a crafty bastard. A simple 'when things get edgy I'll pretend to dessert you' is all that need have been agreed.

Why would Bran think Jon being born in Dorne would make him a Sand rather than a Snow, when Jon's place of birth has never been in dispute...? Everyone knows he wasn't born in the North.

Maybe it's not the place of birth but the lineage that determines the name. You're from the loins of a north man you're a Snow, from. Dornish man you're a Sand? It's not really a big deal.

Stuff I really liked:

All the Theon scenes - especially his heart to heart with Jon. The beach scene was a little odd, but I loved the shot of him collapsing on the beach with the sun setting behind the cliffs in the background. Despite his season arc feeling very repetitious (how many times does he have to man up?) Alfie Allen just sells it so well, and Theon remains among my favourite book and show characters - I can't think of an actor better suited to the role.

I appreciated how the dragonpit scenes were shot with the sun very low in the sky - it made the later transition to full on winter more convincing.

It's a little thing, but I really liked the scene with Jaime riding alone as the snow starts to fall. It's a quiet, but for me very memorable, moment from the books that I assumed we'd never see on screen (I actually assumed that on the TV show we'd never see actual winter south of Winterfell).

I liked those bits too. In fact I thought this episode had some of the best acting I've seen full stop. Lena Headey was something else.

[JOE SOAP]

In his extended struggle to write the final books, GRRM is facing the same problems as the show in trying to lay the path to the ending and I suspect if the remaining books ever get finished, many of the things that are disliked about these final seasons will be present, albeit in an altered extended form, in the 'original' work.

GRRM enjoyed writing himself into a corner in the first 3 books and the 2 subsequent, less plot driven, books seem to imply a writer who's not too sure himself how to pull back from that and has tried to put off the inevitable story convergences for a while longer. He created a feeling in the early books that anything can happen and be emotional but there's only so many times you can kill off main characters to subvert an old trope until it too becomes predictable and tired. It's also hard to have a satisfying story that's just filled with surprises and surprise deaths till the end for the simple fact someone must survive and by simple process of elimination it became clear quite early on who they would more or less be. At some point it all has to come together but also, ironically in this case, be in some way predictable.

It's easy to criticise the tired old tropes of the show but will GRRM fare that much better?

[Leigh S]

I'm with you on all that but the sansa/Arya stuff, which still makes no sense to me, but Ill be watching back to see if it merits me revising my opinion - the problem is twofold

The sisters have to conspire to do this at some point they feel they wont be overheard - they then ahve to act it out in the hope they are being watched.  It's pretty elaborate, so they must have a reason beyond making Littlefinger feel smug... If they had been teasing out some information from him that proved his treachery, then such a charade might have been worth it.  Too often it felt like those scene were purely for the camera rather than rooted in the logical actions required to achieve the goal of unseating Baelish

AS it was, all they needed was for Bran to see ity, so they could have arranged that meeting and his death episodes ago. Now they might ahe been toying with him, but look at what he did - he killed their father and plunged the world into chaos that killed their siblings too... are you really going to play mind games in that situation?

[JamesC]

I'm with you on all that but the sansa/Arya stuff, which still makes no sense to me, but Ill be watching back to see if it merits me revising my opinion - the problem is twofold

The sisters have to conspire to do this at some point they feel they wont be overheard - they then ahve to act it out in the hope they are being watched.  It's pretty elaborate, so they must have a reason beyond making Littlefinger feel smug... If they had been teasing out some information from him that proved his treachery, then such a charade might have been worth it.  Too often it felt like those scene were purely for the camera rather than rooted in the logical actions required to achieve the goal of unseating Baelish

AS it was, all they needed was for Bran to see ity, so they could have arranged that meeting and his death episodes ago. Now they might ahe been toying with him, but look at what he did - he killed their father and plunged the world into chaos that killed their siblings too... are you really going to play mind games in that situation?

The whole plan is about turning the tables on Littlefinger and doing so with an audience there to see it. That makes the elaborate acting out worth while. I'm sure it's reasonably easy to have a 'private' conversation if you have Bran around and then you just act out everything else wherever with the understanding that Littlefinger, with his little birds and curtain twitching ways, will catch at least 80% of it.
Getting one over on Littlefinger - getting him on the hook and squirming, unable to talk his way out of his fate (giving him enough rope to hang himself) sends a powerful message to the other lords. Littlefinger has huge reputation as someone who always knows what's going on - someone it's not easy to trick. This whole scene says 'this is what happens to people who mess with us. If I can outwit Littlefinger I can outwit you.'

I actually really like how Sansa has come out of this. As she said, she's learnt a lot from Littlefinger.
There's a nice parallel with what happened to Arya. Arya had the shit beaten out of her but ended up learning to kick ass. Sansa was manipulated and used as a pawn by just about everyone. Now she's learned to be a chess player rather than a chess piece.

[radiator]

Again, James, I think you're misunderstanding my criticisms. You seem to think that I don't understand or am misinterpreting the plot somehow, when what I'm saying is that I don't buy it and I think it's bad writing.

The speech about beleiving the worst wasn't what made the penny drop for Sansa

Watch the scenes again. This is absolutely what happened. Sansa directly quotes this line back to him. Meaning we're supposed to totally buy all of the conflict between Sansa and Arya up to this point - they were only play-acting in the very final scene.

There's no reason to believe that Bran wasn't going along with this too

My point about Bran is that he knows Littlefinger betrayed Ned. He knows everything! And didn't immediately tell Sansa and Arya why?

Maybe it's not the place of birth but the lineage that determines the name. You're from the loins of a north man you're a Snow, from. Dornish man you're a Sand? It's not really a big deal.

Rhaegar wasn't Dornish. As I said, everyone knows Jon wasn't born in the North but he was raised a Snow regardless. I agree that it's not a huge deal, but it's another example of sloppy writing.

The wall was always going to be breached one way or the other....

It's been established in previous episodes that the wall is also a magical barrier that the White Walkers cannot cross - so some powerful spell or weapon is required to bring it down, otherwise they would have crossed it seasons ago. By losing the dragon to the White Walkers (in what ultimately ended up being a pointless exercise*) it firmly makes it the direct fault and responsibility of Jon, Dany and Tyrion - the three principal heroes of the entire saga - that the Walkers breached the Wall, and nothing they do from this point on will redeem or excuse this. It's their fault. And the show does not acknowledge this fact.... Do you honestly think that's good/satisfying storytelling?

*as Cersei has betrayed them anyway**

**Which anyone - especially Tyrion - should have been able to predict.

I'm copying and pasting a comment here from another site that really stuck out to me, and really nails the exact kind of weird logic/narrative and character/motivation problems that have really plagued this season. This is referring to episode 5:

And, shit, while I'm complaining about how rushed and ridiculous that last episode was: Jon nonchalantly tosses off about how Bran sees the army of the dead marching on Eastwatch. Parse that for a second. Bran, the brother Jon has thought has been dead for years now who has finally returned home. Jon has no interest in actually, you know, seeing him and also bizarrely accepts that Bran has visions of White Walkers with no explanation at all. Bran seems actively going out of his way to not let Jon know about his true heritage. AND Jon is receiving ravens from Winterfell, should know both Bran and Arya are back, his long lost family, but is like, meh, I gotta grab a wight. Cause, you know, nobody else can do that.

[JOE SOAP]

It's been established in previous episodes that the wall is also a magical barrier that the White Walkers cannot cross - so some powerful spell or weapon is required to bring it down, otherwise they would have crossed it seasons ago. By losing the dragon to the White Walkers (in what ultimately ended up being a pointless exercise*) it firmly makes it the direct fault and responsibility of Jon, Dany and Tyrion - the three principal heroes of the entire saga - that the Walkers breached the Wall, and nothing they do from this point on will redeem or excuse this. It's their fault. And the show does not acknowledge this fact.... Do you honestly think that's good/satisfying storytelling?

Tyrion requested Daenerys not go beyond the wall – both of whom have little idea of what the Walkers and the Night King can do.

[Leigh S]

But the play acting doesnt make him squirm - he isnt on any hook  - The public trial where he cant talk his way out of his fate can happen without any of the charades that, if anything, might tip him off that someting is awry.

All the play acting achieves is giving him more time alive thinking he is a winner, and more time to do something else damaging.  It achieves nothing at all and is potentially risky - Bran tells them what they need to know about his treachery, and no-one stops the sisters slitting his throat. 

If you found out the man who got your family killed is in your house nicking your last hobnob, would you keep him alive and in hobnobs for a few more weeks before doing him in?  you might want to make him sweat before he die, but they do the exact opposite

I'm with you on all that but the sansa/Arya stuff, which still makes no sense to me, but Ill be watching back to see if it merits me revising my opinion - the problem is twofold

The sisters have to conspire to do this at some point they feel they wont be overheard - they then ahve to act it out in the hope they are being watched.  It's pretty elaborate, so they must have a reason beyond making Littlefinger feel smug... If they had been teasing out some information from him that proved his treachery, then such a charade might have been worth it.  Too often it felt like those scene were purely for the camera rather than rooted in the logical actions required to achieve the goal of unseating Baelish

AS it was, all they needed was for Bran to see ity, so they could have arranged that meeting and his death episodes ago. Now they might ahe been toying with him, but look at what he did - he killed their father and plunged the world into chaos that killed their siblings too... are you really going to play mind games in that situation?

The whole plan is about turning the tables on Littlefinger and doing so with an audience there to see it. That makes the elaborate acting out worth while. I'm sure it's reasonably easy to have a 'private' conversation if you have Bran around and then you just act out everything else wherever with the understanding that Littlefinger, with his little birds and curtain twitching ways, will catch at least 80% of it.
Getting one over on Littlefinger - getting him on the hook and squirming, unable to talk his way out of his fate (giving him enough rope to hang himself) sends a powerful message to the other lords. Littlefinger has huge reputation as someone who always knows what's going on - someone it's not easy to trick. This whole scene says 'this is what happens to people who mess with us. If I can outwit Littlefinger I can outwit you.'

I actually really like how Sansa has come out of this. As she said, she's learnt a lot from Littlefinger.
There's a nice parallel with what happened to Arya. Arya had the shit beaten out of her but ended up learning to kick ass. Sansa was manipulated and used as a pawn by just about everyone. Now she's learned to be a chess player rather than a chess piece.

[JamesC]

Again, James, I think you're misunderstanding my criticisms. You seem to think that I don't understand or am misinterpreting the plot somehow, when what I'm saying is that I don't buy it and I think it's bad writing.

The speech about beleiving the worst wasn't what made the penny drop for Sansa

Watch the scenes again. This is absolutely what happened. Sansa directly quotes this line back to him. Meaning we're supposed to totally buy all of the conflict between Sansa and Arya up to this point - they were only play-acting in the very final scene.

There's no reason to believe that Bran wasn't going along with this too

My point about Bran is that he knows Littlefinger betrayed Ned. He knows everything! And didn't immediately tell Sansa and Arya why?

Maybe it's not the place of birth but the lineage that determines the name. You're from the loins of a north man you're a Snow, from. Dornish man you're a Sand? It's not really a big deal.

Rhaegar wasn't Dornish. As I said, everyone knows Jon wasn't born in the North but he was raised a Snow regardless. I agree that it's not a huge deal, but it's another example of sloppy writing.

The wall was always going to be breached one way or the other....

It's been established in previous episodes that the wall is also a magical barrier that the White Walkers cannot cross - so some powerful spell or weapon is required to bring it down, otherwise they would have crossed it seasons ago. By losing the dragon to the White Walkers (in what ultimately ended up being a pointless exercise*) it firmly makes it the direct fault and responsibility of Jon, Dany and Tyrion - the three principal heroes of the entire saga - that the Walkers breached the Wall, and nothing they do from this point on will redeem or excuse this. It's their fault. And the show does not acknowledge this fact.... Do you honestly think that's good/satisfying storytelling?

*as Cersei has betrayed them anyway**

**Which anyone - especially Tyrion - should have been able to predict.

I'm copying and pasting a comment here from another site that really stuck out to me, and really nails the exact kind of weird logic/narrative and character/motivation problems that have really plagued this season. This is referring to episode 5:

And, shit, while I'm complaining about how rushed and ridiculous that last episode was: Jon nonchalantly tosses off about how Bran sees the army of the dead marching on Eastwatch. Parse that for a second. Bran, the brother Jon has thought has been dead for years now who has finally returned home. Jon has no interest in actually, you know, seeing him and also bizarrely accepts that Bran has visions of White Walkers with no explanation at all. Bran seems actively going out of his way to not let Jon know about his true heritage. AND Jon is receiving ravens from Winterfell, should know both Bran and Arya are back, his long lost family, but is like, meh, I gotta grab a wight. Cause, you know, nobody else can do that.

I think it comes down to your point of view - I completely disagree with your interpretation of the Sansa scene. You see it as a penny drop, I see it, also as a moment of realisation, but of realisation that this is the moment she's been waiting for.
As for Bran (and most of these types of prophetic characters in fiction) you have to assume there is a reason. Once you accept this it's pretty simple to imagine what it may be. This is an important 'caterpillar' moment for Sansa. She's gone from a slightly odd young woman to a legitimate power player. Much better for her to go through this process and have this triumphant moment in front of her peers than for her to act on a tale told by her weird brother.

Also, the thing with the wall. As much as it may be established as a big bastard magical thing, it's equally well established by everyone who's seen the walkers that they are a threat and they will destroy Westeros unless they rally forces against them. It's hard to blame Jon, Dany or the rest for doing exactly that.

I'm not saying there aren't holes or that the writing is bullet proof but almost everything held up as a significant 'hole' seems to me like something that people have stuck their fingers through and tried to make into something bigger.

[JamesC]

Leigh, the more it transpired that Littlefinger had spent time around Sansa thinking he was playing but was actually the one being played, the more it discredits Littlefinger's intelligence and demonstrates that Sansa may well have your number without you knowing it. That's far more intimidating to any other would-be game players than a simple show of force.

[Leigh S]

But the only people involved are teh sisters and LF - how it plays out to everone else in that room would be identical.  I can see your argument that it makes his final moments more sour as he realises his latest play has been for nothing.... it seems a lot of effort and risk for a small additional kick in his ribs as he goes down, but I can see the logic - I suspect that with some more subtle writing and/or acting that could have come across a bit more explicitly for the likes of me!

Leigh, the more it transpired that Littlefinger had spent time around Sansa thinking he was playing but was actually the one being played, the more it discredits Littlefinger's intelligence and demonstrates that Sansa may well have your number without you knowing it. That's far more intimidating to any other would-be game players than a simple show of force.

[JamesC]

The speech about beleiving the worst wasn't what made the penny drop for Sansa

Watch the scenes again. This is absolutely what happened. Sansa directly quotes this line back to him. Meaning we're supposed to totally buy all of the conflict between Sansa and Arya up to this point - they were only play-acting in the very final scene.

To elaborate, I think that Sansa has wanted LF dead for ages. He's been a sometime ally, useful, even a comfort at times but ultimately she's known for years that he's a bad egg that needs killing (in some ways it mirrors Arya's relationship with the Hound. It seems like a friendship of sorts, but he's on her list the whole time). I think she's been waiting and stewing on this - biding her time. Arya has her kill-list, Sansa has LF.
The thing is, it's not just about killing him. She could do that anytime. She has to beat him - she has to set a trap and he has to trip it. The reason Sansa repeats the line is to tell him that this is the moment he tipped the trap - he almost killed himself by reaching too far.
None of this is about minimising risk or having a good strategy, it's about a revenge savoured. LF is indeed on a hook from the moment his name is mentioned in relation to the charges. It only takes a couple of minutes but his begging, his fast talking, his wise mouth can't save him. He's rendered impotent (Its no coincidence that the execution method is a slit throat, meaning he can't even spit out his last words).

[JamesC]

Sorry about all this posting. I'll stop in a minute! 

Basically, Sansa's motivations and overall plan aren't strategic, they're emotional. When the times comes to do the deed though, she's learnt enough to make the most of it. It makes for an effective demonstration to her peers.