Wonder Woman 2017

[Frank]

As soon as someone proves there's a paying audience for action films with female villains, The Rock will be wailing on Meryl Streep's face with a 2x4.

Fast and Furious' most recent outing was with a villainess I think.

Interesting. Did she give The Rock a doing?

[Rara Avis]

You don't have to have actually seen the movie (Kill Bill) though right?

Rogue Earthlet, could you perhaps start a new thread where you're enquired and then debate on wether you like a film or not?

[TordelBack]

As soon as someone proves there's a paying audience for action films with female villains, The Rock will be wailing on Meryl Streep's face with a 2x4.

Fast and Furious' most recent outing was with a villainess I think.

Which brings us neatly to Dredd (2012), a film where the slaughter is definitely equal-opportunities compliant and nobody went to see it, although I think it still fails the Bechdel test, so probably escapes the worst of the unternet's ire...

[Rara Avis]

The movie probably doesn't pass the Bechdel test but I think that there is no argument that Judge Dredd is a feminist icon.

[Rara Avis]

I stand corrected:

http://bechdeltest.com/view/3532/dredd_3d/

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/culture/2012/10/why-dredd-3d-gets-women-comics-right

[TordelBack]

I stand corrected:

http://bechdeltest.com/view/3532/dredd_3d/

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/culture/2012/10/why-dredd-3d-gets-women-comics-right

Ah, Kaplan and Ma-Ma talking about Anderson I forgot about. I also forgot that we knew Cathy's name - although we definitely don't know the Chief Judge's, so that one's out. Excuse for a re-watch!

Anyway, Ma-Ma skinning men was clearly entertainment, whereas Dredd executing Ma-Ma was obviously not.

[Rogue Earthlet]

Goodness, I've been accused of trolling, what would the reaction be if I replied to every message? As for violence I've never liked it being treated as entertaining.

Better stick to documentaries or 'real life' dramas then because just about every comic/action film is produced with entertainment in mind. Even a 'smart' film like RoboCop which features violence against both men and women – by men – is revelling in its depiction of violence.

Dramas that treat violence as bad do for me. Or satire.

[Rara Avis]

Re: Dredd Bechdel

I just thought about it in terms of the ex prostitute criminal Ma-Ma versus the virginal lawful Anderson so that was why I didn't think it would pass the test. I think I'm due a re-watch as well.

[Rogue Earthlet]

Is it still entertaining if it's women being slaughtered is my point.

Firstly, it should be noted that you've raised this issue in respect of a film you have not seen, primarily based on the fact that this film stands alone in its genre as having a female lead.  Violence against men is the norm in huge swathes of the media, but you've complained about it here alone, which, along with your frequent mention of "red pill" gives the strong suggestion you are a whiny misogynist.

Secondly, violence against women is the norm in cinema, and has been since it's creation.  Indeed, it is a trope in pretty much all human entertainment since the beginning of time to present women  as victims who exist to spur a male protagonist to action.  Its a function of the sacred feminine in the monomyth theory.  It's why Princesses Leah awards the medals.  That you don't know this, and seem to believe that women are not victims of violence, makes you appear a whiny misogynist.

Thirdly, women have, throughout history, been the actual victims of violence, primarily at the hands of men.  Historically they have been disenfranchised, regarded as property, and been the first to suffer in times of strife.  Yes, men have suffered too, but the role of women historically and what this means to us a society must be taken into account when deciding whether or not to continue to present women as victims or violence, or take steps to present them in more proactive and positive roles.

Question answered. Go see the film, or stop complaining about it.

I think I said WW is an example and mentioned characters like Xena, Red Sonja, Hit-girl etc. Funny, I just looked at the blog of arch MRA critic David Futrelle, in which he slags off the Red Pill, which he tells us he hasn't seen. Does that make him 'whiny'?

[Rara Avis]

YES!!!!

[Rogue Earthlet]

I think John Wick's wife died of an illness. It was the killing of his puppy that drove him over the edge.

We're definitely seeing more decent roles for women in the action genre than ever before I think.
Off the top of my head - The Hunger Games, Fury Road, Wonder Woman, Atomic Blonde (I haven't seen it but it's been getting pretty good reviews), the new Star Wars films, Valerian, Tomb Raider reboot.
Even Suicide Squad, while featuring an incredibly sexualised Harley Quinn was pretty much sold on the popularity of that character (and if last year's NYCC is anything to go by, she's become one of the most cosplayed characters of the last few years).

Expect to be told off for making a comment on a film you haven't seen.

[JOE SOAP]

Dramas that treat violence as bad do for me. Or satire.

RoboCop, Starship Troopers, even Kingsman are satires but they are also clearly made to be enjoyed as stylised bits of extreme, violent entertainment, so satire is a weak pretext to hide behind, for a purist. How do you square that?

[TordelBack]

Funny, I just looked at the blog of arch MRA critic David Futrelle, in which he slags off the Red Pill, which he tells us he hasn't seen. Does that make him 'whiny'?

Yes, it would (although I haven't read the piece so I don't actually know), but Futrelle's site is heavily skewed towards irony and humorous effect, and I do know that his cited objection dates back to the film's Kickstarter and the demonstrable filth (like Milo Yiannopoulos, Breitbart and MR sub-Redditors) who supported it - so he couldn't possibly be expected to have seen the thing when he started objecting to it.  There's some merit in a 'if they're for it, I'm ag'in it' approach.   

[Frank]

What harm is done?

I've never liked it ...

Not my question. What does it matter who dies, or how that's depicted, if no negative effect is produced?

[IndigoPrime]

Anyway, Ma-Ma skinning men was clearly entertainment, whereas Dredd executing Ma-Ma was obviously not.

The only bit of imbalance I found a bit weird – in the context of a deranged futuristic MC-1 – was that the gang seemed to be composed solely of blokes. (Although one might argue it's a position of power for her, and she feels they're essentially controllable cannon fodder, and doesn't want women in that position, given her own personal history.) But that http://bechdeltest.com thread sensibly discusses the movie as a whole in the context of gender, with only a few people (wrongly, in my opinion) grumbling that the interactions between women weren't meaningful.