Star Wars Episode IX

[broodblik]

Take Force Awakens.......if Kylo had been no relation to Han, and 90% of the rest of the story had played out the same, with han helping the resistance, and at the end he successfully blew up the thingamy without facing Kylo (robbing po of the boring trench run rehash), rey fights Kylo, all escape in the falcon, everyone parts ways. We have had mostly the same film, Han isn't dead. Find the "emotional" connection elsewhere in one of the other characters. In that version, I've had the fun of the OT character amd Disney get their nostalgia hit.....why did they need to kill him?

My understanding was that Harrison Ford wanted Solo to die.

[SIP]

Take Force Awakens.......if Kylo had been no relation to Han, and 90% of the rest of the story had played out the same, with han helping the resistance, and at the end he successfully blew up the thingamy without facing Kylo (robbing po of the boring trench run rehash), rey fights Kylo, all escape in the falcon, everyone parts ways. We have had mostly the same film, Han isn't dead. Find the "emotional" connection elsewhere in one of the other characters. In that version, I've had the fun of the OT character amd Disney get their nostalgia hit.....why did they need to kill him?

My understanding was that Harrison Ford wanted Solo to die.

In 1983 he did. He's denied in a filmed interview that he had anything to do with it in Force Awakens. That was just apparently the script that he was presented with.

I've had that one used a few times now, it's been denied.

As for actors driving how these films pan out, if that was the case maybe Mark Hamill would have had more joy on the set of Last Jedi. He spent the whole production protesting about how they were handling Luke......nobody paid any attention to what he wanted for his character.

[broodblik]

I would preferred if they did not use the original cast and really started from afresh.  The changing of directors and script writers did not help to create a nice balanced story-line.

[TordelBack]

That's two comments above that allude to making the OT cast members "bad asses". Who wants that?

The internet, apparently.  Apart from the races and genders of the new characters, and supposedly shocking* deviations from the laws of physics, the absence of a godlike steely-eyed Luke shooting green lightning from his fingers and smiting the Sithly with his unmatched lightsabre skills was one of the main objections to TLJ that I've seen in YouTube video after YouTube video.  The fact that that Ultimate Warrior Luke didn't appear in any other SW films either didn't seem to matter.

SIP, if I understand you, you'd have been happier with the Big Three being wheeled on for nostalgia purposes, and then wheeled off again, unharmed?  Really?  Even Luke?  What would it say about their characters that they didn't give their all to fight until evil was defeated?



*If you'd never watched a Star Wars film before.

[TordelBack]

Or to look at just Han: okay, say Han has no existing relationships with any of the characters, he just comes on board to help, quip, get punched, mocked, pull it out of the bag at the last minute, all that good Han stuff.  Then job done, he... leaves? Like he did after dropping Leia at Yavin?  Where does that leave his character, the journey he's been on?  Han's whole thing in the OT is that he learns the value of not walking away alone, of sticking around and being part of family.  Another objection to TFA is that it undoes this very thing by having Han and Chewie off on their own again... but this is shown as an aberration, a backsliding due to emotional pain, and Han's truest course is reestablished.

[JOE SOAP]

In 1983 he did. He's denied in a filmed interview that he had anything to do with it in Force Awakens. That was just apparently the script that he was presented with.

I've had that one used a few times now, it's been denied.

He may not have written it but he openly supported and liked the idea whether it was to happen in Episode 7, 8, 9...

"I think it's a fitting use of the character...I've been arguing for Han Solo to die for about 30 years, not because I was tired of him or because he's boring, but his sacrifice for the other characters would lend gravitas and emotional weight."

https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/movies/harrison-ford-why-han-solo-needed-to-die-but-indiana-jones-doesnt-20160323-gnoyk7.html

[SIP]

Or to look at just Han: okay, say Han has no existing relationships with any of the characters, he just comes on board to help, quip, get punched, mocked, pull it out of the bag at the last minute, all that good Han stuff.  Then job done, he... leaves? Like he did after dropping Leia at Yavin?  Where does that leave his character, the journey he's been on?

But we join Han when the galaxy is already facing the First Order, and he's off smuggling and swindling......while Leia is carrying on the good fight. So didn't they already establish that wasn't getting involved?

[TordelBack]

Bah, sorry SIP, added that point to the previous post while you were typing yours!   

[SIP]

In 1983 he did. He's denied in a filmed interview that he had anything to do with it in Force Awakens. That was just apparently the script that he was presented with.

I've had that one used a few times now, it's been denied.

He may not have written it but he openly supported and liked the idea whether it was to happen in Episode 7, 8, 9...

"I think it's a fitting use of the character...I've been arguing for Han Solo to die for about 30 years, not because I was tired of him or because he's boring, but his sacrifice for the other characters would lend gravitas and emotional weight."

https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/movies/harrison-ford-why-han-solo-needed-to-die-but-indiana-jones-doesnt-20160323-gnoyk7.html

Yes, I'm aware that he made those comments, but my argument is that Mark Hamill's protestations of what should happen to his character had no impact on what got made, why do we assume that Harrison Ford's did? His comments had no impact on Lucas during production of Return of the Jedi, and he was a massive star at that point.

And the point still stands, Ford said he had nothing to do with what was included in the scripting of the film. He just did what was given to him.

[SIP]

Bah, sorry SIP, added that point to the previous post while you were typing yours!   

Ha ha, no problem. Somewhere I lost a whole posting!

I was always in agreement with you TB, I didnt want them in the films. They should have started fresh. I think that their general inclusion has been to the detriment of these films.

So yes, "special guest star" appearances all around, except for luke who could have a more significant part, and I'm okay with him dying in the end.....he's effectively immortal anyway after all.

[TordelBack]

I was always in agreement with you TB, I didnt want them in the films. They should have started fresh. I think there general inclusion has been to the detriment of these films.

Definitely 100% agreement there.  I suspect this would have been how it went if Lucas had retained control, which might actually have happened if the internet hadn't spent 20 years telling him how much everyone hated everything he touched with his money-grabbing hack's hands. 

However, give the scale of the investment that was necessary to get SW away from Lucas and get movies made again, and the well-established conservative nature of its supposed 'fans', Disney took the sensible course, away from any hint of scary novelty: and to my mind the response to what I consider to be fresh thinking in TLJ shows they had made a shrewd choice.

As it is, I think our current disagreements come down to how flawed and abused we're prepared for our heroes to be, and still enjoy them.  The films allowed me to believe in a Han and Luke utterly broken by their failures with Ben, and believe in their ability to still be themselves, and to find their faith and resolve again.

[JOE SOAP]

In 1983 he did.

Sorry for the misunderstanding; I was referring to the notion that this was only a thought he had in 1983 but it seems he was for it all the time. The writers happened to agree. I've no doubt he would've gone along with whatever he was being paid to do as would Hamill. Hamill's personal caveat was he'd only agree to do the Sequels if Ford agreed to sign on.

[SIP]

That's hitting the nail on the head TB. I was happy with those characters being left in 1983. I don't want to see them brought low in these new films, it's jarring for me.

If they were to "pop up" in a joyful nostalgia way, then I could accept it "oh look it's han, that loveable rogue!.....bye han"..... but I'm struggling with a new generation of writers/directors dealing out repeated body blows to those characters, and portraying versions of their personalities that are entirely at odds with my own, long held, interpretation.

It's just sapping any enjoyment that I can get from the films.

[TordelBack]

It's just sapping any enjoyment that I can get from the films.

And that really is a shame: enjoyment is what these should represent.  I hope IX does something to reverse the situation for you. 

I didn't think the sequels-as-they-are would do anything for me (still less Solo!), but I think it helps that I have an overwhelming sense of personal failure in my own life, and seeing my childhood heroes experience something similar, resorting to hiding from the world and their families and friends, and then finding a way to return and keep going, and (hopefully) to see their fresh-faced successors triumph in their stead, has worked for me. Far from being depressing, the sequels have become the definition of optimism for me.

[Professor Bear]

In 1983 he did.

Sorry for the misunderstanding; I was referring to the notion that this was only a thought he had in 1983 but it seems he was for it all the time.

As I understand it, Lucas was the one who wanted to kill off Solo in Jedi, but he "did some tests" (presumably with focus groups or fellow scriptwriters/directors) and the response was hostile so he backtracked on it much as he did with many other ideas for the films, though some snippets of the original plan remain in the Jedi that was shot (Solo commenting "I feel like I'll never see her again" while looking at the Falcon, taking a dive to a gunshot in the Endor attack) and the idea that Solo might have been bumped off then became a fun trivia point about Star Wars in the following years.
How much Ford actually wanted the character to die is debatable because anecdotal evidence from others suggest he was quite happy with his work on Star Wars, and a far more likely scenario given how much JJ Abrams recycled in The Force Awakens from the OT production office bins is that JJ simply wanted to channel some of that pub trivia cache into his movie because JJA's track record in both tv and movies shows that he clearly believes that there's no such thing as "cheap" heat.