Another CBR top 15 including both Dredd and Anderson. (http://www.cbr.com/top-cops-the-15-best-law-enforcement-officers-in-comics/) Dredd is pipped by Jim Gordon? Anderson all the way down at 10? There is no justice ....
Hey it ain't that bad he beat the whole of the Green Lantern Corps!
James Gordon at number one? Ah well each to their own. I know who the number one lawman is!
That Dreddy!
Quote from: Tjm86 on 07 April, 2017, 05:48:03 PM
Another CBR top 15 including both Dredd and Anderson. (http://www.cbr.com/top-cops-the-15-best-law-enforcement-officers-in-comics/) Dredd is pipped by Jim Gordon? Anderson all the way down at 10? There is no justice ....
A bunch of goofy choices there. Dick Tracy doesn't even make the list (but Harvey Bullock
does), nor does Barry Allen (forensics gets no respect, despite the popularity of shows like C.S.I.?). But the important thing was they got top cops like Bishop, Code Blue, and Darkstars into an all-time-greatest list limited to just 15.
Patrolman Jim Harper makes the list based on only half a decade walking a street beat in Suicide Slum (despite the fact that most of the actual crime-stopping was done by his non-officially deputized alter ego The Guardian), yet is only ranked one lower than Judge Anderson on the list, even though she's saved the entire world (yes) from the Dark Judges and has had a 35+ year career?
Pfft. How many crimes has Jim Gordon prevented or solved without the help of a vigilante?
Quote from: Tjm86 on 07 April, 2017, 05:48:03 PMDredd is pipped by Jim Gordon
Quote from: Zarjazzer on 07 April, 2017, 08:14:11 PM
James Gordon at number one? Ah well each to their own.
I think Gordon is a more relatable character and he has been fighting crime for a really long time. And keeping the tradition of always cover Dredd's face doesn't do him any favours. I understand why but I have my dubiety about it.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 08 April, 2017, 05:55:42 PM
And keeping the tradition of always cover Dredd's face doesn't do him any favours.
Maybe it does, you never know. If he ever took it off, someone might be saying
"Put it back on! Put it back ON!" :lol:
Quote from: positronic on 08 April, 2017, 07:03:08 PM
Quote from: Sandman1 on 08 April, 2017, 05:55:42 PM
And keeping the tradition of always cover Dredd's face doesn't do him any favours.
Maybe it does, you never know. If he ever took it off, someone might be saying "Put it back on! Put it back ON!" :lol:
One of the very earliest Dredd stories did that. Belardinelli on art. Prog 7 or 8. Just before Robot Wars.
Quote from: Tjm86 on 09 April, 2017, 07:35:30 AM
Quote from: positronic on 08 April, 2017, 07:03:08 PM
Quote from: Sandman1 on 08 April, 2017, 05:55:42 PM
And keeping the tradition of always cover Dredd's face doesn't do him any favours.
Maybe it does, you never know. If he ever took it off, someone might be saying "Put it back on! Put it back ON!" :lol:
One of the very earliest Dredd stories did that. Belardinelli on art. Prog 7 or 8. Just before Robot Wars.
The story behind that one is actually something like I described. Up to that point, no series bible rule had been in effect that said that Judge Dredd's face must never be shown. When the artwork to the story came back to the editor, he looked at the face Belardinelli had drawn and said to himself "That looks
awful. We can't print THAT.", so a black
[CENSORED] sign was pasted over the face Belardinelli had drawn, and after that, it became an established rule that Dredd's face would never be shown. We know what Joe Dredd's face actually
looks like though -- he looks exactly like Judge Fargo, from whom he was cloned.
I was just kidding around there. Still, wouldn't it be interesting if someone found that original art page of Belardinelli's, and was able to carefully peel off the pasted-over
[CENSORED] sign so we could get a peek at what Dredd's face might have looked like, had the editor not deemed otherwise?
Quote from: positronic on 09 April, 2017, 09:08:07 AMWe know what Joe Dredd's face actually looks like though -- he looks exactly like Judge Fargo, from whom he was cloned.
That's another, somewhat negative aspect with the character. He comes off as a paper doll, ready to be replaced as soon as he expires.
Kudos to JD, number 2 is pretty cool, good on ya Joe. :thumbsup:
For a US-based comics website written by and for a primarily superhero-reading audience, I'm dead excited that Dredd got on the list at all - let alone at Number 2 - and then again that Anderson appears! I do like Brian Cronin's taste in general.*
*and was dead tickled to see Code Blue on the list, who were all over Thor comics when I first read them in the early 90s.
Quote from: AlexF on 10 April, 2017, 01:30:10 PM
... I do like Brian Cronin's taste in general...
Oh I didn't click it was Brian Cronin, that explains why its a pretty interesting list.
I miss 'Comics Should be Good' being its own thing. It was by far the best thing connected with CBR (well that and Robot 6) before CBR's rubbish redesign drove me away (by which of course mean until the redesign I didn't like and therefore couldn't be bothered to hang around to find the good stuff).
I miss his best of this and best of that votes, they made for such fun reading.
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 10 April, 2017, 01:41:16 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 10 April, 2017, 01:30:10 PM
... I do like Brian Cronin's taste in general...
Oh I didn't click it was Brian Cronin, that explains why its a pretty interesting list.
I miss 'Comics Should be Good' being its own thing. It was by far the best thing connected with CBR (well that and Robot 6) before CBR's rubbish redesign drove me away (by which of course mean until the redesign I didn't like and therefore couldn't be bothered to hang around to find the good stuff).
I miss his best of this and best of that votes, they made for such fun reading.
I like Cronin's other... what's the column? Anyone know? Something about Comic Book Myths or like that?
I know what you mean. One by one, comic media news sites have made themselves repugnant to me. Usually the website's so loaded with ad banners, streaming videos, pop-ups, and the like that it only wants to run on a computer where it can hog the browser all to itself -- otherwise its slow or hangs up. Or worse, blares some auto-running audio or video files. Not 2000 AD's of course. I'm just talking about CBR, Newsarama, Bleeding Cool, etc.
I'm amazed that anyone has the patience to click through one of those things.
For those intersted,the writers of "Comics should be good" started their own thing at Atomic Junk Shop,so you might want to check that out.
That's good to know!
Poor old CBR is in a pretty fallen state these days.
DREDD didn't debut until Prog . . . oh, remind me.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 09 April, 2017, 05:31:06 PM
Quote from: positronic on 09 April, 2017, 09:08:07 AMWe know what Joe Dredd's face actually looks like though -- he looks exactly like Judge Fargo, from whom he was cloned.
That's another, somewhat negative aspect with the character. He comes off as a paper doll, ready to be replaced as soon as he expires.
That's been explored. Kraken didn't fill the bill somehow, even though genetically, he's identical. They're individuals though, just like Rogue and Friday, even they shared the exact same DNA.
For that matter, go back as early as the Rico story.
Quote from: Smith on 12 April, 2017, 05:50:52 PM
For those intersted,the writers of "Comics should be good" started their own thing at Atomic Junk Shop,so you might want to check that out.
Oh wow that had completely passed me by. That looks great and more inmportantly well timed for a long slow weekend to catch up with it all.
Another refugee of CBR's showing their value that would have been stifled if there'd stayed in their homeland is Pipelinecomics.com by Augie De Blieck Jr. Well worth checking out if you haven't before.
Quote from: positronic on 13 April, 2017, 04:26:14 PMThat's been explored. Kraken didn't fill the bill somehow, even though genetically, he's identical. They're individuals though, just like Rogue and Friday, even they shared the exact same DNA.
Well, I think the cloning aspect devalues the character a bit. Can't someone else take over Dredd's role, like judge Giant? He seems to be a very capable fellow, and maybe a little more human than Dredd.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 14 April, 2017, 03:22:48 PM
Quote from: positronic on 13 April, 2017, 04:26:14 PMThat's been explored. Kraken didn't fill the bill somehow, even though genetically, he's identical. They're individuals though, just like Rogue and Friday, even they shared the exact same DNA.
Well, I think the cloning aspect devalues the character a bit. Can't someone else take over Dredd's role, like judge Giant? He seems to be a very capable fellow, and maybe a little more human than Dredd.
Well it's pretty obvious when you think about it, isn't it? I mean, beyond sales dropping like a stone, even apart from those sort of real life considerations.
Quote from: positronic on 14 April, 2017, 03:57:05 PMWell it's pretty obvious when you think about it, isn't it? I mean, beyond sales dropping like a stone, even apart from those sort of real life considerations.
Just some highly speculative musings.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 14 April, 2017, 10:26:54 PM
Quote from: positronic on 14 April, 2017, 03:57:05 PMWell it's pretty obvious when you think about it, isn't it? I mean, beyond sales dropping like a stone, even apart from those sort of real life considerations.
Just some highly speculative musings.
Just trying to point out that there's only ONE Judge Dredd, or ever will be. Judges Fargo, Rico, Kraken... all have identical DNA, but they're all individuals with different life experiences, memories, and beliefs -- and all of them are capable of making different free-will choices. "Judge Dredd" isn't some mask or costume that can be handed down to a successor like a legacy. Judge Giant is Judge GIANT, not Judge Dredd. They already have similar roles in the sense that they have the same job description - they're both Judges. Dredd is Dredd, Giant is Giant, Anderson is Anderson. If Anderson can have her own series, so can another Judge, if deemed popular enough with the readership.
None of those characters will ever BE "Judge Dredd", though.
Besides, if they had to change the title of the Megazine to
Judge Giant Megazine, it might lead all sorts of confusion and misunderstandings.
"I don't get it -- it's just a regular-size edition of the magazine, with no extra pages?!" :D
Cept it wasn't a clicker... Least not on the ipad.
Superhero audiences are so needy... US comics has lots of cops that deserve a place on the list for being, ya know, actual cops rather than superheroes. Diana Cyprus from the fantastic, and just completed, Revival for one. Rick Grimes comes to mind too of we're ignoring cops-doing-cop-stuff.
Quote from: positronic on 15 April, 2017, 05:38:31 AMJust trying to point out that there's only ONE Judge Dredd, or ever will be. Judges Fargo, Rico, Kraken... all have identical DNA, but they're all individuals with different life experiences, memories, and beliefs -- and all of them are capable of making different free-will choices. "Judge Dredd" isn't some mask or costume that can be handed down to a successor like a legacy. Judge Giant is Judge GIANT, not Judge Dredd. They already have similar roles in the sense that they have the same job description - they're both Judges. Dredd is Dredd, Giant is Giant, Anderson is Anderson. If Anderson can have her own series, so can another Judge, if deemed popular enough with the readership. None of those characters will ever BE "Judge Dredd", though.
Besides, if they had to change the title of the Megazine to Judge Giant Megazine, it might lead all sorts of confusion and misunderstandings. "I don't get it -- it's just a regular-size edition of the magazine, with no extra pages?!" :D
I do not deny the obvious facts, I'm just pointing out some negative aspects with the character.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 17 April, 2017, 04:35:09 PM
Quote from: positronic on 15 April, 2017, 05:38:31 AMJust trying to point out that there's only ONE Judge Dredd, or ever will be. Judges Fargo, Rico, Kraken... all have identical DNA, but they're all individuals with different life experiences, memories, and beliefs -- and all of them are capable of making different free-will choices. "Judge Dredd" isn't some mask or costume that can be handed down to a successor like a legacy. Judge Giant is Judge GIANT, not Judge Dredd. They already have similar roles in the sense that they have the same job description - they're both Judges. Dredd is Dredd, Giant is Giant, Anderson is Anderson. If Anderson can have her own series, so can another Judge, if deemed popular enough with the readership. None of those characters will ever BE "Judge Dredd", though.
Besides, if they had to change the title of the Megazine to Judge Giant Megazine, it might lead all sorts of confusion and misunderstandings. "I don't get it -- it's just a regular-size edition of the magazine, with no extra pages?!" :D
I do not deny the obvious facts, I'm just pointing out some negative aspects with the character.
I'm questioning
why you see it as negative. It's neutral unless you choose to view it as negative. The only general thing coming through here is something like (to paraphrase) "Clones are bad." That may or may not be a fair characterization of your attitude, but it's as best I can make it out. If it IS a fair summation, then I fail to understand
why clones are bad. Just because they share the same DNA with someone else? That was why I tried to illustrate with examples that clones are not xerox copies. Families share a lot of the same DNA, and identical twins even more. Why is having the same DNA as someone else a bad thing? It doesn't automatically make them a backup copy in case of emergencies, or dictate what their character is. It seems like you're saying a clone's automatically, almost by definition, some kind of cheap knockoff, like a no-name or generic brand of something more popular. And that seems to be exactly how the word 'clone' is used in popular parlance -- but I don't buy that fiction. Except for the fact that he's the star of the series and readers were introduced to him first, then Judge Dredd would just be a cheap imitation of Judge Fargo. Or is that exactly what he is?
But how much more different than Fargo is Dredd? He looks like him and his doubts seems to stem from the fact that Fargo didn't want the totalitarian rule to last forever. A clone is not necessarily an exact copy, but why should I care about the character when you can just produce a new person from the predecessor's germ plasm and get the same appearance and many of that charcter's traits? The fact that Dredd is aging along with the comic is a bit original, but it becomes more and more silly as the time goes by. He is over 70 years old but can more or less function like an athlete.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 17 April, 2017, 11:26:07 PM
But how much more different than Fargo is Dredd? He looks like him and his doubts seems to stem from the fact that Fargo didn't want the totalitarian rule to last forever.
After sowing his wild oats Dredd doesn't put a bullet in his head or run a protection racket like Rico.
I don't think Dredd has too many doubts about the Justice system at this point but he can't square Fargo's death prattle with how he sees the city now. I think Dredd sees
himself as more a Judge than Fargo ever was.
The fact that Dredd is aging along with the comic is a bit original, but it becomes more and more silly as the time goes by. He is over 70 years old but can more or less function like an athlete.
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff248/burlearth/DYINGWORDS_zps3f2b598d.jpg)
As John Wagner has often said
70 is the new 40 in the 22nd Century and Joe Dredd has had a recent semi-rejuve to keep his pecker up.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 17 April, 2017, 11:26:07 PM
But how much more different than Fargo is Dredd? He looks like him and his doubts seems to stem from the fact that Fargo didn't want the totalitarian rule to last forever.
After sowing his wild oats Dredd doesn't put a bullet in his head or run a protection racket like Rico.
I don't think Dredd has too many doubts about the Justice system at this point but he can't square Fargo's death prattle with how he sees the city now. I think Dredd sees himself as more a Judge than Fargo ever was.
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff248/burlearth/DYINGWORDS_zps3f2b598d.jpg)
Quote from: Sandman1 on 17 April, 2017, 11:26:07 PMThe fact that Dredd is aging along with the comic is a bit original, but it becomes more and more silly as the time goes by. He is over 70 years old but can more or less function like an athlete.
As John Wagner has often said
70 is the new 40 in the 22nd Century and Joe Dredd has had a recent semi-rejuve to keep his pecker up.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 17 April, 2017, 11:26:07 PM
But how much more different than Fargo is Dredd? He looks like him and his doubts seems to stem from the fact that Fargo didn't want the totalitarian rule to last forever. A clone is not necessarily an exact copy, but why should I care about the character when you can just produce a new person from the predecessor's germ plasm and get the same appearance and many of that charcter's traits? The fact that Dredd is aging along with the comic is a bit original, but it becomes more and more silly as the time goes by. He is over 70 years old but can more or less function like an athlete.
It's a science-fictional future. Given the level of biomedical tech established even very early in the series, which is presumably advancing along in real time just as comic book publishing is in our world, what's 70? It's nothing. People in the real world living at age 70 today are healthier, more active, and younger-looking then their parent's generation was at the same age. There's not much of a stretch of imagination to think that 120 years in the future, people might live even longer, and look younger.
Afterwards when I was thinking about what I'd written in that earlier post, it occurred to me that the real source of your anxiety seems to be some hand-wringing over what you imagine as a very real, potentially imminent, 'death of Dredd' story. Why would the folks at Rebellion decide to kill off 2000 AD's most popular character? The only character to appear in 99.9% of all issues published to date (including annuals and specials), and the only 2000 AD character to also star in his own self-titled comic? It's like killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.
Yes, we've seen that sort of temporary sales-goosing technique used by Marvel and DC for their top characters, and sometimes it kicked off an extended arc of related stories stretching on a year or two, before the 'death of' character got resurrected. I guess the existence of clones with Fargo's DNA bugs you since it makes it easy to at least find a convincing fake to pass in the story for Judge Dredd. 2000 AD's readers don't seem like they might go along with some obvious, 'gimmick' attempt at temporarily boosting sales, but as long as you could invoke some interest in a well-written story, I guess they might be patient enough to follow it through its various twists and turns. I don't think any 2000 AD reader's going to be fooled into thinking it's anything like a permanent death.
I'm not sure why they'd want to do that again, since they've already explored it through the Judge Kraken story.
Also let's not forget that Dredd himself is a product of that same future biomedical tech. Longevity may have been designed into him when he was created. Why wouldn't they?
There has been a lot of discussion on this forum about Dredd's age, and it should be noted that he has recently had a re-juve in the Megazine, and the month before that had a medical with the med judge saying he was in great condition and good for many years yet.
Also,I am pretty sure John Wagner said on a recent panel that he has no plans to kill off Dredd, especially after the hoops they had to jump through to bring Alpha back.
Given all that, I have stopped worrying about his age and just get on with reading the strip.
Regarding Dredd's age, wouldn't it be better if they just skipped the ongoing timeline altogether?
Quote from: positronic on 18 April, 2017, 09:23:19 AMAfterwards when I was thinking about what I'd written in that earlier post, it occurred to me that the real source of your anxiety seems to be some hand-wringing over what you imagine as a very real, potentially imminent, 'death of Dredd' story. Why would the folks at Rebellion decide to kill off 2000 AD's most popular character? The only character to appear in 99.9% of all issues published to date (including annuals and specials), and the only 2000 AD character to also star in his own self-titled comic? It's like killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.
I contemplate over two narrative arcs, but none of them involves Dredd's death. I'm rather looking for something that crawls under his skin, like the story A Letter to Judge Dredd. I want to shake his adamant foundation.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 18 April, 2017, 05:17:35 PM
Regarding Dredd's age, wouldn't it be better if they just skipped the ongoing timeline altogether?
Quote from: positronic on 18 April, 2017, 09:23:19 AMAfterwards when I was thinking about what I'd written in that earlier post, it occurred to me that the real source of your anxiety seems to be some hand-wringing over what you imagine as a very real, potentially imminent, 'death of Dredd' story. Why would the folks at Rebellion decide to kill off 2000 AD's most popular character? The only character to appear in 99.9% of all issues published to date (including annuals and specials), and the only 2000 AD character to also star in his own self-titled comic? It's like killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.
I contemplate over two narrative arcs, but none of them involves Dredd's death. I'm rather looking for something that crawls under his skin, like the story A Letter to Judge Dredd. I want to shake his adamant foundation.
Okay, then apparently I misapprehended. You actually don't like Dredd, and would
prefer that they kill him off (as long as he isn't replaced by a clone). I mean, they've done the adamant foundation-shaking thing, had him resign, take the long walk, replaced by Kraken posing as him. Not sure what you want, another re-tread of that? You can't do a story like that too much.
The thing is there's always been those two sides of Dredd. He's the protagonist/hero of the story, but sometimes he's actually a figure of mockery (for the writers), because they are recognizing that the 'hero' in this story is actually a jackbooted fascist oppressor. Oh, he can be written both ways, but at the end of the day very few people are going to defend the judge system as a sane form of government. Yet, that's the whole thrust of this particular strip. Take that away and make Dredd more of a straightforward beloved good-guy, and it's all over. The whole setup of the system is that it has to be overseen by doubt-free unshakable-in-their-beliefs Judges. If they're NOT, the entire system collapses like a deck of cards.
Quote from: positronic on 19 April, 2017, 09:26:00 AM
Quote from: Sandman1 on 18 April, 2017, 05:17:35 PM
Regarding Dredd's age, wouldn't it be better if they just skipped the ongoing timeline altogether?
Quote from: positronic on 18 April, 2017, 09:23:19 AMAfterwards when I was thinking about what I'd written in that earlier post, it occurred to me that the real source of your anxiety seems to be some hand-wringing over what you imagine as a very real, potentially imminent, 'death of Dredd' story. Why would the folks at Rebellion decide to kill off 2000 AD's most popular character? The only character to appear in 99.9% of all issues published to date (including annuals and specials), and the only 2000 AD character to also star in his own self-titled comic? It's like killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.
I contemplate over two narrative arcs, but none of them involves Dredd's death. I'm rather looking for something that crawls under his skin, like the story A Letter to Judge Dredd. I want to shake his adamant foundation.
Okay, then apparently I misapprehended. You actually don't like Dredd, and would prefer that they kill him off (as long as he isn't replaced by a clone). I mean, they've done the adamant foundation-shaking thing, had him resign, take the long walk, replaced by Kraken posing as him. Not sure what you want, another re-tread of that? You can't do a story like that too much.
The thing is there's always been those two sides of Dredd. He's the protagonist/hero of the story, but sometimes he's actually a figure of mockery (for the writers), because they are recognizing that the 'hero' in this story is actually a jackbooted fascist oppressor. Oh, he can be written both ways, but at the end of the day very few people are going to defend the judge system as a sane form of government. Yet, that's the whole thrust of this particular strip. Take that away and make Dredd more of a straightforward beloved good-guy, and it's all over. The whole setup of the system is that it has to be overseen by doubt-free unshakable-in-their-beliefs Judges. If they're NOT, the entire system collapses like a house of cards.
Quote from: positronic on 19 April, 2017, 09:26:00 AMOkay, then apparently I misapprehended. You actually don't like Dredd, and would prefer that they kill him off (as long as he isn't replaced by a clone).
I don't dislike Dredd, I just think that there are some chinks in the armor.
Quote from: positronic on 19 April, 2017, 09:26:00 AMI mean, they've done the adamant foundation-shaking thing, had him resign, take the long walk, replaced by Kraken posing as him. Not sure what you want, another re-tread of that? You can't do a story like that too much.
It's more like a story about revelations and the grayscale between cause and effect. I skilled writer can bring out some new nuances in already explored themes.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 17 April, 2017, 11:49:15 PM
Quote from: Sandman1 on 17 April, 2017, 11:26:07 PM
But how much more different than Fargo is Dredd? He looks like him and his doubts seems to stem from the fact that Fargo didn't want the totalitarian rule to last forever.
After sowing his wild oats Dredd doesn't put a bullet in his head or run a protection racket like Rico.
When did Dredd sow his wild oats? As in coitus?
Quote from: Sandman1 on 19 April, 2017, 05:23:46 PM
Quote from: positronic on 19 April, 2017, 09:26:00 AMOkay, then apparently I misapprehended. You actually don't like Dredd, and would prefer that they kill him off (as long as he isn't replaced by a clone).
I don't dislike Dredd, I just think that there are some chinks in the armor.
Quote from: positronic on 19 April, 2017, 09:26:00 AMI mean, they've done the adamant foundation-shaking thing, had him resign, take the long walk, replaced by Kraken posing as him. Not sure what you want, another re-tread of that? You can't do a story like that too much.
It's more like a story about revelations and the grayscale between cause and effect. I skilled writer can bring out some new nuances in already explored themes.
It's been shown. How often can you dwell on stories about the doubts and chinks? If you do, then you render him unfit to do the job. That's the point I was making. The Judges are meant by design to be inflexible and hidebound by the Law. It's the whole point of everything, without which the entire system ceases to function.
Quote from: positronic on 20 April, 2017, 12:55:30 AM
Quote from: Sandman1 on 19 April, 2017, 05:23:46 PM
Quote from: positronic on 19 April, 2017, 09:26:00 AMOkay, then apparently I misapprehended. You actually don't like Dredd, and would prefer that they kill him off (as long as he isn't replaced by a clone).
I don't dislike Dredd, I just think that there are some chinks in the armor.
Quote from: positronic on 19 April, 2017, 09:26:00 AMI mean, they've done the adamant foundation-shaking thing, had him resign, take the long walk, replaced by Kraken posing as him. Not sure what you want, another re-tread of that? You can't do a story like that too much.
It's more like a story about revelations and the grayscale between cause and effect. I skilled writer can bring out some new nuances in already explored themes.
It's been shown. How often can you dwell on stories about the doubts and chinks? If you do, then you render him unfit to do the job. That's the point I was making. The Judges are meant by design to be inflexible and hidebound by the Law. It's the whole point of everything, without which the entire system ceases to function.
Dredd doesn't always agree with the law, or those in power, I don't see the problem in that continuing to come up. Even if the system did cease to function, you could continue telling that story.
Quote from: positronic on 20 April, 2017, 12:55:30 AMIt's been shown. How often can you dwell on stories about the doubts and chinks? If you do, then you render him unfit to do the job. That's the point I was making. The Judges are meant by design to be inflexible and hidebound by the Law. It's the whole point of everything, without which the entire system ceases to function.
The story is not about the emphasis on his characteristics, but it is about misjudgments and the things I mentioned earlier.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 20 April, 2017, 11:14:52 AM
Quote from: positronic on 20 April, 2017, 12:55:30 AMIt's been shown. How often can you dwell on stories about the doubts and chinks? If you do, then you render him unfit to do the job. That's the point I was making. The Judges are meant by design to be inflexible and hidebound by the Law. It's the whole point of everything, without which the entire system ceases to function.
The story is not about the emphasis on his characteristics, but it is about misjudgments and the things I mentioned earlier.
He's made attempts to change things from within to a certain degree, not always successfully. At other times he plays the role of someone who prevents someone else from changing the system from within. If his doubts come to the forefront to the extent of where he questions whether the judge system is the form of government best for the citizens of Mega City One, then he can't function as a Judge anymore. It occurs to me that John Wagner and Alan Grant had some fundamental disagreement over exactly the topic you're raising regarding Dredd, which led to dissolving their long co-writer partnership.
Quote from: PsychoGoatee on 20 April, 2017, 02:26:55 AM
Dredd doesn't always agree with the law, or those in power, I don't see the problem in that continuing to come up. Even if the system did cease to function, you could continue telling that story.
He can't claim "I am the Law" unless he is acting not like an individual, but as a perfect representative of the system whose only function is in enforcing that system. Acting as a individual who debates the efficacy of the law makes him less effective as a Judge. But if he goes that route and the system ceases to function because it doesn't have perfect enforcers, it fundamentally changes the nature of the strip in a way so that there would probably be no returning to the status quo. It might be more realistic, but it doesn't serve the purposes of ongoing series fiction.
Quote from: positronic on 20 April, 2017, 12:07:20 PM
Quote from: PsychoGoatee on 20 April, 2017, 02:26:55 AM
Dredd doesn't always agree with the law, or those in power, I don't see the problem in that continuing to come up. Even if the system did cease to function, you could continue telling that story.
He can't claim "I am the Law" unless he is acting not like an individual,
The beauty of it is, he can. He says he's the law, but he's not actually a robot who only follows the law. It may be a bit of a contradiction, but that's who he is. He doesn't just follow orders, he was raised in that environment so the Book of Law is almost his bible, but he's shown over the years that he also listens to his gut. We know that he does act as an individual, that's why everybody in the city and all the Judges act like he's somebody different and notable. Often times over the years they don't seem to know what Dredd will do or where he'll fall on an issue, because he isn't just a walking talking law book. Even if he likes to think he is.
And the system the comic is based on has lasted decades with that character growth and depth, hasn't been a problem.
Quote from: positronic on 20 April, 2017, 11:49:53 AMHe's made attempts to change things from within to a certain degree, not always successfully. At other times he plays the role of someone who prevents someone else from changing the system from within. If his doubts come to the forefront to the extent of where he questions whether the judge system is the form of government best for the citizens of Mega City One, then he can't function as a Judge anymore. It occurs to me that John Wagner and Alan Grant had some fundamental disagreement over exactly the topic you're raising regarding Dredd, which led to dissolving their long co-writer partnership.
The story doesn't revolve around anyone's doubts about the system or Dredd's role in it, so calm your horses! If I summarize the whole thing, I would say it's about a master and his truculent pupil.
Quote from: PsychoGoatee on 20 April, 2017, 05:18:33 PM
Quote from: positronic on 20 April, 2017, 12:07:20 PM
Quote from: PsychoGoatee on 20 April, 2017, 02:26:55 AM
Dredd doesn't always agree with the law, or those in power, I don't see the problem in that continuing to come up. Even if the system did cease to function, you could continue telling that story.
He can't claim "I am the Law" unless he is acting not like an individual,
The beauty of it is, he can. He says he's the law, but he's not actually a robot who only follows the law. It may be a bit of a contradiction, but that's who he is. He doesn't just follow orders, he was raised in that environment so the Book of Law is almost his bible, but he's shown over the years that he also listens to his gut. We know that he does act as an individual, that's why everybody in the city and all the Judges act like he's somebody different and notable. Often times over the years they don't seem to know what Dredd will do or where he'll fall on an issue, because he isn't just a walking talking law book. Even if he likes to think he is.
And the system the comic is based on has lasted decades with that character growth and depth, hasn't been a problem.
But you have stories like the one where the Democracy referendum and Judge Dredd's questioning of the system (and himself) after he takes covert action to suppress the Democratic party's ability to participate in a free vote leads to him doubting both the system's and his own efficacy and resigning as a Judge. It's true that it demonstrates that this is a story possibility, but if there's a lot of that going on in a lot of stories, then the basic premise of the Judge Dredd strip changes in ways that make it unfamiliar and unsatisfying to a lot of readers, who
expect Dredd to be somewhat of a bastard when it comes to enforcing the Law, and to support the justness of the letter of the law (the system) as opposed to individual freedom or individual intent or ignorance of it. We
expect him to enforce the Law harshly, as opposed to leniently.
A good example of what I'm talking about (which involves doubts about the system and action taken by a Judge who questions it) is the recently-concluded IDW 12-issue Judge Dredd series that tells the story of "Mega City Zero". In that story, a Judge deemed unfit for street duty (who is nevertheless recognized as a computer expert and statistical analysis prodigy) determined that her analysis of crime statistics reveals a correlation between a lesser or lack of Judge surveillance, patrolling and arrests made in certain sectors, and the overall downward incidence of crime in those sectors. Through a complicated plot twist involving the use of a Justice department-seized cyber-narcotic which induces an altered-reality state (which I don't pretend to have completely grasped), somehow this Judge is able to infect the Justice One computer with a virus which causes Mega City One and the whole Judge system to cease to exist. Judge Dredd personally avoids being altered as an individual through some further complication, but awakes in a reality in which Mega City One and the Judge system no longer exists, and society (what exists of it) is now governed by some form of anarchy and social media. Whether the status quo in the story is undermined by the doubts and questions raised by Dredd or another Judge is a moot point as far as how the basic world of Mega City One is affected and how the rest of the story plays out. This was for me a very unsatisfying Judge Dredd story because it deviates too far from the basic established premise and familiar elements that I expect to see in a Judge Dredd story, although some readers may have liked it. The story also put Dredd in a position of acting and reacting, and making decisions he ordinarily wouldn't be faced with or make, because he's not operating in his usual fashion with a Judge system whose laws his edict is to enforce.
I guess what I'm saying is that I tend not to prefer a Dredd story that portrays in terms of being too heroic, too much of a good guy. I always think we should never lose our awareness of the unforgiving nature of the system he represents, and he should always be too much "The Man", straightlaced and a 'scary cop' type as opposed to the friendly cop on the beat who we look up to for help and to save us. There has to be some of that in the stories, but there should be a balance maintained so that we never get comfortable in thinking that we can always rely on Dredd to "do the right thing".
Quote from: PsychoGoatee on 20 April, 2017, 02:26:55 AM
Dredd doesn't always agree with the law, or those in power, I don't see the problem in that continuing to come up. Even if the system did cease to function, you could continue telling that story.
We know that he does act as an individual, that's why everybody in the city and all the Judges act like he's somebody different and notable.
[/quote]
My view is that he's respected due to his years of experience in his unyielding devotion to upholding the Law, and the fact that he's slightly inhuman (or superhuman, if you prefer) in that particular regard makes him more effective and an example of an ideal for other Judges to look up to. Not because he debates the merits of the Laws he enforces, or moderates the enforcement of them by taking into consideration other factors. Now, to the extent that the Law is just and the crimes egregious, that makes him appear heroic in opposing them with his utmost ability, which is considerable. The older stories in the 1980s frequently had a slyly mocking tone in portraying Dredd as the ultimate avatar of a totalitarian system, and of his ultimate 'righteousness' whether the Law represented true justice or not. But of course on the other hand, that's just the guy you want protecting you if the criminals are sometimes as heinous as the ones in many of the stories.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 20 April, 2017, 10:29:04 PM
Quote from: positronic on 20 April, 2017, 11:49:53 AMHe's made attempts to change things from within to a certain degree, not always successfully. At other times he plays the role of someone who prevents someone else from changing the system from within. If his doubts come to the forefront to the extent of where he questions whether the judge system is the form of government best for the citizens of Mega City One, then he can't function as a Judge anymore. It occurs to me that John Wagner and Alan Grant had some fundamental disagreement over exactly the topic you're raising regarding Dredd, which led to dissolving their long co-writer partnership.
The story doesn't revolve around anyone's doubts about the system or Dredd's role in it, so calm your horses! If I summarize the whole thing, I would say it's about a master and his truculent pupil.
... You lost me there. Are you talking about some fanfic stories you're working on? I thought we were debating what direction the actual published stories might possibly be heading, or what direction (or characterization angle for Dredd) they should be taking.
The Dredd strip has evolved over the years. I like the fact we now have a Dredd who not only has doubts about the system he upholds, but will actively voice his concerns.
A consistent, Bastardly horrible Dredd wouldn't leave much room for character development.
Additionally, Dredd is satirical - it's not a training guide for wanna be fascists.
Cheers
Quote from: NapalmKev on 21 April, 2017, 11:18:37 AM
The Dredd strip has evolved over the years. I like the fact we now have a Dredd who not only has doubts about the system he upholds, but will actively voice his concerns.
A consistent, Bastardly horrible Dredd wouldn't leave much room for character development.
Additionally, Dredd is satirical - it's not a training guide for wanna be fascists.
Well, it
was satirical back in the day. He's not going to be a bastard
all of the time, or not going to come off looking that way in contrast to some situations or when dealing with criminals in stories as they're written -- you
want him to be a bastard in dealing with criminal scum. I sometimes wonder why I don't see the satirical aspect addressed too much in stories of more recent vintage.
Quote from: positronic on 21 April, 2017, 09:08:20 AM
A good example of what I'm talking about (which involves doubts about the system and action taken by a Judge who questions it) is the recently-concluded IDW 12-issue Judge Dredd series that tells the story of "Mega City Zero".
As far as I am concerned nothing that happens in the IDW version of Dredd is canon in 2000AD Dredd. :lol:
Quote from: Magnetica on 21 April, 2017, 12:26:02 PM
Quote from: positronic on 21 April, 2017, 09:08:20 AM
A good example of what I'm talking about (which involves doubts about the system and action taken by a Judge who questions it) is the recently-concluded IDW 12-issue Judge Dredd series that tells the story of "Mega City Zero".
As far as I am concerned nothing that happens in the IDW version of Dredd is canon in 2000AD Dredd. :lol:
Oh, I definitely agree as far as the Mega City Zero story (and "The Blessed Earth" sequel), as well as the first ongoing IDW series written by Duane Swierczynski (which seemed to me like a rehash of various plot threads from many previous-published Dredd stories). There is a Judge Dredd Year One miniseries by Matt Smith and Simon Coleby published by IDW that might have some claim to being canon, though. A Judge Dredd: Mega City Two and Judge Anderson miniseries were published that are set at specific 'blank' spots early in each character's career that don't seem like they conflict with any established canon stories, either. While at first I had a tendency to think anything first published outside of 2000 AD itself and the Megazine wouldn't be canon, there are those crossover stories with Batman, Aliens, Predator, etc. which are accepted and have also been printed within the pages of 2000 AD as well (not sure about where the Mars Attacks Judge Dredd series falls in that consideration, but the creators seem like they might be more 'authoritative' than people involved in the IDW ongoing comics).
Whether the story is canon or not isn't the point, though. It's merely an example of a
type of story, which deviates from the usual status quo because of a Judge (normally it would be Dredd) having philosophical doubts or questioning why things should be the way they are. I only brought it up because the details are recently fresh in my memory, and it represents a rather
extreme example. Yet there's nothing stopping any other Dredd story which seeks to examine the philosophical underpinnings or ethical values of the Judge system, or even of particular laws under that system, from leading to upsetting the status quo, either.
Quote from: positronic on 21 April, 2017, 10:56:16 AM... You lost me there. Are you talking about some fanfic stories you're working on?
Yes, and I thought it was pretty clear.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 21 April, 2017, 04:03:51 PM
Quote from: positronic on 21 April, 2017, 10:56:16 AM... You lost me there. Are you talking about some fanfic stories you're working on?
Yes, and I thought it was pretty clear.
I guess I missed it because I was focused on whatever you were viewing as the negative aspects of having cloning technology available in the universe of Judge Dredd, relative to the prospects of his potential death and replacement.
I guess you could just go ahead and have the Judges declare cloning illegal in your story, and -- problem solved.