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Spoilers => Prog => Topic started by: Magnetica on 17 November, 2018, 01:42:40 PM

Title: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Magnetica on 17 November, 2018, 01:42:40 PM
The Small House moves towards the end game. As has been the norm with this particular story, there is another shock towards the end of this episode and [spoiler]fans of Dirty Frank might want to look away.[/spoiler]

Skip Tracer wraps up and will return. For me it's an ok thrill, but is over shadowed by what else is in the Prog.

Brink has an even more talky episode than usual, if that is possible. And as with Dredd ,things come to ahead at the end of the episode. As others had speculated [spoiler]Curtis had been trailed and now that is going to come home to roost. [/spoiler]

Infestinauts is not my sort of thing. Its ok, but not sure I bother with a re-read.

Never thought I would say it, but I found Kingdom a little disappointing. The nuke from the end of last week's episode seems somehow incidental; surely it should have more of an impact?
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Richard on 17 November, 2018, 02:41:01 PM
Well we've still to see the impact on Lizzee Sower and Pause. In the meantime we still get to enjoy the spectacle of Gene cutting someone in half at the waist with a huge axe. That worked for me.

Can't see how The Small House can really wrap everything up in one more episode, so this must be going to be followed up with another story soon.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Colin YNWA on 17 November, 2018, 05:50:28 PM
Well the Prog continues to delight.

Dredd - I think we'll have some twists and turns in the final part next week (I've avoid the post on Facebook (I think it was?) by Rob Williams) and his episode just seems to crack the tension and intrigue to 11. Thrilling stuff and I doubt we're seen the last of [spoiler]Frank[/spoiler] I call it side shot, Dredd's new equivalent to the shoulder shot in Sinister Dexter!

Skip Tracer - I think this ended fantastically and this story has completely flipped my thoughts on this series. I was completely unfussed about its return after last time. This time very happy to have it back. Very interesting the way Tharg seems to be trying something new with the scheduling with this in once again returning very quickly. That will mean three stories in under a year and I think that's a very healthy way to do things. Well especially now I'm engaged with the series at least!

Brink - Brilliant as ever as the net seems to trap Bridget. This series is a superb lesson in the importance of colour in terming tone and atmosphere. The red in the first half of this episode really emphasising that as brought home how close and dangerous the investigation is.

3riller - Infestinauts was a fun interlude and I'd be happy to see it back... even if that means more hairy butts and ballsacks!

Kingdom - have to disagree with Magnetica I thought the scale and impact of last weeks explosive conclusion was really well handled. Not sure what else could be done without blowing up Gene and that was never going to happen (hence no spoiler tag!). Elson's art really made the world spin and again the tension is really ranking up as this one heads to a thrilling end.

Still top stuff - well done all concerned.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Jacqusie on 17 November, 2018, 09:30:10 PM
I hope the thing that appeared to happen at the end of Dredd, wasn't really that thing and didn't actually happen... and they all live happily ever after.

Sterling work form Rob Williams and Henry Flint, this has been a real slow burner, and having just finished reading Trifecta again, some of it actually now starts to make sense... which is nice  :)
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: broodblik on 18 November, 2018, 05:03:52 AM
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8hxVWVSZuxc/W_BaMO9dfeI/AAAAAAAAjQA/N-hJGNEgS9YHuZ-Apnnz_GhkeBnM0AsggCLcBGAs/s1600/2000%2BAD%2BProg%2B2108-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: The Enigmatic Dr X on 18 November, 2018, 08:54:39 PM
Grumpy out of proportion that I've not had my subscription prog on a Saturday for months.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 November, 2018, 09:09:30 PM
Oh and I should say I love the cover too. So fun and full of energy. Not sure it will ping off the news stands alas, but when in hand its just great.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: broodblik on 19 November, 2018, 04:32:06 PM
As you say Colin the cover has a nice and fun feel to it
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 19 November, 2018, 11:00:16 PM
Prog arrived today. Fantastic stuff. I don't know what else to say, other than to note that we've had a fantastic run of stories featuring nothing from the first-generation (or, arguably, the second generation depending on where we draw the line) writers and that has to speak well for the future of the title.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Proudhuff on 20 November, 2018, 06:36:35 PM
Yes but what about that I on the cover Jim?
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Proudhuff on 20 November, 2018, 06:43:37 PM
I'm loving the whole Dredd thing just now, and I read it as Smiley intercepted the defectors and got the info before anyone else could, and used it to his own advantage, so his betrayal of the city goes way back...

Also his contempt for the Clone Dredd is refreshing, (if obviously flawed) Roll on next week!!  :D

Everything else top notch.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: broodblik on 21 November, 2018, 03:00:35 AM
Another great prog with Dredd again the highlight. 

Brink and Kingdom are still as great as ever.

Infestinauts, it was better than I thought it would be

Skip Tracer was one of the new stories I liked from the beginning and this story-line had a satisfactory ending
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: broodblik on 21 November, 2018, 05:18:28 AM
It is difficult to see how Dredd will be able to wrap up in one episode
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Tiplodocus on 21 November, 2018, 07:59:52 AM
I right enjoyed that. Great art, letters, colours and writing throughout. Not a duff thrill in sight.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: wedgeski on 21 November, 2018, 09:11:28 AM
Quote from: broodblik on 21 November, 2018, 05:18:28 AM
It is difficult to see how Dredd will be able to wrap up in one episode
We already know there will be an epilogue, so...
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Timothy on 21 November, 2018, 09:19:30 AM
The horse will sort everything out next week.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Steve Green on 21 November, 2018, 10:31:36 AM
I'm finding it a bit hard to swallow that [spoiler]there was a whole epic about booby trapped lawgivers, and Dredd knows how deep Smiley goes, that he would not consider that outcome.

I can take characters being a little dim up to a point, but this was a step too far for me, just so Frank could turn[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Frank on 21 November, 2018, 11:01:06 AM
Quote from: Steve Green on 21 November, 2018, 10:31:36 AM
I'm finding it a bit hard to swallow that [spoiler]there was a whole epic about booby trapped lawgivers, and Dredd knows how deep Smiley goes, that he would not consider that outcome.

I can take characters being a little dim up to a point, but this was a step too far for me, just so Frank could turn[/spoiler]

I suppose it's more credible than [spoiler]Zombie Frank[/spoiler] getting the drop on The Best Judge Ever.

I'd just have had [spoiler]Frank[/spoiler] bushwhack Dredd, but nobody's ever asked me to write Suicide Squad. I suppose using a protocol that's (presumably) almost a century old* is consistent with a character who's been around forever and knows all the secrets.


* Predating Dredd himself, which makes it more credible that this specific backstop is something Dredd wouldn't be aware of, even if he and everyone else thought they'd addressed the [spoiler]manual override problem following Doomsday[/spoiler]. A bit of old code nobody ever got rid of.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: TordelBack on 21 November, 2018, 05:35:08 PM
Love, love, love that cover - it made me smile when I saw it blazing out of the newsagents shelf.

And Infestinauts itself has been a treat. I confess that I barely remember the original tale, but this three-parter has been perfect, packet to bowl. The addition of scatology, fake adverts and space truckers to the Banzai Battalion formula makes this more than the sum of its parts, and the already-impressive PYE-01 rises to new heights depicting it.  More please, Tharg!

Dredd, I dunno, it seems to be dragging on a bit: the art is a pure pleasure that makes this a great read, but I'm not really feeling the plot now. Apparently Dredd had a magic bandana after all, and Smiley's top-secret layer is just behind some plasterboard and a suspiciously judge-sized corridor.  I was hoping for something more pocket universe/interdimensional to explain the general improbability of his long-term survival.

The Lawgiver override is almost irrelevant (and not a bad idea really - maybe it's a solution that was introduced to override the kind of override Narcos used; the Solomon codename doesn't mean he came up with it...), since this is a Rob Williams story and in those even mind-controlled one-eyed nutters smelling of wee can beat Dredd easily, and the endgame is always Joe beaten/burned/bleeding-out on a floor/horse somewhere.  I think I want a bit more from a story that positions itself as momentous than it is actually delivering. 

See there I am complaining about things dragging on, while the slow-paced torture of Brink sets my nerves a-jangling. This is just a great story, brilliantly serialised, with just enough info being dripfed and just enough happening to make every Next Prog a cliffhanger.

For the first time in Kingdom's history, I'm finding it a bit difficult to distinguish between the characters - big bulky Aux from three 'factions' may be too many for my ageing eyes.  I'm also not sure the nuke was as impressive a visual as it could have been.  That said, I love this strip, and I wonder how this is going to play out - I wodmer  how less war-beasty Leezee and Pause fared in a nuclear explosion.

Skip Tracer ends its second run with far more credit than its first, but I'm still not sure how much of this is down to the MacNeil factor. But does that really matter? Stylish and striking is as stylish and striking does. I don't think Nolan or his world have established a particularly distinctive identity yet, but I'm pleased Tharg is giving it a fair shake.  We'll see.

Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: norton canes on 22 November, 2018, 10:17:50 AM
That cover's a proper zinger! Love the way the middle monocycle is flying through the air, it gives the scene a fantastic sense of action and pace. In fact Infestinauts has been thoroughly brilliant, script and art. The 'evacuation' panel is absolutely one of 2000 AD's all-time comic high points. Hope the strip gets at least a couple more runs (definitely NO pun intended), as Arthur Wyatt clearly has ideas for it.

The Small House continues to pose more questions than it answers; I can see why Rob Williams is leading on the proposed JD:MCO series, this is precisely the sort of thing that would play out grippingly over multiple episodes. That shot Dredd takes, though - it has to have blown away at least a couple of vital organs, no? Maybe the 'clone' comments have more significance than we think...

Skip Tracer unfortunately trails out a little disappointingly. Nolan Blake's trip into the surreal world of his brother's mind gave the arc a much-needed kick but it's been a bit by-the-numbers since then. Oh well, at least we won't have to wait long 'till we find out where it goes next.

And in Brink and Kingdom Dan Abnett just keeps on doing the Dan Abnett thing, thank goodness.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Dandontdare on 22 November, 2018, 01:35:53 PM
Quote from: norton canes on 22 November, 2018, 10:17:50 AM
That shot Dredd takes, though - it has to have blown away at least a couple of vital organs, no?

Ah, but the Law of Comic & Movie Gunshot Wounds states that any shot that isn't to the head or heart is just a flesh wound that will only disable the hero for as long as the plot demands and can then be completely ignored (although we've seen Dredd shot right through the head before, and that barely slowed him down!)

Small House is gripping, it's been a while since I've spent the week anxiously waiting to find out what happens next.

Brink and Kingdom continue to be amazing, I don't need to repeat what's already been said.

Not read infestinauts yet because I misplaced my copy of prog 2106 so I'm going to read 'em all in one.

Skip Tracer skips out of the prog and out of my memory without leaving a trace. It had lots of (over)familiar elements but I just never managed to get to know or care about the characters or the world.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: broodblik on 22 November, 2018, 03:05:22 PM
This for me is the best Dredd story the last few years (and this it has been regularly my favorite in the prog). Dredd has been solid as always but not really standing out.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: CalHab on 22 November, 2018, 03:15:12 PM
I think the success of the story, apart from the outstanding art, is in the fact that it actually seems like there are real stakes at play. That's something that has often been lacking in Dredd, as the "Musings on The Small House" thread discusses.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: TordelBack on 22 November, 2018, 03:59:45 PM
I keep hearing about these high stakes in The Small House, but I'm not sure I know what they are.

Dredd will get the stomm kicked out of him, but survive. Frank will survive, but may disappear for a while. Giant will survive, and never refer to any of this again. Gerhart will survive, because he's part of the Pin storyline. The characters' relationships may change, there may be a new Chief Judge soon, we may learn the Apocalypse War could have been averted (transferring some of Dredd's guilt?) but Justice Dept will amble on, still riddled with conspiracies and powerplays and basically unchanged.

Titan/Enceladus was operatic in its extremes, Dredd physically and mentally broken, spitting teeth and kill-orders in a single mouthful, the City virtually overrun by an alien invasion (for the first time, unless you count the Kleggs or the Gribligs!) - but what actually changed?  What were the stakes, apart from losing a great character in Nixon and passing Sinfield to the Sovs. Bent Judges still go to Titan, the ice thawed, Dredd got better (except when Rob is writing him, when he appears to be suffering PTSD) and hopefully Beauty got some oats and a nice rub-down.

Now that Kazan Jr and Sam are dead (how Sam was alive at all is another matter), Smiley, Maitland, and various ninja factions are the only potential casualties.  Despite the inclusion of Wagner (Giant), Ewing (Maitland) and Rennie (Kazan Jr) supporting characters, I still don't get any great sense that anything of wide-reaching significance is going to happen, other than the likely dethroning of Smiley, and we only ever see him in this handful of Trifecta-adjacent stories so that's not really a very big deal. 

It's skilfully done: Williams is a strong and distinctive writer with a good ear for inner monologue and a solid line in tension, Flint is simply a living god, the characters are (mostly) memorable and intriguing.  It's a good story, I enjoy reading it (especially the Dirty Frank bits), and I find it interesting to speculate about. 

But it's not gripping me in the way it seems to be engaging so many others, and I don't understand the 'high stakes' thing at all.

Hoping, as ever, to be proved wrong!
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: BPP on 22 November, 2018, 04:15:14 PM
Oh well. You'll always have Mike Carroll.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Frank on 22 November, 2018, 05:19:27 PM

Originally published July 3, 1998, in Comics Buyer's Guide #1285

"The illusion of change."

That's what Stan Lee always said was the secret to Marvel storytelling. Make it seem as if things were changing in the life of a character... but, in point of fact, have them remain exactly the same. It's a terrific theory, and creators and publishers still abide by it.

However, at this point it's hard to convince readers that anything matters anymore.

There is, of course, something to be said for maintaining the illusion. Why commit oneself to genuine change when by simply pretending to change things, one doesn't have to risk finding oneself stuck with a character who has lost those elements that made him appealing in the first place.

Look, for example, at Peter Parker.

Originally, he started out as a student with girl problems, a sickly aunt, and money difficulties. Over the years, Stan and Steve (and later John) put him through changes. But when you get down to it, they satisfied the concept of illusionary change.

That was why there was so much internal resistance to the concept of Peter Parker getting married. "It can never be undone," said one spider-writer. "He can never be single again. If we kill off Mary Jane, he's a widower. If they get divorced, he's a divorced man. Spider-Man will be irretrievably older in the eyes of the fans."

The illusion had been shattered.

So The Powers-That-Be did the comic book equivalent of cracking open an odometer and rolling back the mileage: They came up with the clone. Free of any of the baggage the character had accrued since the death of Gwen, he was supposed to reconnect the audience to Spider-Man.

The problem is, all writing is a magic trick. You try to pull fast ones on the audience so that they don't look too closely. Because fans don't like to be treated as if they're stupid. That's the problem with illusion of change.

The illusion of change might be ideal when dealing with characters that are the properties of large companies and have to be kept nice for whoever might come next. What becomes problematic is mustering any continued fan interest in the fates of these characters, because it's becoming perceived that there is no fate that is irrevocable, no development that cannot be undone inside of twenty-two pages.

Look at Alan Moore's take on Swamp Thing, for example. As the character was conceived, he was a muck-encrusted Alec Holland. Moore changed that irrevocably. Alec Holland, said Moore, was dead. Gone. Had been for a real long time.

A writer at the time commented that he didn't see the point of it; that it seemed a simple sleight of hand that had no real meaning. He mistook genuine change for the illusion of change, and consequently didn't see why everyone was making a big deal about it since it just seemed business as usual.

Except it wasn't. Moore was so thorough in his presentation of the material that there was simply no going back. Fans didn't read those stories wondering how the status quo was going to be restored; they read them knowing that they were seeing the inevitable and permanent evolution of the character, and wondered about all the possibilities that Moore was presenting.

Contrast that with virtually any other of the major superheroes, and you see the difference. Batman's back breaks, but we know he'll be back. Superman dies, or becomes an energy being, but we know that–sooner or later–he'll be back the way he's always been. Fans perceive the changes simply as an array of gimmicks concocted to maintain interest in characters who have as much growth potential as Garfield.

The illusion of change has raised the threshold of what will grab and hold an audience. Genuine change becomes extremely problematic because in order to make it really stick, you have to do something drastic just to get the reader's attention.

The illusion only works for so long. The problem is that on the one hand fans want real change, want a sense that something has long-term meaning; on the other hand, creators are boxed in.

Things intended as changes in the status quo are seen only as the latest in an endless succession of unconvincing and temporary morphs, unless they're dramatic enough that they can't possibly be undone... at which point the fans go nuts and demand not only the reinstitution of the status quo, but the heads of everyone who had anything to do with the change.

What's the answer to it all?

Well... the only thing that comes to mind is that all the current incarnations of the characters are yanked out of existence and the characters are completely rebooted into all-new, anything-goes versions of ... Or we could clone all the ...

Ah, forget it.  That trick never works.

(Peter David, writer of stuff, can be written to at Second Age, Inc., PO Box 239, Bayport, NY 11705.)

https://www.peterdavid.net/2012/12/24/the-illusion-of-change/



Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: TordelBack on 22 November, 2018, 05:36:08 PM
Yeah, that's a good piece, and I take the point - but there have been plenty of strips in the comic's history that toyed effectively with my readiness for self-deception, even while I knew that everything would have to more-or-less reset afterwards.  This just isn't one. For me.

That isn't to say it isn't a good story, well-told. It just isn't delivering the desperate-rush-to-the-shops thing that others report.

As every Irish schoolchild's favourite poet Patrick Kavanagh would have it:

"We have tested and tasted too much, lover
Through a chink too wide there comes in no wonder."

And this was before Roger linked to the Goatse!
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Frank on 22 November, 2018, 06:09:00 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 22 November, 2018, 05:36:08 PM
Yeah, that's a good piece, and I take the point - but there have been plenty of strips in the comic's history that toyed effectively with my readiness for self-deception, even while I knew that everything would have to more-or-less reset afterwards.  This just isn't one. For me.

That isn't to say it isn't a good story, well-told. It just isn't delivering the desperate-rush-to-the-shops thing that others report.

Sorry, that was my inept way saying I feel exactly the same. Can't fault the craft of anyone involved*

You can stop reading me poetry, though.  I'm not putting out.


* They're the best creators in the comic and everyone's on absolute top form
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: BPP on 22 November, 2018, 06:26:13 PM
Williams does have a commendable history or tearing down his worlds - he killed of the whole lowlife ensemble including Aimee Nixon, he ended shakara which had massive scope and he's already downed some Dredd sizeable figures in this story. He's clearly a man about the destination rather than sustaining beloved characters.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: broodblik on 22 November, 2018, 06:33:26 PM
It essence it does matter because Dredd will always be there, the supporting cast well that is a complete different story. We will read Dredd next week and year after that and so forth. Normally with these "epics" it is the supporting cast that bites the dust. A new chief Judge might be on the horizon. Hersey might go to Titan because she new everything or not. Frank might be done for. As I said this Dredd was one of the best in recent history. Let us see what happens next week and in the epilogue.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Leigh S on 22 November, 2018, 06:44:33 PM
Have we had an answer as to why, [spoiler]if Frank was compromised, Smiley allowed him to take down a ninja judge in the first place? [/spoiler]

Presumably [spoiler] Sensitive Klegg is still available to provide a second Horse Ex Machina moment, as he bizarrely did in order to get Frank back?[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: TordelBack on 22 November, 2018, 06:51:44 PM
If we are going to see Hershey out (again), it might be nice if she was actually in the story for more than a few panels. Contrast with almost every other Dredd this year, where she consults with Joe on each and every case.

Other than that, we've lost Kazan Jr (two prior appearances, and a 2nd generation clone-villain at that), and Sam, a character who only exists in this storyline. It's not exactly world-altering. Still doubt Frank is going anywhere (thankfully),  but as BPP points out Williams razed an entire cast of great characters in Low Life, so I could well be wrong.

Anyway,  apologies, I don't mean to suggest anyone else is wrong to be getting a buzz out of Small House. It's definitely one of the best Dredds of recent years.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: broodblik on 22 November, 2018, 07:02:09 PM
Dredd believes in the system; and if the system is rotten to its core that is something that will alter Dredd's world and his percipient.  He at this point trust no one. He has lost his faith in his believe system. Well my interpretation of the events of Small House. I might be complete of track
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Frank on 22 November, 2018, 07:03:51 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 22 November, 2018, 06:44:33 PM
Have we had an answer as to why, [spoiler]if Frank was compromised, Smiley allowed him to take down a ninja judge in the first place? [/spoiler]

I don't get the impression Smiley's formed a sentimental attachment to Bachmann's leftovers*


* Or that they're thin on the ground. I wonder whether the ninjas were always Smiley's boys; was Bachmann only ever a front for Smiley? If not, I wonder how and why they were persuaded to transfer their allegiances to someone who doesn't seem fussed about bringing about the God City eschaton they believed in and desired so fervently? Also, who pumps the airs in the batmobile tyres?
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Magnetica on 22 November, 2018, 07:04:47 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 21 November, 2018, 05:35:08 PM
Skip Tracer ends its second run with far more credit than its first, but I'm still not sure how much of this is down to the MacNeil factor. But does that really matter? Stylish and striking is as stylish and striking does. I don't think Nolan or his world have established a particularly distinctive identity yet, but I'm pleased Tharg is giving it a fair shake.  We'll see.

I'm not sure it is down to MacNeil (legend that he is); his art herr looks very similar to Paul Marshall's on the first series to me - indeed I am assuming that is on purpose.


Quote from: Frank on 22 November, 2018, 05:19:27 PM

"The illusion of change."

That's what Stan Lee always said was the secret to Marvel storytelling. Make it seem as if things were changing in the life of a character... but, in point of fact, have them remain exactly the same. It's a terrific theory, and creators and publishers still abide by it.

I only just got round to watching Infinity War this week. And what I assume what was meant to be a highly impactful ending lost all credibility for me when they started killing off so many leading characters, especially Spider-man - as if Marvel were going to let one of their premier properties die. And you know what, isn't there a new Spider-man film coming out?

So major changes need to be credible.

Back on the topic of the Small House, I am almost certain Hershey won't be Chief Judge for much longer. Not sure Frank is coming back....though you never know.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: TordelBack on 22 November, 2018, 07:58:54 PM
Quote from: Magnetica on 22 November, 2018, 07:04:47 PM
I'm not sure it is down to MacNeil (legend that he is); his art herr looks very similar to Paul Marshall's on the first series to me - indeed I am assuming that is on purpose.

Yes, the look is very consistent, but I think MacNeil's massive blocks of shadow, use of silhouettes and numerous short wide panels gave it a real sense of threat and pace that Marshall's more detailed, more conventionally SF, art may not have so readily brought to the first run.

Which isn't to say Marshall's work wasn't as great as always, just that with a fairly generic setting and character, a heavy dollop of style might be injecting atmosphere and substance that might not be there in the script. But that's the nature of comics: if Peaty is giving MacNeil opportunities to work his magic, that's most of the job done.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: TordelBack on 22 November, 2018, 08:08:36 PM
Quote from: Magnetica on 22 November, 2018, 07:04:47 PMAnd what I assume what was meant to be a highly impactful ending lost all credibility for me when they started killing off so many leading characters, especially Spider-man - as if Marvel were going to let one of their premier properties die.

I don't think you were supposed to believe they were all perma-deaths, it's more by way of a classic cliffhanger: not will they, but how are they going to get out of this one? The shock and pathos was the impact, rather than the long-term credibility.

I've said before,  but I think they made a mistake not sticking with a Part 1 and 2 titling rather than  Avengers 3 and 4 - then it feels less like they were attempting to pull the wool over our eyes,  which they weren't really.

Then there's the interest of working out which characters might actually be gone: Vision,  Gamorra,  Loki...
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Frank on 22 November, 2018, 08:42:28 PM

While Hershey dying/leaving/turning on Dredd would be a big deal, I'm not sure it's the order of change Peter David cited Swamp Thing as an example of. 

Other writers have taken long-serving Wagner characters off the board* and Dredd's now functionally immortal. We all know what would constitute real change in Dredd world; we've known for more than a decade (http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/wp-content/Fargo-Old.jpg), now.


* Ennis with Dekker and Rennie with Guthrie
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: TordelBack on 22 November, 2018, 09:41:08 PM
Dekker had barely appeared since her graduation, that's what was so annoyingly wasteful about it.  And Rennie just tinkered with Guthrie, he could still come back. I don't think either count as big interventions.

I'm not against the idea of Williams deposing/disposing of Hershey, but I'd like her to be the focus of that particular story,  rather than a casualty of it (which is itself a Dredd trope, of course). After almost 40 years and two long spells in the big chair, she deserves a meaningful exit.

If it was just throwing down some sort of "look, the newer writers can change big stuff!" marker, I'm not sure I'd be overly impressed. It's essential for the future of the strip that they do, of course.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Leigh S on 22 November, 2018, 09:52:28 PM
We've had Carroll's Texas City takeover (wherefore art thou, Smiley?)
We've had Eglintons(?) Sons of Booth
We've had Williams Enchilidas...

Nothing wrong with any of those, but as Frank says, there is a Fargo shaped elephant in the corner playing cards with no one because they all died during the Chaos Bug.  It's fair enough that perhaps theres been an expectation that Wagner would pick up at least the Fargo thread, but think about what Wagner would have done to weave those "big" ideas together and around each other, rather than it feeling like there are three alternate Dreddverses studiously avoiding each other
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Frank on 22 November, 2018, 10:03:05 PM

I suppose the larger point is that even the exit of a Chief Judge, even the exit of a Chief Judge who's a long-running character, is business as usual. Happened before, it'll happen again.

I assume that's one reason Wagner left Hershey in there for so long. The regular replacement of Chief Judges that was part of the fun of the early strip had lost its novelty.

All you're doing is changing faces, rather than anything important about the strip. Can anyone honestly say the Volt era felt different to the Silver or first McGruder administrations? *

The illusion of change.


* Or Hershey, for that matter. That's why everyone flipped for the scene where she put the smackdown on Dredd in Bullet To King Four. As observed at the time, that was more characterisation than Hershey's had in the last 35 years! A few weeks ago (https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=45532.msg995391#msg995391), we discussed the brilliant scene in Tour Of Duty where Hershey realises Dredd made her put her job on the line over mutant rights but has no intention of doing the same (and never had). That's an astonishing piece of comic storytelling, but 'disappointed' isn't a personality trait.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Trout on 23 November, 2018, 10:47:30 PM
Why aren't you all arguing about the ballsack?

Great comic book, though. Every story was enjoyable - even the one that showed a scrotum.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: TordelBack on 23 November, 2018, 10:57:17 PM
Quote from: Trout on 23 November, 2018, 10:47:30 PM
Why aren't you all arguing about the ballsack?

Political Thread's thattaway >>>
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Jacqusie on 23 November, 2018, 11:18:44 PM
Quote from: BPP on 22 November, 2018, 04:15:14 PM
Oh well. You'll always have Mike Carroll.

Which you just know won't be far away with the usual brand of plonking Dredd somewhere radically removed from MC1 and bodging an convoluted story round it along with the de facto bizzare characterisation.

The current story is the essence of Dredd for me and Williams is the writer completely on the top of his game. I don't think this excellent long running arc is over just yet...
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: dweezil2 on 23 November, 2018, 11:22:31 PM
For my money, The Small House reads and looks so good I won't be losing much sleep over the continuity.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: TordelBack on 23 November, 2018, 11:48:17 PM
Quote from: Jacqusie on 23 November, 2018, 11:18:44 PM
The current story is the essence of Dredd for me and Williams is the writer completely on the top of his game.

Williams on top of his game I agree, but not that this is the essence of Dredd?  Sneaking around the service ducts of the Grand Hall* wearing 3D specs hunting a small tea-drinking spymaster? I would have thought that the story's biggest selling point - and indeed that of Titan - is that this was a rather different Dredd than we're used to.



*Although I suppose he did something very similar in Day the Law Died, Apocalypse War, Necropolis, Inferno and Every Empire Falls, so maybe it is...
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: maryanddavid on 24 November, 2018, 01:07:50 AM
Brink is just fantastic, best thing in the prog in years.
Humour is always welcome and Parrs is a revelation. Kingdom ticks along nicely and even Tracer was decent, but happy enough not to see it again.
Dredd, not getting they hype, probably a bit my problem rather than the creators as I can't see past the man in the room for decades. Still, an enjoyable tale, and Flint, 'Nuff said!
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: moly on 24 November, 2018, 07:15:26 AM
Maybe it's time for dredd to become chief judge
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: BPP on 24 November, 2018, 08:45:24 AM
He could lead the northern zones on a campaign to return to frago's Vision. Free from Grand Hall of Justice tyranny.

Dreddxit if you will.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Tiplodocus on 24 November, 2018, 09:13:41 AM
Pye Parr's art on INFESTINAUTS was fantastic but I think my favourite bit of Arthur's tale was the World building and plot points that made it logical to end the tale on a giant picture of an arse.

I really like the DREDD tale too but my first reservation crept in this issue when I realised that an iconic Flint image (DREDD lawgiver pointing out of frame at me) was let down by the 3D ninja vision glasses on the helmet. Which I think is a nice metaphor for why some people don't like this tale as much as others.

Really loving this run of stories at the moment. Thanks Tharg.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: TordelBack on 24 November, 2018, 09:30:42 AM
Quote from: BPP on 24 November, 2018, 08:45:24 AM
He could lead the northern zones on a campaign to return to frago's Vision. Free from Grand Hall of Justice tyranny.

Dreddxit if you will.

Genius. Who won the Bongo War anyway?
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Frank on 24 November, 2018, 09:41:36 AM
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 24 November, 2018, 09:13:41 AM
I really like the DREDD tale too but my first reservation crept in this issue when I realised that an iconic Flint image (DREDD lawgiver pointing out of frame at me) was let down by the 3D ninja vision glasses on the helmet. Which I think is a nice metaphor for why some people don't like this tale as much as others.

That's very perceptive.  Everyone agrees The Small House is fantastically well-written and drawn, but Smiley and the Trifecta ninjas are such silly ideas they undermine everything else. It's like hiring David Fincher to direct your Power Rangers movie.

I'm going to be dull and agree with everyone else; Infestinauts, particularly Pye Parr's art, has been the best thing in the comic for the last three weeks. Great fun, packed with ideas, and the vivid colour made some repulsive things a gorgeous treat for the eyes.

Welcome back anytime.


Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: JamesC on 24 November, 2018, 09:48:26 AM
I hope Hershey doesn't leave soon. There's too much potential in her character - someone just needs to use it.
I'd really like Hershey to save the day. To rescue Dredd, put an end to Smiley and ideally to be exonerated from any wrong-doing or negligence (maybe she had some quiet long-game investigation into Smiley already underway or something).
Dredd's been on too long a leash and it would be great to see Hershey saving him and then disciplining him. I'd love to see a really frank conversation between them that cuts out all the Dredd as living legend status politics and makes clear that Hershey is chief, she's capable and Dredd should do as he's fucking told.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Frank on 24 November, 2018, 10:19:09 AM
Quote from: JamesC on 24 November, 2018, 09:48:26 AM
I hope Hershey doesn't leave soon. There's too much potential in her character - someone just needs to use it.
I'd really like Hershey to save the day. To rescue Dredd, put an end to Smiley and ideally to be exonerated from any wrong-doing or negligence (maybe she had some quiet long-game investigation into Smiley already underway or something).
Dredd's been on too long a leash and it would be great to see Hershey saving him and then disciplining him. I'd love to see a really frank conversation between them that cuts out all the Dredd as living legend status politics and makes clear that Hershey is chief, she's capable and Dredd should do as he's fucking told.

While Dredd was parked in plot-convenience limbo, Hershey let Texas City depose her and take over MC1, murdering and persecuting innocent citizens as they did so*.

And then there's Titan/Enceladus, Cascade/Sector Zero/Section 7** - all of which saw Hershey make either the wrong call or stand by impassively as shit happened.

Without anyone really trying, without there being some sort of plan, the various writers contributing to Dredd have (cumulatively) made Hershey an inept, Theresa May-like figure, stumbling from one mishandled catastrophe to the next.

Which is at odds with the Trifecta characterisation of Hershey, righteously putting Dredd in his place.


* Whereas McGruder resigned because she considered herself to have mishandled negotiations with god-like supernatural entities.  All CJs face tragedies, all CJs need Dredd to bail them out. The difference is that Hershey's the author of her own misfortunes.

** Wagner figured Hershey's handling of Erika Easterhouse, Max Blixen and Sector 7 as 'a rare mistake', but they're really not so rare
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: JamesC on 24 November, 2018, 10:34:59 AM
Somehow I still see Hershey as a pretty capable Judge but that may just be a consequence of the strip having very little continuity or consistency between different writer's stories. They ignore each other's work so I've ignored the bits that don't ring true to me.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Frank on 24 November, 2018, 10:44:15 AM
Quote from: JamesC on 24 November, 2018, 10:34:59 AM
Somehow I still see Hershey as a pretty capable Judge but that may just be a consequence of the strip having very little continuity or consistency between different writer's stories. They ignore each other's work so I've ignored the bits that don't ring true to me.

Wagner regularly had Dredd say she's the best Chief the city's ever had. And his Hershey respects Dredd, even when she's going against his stated wishes regarding the new Mechanismo programme (https://i.imgur.com/M66tCPm.jpg).


Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: TordelBack on 24 November, 2018, 10:59:33 AM
Wow, just look at how exciting McCrea makes a simple talking-heads argument look in Frank's link!  Great use of space and position to emphasise conflict. Terrific artist.

I've been pondering parallels between Hershey and McGruder lately - both parachuted in after a terrible disaster because there was no-one else left (twice in McGruder's case), both serving two separate terms, both losing the plot and coming into conflict with Dredd in the second one, both increasingly embroiled in secret plots and crazy innovations to maintain control.

The hair-chin moment in Small House makes parallels explicit, but there's also the matter of the dune shark - a symbol of the world Judges supposedly exist to protect citizens from, but who introduced dune sharks to the Cursed Earth in the first place?
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: Frank on 24 November, 2018, 11:35:58 AM

Great observations. McCrea's come a long way since Dougie & Ivor

(https://i.imgur.com/7c9km8H.jpg)


Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: BPP on 25 November, 2018, 02:06:13 PM
The Small House and Brink are so good I'm not looking at that prog 2019 thread till my sub arrives.

#nerveshredding.
Title: Re: Prog 2108 - Germ Warfare
Post by: BPP on 25 November, 2018, 02:06:42 PM
2109 even.