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Author Topic: The Political Thread  (Read 591478 times)

Tjm86

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #13500 on: 19 June, 2017, 07:14:00 pm »
That's pretty much where I've got to.  It's almost like a dam has been broken.  A lot of fear and resentment has been let loose but directed in such a negative way.  Rather than challenging and questioning, these views have been embraced and reinforced.  We have a level of maturity in the national conversation that would not be out of place on a primary school playground.

Jim_Campbell

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #13501 on: 19 June, 2017, 07:18:52 pm »
But then I thought Jim did a typically better-worded job clarifying what I thought I'd clearly said.

Very kind of you, but I don't think I did!
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Hawkmumbler

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #13502 on: 19 June, 2017, 07:27:42 pm »
This is where the Brexit vote has turned out to be most pernicious.  As much as it galls me to turn it to this, we now have a national mindset of intolerance and isolationism that desperately needs to be challenged.

Cameron, Farage, Johnson et al have a lot to answer for.

I really don't think the EU ref. created this mindset, if that's what you're suggesting - just emboldened those who already held certain views into expressing them more freely.
Exactly this, remember the spike of hate crimes commited on ethnic and sexual/gender minorities that occured just hours after te polls closed? Still not really subsided since.

IndigoPrime

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #13503 on: 19 June, 2017, 08:12:37 pm »
I'm hearing of people with any discernible accent being abused and told to "go home". A long-time colleague of mine, born in the UK, and of partial Pakistani descent, for the first time ever after Brexit had the "Paki" insult lobbed his way and was told to go home, albeit not quite so politely. The network I've built up online is now full of people who thought this country was their home very suddenly finding it apparently is not, and that the UK is in fact packed full of zealots, bigots and xenophobes.

It's hard to tell the numbers. Perhaps it's even a minority, despite the Brexit vote. But the fact remains that, as stated, these people have been continually emboldened, while the rights of anyone who is not British continue to fester or at best be left in limbo.

Apparently, we'll hear next week about the "generous" deal the UK plans for EU citizens. I'll bet it's a bag of shit that doesn't actually deal with many of the problems ministers have been briefed on for a year now – but that will nonetheless play well with the press. (Prediction: expect lots of wording around "rights for workers" and "those legally resident". Anyone who doesn't meet those two things will be fucked.)

The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #13504 on: 19 June, 2017, 08:20:32 pm »
Yes, there are bad people in this world who do bad things - but there are more, far more, good people who do good things. One maniac in a van does not outweigh the hundreds who helped out after that appalling fire, for instance.

Evil is loud, goodness is quiet.

Hawkmumbler

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #13505 on: 19 June, 2017, 08:27:09 pm »
Thats all well and good Sharky but thats not the point being made in combatting systemic opression and hate crime and terrorism.

sheridan

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #13506 on: 19 June, 2017, 08:29:03 pm »
This is where the Brexit vote has turned out to be most pernicious.  As much as it galls me to turn it to this, we now have a national mindset of intolerance and isolationism that desperately needs to be challenged.

Cameron, Farage, Johnson et al have a lot to answer for.

I really don't think the EU ref. created this mindset, if that's what you're suggesting - just emboldened those who already held certain views into expressing them more freely.
Exactly this, remember the spike of hate crimes commited on ethnic and sexual/gender minorities that occured just hours after te polls closed? Still not really subsided since.

Yes - I have friends who reported a dramatic increase immediately after the Brexit result, freshly empowered by the government, media rhetoric and the 37% of the electorate who voted leave.

Tjm86

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #13507 on: 19 June, 2017, 08:50:40 pm »
Although its origins are contentious, the quote attribute to Burke:

Quote
The only thing necessary for evil to flourish is that good men do nothing

is incredibly apposite.  As a nation we are responsible for the current landscape and as a nation we can challenge it.  Although Britain has a long and pernicious history it has also sought to redeem itself.  The question then is are we going to give ourselves over to the hatred or are we going to challenge it?

It really does not matter whether it is Islamophobia, racism, homophobia or any other form of extremism.  Each and every one of us has a responsibility to stand up and challenge it.  The only way that is going to happen is by doing exactly the opposite of what hate mongers want us to do; hate.  Even those we find most offensive such as Mail and Express readers.  We have a simple choice, either buy into it and drag ourselves down or stand firm and say 'here is the line'.  If we 'turn the other cheek' then we have a chance.

The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #13508 on: 19 June, 2017, 09:08:33 pm »
Although its origins are contentious, the quote attribute to Burke:

Quote
The only thing necessary for evil to flourish is that good men do nothing

is incredibly apposite.  As a nation we are responsible for the current landscape and as a nation we can challenge it.  Although Britain has a long and pernicious history it has also sought to redeem itself.  The question then is are we going to give ourselves over to the hatred or are we going to challenge it?

It really does not matter whether it is Islamophobia, racism, homophobia or any other form of extremism.  Each and every one of us has a responsibility to stand up and challenge it.  The only way that is going to happen is by doing exactly the opposite of what hate mongers want us to do; hate.  Even those we find most offensive such as Mail and Express readers.  We have a simple choice, either buy into it and drag ourselves down or stand firm and say 'here is the line'.  If we 'turn the other cheek' then we have a chance.

Hear, hear.


SuperSurfer

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #13509 on: 19 June, 2017, 09:41:40 pm »
I'm hearing of people with any discernible accent being abused and told to "go home".

I think some intellectually challenged people were under the impression that Brexit was a vote "to get them out". When the result went their way, I reckon they believed they could indulge themselves and let out what they were probably bursting at the seams to contain within themselves for years.

A day or so before the EU referendum the guy who was sitting next to me where I often work, said: "I'm voting leave. To get you lot out!" It was of course an ironic 'joke' as there is no way he meant it. But it was later on when I thought – huh? –am I meant to take jokes like that? Felt as if I had woken up back in the 70s to 90s.

The next day, it became clear that the work guy is a staunch remainer. He was appalled at the outcome of the referendum. As a liberal open minded guy who happens to be gay, I thought he should know better. But that's how people from immigrant communities were always meant to react – accept such jokes as "just banter".

Meanwhile, on the other side of the studio there is a constant barrage of generalisations about "straight white men" including a recent joke about banning them from a meeting and burning them. How funny.

It's all a laugh, you see. Got to be able to take a joke, don't you?

sheridan

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #13510 on: 19 June, 2017, 10:17:51 pm »
I'm hearing of people with any discernible accent being abused and told to "go home".

I think some intellectually challenged people were under the impression that Brexit was a vote "to get them out". When the result went their way, I reckon they believed they could indulge themselves and let out what they were probably bursting at the seams to contain within themselves for years.

I don't know where they could have gotten that impression from...



Modern Panther

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #13511 on: 19 June, 2017, 10:59:19 pm »
And the scary thing is that this isn't going to just go away.  Our world is sliding further right and filling with rage and victimhood, blaming all its woes on someone, anyone, else.

  These people aren't going to see nurses leaving the country, or a collapse in EU negotiations leading to mass unemployment, or the welfare state becoming a distant memory, and think "gee, maybe fear and isolationism isn't the way to go".  They're just going to find someone else to blame it on.

Hate preacher for hire K*tie H**kins was only a few weeks ago telling her followers to "get angry and fight back", reposting far right Twitter accounts and blaming everything wrong with Britain on Sadiq Khan, Diane Abbot and fat folk.  Now she calling for calm and compelling daily mail readers to "step back from the brink and stop screaming at each other like children"...a problem with society that she promptly blames on the evil leftists destroying Britain with their liberalism.


Eric Plumrose

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #13512 on: 19 June, 2017, 11:18:56 pm »
I didn't know who you are suggesting might consider this a 'lesser' than terrorism incident. If it is me, then you are mistaken.

No. I'm saying that, irrespective of what -- ultimately -- the offense is confirmed to be (or has been, I've been doing Dad stuff since quarter-past three this afternoon), of course the police are going to treat it as nothing less than a possible act of terrorism until satisfied otherwise. Unfortunately, this gets interpreted as it being an actual act of terrorism, compounded by not only every single bit of hearsay and subjective opinion on social media but the news channels themselves. It's a self-perpetuating narrative that if later proven false people will rather cry 'foul' than admit they were wrong by jumping to erroneous conclusions.

You stated that "Khan had already declared it to be a terrorist attack, pre-empting the police statement."

My point was about timing not whether it was a terrorist incident or not. I was illustrating that the Police were treating this as a suspected terrorist incident and I gave the times that they put out that information. I was pointing out that terrorist units were investigating and the Met stated this at 04.46.

The Metropolitan Police tweeted about the above one hour before Sadiq Khan, as far as I can see. 

There seems to be a narrative developing on social media and in the news that authorities were slow to react to and to condemn this despicable act. I fear that if claims are exaggerated then that will drive a wedge between communities, that it will fuel anger and a lack of trust.

People's fears must be acknowledged and acted on but people should err on the side of caution, as you suggest as well.

Agreed. The Met may well have briefed Khan to say what he did but that's not how it was reported (hence me saying 'According to Sky News . . .'). Either way, it simply feeds into the aforementioned narrative. Which is why I urged caution. Not just regarding this event, but every other event involving possible terrorist activity.
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SuperSurfer

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #13513 on: 20 June, 2017, 12:47:01 pm »
I'm saying that, irrespective of what -- ultimately -- the offense is confirmed to be… of course the police are going to treat it as nothing less than a possible act of terrorism until satisfied otherwise. Unfortunately, this gets interpreted as it being an actual act of terrorism, compounded by not only every single bit of hearsay and subjective opinion on social media but the news channels themselves. It's a self-perpetuating narrative that if later proven false people will rather cry 'foul' than admit they were wrong by jumping to erroneous conclusions.

…The Met may well have briefed Khan to say what he did but that's not how it was reported (hence me saying 'According to Sky News . . .'). Either way, it simply feeds into the aforementioned narrative. Which is why I urged caution. Not just regarding this event, but every other event involving possible terrorist activity.
Agree with your points, Eric. Of course the police had to respond as if this was an act of terrorism. It was clear in their tweets (as far as I could see) that they were doing just that.

Modern Panther

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #13514 on: 20 June, 2017, 05:58:45 pm »

DUP complain about the Conservative "lack of negotiating experience".  That bodes well for Europe.  Right Wing Unionists failing to sell right wing unionism to Right Wing Unionists, but don't worry about sorting out all those trade deals folks, that'll be fine.

What exactly could the DUP be asking for that the Tories, who happily out Ukipped Ukip, aren't willing to hand them to remain in power?