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Conspiracy Theory Debate

Started by Funt Solo, 10 April, 2020, 07:24:20 PM

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Rara Avis

The internet has played a massive role in all this. 30 years ago if you believed in some conspiracy it was really hard to find people who agreed with you but now they are all only a click away. You can be in contact with people that validate and share your opinions in seconds whereas years ago if you tried to tell your family or friends that the government is using modern technology to reset the world and turn us all into China but capitalist they'd say 'Don't be daft'. The most dangerous thing about all this is that we now live in a time where we no longer have a shared sense of reality.

I have a lost of friend to QAnon - she went from being a relatively normal person who was maybe too trusting of alterntaive medical theories (plastic water bottles give you cancer etc) and has now gone to full on tinfoil hat wearing Pro Trump loonie.  Her most common refrain is 'Do your research' because she researched all of this herself online so she couldn't be wrong - right?

https://medium.com/curiouserinstitute/a-game-designers-analysis-of-qanon-580972548be5


Tjm86

One of the more 'amusing' aspects of conspiracy theory adherents appears to be the distrust of authority ...

... "but Q says it so it must be true ..."

So because some lunatic suggests that the world is being run by a cabal of [ancient middle eastern monotheistic religion adherents / lizard people / money people back to first)] who are being provided with a steady stream of young children to feed their sexual gratification and need for blood it must be more true than suggesting that the so-called 'expert' is actually talking out of their sphincter ...

... meanwhile Covid must have been created by a cabal of America, Russian, Chinese .... scientists in a lab in Wuhan before being released into a market place, transported deliberately to a ski resort in Italy so that British tourists can bring it back to the UK because .... well, just ... because ...

Nope, I think the late, great Sir Terry P said it best ... "The truth is out there ... but the lies are in your head ..."   :-\ :o :-X :crazy:

JayzusB.Christ

#32
QuoteI would like nothing better than to believe that lockdowns and masks and all that will save civilization, it would be so comforting. I wish you could convince me.] I would like nothing better than to believe that lockdowns and masks and all that will save civilization, it would be so comforting. I wish you could convince me.
Sorry, I've tried to stay out of this (because, well, I like the Shark and don't like the idea of ganging up on anyone), but I find this somewhat insulting, as if anyone who tries to follow medically-advised rules to protect themselves and others is somehow living in a fantasy world.  Nobody's saying the rules are going to 'save civilisation' - they're damage control.  We've failed to keep the virus out of our countries so we're trying to do our best to keep the devastation to a minimum.

As for trying to convince you - no, sorry, I'm not going to try because I don't think I can.  I'm not a medical expert so I defer to those who are - there's an overwhelming imbalance in favour of those who support 'lockdowns and masks and all that', which suggests to me that we very, very probably should go along with these rules.  But if that's not enough then I don't have anything else.
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest"

sintec

"Do your own research" seems to be a phrase mostly parrotted by people who've never actually been involved in doing any kind of research into anything. What they've accomplished isn't even a literature review let alone a piece of actual research. Watching videos of random people on youtube ranting about stuff from their spare bedroom does not constitute research. I really hate that phrase because it devalues actual research. It is no more research than the crap Hubbard published for Scientology was research/technology.

Interestingly I see a lot of parallels between Scientology and things like QAnon.  Not least that Trump's speechs actually sound a lot like Hubbard's lectures (I went through a phase of listening to lectures/sermons by cult leaders because I find cults really fascinating). But also in the way it constructs layers of story one on top of the other and rewards adherants for "discovering" the even greater "truth" as they make advances in their "research". It's brainwashing/indocrination. Scientology was just a bit more brazen in how it extracted $s from its adherents - plenty of ad revenue being directed at some of the more popular QAnon vloggers and websites though so I'm sure there are some just playing a part for the $s.

People need to read Robert Anton Wilson's Illuminatus trilogy - actually given their ability to misinterpret things like Fight Club maybe that's a terrible idea.

TordelBack

Quote from: sintec on 24 February, 2021, 08:37:10 AM
People need to read Robert Anton Wilson's Illuminatus trilogy - actually given their ability to misinterpret things like Fight Club maybe that's a terrible idea.

Medically-mandated morning laugh achieved!

The Legendary Shark


Sorry I'm late, I've had a busy couple of days wrestling a pile of twisted wreckage back into a greenhouse. Interesting thread so far.

Anyhoo, I was thinking - shall we try a proper debate? Say Funt and me each putting our case in a formal way, opening statements, questions, rebuttal, spectator questions, closing statements - or however it goes. I think I'd like to try that - it sounds rather civilised.

If you agree, I'd like to argue a position along the lines of, "not all conspiracy theories are mad and not all madness is a conspiracy," or similar.

Admins, may I re-post the previously deleted links in order to support my argument? Perhaps just for a limited period, say 24 hours? The link without the title? The title without the link? I understand and accept that your decision is final.

Anyway, I'm off to start putting the glass in.

Bbl.

[move]~~~^~~~~~~~[/move]




CalHab

Quote from: Professor Bear on 23 February, 2021, 05:49:04 PM
If it matters, it started with my awareness of the dissonance between their reporting on Northern Ireland and my own experiences (starting with a demonstration in our town center that I attended and which involved a sit-down protest that lasted 30 minutes and then dispersed peacefully that was described by the BBC as "clashes" with police)  I also gather Scottish nationalists in recent years have had some thoughts on the idea of BBC impartiality.

This is largely my view. I view the BBC, or rather specific journalists, as reliable on scientific and non-political subjects. I also think that it follows the UK government's view and policy on international issues, which would also include NI and Scotland. There is a huge disparity between how Scotland is presented in UK news and the reality of the country. The same is obviously, and sometimes disastrously, true of NI.

Professor Bear

Quote from: Funt Solo on 24 February, 2021, 01:54:35 AM
Or we could impugn a female journalist's professional integrity without suggesting that she's an ugly slut ... right? There's a time and a place for that sort of casual, everyday misogyny.

This is just sad now.

Modern Panther

Quote"not all conspiracy theories are mad and not all madness is a conspiracy,"

As far as I'm aware, no one here has suggested they are. 

Representatives of some country's government did well documented drug experiments on unwitting subjects = a conspiracy.

A global pandemic was created by a secret cabal in order to maintain control of international banking = something that someone made up.


Quote... "but Q says it so it must be true ..."

I saw a fascinating interaction on twitter earlier today.  Someone had posted a joke about a Fox "news" man pretending that Qanoners have never actually existed outside the mind of those crazy liberals, as evidenced by Qanon not being a website.

This was followed up by a guy insisting this was true, and that no-one actually believes in Q.  When it was pointed out that only a few weeks before he had himself been tweeting in support of Qconspiracy theories, he claimed to be a victim of a liberal conspiracy.

When the conspiracy that made you feel special turns out to be baseless, just change the rules and pretend you always believed in something else.

IndigoPrime

Quote from: Professor Bear on 24 February, 2021, 12:08:39 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 24 February, 2021, 01:54:35 AM
Or we could impugn a female journalist's professional integrity without suggesting that she's an ugly slut ... right? There's a time and a place for that sort of casual, everyday misogyny.

This is just sad now.
Honestly, as an admin, I agree with Funt Solo on this. Please, let's try and avoid that kind of thing when referring to women. And it's not like there aren't other ways of criticising Kuenssberg.

Tjm86

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 24 February, 2021, 10:39:27 AM
Anyhoo, I was thinking - shall we try a proper debate? Say Funt and me each putting our case in a formal way, opening statements, questions, rebuttal, spectator questions, closing statements -

See this is what I love about this place.  Give it five minutes and someone comes along with a perfectly reasonably sounding statement that just shows the whole shebang for the colossal joke it is!

The Legendary Shark

Quote from: Modern Panther on 24 February, 2021, 12:09:45 PM
Quote"not all conspiracy theories are mad and not all madness is a conspiracy,"

As far as I'm aware, no one here has suggested they are. 



I'm happy to change to another topic, my suggestion was a preference, not a request.

[move]~~~^~~~~~~~[/move]




Professor Bear

Quote from: Modern Panther on 24 February, 2021, 12:09:45 PM
Quote... "but Q says it so it must be true ..."

I saw a fascinating interaction on twitter earlier today.  Someone had posted a joke about a Fox "news" man pretending that Qanoners have never actually existed outside the mind of those crazy liberals, as evidenced by Qanon not being a website.

This was followed up by a guy insisting this was true, and that no-one actually believes in Q.  When it was pointed out that only a few weeks before he had himself been tweeting in support of Qconspiracy theories, he claimed to be a victim of a liberal conspiracy.

Honestly, I thought Q was something akin to 4chan or Anonymous: just an online, decentralised bunch of people posting stuff and doing the odd bit of IRL activism, and it was pretty late in the day before I twigged that Q was (supposedly) an actual individual - and I consider myself pretty online.  Now admittedly I don't fall on that side of the political spectrum and wouldn't have been seeking out their latest news or updates, but Q genuinely seemed more akin to an idea than anything else and I'd be surprised if I was the only one who thought that way.  It's not hard to see "Q" becoming something more intangible and nebulous.

QuoteWhen the conspiracy that made you feel special turns out to be baseless, just change the rules and pretend you always believed in something else.

There's an obvious joke about the last 6 years of British centrism somewhere in there.

Definitely Not Mister Pops

I took it that while Q was single username, a group or several groups of people were collaborating through a discord (aptly named) to decide what truth would be revealed by the account. Kind of like reverse sock puppetry.
You may quote me on that.

Funt Solo

#44
I'm not really interested in a formalized debate, Shark.

It was really pleasant to see your art on the sketch thread. You have an easy-seeming way to depict meaningful scenes that I am in awe of.

I've tried to avoid responding to your political posts recently because it seemed that we got into a bit of repetitive back and forth that I just found frustrating. For me, it's like debating with an eel - because the focus seems to constantly shift. That may be engaging for you, but for me it's a mostly negative experience.

Where I have responded recently, it's just that there's something in me that feels like it can't let what I see as disinformation slide by unchallenged. Like, if someone's openly racist, I feel morally bankrupt if I don't challenge it. I feel like I'm agreeing with it. As up-thread a bit, I felt I had to challenge a couple of really funny guys on what I saw as open misogyny. I knew that was going to go down like a lead balloon, but the alternative was to be sitting in a room with people going "yeah - she's a c***-****ing deformed b***h - ha ha - just kidding - what, can't you take a joke?"

And then I'm going to turn around to my wife and my daughter with a straight face and go "yeah, just hanging on the board with my buds, yeah, it's all cool". My daughter reads comics - she might be on a forum one day - she might be reading the casual debasement of women. Or we could just stop doing that.

Which isn't what you were doing, Shark. You were just downplaying the Covid. And, I've asked you why you feel the need to do that (wayyyy up-thread). But (while I am curious to a degree) mostly I just wanted you to stop spamming the Covid thread with those opinions. And I've done that for now. So ... job done.
++ A-Z ++  coma ++