2000 AD Online Forum

"Alex Fitch interviews artists Glenn Fabry and John McCrea, two very different artists who have worked on comics in Britain and America and have both illustrated strips by writer Garth Ennis. The majority of today's show is concerned with Glenn's work from his seminal run on Sláine in 2000AD to his epic run of painted covers for DC comics' Preacher which are available in a coffee table book.

Towards the end of the show Alex talks to John McCrea about the 60 issues he drew of Ennis' superhero satire Hitman (and their interview continues next week)."

Link: I'm ready for my podcast - Glenn Fabry & John McCr

I hear both Alex Fitch and Glenn Fabry  disaggree about the correct pronouciation of Slaine.

As I sill haven't quite worked it out myself.

There are a zillion threads about the pronunciation of Sláine

Here is my conclusion and I'm sticking to it

In Irish it is pronounced Slawnya (sort of , it depends what part of Ireland you're from)

But if you're speaking in English it's Slane ( as in the place I watched the Rolling Stones play last week)

So...Tin-Tin; is it pronounced Tan tan?

Dredd, Sam Slade, Slaine - it's pretty fucking obvious how it's supposed to be pronounced.

Oh, and it's Ton-ton.

phew* glad that's sorted





*sounds like few

Well, of course I use the English version.

"In Irish it is pronounced Slawnya"

No debate surely? Mills has said it's meant to be pronounced Slawnyeh, which IS the Irish pronunciation. It's his character & he's using Gaelic, and as someone who can speak Irish I concur.

Besides, pronouncing it Slain is daft. Might as well have a fearsome warrior called Killed, or Dead.
"Where's Killed?"
"Yonder, chatting with Murdered."

Not so ferocious, eh?

::"Mills has said it's meant to be pronounced Slawnyeh"

Has he?  In a recent pod-cast, he pronounced it Slaine, as in slain.  

As for the daftness of pronouncing it that way, you're talking about a character in a comic that contains Dredd and Slade (who even says "that's s-l-a-y-e-d to you").  If that's not enough to convince you that the creators of 2000AD love to pun - how about the first name of the Rogue Trooper being Rogue?  (And let's not forget Helm, Gunnar, Bagman and Buttplug!)

How about the slightly less straightforward innocent hero: Halo (not pronounced Hullo).

Canon Fodder? A.H.A.B?  (See, they're still doing it now.)

You mean Slade doesn't rhyme with..???

Nipples!

Joe Pi-nipples?

"Has he?" Yep; don't know the prog but it was a 2-page spread back in the early-ish days, going on about the use of Irish mythology (either that or in a letters page - it was more than 20 years ago anyway).

Dredd inspires feelings of Dread; that works. As you say "that's s-l-a-y-e-d to you" for Sam & it's a crappy joke in a funny story. Both above characters created of course by Wagner, not Mills.

I don't speak of Millar or his ... produce.

Never read A.H.A.B. so can't comment and Halo? Sounds like a nice name for a girl a doting parent would bestow, like Aisling (Irish for Dream), or April or etc. Serendipitous - yes, apt or significant - of course.

Daft? No - unlike calling a tough guy Passed Away.

And again: that's how it is pronounced in Irish/gaelic, complete with the use of the fada over the A.

PS Rogue? Pah, as someone once joked it's as well they didn't have biochips in footwear, jocks or knives, cos GFD wouldn't have hesitated to call 'em Stabman, Booter & Pants.

No, but Slaine rhymes with

Not that I want to argue with the creator. I have spent most of the last twenty years of which I have known of this character pronoucing it as it appears to my english speaking perspective.

For it's phonetic quality and I have always associated the word as it sounds with death and killing.

Though I understand it's meaning is Gaelic for 'Health' these days. Which is quite the opposite.

I guess I would more be comfortable with it's corrcct Gaelic sound if I took that as second language.

Though, I'm not much good with foreign languages at the moment.

So, if nobody minds, I keep pronoucing it 'Slayy-NNe'

Slainte ( Is that how you say bye bye in Gaelic.)

Dredd inspires feelings of Dread; that works. As you say "that's s-l-a-y-e-d to you" for Sam & it's a crappy joke in a funny story. Both above characters created of course by Wagner, not Mills.


Judge Dredd9Dread) was a Mills name though.

And speaking as an Irish person myself, I don't give a good fuck about how Slaine is pronounced.

"I understand it's meaning is Gaelic for 'Health' these days." Close but not quite. Slainte is Health, generally as in Good health, commonly used like Cheers when toasting.

Slaine is a name; has no real meaning (AFAIK).

"if nobody minds, I keep pronoucing it 'Slayy-NNe'" Don't mind at all.

But someone posted above: "it's pretty fucking obvious how it's supposed to be pronounced" which is a bit strident, eh?

"And speaking as an Irish person myself, I don't give a good fuck about how Slaine is pronounced."

Really? If someone pronounced Fermanagh as Fir-man-agg you wouldn't feel like helping them out?

If I went & called Gloucestershire Glow-Sess-Ter-Shy-er I'd appreciate knowing I was maybe not exactly getting it right.

Call it Slain if you want, but you can't surely be saying it's irrelevant that there's a correct pronunciation.

Anyway, I'm done.

Strident, that's me.  Well, on a message board, where people can't mash my face to a bloody pulp, I'm strident.  In person I'm timid and accomodating.

Pronounce it whatever way you're most comfortable with la la traipse merrily through the corn fields tra la.

Anyway - never mind all that - there's a picture of abundant cleavage up there!  Far more entertaining than my work-avoidance diatribes.  And this a thread on Fabry & McCrea, as well.

There's a river in Ireland called (in Irish) An Sláine, which in English is called

The Slaney

which would be a crap name for whats-his-face with axe

but let's hope this debate never, ever ends

And speaking as an Irish person myself, I don't give a good fuck about how Slaine is pronounced."

Really? If someone pronounced Fermanagh as Fir-man-agg you wouldn't feel like helping them out?


Mmmm. Helping someone with directions is slightly different to a debate about a fictional comic character.

but let's hope this debate never, ever ends

Here here!

To further complicate matters, the place where the historical Sláine is buried is called Slane.

"Mmmm. Helping someone with directions is slightly different to a debate about a fictional comic character."

It's not really, since Sláine is an actual historical name, it would be like someone pronouncing your own name the wrong way.

The Irish pronouciation 'Slaw-nay' ( How Alex Fitch pronouced it.) does sound femminine. Which isn't surpising considering I've heard this name isn't gender specific.

As for the OBVIOUS pronouciation of "Slaine". Well the english pronouciation has always been OBVIOUS to me. As for the supposedly CORRECT Irish pronouciation. NO, I've always been lost there and never really been clear on it until I heard it from the mouth of Alex Fitch.

Even when someone writes down the Galeic pronouciation. It's still alitte bit vague until I here somebody actualley say the word "Slaw-Nay" or "Slane".

But if the comic is written in English, then I might as well stick with the English pronouciation of "Slaine". Otherwise, it it might as well be entirely Gaelic.

It doesn't make it any easier that the name Slaine might have some connection the to river called 'Slaney', or the 'Hill of Slane'.


Eldritch said ....

""Besides, pronouncing it Slain is daft. Might as well have a fearsome warrior called Killed, or Dead.
"Where's Killed?"
"Yonder, chatting with Murdered."

Not so ferocious, eh?""

Well, while it doesn't sound so ferocious, the name may still be found applicable to the Celtic barbaian's more ghoulish aspect of fighting the the half-dead, avoiding death and finally coming back from it as well.

Eldritch also said.....

"""I understand it's meaning is Gaelic for 'Health' these days." Close but not quite. Slainte is Health, generally as in Good health, commonly used like Cheers when toasting.""

Well, Slaine might be a good name for a beverage.

That's a idea.

Slaine, I mean cheers

Link: One of the others occasions .....

Sorry, but to repeat: slainTe is health/cheers.

Slaine - without a "t" - is a name.

Okay..

I was also just thinking there is another fellow, who wears black and carries scyth..

Iv'e more than a few simlarities between him and Slaine.

The Grim Reaper....

Also known as Death....

Know one laughs at this interpretation of his name being Death.

Atleast not my knowledge!

So why laugh the english iterpretation of Slaine.

Cos his name is Death - not Dead, not Killed or Murdered.

The difference between he is death & he is slain is pretty clear I think.

Daeth is a noun; killed, slain etc are participles or used adjectivally.

Just to keep this trundling along...

"The Irish pronouciation 'Slaw-nay' ( How Alex Fitch pronouced it.) does sound femminine. Which isn't surpising considering I've heard this name isn't gender specific. "

I have a friend , a girl, her name is Sláine and it is pronounced Slawn-yeh

As to pronouncing the charcter Slane or Sláine - i reckon they're both correct.

Of course if you're not an Irish speaker using the Gaelic pronunciation is akin to calling that large city in France "Pareee"

Apparently "Germany" is actually pronounced "Deutschland".

oh ja? i didn't know zat

If you all really want to know how to pronounce
Sláine, it is Slawnyeh.  And nothing else.

There is no 'debate' about the pronunciation at all.  The word Sláine is Irish.  It is not in any way Anglicised when spelled that way.  It is Irish, plain and simple.  It has one pronunciation: Slawnyeh.  That is it.  The fact that there is a river somewhere pronounced Slaney, an Anglicised place-name of Slane, or someone's friend was given the unique name of Slaw-nay by her parents has NO bearing or influence on this word's actual pronunciation.  This Irish word is ancient and has been pronounced a particular way for an incredibly long time.  Nobody can debate its pronunciation into something else.  Whatever way you all have been saying the word, the word is said as Slawnyeh.  It started that way, continued that way for over a thousand years, and remains that way now that the name is used for a comic character.

So, in closing: when you see Slane, say 'slain'.  When you see Slaney, say 'slain-y'.  When you see Sláine, say "slawnyeh".  That is its only pronunciation.  If you have been saying it wrong up to this point, well I'm sorry.  It is an Irish word and should be pronounced according to Irish pronunciation rules.  

I don't want the people who think they are right to argue the pronunciation of an old, established Irish word to be offended, but you are wasting your time.  Slawnyeh.  That is it.  It ain't up for debate, mate.

Jebus, Claym00re, climb down off that fence and have an opinion, for Grud's sake.  

Bloody wishy-washy liberals etc.

It's Captain fucking MAIN - WEARING

Hi, Pat.

I agree Johhnny Stress that suddenly speaking on of Gaelic in a English sentence appaers strange.

 I'm of the opinion that words from any ancient language are filled with magic and you may have to be careful of who's listening when using correct pronouciation.

 With my repeated English or Anglisised use of the word Slaine I do too connect the meaning of this word with Death. I'm not terribly concerned with wether it's noun or adjective. I take the name and I look at the comic. The 'Killing Field' is good example. With Slaine standing in a field of many, many corpses. I take the English meaning of the word Slaine in context with what happen on pages.

Maybe that's WHY he killed all those people:

All those people: "Slain - funny name for a breathing bloke!"

Slaine: "It's fecking Slahnweigh, you c*nts!  WAAAARGH!"

[10 minutes later]

Voice of Grud/Danu: "He didn't think it too many."

It's Captain fucking MAIN - WEARING

Thank fuck he wasn't a Lieutenant.

If you all really want to know how to pronounce
Sláine, it is Slawnyeh. And nothing else.

To a 9 year old in 1983 it isn't.


So, in closing: when you see Slane, say 'slain'. When you see Slaney, say 'slain-y'. When you see Sláine, say

Whatever the fuck I want, thank you. Who the hell are you to order us how to pronounce things? I suggest pulling your tongue out of your own ringpiece, then you might not be so full of your own shit.

Sorry, I meant only pronouciation instead of corrrect pronouciation.

"I agree Johhnny Stress that suddenly speaking on of Gaelic in a English sentence appaers strange"

That's fine, but you were the one who started this debate by wondering how it's actually pronounced.
I've given you the correct pronunciation and have also tried to show why I think it is unsuitable to call a character like that Slain.

To be honest, I'm not really quite sure why there is such resistance to pronouncing it Slawnyeh.

Why, for example, do we all pronounce Sean as Shawn, and not Seen as in mean?  It is a Gaelic name which is generally pronounced correctly.  Why?  Probably because it is well-known; people know how to say it.  If you heard somebody mispronouncing it I'm sure 99% of you would -- hopefully with good intentions -- try and help the person say it correctly.

The same with Sláine: the name has a correct pronunciation; I'm sure you can understand why somebody would go to the effort to try and answer your initial question.

Mills may well have been initially attracted to the name because it did read to him as slain but there has been an effort in the comic to try and show the correct pronunciation.

As I said before, it's up to you how you want to say it. Gotta say, I really don't understand the attitude of "I don't care how it's pronounced," though.

I'm on the fence as to this, but I cant remember the strip ever trying to tell us how its pronounced - can you point out an example?  I did find it funny that Pat says "Slain" in that podcast, but only because the interviewers had gone to the effort of trying to do it 'right'!

Doesn't the strip tell us how to pronounce it in the very first episode?

Maybe it's later - but do you remember, along with one of the earliest episodes, there's a map of Tir Nan Og, and some text info. about the research that went into creating the Slaine strip.  

My memory may be all kinds of wrong (although just one will do), but doesn't it have the correct pronunciation there?  I can check when I get home from work.

In here, somewhere, I'm thinking:

"I cant remember the strip ever trying to tell us how its pronounced - can you point out an example?"

Sadly I can't.  I have a vague recollection of a two-page spread and if it wasn't mentioned there I am pretty sure it was specified in an answer to a letter.  I live in Japan and my progs are a million miles away so there's no chance of me being able to dig it up, but somebody else might.

::"I suggest pulling your tongue out of your own ringpiece"

That, combined with my semi-blocked right ear causing a permanent feeling of car sickness, is getting me far too close to boking for comfort.  Yuck! Bad Wils!

Well in fairness 'Slawnyeh' IS the correct pronunciation- but if you've grown up reading it as Slane then, so what?

Gila Munja-  Heela Munya?

Funtlock Holmes reporting:

The 2-page article I'm thinking of is in prog 352, which has this gorgeous cover:



The map of Tir Nan Og is in prog 330, and there's a 1-page feature of some sort in prog 331 as well.

At this juncture let us remind ourselves that in 80s melodrama The Thornbirds the ranch was called Drogheda- which was hilariously ( to Irish people) mispronounced Dro-heee-da

In another show, Dynasty ( i think) French people thought it amusing that the nightclub was called 'La Mirage' when in fact the correct grammar should have been 'Le Mirage'. What a howler eh?


So, Sláine has also been mispronounced over the years. It's understandable as it's a non-English word..

but do carry on

and if anyone wants to discuss soap operas from the 80s please feel free

It's like English BBC news reporters trying to say Magherafelt.

Dynasty: is that 'die-nasty' or 'dinisty'?

see also Dawnigle instead of Dunny-gaaaawl (Donegal)

Or Slaine instead of... err...

While I'm mainly on the 'I'll pronounce it how I want, thanks' side of the fence, I can appreciate how annoying it is to have one's name constantly mispronounced - for over twenty years people have been mispronouncing my surname at every oppurtunity, to the extent where I can no longer even be bothered to correct them when they do. I now just sigh, and die a little more inside.

I believe that the ONLY pronouciation was shown in the first episode (Prog 493) of the 'Spoils of Annwn'(Pronounced Anoon)

I recall from the panel with boat in it and the words 'Slawnyeh' written somewhere on the page.

Not that reading that particular word helped.

I think I might have just about made the right noise to go with those letters, but I othewise just kept right on pronoucing it the incorrect way.







 

Link: Just scroll down to 'Spoils of Annwn'

Fair play.

Iâ??m sure itâ??s also in at least one Letter reply, too.

On a different note, I think itâ??s a real shame that this amicable debate had to be soured by someone whose only input to the thread was yet another effort to come across as the board tough guy - and Iâ??m bored of it, â??tough guy.â?

While Claymooreâ??s tone might have been a bit peremptory it didnâ??t warrant that.

If that doesnâ??t go against the code of conduct then I donâ??t know what does (the code of conduct this same guy single-handedly saddled the entire board with) and, Wake, I believe he deserves censure.

Aha - the Spoils Of Annwn Data File from prog 493 - thanks ThryllSeekr - I'll check that out when I get home.

---

Careful, Eldritch - that kind of criticism can get you accused of a vibrant and exciting sex life. Or the hoary old classic of "not having a sense of humour" about being bullied.

I think we have come to a "crossroads" in this thread

There's not much evidence of good neighbours, that's for sure.

And that how 'Knights that say NAY' came to be.

I duly consider myself slapped around a bit by Meester Eldrich. Bad Wils!

Anyway... I think the thing here is that when Slaine was created, it was a story aimed at the demographic of the time (8-11 year olds?), so the readership would've generally pronounced everything pretty much phonetically. I remember reading the "Spoils of Ann-Win", for instance. To sort of retcon the pronunciation at a later date seems a bit daft when it wasn't made clear in the first place. I'm aware that the proper Gaelic pronunciation of the word Slaine is "Slawnyeh", but as a character in 2000ad, he'll always be "Slain" to me.

'Slain' sounds like a right double hard bastard.  'Slawnyeh' sounds like he's half asleep.  I think I know which one I prefer.

Wake, can you censure Eldritch, please?  He's boring me to death (although the image of Wils as board 'tough guy' is pretty comical).

You wear trousers the same colour as the Hulk's once...

Surely the most sensible, airy-fairy, PC and all-round diplomatic way to resolve this is to say:

a) Yes, the correct Celtic pronunciation of the name is "Slawn-yeh".  Huzzah for accuracy.

b) However, those of us who don't have much of a relationship with Correctness, who think "Slawn-yeh" sounds a bit rubbish, or who like to think that if Pat Mills can pronounce it wrong in an interview then so can we, are fully entitled to continue erroneously pronouncing it "Slain" as long as we want.


See?  Now everyone's happy.  The sticklers get to be Right, which of course is their universal imperative, and everyone else gets to flout their wrongosity.  It's like a little slice of God.

You 'take the high' road and I'll take the low road

Pffft. If you think we'll all get along that easy, Spurrier, you're living in some sort of 'Eldorado'.

It was brave to attempt to unravel the knots, landing gracefully at a peaceful solution.

*cough*

Enough! This is a comics forum!!!

What about that recent UK comic by Leah Moore? Reckon there an audience for this sort of thing? Would you ..reckon theres an Albion Market?

Well, maybe for the older reader, certainly not our sons and daughters.

Wils.

A lot of 9 year olds do things incorrectly, but they learn with age.  

Your rebuttals, Wils, are as weak as your insults are vile.  I point you towards Rule 12 of 2000AD's message board conduct rules.

Anyway, your arguments remained bested and the case remains rested.

'Slawnyeh', mate.  It's 'Slawnyeh'.

A lot of 9 year olds do things incorrectly, but they learn with age.

Although even Mills himself pronounces it as "Slain".

Your rebuttals, Wils, are as weak as your insults are vile. I point you towards Rule 12 of 2000AD's message board conduct rules.

And for that I do genuinely apologise, although you *are* coming across as very...superior about the pronunciation of this, which is what set me off. No need of me to launch at you quite like that, though. (#)

Anyway, your arguments remained bested and the case remains rested.

'Slawnyeh', mate. It's 'Slawnyeh'.

For you, but I'll be continuing to pronounce it "Slain" regardless.







(#) And, no, Eldrich. This apology has nothing to do with you threatening to tell teacher, before you pipe up.

Just to check on my other pronunciations...

It's Charley's War as in


Hershey as in


And Dredd as in

No, I don't think Hershey's pronounced 'Milf'.

Fuck me- what a condescending nob.  Go and tell Wake to look that one up in the rule book.

Oh- and welcome to the board.

I asked Mike Collins to do me a Slaine sketch in Milton Keynes and he just said "Oh right, Slain". At no point did Pat's mind control compel him to punch me in the face as punishment for grevious mispronounciation.

If that's not compelling evidence I don't know what is.

This debate has a bit more to it than it seems.

To argue that Sláine has to be pronounced a certain way because it's "the" correct "celtic" pronounciation is bloody hilarious.  

I'd initially invite anyone to take a trip through Ireland's various gaeltachts (Irish speaking areas) and find virtually any common pronounciation of anything. I'd then ask them to compare those multitudinious modern "living" pronounciations to the "received" Irish pronounciation largely invented from scratch during the late 19th century/ early 20th century in an effort to revive a tongue on the verge of extinction, then compare it to the likely Old Irish pronounciation, which no-one knows for sure because it's effectively a dead language derived from written sources (transposed from older oral sources) only - including the one from which "our" Sláine, "first High King of Ireland" allegedly derives his name.  

I'd then politely enquire what ANY of this has to do with a character who lived "before the flood" in "Tír na nÃ?g".  

Honestly, claiming knowledge of EXACTLY how a name like that SHOULD be pronounced is bizarre.  It's akin to complaining that Kevin Costner shouldn't have an American accent in King of Thieves because Robin Hood is English, despite the fact that what the son of a Norman lord (in that iteration) actually spoke is unlikely to have ANY relationship to "English".  

If the argument is that Pat Mills says it should be pronounced one way, that's another matter (although I doubt he's consitent about it) - but I'd always question the author's right to control how his work is interpreted anyway.

If the argument is that that's how it'd be pronounced in modern "received" Irish, I'd say what the hell does that have to do with Sláine?

As a kid in 80's Ireland, it'll always be "Slain" to me, fada or not.

Tordelback, I salute you.

Tordelback deserves cake!

lancashire is pronounced lankey-shur and not lanca-shyre.
darwen is pronounced darren.

slaine's slain to me and has been forever.
also due to my terrible spelling rogue troopers been "rouge"trooper on a couple of occasions!

what he does on his days off is of no concern to me

He may be saluted and he may deserve cake, but Tordelback, though intelligent and worthy in his approach, is wrong.

Irish was never almost extinct and it is plain wrong to suggest that common pronunciations of 'anything' are almost impossible to find across Gaeltacht.  It is borderline offensive, actually.  Can you imagine a conversation among several people if that were true?  Can you imagine an area of a country where nobody shared a common pronunciation with anyone else?!  Snap out of it.  Simply wrong.

What does this antediluvian, Tír na nÃ?g character have to do with Ireland's 1st (and mythical, I guess) High King?  Well, they have the same name.  And that's all we need concern ourselves with.  And with the same name comes, shock horror, the same pronunciation.  I have nothing to do AT ALL with several people from history, but we share a name and that name, would you believe, has a common pronunciation.  Is that so difficult to understand?

Suggesting that there is no official pronunciation for Irish words, though it may delight some on this thread, is pure gibberish.  May be well point out that English has no official, formalised set of grammar rules - which is actually doesn't - and therefore we can parse any sentence however we please.  But nobody would do that, because we all know it's daft.  Oh, please.  Just stop.

No matter how closely you emotionally connect to how you pronounced that word back in the day when you were all young uns, fact is it has a pronunciation.  An actual one.  And one, Tordelback, that makes use of the fada. (Or why put it there?)

Sláine = Slawnyeh.  

Not being of direct Celtic background myself or a ability to speak the old language. I find myself unable argue until.

I guess I can't argue this one way or the other myself. Until somebody wuth background and knowledge comes along. Though I have been pronoucing Slaine as Slane and I guess that in typical comic book fashion it sounds better.

Mind you I'm only saying that because I don't speak Gaelic fluently.

As Tordel says that no one really knows a language which is dead. It can only be guessed.

Working out this language might have just been like using the Frog DNA to complete the Dinosaur DNA sequence in 'Jurrassic Park'.

Is m00re pronounced bOOre?

Only joking! Your crazy antics over the correct pronunciation of a name that the writer probably picked because he thought it looked and sounded cool (while, no doubt, pronouncing it incorrect) is both life-affirming and funny.


- pj

That's all very well but how do you pronounce cheap tat retailer Primark??

I understand you English types go for yer Prymark, but any right minded person has got to recognise that it is clearly pronounced Preemark.

I distinctly remember their Crimbo campaign with the jingle 'Preemark, got a whole lot of things for Christmas, got a whole lot of things for Christmas Day... etc...'

 


 That was interesting.The way i see it like others have said is if you are a young kid and you are not Irish and had never at that point ever heard an Irish accent then how the hell are you supposed to know the "correct" pronounciation ? I didnt know the correct pronounciation until hearing the interview tonight.Of course i heard both pronounciations as well.I have always pronounced it Slayne or Slain and i am not about to change.I have taken into account the arguements here but i am not changing my way of saying slaine.

 Does this mean everytime i use an Irish word i have to consult a phrasebook to make sure i get the pronounciation right ? I havent got time for that. This isnt to say that i havent learnt something from this but it doesnt mean that i give up the right to pronounce a word the way i want to say it.    

 

 Because i have been pronouncing a word in the same way for about 20 years doesnt mean that i have an "emotional attachment " to it.How could i or anyone else have an "emotional attachment" to a way that  a word is pronounced when i was a "young un "? Is this possible ?

 



 I think i had better cut this short or i will get  carried away a bit.
 
 

  School English / Irish lesson over.

Well, I avoid it by not reading the bloody thing in the first place.  It's been up it's own arse for too long anyway.
However, I would say Slain, but feel a bit guilty about it, living in Norn Iron.

As a kid form the gaeltacht in 80s Ireland it's Sláine(Slawyeh) for me

Can I have cake (cáca) too please?

Wils will be along with some caca for you any time now...

I checked all those progs and the only thing it mentions is the right way to say anwwn.

Well, that was a caca-pooing waste of time.

---

There's also an interview with Ukko in the 1985 2000AD annual, with stuff like this:

X: Let's talk about you now.  How did you first meet Slaine?
U: He won me in a game of fidchell - 'wooden wisdom'.  A board game, rather like chess.  I'll probably write about it in a later episode.

why, without the fada it spells....

please ignore my previous request!

Anyway to continue this splendid thread I remember cringing when a girl at school pronounced "Bon Jovi" in full honours class French shrugged shoulders hand gesturing accent.

It's like the newsreaders who suddenly adopt an accent when it comes to saying words like "Gorbachev"

I confess I have used both pronunciations of Sláine. So , in summary, you say potato I say práta..when i feel like it.

Oh, and Primark is pronounced "Penneys"

Well, that's the thing.  

Of course the group of letters "Sláine" is pronounced  "Slawn-yeh" in current Irish (such as it is), my point is what does that have to do with the name of the guy in the comic strip?  Johnnystress correctly pronounces it thusly (and deserves more cáca milis than I do), I pronounce it otherwise (Jackeen-fashion, if you like), but other than his creator how could anyone seriously claim certain knowledge of how the name of a fictional character supposedly from a time before modern or even Old Irish even existed is pronounced?  Youe guess is as good as mine, and vice versa.

My point in citing the many, many versions of Irish pronounciation is to point out the fallacy of "a" pronounciation of anything, in any language over time and space.

Claym00re ("hi" by the way), I don't know your background, and obviously pronounciation is consistent within "a" gaeltacht,  but if you're honestly telling me that the Irish currently spoken in Gweedore and the Irish spoken in Ventry have indistinguishable pronounciation, you'll pardon me if I stifle a giggle (although they are mutually comprehensible).  

Equally, the Irish taught to my mother in the 50's and the Irish taught to me in the 70's are noticeably different, and Old Irish is virtually undecipherable to even the most fluent modern speaker.  Things change, through time and space, language most of all.  My given name is supposedly Hebrew in origin, but I doubt I'd recognise it if a speaker of the 6th BCE was to call it out.

Irish was on the brink of extinction in the 19th century, for historical reasons too numerous to mention, and a lot of very smart folk spent a good portion of their lives trying to preserve and revive it, and give it the trappings of a "modern" language (standard dictionnaries, grammars, written literature etc.) - this is the root of the Irish most of us were taught in schools, a synthetic work of considerable scholarship.  That's not to say Irish wasn't a language spoken by many, many people in the 19th century, but it was firmly on its way out in the face of overwhelming competition.  I'm not going to get into a game of Credential Top Trumps, but I do know whereof I speak

Getting back to some fun, the only "historical marker" we have for Sláine is the flooding of the Irish Sea and English Channel in "The Horned God", which must have happened no later than about 12,000BCE - anyone care to comment on "correct" pronounciation at that date?  Cite a source, maybe?

The only actual point I have to make in this fun debate is that you (or I) can pronounce the name of fictional characters in a silent medium any damn way you want, without any referenece to "correct" pronounciaton of any language.  

  It always sounds a bit naff and a bit irritating when someone who talks with an English accent for example suddenly saying a french word with a heavy French accent then goes straight back to talking in an english accent. If i use an American word or phrase [which i am guilty of sometimes] i dont suddenly launch into an accent that sounds like i am from Texas for example.It just would sound bloody silly quite honestly.

As a compromise is "Slawne " without the "Yeh" any good ?

Compromise? On this thread?!

But Tordelbach, haven't you been listening?  You're just plain wrong, man.  FACT!

   double post.

  I never knew  one particular boarder "was singlehandedly responsible for saddling the entire board with a code of conduct".I dont think that that statement is exactly correct somehow.If that statement is actually correct then i can relax knowing that i had absolutly nothing to do with its introduction whatsoever.

I think it was more a sort of icing on the cake thing, peterwolf.  Or more like the straw that broke the camel's back.  A twenty foot high, neon straw, but a straw all the same.  

Probably wiser to say that the Code of Conduct was brought about by the behaviour of the board as a metaphorical single entity (it taking at least two to tango, and all that).

I guess you missed the time when the link to the board was taken off the home page?  Or the time that a thread had to be deleted over fears of litigation?  The Code of Conduct was a long time coming.  

what IS a podcast anyway?

Podcast == fancy name for a sound file.

Wils will be along with some caca for you any time now...

Tsk! Don't be a nob, Noisy.


I'm all for the free choice of pronunciation (apart from the laughtastic "progue", obviously), but I'm actually curious on how Claym00re is going to *force* us to start pronouncing it his way, as constantly telling us we're all wrong certainly isn't going to work.

With cities being more cosmopolitan, in general, is the debate over correct pronunciation something of 'a country practise'?

Good point.
In Dublins "Fair City"* the Gaelic speaker would say Slawn-yeh but in Gweedore, in the north of the country,  the á vowel would sound more like the 'eeh' sound in "Enya"



*caution, joke may be ruined if this isn't aired in the uk

Come on guys, let's stay on topic here.

I'll not Brook side arguements on this thread.









Oh christ...

But back to Sláine

Do you remember the Famorian, Balor of the Evil Eye?

Traditionally he was portrayed with having one eye, or as we say in gaelic "Súil amhain"

Cyclopean people were known as "Na súile amahain" or in English...The Sullivans

Interesting.  I wonder if you can tell me - do the traditional pagan flora come up in ancient Irish folklore.  For example, Holly, oaks, and so on.









*Sweet mercy, grant me oblivion!*

I was wondering - is there a difference in pronunciation between West Coast speakers of the Irish language and the East enders?

I find the use of animal symoblisim very interesting in Celtic culture.

I'm particularly fond of the Falcon Crest.











I want to die...

Mills and Bisley were my Dreamteam on Sláine, if there was a nice hardback collection I'd buy it in a Heartbeat.

Moderator! Delete this thread!

and add something suitable to the code of conduct

Dudley, I've read that the softening of the differences in pronunciation largely came about due to the emergence of sporting events that were played both home & away.

Oh I agree- the detail that went into the strip- the costumes and weapons- was fantastic.
Especially the Archers.

You're right Funt.
That reminds me of the time a tourist asked me for directions. They were looking for a Tourist Informaton centre in the local town, and I was able to direct them to it.
'It's just there,' I told them, 'By Kerr Grove.'










I hate myself.

jesus wept

Sorry to go off topic, but I wonder if a fletcher exclusively uses Deadwood.

er

Anyway, back on topic!

Fabry amf MacCrea are nice guys. You know what I like? I like that JOhn comes along to conventions with his wife and child, and makes it a real Family Affair.








Can I be bannned now?

So Funt, was I wrong. Pretty sure sure I was spot on with that one, buit I can't be assed enough to dig out my progs back myself up or find out I'm horrible worng.

Johhny Stress, Is that true that Old One eye is translated as Sullivan in Gaelic.

Also the name of a old Australian soap opera set during World War two years.

Link: The Sulli-Fomorians

yeah- Sullivan comes from "Súil Amháin"- i was cracking a joke to continue the soap opera sub-context of this thread, we got that soap opera here too.

Can I be bannned now?

How about just being made a Prisoner? Where do you fancy being locked-up, Richmond? Hill on the Isle of White ok? Don't think there's an airport near, so it won't matter if you've got a fear of Flying. Doctors there would sort you out, anyway (you know how eager Young Doctors can be). The prison itself is  in a nice location, out in the Country. Practice being good and you might be up for release soon!







Phew!

I love you, Wils.

"Tsk! Don't be a nob, Noisy."

But... what else am I supposed to to do?
It's too late to retrain now!

I think you're just a casualty of his caustic wit, Noisy.  

Back to Irishisms: I've done some investigations and it turns out that in the old days, the Irish pronunciation of the letter "b" was different - very clipped, almost inaudible.  Dubliners were known for their fuller, more rounded way of saying that letter, though: a peculiar (to other Irish people) accent that led to Dublin Town being known as "whole B City"

In aimn Dé

You fool rac, everyone knows Knots Landing was better than Falcon Crest! :)
I live in Durham, and 20 miles up the road in Newcastle, folks pronounce some words so differently that my parents couldn't understand my neighbours when I lived there. You'll find similar situations pretty much everywhere I would think, it's just how language evolves.
One thing everyone in this story agreed with though is that its Slain, not Slawnie or whatever.
And it's still pie-zen, I'm not letting that one go :)

I'm with you on the pie-zen, satchmo.  I don't care what the writer says.  Paralizzen pizzen, my arse.  As the Greeks used to say.

Apparently, all the ancient greek opera singers used to use the paralyzing venom of the cone-snail on their testes in order to alter their natural voice ranges.  All of 'em - the tenors, the baritones, The Sopranos...





Oh, dear Grud, somebody make it stop!

Why, if Pat Mills was going to raid old Celtic legends, did he bother with Irish myths?  He could've looked at the ancient Welsh stories of Ardo the Young.  Or, if those were a bit bloody for his taste, Mills could've looked at that hero's father - the Elder Ardo.

Yeah make it stop! Then we can all stop talking such Colbys.

So, Ardo the Young was part of a Dynasty?

Using a drama series is diverting a bit too much, Funt. You don't want the original joke to sail off into the Sunset. Beach those ideas now, young man.

You know, as fascinating as this discussion is, we should really leave it alone lest we find ourselves talking about it for the rest of the days of our lives.

Bolt-01

Yeah, if we don't stop, this Christmas we'll all not be getting a visit from Santa. Barbara Windsor knows all about that.

You're all sick! You need therapy.

Although, as I have doubts about the efficacy of the Freudian practitioners, I'd suggest a trip to the Jung Doctors would be best.

I think in General, Hospital would do for most of us, though.

It's a dilemma Dale Winton has had experience of, I'm sure.

Hmm. If the acute accent indicates a long vowel (it's normal usage) then surely it would be Slaayne, rhyming with Waayne as in Wayne and Waynetta slob? Which is close enough to Slain TBH.

Anyone speaking the alternates out loud is just going to seem like they've had a stroke, TBH.

i think there's some interesting parallels to be drawn between the history Irish language and the Occitan langauge of south-west France.  Central to its division from northern "french" was the word for "Yes", the really important distniction being the use of the "Ã?c".


(I miss The Sullivans.  Some episodes had yer actual  jungle fighting, something you never see on Home and Away. )

progue progue progue progue progue progue

Who ever said it was short for "programme" anyway?

"Prog" (which, as everyone sensible knows, rhymes with "dog") is a suitably futurey and far-out sci-fi term in its own right.  

And anyone who says different smells of wee.  Wils told me so.  Blame him.  (It's fashionable)

Doesn't it say 'programme 1' on the front cover of prog 1?

That's 'prog' like 'dog', by the way.

Of course, it should have been "program" instead of "programme".

right at the top...

Mack One? Mash One?

PS


In Irish 'Mac' means 'Son' so

yasdda yadda yadda

blah blah

Prog 1, you say?  I have an array of said:

'Oc Ochon'

Itâ??s a comic, Pronounce it how you like, I still call the Cythrons, Corinthians (donâ??t ask)

Anyone who is bored by this post donâ??t read on!

Tordelback posted the following
'I'd then ask them to compare those multitudinious modern "living" pronounciations to the "received" Irish pronounciation largely invented from scratch during the late 19th century/ early 20th century in an effort to revive a tongue on the verge of extinction, then compare it to the likely Old Irish pronounciation, which no-one knows for sure because it's effectively a dead language derived from written sources (transposed from older oral sources)'
Imp Afraid I have to take issue with this, Irish as a language is a living language, not many people speaking it but still no need to 'Transport' word from old literature. Modern Gaelic has been around since the 16th century and anyone reading Irish from this period now would be able to understand it.
The Irish taught in school since schools started is much the same.
What you may be referring to Tordleback is the standardization of Dialects in the 1950, when the main dialects of Irish in Ireland were standardised into one universal Irish.

The most popular version of a work was chosen to be the standard. EG In Ulster and Connaught, â??Gasurâ?? is the Irish for a young boy, the Munster Irish is â??Gasun,â?? and â??Gasurâ?? was chosen to be the standard for school curriculum.

Rant over

David

David, I'm wasn't (having fun) arguing that Irish isn't a living language, 'course it is...  (BEWARE: boring half-informed waffle follows).

What i was trying to do was point out that Old Irish (the written form of the later 1st Millennium AD) is a quite different beast to modern Irish, and only survived in a written form.  I'd be pretty impressed if the average modern speaker could make even as much of Old Irish as the average English speaker could make of Middle English (I certainly can't without Thurneyson by my side, but then my Irish is piss-poor) - many words and structures would be famliar, but the differences are many and tricksy.  It managed to resist sound scholarly translation until the later 19th century.  

My point here was to pour good-natured scorn on the idea that someone could claim that "Sláine" (a character from 12,000BC if the Drune's flooding of the Irish Sea is the same event as the post-Glacial innundation of that area) has "a" correct pronounciation because it's "Irish", when that language was a noticeably different entity a mere 1,000 years ago.  (Also note that Sláine the strip isn't actually written in Irish, it's English with some modern Irish loan words.)

Once we get to the 16th century and Keating, we're into Modern Irish, and  I'm not really arguing with you -  everything should be mutually comprehensible, but the dialects of the various galetachts are sufficently notable to suggest that pronounciation can be quite different - and the point I was making there was that languages change over time and space.

In talking about 19th/20th century changes, I suppose I was thinking mainly of O'Donovan's work in standardising placenames in the 1840's, the Gaelic Revival boys of the turn of the century hauling Irish literature into the light, Dinneen's dictionary of the 20's, and yeah, of Daltún's "Official"  spelling and grammar revision of the '40's (which was a big change), pushed into schools in the 50's and 60's.  My mother, in school in the late 40's prior to An Caighdéan's full-scale arrival, was horribly confused by our 70's textbooks, and was bugger-all use to me with my homework, hence my bitterness!

Quoting myself late last year......

QuoteI believe that the ONLY pronouciation was shown in the first episode (Prog 493) of the 'Spoils of Annwn'(Pronounced Anoon)

I recall from the panel with boat in it and the words 'Slawnyeh' written somewhere on the page.

Not that I was bothered enough to dig out my collection of Slaine Quality Comics.
It was one of the first of Slaine comics I ever brought.

Right now, I looking at that very page featured in the latest Slaine graphic novel wondering why a fuss was made about this in the first place.  

I even managed to dig out my stash of Quality's only to realise I was wrong about any caption on that page was attempting to show correct pronouciation of Slaine.

It's just got ........

//]*ANNWN%20(%20pronouced%20'Anoon'):%20THE%20UNDERWORLD.

Oh well, I was terribly wrong.

Though, I do remember this was written somewhere.

Perhaps I should look under 'Sky-Chariots'

For a second there I thought Glenn Fabry is giving a another interveiw again.

Why did I have to read this thread? Why? That's 40 minutes I'll never get back.

Quote from: "JayzusB.Christ"Why did I have to read this thread? Why? That's 40 minutes I'll never get back.

that's  also my Diagnosis, Murder it's been on my poor eyes!



I'm so sorry!