2000 AD Online Forum

General Chat => Film & TV => : the shutdown man 26 November, 2007, 03:20:02 PM

: Blade Runner: Final Cut
: the shutdown man 26 November, 2007, 03:20:02 PM
I just realised today that this is out on DVD next Monday, and now I'm all excited. :) The Ultimate Edition 5-disc set is a hell of a lot cheaper than I expected (30 euro on cdwow) so the only question remaining is: do I but it myself, or "suggest" it as a Christmas present?

But they're not showing the Final Cut in cinemas in Ireland dammit! I wanted to see it on the big screen....
: Extreme 26: Balls of STEEL!
: Bolt-01 26 November, 2007, 03:57:02 PM
Woo, and indeed Hoo!

MEAN ARENA!

Going to sit and read this with a brew in a bit- Cheers Tharg.

Bolt-01
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut...
: dweezil2 26 November, 2007, 04:30:29 PM
Can you wait for Christmas? I know I can't!
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut......
: Skeabost 26 November, 2007, 05:47:17 PM
Without getting too nerdy, what's the difference between Final and Director's Cuts? I saw the new version a couple of days ago, and it looks stunning. Certainly it's benefited from a clean up of the print and the soundtrack etc, but (even allowing it's been a while since I last saw it) I couldn't detect much new content. Anyhow, it's a good excuse to catch it on the big screen.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut.........
: the shutdown man 26 November, 2007, 08:08:56 PM
I couldn't wait, I've pre-ordered the 5-disc set (after doing some subtle digging to find out if it was already on anyone's list for me)

As for the differences, I haven't seen the Final Cut yet, but I read that apart from cleaning up the print, Scott made a few little differences, like putting some of the violence back in, and a few little CGI tweaks, like making the difference between Zhora and her male stunt double much less obvious. It wasn't really about adding new scenes.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut...
: CreamTrumpet 27 November, 2007, 04:19:35 PM
I pre-ordered the 5 Disc edition. It looks like it may be one of the finest special edition DVD's ever released. Can't wait!

If you're a fan of the movie, I'd highly recommend the book 'Future Noir' by Paul Sammon. I have the original edition of the book - which is fantastic - but there's a new edition coming out to coincide with the re-release of the movie which contains new interviews with the cast and crew, comprehensive analysis of the alterations made to the film, and details about the restoration process.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut......
: davidbishop 27 November, 2007, 04:42:26 PM
IIRC, they did a brief reshoot with Joanna 'Zora' Cassidy to eliminate the bloke in a bad wig stunt double. By utter coincidence, Joanna Cassidy appeared on the episode of Heroes screened across the Atlantic last night [2.10].

davidbishop, geek to the beat
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut......
: dweezil2 27 November, 2007, 06:48:49 PM
Let me second that recommendation. The books got everything you'd ever need to know about the making of the movie and all the various versions that are in existence.
Also to be recommended, for all lovers of Philip K. Is "Counterfeit Worlds-Philip K. Dick On Film", which lists the many film adaptations of his work and many that have yet to make it to the screen.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut.........
: Proudhuff 29 November, 2007, 12:10:03 PM
Saw this on the big screen at the Cameo Edinburgh it was all great: sound, vision and an  apreciative audience.
I still have my ticket stub from the orginal Premiere, saddo that I am.

That book looks good onto my wish list it goes.

Huff  
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: dweezil2 30 November, 2007, 08:12:39 PM
Just found this!
It looks essential too.



Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut...
: Floyd-the-k 30 November, 2007, 08:24:15 PM
what's better about the Final Cut? I thought the original release was pretty much perfect. Mind you, I haven't seen it since it came out.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut......
: dweezil2 30 November, 2007, 08:29:10 PM
No rubbish voice over, no inappropriate happy ending(cobbled together from out-takes of Kubrick's The Shining) and judging by what I've read ont tinternet, a nice digital claen up job from Sott's people and a few added scenes.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut.........
: dweezil2 30 November, 2007, 08:33:15 PM
I'll rephrase that:


No rubbish voice over, no inappropriate happy ending(cobbled together from out-takes of Kubrick's The Shining) and judging by what I've read ont tinternet, a nice digital clean up job from Scott's people and a few added scenes.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: Floyd-the-k 01 December, 2007, 10:24:33 AM
Well I may check it out sometime, but I didn't mind the voiceover at all - thought it suited the character
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: JOE SOAP 01 December, 2007, 11:34:19 AM
The voice over beacme part of the script after Ridley took on the project. It was his idea and he asked for it to be written into the script like a 50's detective movie. The drafts dated after his arrival bear this out. The writer didn't want any V.O. nor even Ford.

It's a film that nere really works but looks great anyway.

Scripts preceding Scott's involvement don't have V.O.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: Wils 01 December, 2007, 11:39:17 AM
That differs quite a bit from what I read about it, which is that the voiceover and bolted-on footage from The Shining were added after test screenings, after the thickos couldn't understand what was going on through the whole film and were upset that it didn't have a Disneyesque ending.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut.........
: MIKE COLLINS 01 December, 2007, 01:57:30 PM
That was Joanna Cassidy! I missed that-- the young version was well cast, wasn't she?

Oh, and the Briefcase edition (Own Deckard's briefcase!) is available on Amazon.com for $60 including postage, and that's less than £30 (as I know to my cost when cashing US checks lately...
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: JOE SOAP 01 December, 2007, 03:40:09 PM
***That differs quite a bit from what I read about it, which is that the voiceover and bolted-on footage from The Shining were added after test screenings,***

No that's not true, if you read Paul Sammon's Blade Runner book you will see that Ridley actually contradicts himself a lot about the details of scripts and who's idea it was to have VO's. Many on the production team including the producer's say it was Scott's idea to have VO.

The test screenings without VO were tried first when they realised the VO sounded shit but because the shooting script was written with VO a lot of info the audience needed to understand the film was missing, so they had to reinstate it. If he had shot it with the intention of no VO, more charater exposition scenes would have been shot, als the original scripts. They weren't and you can still see the points in the film where the VO is intended to go, hence Ridley's recent slight re-edit of certain scenes using alternate takes etc.

It's a fact that if you read the early script drafts dated before filming started that there is voice over. The first drafts by Hampton Fancher before Scott's involvement don's contain any VO's. The scripts are online so it's easily verifiable.

Scott always said he wanted the film to be reminiscent of a 50's film noir and VO's were a feature of such films, as well as the dark lighting.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: Rob Spalding 01 December, 2007, 06:51:09 PM
Just got an email from amazon saying my copy has shipped!

Might even be here on Monday if I'm lucky
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: dweezil2 01 December, 2007, 08:17:00 PM
None of these points alter the fact that the voice over is completely redundant-something both Harrison Ford and Ridley Scott have declared since the films release.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: paulvonscott 01 December, 2007, 10:21:34 PM
But was the voicover only redundant once you'd seen the film once with the VO and could then understand it without it?

I'm a bit confused about the whole thing, I have no idea which version is best.  I have a friend who much prefers the original cut.

No doubt I'll watch the new one and my opinion will be even more vague.  Maybe the 'Injury Time' cut may help...

Garamin, please report back... and Dweezil, I may have to get that CD set.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: the shutdown man 02 December, 2007, 12:56:05 AM
"Just got an email from amazon saying my copy has shipped!"

Me too (from play.com, but the point's the same). And I saw it on sale in HMV today as well. A bit odd since the big deal was that it was supposed to be released on the 3rd, but I'm not complaining.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: JOE SOAP 02 December, 2007, 01:02:43 AM
***But was the voicover only redundant once you'd seen the film once with the VO and could then understand it without it?

I'm a bit confused about the whole thing, I have no idea which version is best. I have a friend who much prefers the original cut. ***


I think it's a flawed film either way. It's an ok mood piece that looks great at best. There are ideas behind the deco furniture and monolithic buildings but it's more about the aesthetic than the subtext and who populates the film's landscape.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: Jim_Campbell 02 December, 2007, 10:13:06 AM
"There are ideas behind the deco furniture and monolithic buildings but it's more about the aesthetic than the subtext and who populates the film's landscape."

For you, perhaps, and that's entirely valid. However, to simply dismiss the themes of mortality and free will is - IMO - to do the film a disservice, as it is to sell short the towering performance of Rutger Hauer.

I'm not looking for an argument, I just wanted to put forward an alternative view on what can be found in the film.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: The Adventurer 02 December, 2007, 10:29:26 AM
I too think the flims stands best on it's artistic merits. It's a very good looking film with a very iconic setting.

The story though is a mixed bag. First off, everyone calls it cyberpunk when it's not really cyberpunk at all, just a dystpoian future with clone tech. Second, it's whole "mortality play" with what it means to be "alive" is just a really dumbed down brand of Asimov, just replace robots with clone replicates. Oh its pace is a bit plodding.

So yeah, great design, some memorable quotes and moments, and definitly worth buying. But it's not "The Greatest Sci-Fi Masterpiece Ever", though it does score points for being one of the few sci-fi flicks that takes itself dead serious on cerebral topics. Instead of devolving into soap opera.


And Deckard is not a Replicate!
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: Keef Monkey 02 December, 2007, 10:43:57 AM
"And I saw it on sale in HMV today as well"

We're not supposed to sell it until Monday but it was delivered on Friday, so if your HMV have it on the shelf then someone's put it on the shelf without realizing it's a new release.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: satchmo 02 December, 2007, 12:26:08 PM
I agree that it isn't really cyberpunk, but a lot of the imagery people would associate with cyberpunk came from Blade Runner.
I would say Repo Man had the attitude, Blade Runner had the backstreet eyeball shops :)
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: philt 02 December, 2007, 12:35:54 PM
Just ordered the soundtrack (and the Forbidden Planet one as well). Can't wait
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: JOE SOAP 02 December, 2007, 01:46:37 PM
***For you, perhaps, and that's entirely valid. However, to simply dismiss the themes of mortality and free will is - IMO - to do the film a disservice, as it is to sell short the towering performance of Rutger Hauer. ***

Oh yes, these things are there but they're so weakly dramatised and paced they don't amount to much. The performances are an exception, it's the material they have to deal with that merely plods without real incident and tries to recover with some philosophical musings.

A bunch of themes doesn't make a film, meaningful incident does.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: dweezil2 02 December, 2007, 07:03:36 PM
"A bunch of themes doesn't make a film, meaningful incident does".


Well, I'd cosider a character who thought he was human at the start of the movie, questioning his humanity by the end a pretty significant incident-but maybe that's just me.
And that's without taking in to account how influential the film has been visually and stylisicly.
But, opinions, blah de blah.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: JOE SOAP 02 December, 2007, 08:16:37 PM
***Well, I'd cosider a character who thought he was human at the start of the movie, questioning his humanity by the end a pretty significant incident-but maybe that's just me.***

If your talking about Harrison Ford's character, I don't think that really comes through enough in the film. A lot of people think that way because so much has been written about the film and said by Scott himself and others, but I think if people now saw the film cold, as in the original release, they may not think the same.

Judging by the reaction of most reviewers -mainstream and respected genre types- at the time of the film's original release, it was seen as quite an empty, flat film, dramatically. As is the case with many but not all cult films, they don't need to be particularly good to garner a dedicated audience, an audience who will read more and more things into that are not dramatised there in the first place but have grown around the culture of the film.

If Blade Runner looked like a cheap budget film, it wouldn't have the same status it has today. It lives on mostly because of the unique work Doug Trumbull and his team did at the time.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: Peter Wolf 02 December, 2007, 11:03:38 PM

I have probably seen this film half a dozen times now including the directors cut.I think the reason that this film stands up so well today is down to Ridley Scotts inspired set building and cinematography.This film just has so much atmosphere.

Aspects of the film have dated mostly the Vangelis soundtrack but just looking at the cityscapes at night ,the buildings etc its astonishing how good it still looks particularly if you consider it came out in 82.

With the cityscapes you dont imagine a set piece that has been built but rather something that is real.Its a masterpiece in film making and atmosphere.

: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: Proudhuff 04 December, 2007, 02:53:33 PM

The latest version is great, true it doesn't great big Basil Expo speaches or actions, it lets one make up your own mind, even if your wrong ;p

On a different note I know somebody who will be doing the 10 year passport interviews, and he  can't kept his face striaght when he has to ask 'tell me about your mother?'.

Tyrell Huff
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: Jim_Campbell 04 December, 2007, 08:10:51 PM
"Judging by the reaction of most reviewers -mainstream and respected genre types- at the time of the film's original release, it was seen as quite an empty, flat film, dramatically."

Not by me. The film has substantial flaws, and the question of whether those flaws outweigh what is admirable in the films is inevitably a matter of personal taste.

I'm not going to suggest that anyone's opinion is less valid because they feel otherwise ... it's just that I'm prepared to sit through films where very little "happens" in the conventional sense if there is stuff going on that engages me in other ways.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: philt 04 December, 2007, 10:16:14 PM
+++Aspects of the film have dated mostly the Vangelis soundtrack+++

Just keep taking the tablets. I'm sure you'll be alright. The only thing that hasn't dated is the soundtrack which is as fresh and innovative (not to mention hugely influential) as it was when the movie was released
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: JOE SOAP 04 December, 2007, 10:53:02 PM
That soundtrack still sounds fresh and is  seriously layered.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: JOE SOAP 04 December, 2007, 10:59:35 PM
***I'm not going to suggest that anyone's opinion is less valid because they feel otherwise ... it's just that I'm prepared to sit through films where very little "happens" in the conventional sense if there is stuff going on that engages me in other ways. ***


Watch a Takeshi Kitano film or an Ozu, even Days of Heaven to see how doing very little to nothing on screen, in the conventional sense, can mean so much more.
Ridley Scott has never been as advanced as those guys, that's why he went on to continually make quite ordinary blockbuster films now like Gladiator and American Gangster. Maybe he considers it a progression but he should have pushed the other way in his films.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: CreamTrumpet 05 December, 2007, 04:54:43 PM
Sure, Scott has never been an arthouse darling like Kitano or Malick, but why should he apologise for being a mainstream filmmaker?
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: JOE SOAP 05 December, 2007, 05:09:59 PM
Sure, Scott has never been an arthouse darling like Kitano or Malick, but why should he apologise for being a mainstream filmmaker?


If you read what I was referring to in response to the other post, you'll see that I was referring to the method of how the story and action in Bladerunner is told and how Scott was unable to handle this form of film-making then, hence his reverting more to mainstream film-making. Scott having to apologise for being mainstream has nothing to do with it and I never said he should.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: Jim_Campbell 05 December, 2007, 08:52:52 PM
"Maybe he considers it a progression but he should have pushed the other way in his films."

Despite my repeated attempts to be inclusive of a range of views on this particular film, and my repeated statements that I'm not actually looking for a fight on this, you seem determined to come off like an argumentative twat on this subject.

I'm not interested in changing your mind, proving my point or otherwise scoring internet debate points.

I like the film better than you do. That's fine. I consider it  a flawed but worthwhile piece, but you find the flaws sufficient to outweigh the good. Again, fine.

I'm done with this discussion.

Jim
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: JOE SOAP 05 December, 2007, 09:55:59 PM
Since when is a few replies on a discussion forum a fight, seems tame to me. No bad language, nuffin'. If you post, I reply. Logic.

If you don't want in on the discussion, don't reply. No one's forcing you. I thought fora were for discussions in the first place, we're obviously not singing from the same hymn sheet.

***I'm done with this discussion. ***

I'll be expecting a reply to this.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut..........
: Peter Wolf 05 December, 2007, 10:50:54 PM

Ridley Scott has an eye for cinematography that no one else has in film making. I have seen every ridley Scott film there is to see.


Its difficult to explain exactly what i mean but he understands how to choose or create a perfect backdrop to a scene in a film. Also how to use lighting in a film that adds to the atmosphere.


I must go and see American Gangster.


He adds a certain kind of artistry to making a film and creating visuals that other directors cant do.


Even a film like GI Jane is enjoyable to watch from a visual point of view for this reason.


: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut
: Colin YNWA 29 September, 2019, 07:52:08 AM
Well given my track record of late I figured I'd dig this one up as well. Started (and ended) before I even joined the forum!

Stumbled across a two disc Final Cut version of Blade Runner in the supermarket for £5 and since I'd not seen the film for .... what, must be 20 years I treated myself.

Glad I did, was always a favourite of mine and can't quite see a reason why I've not seen it for so long. This was the first time I've seen it without the voice over too and while its hard to tell how that would work on intitial watch, it works fine on re-watch, though does take away from the Noir feel a little.... only a very little mind as has been stated here a few times the movie just drips atmosphere. I was impressed how even though its been a long time since I've seen it, almost the entire movie is implanted in my noggin. Which given my memory surprises me. Though have no idea which where tweaked bit and which weren't I guess. That probably no surprise as its visually stunning, emotionally compelling and while it struck me that not many 'events' seem to happen its covers a lot of ground at the same time.

Glad the car driving away bit has gone mind, that always felt very weird and tacked on - didn't know it was footgae left over from 'The Shining' - while I've always loved this movie I've never engaged in the extensive stuff written about it. Mind I now have a nice long documentary to dig into now on the second disc so suspect I'll learn at lot there.

There's lots of talk here about it being a flawed but worthwhile piece and I'm not too sure I see too many flaws if I'm honest. Was talking about the movie by chance in work not too long ago and have to admit a couple of the younger folks (well those between early twenties and mid thirties when did they get to be the younger folk grrr) didn't like it at all??? What's all that about I find it an objectively good movie regardless of your subjective view on that is... mind I'm no expert on such things.

Glad I've revisited, must make sure its not so long next time. I'm now curious about the sequel which I've actively not seen to this point. I figure it must definitively answer whether Decker is a Replicant or not and not sure I need to know. For me as much is as the film can be said to be about identity and what makes us 'human' its as much about the doubts we all have about our place in the world and the fear that mortality brings with it. To know is Decker is or isn't a Replicant removes that point for me?Or am I missing the point here, are we meant to have a definative answer with this new (to me) cut.

Anyway hear good things about the sequel though so tempted.... hmmm....
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut
: broodblik 29 September, 2019, 09:04:09 AM
I enjoyed the Final Cut and the original. For me the sequel was a great movie as well
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut
: Apestrife 29 September, 2019, 07:24:03 PM
I think Blade Runner 2049 is a fantastic film. Regardless which cut of Blade Runner I watch it after, or as a stand alone. It's a really clever film that way.

Regarding Deckard in BR2049. Maybe you're in for a surprise ;)
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut
: Jim_Campbell 29 September, 2019, 07:28:59 PM
I can’t think of a film I wanted to like more than Blade Runner 2049… and didn’t. Empty, soulless and dull. There’s a thread of vicious misogyny running through it (which, TBH, doesn’t separate it from the original movie) that I found utterly repellent.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut
: JayzusB.Christ 29 September, 2019, 10:59:20 PM
I wasn't mad on it either.  I liked some of the extra bits of worldbuilding but the storyline wasn't nearly as sharp and thoughtful as the first one. 
Where was the misogyny in it? Not doubting you at all, I just don't remember.  It was fairly plain to see in the first one.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut
: Jim_Campbell 29 September, 2019, 11:32:40 PM
Where was the misogyny in it? Not doubting you at all, I just don't remember.  It was fairly plain to see in the first one.

I thought Wallace giving a speech on how he couldn’t make replicants fast enough and then disembowelling a naked female replicant was pretty unpleasant. The introduction and almost immediate dispatch of the replacement Rachel for having the wrong colour eyes. Just all the way through, women seemed both sexualised and disposable. I didn’t like it at all.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut
: Funt Solo 30 September, 2019, 12:45:23 AM
Women being overtly sexualized could (in both movies) be taken as a reflection of society: but there's not a balance in the depiction of women in the second movie.

 - Joi is a holographic companion. Owned by a man. Her purpose is to please him.
 - Luv is a replicant. Owned by a man. Her purpose is to please him.
 - Lieutenant Joshi is a police officer (stabbed with a knife on the orders of a man).
 - Mariette is a replicant prostitute (and secret agent).
 - Ana Stelline is a doctor, effectively imprisoned and enslaved.
 - Freysa is a replicant leader of a resistance group. She is the only woman with agency.
 - Rachael is a replicant who is executed by the man who owns her.
 - [Unnamed] is a female replicant who is executed by being stabbed with a knife by the man who owns her.

I too was disturbed at the inclusion of Niander Wallace's gratuitous murder of a naked female replicant. There's just no need for it - it's not cost effective, clearly, so he's just doing it for fun - which it would only be if you were an utter sociopath. Mind you, he's also a boring villain: pontificating about his motivations in a way that shouts "you're watching a movie". Tyrell didn't need to do that in the first movie. And he didn't need to be young. And he didn't need to do snuff reels in order for us to get that he was lacking morals. If failed breeding stock replicants were recycled or snuffed out mechanically, that would demonstrate clearly Niander's inhumanity: no need for the cold-blooded, bladed, murder.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut
: JayzusB.Christ 30 September, 2019, 12:55:52 AM
Where was the misogyny in it? Not doubting you at all, I just don't remember.  It was fairly plain to see in the first one.

I thought Wallace giving a speech on how he couldn’t make replicants fast enough and then disembowelling a naked female replicant was pretty unpleasant. The introduction and almost immediate dispatch of the replacement Rachel for having the wrong colour eyes. Just all the way through, women seemed both sexualised and disposable. I didn’t like it at all.

Fair enough.  I don't really remember the disembowelling part, though I doubt I'll be giving it another watch for a long time.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut
: karlos 30 September, 2019, 02:04:52 PM
I'm ashamed to say, it never occurred to me (although I always hated the "love scene" in BR).

Bloody hell.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut
: TordelBack 30 September, 2019, 02:34:22 PM
The misogyny leaps out in BR, making Deckard into a truly unlikeable protagonist if he wasnt already, but i felt the even more brutal examples in BR2049 were at least making an explicit point about commodification, dehumanisation and disposability.

The problem with this and the film as a whole, as I see it, is that Leto's Wallace is a really poorly drawn and implausible character, and a such his actions just seem pointless. Other than that, I thought it was a solid piece of work.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut
: IndigoPrime 30 September, 2019, 02:54:03 PM
I remember having conversations about this with my wife. The test, really, is whether a production is sexist or misogynistic, or whether the reality depicted is – and also whether that’s ‘necessary’. To take an extreme example, Handmaid’s tale of course requires its society to be deeply misogynistic. At the other end of the scale, one of the most popular long-tail blog posts I ever wrote (http://reverttosaved.com/2012/11/17/skyfall-james-bonds-return-to-male-gaze-misogyny/) looked into Skyfall’s misogyny. My wife was practically shaking with rage as we left that film – and I didn’t feel any better about it myself. The only conclusion I could draw was not the excuse given by many – that Bond was a misogynistic/relic – but that the entire film was from a structural standpoint.

Blade Runner is tougher. Deckard is awful. The scene with Rachel is deeply uncomfortable viewing. My take has been, though, that it works within the prism of the tale/world itself, and that the film isn’t misogynistic, even if that future society clearly has its problems. The sequel doesn’t get the same pass. My wife’s main comment about that film was that it was “really sad”. But we did also talk about the depiction of women, and how basically everyone either had no agency, or was a prop to be used my men and/or male replicants. Although in some ways arguably a line drawn from its predecessor, the newer film doesn’t have the ‘benefit’ of being filmed in a different era, and I felt should have done better in this area. There were – as already discussed here – unnecessary scenes. But then I also suppose people too often forget that we still remain rooted in an era of media where men and the male gaze utterly dominate – and that’s even more true of science fiction and the like.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut
: wedgeski 30 September, 2019, 03:06:14 PM
I agree on many levels. The '80's were replete with scenes of women turning away from a man, only to be rudely grabbed, swung back around, and kissed, as if an entire permissive conversation had happened telepathically (not least in Next Generation Trek). The scene with Rachel is awful in the same vein.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut
: Keef Monkey 30 September, 2019, 03:23:04 PM
But we did also talk about the depiction of women, and how basically everyone either had no agency, or was a prop to be used my men and/or male replicants. Although in some ways arguably a line drawn from its predecessor, the newer film doesn’t have the ‘benefit’ of being filmed in a different era, and I felt should have done better in this area. There were – as already discussed here – unnecessary scenes. But then I also suppose people too often forget that we still remain rooted in an era of media where men and the male gaze utterly dominate – and that’s even more true of science fiction and the like.

I had a similar conversation with my wife too, because I was curious how she felt about that particular Leto scene (I hadn't had a problem with it but could see why someone might). She was totally fine with it and thought it fit the world of the film, and that the treatment of women in general reflected the attitudes and problems that women have to deal with in present day, but extrapolated into the future and made even more harsh by the society that it's set in I guess. Leto's callousness didn't bother her, because if women are seen by a lot of men even now as worthless for anything other than having and raising children, then surely in that world manufactured women made for that purpose would be seen as entirely disposable if they couldn't do it.

I still totally get why it would be problematic (it does shock me every time I watch the film) but we thought its inclusion was justified.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut
: TordelBack 30 September, 2019, 03:51:17 PM
She was totally fine with it and thought it fit the world of the film, and that the treatment of women in general reflected the attitudes and problems that women have to deal with in present day, but extrapolated into the future and made even more harsh by the society that it's set in I guess.

...

I still totally get why it would be problematic (it does shock me every time I watch the film) but we thought its inclusion was justified.

Definitely this for me too.  I don't dispute that it (and much else in there) is readily viewable as just more of the same, but I think it just came in the right side of the line for me.  Just thoughtful enough to be justifiable.

Joi, for one example, while obviously a deeply sexualised character, within the story literally commodified, controlled and discarded by her 'lover' and on a wider level by society, but equally deliberately presented by the filmmakers as titillation for a male audience, was for me one of the most memorable and believable characters in recent SF, asking very pointed questions about commercialised sexuality, power imbalance in relationships and the nature of post-human humanity.

I think if Wallace had had the plausibility of Tyrell, instead of being some kind of incomprehensibly inhuman psychopath (which really is more of the same), my position would be easier to argue.

: Indigo Prime
At the other end of the scale, one of the most popular long-tail blog posts I ever wrote looked into Skyfall’s misogyny. My wife was practically shaking with rage as we left that film – and I didn’t feel any better about it myself. The only conclusion I could draw was not the excuse given by many – that Bond was a misogynistic/relic – but that the entire film was from a structural standpoint.

On this we are in total agreement. I can barely describe how much I dislike that film. It's atrocious.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut
: Colin YNWA 30 September, 2019, 07:53:59 PM
Can't comment on the new stuff but the Blade Runner scene with Decker and Rachel is very uncomfortable, but I think for good reason.

He's dealing with feeling towards someone inhuman and in doing so acts inhuman himself. I read it as his struggle to deal with his feelings for Rachel and I assume therefore starting to question his own humanity. So in fear he is brutal towards Rachel, ironically becoming what we as viewers see as inhuman (alas as we learn increasingly these days, all too human) so makes sense from a character point of view and a storytelling perspective.

Its hard viewing but needs to be.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut
: Proudhuff 01 October, 2019, 04:35:39 PM
She was totally fine with it and thought it fit the world of the film, and that the treatment of women in general reflected the attitudes and problems that women have to deal with in present day, but extrapolated into the future and made even more harsh by the society that it's set in I guess.

...

I still totally get why it would be problematic (it does shock me every time I watch the film) but we thought its inclusion was justified.

Definitely this for me too.  I don't dispute that it (and much else in there) is readily viewable as just more of the same, but I think it just came in the right side of the line for me.  Just thoughtful enough to be justifiable.

Joi, for one example, while obviously a deeply sexualised character, within the story literally commodified, controlled and discarded by her 'lover' and on a wider level by society, but equally deliberately presented by the filmmakers as titillation for a male audience, was for me one of the most memorable and believable characters in recent SF, asking very pointed questions about commercialised sexuality, power imbalance in relationships and the nature of post-human humanity.

I think if Wallace had had the plausibility of Tyrell, instead of being some kind of incomprehensibly inhuman psychopath (which really is more of the same), my position would be easier to argue.

: Indigo Prime
At the other end of the scale, one of the most popular long-tail blog posts I ever wrote looked into Skyfall’s misogyny. My wife was practically shaking with rage as we left that film – and I didn’t feel any better about it myself. The only conclusion I could draw was not the excuse given by many – that Bond was a misogynistic/relic – but that the entire film was from a structural standpoint.

On this we are in total agreement. I can barely describe how much I dislike that film. It's atrocious.


This^^^ from me too, Ridley Scott's politics have always grated with me, and his objectification of wimmin is particularly nasty.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut
: Colin YNWA 23 July, 2020, 10:24:26 PM
So Blade Runner 2049 popped up on Amazon so I've watched it at last and... well... I'd like to watch it again and I'm assuming it can't be as vapid as it seemed (I have watched it in three sittings).

While the original brilliantly gave the illusion of being spacious and giving everything time and space it actually moves at a reasonable pace. 2049 seemed to do the complete opposite trying to seem meaningful and deep by being slow and pondering, as if by giving more time and space to an empty concept would somehow provide it substance?

I mean Wallace is the prime example. The character somehow manages to be the worst mustache twirling cliche, while at the same time serving almost no purpose other than the create conflicit for barely discernable reasons being made to seem fascinating and intriguing by some terrible dialogue...

... yet I want to watch it again as I assume its me not giving it create and for some reason i think I'll find value in a second watch... but really it would have a lot of ground to recover!
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut
: wedgeski 24 July, 2020, 09:21:09 AM
"vapid"..? I have heard it criticised in many ways, but never like that. Admittedly, I found it hard going at the cinema (partly because the audio was too loud and the soundtrack is adept at finding harmonics in my brain pan), but since adding it to my shelf I've watched it repeatedly. It certainly does reward further viewing.
: Re: Blade Runner: Final Cut
: Colin YNWA 24 July, 2020, 09:59:45 AM
"vapid"..? I have heard it criticised in many ways, but never like that. Admittedly, I found it hard going at the cinema (partly because the audio was too loud and the soundtrack is adept at finding harmonics in my brain pan), but since adding it to my shelf I've watched it repeatedly. It certainly does reward further viewing.

I do like the word!

Yeah I do worry (well that might be over stating it) about the fractured way in which I've watched it) might be a factor in this and that plays into my desire to watch it again as I suspect I am being unfair. But it did seem, viewed as I have - the very definition of style over substance and that style was developed by the original!