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2000 AD => News => : James Stacey 29 May, 2013, 12:02:17 PM

: The Complete Zenith
: James Stacey 29 May, 2013, 12:02:17 PM
Wow. It truly is the end of days. Fantastic to see it back in print finally

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/969580_10151416445681366_1193091064_n.jpg)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 29 May, 2013, 12:03:47 PM
I love you, Tharg X
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 29 May, 2013, 12:03:58 PM


There'll be a rush to get those over-priced Titan trades on ebay before anyone notices. Great news though.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ming 29 May, 2013, 12:05:25 PM
First thing I did was make sure it wasn't the beginning of April...  :lol:


FANTASTIC news.

 :thumbsup:

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: James Stacey 29 May, 2013, 12:05:43 PM
Just seen the price that's been set for it. Those overpriced Titan trades may still be cheaper  :o
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Enigmatic Dr X 29 May, 2013, 12:05:57 PM


There'll be a rush to get those over-priced Titan trades on ebay before anyone notices. Great news though.

Heh. I thought this was happening a year ago and flogged mine for £130. Then I was hacked off that it didn't happen. Now, I am happy.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: radiator 29 May, 2013, 12:07:01 PM
YES!!!!!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 29 May, 2013, 12:07:17 PM

Seems to be a one-off reprint deal of only 1000 copies:

Never collected in its entirety before, this is a unique opportunity to own the whole of Morrison’s first superhero series in a never-to-be-repeated format.


http://www.2000adonline.com/news/29-05-2013/zenith_to_be_reprinted/
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: radiator 29 May, 2013, 12:09:28 PM
Hmmm. Interesting. Hope I manage to get a copy.

What do we think on price? £50? £60?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 29 May, 2013, 12:09:37 PM
Just seen the price that's been set for it. Those overpriced Titan trades may still be cheaper  :o

Do tell…

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 29 May, 2013, 12:09:43 PM
So, how much is this going to cost me?

The collection will feature all four series, or ‘phases’ as well as later stories by Morrison and Mark Millar.

Wait, what? When did Millar ever write Zenith?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: James Stacey 29 May, 2013, 12:10:13 PM
http://2000ad.wordpress.com/2013/05/29/so-anyone-been-waiting-for-zenith/

Price £100
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 29 May, 2013, 12:11:27 PM
http://2000ad.wordpress.com/2013/05/29/so-anyone-been-waiting-for-zenith/

Price £100

Ouch  :'(

I am still going to buy it though.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 29 May, 2013, 12:11:41 PM
http://2000ad.wordpress.com/2013/05/29/so-anyone-been-waiting-for-zenith/

Price £100

Blimey. Too rich for my pocket.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 29 May, 2013, 12:13:15 PM



Buy 3 copies, keep one and sell the other 2 for a grand each on ebay a year afterwards.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Daveycandlish 29 May, 2013, 12:16:20 PM
I'd love a copy but as I already have the original collections and the progs I'm not sure I can justify this to my wife!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Adventurer 29 May, 2013, 12:19:40 PM
Damn. End of the days and all that.

As someone who won't be able to justify high priced hard cover. Nor really desire one... I really hope for a digital edition someday. Even if I have to buy each Phase individually.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: radiator 29 May, 2013, 12:20:17 PM
Crikey, that's a lot of money for a book.... Think it's safe to say that anyone willing to pay that will be able to get one.

"It will also include later stories by Morrison and Mark Millar."

Anyone know what this means?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JayzusB.Christ 29 May, 2013, 12:21:01 PM
So, how much is this going to cost me?

The collection will feature all four series, or ‘phases’ as well as later stories by Morrison and Mark Millar.

Wait, what? When did Millar ever write Zenith?

He did a text story about an old British working-class man being kept as an exhibit in a superhuman-dominated parallel world.  Not shit, not great.

But Jesus, Zenith collected, eh?   Alan Moore will be writing the next Halo Jones book next.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 29 May, 2013, 12:22:09 PM
Crikey, that's a lot of money for a book.... Think it's safe to say that anyone willing to pay that will be able to get one.

"It will also include later stories by Morrison and Mark Millar."

Anyone know what this means?

The stuff in specials:

http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=thrill&page=profiles&Comic=Specials&choice=ZENITH
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 29 May, 2013, 12:23:47 PM
Curious to see it's a limited edition, but that presumably—or at least possibly/potentially—gives Morrison/Rebellion (who must have come to some kind of deal) wiggle room in 2014 or later to issue individual phases.

Given the cost, I really really hope the people compiling the book put everything in the right order and that the artwork is super spiffy. I imagine the colour page in Phase I and all of Phase IV might stick out a bit. As for ordering, it's absolutely essential to Zenith that all of the add-ons aren't just lumped at the back, but are placed in context. (This is something that the third Nemesis volume sadly got wrong, placing the story where Nemesis freed Candida in the extras, when it's essential to the continuity and what subsequently happens.

Still: Zenith. In print. That's a good thing. (And I'll bet those 1000 copies will sell pretty damn quickly.)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 29 May, 2013, 12:24:50 PM
Alan Moore will be writing the next Halo Jones book next.


Ah here; leave it out.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Greg M. 29 May, 2013, 12:33:48 PM
Praise be to the Many-Angled Ones! Not cheap, but I will undoubtedly have to grab a copy.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: GordonR 29 May, 2013, 12:39:15 PM
Curious to see it's a limited edition, but that presumably—or at least possibly/potentially—gives Morrison/Rebellion (who must have come to some kind of deal) wiggle room in 2014 or later to issue individual phases.

http://comicsbeat.com/zenith-lives/ (http://comicsbeat.com/zenith-lives/)

The important bit:

'We have informed Grant of our intention to republish, but we maintain that we own the rights to reprinting the series.’
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 29 May, 2013, 12:43:51 PM
Uh-oh. I hope this doesn't mean lawyers are about to get involved.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 29 May, 2013, 12:45:40 PM
Well that is exciting. It does raise questions about whether I can afford it given I've made some moves towards a number of possible original art purchases (ironically with...). Still it'll be a thing of beauty and nice to know everyone is playing nice now. I wonder what agreements have been reached? Is this a one off or has ownership been settled?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 29 May, 2013, 12:47:45 PM
nice to know everyone is playing nice now. I wonder what agreements have been reached? Is this a one off or has ownership been settled?


I think Gordon gave you a clue.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 29 May, 2013, 12:49:34 PM
nice to know everyone is playing nice now. I wonder what agreements have been reached? Is this a one off or has ownership been settled?


I think Gordon gave you a clue.

Whoops that must have happened mid typing.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Recrewt 29 May, 2013, 12:50:35 PM
Hmmmm, I must admit - Zenith is one of those stories that passed me by.  I remember reading the last phase in 2000ad in the early 90s but not knowing what came before - I was a little lost.  Its always something I have wanted to pick up but as others have mentioned, £100 is too much for me.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: CrazyFoxMachine 29 May, 2013, 12:51:45 PM
I like the idea of owning all of Zenith. But I don't £100 like it. 
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: robert_ellis 29 May, 2013, 12:55:35 PM
Really hope the "A Night to Remember" and the "Mandela" Annual story is in there, plus "ZZZenith.com"
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 29 May, 2013, 12:56:34 PM
http://comicsbeat.com/zenith-lives/ (http://comicsbeat.com/zenith-lives/)
The important bit:
'We have informed Grant of our intention to republish, but we maintain that we own the rights to reprinting the series.’
Huh. I'd not seen that article. Interesting decision, given the fallout that could ensue. Also surprising on that basis that it's such a limited run.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: BPP 29 May, 2013, 01:09:17 PM
Its all a big scam see, the faux conflict, the 100 quid price tag... we're all part of a GM meta Futureshock, drawn by the great Belardinelli..

(I'm saving up now).
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 29 May, 2013, 01:12:31 PM
It seems that maybe someone in Rebellion decided the pussyfooting around had to stop and they've made a stand! Good news for us, I shall be having one, but this could get messy. Unless I'm wrong (which happens more often than I like to admit) and everyone has come to an amicable agreement...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 29 May, 2013, 01:29:13 PM
This is great news, even though £100 is over twice what I would be prepared to pay.  Presumably there will be a trickle down into affordable paperbacks in a while, now all the digital conversion and compilation has been done.  Fingers crossed re: no serious legal challenges.

A very nice viral tease campaign in the lead up too, tip my hat to Molch-R.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: I, Cosh 29 May, 2013, 01:29:21 PM
Any word on the dimensions of this volume? It's way too pricey for me when I've got the Progs anyway but I'm guessing it'll be full size rather than reduced.

Also, this from today's thrill mail:
The collection will feature all four series, or ‘phases’, the latter two of which have never been reprinted. It will also include later stories by Morrison and Mark Millar
I though it was only Phase 4 which hadn't been reprinted.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 29 May, 2013, 01:44:02 PM
ZOUNDS! Best thing i've read all lunch break! Discarding the 100 bob price tag for the moment, this is new's i've been waiting for since I first started reading tooth. Sorry...'stands up in Starbucks and punches air a few times'..right, yeah, i'm as happy as a buttered halibut right now.

....

But £100? :-\
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: James Stacey 29 May, 2013, 01:48:12 PM
zzzenith.com is still available to register if anyone cares :D
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Steve Green 29 May, 2013, 02:22:47 PM
Well, good luck to them for trying something - but £100 is a bit hefty for me at the moment.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: klute 29 May, 2013, 02:23:32 PM
Hahahaha great news a long time coming in my opinion best news this year so far
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Trout 29 May, 2013, 02:32:18 PM
Yes, please. I'll buy it. I still have a UK credit card I can charge it to.  ;)

I don't think the price is silly. This would take up at least four, and possibly five, individual volumes if it was reprinted as it has been in the past, or in a similar way to Dante, for example. If we assume those books would be about £8 to £12 each, then add something for the upgrade to hardback, we're already well past half of this £100 charge. If it's in a prestigious format, add a bit more.

I've talked a lot lately about how books are becoming fetishised among comics fans, especially people who read comics and other things digitally. Increasingly, we're happy to buy a beautiful book because it gives us pleasure to have it on the shelf, even if we own it in another form. Good examples would be Bryan Talbot's Grandville series, the Edgington/D'Israeli books like Kingdom of the Wicked, and the slipcase reprints of things like Sandman or Lost Girls. I don't think it's wrong to assume this Zenith book, although more expensive, would fit into that category.

Anyway, WAAAAAAANT.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Link Prime 29 May, 2013, 02:37:20 PM
Really glad its in print.
I think they're havin a fackin giraffe with the price though...100 quid is too much- that'd be almost 120 Euro.

No, I'll wait for a paperback or digital trade.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: radiator 29 May, 2013, 02:49:09 PM
If we assume those books would be about £8 to £12 each, then add something for the upgrade to hardback, we're already well past half of this £100 charge.

I actually think it's more likely that going by current pricing each separate phase in paperback would be closer to £14/15rrp, with phase 3 probably nearer £17/18 as it'd be a pretty chunky book, so yeah, it's not as outrageous as it initially sounds.

My concern now is that I'll buy this expensive version, then they'll announce the paperback versions next year...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Proudhuff 29 May, 2013, 02:55:03 PM


This from the Rebellion email:


ZENITH'S BACK!
 
2000 AD is to publish a complete collection of Grant Morrison and Steve Yeowell's ground-breaking superhero series Zenith for the first time.
 
The limited edition hardback will only be available from the 2000 AD online shop. Restricted to 1,000 copies, it will be up for pre-order from 1 July and  published on 1 December.
 
Never collected in its entirety before, this is a unique opportunity to own the whole of Morrison's first superhero series in a never-to-be-repeated edition.
 
Starting in 1987, Zenith heralded the arrival of a talent who has since gone on to become one of the biggest names in comic books. A very cynical British take on superheroes, Zenith showcases themes and ideas found throughout Morrison’s later work for Marvel and DC, and demonstrates his remarkable depth and maturity as a writer. Yeowell’s striking black and white artwork gave the strip a vitality and rawness that still shines through today.
 
The collection will feature all four series, or ‘phases’, the latter two of which have never been reprinted. It will also include later stories by Morrison and Mark Millar.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: klute 29 May, 2013, 03:04:05 PM
Yes, please. I'll buy it. I still have a UK credit card I can charge it to.  ;)

I don't think the price is silly. This would take up at least four, and possibly five, individual volumes if it was reprinted as it has been in the past, or in a similar way to Dante, for example. If we assume those books would be about £8 to £12 each, then add something for the upgrade to hardback, we're already well past half of this £100 charge. If it's in a prestigious format, add a bit more.

I've talked a lot lately about how books are becoming fetishised among comics fans, especially people who read comics and other things digitally. Increasingly, we're happy to buy a beautiful book because it gives us pleasure to have it on the shelf, even if we own it in another form. Good examples would be Bryan Talbot's Grandville series, the Edgington/D'Israeli books like Kingdom of the Wicked, and the slipcase reprints of things like Sandman or Lost Girls. I don't think it's wrong to assume this Zenith book, although more expensive, would fit into that category.

Anyway, WAAAAAAANT.

In the end how much do people spend on places like amazon/ebay etc buying the phases available? it is/does seem  steep price wise but when i look at my case files and other GN's i like many people have spent a small fortune. and will continue to do so,on books that bring us joy.
As long as it makes the reader happy then it's priceless.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Trout 29 May, 2013, 03:08:29 PM
If we assume those books would be about £8 to £12 each, then add something for the upgrade to hardback, we're already well past half of this £100 charge.

I actually think it's more likely that going by current pricing each separate phase in paperback would be closer to £14/15rrp, with phase 3 probably nearer £17/18 as it'd be a pretty chunky book, so yeah, it's not as outrageous as it initially sounds.

Indeed. Thanks for that.

Also, let's remember this: unsavoury as it may seem, a publishing company exists to make a profit. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that Rebellion should have a mark-up on something which will definitely prove popular.

Yes, they are following the second-hand market and pricing their reprint in that area, but why shouldn't they? It's not a utility company hiking their price so that old ladies freeze. It's only a book. If it's too expensive, don't buy it. I understand that people want it cheaply but - as I tell my children - wanting and getting are different things.

</dad>  ;)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 29 May, 2013, 03:13:58 PM
This is all well and good, but what if I want this THB but lack the funds to do so? Anyone know anyone in need of a kidney?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: dweezil2 29 May, 2013, 03:15:35 PM
Wow!
Great news!   :)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 29 May, 2013, 03:34:40 PM
http://comicsbeat.com/zenith-lives/ (http://comicsbeat.com/zenith-lives/)

The important bit:

'We have informed Grant of our intention to republish, but we maintain that we own the rights to reprinting the series.’

It's priced to offset the cost of the court case.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 29 May, 2013, 03:35:37 PM
One thing that's being banded around that makes a softcover release seem unlikely, at this stage at least, is the way Rebellion are releasing it, via their shop only, is a way to cut out Diamond who are apparently nervous around anything that might be heading to litigation (not that anyone's saying this will by the way) and so by selling exclusively themselves, in a premium edition they get the biggest return, with the minimum of fuss, in terms of having to distribute.

 http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/05/29/grant-morrison-and-steve-yeowell-informed-about-rebellions-plans-to-publish-the-complete-zenith-by-rebellion-direct-for-100/ (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/05/29/grant-morrison-and-steve-yeowell-informed-about-rebellions-plans-to-publish-the-complete-zenith-by-rebellion-direct-for-100/)

Mind it is Rich Johnson saying this so ya know!

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: James Stacey 29 May, 2013, 03:37:04 PM
If Morrison doesn't kick off about this release, surely he has no basis to complain about a trade paperback following it.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 29 May, 2013, 03:40:31 PM
If Morrison doesn't kick off about this release, surely he has no basis to complain about a trade paperback following it.

I think it'd be more a case of Rebellion having to distribute it themselves, or via someone other than Diamond which they may not want to do. Though of course if Grant Morrison doesn't act against this would that change the legal status of the whole thing? Armchair lawyer I ain't.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Spikes 29 May, 2013, 03:57:58 PM
The old progs will do for me, but £100 isnt asking a lot really, for this.
Not that im saying £100 isnt a lot of money, because it is. And just how much do peeps spend on other more disposable stuff - day in day out?
Not out until December? That's a good ways off, yet. More news to come, id imagine.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Patrick 29 May, 2013, 04:10:38 PM
I'm not a lawyer, but I have worked in a paralegal field, so this is my interpretation. The press release says Morrison and Yeowell have been "informed" of what Rebellion plan to do - in other words, they've been put on notice of a potential breach of copyright. The limitation period for a copyright claim in the UK is six years, which starts when you're put on notice, i.e. when you became aware of the breach. So Morrison and Yeowell have six years to issue legal proceedings. If they don't, then six years from this press release Rebellion can say their claim to ownership is uncontested, and they can reprint it whatever way they like - which probably means cheaper paperback reprints somewhere down the line. Same if proceedings are issued and Rebellion win. What happens if Morrison and Yeowell win? My guess is they take it to DC, who own all the IPC characters in Phase 3 and 4.

(I assume Rebellion have cleared the use of the IPC characters with DC. If not they could see themselves sued, not just by a couple of freelancers, but by a huge multinational corporation with very deep pockets.)

Making the book available for pre-ordering so far in advance of publication, at such a high price, is an interesting move. If Morrison and Yeowell issue proceedings, then the book can't be published until the proceedings are settled. But if they issue proceedings after a pre-orders have been received but before publication, I don't know where it leaves those pre-orders. My guess is, the intention is to turn the fans against the creators for preventing them receiving the books they'd paid for.

Whatever, this book is a legal ploy, a challenge to Grant Morrison to put up or shut up. Time will tell how wise that is.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 29 May, 2013, 04:17:30 PM
I'm not a lawyer

Making the rest of your post a fantastically unwise thing to post on the official site of the publisher whose motives you are questioning.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Trout 29 May, 2013, 04:22:10 PM
I'm not a lawyer

Making the rest of your post a fantastically unwise thing to post on the official site of the publisher whose motives you are questioning.

Cheers

Jim

Hmmm. Yes. Sorry, Patrick. I'm not a lawyer either but I do have an LLB. Let's not dismantle this issue too openly.

- Trout
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Grant Goggans 29 May, 2013, 04:35:25 PM
It's priced to offset the cost of the court case.

That was always the rationale employed by record stores in California when asked about the high costs of their bootleg LPs...   :lol:
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Patrick 29 May, 2013, 05:07:47 PM
Jim, Trout, you're probably right. Unfortunately I don't seem to able to edit the post. If a moderator wants to remove it, I wouldn't object.
: The Complete Zenith
: Darren Stephens 29 May, 2013, 05:08:25 PM
Just wish I was a little richer. Only really remember the first book, so would love to reread the rest. Anyone else tempted?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: James 29 May, 2013, 05:22:06 PM
But the burning question still remains: will I be able to buy a Zenith t-shirt?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dunk! 29 May, 2013, 05:50:01 PM
£100 payable on order in July or on despatch in Dec?

The Nemesis Colour Collection was pay up front and then wait.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Tjm86 29 May, 2013, 06:01:07 PM
£100 payable on order in July or on despatch in Dec?

The Nemesis Colour Collection was pay up front and then wait.
They normally do pay up front and wait. 

On subject of price £100 is not far off the DC absolute editions, the Martha Washington hardback was about this price as well and the same is true of the Walking Dead slipcase GN's.  That said they do tend to have a range of extras to justify the extra price.  Somehow though I doubt an intro by the writer / artist or a signed and numbered edition is going to be forthcoming.  Shame really.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 29 May, 2013, 06:15:13 PM
£100 payable on order in July or on despatch in Dec?

The Nemesis Colour Collection was pay up front and then wait.
They normally do pay up front and wait. 

On subject of price £100 is not far off the DC absolute editions.

Where are buying those from!?  :o I've never paid more than £60...
: Re: Re: Re: The Complete Zenith
: sheldipez 29 May, 2013, 06:17:29 PM
£100 payable on order in July or on despatch in Dec?

The Nemesis Colour Collection was pay up front and then wait.
They normally do pay up front and wait. 

On subject of price £100 is not far off the DC absolute editions, the Martha Washington hardback was about this price as well and the same is true of the Walking Dead slipcase GN's.  That said they do tend to have a range of extras to justify the extra price.  Somehow though I doubt an intro by the writer / artist or a signed and numbered edition is going to be forthcoming.  Shame really.

I'd love to see what he'd inscribe on these. Leave Morrison alone with1000 books. ;D
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Batman's Superior Cousin 29 May, 2013, 06:18:27 PM
I'm pre-ordering it!!!! :D :lol:
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Spikes 29 May, 2013, 06:27:14 PM
Meanwhile over on FB.

(http://i.imgur.com/2LWWOat.jpg)
: Re: Re: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 29 May, 2013, 06:29:27 PM
I'd love to see what he'd inscribe on these. Leave Morrison alone with1000 books. ;D

"Why are these pages stuck together, Grant?"

"Fuck off, it's magic."

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 29 May, 2013, 06:51:08 PM
 :lol:
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 29 May, 2013, 07:00:01 PM
I am going to go for this. It's a lot of money, but a great comic.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Tjm86 29 May, 2013, 07:31:04 PM
£100 payable on order in July or on despatch in Dec?

The Nemesis Colour Collection was pay up front and then wait.
They normally do pay up front and wait. 

On subject of price £100 is not far off the DC absolute editions.

Where are buying those from!?  :o I've never paid more than £60...

arguably £60 is not far off £100 but if you look at some of the hard to find ones such as Planetary or LOEG then well over £100 is not outside the realms of possibility.  Granted it is not that common for initial listings to be that high but some folks have tried.  Personally never paid more than £60 but there is the advantage of them being listed on multiple sites to bring down the price.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 29 May, 2013, 07:38:53 PM
Meanwhile over on FB.

(http://i.imgur.com/2LWWOat.jpg)

Excellent points, well made. However, The Great Lost Work of Grant Morrison is the USP of this project, so you can hardly blame Rebellion for leading with that, even allowing for the great artists whose brilliance made it work.

Re: £100.  When I say it's more than twice what I'd be prepared to pay, that doesn't mean I think it's overpriced.  If I actually had £100 to spend on comics I'd be on this like a Thrillsucker on Burt.  Suck-heil!
 
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 29 May, 2013, 07:56:44 PM
£100 payable on order in July or on despatch in Dec?

The Nemesis Colour Collection was pay up front and then wait.
They normally do pay up front and wait. 

On subject of price £100 is not far off the DC absolute editions.


Where are buying those from!?  :o I've never paid more than £60...

arguably £60 is not far off £100 but if you look at some of the hard to find ones such as Planetary or LOEG then well over £100 is not outside the realms of possibility.  Granted it is not that common for initial listings to be that high but some folks have tried.  Personally never paid more than £60 but there is the advantage of them being listed on multiple sites to bring down the price.

Fair points but I'd argue that £60 is quite a long way off £100 for some folk! You're right about multiple sites listing driving the price down though... I'm still having one mind!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Taryn Tailz 29 May, 2013, 07:58:12 PM
I'm hoping to start studying towards a degree in Astronomy later this year, and the coure textbook for that is going to be over £100. It's double the length of Zenith but probably a bit more of a heavy read.  :lol:
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: dweezil2 29 May, 2013, 08:46:23 PM
What if Grant Morrison buys all 1,000?   :o
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Tombo 29 May, 2013, 09:04:02 PM
Two days ago I ordered the last five progs I need to complete my Zenith collection, and now I find out about this.  I am torn  :-\  £100 is a lot of money.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Darren Stephens 29 May, 2013, 09:22:18 PM
Two days ago I ordered the last five progs I need to complete my Zenith collection, and now I find out about this.  I am torn  :-\  £100 is a lot of money.

It is, but........ :D Why, dear grud, does my girlfriends 40th have to fall so close to this coming out? She wants a tablet PC......wonder if she'd like this instead? :lol:
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Goaty 29 May, 2013, 10:19:36 PM

£100

 :o
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 29 May, 2013, 10:30:42 PM
At least it's a round number. :-\
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 29 May, 2013, 10:39:16 PM

£100

 

It comes packaged with a £90 note stuck to the cover.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 29 May, 2013, 10:44:07 PM


What's it stuck with?

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Buttonman 29 May, 2013, 11:16:16 PM
No worries about the moral side of things - I'm pretty sure all concerned knew what the deal was at the time; the lack of a signed contract doesn't make it right to claim stuff years later.

The £100 on the other hand is a bit more of a consideration - will this be an heirloom of the future or will it be usurped 6 months later with a fresh edition with a new hat?

I read the whole thing in 4 sittings recently and it certainly stands up, but will it generate £100 worth of re-reads over the remaing 40 or so years of my life?

All things considered I'll probably grab one and then feel obliged to read it every six month to get my money's worth.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 29 May, 2013, 11:23:57 PM


All things considered I'll probably grab one and then feel obliged to read it every six month to get my money's worth.

Or flog it on ebay.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 29 May, 2013, 11:27:22 PM



All that money you drokkers saved by getting Marshall Law on the cheap at amazon can now be put towards the Zenith shelf-breaker.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dash Decent 29 May, 2013, 11:35:00 PM
I can understand why Rebellion might not say, but it would be good to know if a TPB is a possibility.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 30 May, 2013, 07:33:24 AM
What if Grant Morrison buys all 1,000?   :o

Genius. 
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: mogzilla 30 May, 2013, 08:32:24 AM
i'm probably in the minority about not being excited about this as zenith was one of the reasons in the day I lost interest in the prog but if its going to be so popular will tharg consider a softback version for the slavering masses?

  While he's at it he could sort that return to Armageddon collection we'd like please?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 30 May, 2013, 08:43:49 AM
What if Grant Morrison buys all 1,000?   :o

Surely the perfect solution (well except for people who want to own it and all, but as I've always said the Progs aren't hard to get hold of AND you get more besides). Rebellion get a sell out and all the encouragement they need to carry on with this type of thing. Grant gets 100% ownership as he believes he deserves (well of course he'd need to give half to Steve Yeowell) and he can use the books to make a portal to the 5th dimension, as I'm sure that much concentrated Zenith in one place would wrap space time* and I imagine buying in a 5th dimensional portal would cost more than £100,000 normally anyway.

See perfect solution.

*I don't think the original trade print run was pulped as has been speculated, I image it was sitting in the printing house and still is in fact, its just its transcended to a higher plain that we mere 3 dimensional being can't see. Superman is reading it now and always has been.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mattofthespurs 30 May, 2013, 10:03:36 AM
Sadly too rich for me.
I do have all the progs and specials so it's difficult to justify purchasing a book with stuff I already own.

And, from my point of view, £100 is quite a bit different than £60. Nearly double in fact.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin Zeal 30 May, 2013, 11:38:35 AM
A fair whack to shell out in one hit but as others have pointed out the cost when compared to individual trades is pretty good. I'll be ordering a copy, but it will mean that spending on other trades and comics around then will be basically sod all.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: radiator 30 May, 2013, 11:57:45 AM
So do we think it'll be a 'one purchase per customer' kind of deal?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JSouth5942 30 May, 2013, 12:17:14 PM


Excellent points, well made. However, The Great Lost Work of Grant Morrison is the USP of this project, so you can hardly blame Rebellion for leading with that, even allowing for the great artists whose brilliance made it work.


No, what I blame Rebellion for is taking advantage of all the fans who have been begging for this book to be released for so long by slapping a £100 price point on it! How can they even justify this price?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Bolt-01 30 May, 2013, 12:22:59 PM
I don't work for Rebellion and I won't be slapping £100 down for this, but as far as I'm concerned this is a 'very' limited edition to a work that has been out of print for a heck of a long time. I've no idea what the print costs would be for a product like this, but to be blunt- Rebellion can charge what they like. If the market is there it will sell, otherwise we might find a copy or two in the works at a nifty discount.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 30 May, 2013, 12:28:32 PM
Looking around, most hardback luxury editions appear to be about half the size of this volume, and yet are still 38 quid at retail. (Hellboy Library editions, for example, or IDW output.) Go to massive, chunky books like Absolute Sandman and you end up with 75-quid price-tags. Admittedly, those have more pages (616), but also aren't limited, are a reasonably known quantity (a series that sells well in print), and have fantastic distribution.

Assuming plenty of care is taken in making sure the repro for this is top-notch, and assuming the book itself is really well-made, I can see the price-point as being justifiable.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: sheldipez 30 May, 2013, 12:31:38 PM
I don't work for Rebellion and I won't be slapping £100 down for this, but as far as I'm concerned this is a 'very' limited edition to a work that has been out of print for a heck of a long time. I've no idea what the print costs would be for a product like this, but to be blunt- Rebellion can charge what they like. If the market is there it will sell, otherwise we might find a copy or two in the works at a nifty discount.

Could be small print run for a large hardback book = profit margin smaller than we think?

Price seems bit harsh compared to something like the [signed] Termight Edition of Nemesis but it's probably justified going off purely how much press this got yesterday.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JSouth5942 30 May, 2013, 12:37:44 PM
I don't work for Rebellion and I won't be slapping £100 down for this, but as far as I'm concerned this is a 'very' limited edition to a work that has been out of print for a heck of a long time. I've no idea what the print costs would be for a product like this, but to be blunt- Rebellion can charge what they like. If the market is there it will sell, otherwise we might find a copy or two in the works at a nifty discount.

Sure they can charge what they like for it, its just a shame the people they are taking advantage of are the people who have supported them all these years. Of course the market is there for this book and they know it that's why they have decided to rinse people for so much money. I'm sure there was nothing stopping them offering a more standard edition along side the limited edition for those that wanted it, but they haven't.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: sheldipez 30 May, 2013, 12:41:31 PM
I don't work for Rebellion and I won't be slapping £100 down for this, but as far as I'm concerned this is a 'very' limited edition to a work that has been out of print for a heck of a long time. I've no idea what the print costs would be for a product like this, but to be blunt- Rebellion can charge what they like. If the market is there it will sell, otherwise we might find a copy or two in the works at a nifty discount.

Sure they can charge what they like for it, its just a shame the people they are taking advantage of are the people who have supported them all these years. Of course the market is there for this book and they know it that's why they have decided to rinse people for so much money. I'm sure there was nothing stopping them offering a more standard edition along side the limited edition for those that wanted it, but they haven't.

But that's going back to the legal grounds that this is currently in, don't mean to repeat others posts earlier in the thread but if these 1000 get out in the wild with "no issues" then that'll put Rebellion in clear for futher individual volumes sold via normal retailers (and Diamond can list with confidence), which I'll be first in queue for.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JSouth5942 30 May, 2013, 12:44:29 PM
I don't work for Rebellion and I won't be slapping £100 down for this, but as far as I'm concerned this is a 'very' limited edition to a work that has been out of print for a heck of a long time. I've no idea what the print costs would be for a product like this, but to be blunt- Rebellion can charge what they like. If the market is there it will sell, otherwise we might find a copy or two in the works at a nifty discount.

Sure they can charge what they like for it, its just a shame the people they are taking advantage of are the people who have supported them all these years. Of course the market is there for this book and they know it that's why they have decided to rinse people for so much money. I'm sure there was nothing stopping them offering a more standard edition along side the limited edition for those that wanted it, but they haven't.

But that's going back to the legal grounds that this is currently in, don't mean to repeat others posts earlier in the thread but if these 1000 get out in the wild with "no issues" then that'll put Rebellion in clear for futher individual volumes sold via normal retailers (and Diamond can list with confidence), which I'll be first in queue for.

Surely any legal issues would have needed to have been sorted no matter the size of the print run or distribution method?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: radiator 30 May, 2013, 12:45:09 PM
Sure they can charge what they like for it, its just a shame the people they are taking advantage of are the people who have supported them all these years. Of course the market is there for this book and they know it that's why they have decided to rinse people for so much money. I'm sure there was nothing stopping them offering a more standard edition along side the limited edition for those that wanted it, but they haven't.

To be fair and to my knowledge, they haven't actually stated that there definitely will not be more affordable paperback editions in the future, they just said this particular edition will never be reprinted.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dash Decent 30 May, 2013, 12:52:11 PM
Exactly why it would be appreciated if they'd come on the forum and clear this point up.  I'd prefer a more affordable trade, but if I knew for certain this would be the only way to get it for a very long time, I'd do my best to save up.

Of course, I understand why they may stay silent for business reasons, or even if they've decided to take a cautious wait-and-see approach.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 30 May, 2013, 12:52:33 PM
Surely any legal issues would have needed to have been sorted no matter the size of the print run or distribution method?

This is discussed in some detail earlier in this very thread.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Richmond Clements 30 May, 2013, 01:11:58 PM
its just a shame the people they are taking advantage of are the people who have supported them all these years.


I will sat here that I too, do not work for Rebellion, and don't have £100 to shell out on this book, but - WTF?
Sorry, but this is nonsense. Nobody is taking advantage of anyone. Rebellion are a buisiness. Publishing is a business.
And as someone has pointed out, a low print run of a hard back book is going to cost a lot of money.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 30 May, 2013, 01:17:57 PM
And as someone has pointed out, a low print run of a hard back book is going to cost a lot of money.

And, as also mentioned, the progs aren't actually hard to get hold of, and there are multiple threads on this very board about getting DIY binding done to create your own hardcover volumes.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Arkwright99 30 May, 2013, 01:18:10 PM
I'd prefer a more affordable trade, but if I knew for certain this would be the only way to get it for a very long time, I'd do my best to save up.
Then you've got a month because based on what others have said above 'pre-ordering' on July 1st means paying on July 1st and then waiting five months before Rebellion ship the book to you on December 1st. Which is in contrast to, say, Amazon where pre-ordering is more akin to placing a 'reservation' and you're not charged until just before they despatch your order. I'm sure I could scrap £100 together by Dec 1st but I'm not sure I can do so in the next thirty days to stand a chance of getting a copy.

Of course, if I'm wrong about how the 2000AD Shop pre-order system works then I'd love to know.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Recrewt 30 May, 2013, 01:35:58 PM
I've said earlier in this thread that £100 puts this out of my league but I can't really judge if it is worth this until we see more detail on the actual product.  I don't have a problem with something being more expensive if it is worth it - and that's not just based on the availability of the material elsewhere.  It took a while before we found out about the prints that come with the Nemisis HB, so who knows what else will come out. 

One thing I would say is key though is the quality of the reproductions and for this money, I would expect larger pages than something like the case files.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dandontdare 30 May, 2013, 01:45:20 PM
As a few people have said it's very nice, but too dear for me as I already own the progs. I'd re-buy it in a series of matching TPBs, and I'd consider paying this if I didn't have the progs, but for now - no thanks.

And whilst I think that it is a great strip, I wonder if the the scarcity has kind of bumped up people's opinions of the quality? Would it have the same reputation if it was in it's 12th paperback printing?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Sideshow Bob 30 May, 2013, 04:50:07 PM
I agree that £100 is a lot of cash to pay for a book.....
However,  it is a limited edition, hardback and provided it has good quality reproduced artwork in it...it isn't really too bad for what you are getting !..
As an example, the 1st  five Graphic Novels are for sale on eBay,  and if you were lucky enough to get all of these it would cost you,  including postage at least £100.....That's providing they all don't go over £20 each...

Just saying... :D
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 30 May, 2013, 04:55:46 PM
Funny also how quite a few people don't realise that the five Titan books are only in fact three phases, since the first two were split between two books.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Sideshow Bob 30 May, 2013, 05:04:35 PM
Funny also how quite a few people don't realise that the five Titan books are only in fact three phases, since the first two were split between two books.
.

I didn't actually know that either, IndigoPrime.....Thanks..
That makes my point of £100 ( although expensive ) not being too bad, all the more valid...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: radiator 30 May, 2013, 05:23:24 PM
since the first two were split between two books.

Wasn't it Phase III that was split over two books?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: W. R. Logan 30 May, 2013, 05:58:34 PM
10 of you could timeshare a copy :-)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Recrewt 30 May, 2013, 06:03:07 PM
Zenith has four phases but only 1 - 3 have been reprinted outside of the prog.  Looking on Barney phase 1 was books 1 & 2.  Phase 2 was books 2 & 3.  Phase 3 was books 4 & 5.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 30 May, 2013, 06:23:09 PM
Gah—yes, sorry. Was clearly not paying attention to what I was writing earlier. But, yeah, five Titan books equals three phases, not four (or five, given that there wasn't a fifth).
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Trout 30 May, 2013, 09:42:56 PM
they are taking advantage of are the people who have supported them all these years

I disagree strongly that anyone is being taken advantage of, but the issue does seem a simple one: if you don't buy it, no one can take advantage of you.

Why are people suggesting this price is unfair? You haven't even seen the product yet. I bet it's gorgeous, and far nicer than the wrinkled, second-hand 20-year-old Titan reprint volumes that regularly sell for more than £100 for a set on eBay.

Let's stress the key points here:

1. This material is really good.

2. Publishing is a business.

3. The price is similar to the second-hand market, but it will be a new hardback book.

4. It will be a big book of all things Zenith, designed to the completist fan.

5. Complaining isn't going to change anything.

- Trout
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Sideshow Bob 30 May, 2013, 09:49:10 PM
I agree that £100 is a lot of cash to pay for a book.....
However,  it is a limited edition, hardback and provided it has good quality reproduced artwork in it...it isn't really too bad for what you are getting !..
As an example, the 1st  five Graphic Novels are for sale on eBay,  and if you were lucky enough to get all of these it would cost you,  including postage at least £100.....That's providing they all don't go over £20 each...

Just saying... :D

And Also ....

I disagree strongly that anyone is being taken advantage of, but the issue does seem a simple one: if you don't buy it, no one can take advantage of you.

Why are people suggesting this price is unfair? You haven't even seen the product yet. I bet it's gorgeous, and far nicer than the wrinkled, second-hand 20-year-old Titan reprint volumes that regularly sell for more than £100 for a set on eBay.

Let's stress the key points here:

1. This material is really good.

2. Publishing is a business.

3. The price is similar to the second-hand market, but it will be a new hardback book.

4. It will be a big book of all things Zenith, designed to the completist fan.

5. Complaining isn't going to change anything.

- Trout (http://I disagree strongly that anyone is being taken advantage of, but the issue does seem a simple one: if you don't buy it, no one can take advantage of you.

Why are people suggesting this price is unfair? You haven't even seen the product yet. I bet it's gorgeous, and far nicer than the wrinkled, second-hand 20-year-old Titan reprint volumes that regularly sell for more than £100 for a set on eBay.

Let's stress the key points here:

1. This material is really good.

2. Publishing is a business.

3. The price is similar to the second-hand market, but it will be a new hardback book.

4. It will be a big book of all things Zenith, designed to the completist fan.

5. Complaining isn't going to change anything.

- Trout)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Fatboydale 30 May, 2013, 11:35:35 PM
£100 is nothing ....If i had the money i would be having 500 copies .....
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: dweezil2 30 May, 2013, 11:46:47 PM
£100 sounds more than reasonable for so many pages of quality Proggage, if you ask me.
Which you didn't.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: O Lucky Stevie! 31 May, 2013, 02:05:45 AM
I think it'd be more a case of Rebellion having to distribute it themselves, or via someone other than Diamond which they may not want to do.

Diamond are just plain lousy filling pre-orders of British publications regardless. About a third of my pre-orders never show up. If they couldn't ship The Art of Dredd then there's not a snowball's chance in the chromosphere of your LCS seeing a copy of this.

Fantastic news.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 31 May, 2013, 08:02:41 AM
We are a perfect example of the fanboy mentality, aren't we?

1.  DO IT DO IT DO IT, OH WHY WON'T YOU DO IT, IF YOU DID IT IT'D BE LIKE PRINTING MONEY!
2.  YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 31 May, 2013, 08:32:23 AM
We are a perfect example of the fanboy mentality, aren't we?

1.  DO IT DO IT DO IT, OH WHY WON'T YOU DO IT, IF YOU DID IT IT'D BE LIKE PRINTING MONEY!
2.  YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!

Its funny 'cos its true.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Proudhuff 31 May, 2013, 01:45:44 PM


(http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/11295_4_00590.jpg)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 31 May, 2013, 03:37:52 PM
We are a perfect example of the fanboy mentality, aren't we?

1.  DO IT DO IT DO IT, OH WHY WON'T YOU DO IT, IF YOU DID IT IT'D BE LIKE PRINTING MONEY!
2.  YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!
Post of the day.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Steve Green 31 May, 2013, 04:22:03 PM
Not enough exclamation marks.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: LARF 31 May, 2013, 05:25:05 PM
We are a perfect example of the fanboy mentality, aren't we?

1.  DO IT DO IT DO IT, OH WHY WON'T YOU DO IT, IF YOU DID IT IT'D BE LIKE PRINTING MONEY!
2.  YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!

Brilliant.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 01 June, 2013, 12:13:04 AM
£100? Eeek. Now I'm not sure if I will get a copy either.
Or maybe I will. This is sounding more like Kickstarter where you pay your money and x months later you get your stuff.

Now I don't buy big collections from DC (don't read anything bar 2000ad really) but if you look at other things I have bought complete Far Side or Calvin and Hobbes, those retail for £100 (although I paid less).
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 01 June, 2013, 12:17:27 AM
This is sounding more like Kickstarter where you pay your money and x months later you get your stuff.


I think there's a fairly good indication of what we're getting, unlike Kickstarter. Consider it a print on demand.



: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Adventurer 01 June, 2013, 12:20:37 AM
Except clearly the print quality will be far superior to 'print on demand'.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Monarch 01 June, 2013, 12:21:27 AM
I...cannot afford this :(

why cannot I afford this

(well okay I know why...but still)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Adventurer 01 June, 2013, 12:27:08 AM
For you Brits, remember us Yanks will be paying over $150 for this. And that doesn't include overseas shipping.

So quit your bitch'n
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Trout 01 June, 2013, 12:32:55 AM
For you Brits, remember us Yanks will be paying over $150 for this. And that doesn't include overseas shipping.

So quit your bitch'n

See also we residents of Canada. Well said, sir.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dash Decent 01 June, 2013, 12:45:44 AM
Except clearly the print quality will be far superior to 'print on demand'.

Given the page count and the price, this has got to bound with sewn sections, hasn't it?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 01 June, 2013, 12:47:17 AM
I think there's a fairly good indication of what we're getting, unlike Kickstarter. Consider it a print on demand.

I know exactly what I'm getting with Kickstarter, just as I would with Rebellion.
It's print on demand as long as you demand it in several months time. That's the relation to Kickstarter I meant.

I'm sure it'll be a lovely tome.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 01 June, 2013, 12:53:31 AM
I know exactly what I'm getting with Kickstarter, just as I would with Rebellion.


Zenith all ready exists (it's new packaging you're paying for) and most Kickstarter projects are a promise of created content yet to be. The Veronica Mars film may still end up being shite- disappointing the fans.


: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mister Pops 01 June, 2013, 01:15:18 AM
Heh, maybe this is like kickstarter, but instead of paying for potential content, you're paying for potential legal fees.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mister Pops 01 June, 2013, 01:18:27 AM
Damn, Sauchie beat me to that one a few pages back.

Nevermind, as you were.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: O Lucky Stevie! 01 June, 2013, 06:17:11 AM
Quote from: The Adventurer on Today at 12:27:08 AM
For you Brits, remember us Yanks will be paying over $150 for this. And that doesn't include overseas shipping.

So quit your bitch'n

See also we residents of Canada. Well said, sir.


Ditto for Auxtralia.

To put that into perspective, that’s about the same as Diamond slugged us for Thrill Power Overload when it came out.

But still cheaper than The Invisibles Omnibus or an Absolute edition.

Or a ticket to a music festival where you’re only interested in three bands on the bill like the Big Day Out.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 01 June, 2013, 08:06:12 AM
I know exactly what I'm getting with Kickstarter...

I think you need to read the terms and conditions on Kickstarter!  Kickstarter guarantees you nothing - you are pledging money to help achieve a project goal you think is worthwhile, once the target sum is reached you have got what you wanted (achieved the funding goal) and your donation will be taken, and any material benefits you receive afterwards are basically incidental.  Obviously you hope the funded folk will send you a product, but that's not why you sent the money, and there's no comeback.

Pre-ordering from Rebellion is entering into a contract - they get your money, you get your book or have access to the usual avenues of reddress. 
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 01 June, 2013, 08:55:08 AM
The only issue is if Rebellion go bust in between taking the pre-order money and the ship date. If that happens the £100 is history.

To avert this possible disaster I recommend that everyone spends as much money as possible on Rebellion products.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mark Taylor 01 June, 2013, 12:03:29 PM
Well at this stage we really don't know what we're getting. I'd happily pay £100 for a nice oversized, slipcased, beautifully bound edition like the Ultimate Sandman volumes I have sitting on my bookshelf. For a more regular sized hardback with a fairly ordinarly binding - such as the recent 'Deluxe Edition' Marshall Law reprint which I also have (from Amazon for under a tenner) - not so much. For that, £40 max.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mark Taylor 01 June, 2013, 12:08:19 PM
Sorry, I meant of course Absolute Sandman, not Ultimate.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: radiator 01 June, 2013, 12:51:17 PM
Really torn on whether to get it or not. As Mark said, ideally I'd like to see
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: radiator 01 June, 2013, 12:52:40 PM
Oops...

..More details before I slap down the cash. I suppose its relatively low risk as the book is bound to become a collectors item and will presumably at least hold its value I one wanted to sell it on.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 01 June, 2013, 01:50:04 PM
Kickstarter guarantees you nothing

I tend to be buying books from people/websites I already know and trust and for which the product has already been created, so it's just a way for them to get the money up front.


Pre-ordering from Rebellion is entering into a contract - they get your money, you get your book or have access to the usual avenues of reddress.

And wait months. Just like Kickstarter. Which is the point I am making.
Of course we'll get the book but it's not already been printed yet has it. Just like Kickstarter.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 01 June, 2013, 03:40:01 PM
Just like Kickstarter.

Apart from it being fucking nothing like Kickstarter.

Strong in this thread, the stupid is.

Bah.

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 01 June, 2013, 03:48:32 PM
So if I buy Zenith on July 1st I'll get it right away? No I won't.
Pre-ordering is an interesting development for Rebellion and I think the best way of actually making the shop grow
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 01 June, 2013, 03:50:08 PM
With the Termight book as well I mean
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 01 June, 2013, 05:45:18 PM
So if I buy Zenith on July 1st I'll get it right away? No I won't.
That's called pre-ordering, which is commonplace everywhere (and, depending on terms, either drains your bank account at the point of order or when the item ships). Kickstarter is nothing like that: you're funding a project. That's it. If you don't get what you paid for, tough. If you don't get anything, tough. With the Zenith book, you're entering into a contract with Rebellion, and Rebellion is obliged to provide said goods. It cannot turn round in July 2014, six months after you 'funded' the project and say "well, here's a book about kittens" or "actually, here's nothing at all—sorry". (Kickstarter's slightly better these days from a guarantees standpoint, but it's still a hell of a long way from a standard transaction.)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Steve Green 01 June, 2013, 06:37:19 PM
One of the reasons why Kickstarter is not some magic solution as some people seem to think.
: Re: Re: The Complete Zenith
: sheldipez 01 June, 2013, 07:27:11 PM
There's a bunch of kickstarters where the creators have disappeared into the night. Big difference between that and pre ordering.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 01 June, 2013, 08:30:33 PM
Which is why I don't put big money into something with someone I've not dealt with before on Kickstarter.

I know pre-ordering. I buy books as part of my job. There is pre-ordering and there is pre-ordering. This is a long time (as is the Termight book) to be waiting.
And when I pre-order books they don't take the money until it is shipped.

My point is that this is not normal for the majority of peoples experiences.
I'm not saying it's bad, just different, as others have said as well.

I wonder how quickly they expect the 1000 to sell out. The timer seems to run out at Midnight, so does that mean someone will be sending out an email for the correct shop page then? Or someone will be loading it up onto the public shop at midnight?

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Art 01 June, 2013, 09:42:01 PM
I would totally pre-order a pre-order of this, if I could.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Cactus 01 June, 2013, 09:57:39 PM
I would totally pre-order a pre-order of this, if I could.

Tell you what, bung me twenty quid I promise to try and be online at 00:00:01 on 1st July to pre-order a copy for you.

I have no problems with the publication, or the price. I'd like to receive it sooner than December but I'll cope with the wait.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: WhizzBang 02 June, 2013, 07:26:35 AM
I am highly likely to order this but I wouldn´t be surprised if a just a short while later a cheaper Rebellion standard edition is also released for those who missed this.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 02 June, 2013, 01:58:07 PM
I am highly likely to order this but I wouldn´t be surprised if a just a short while later a cheaper Rebellion standard edition is also released for those who missed this.

I guess if it was going to happen then maybe we'd know by the time these editions are posted?
In that any legal things might have come out by then.
There's certainly the market for it.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Adventurer 03 June, 2013, 12:43:17 AM
It's typical operating procedure for publishers to not announce paperback plans while pushing a limited edition HC. As it might impact the HC sales.

I'd hope we'd see a standard non-limited edition paperback (+digital) edition within a year of the HC release. As that would be fair.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 04 June, 2013, 04:30:08 PM
Steve Yeowell makes some very guarded comments to questions from The Beat.

http://comicsbeat.com/zenith-artist-steve-yeowell-talks-about-contracts-and-grant-morrison/ (http://comicsbeat.com/zenith-artist-steve-yeowell-talks-about-contracts-and-grant-morrison/)

The good news is he's drawing a DeMarco series with Mike Carroll (alas in the Meg so another trade wait for me)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 04 June, 2013, 04:58:39 PM
It just seems matter of fact to me rather than guarded.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 04 June, 2013, 05:19:14 PM
It's typical operating procedure for publishers to not announce paperback plans while pushing a limited edition HC. As it might impact the HC sales.

I'd hope we'd see a standard non-limited edition paperback (+digital) edition within a year of the HC release. As that would be fair.

Most certainly for any normal book you'd expect it. Is it just the ABC Warriors Volgan books that are only in hardback atm? I can't remember. It's just the legal issues that could hold paperback/digital copies of Zenith back I suppose and maybe that is pretty much an unknown until it actually happens (so when the product is shipped in December) as taking orders is one thing, actually sending product is the thing that could instigate legal action. Or maybe it'll all go through fine with no issues, there will be paperback versions by next summer and everyone can finally get what they wanted? That would be nice.


I'm angling more towards paying for the limited edition now. Better that than paying the £39.99 for the Phase 1 Rebellion book on Ebay atm that I keep pondering (for completeness, I have the original GN's of course)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 04 June, 2013, 05:32:34 PM

Steve Yeowell:  as it was always the plan that Zenith’s story would be complete in four phases, more is unlikely (The Beat (http://comicsbeat.com/zenith-artist-steve-yeowell-talks-about-contracts-and-grant-morrison/), 2012)

Grant Morrison: I like the idea that Zenith's a character who ages alongside me in his own little world. I can always go back and do Zenith at 50 or 70, which should be fun. (Thrillpower Overload, p216, 2009)

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 04 June, 2013, 07:45:57 PM
Is it just the ABC Warriors Volgan books that are only in hardback atm?

That'd be Slaine: The Books of Invasions & Carnival, I think.  Right creative team though!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 04 June, 2013, 07:53:25 PM
Thanks, I'm quite behind on the Slaine books, gone for all the others varied ones (Mean Team, Ten Seconders) more recently before them.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: strontium71 04 June, 2013, 08:37:07 PM
Just realised that the order date is the day after the 50% shop voucher expires...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Buttonman 04 June, 2013, 08:47:52 PM
Just realised that the order date is the day after the 50% shop voucher expires...

He may look green but Tharg ain't that green at all!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 04 June, 2013, 08:50:03 PM
Well you couldn't use it on the Termight edition for the same reason ;)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Enigmatic Dr X 04 June, 2013, 09:19:19 PM
Well you couldn't use it on the Termight edition for the same reason ;)

You could, you know, just not for 50%
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 04 June, 2013, 09:49:15 PM
Wasn't it you could on the normal and not the special edition?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: I, Cosh 04 June, 2013, 10:06:04 PM
Wasn't it you could on the normal and not the special edition?
That's what I thought. I'll be irked if I was wrong.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: robert_ellis 04 June, 2013, 10:12:26 PM
What can we expect from THE COMPLETE ZENITH? Well phase I is 81 pages, Whitlock and Payne add 10 more. phase II is longer at 93 pages. The non Steve Yeowell Maximan and Mandela annual/special stories add 16 more pages. Phase III is a whopping 133 pages of inter dimensional warfare. Mark miller pops in for a 6 page barely Zenith related (although good fun) text story Tales of Alternate Earths. Phase IV adds 82 pages. ZZzenith is 8 pages of craziness plus the 1 page from a night 2 remember. This gets us to 430 pages plus 3 star scans, 17 covers from 2000ad and the 2 best of covers. Perhaps the Titan reprint covers and the odd datafile and the odd pin up. I'd seriously love it if Steve Yeowell could redraw the 2 stories he didn't illustrate. Did I miss anything? Putting COMPLETE on a cover is a serious boast!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Trout 04 June, 2013, 10:24:49 PM
What can we expect from THE COMPLETE ZENITH? Well phase I is 81 pages, Whitlock and Payne add 10 more. phase II is longer at 93 pages. The non Steve Yeowell Maximan and Mandela annual/special stories add 16 more pages. Phase III is a whopping 133 pages of inter dimensional warfare. Mark miller pops in for a 6 page barely Zenith related (although good fun) text story Tales of Alternate Earths. Phase IV adds 82 pages. ZZzenith is 8 pages of craziness plus the 1 page from a night 2 remember. This gets us to 430 pages plus 3 star scans, 17 covers from 2000ad and the 2 best of covers. Perhaps the Titan reprint covers and the odd datafile and the odd pin up. I'd seriously love it if Steve Yeowell could redraw the 2 stories he didn't illustrate. Did I miss anything? Putting COMPLETE on a cover is a serious boast!

I'd pay £100 for that!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 04 June, 2013, 10:25:47 PM
Second! Complete is complete.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: robert_ellis 04 June, 2013, 10:33:33 PM
Please put this in....
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Buttonman 04 June, 2013, 10:37:52 PM
Don't want to break an embargo here but the following images could well be included if completeness is to mean fan art and quality is not an issue...

(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c118/button71/CRADLE.jpg)

(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c118/button71/zenith-1.jpg)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 04 June, 2013, 11:10:55 PM
What can we expect from THE COMPLETE ZENITH? Well phase I is 81 pages, Whitlock and Payne add 10 more. phase II is longer at 93 pages. The non Steve Yeowell Maximan and Mandela annual/special stories add 16 more pages. Phase III is a whopping 133 pages of inter dimensional warfare. Mark miller pops in for a 6 page barely Zenith related (although good fun) text story Tales of Alternate Earths. Phase IV adds 82 pages. ZZzenith is 8 pages of craziness plus the 1 page from a night 2 remember. This gets us to 430 pages plus 3 star scans, 17 covers from 2000ad and the 2 best of covers. Perhaps the Titan reprint covers and the odd datafile and the odd pin up. I'd seriously love it if Steve Yeowell could redraw the 2 stories he didn't illustrate. Did I miss anything? Putting COMPLETE on a cover is a serious boast!

Nicely done, Sir.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mikey 05 June, 2013, 10:07:03 AM
Agreed. If I snag it, I might have the original progs up for grabs at not unreasonable rates.

M.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: James 05 June, 2013, 09:46:52 PM
What can we expect from THE COMPLETE ZENITH? Well phase I is 81 pages, Whitlock and Payne add 10 more. phase II is longer at 93 pages. The non Steve Yeowell Maximan and Mandela annual/special stories add 16 more pages. Phase III is a whopping 133 pages of inter dimensional warfare. Mark miller pops in for a 6 page barely Zenith related (although good fun) text story Tales of Alternate Earths. Phase IV adds 82 pages. ZZzenith is 8 pages of craziness plus the 1 page from a night 2 remember. This gets us to 430 pages plus 3 star scans, 17 covers from 2000ad and the 2 best of covers. Perhaps the Titan reprint covers and the odd datafile and the odd pin up. I'd seriously love it if Steve Yeowell could redraw the 2 stories he didn't illustrate. Did I miss anything? Putting COMPLETE on a cover is a serious boast!

On top of Yeowell redrawing the stuff he didn't originally draw (is his older style please), I would love to see the whole thing presented in black and white line if the original films are still available. And a T-shirt.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 05 June, 2013, 09:53:42 PM
Yeowell redrawing somebody else's strips would be a travesty, and also a waste of his talents.

The only way to do this book - and indeed the way I am sure it will be done - is with complete fidelity to the original material.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: robert_ellis 05 June, 2013, 10:36:04 PM
I'd usually agree with you. Many strips have changed artists and I've enjoyed seeing the strengths of different interpretations - particularly nemesis the warlock or Slaine. Zenith is a different kettle of fish since Steve yeowell drew 99% of it and was too busy to do the extra stories. I mean no disrespect to Jim McCarthy and Carmona but I'd love to see what yeowell would have come up with from the same Grant Morrison script. An I the only one?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 06 June, 2013, 12:52:16 AM
Nope. My ideal Zenith collection also has him redraw those two stories, along with having a black and white plate for the colour page of Phase I and somehow reverting Phase IV to colour. The annual/special stories would be included in their original forms as extras, perhaps two pages per page.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 06 June, 2013, 01:05:02 AM


Nope. My ideal Zenith collection also has him redraw those two stories, along with having a black and white plate for the colour page of Phase I and somehow reverting Phase IV to colour. The annual/special stories would be included in their original forms as extras, perhaps two pages per page.


You should do a Kickstarter...

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Trout 06 June, 2013, 01:07:50 AM
But you'd need a time machine. Every artist's style evolves over time, so Yeowell now is not Yeowell back then. I'm not keen on seeing things redrawn. It happened as it happened and we should accept it.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 06 June, 2013, 07:19:13 AM
But you'd need a time machine. Every artist's style evolves over time, so Yeowell now is not Yeowell back then. I'm not keen on seeing things redrawn. It happened as it happened and we should accept it.

Words of wisdom.

Yeowell did a great job on Zenith, and I love his work, but I have no desire to see him redraw the two interludes or indeed the covers he didn't do. Nor do I wish for Morrison to rewrite the text story Mark Millar contributed.

I can understand why it might be nice for to have a single artist throughout, but that's not quite how it happened and the last thing Zenith needs is Lucasification.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 06 June, 2013, 08:32:57 AM
Agreed. Also redrawing the McCarthy cover would be the work of a heathen.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: matty_ae 06 June, 2013, 08:52:20 AM
 :D The McCarthy cover is half-traced off Steve Yeowell anyway.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 06 June, 2013, 08:54:00 AM
The McCarthy cover is half-traced off Steve Yeowell anyway.

It's a photocopy and Yeowell is credited.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 06 June, 2013, 08:55:42 AM
Well bugger me, that's something I didn't know. :)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 06 June, 2013, 10:03:54 AM
I can understand why it might be nice for to have a single artist throughout, but that's not quite how it happened and the last thing Zenith needs is Lucasification.

Absolutely, it is what it is.  Perversely I do wish they'd sort out the arseways dates at the start of Phase 1!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 06 June, 2013, 10:51:24 AM
the last thing Zenith needs is Lucasification
Horses for courses. I'd prefer (if there were infinite production money, which there isn't) to have a book where one page of Phase I doesn't stick out like a sore thumb, due to a historical quirk of 2000 AD where Zenith once got the back page. I'd prefer to have Phase IV in black and white, like it should have been, rather than with murky watercolours that were solely added because everything in 2000 AD had to be in colour at that point. On the non-Yeowell stories, I actually like the annual one (not the special one), but I'd still prefer the coherence of all-Yeowell. As for Lucasification, it worked well for The Invisibles, for one, and also one of the Sláine trades.

It's all immaterial anyway, because this fantasy version of the book won't (and probably, more importantly, can't) happen. We'll get whatever was in the comics as-is, hopefully in top-notch repro.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 06 June, 2013, 11:34:54 AM
What have they done to 'The Invisibles'? I replaced my original comics with the MAHUSIVE omnibus but haven't read it yet...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: matty_ae 06 June, 2013, 12:01:13 PM
(from Wikipedia)
Issues #4-2 included artistic collaborators who did not illustrate Morrison's scripts precisely as written. The most notable examples were the three pages Ashley Wood drew in Vol. 3, #2 that were later redrawn by Cameron Stewart for The Invisible Kingdom trade paperback.



: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 06 June, 2013, 12:45:15 PM
Frankly, the redrawn stuff wasn't great, but it at least helped you make more sense of what was going on. (Less helpfully, DC inexplicably cut a couple of pages from the collections.)

EDIT: SPOILER ALERT There's an overview of three amended pages on Comic Vine (http://www.comicvine.com/the-invisibles-volume-three-2-the-invisible-kingdo/4000-51819/). Clearly, do NOT go there unless you've already read The Invisibles, because this is right near the end of the entire run.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 06 June, 2013, 01:24:14 PM
Fascinating! And surprising that DC would go to the time and expense of doing something like that...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: matty_ae 06 June, 2013, 02:59:31 PM
Obviously 'Lucasfilmification' is meant as a derogatory change but not all tinkering is bad.

I loved Brian Bollands re-colouring of Killing Joke and felt he had the right to do it. So if Steve Yeowell felt strongly he didn't do those scripts because of time, he should have a go. If alternatively he passed because one was a treading water recap and the other bizarre Alice in Wonderland tosh, he may have passed originally. Certainly Annuals and Special felt like the home of sub standard strips in those days so you have to suspect the latter.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Trout 06 June, 2013, 04:07:33 PM
Frankly, the redrawn stuff wasn't great, but it at least helped you make more sense of what was going on. (Less helpfully, DC inexplicably cut a couple of pages from the collections.)

EDIT: SPOILER ALERT There's an overview of three amended pages on Comic Vine (http://www.comicvine.com/the-invisibles-volume-three-2-the-invisible-kingdo/4000-51819/). Clearly, do NOT go there unless you've already read The Invisibles, because this is right near the end of the entire run.

Let's sum that up without spoilers: in the original comic version, the artist ignored the script. This was crucial because one of the pages involved was the big reveal, the massive plot twist that came after years and years of build-up. It was a very silly thing to do.

The art was redone so that readers could understand what was going on. The first version had been unfit for purpose so a new artist was brought in.

Other than in such an extreme case, I'm very much against redoing art. IMO we should accept what was done and represent it faithfully. There have been examples of bits of comics being revisited because their creators were unhappy - the recoloured Flex Mentallo is a good example - but I am very nervous about that idea. Creative people tend to... fuss. Where would it all end?

- Trout
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Patrick 06 June, 2013, 04:14:50 PM
I'd have to say that Zenith Phase 4 is the only time I've seen anyone (other than Steve himself) colour Steve Yeowell successfully. Apart from the prologue, which Gina Hart did in her usual modelled style, she laid down flat colours that fit perfectly, and otherwise got out of the way. I say leave it as it is.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 06 June, 2013, 08:17:16 PM
Obviously 'Lucasfilmification' is meant as a derogatory change but not all tinkering is bad.

I loved Brian Bollands re-colouring of Killing Joke and felt he had the right to do it. So if Steve Yeowell felt strongly he didn't do those scripts because of time, he should have a go. If alternatively he passed because one was a treading water recap and the other bizarre Alice in Wonderland tosh, he may have passed originally. Certainly Annuals and Special felt like the home of sub standard strips in those days so you have to suspect the latter.

I prefer John Higgins' colouring on Killing Joke. The best I can say for the deluxe edition is that the re-colouring doesn't mess up the genius of the writing and artwork too much.

Should Steve Yeowell wants to redraw those interludes (and Rebellion want to pay him to do it) then good luck to him, but it's really not necessary and it's not going to improve the collection by any noticeable degree.

However, if I had any revisionist tendencies (which I don't), I would be more interested in seeing zzzenith.com redone to be a proper Zenith story that actually made sense.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dark Jimbo 06 June, 2013, 08:24:04 PM
However, if I had any revisionist tendencies (which I don't), I would be more interested in seeing zzzenith.com redone to be a proper Zenith story that actually made sense.

That remains my only encounter with the character, and I've never been quite so bemused (and stuggled to see what the fuss was about).

I don't mind little changes like this when it's sensitive and in the material's best interests - like the omission of the unecsessary Dredd intro pages from the Al's Baby collection; Clint Langley's tweaking of the ABC art for the graphic novel format; the re-lettering of the start of Defoe book II for the graphic novel, etc.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 06 June, 2013, 08:27:19 PM

That remains my only encounter with the character, and I've never been quite so bemused (and stuggled to see what the fuss was about).

As far as I can make out, it was some sort of parody.

However, ignore it, the real Zenith was totally different, and awesome.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Adrian Bamforth 06 June, 2013, 08:31:30 PM
John Higgins' colouring was far better for me as well: Its neon hues conveyed the flashing lights, claustrophobia and madness of the fairground, and the heat of the city streets, while Bolland's colouring was more or less literal, with a black-and-white device for flashbacks. However, having had my own work coloured, I also know what it's like to have someone else let loose on your work and come back with something entirely different from what you envisioned.
: Re: Re: The Complete Zenith
: sheldipez 06 June, 2013, 08:57:04 PM
Feel like I have to stick up for Bolland's recolouring. It doesn't feel like I'm reading on acid any more and makes the comic less of its time like the subtle recolouring on Year One. IMO. I do own/ like both though!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: jabish 07 June, 2013, 12:45:30 AM
I'd love to see Phase IV in B&W. I was so disappointed to open the prog the week it started to see it in colour.

WHo knows. Maybe?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: O Lucky Stevie! 07 June, 2013, 03:42:50 AM
What can we expect from THE COMPLETE ZENITH? Well phase I is 81 pages, Whitlock and Payne add 10 more. phase II is longer at 93 pages. The non Steve Yeowell Maximan and Mandela annual/special stories add 16 more pages. Phase III is a whopping 133 pages of inter dimensional warfare. Mark miller pops in for a 6 page barely Zenith related (although good fun) text story Tales of Alternate Earths. Phase IV adds 82 pages. ZZzenith is 8 pages of craziness plus the 1 page from a night 2 remember. This gets us to 430 pages plus 3 star scans, 17 covers from 2000ad and the 2 best of covers. Perhaps the Titan reprint covers and the odd datafile and the odd pin up. I'd seriously love it if Steve Yeowell could redraw the 2 stories he didn't illustrate. Did I miss anything? Putting COMPLETE on a cover is a serious boast!

I'd pay £100 for that!

Same here.

& anyone who isn't prepared to do so could try requesting it at their local library.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 07 June, 2013, 10:49:37 AM
As far as I can make out, it was some sort of parody.
It didn't really seem a parody to me—more meta-commentary on the ’00s in much the same way Zentith was a commentary on the ’80s and ’90s, along with a dollop of satire. There's also a pretty interesting line in there about the story being a mass hallucination engineered in the macro-mind of a super-telepath, and so where is this Zenith happening? Is it inside Chimera, or has Sir Peter simply 'won' and is he now in control?[/quote] I also took that last line to be beautifully ambiguous—either a dark, horrible ending of the worst kind or merely a comment on vacuous and repetitious modern mass-market consumer culture.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: robert_ellis 07 June, 2013, 01:32:35 PM
It did feature Britney Spears being sexually assaulted by Robot Archie.
I can see how that could seem like parody.
It was pretty good for the page count. And lovely to see Steve Yeowell recreate Zenith in a different style
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 07 June, 2013, 01:40:37 PM
I must declare a pretty much total aversion to anything penned by GM from the time of zzzenith.com.

As far as I am concerned he was great on Zenith and Dare, then started working for American publishers and went right off the boil. I do understand his change in style was popular in some quarters, but I basically do not like anything he's done since Batman Gothic.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 07 June, 2013, 01:48:40 PM
& anyone who isn't prepared to do so could try requesting it at their local library.

You'd be lucky if your library is able to buy anything that isn't from a central purchasing system these days, so get hoping for the paperback version!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: robert_ellis 07 June, 2013, 02:23:10 PM
I wish more writers could go off the boil and still write Flex Mentallo, We3, the Invisibles, New X-Men and All Star Superman. Not every Morrison projects strikes gold but I think he really tries hard to push the medium and not repeat himself. I don't think he could ever be accused of treading water as a writer. I too have great affection his Animal Man and Doom Patrol days but I think its very strange to dismiss his work since then.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: sheldipez 07 June, 2013, 02:54:43 PM
I wish more writers could go off the boil and still write Flex Mentallo, We3, the Invisibles, New X-Men and All Star Superman. Not every Morrison projects strikes gold but I think he really tries hard to push the medium and not repeat himself. I don't think he could ever be accused of treading water as a writer. I too have great affection his Animal Man and Doom Patrol days but I think its very strange to dismiss his work since then.

If only more writers would take the risk and think outside of the box, not everything he does manages to hit the target dead on but it's always a helluva ride. Though you could argue that he's the only allowed to do this because he's Grant Morrison.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 07 June, 2013, 03:36:46 PM
I wish more writers could go off the boil and still write Flex Mentallo, We3, the Invisibles, New X-Men and All Star Superman. Not every Morrison projects strikes gold but I think he really tries hard to push the medium and not repeat himself. I don't think he could ever be accused of treading water as a writer. I too have great affection his Animal Man and Doom Patrol days but I think its very strange to dismiss his work since then.

I haven't read Flex, found We3 to be a horribly under-written artist's showcase, couldn't make it through Invisibles, haven't read and have no interest in New X-Men, but I have read every page of All Star Superman and I hated it with a passion.

So basically I have had a few good goes at more modern Morrison, but it's definitely not for me. Still, maybe one day it will click. I did used to have similar feeling about Pat Mills but then he turned me round with Requiem and I now get on okay with most of his stuff, with the honourable exception of his Third World War-era dip.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Link Prime 07 June, 2013, 04:23:36 PM
I found his (long) stint on JLA to be his most accessible mainstream stuff...a very cohesive story for such a large cast.
'Rock of Ages' still does it for me every time I re-read it.

(Hated 'Final Crisis' though!)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Richmond Clements 07 June, 2013, 07:10:17 PM
I have read every page of All Star Superman and I hated it with a passion.

 :o You're weird..!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Daveycandlish 07 June, 2013, 07:21:15 PM
I'm with JBA block here. I read Flex and We3 and the first half of All Star Superman and none of them grab me in the same way as Zenith does
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 07 June, 2013, 07:23:35 PM
:o You're weird..!

I loved Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, though.

However, I think I prefer Zenith to Miracle/Marvelman.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: dweezil2 07 June, 2013, 07:25:25 PM
I don't really do "capes" but I loved Flex Mentallo and We3. Particularly We3, which I found very moving and powerful.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 07 June, 2013, 07:47:32 PM
Anyone read Next Wave?  I got a big Tooth vibe from that, not your regulare super lark.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Richmond Clements 07 June, 2013, 07:48:24 PM
:o You're weird..!

I loved Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, though.



That was Alan Moore..!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 07 June, 2013, 07:58:18 PM
That was Alan Moore..!

My point exactly.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 07 June, 2013, 08:02:44 PM
Anyone read Next Wave?  I got a big Tooth vibe from that, not your regulare super lark.

As in 'Agents of H.A.T.E.' by Warren Ellis? Loved it!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 07 June, 2013, 08:04:34 PM
Thats the one Hippy. Great little series wasn't it.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Rio De Fideldo 08 June, 2013, 11:09:11 PM
So based on the countdown clock the collection will be on sale from 6 pm on the 1st July. Tea might be late that night.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: O Lucky Stevie! 09 June, 2013, 03:00:36 AM
Which is exactly when it works out at in Central Auxtralian Time.

You in Adelaide, Alice Springs or Darwin, Richard?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Rio De Fideldo 09 June, 2013, 11:17:56 AM
Nope Driffield, East Yorkshire.

So is 6pm GMT on Monday 1st July when it goes on sale as the countdown clock seems to imply? (Mine is showing 22 days 6 hours and 42 mins to go and its currently 11.18 on Sunday 9th June)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 09 June, 2013, 02:05:24 PM
I agree it is counting down to 18:00 BST on July 1st. Bit weird.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Richmond Clements 09 June, 2013, 07:03:23 PM
That was Alan Moore..!

My point exactly.

I appear to have missed it then...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: moly 09 June, 2013, 07:32:12 PM
Would love to buy this, but couldn't justify £100. To the mrs, I tried though lol
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mark Taylor 10 June, 2013, 02:22:06 PM
Would love to buy this, but couldn't justify £100. To the mrs, I tried though lol

There is always a way. Women can always justify what they want. £100 pair of shoes? "I need them!". Jeez it costs them upwards of £60 just to get a haircut. Us men need stuff like this the same way women need shoes and haircuts (and handbags and makeup and ridiculously priced cosmetics of all varieties), they just have us fooled into thinking their need is greater than ours. Don't fall for it.

£100 is very little in the scheme of things. Spending an extra £100 won't make you homeless, get your car reposessed or condemn you to poverty in retirement. If anything you might need to be a little tight with the food budget for a month or two. That's it. It's probably worth it.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 10 June, 2013, 10:53:09 PM
And with that, Mr. Taylor, you have just made me £100 poorer. Come 1st anyway. :lol:
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 11 June, 2013, 08:25:58 AM
Come 1st anyway. :lol:

It's not a race darling.  Think of it more like synchronised swimming.  This at least would explain the horrid rictus the wife affects when relations are scheduled. 
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 11 June, 2013, 08:32:28 AM
Come the 1st of July anyway. :lol:

It's not a race darling.  Think of it more like synchronised swimming.  This at least would explain the horrid rictus the wife affects when relations are scheduled.
FMQFY. ;) And don't call me darling, it's all a bit sudden, sir!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: newschmoo 11 June, 2013, 11:34:33 AM
Forgive me if this ones already been covered, but what does 'a never-to-be-repeated format' actually mean ? Its never being reprinted in any form again, or never in hardback again ? I'll feel ripped off if i pay £100 then the paperback's announced next year.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 11 June, 2013, 12:18:44 PM
Like it says, 'format'.  This content won't appear in exactly this format again: i.e. this type of limited run deluxe hardback (although other deluxe/HB types remain a possibility).  The content, the complete Zenith, almost certainly will appear in another lesser format in the nearish future.  £100,000 might sound like nice bit of cake, but the scanning and collating and fiddling has been done, and there's gold in them there bytes!

At least I hope so.  I also hope I receive some fantabulous windfall between now and the end of the month, but not, please note oh ye Fates and Gods above, a windfall derived from a fatality, insurance claim or other disaster related source.  If that's what on your minds, Nice Ladies, I'll hang on for the paperback.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: robert_ellis 11 June, 2013, 12:21:37 PM
Of course there'll be a paperback edition at some point assuming no legal wrangles. But are you willing to chance it? I'd imagine that each phase will come out as seperate softcover so you'll be paying £50 - £60 for all 4. Does the hardback seem so bad?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mark Taylor 11 June, 2013, 02:30:51 PM
I'd imagine that each phase will come out as seperate softcover so you'll be paying £50 - £60 for all 4. Does the hardback seem so bad?

Or it might come out as a single fat 'case files' style volume at around £20 - which you could probably then pick up from Amazon for around £15 or less... then all those who bought the hardback but don't care about the format will wind up feeling a little queasy.

Chances, chances... roll the dice. ;)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: radiator 11 June, 2013, 02:40:43 PM
Or it might come out as a single fat 'case files' style volume at around £20

I highly doubt that - I would expect at least two such books - the second one in colour so would be more expensive.

I would also expect Rebellion to regard Zenith as somewhat valuable - not something to put out put it out as quickly and cheaply as possible, so that's why I would expect four separate books - maybe hardbacks.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mattofthespurs 11 June, 2013, 02:42:26 PM
Would love to buy this, but couldn't justify £100. To the mrs, I tried though lol



£100 is very little in the scheme of things. S

If only that were true
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 11 June, 2013, 02:43:14 PM

Or it might come out as a single fat 'case files' style volume at around £20 - which you could probably then pick up from Amazon for around £15 or less... then all those who bought the hardback but don't care about the format will wind up feeling a little queasy.

Chances, chances... roll the dice. ;)

That would be all black & white, too, which some would find preferable to the mixed colour and monochrome of the originals.

My guess would be that there'll be 4 individual paperbacks if Rebellion are able to do them, but anyone waiting for cheaper options is taking a big risk that they won't appear for years, if at all.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: HdE 11 June, 2013, 06:02:24 PM
Well, today I decided I want it. So I'll fight the rest of you for a copy on the 1st.

May the best 1,000 men win!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 11 June, 2013, 06:09:22 PM
Be prepared for the shop to crash...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mark Taylor 11 June, 2013, 06:51:35 PM
£100 is very little in the scheme of things. S

If only that were true

Obviously circumstances vary. I will say though that my wife is unable to work for medical reasons and doesn't receive any benefits for reasons I won't go into. I do a full time job in which I earn, admittedly, significantly more than minimum wage. But it's still less than double minimum wage. So looking at it that way, my wife and I each survive on less than minimum wage - and I still stand by the above, for our (less than salubrious) circumstances. YMMV.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mattofthespurs 11 June, 2013, 07:45:00 PM
£100 is very little in the scheme of things. S

If only that were true

Obviously circumstances vary. I will say though that my wife is unable to work for medical reasons and doesn't receive any benefits for reasons I won't go into. I do a full time job in which I earn, admittedly, significantly more than minimum wage. But it's still less than double minimum wage. So looking at it that way, my wife and I each survive on less than minimum wage - and I still stand by the above, for our (less than salubrious) circumstances. YMMV.

And I'll, maybe, go one better.
My Wife earns significantly better than minimum wage. However I am the full time primary carer of a precocious Son that deserves a better school than he is getting. This costs money but is worth it. More worth it than a book.
Our major luxury outlay is Sky Sports each month. We love our sports. Zenith is about 6 months of this subscription. Should I be selfish and demand that we drop it for six months?
Our food bill is made up of 'every day' items from Tesco. We are scrapping the barrel there and being creative.
Simply put I do not have £100 to spend on a book without compromising the lifestyle of my child and Wife, which is something I will not do.

Yes, circumstances differ but don't, for an instance, think that £100 is justified in any or every household.

I sincerely wish it were but it's not.

There endeth the moan  ;)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: matty_ae 11 June, 2013, 07:55:13 PM
No one has yet mentioned the warehouse full of phase 1 that were printed in 2002.
Presuming they've not been pulped any business would sell them next and print 2,3 and 4 thereafter.
It is worth stating that rebellion have got further than this before and then held back.
I suspect that these hb will come out but they'll be some comment from GM lawyers between now and Dec.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: robert_ellis 11 June, 2013, 07:57:34 PM
What you could be getting for £100...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PEtyu7r2RDw&feature=plcp
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Adrian Bamforth 11 June, 2013, 08:53:53 PM
Anyone want to buy a tatty copy of Miracleman Book 1? Price is... er... £100.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Trout 12 June, 2013, 03:24:02 AM
There are some terribly heartbreaking tales of woe on this thread. Oh, wait, I just remembered: it's only a fucking book!

 :lol:
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mark Taylor 12 June, 2013, 08:35:24 AM
And I'll, maybe, go one better.

I'd call it one worse, at least financially speaking. I admire the sacrifice you are making for your son, however.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mark Taylor 12 June, 2013, 08:38:36 AM
What you could be getting for £100...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PEtyu7r2RDw&feature=plcp

I'd prefer an official look at what we'd actually be getting...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 12 June, 2013, 09:29:02 AM
There are some terribly heartbreaking tales of woe on this thread. Oh, wait, I just remembered: it's only a fucking book!

I agree; producing a book everyone could afford would be communism. Since we're being treated to everyone's best impressions of Little Nell and Oliver Twist anyway,  we should all club together to buy one of the wretched tomes and give it away to whoever treats this thread to the tale of tears which most palpitates the gland which produces the milk of human kindness. The only question would be what to call our contest ...

(http://gaminghell.co.uk/images/jdreddottosumpcomic.jpg)

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 12 June, 2013, 09:42:55 AM
Cardboard box?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 12 June, 2013, 10:00:38 AM
Cardboard box?

Big fish, little fish ... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgzS18Vktm0)

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 12 June, 2013, 10:22:51 AM
No, really, thank you so very much for reminding me of that one Bikini Snowden.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 12 June, 2013, 11:18:50 AM
No, really, thank you so very much for reminding me of that one Bikini Snowden.

Bikini Snowdon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrWK_43iEWs)

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 12 June, 2013, 11:29:16 AM
I appreciate that there's nothing in the forum guidelines about it, but this whole "changing your posting name and avatar every three posts" thing you've started doing is really fucking irritating.

Bah.

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Molch-R 12 June, 2013, 12:19:09 PM
Right, the clock on the front of the website should *finally* be showing the correct time...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Steve Green 12 June, 2013, 01:16:25 PM
You should have changed it so it read as 2 weeks ago, and they were all sold out.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: I, Cosh 12 June, 2013, 01:18:53 PM
Right, the clock on the front of the website should *finally* be showing the correct time...
Still saying 19 days, 4 hours, 42 minutes here. At 13:18.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Molch-R 12 June, 2013, 01:34:33 PM
Yep, that's right. Wasn't correct for people in other time zones, mind.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 12 June, 2013, 01:46:16 PM
Wasn't correct for people in other time zones, mind.

Fuck 'em. They should live in a proper country.

Cheers!

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mark Taylor 12 June, 2013, 02:15:15 PM
There are some terribly heartbreaking tales of woe on this thread. Oh, wait, I just remembered: it's only a fucking book!

I agree; producing a book everyone could afford would be communism. Since we're being treated to everyone's best impressions of Little Nell and Oliver Twist anyway,  we should all club together to buy one of the wretched tomes and give it away to whoever treats this thread to the tale of tears which most palpitates the gland which produces the milk of human kindness. The only question would be what to call our contest ...

(http://gaminghell.co.uk/images/jdreddottosumpcomic.jpg)

Hilarious, but you'll note my point was I CAN afford the damn book.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mattofthespurs 12 June, 2013, 05:19:02 PM
And I'll, maybe, go one better.

I'd call it one worse, at least financially speaking. I admire the sacrifice you are making for your son, however.

Cheers.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Max Headroom 16 June, 2013, 06:30:05 PM
Just wanted to ask anyone who is familiar with the story: is it any good? And is it worth one hundred pounds? I'm tempted to try and get my order in come July 1st, but just can't decide...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Richmond Clements 17 June, 2013, 01:57:14 PM
Just wanted to ask anyone who is familiar with the story: is it any good? And is it worth one hundred pounds? I'm tempted to try and get my order in come July 1st, but just can't decide...

Yes it is very good.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: I, Cosh 17 June, 2013, 02:19:15 PM
Just wanted to ask anyone who is familiar with the story: is it any good? And is it worth one hundred pounds? I'm tempted to try and get my order in come July 1st, but just can't decide...
Is it any good? I'd say it's the second best story 2000AD's ever printed.

Is it worth the money? Hard to say. It seems like it's going to be a pretty nice volume but, given that you could probably pick up all the original Progs on eBay for £10-£20, it comes down to whether you think the value is in the package or the content.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 17 June, 2013, 04:33:05 PM

Is it any good? I'd say it's the second best story 2000AD's ever printed.


Which begs the potentially derailing question which is the best?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 17 June, 2013, 05:20:37 PM
Dash Decent, obv.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: I, Cosh 17 June, 2013, 05:25:08 PM
Dash Decent, obv.
Pfft. Bonjo from Beyond the Stars I think you'll find.

I was actually thinking of Firekind, although I probably prefer Dante as a whole too.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 17 June, 2013, 05:36:01 PM
Is it any good? I'd say it's the second best story 2000AD's ever printed. Is it worth the money? Hard to say. It seems like it's going to be a pretty nice volume but, given that you could probably pick up all the original Progs on eBay for £10-£20, it comes down to whether you think the value is in the package or the content.

That seems like a good summary of the situation.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Recrewt 18 June, 2013, 02:34:09 PM
I am sure that Rebellion will put the necessary into this partciular release to justify the price but to me - no, its not worth it - even if it was the best story 2000ad ever printed. 

Rebellion have done fantastic work of late with the case files and such and it really does seem like we have never had it so good with access to older material.  But, comics are created to be read - pure and simple -  and ignoring the ownership debate that surrounds this, it will be an absolute shame if this is all we get for Zenith.  Something like this is fine for those already familiar with the story and collectors but is your average 16 year old going to drop a ton to have this? 

In an ideal world we would have a paperback version that probably comes in at about 20 - 25 quid tops.  It would be nice to see a time where Zenith is as accessible as something like Watchmen - just because something is good, doesn't mean it should be restricted!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 18 June, 2013, 02:42:09 PM

In an ideal world we would have a paperback version that probably comes in at about 20 - 25 quid tops.  It would be nice to see a time where Zenith is as accessible as something like Watchmen - just because something is good, doesn't mean it should be restricted!

If it can happen I'm sure it will and if it doesn't it won't be because Rebellion don't want it so.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 18 June, 2013, 03:52:55 PM
Aye, if Rebellion's history has shown us anything, it's that they will publish the popular stuff in as many sizes, formats and editions as Betelgeusianly possible.  How many copies of Judge Death Lives does the average squaxx own these days anyway?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 18 June, 2013, 04:09:25 PM
Bit harsh. Maybe I'm missing some, but I recall (in terms of Rebellion-originated UK editions):

- Dredd vs Death (part of the DC tie-up, 2005)
- Dredd Case Files 3 (2006)
- The Dark Judges b-format book (2012)

Three books in eight years, one of which was in part driven by what DC wanted to publish, one of which is part of a series readers had been clamouring for since the 1980s, and one of which is a pocket book designed to expand Dredd's audience.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 18 June, 2013, 04:14:13 PM
Bit harsh.

I wasn't being harsh, I was singing their praises!  It's a good thing!  Bolland for everyone, on any budget! 

Oh internet, wherefore is thy I'm-not-being-sarcastic smiley?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 18 June, 2013, 04:15:16 PM
Bit harsh.

Against a backdrop of numerous earlier reprints, but I wasn't being harsh, I was singing their praises!  It's a good thing!  Bolland for everyone, on any budget! 

Oh internet, wherefore is thy I'm-not-being-sarcastic smiley?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 18 June, 2013, 04:15:41 PM
EDIT BUTTON PLEASE
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 18 June, 2013, 04:43:58 PM
EDIT BUTTON PLEASE

I get a "Modify" button.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 18 June, 2013, 04:44:47 PM
...but not in this section of the forum. Odd.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 18 June, 2013, 04:56:33 PM
I wasn't being harsh, I was singing their praises!  It's a good thing!  Bolland for everyone, on any budget!
Ah, right. Apologies. There's so much grumbling about formats/trades/etc. here that I misread your comment similarly.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mardroid 18 June, 2013, 04:56:41 PM
Something like this is fine for those already familiar with the story and collectors but is your average 16 year old going to drop a ton to have this?
It's not aimed at them though. It's aimed at those who frequent the site, mainly 30 plus guys who grew up reading these stories.

Technically that doesn't include me either (although I'm sure Rebellion would happily take my money, and ;) ) as I'm well in the age bracket but I'm a relative newbie to the prog as I only started reading a few years ago. So I haven't read any Zenith. I'm intrigued and I would like to pickup a collection, but not at that price.

If these 1000 copies all sell well and quickly I reckon paperback collections in our price bracket will be published though as others have said.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mardroid 18 June, 2013, 05:00:24 PM
Argh! Extra 'and' before the smiley. Silly android predictive typing software tries to be too clever.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 18 June, 2013, 05:08:17 PM
I wasn't being harsh, I was singing their praises!  It's a good thing!  Bolland for everyone, on any budget!
Ah, right. Apologies. There's so much grumbling about formats/trades/etc. here that I misread your comment similarly.

No apologies necessary, that's exactly how it read!  For the record my position is that no-one is forcing anyone to buy this stuff, not even Burdis, so the more formats and editions the wider the potential audience, as long as it makes enough coppers to keep Tharg on Earth.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mabs 19 June, 2013, 02:52:38 AM
I was quite interested in getting a copy.....and then I saw the price! Damn. That is a bit steep if you ask me, as much as I love my comics...... :(
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: O Lucky Stevie! 19 June, 2013, 03:34:34 AM
Right, the clock on the front of the website should *finally* be showing the correct time...

Which makes it 2:30am Tuesday Central Ausxtralian Time.

Rightyo.

Stevie's swound up the alarm clock...

Be prepared for the shop to crash...

...& informed his manager that he will be unavailable for work later that day.

Just in case.  ;)
: Re: Re: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Noisybast 19 June, 2013, 08:00:32 AM
It's not aimed at them though. It's aimed at those who frequent the site, mainly 30 plus guys who grew up reading these stories.

I'm a 30 plus guy.
I grew up reading these stories.
Much as I'd love to have Zenith on my bookshelf, this release is not aimed at me.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Large48 19 June, 2013, 09:00:33 AM
Am I the only one that though Zenith was a bit pony?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 19 June, 2013, 10:23:00 AM
Am I the only one that though Zenith was a bit pony?

I lost interest somewhere during Phase Three, but I think that was mostly due to the way the story was published in what seemed like four episode chunks, several months apart, and the fact that it was obviously trading on being a burlesque of the huge superhero crossover stories I hadn't read, still haven't read, and have no interest in reading. I really enjoyed all the other phases, and Phase Three reads much better in one sitting.

I'm going to sound really stupid, but it wasn't until the Crisis On Infinite Earths shenanigans of the third story that it dawned on me that Zenith was a superhero story. The use of the tropes of WWII familiar from countless UK British boys comics, the occult references, the seamless interweaving of UK pop culture and politics into the narrative, Morrison's fetish for the sixties, the sense of humour; I enjoyed all those things more, and they seemed more important to what made the story work, than the fact the title character wore a domino mask and could fly (sometimes, depending on his biorhythms).

 
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dash Decent 19 June, 2013, 01:33:37 PM
Dash Decent, obv.

Seconded!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 19 June, 2013, 02:43:59 PM
Am I the only one that though Zenith was a bit pony?

Looks like you've saved yourself a hundred
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 19 June, 2013, 02:44:59 PM
... quid.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4irVuZamOhA/TEJIFxuK-PI/AAAAAAAACTg/nn9O74AlID4/s1600/Zenith+003.jpg)

;)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Patrick 19 June, 2013, 07:13:28 PM
I lost interest somewhere during Phase Three, but I think that was mostly due to the way the story was published in what seemed like four episode chunks, several months apart, and the fact that it was obviously trading on being a burlesque of the huge superhero crossover stories I hadn't read, still haven't read, and have no interest in reading. I really enjoyed all the other phases, and Phase Three reads much better in one sitting.

Yeah, but Phase 3 did have the attraction of watching Steve Yeowell progressively dismantle not only his own drawing style, but almost the fundamentals of drawing comics. Here's a black shape, here's a white shape, forever dancing on the very edge of making sense. He hasn't done anything nearly so exciting since.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: robert_ellis 20 June, 2013, 08:59:59 AM
His odd DOOM PATROL issue came close but you're right Phase III looks amazing.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 20 June, 2013, 09:13:16 AM
i thought the hollow-earth-dinosaurs sequence of Red Seas came close to the level of Phase III - in places Yeowell conveyed vast spaces, fortifications and armies of giant beasts with a couple of lines and blocks.  It's very impressive.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 20 June, 2013, 02:28:21 PM



Creators Take Sides Over Zenith (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/06/20/creators-take-sides-over-zenith/)

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: radiator 20 June, 2013, 02:31:52 PM
Hmm, BC are really trying to stir up some trouble over this, aren't they?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 20 June, 2013, 02:33:53 PM



Slow news day. It's this or 'lost' Dr. Who episodes.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: radiator 20 June, 2013, 03:11:57 PM
Just realised that I'll be on holiday when this goes on sale. Reckon I'll be able to order via the internet on my phone?

(if I decide to, I'm still undecided).
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 20 June, 2013, 03:14:12 PM
Wow. So not content with essentially running with "as I understand it", which is astonishingly shaky from a legal standpoint (not to mention potentially misleading and inaccurate), we get:

- Bloke dumped on my 2000 AD in the past says THIS IS V BAD, OK?
- Bloke still writing loads for 2000 AD says NO, ACTUALLY, IT IS OK!

Stellar reporting.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Recrewt 20 June, 2013, 03:48:25 PM
It gets better, Ian Edginton left a comment:

"Actually Jim, Rich hasn't spoken to me or, to my knowledge Pete Hogan at all. He's just lifted a chat we were having straight off Facebook. Would've been nice if he asked first but then again, it would have meant that Pete and I weren't 'creator's taking sides' but just a couple of blokes having a chat about comics. Where's the fun in that tho' eh?"
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 20 June, 2013, 03:57:34 PM
Bleeding Cool can be a bad, bad place.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 20 June, 2013, 04:02:29 PM
Bleeding Cool are on a bad run. First the Doctor Who hoax, and now this.

Assuming Hogan actually meant what he said, A 2000AD boycott would be weird. This isn't an ethical dispute, but an apparently inactive disagreement over missing paperwork.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Richmond Clements 20 June, 2013, 04:02:30 PM
It gets better, Ian Edginton left a comment:

"Actually Jim, Rich hasn't spoken to me or, to my knowledge Pete Hogan at all. He's just lifted a chat we were having straight off Facebook. Would've been nice if he asked first but then again, it would have meant that Pete and I weren't 'creator's taking sides' but just a couple of blokes having a chat about comics. Where's the fun in that tho' eh?"

Haha! Priceless!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Monarch 20 June, 2013, 05:46:10 PM
Rich johnston is a scum sucking lying hypocritical piece of crap....

and in other news the sky is blue
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Patrick 20 June, 2013, 07:34:35 PM
i thought the hollow-earth-dinosaurs sequence of Red Seas came close to the level of Phase III - in places Yeowell conveyed vast spaces, fortifications and armies of giant beasts with a couple of lines and blocks.  It's very impressive.

Oh yeah, no criticism of his current work intended. He's a fantastic artist who really knows how to pick his lines. But he's a mature artist now. Zenith phases 2-3 were his experimental period, his creative adolescence if you like, when he loosened up and branched out and found his own voice, and there's something particularly exciting about watching that happen.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 20 June, 2013, 09:44:07 PM
Phase 3 did have the attraction of watching Steve Yeowell progressively dismantle not only his own drawing style, but almost the fundamentals of drawing comics. Here's a black shape, here's a white shape, forever dancing on the very edge of making sense. He hasn't done anything nearly so exciting since.

i thought the hollow-earth-dinosaurs sequence of Red Seas came close to the level of Phase III - in places Yeowell conveyed vast spaces, fortifications and armies of giant beasts with a couple of lines and blocks.  It's very impressive.

Oh yeah, no criticism of his current work intended. He's a fantastic artist who really knows how to pick his lines. But he's a mature artist now. Zenith phases 2-3 were his experimental period, his creative adolescence if you like, when he loosened up and branched out and found his own voice, and there's something particularly exciting about watching that happen.

I think Yeowell's one of the greatest artists 2000ad's ever produced, and I'd enthusiastically endorse Patrick's description of Phase III as the purest expression of what makes him so fantastic. The few years following that career-defining work that Yeowell spent trying to accommodate the strictures of US comics had a detrimental effect on his art; all those open lines and suggestion give way to something more quotidian, constrained and lightweight when Daniel Vozzo needs lines to be closed up so he can colour inside them.

Looking at zzzenith.com again recently, I was struck by how quickly Yeowell's art regained the impressive darkness, weight and expressiveness of his best work on the strip once he was letting rip in monochrome once more, and to this day he's your man if you're after depicting the formless, infinite horror of something that can only exist in the imagination. The book's worth reading for Yeowell's extraordinary art alone.


(http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/zenith-limited-edition-2000ad-morrison-yeowell-02.jpg)

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 20 June, 2013, 11:22:14 PM
I've said this more than once before, but I think the scene in Phase 2 (excerpt by Sauchie above) where Zenith kills his poor old Dad is the one of the best choreographed fight scene in comics - a real masterpiece.  In fact the whole of Phase 2 is packed with treats - such a simple story on the face of it, but with the most marvellous subtleties played out in the art.  The single shot of Robert's expression where he's seated with his back to Peyne as he monologues completely changes our perception of his character. 
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Professor Bear 20 June, 2013, 11:39:52 PM
It gets better, Ian Edginton left a comment:

"Actually Jim, Rich hasn't spoken to me or, to my knowledge Pete Hogan at all. He's just lifted a chat we were having straight off Facebook. Would've been nice if he asked first but then again, it would have meant that Pete and I weren't 'creator's taking sides' but just a couple of blokes having a chat about comics. Where's the fun in that tho' eh?"

I'm not defending Rich Johnson here because I am unaware of what "The Beefs" may be, but public comments left on a social networking site for all to see might arguably be fair game for reporting.

A 2000ad boycott would be a weird thing to see.  The fact that such a thing existed would surely just attract more attention to the book's marginal profile?  Going by the attempted boycotts of things like DC's Nu52 and Marvel's Avengers Arena that just resulted in more publicity, I think we should try and get one going for our own shameless corporate rag - if nothing else, the debate about creators having their characters stolen by companies might help Hogan shift some of those new Tom Strong comics he's writing for DC.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Trout 21 June, 2013, 03:33:01 AM
I remember when this thread was all people complaining they didn't have £100.  ;)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 21 June, 2013, 06:52:04 AM
I'm not defending Rich Johnson here because I am unaware of what "The Beefs" may be, but public comments left on a social networking site for all to see might arguably be fair game for reporting.

That is unarguable. What's reprehensible is the failure to cite the source and the changing of context by the way they're presented.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 21 June, 2013, 10:05:37 AM
That is unarguable. What's reprehensible is the failure to cite the source and the changing of context by the way they're presented.
This. I regularly pull content for the web for news I write. What I absolutely do not do is avoid also reporting the source and change the context. Johnson's article is an exercise in deception, inferring (although not stating—he's clearly too smart for that from a legal standpoint) that the site itself got comments from the creators. Although firing out rumour as news does him no favours, and could be detrimental to all parties involved.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Professor Bear 21 June, 2013, 06:31:31 PM
I cede that it's muckraking (I believe the coined phrase specific to the web is "click bait") and I do hear where you're both coming from, but I don't really view it as much different from what many other comics commentary sites do.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 21 June, 2013, 06:42:35 PM
I cede that it's muckraking (I believe the coined phrase specific to the web is "click bait") and I do hear where you're both coming from, but I don't really view it as much different from what many other comics commentary sites do.

The bad man said a bad thing about the good people.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 23 June, 2013, 05:52:36 PM
Long piece by Laura Sneddon...

http://comicsbeat.com/mad-mental-crazy-the-true-life-of-the-fabulous-zenith/

Unfortunately as we shall see, the publisher has a habit of not hiring back those who challenge for rights...

That's one extraordinary statement right there, and in no way supported by what follows in the piece.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 23 June, 2013, 06:07:34 PM
"In Part 2 next week we’ll look at the other creators who have challenged for or recovered their rights, and how or if their cases differed"

The inference is that part's yet to be published. Certainly, part one has nothing about this, bar Moore going off in a strop.

I do feel with this piece there's more than a hint of agenda (which, to be fair, Sneddon admits to), but this didn't sit easily with me:

Do note that no mention of actual signed contracts is made anywhere – that’s not damning in itself of course, but its worth pointing out all the same.

How often do comics creators talk contracts? More to the point, how often did they in 1987?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 23 June, 2013, 06:32:17 PM
The inference is that part's yet to be published. Certainly, part one has nothing about this, bar Moore going off in a strop.

I thought that too, but I think it might have been useful to explain that 2000AD (and by extension Zenith) is no longer published by IPC/Fleetway: in that context, what was the point of the statement "the publisher has a habit of not hiring back those who challenge for rights"?  Are we really going to see evidence of a Rebellion blacklist in future installments? And seeing as we almost certainly aren't, isn't that a bit disingenuous?

Even the 'evidence' presented (so far) re: Fleetway/IPC was creators not wanting to work for a company who didn't cede rights, rather than the publisher not wanting to hire them after a rights claim.  And being realistic, why would any company want to re-hire someone who would subsequently be contesting the terms of their standard contract (implicit or otherwise, fair or otherwise)?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: GordonR 23 June, 2013, 07:18:44 PM
Off the top of my head, I can think of only two creators who mounted legal challenges to the 2000AD's work-for-hire use of their creations. These were Mark Millar and Hilary Robinson, and both instances happened in when the title was under the ownership of Egmont Fleetway. One of them was successful, one of them was not.

Neither of them have worked for the title since, but I don't think that's anything to do with a blacklisting policy. Mark's enormously successful elsewhere, and doesn't need to, and Hilary Robinson's work was - frankly - just awful.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: M.I.K. 23 June, 2013, 08:23:34 PM
and Hilary Robinson's work was - frankly - just awful.

I don't think she was as bad as a lot of people make out, she just wasn't very 2000ad.

Loads of folk seemed to like Medivac 318 in spite of the giant talking rabbits, I quite liked Zippy Couriers, (though it was a bit 'girly'), Chronos Carnival was childish twaddle, but in retrospect would probably have been better suited to the '80s Eagle or suchlike and Survivor was a more coherent story than the original Mean Team was. I didn't think much of most of her future shocks, but didn't she write that really freaky one with the reclusive actress from the 1920s on a boat?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 23 June, 2013, 08:54:56 PM

Another vote for 'frankly awful' here. She was no worse than some of the others making up the numbers at that time, but that's not saying much. Fleischer, Mackenzie, Millar and Brosnan might all have done work which contained some individual interesting ideas or good lines during the time when they were drafted in to fill the Wagner, Grant and Mills shaped hole in the comic, but they're still fighting it out between themselves for the title of the very worst hacks to take up space in 2000ad.

'Frankly awful' sums up that whole period when, within the space of a year, the comic went from being something I pored over again and again each week to something I had to force myself to struggle through.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Professor Bear 23 June, 2013, 09:25:05 PM
I liked Medivac, and I'm not just saying that because the alternative take on the material was the abominable Mercy Heights.  Survivor, too, and Zippy Couriers - all strips that came from trying to create worlds and characters rather than delivery methods for the next soundbite or rehashed action movie plot.  I suppose in that respect, Robinson certainly didn't fit in the 200ad that was around the corner at that time.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 23 June, 2013, 09:39:09 PM
Long piece by Laura Sneddon...

http://comicsbeat.com/mad-mental-crazy-the-true-life-of-the-fabulous-zenith/


Cheers for the interesting read. The Morrison quotes there regarding the collected editions of Zenith do appear to confirm that he knew exactly what terms he was producing the work under. That doesn't affect the validity of any legal challenge, but it does illuminate his actions.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Spikes 23 June, 2013, 09:57:52 PM
Yes, a good read that. And nice to see Brendan's art again, for this.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 23 June, 2013, 10:06:28 PM
A fascinating read but "... a damp squid"! F'fuck's sake!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Montynero 24 June, 2013, 08:21:51 AM
Well researched article, that.

I do find Grant's behavior in this case difficult to understand. The contract for creating Zenith was clear: 'You get paid a page rate, you don't own the rights!' Pretending that wasn't the case a years later seems...strange.

All I'm saying is  - If you aren't happy with the terms of a deal, don't enter into it. And if you're happy to enter into it, don't moan about it later. I'm sure he was grateful for the money at the time and it was a huge stepping stone for him as a writer, unlocking the door to better deals with other companies.

But what do I know. There's probably something I'm missing.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dandontdare 24 June, 2013, 08:33:52 AM
The contract for creating Zenith was clear: 'You get paid a page rate, you don't own the rights!'

I think the point is that there was no contract.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Richmond Clements 24 June, 2013, 08:40:18 AM
The contract for creating Zenith was clear: 'You get paid a page rate, you don't own the rights!'

I think the point is that there was no contract.

Yeah, but he would have known that it was common practice with this publisher that this was the case.
I cannot imagine any creator going into this thinking at the time they still retained the rights to the work.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 24 June, 2013, 08:42:22 AM
I think the point is that there was no contract.

I think Montynero's point* is that 2000AD did not — and never had — offered a creator-owned deal, so the terms of the job, paperwork or no, were abundantly clear when Grant took it.

I don't recall ever being sent a contract for 'The Inspectre'… Kev may have been sent one, in which case it would be theoretically possible to disentangle which bits of it he created, which I created and assert that my parts of the story, at least, belong to me.

But it was a work-for-hire job. I knew that when I took it. I cashed the cheques. If, at any time, I had been unhappy with the work-for-hire terms, I could have walked away from the job.

Cheers

Jim

*Not that he isn't entirely capable of speaking for himself, obviously!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Montynero 24 June, 2013, 08:45:49 AM
It's 'missing paperwork' isn't it, Dan?  Anyway, the point I'm making is he knew the terms and pretending otherwise later is silly.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: PreacherCain 24 June, 2013, 09:00:41 AM
It's 'missing paperwork' isn't it, Dan?  Anyway, the point I'm making is he knew the terms and pretending otherwise later is silly.

My understanding is that Morrison did understand the terms but the burden of proof is on 2000AD/Rebellion. They lost/never had a contract. So Morrison can - for whatever reasons - retroactively lay claim to co-owning the character and having a say where, when and how it is published. The fact that there's no contract to prove anything one way or the other is an opportunity for him to own the character which, I imagine, most creators would be happy to do, particularly those in his current position.

The problem 2000AD has that, if they cop to that, then the field is wide open for everyone else to do the same.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Montynero 24 June, 2013, 09:16:20 AM
Yeah, that's a good summary from Preacher Cain. But just because you technically can do something, doesn't make it right. I don't personally approve of that kind of practice, whether it's from a company or an individual.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 24 June, 2013, 09:19:48 AM
I find it all a big underhanded. I'm all for the rights of creators, but, as a writer myself, I know the deals I get into when I make them. I've had huge swathes of my work repurposed into those bloody great 'bookazines' you see in WHSmith, for which I never receive a penny, nor even a free copy. But I knew the terms when I signed up. For several publishers, I've never signed a contact, but I still wouldn't attempt many years later to do what Morrison's doing.

Of course, Morrison has several points in his favour:

- He's hugely successful;
- He no longer needs 2000 AD nor seemingly wants to write for it again;
- His work (regardless of era) remains in much demand.

But the entire thing stinks of loophole. Also, while Moore is again wheeled out in that article to make grumbling noises, it's not like 2000 AD's practices at the time were taking some kind of uniquely anti-writer stance. Sure, some magazines (like Warrior) were better (from the creators’  standpoints) with rights, but 2000 AD's rights retention was—indeed, still is—the default.

I'm certainly interested to see what Sneddon comes up with in part two. I respect her as a writer, and I do hope her friendship with Morrison and overt biases in this particular article don't end up derailing things. There's already more than a whiff of agenda in part one, and some statements that will need some serious backing up, along with, as noted by someone else, the 'publisher' point, which seems a little disingenuous.

Mark Millar and Hilary Robinson […] Neither of them have worked for the title since, but I don't think that's anything to do with a blacklisting policy. Mark's enormously successful elsewhere, and doesn't need to, and Hilary Robinson's work was - frankly - just awful.
This is certainly the bit I'm interested in. I hope Sneddon doesn't conflate people feeling they can't work for 2000 AD again with people being blacklisted, or even pissing off the editorial team with people being actually blacklisted by a corporation. (As for Robinson, I also liked some of her stuff, notably Medivac 318. Curious, though, that the ownership/rights legal spat happened during McKenzie's tenure, what with 'Sonny Steelgrave', 'Roxilla', etc.)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Richard 24 June, 2013, 03:41:43 PM
A contract doesn't have to be in writing with all of the terms written down on a piece of paper. It can be verbal and the terms can be implied as well as express. The standard working practice of an industry or of a particular company can be implied into a contract's terms without being spelled out in full at the time. If 2000AD's normal policy was to pay a fee and keep the rights then that would apply to Grant Morrison and legally bind him whether he signed something or not. He's just trying it on.

Incidentally, he wrote a Zenith one-off around 2000 or 2001, years after the original series finished, so if he thinks he got such a raw deal at the time then why did he come back and work for them again all that time later?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 24 June, 2013, 03:54:00 PM
A contract doesn't have to be in writing with all of the terms written down on a piece of paper. It can be verbal and the terms can be implied as well as express.

I rather thought UK copyright law expressly places the rights with the creators unless a third party can produce a piece of paper with the creators' signatures assigning rights to the other party.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Patrick 24 June, 2013, 04:04:08 PM
Indeed, as I've posted before from the Intellectual Property Office (http://www.ipo.gov.uk/c-essential.pdf)

When you ask or commission another person or organisation to create a copyright work for you, the first legal owner is the person that created the work and not you the commissioner, unless you otherwise agree in writing. However, in some circumstances, for example when copyright is not dealt with in the contract to commission the work, Courts may be willing to find there is an implied licence from the contractor to the commissioner so that the commissioner is able to use the work for the purpose for which it was commissioned. That does not necessarily result in a transfer of ownership. Instead, the company commissioning the work may only get a limited non-exclusive licence. This situation demonstrates the importance of establishing who owns copyright through a contract.

And this is legislation - i.e. written law passed by parliment. As far as I know, if there's a conflict between legislation and established custom and practice, legislation wins.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Richard 24 June, 2013, 04:11:44 PM
Thanks, I hadn't realised that copyright law overruled normal contract law.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Patrick 24 June, 2013, 04:19:25 PM
Another site I've found, contractsandagreements.co.uk (http://www.contractsandagreements.co.uk/law-and-verbal-agreements.html), says that verbal contracts are usually valid, but:

There are certain contracts and agreements that must be made in writing and these will include the sale of property, tenancy agreements, copyright transfer, and contracts for consumer credit.[/blockquote]

If Morrison signed a docket of the sort the Beat article talks about, I think that would probably count as a written contract.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Link Prime 24 June, 2013, 04:45:01 PM

Incidentally, he wrote a Zenith one-off around 2000 or 2001, years after the original series finished, so if he thinks he got such a raw deal at the time then why did he come back and work for them again all that time later?

I mentioned this before, and wonder what exactly was established in this particular case.
This one-off story was published in Prog 2001, by which time Rebellion owned 2000AD. What was the agreed contract in this case?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 26 June, 2013, 12:20:20 PM
I was just sent this in a E-mail.....
 
The limited edition hardback book
 will only be available from the 2000 AD
online shop. Restricted to 1,000 copies,
 it will be available for pre-order at 6pm BST
(1pm EDT, 9am EST) on 1st July


Is that 6pm in on the 1St of July in Britain?
 
.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 26 June, 2013, 12:25:12 PM
Yup!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 26 June, 2013, 12:31:38 PM
Now I was resisting this, I simply don't have 100 quid to spend on stories I already have BUT this tiny wee picture on the 2000ad e-mail

(http://gallery.mailchimp.com/a6e40236aa24d482cfff600d2/images/zenithad.1.jpg)

got me so excited... or that really needs to be jealous of you folk who will be getting it... I won't... oh no I won't... defo.... defo not getting this...

...defo...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 26 June, 2013, 12:32:57 PM
Does look lovely :)
Brings it to home more than just talking about it ;)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 26 June, 2013, 12:34:17 PM
Blast you college computers! I will have to wait till I get home to see this little tit bit. >:(
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 26 June, 2013, 12:49:59 PM
Uh just seen the shadow too, cute!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 26 June, 2013, 01:48:48 PM
Just thought of something else. How much is the shipping going to be?
Was first thinking of it being very high for the US customers as obviously the time is so we and they have a chance but with customs and shipping it's going to be even more expensive for them, but also more for us as well.

I wonder how quickly they will sell out.Is it going to be a battle to get one or something that will drag out for a while?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 26 June, 2013, 01:51:11 PM
(http://gallery.mailchimp.com/a6e40236aa24d482cfff600d2/images/zenithad.1.jpg)

got me so excited... or that really needs to be jealous of you folk who will be getting it... I won't... oh no I won't... defo.... defo not getting this...

...defo...


...and it floats off the ground too!

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 26 June, 2013, 02:00:41 PM
Uh just seen the shadow too, cute!

I hadn't spotted that! Lovely touch...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: radiator 26 June, 2013, 02:04:07 PM
Just thought of something else. How much is the shipping going to be?

Hmmm. I would hope that UK shipping at least is included. £100 is really pushing it as it is. If it goes above that I may have to pass.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 26 June, 2013, 02:56:13 PM
Well the limited edition Nemesis book had a shipping cost of £5.99 so it's probably going to be that or more I'd guess. Not sure how the changes with the Royal Mail or whatever courier they use would make that different with the larger sizes Zenith book but I can't imagine shipping being included. Never has done before from anything I've bought from the 2000ad shop (and I forget about it every time, and when buying from FP) from what I remember but it is understandable, we are spoiled by Amazon.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Montynero 26 June, 2013, 06:26:21 PM
Beautiful piece of design. Truly special.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mark Taylor 26 June, 2013, 07:35:07 PM
Now I was resisting this, I simply don't have 100 quid to spend on stories I already have BUT this tiny wee picture on the 2000ad e-mail

(http://gallery.mailchimp.com/a6e40236aa24d482cfff600d2/images/zenithad.1.jpg)

got me so excited... or that really needs to be jealous of you folk who will be getting it... I won't... oh no I won't... defo.... defo not getting this...

...defo...

Okay what other info is in the email please? I don't have it. I'm a subscriber but I probably ticked a "don't spam me" box or something... I usually do since I despise 99.99% of all spam. This could be an exception, however...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 26 June, 2013, 08:08:00 PM
Just seen it, wan't it, and I will have it's babies.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: maryanddavid 27 June, 2013, 12:36:13 AM
Interview with Steve Yeowell from 1988 here https://www.facebook.com/HiberniaComics?ref=hl (https://www.facebook.com/HiberniaComics?ref=hl) if anyone would like a peek.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Bat King 27 June, 2013, 01:56:24 AM
A few more details about the book have been released.

http://judgetutorsemple.wordpress.com/2013/06/27/july-1st-2012-is-z-day-according-to-2000ad/
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 27 June, 2013, 07:24:49 AM
Interview with Steve Yeowell from 1988 here https://www.facebook.com/HiberniaComics?ref=hl (https://www.facebook.com/HiberniaComics?ref=hl) if anyone would like a peek.

Cheers for that David. I can remember thinking at the time that the improbably square chins which characterised Yeowell's early work on Zenith reminded me of Alan Davis - now I know why. Good read, that.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 27 June, 2013, 07:41:51 AM
A few more details about the book have been released.

http://judgetutorsemple.wordpress.com/2013/06/27/july-1st-2012-is-z-day-according-to-2000ad/

So that's the same size as (just grabbed off the shelf) Robo-Hunter 2. Which is only 400 pages long according to Amazon.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 27 June, 2013, 09:40:20 AM
A few more details about the book have been released.

http://judgetutorsemple.wordpress.com/2013/06/27/july-1st-2012-is-z-day-according-to-2000ad/

So that's the same size as (just grabbed off the shelf) Robo-Hunter 2. Which is only 400 pages long according to Amazon.

That'd be the shiny paper making it skinny.  Gods but that looks luscious.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 27 June, 2013, 09:59:26 AM
It's not a flicking through book like the Case Files or Robo-Hunter is it ;)

I think it's the right size, better than having it the larger size of the recent IDW The Complete... books.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 27 June, 2013, 01:07:05 PM
Not that I'm buying it (I'm not, I'm not, I'm not...) if I did... which I'm not... I'd be a little disappointed that it seems to have US dimensions (at least height wise) rather than reproducing the art in its original size (as printed that is).

Hopefully that makes my resolve to resist all the stronger...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 27 June, 2013, 01:32:51 PM
That's exactly what I thought... Why go to the trouble of a complete hardcover collection and not produce it 'oversize' like the US Deluxe, Omnibus or Absolute edition...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: HdE 27 June, 2013, 03:11:58 PM
Aaaand, that's saved me a hundred quid.

I shall wait for the inevitable reprints now.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 27 June, 2013, 03:51:16 PM
The dimensions shifted me from "But the price..." to "Yeah, paperbacks please".
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 27 June, 2013, 04:19:15 PM
It is indeed very odd that this book is not oversized.

Perhaps Absolute Zenith is going to be limited to 500 copies and £200 a pop....
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: jabish 27 June, 2013, 06:18:45 PM
Ah shite I thought it would be Titan sized. Ah well.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Ancient Otter 27 June, 2013, 08:49:29 PM
Don't think anyone has posted this up yet: MAD MENTAL CRAZY! The True Life of the Fabulous Zenith. (http://comicsbeat.com/mad-mental-crazy-the-true-life-of-the-fabulous-zenith/) First part of a series about the history of the creation of Zenith and it's copyright struggles.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Richard 27 June, 2013, 10:49:22 PM
A few more details about the book have been released.
http://judgetutorsemple.wordpress.com/2013/06/27/july-1st-2012-is-z-day-according-to-2000ad/

This article lists all of the stories in the book, and the list omits the "Zenith Interlude" episodes. So unless the article is not accurate (hope so), it's not actually complete.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 27 June, 2013, 10:59:32 PM
Trade Descriptions act? ;)

Barring ABC hardbacks being the size it is means all the more recent Rebellion GN's are the same height doesn't it?

Has someone got a bookcase with non adjustable shelves perhaps?

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mark Taylor 27 June, 2013, 11:59:03 PM
The dimensions shifted me from "But the price..." to "Yeah, paperbacks please".

Yeah I'd made my mind up to go for it but if the dimensions and description are correct I've changed my mind. It's a nice volume, but far from £100 worth of nice.

Also, can't stand dust jackets. They just get in the way when reading and serve no purpose when not reading. Seriously, if your books get dusty on the shelf you just need to clean more often than, say, once a year. For a volume this pricey I want a slipcase or nothing at all. Got the hardback edition of Rian Hughes' "Yesterday's Tomorrows" and thought it was all the better for not having the ubiquitous dust jacket. I'd throw them away but that would only slash the resale values.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 28 June, 2013, 12:12:26 AM



I do prefer full picture-printed hardcovers myself.



: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 28 June, 2013, 08:23:38 AM
This article lists all of the stories in the book, and the list omits the "Zenith Interlude" episodes. So unless the article is not accurate (hope so), it's not actually complete.

Suspect the other interludes are all included, but not explicitly mentioned because they are Morrison/Yeowell efforts.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: matty_ae 28 June, 2013, 08:26:30 AM
Richard-

I dont think they are missing any interludes.
'Whitlock' and 'Peyne' were include in the second titan book and as they use their titling, I'm sure that's the case here.

Interestingly the 4th phase was meant to be called Jerusalem but no mention of that here.
So i thinks its exhaustive, if a relatively expensive case file.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mark Taylor 28 June, 2013, 08:40:56 AM
So i thinks its exhaustive, if a relatively expensive case file.

Relatively expensive, yes. You can pick up volumes 1 to 10 of the Judge Dredd Case Files on Amazon for slightly less. Alternatively you can pick up 7 or 8 volumes of the colour case files for about the same. A few of the B&W volumes are only, what, 80 pages short of the size of the complete Zenith. 160 for the colour ones. I appreciate the value of the Zenith material is perceived as being higher because the material has been unavailable for so long, but let's be realistic: The same can be said about a fair proportion of the material reprinted in Dredd's Case Files.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 28 June, 2013, 08:52:27 AM
I'm not sure if my vote counts here as I had decided as soon as the price was announced that I'd be skipping this, but I really like the look of the book.  I agree that dustjackets are just a PITA, but the cover design is lovely and while I love the Titan size in general I'm not sure I'd fancy wrestling with a 480-page hardback in those dimensions.  Even when I find considerabely thinner Absolute editions in the librar
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 28 June, 2013, 08:55:56 AM
...y ( ::)) I find them offputtingly uncomfortable to read, the very definition of coffee-table book. I like something I can read in bed, and I like that this would nestle on the shelf with the other casefiles rather than sticking out all over the place like my Lost Girls and Art of Watchmen.  That said, I'm not getting it, so it's all a bit moot.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ming 28 June, 2013, 09:49:06 AM
Don't think anyone has posted this up yet: MAD MENTAL CRAZY! The True Life of the Fabulous Zenith. (http://comicsbeat.com/mad-mental-crazy-the-true-life-of-the-fabulous-zenith/) First part of a series about the history of the creation of Zenith and it's copyright struggles.

Yup.

Long piece by Laura Sneddon...

http://comicsbeat.com/mad-mental-crazy-the-true-life-of-the-fabulous-zenith/

Is it July yet?  :)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 28 June, 2013, 09:53:30 AM
and I like that this would nestle on the shelf with the other casefiles rather than sticking out all over the place like my Lost Girls and Art of Watchmen.

Does look like that is the main factor which does kind of make sense. Thing is when the TPB version comes out at some point (as it hopefully will) it will be exactly the same size but without the hardback cover.
So really it's the gamble of it not being released or that it will be split into seperate books again in tpb maybe?

Mind you I'd totally forgotten again, we won't get this for a long time yet anyway will we even after ordering it on Monday.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 28 June, 2013, 09:53:51 AM
So we won't be able to judge for ages either.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 28 June, 2013, 10:29:01 AM
So we won't be able to judge for ages either.

As if that'd stop us!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 28 June, 2013, 10:32:35 AM
Just means we've got months more wondering, pondering and conjecture ahead of us! :)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 28 June, 2013, 10:34:44 AM
Thing is when the TPB version comes out at some point (as it hopefully will) it will be exactly the same size but without the hardback cover.
That makes the assumption that the same volume/format would be used. I imagine if Rebellion finds itself in a position to release Zenith in a more standard manner, we'll end up with four books, not one.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 28 June, 2013, 11:20:24 AM
Very likely. But then the release dates for multiple volumes might be over maybe a year, and if it's a year until the first one comes out after the limited edition volume comes out at the end of the you are talking about having to wait until Christmas 2015? before you'd have the complete Zenith collection. So £100 now sounds even more sensible!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: matty_ae 28 June, 2013, 12:34:59 PM
Quote:

"That makes the assumption that the same volume/format would be used. I imagine if Rebellion finds itself in a position to release Zenith in a more standard manner, we'll end up with four books, not one."

Interesting. Why? I dont think Rebellion publishing any other 80 - 120 page books any more and all those old ones like verdus etc seem to be low sellers. Also they'd have to generate new covers for each one. And they couldnt really pack them out with even more pin-ups as it would rather annoy previous buyers. I think this is most likely the only format sans hardback.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 28 June, 2013, 12:42:35 PM
I dont think Rebellion publishing any other 80 - 120 page books any more and all those old ones like verdus etc seem to be low sellers.

New Slaine and ABC Warriors ones are on average 130 pages, including extras, and they seem to sell okay.  They are, however, mostly full colour.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: radiator 28 June, 2013, 12:44:17 PM
Why?

Because they'd make more money from spacing it out over four glossy books at £13-20 a pop than they would selling a single Case Files type book at £20.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: matty_ae 28 June, 2013, 12:55:57 PM
They'd definitely have more books to sell.

Last time round books 4 & 5 were so unpopular Titan slashed them to 1.99 in in-house adverts.

Well i wish them well but i really think the art base on the US b&w comics looks too small so im out.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: radiator 28 June, 2013, 12:58:48 PM
Last time round books 4 & 5 were so unpopular Titan slashed them to 1.99 in in-house adverts.

What, like 25 years ago? When Grant Morrison was yet to become one of the biggest names in comics?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: matty_ae 28 June, 2013, 01:51:59 PM
Yes. My belief is that if they issued the books to an American market individually, the would get a diminishing uptake largey based on how short the books would be, that they are B&w and how oddly paced the story-telling is. The fractal narrative revealed in book 4 works brilliantly as a conclusion but on its own separated (as printed originally) it feels dour.

You may still be correct that rebellion see more profit in splitting them. Speculating is fun.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 28 June, 2013, 02:54:48 PM
I would be amazed if the paperback version didn't come out in four individual volumes.

Anyone hoping for a £20 complete Zenith hot on the heels of the hardback edition is being highly optimistic. Can't see Rebellion wanting to upset 1000 of their best customers by selling them a £100 hardback and then immediately rendering it a rip-off.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 28 June, 2013, 03:12:36 PM
Yes. My belief is that if they issued the books to an American market individually, the would get a diminishing uptake largey based on how short the books would be
Most US trades are around the same length. I don't see this as a problem. Also, Zenith has the potential in that format to be among the more popular classic books, like the Sláine stuff that's now going to new editions.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 28 June, 2013, 03:17:00 PM
Not long now:)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 28 June, 2013, 03:31:09 PM
Have I got the correct time in London here?

Friday, 28 June 2013 at 3:28:25 PM BST

Fuuny ,because I thought you guys in the UK were ahead od us in Australia by afe hours. Looks like your behind us as it's.....

12:30AM on the 29th right where I am now!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 28 June, 2013, 03:47:00 PM
Have I got the correct time in London here?

Friday, 28 June 2013 at 3:28:25 PM BST

Fuuny ,because I thought you guys in the UK were ahead od us in Australia by afe hours. Looks like your behind us as it's.....

12:30AM on the 29th right where I am now!

Yes, you had our time correct.

Australia is way ahead of GMT, whereas we are never more than an hour in front of it.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 28 June, 2013, 03:47:56 PM
Nope, the earth spins anti-clockwise and the dateline is mid-Pacific, so you lucky boys and girls get the sunrise first, then Asia, the Europe and Africa, then the Americas.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 28 June, 2013, 04:42:07 PM
Nope, the earth spins anti-clockwise and the dateline is mid-Pacific, so you lucky boys and girls get the sunrise first, then Asia, the Europe and Africa, then the Americas.

Interesting to know..... As it was only three days ago that I was monitoring American Standard date & time so I could be one of the first to secure a limited tier on this Kick-Starter (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-w20-changing-breeds?ref=live) within the first few minutes.  At around about 1:00 AM, Wednesday the 26th, Australian time. Which was 11:00 AM, Tuesday the 25th, American Time and thanks to a faulty internet browser. I was 10-15 minutes late in the early hours of the morning. Though, that didn't stop me from securing one of the limited tiers, and another limited tier half a hour later with a separate account. This going to cost me all about $655 in 26 days and another $15 with a small add on. Though, it will be worth it.

Thing is, I was under the impression, America was behind us in Australia and the U.K. was in front.

Though, oh well :o

I will be monitoring U.K. time very closely in another two days.

I don't want to miss out.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 28 June, 2013, 04:59:09 PM
Thing is, I was under the impression, America was behind us in Australia and the U.K. was in front.

You're wrecking my head, man!   :lol:

This is like every single skype conversation my mother has with my brother in Sydney:
"Is it Wednesday with you yet, love?".
"It's Thursday, Mam."
"But it's Wednesday here and it looks dark where you are".
"That's cos it's after midnight".
"On Thursday?".
"Yes.  I mean no.  Maggie, what bloody day is it?"
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 28 June, 2013, 05:45:45 PM
Thing is, I was under the impression, America was behind us in Australia and the U.K. was in front.

You're wrecking my head, man!   :lol:

This is like every single skype conversation my mother has with my brother in Sydney:
"Is it Wednesday with you yet, love?".
"It's Thursday, Mam."
"But it's Wednesday here and it looks dark where you are".
"That's cos it's after midnight".
"On Thursday?".
"Yes.  I mean no.  Maggie, what bloody day is it?"

Well, it has always appeared to that Australia is in the middle, with the U.K. on the left and the U.S.A. on the right :-\
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 28 June, 2013, 05:58:43 PM
Well, it has always appeared to that Australia is in the middle, with the U.K. on the left and the U.S.A. on the right :-\

You're not wrong, but some clever bugger decided that any given day would 'start' in the middle of the Pacific at roughly 180o longitude, meaning the Kiribata islands get daybreak first, then the rest of the western Pacific (inlcuding Oz), while the Aleutians and the eastern Pacific (including the west coast of the US) get it last.  The UK is at 0o (Greenwich meridian) longitide, and thus gets the 'new' day roughly in the middle (or about 11 hours after Queensland).
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mark Taylor 28 June, 2013, 07:10:51 PM
...I dont think Rebellion publishing any other 80 - 120 page books any more...

They certainly are. Ampney Crucis: Vile Bodies, Absalom: Ghosts of London, and Shako, to name three TPBs all released in the last 18 months or so and all three weighing in at under 100 pages.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dash Decent 28 June, 2013, 08:35:32 PM
Well, it has always appeared to that Australia is in the middle, with the U.K. on the left and the U.S.A. on the right :-\

That's because whatever country you live in prints their world maps with their country in the middle.

Thing is, I was under the impression, America was behind us in Australia and the U.K. was in front.

Here in Oz AEST is 10 hours ahead of GMT (or UTC).  Being British time, GMT is the real true time and all other places in the world are either ahead or behind, but not the real true time.  Amen.

If ever you want to check, just right click the PC clock in your system tray and pretend you're changing the time settings.  The time zone setting will remind you how far ahead of UTC we are.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dash Decent 28 June, 2013, 08:36:58 PM
Thing is, I was under the impression, America was behind us in Australia and the U.K. was in front.

You're wrecking my head, man!   :lol:

This is like every single skype conversation my mother has with my brother in Sydney:
"Is it Wednesday with you yet, love?".
"It's Thursday, Mam."
"But it's Wednesday here and it looks dark where you are".
"That's cos it's after midnight".
"On Thursday?".
"Yes.  I mean no.  Maggie, what bloody day is it?"

"No, you put the clocks forward and the trains back." : D
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dash Decent 28 June, 2013, 08:56:08 PM
it seems to have US dimensions (at least height wise) rather than reproducing the art in its original size (as printed that is).

Oh dear.  That's a big stumbling block.

So far the only resistance I've had is that we haven't heard much about how good the quality of the book is.  A book ribbon is nice but for that price I want to be assured it has sewn in sections and good quality paper and nice crisp reproduction.  For that price I was also expecting the dimensions to be correct, or at least a lot closer to the original size.  A volume to shelve next to the hardback Thrillpower Overload for example.

I got the magna-sized Rogue Trooper this week.  While squinting at the artwork, you can't help thinking how small it is, whilst noticing the huge amount of blank space above and below.  Of course there's no practical way of utilising it given the format and the dimensions it was originally designed to be published at but the Zenith book could've been any size.

I hope that when ordering is opened up in a few days time they publish a shot of the open book so every punter can get a fair idea of what it looks like before they order, rather than end up with deflated expectations later.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 28 June, 2013, 09:33:08 PM

I hope that when ordering is opened up in a few days time they publish a shot of the open book so every punter can get a fair idea of what it looks like before they order, rather than end up with deflated expectations later.

I don't really know about the time scales on these things, but would an actual copy exist yet? If it did I'm sure they'd show off how super it was. My guess is this ain't even printed yet?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dash Decent 28 June, 2013, 10:37:23 PM
There's a photo of the book floating around showing both the front cover and spine, so I assumed copies existed.  It could be a mock-up I suppose.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 28 June, 2013, 10:50:52 PM
There's also a shadow underneath it that I don't think is real either ;)

Probably mock ups or maybe 1-2 real trial versions for quality and printer decisions but as they won't be shipping them out till December 1st the 1000 can't exist yet. After all they'd have to have lots of loose cash floating around to have already paid for them now. They're taking our pre-order money and then getting them published surely?
If they weren't then theres no reason for the delay so they can't exist yet, can they?
Quick find the mysterious warehouse they are being stored in!! :P
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dash Decent 29 June, 2013, 12:24:28 AM
There's also a shadow underneath it that I don't think is real either ;)

That's neither here nor there.  You can take a photo of a real item, remove all the background to show it in isolation and add an effect to give it some lift.  A fake shadow doesn't automatically discount it from being real.

Probably mock ups or maybe 1-2 real trial versions for quality and printer decisions but as they won't be shipping them out till December 1st the 1000 can't exist yet. After all they'd have to have lots of loose cash floating around to have already paid for them now. They're taking our pre-order money and then getting them published surely?

Most definitely, but I had assumed there would be a sample copy or spread about they would use to show us some of before we buy, even if it only appeared on the webpage going up on 1st July.  I'll reserve judgement until then but as a customer I'm making them aware what I'd like to know/see in order to induce a purchase.  A decent sized quality reproduction is enough to make me buy, a blind buy is not.  It may be they want the extra time to get the best set of scans possible, but if so they need to say.  Caveat emptor.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 29 June, 2013, 02:54:12 PM
That's neither here nor there.  You can take a photo of a real item, remove all the background to show it in isolation and add an effect to give it some lift.  A fake shadow doesn't automatically discount it from being real.


Of course it doesn't. But this (http://instagram.com/p/bBw_m3zV49/) is saying it's not gone to print yet at the very least.


Most definitely, but I had assumed there would be a sample copy or spread about they would use to show us some of before we buy, even if it only appeared on the webpage going up on 1st July.

Which of course they might (still got time), but then I don't think we've seen any of the limited edition Nemesis  (just the very cool prints we'll be getting) yet either have we and that's sold out. Could be wrong though, I waited for a while to order that.
Of course what would be very cool would be something along the lines of that video of the self made volume someone posted from YouTube.


I'll reserve judgement until then but as a customer I'm making them aware what I'd like to know/see in order to induce a purchase.

Might be too late by then. There may well be enough people (as it's obviously aimed at US customers as well) to sell out really quickly anyway without needing to do anything else. There is no need for some people to see anything atall, they'd just buy it blind. And for some people the £100+ isn't an issue either.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Bolt-01 30 June, 2013, 08:15:57 AM
The Great Trade Robbery was originally planned for Zarjaz and would have been in the November issue, but events have conspired against us and so we present it here for you.

Words by the Emperor, astoundingly good art by newcomer to Zarjaz Jason Davies and letters by Bolt-01.

(http://www.futurequake.co.uk/imagebucket/Promo/TradeSwindleWeb01.jpg)
(http://www.futurequake.co.uk/imagebucket/Promo/TradeSwindleWeb02.jpg)
(http://www.futurequake.co.uk/imagebucket/Promo/TradeSwindleWeb03.jpg)
(http://www.futurequake.co.uk/imagebucket/Promo/TradeSwindleWeb04.jpg)
(http://www.futurequake.co.uk/imagebucket/Promo/TradeSwindleWeb05.jpg)
(http://www.futurequake.co.uk/imagebucket/Promo/TradeSwindleWeb06b.jpg)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: O Lucky Stevie! 30 June, 2013, 08:23:17 AM
Stak! Jaw to the floor brilliant.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Grant Goggans 30 June, 2013, 09:35:49 AM
*round of applause*

That is terrific!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 30 June, 2013, 09:45:33 AM
That's a lovely strip, and credit to Jason Davies for an amazing debut.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 30 June, 2013, 09:46:47 AM

That is fucking brilliant. I love the metafictional trap, and the incredibly assured art manages to throw in a few visual tropes from early Yeowell without ever looking like a pastiche. You might have shot your Bolt-01 too soon in pulling such a fantastic piece of work from publication; you would only have had to rewrite a few lines of dialogue to make it relevant to the current situation, where a book which has a street value of £100 and which certain parties might not want reaching the shops might or might not already be sitting waiting to be shipped out (see discussion above).

The Complete Zenith will be published at a time still to be determined by Heisenberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle) Press.

 
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: klute 30 June, 2013, 10:48:40 AM
Is there any indication on  how much the deposit is for the book or is it full price up front?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 30 June, 2013, 11:13:14 AM
Full price
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 30 June, 2013, 11:33:07 AM
The Great Trade Robbery was originally planned for Zarjaz and would have been in the November issue, but events have conspired against us and so we present it here for you. Words by the Emperor, astoundingly good art by newcomer to Zarjaz Jason Davies and letters by Bolt-01.

(http://www.futurequake.co.uk/imagebucket/Promo/TradeSwindleWeb01.jpg)
(http://www.futurequake.co.uk/imagebucket/Promo/TradeSwindleWeb02.jpg)
(http://www.futurequake.co.uk/imagebucket/Promo/TradeSwindleWeb03.jpg)
(http://www.futurequake.co.uk/imagebucket/Promo/TradeSwindleWeb04.jpg)
(http://www.futurequake.co.uk/imagebucket/Promo/TradeSwindleWeb05.jpg)
(http://www.futurequake.co.uk/imagebucket/Promo/TradeSwindleWeb06b.jpg)

Bump for the new page.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: strontium71 30 June, 2013, 01:51:30 PM
Is there any indication on  how much the deposit is for the book or is it full price up front?

Seeing as it's an expensive price , I reckon a non-returnable deposit of - say £25-30 - could have been been used to hold a copy by , and then the remaining amount payable in 6 months.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 30 June, 2013, 01:58:43 PM
Seeing as it's an expensive price , I reckon a non-returnable deposit of - say £25-30 - could have been been used to hold a copy by , and then the remaining amount payable in 6 months.

Depends on if they need the money to actually pay for it to be published. Balance of cost vs profit etc etc.
Again I suppose there is no need to offer a deposit when there might well be enough people willing to pay the £100 (plus shipping) up front.
We'll find out at 6pm tomorrow though of course :)
We could all be amazed by many details on the pre-order page. I bet a lot of people will be looking even if not buying.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: strontium71 30 June, 2013, 02:00:24 PM
But I wonder what'll happen if - highly unlikely - only a fraction of the amount sells?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 30 June, 2013, 02:16:40 PM
But I wonder what'll happen if - highly unlikely - only a fraction of the amount sells?

Yes that would be very interesting.
Especially if the shipping for the US market (plus customs) knocks back some potential customers there as well. Having it start at 6pm here is obviously catered to that market as well as us (I'll just stay at work longer as I couldn't get home in time).

I guess it's all been worked out but there is 5 months until they are due to be shipped so plenty of time to sell them if it came to it. Nemesis Limited edition took a while, but that was with a standard edition available as well of course, but also for less than half the cost. Must be 1000 for a reason.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 30 June, 2013, 02:55:28 PM
We could all be amazed by many details on the pre-order page. I bet a lot of people will be looking even if not buying.

Oh no no no, doing that could lead to temptation getting to critical mass!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 30 June, 2013, 07:03:58 PM
Can't call it complete now if that piece of red-hot genius isn't in it!  Brilliant work Zarjazzers, you guys are incredible.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Montynero 30 June, 2013, 08:45:27 PM
Truly Zarjaz, indeed. Won't be long till we see Jason Davies in the prog if he keeps on at this rate! :)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 30 June, 2013, 10:03:40 PM
Second part of Laura Sneddon's investigation into the facts of Zenith ownership.

http://comicsbeat.com/mad-mental-crazy-the-true-life-of-the-fabulous-zenith-part-2/ (http://comicsbeat.com/mad-mental-crazy-the-true-life-of-the-fabulous-zenith-part-2/)

A nice useful summary of things, with another part to come.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 30 June, 2013, 10:40:40 PM

Thanks, Colin; I'm shite at keeping up with blogs and that. I know all I had to do was bookmark part one of that series then remember to check in again in seven days time, but I can never seem to get round to doing so. That was a cheery walk down memory lane, particularly the stuff relating to The New Adventures of Hitler and Bible John - they might be due for a re-read.

Fascinating to see how long before publication Morrison was working on a version of (a very distant version of) the stories and characters we eventually saw in print. The Watchmen/Miracleman/Kirby/Siegel & Schuster aspects of those early takes on the material just emphasize the important role the ideas of Brendan McCarthy and Paradax in particular played in the development of Zenith.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Eric Plumrose 30 June, 2013, 10:59:32 PM
IIRC, David Lloyd's FANTASTIC ADVENTURE was something he proposed to IPC. So the contract Morrison didn't sign with 2000AD would have been the same contract he wouldn't have signed if FANTASTIC ADVENTURE hadn't have been passed up in favour of MASK, yes?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: O Lucky Stevie! 01 July, 2013, 05:17:40 AM
The Watchmen/Miracleman/Kirby/Siegel & Schuster aspects of those early takes on the material just emphasize the important role the ideas of Brendan McCarthy and Paradax in particular played in the development of Zenith.

Absolutely. Hands up everyone else who read that synopsis & went Hang on Grant, isn't that pretty much every book that you wrote for DC?  ;)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 01 July, 2013, 07:27:17 AM
Absolutely. Hands up everyone else who read that synopsis & went Hang on Grant, isn't that pretty much every book that you wrote for DC?  ;)

Ha! Aye, me too. Can't blame the kid for getting the most mileage possible out of second or third hand ideas.

It's the novel and distinctly British elements Morrison incorporated into the familiar framework that I enjoy; the parts where it reads like a strip from Warlord, the sequences where it's The Tomorrow People meet Antonioni,  how it's sometimes the same run through the pop and political culture of the late eighties you'd find in Deadline and Crisis at around the same time. What seems unique and valuable about Zenith to me is that it's somewhere the reactions of George Formby and Margaret Thatcher to the phenomenon of superhumans are considered more worthy of page time than how they affect the USA.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 01 July, 2013, 10:20:50 AM
All very interesting, and a tad more balanced in tone than the first part.  We've all been over the Alan McKenzie-not-issuing-contracts-to-Alan-McKenzie thing so often that's there no need to start that argument again, but I always find it interesting to note that Morrison explicitly retained copyright to Really & Truly and Big Dave, implying that he understood that this was not the case with his other work. 

Equally, as the McCarthyless version of Zenith clearly existed in Morrison's head/notebooks as a solid prospect with other possible homes long before he appeared in 2000AD*, would this not have made him far more conscious about the decision about handing the rights over (or not), and a far more signifcant factor in Grant's calculations than just cashing the cheque and assuming all was copacetic would imply? 


*Although how this differs from every long-mulled idea that every creative person harbours while looking for an outlet I'm not sure.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 01 July, 2013, 10:37:00 AM
All very interesting, and a tad more balanced in tone than the first part.
I disagree. If anything, I felt there was more misdirection/attempts to conflate various things in this piece than the first one. To be fair, Sneddon presented this as a piece with biases, and that's what we're getting.

We've all been over the Alan McKenzie-not-issuing-contracts-to-Alan-McKenzie thing so often that's there no need to start that argument again
And yet I'd argue that's absolutely critical to that era of 2000 AD. Sneddon glosses over that entirely, that the editor of the magazine knew loopholes he could exploit to retain rights. One might argue that showcases poor management at the time, but I'm sure an editor would just love it if a senior manager had to sign off on every strip or contract. (This actually happens at one publisher I write for, and it's nightmarish. It hugely slows every process down, from commissioning through to payment.)

I always find it interesting to note that Morrison explicitly retained copyright to Really & Truly and Big Dave, implying that he understood that this was not the case with his other work.
I've always felt the same about this: Morrison knew precisely what the deal was at the time. Now he's famous and presumably doesn't need Zenith, he's trying it on.

So in this piece, we now have:

• Attempts to conflate something having been designed/conceived outside of a publication with something that had actually been published outside of a publication.
• Zero insight into what a wholesale reversion of rights would actually mean for these strips and their creators.
• "Having previously sold text stories to other publishers, Robinson had assumed that comics worked the same – that the author retains the copyright." — Not true, or misdirection in how it's worded. Depends entirely on the publisher and the contract signed. Assumption when it comes to such things is something that should never be done.
• "Of course it later emerged that in the case of Zenith there was perhaps no contract at all." — Of course, that quote also showcases that Morrison knew exactly what the state of play was at the time.
• "The Journal of Luke Kirby, as popular and incredibly influential as it was" — Really? I liked that strip a lot—it was about the one thing McKenzie did for 2000 AD that was any good. But "incredibly influential"? [citation required]
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 01 July, 2013, 11:17:50 AM
but I always find it interesting to note that Morrison explicitly retained copyright to Really & Truly and Big Dave, implying that he understood that this was not the case with his other work. 

I do wonder if for some copyright only really became an issue when something was very popular (Zenith) and they could republish and make money or really bad (Big Dave) so they could stop anyone from ever seeing it ever again?


IndigioPrime: I was wondering about the Luke Kirby thing as well. Was it that it was one of the better things that time so seemed more popular or looking back at the strength of Harry Potter etc? I seem to remember someone writing about it being rather popular a year or so ago so maybe that's where it came from? (ie no proof needed beyond a quote)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 01 July, 2013, 11:25:32 AM
• "Having previously sold text stories to other publishers, Robinson had assumed that comics worked the same – that the author retains the copyright." — Not true, or misdirection in how it's worded. Depends entirely on the publisher and the contract signed. Assumption when it comes to such things is something that should never be done.

I'll confess I raised an eyebrow when I got to that bit — that's an extraordinary statement to allow to pass unchallenged. Whilst First British Serial Rights (FBSR) is definitely the norm when selling prose fiction in the UK it is, as you say, by no means a universal standard. I struggle to believe that Robinson would just assume that every piece of prose fiction she sold would automatically be on FBSR terms so why she would assume that it would be the default in an entirely different medium makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 01 July, 2013, 11:32:01 AM
Wouldn't you look at the contract/agreement for each piece of work you do to make sure of such a thing?

(Currently working on scientists Open Access paperwork, giving content to the journals for free whilst having to spend thousands of pounds for the 'right' to make their work freely available to the public)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 01 July, 2013, 12:27:51 PM
I was wondering about the Luke Kirby thing as well. Was it that it was one of the better things that time so seemed more popular or looking back at the strength of Harry Potter etc?
It was never that popular and it's certainly not been influential in comics or otherwise. (People arguing links with Harry Potter on a few occasions clearly have some kind of collective amnesia regarding the commonplace 'young boy as a magician' foundation in children's literature.) I'd argue that it was—for the most part—pretty good though. Summer Magic in particular was an excellent story. I'd be happy to see it as a chunky Rebellion trade, but that's clearly not on the cards, for obvious reasons.

Wouldn't you look at the contract/agreement for each piece of work you do to make sure of such a thing?
Well, I would. My assumption, coming at things from a freelance magazine writer, is actually the opposite—that the publisher will own everything, forever. Some clients don't do this—one reverts original submission rights after six months, and another after just one. That's rare though. What you don't do is enter into a business arrangement without making it clear what rights are. If you don't have a contract, assume the worst, not the best.)

What annoyed me, though, was the manner in which the issue of FBSR went by, as Jim said, unchallenged in that piece. It smacks of agenda, not neutral/investigative reporting.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 01 July, 2013, 12:45:34 PM
One might argue that showcases poor management at the time, but I'm sure an editor would just love it if a senior manager had to sign off on every strip or contract.

Maybe not every contract, but possibly the ones representing a direct conflict of interest, eh?  I do agree that Sneddon skipped over the McKenzie thing, I was just tired of talking about it myself.  Oddly I had just re-read McKenzie's 'I never read 2000AD before I became editor, I haven't since I left' quote in TPO, and found myself wondering if he ever read it while he was there, and after that I wasn't well disposed to having any further thoughts about that period.

Also didn't mean to imply that I thought the piece was unbiased, it's definitely still full of misdirection and conflation, I just felt that the discursive tone was more engaging without the explicit, so far unsupported, thesis from the first part looming over everything.

It's a good if frustrating read, and it's saddening to hear agai of creators who feel that the work that made the comic such fun has been stolen from them, but again and again I come back to one central point:  Rebellion bought 2000AD because of its ownership of mountains of juicy IP.  Without that lure, no Rebellion, no 2000AD, no lunch money for today's creatives.

I'm reminded of Alan Moore's line to an ailing Harvey Kurtzman, reported in Campbell's Fate of the Artist:

"I've lost the copyright to my two most successful works.  But we press on merrily. With the total folly of youth we assume we'll have an inexhaustible supply of good ideas".

It's tragic that comics professionals work in an environment where they find themselves selling some of their precious finite store of creativity in order to pay the bills, and then watch others profit from it.  But making use of an existing publisher and their reader base is, I suspect, a necessary step in not starving while you establish yourself, if you ever do, as successful enough to direct your own creator-owned projects at an expectant audience. 

It's a crap situation, but reading Sneddon's piece all I see is creators failing to establish in advance what they were being paid for, or understanding the kind of environment they are working in.  I have no problem with them trying to find loopholes to turn this situation to their advantage, but I still can't see it solely as goodies versus baddies, especially when the baddies in question are long gone.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 01 July, 2013, 12:58:02 PM
It was never that popular and it's certainly not been influential in comics or otherwise.


It was one of the better things at the time though; popular enough to run intermittently for 7 years in 2000AD/specials/yearbooks and it was one of the stories featured in the fleetway film/TV option portfolio. I think it would be well up for reprinting, if possible.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 01 July, 2013, 01:10:26 PM
It was one of the better things at the time though; popular enough to run intermittently for 7 years in 2000AD/specials/yearbooks and it was one of the stories featured in the fleetway film/TV option portfolio. I think it would be well up for reprinting, if possible.

I'd buy it but then I buy all of the tpb's. I do have a page of the original artwork though and it's always nice to see it in a collection.

Not the reference to it's influence I was thinking of but: http://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php?topic=33981.0
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 01 July, 2013, 01:14:40 PM
it was one of the stories featured in the fleetway film/TV option portfolio.

Hmm. You'd think they'd have double-checked the rights situation on any property they were touting for adaptation to a different medium…

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 01 July, 2013, 01:22:22 PM
Maybe not every contract, but possibly the ones representing a direct conflict of interest, eh?
The big failure from a management standpoint has to be McKenzie's own contract, which he inferred lacked a clause stating his work's rights would remain with the publisher. (There's also the question of self-commissioning under pseudonyms, although I don't recall that having been confirmed one way or the other—at least not by McKenzie himself when challenged on various forums about that.)

It's a good if frustrating read, and it's saddening to hear agai of creators who feel that the work that made the comic such fun has been stolen from them, but again and again I come back to one central point:  Rebellion bought 2000AD because of its ownership of mountains of juicy IP.  Without that lure, no Rebellion, no 2000AD, no lunch money for today's creatives.
Quite—and also at the time. How did creator-owned Warrior fare, for example?

It's tragic that comics professionals work in an environment where they find themselves selling some of their precious finite store of creativity in order to pay the bills, and then watch others profit from it.
The issue some writers have is in assuming they're owed by the publisher. Without 2000 AD, many of these creatives wouldn't have had a leg-up and wouldn't be working in the medium today. That's not to say certain things couldn't have been done better—reprint fees, for example. As for selling some of their finite store of creativity, I'd worry as a writer if my store was finite; I'd also say none of these creators has been blocked. In the case of Moore, you can bet if he said "Hey, Rebellion guys, how about I write up the next three Halo Jones books?", they'd go for it; the issue is the terms wouldn't be ones Moore would be willing to agree to.

It was one of the better things at the time though
I agree, but "really great for one series and then not bad, especially compared to the crap running in 2000 AD at the time" is a long way from "The Journal of Luke Kirby, as popular and incredibly influential as it was"!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 01 July, 2013, 02:44:10 PM
Only three and a half more hours to go now:)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 01 July, 2013, 02:46:22 PM
Only three and a half more hours to go now:)
Not that where all counting. And not I'll be buying one either! Haha ahem.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dunk! 01 July, 2013, 03:00:49 PM
If 6 o'clock comes and The Complete Zenith doesn't sell out (pre-order out?) in a gazillionth of a second causing much wailing & gnashing of teeth on the forum I'll be most disappointed.

Dunk!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 01 July, 2013, 03:18:03 PM
Or maybe the website won't load up the new page quickly, or the site collapses from demand or the payment system stops working again, people putting them in their shopping cart but then realising they need to have a shop account etc etc
So many potentially exciting scenarios that could come our way :P
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Greg M. 01 July, 2013, 03:36:39 PM
I firmly believe that thirty seconds before the countdown ends, Grant Morrison will astrally project himself into all our living rooms and try to kick us in the balls, a psychic assault which will be spoiled only by his intangibility.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Molch-R 01 July, 2013, 04:26:46 PM
Since it's been on our Facebook and Twitter for a while now, worth mentioning the details here:

Page count: 480
Size: 259mm x 187mm
Details: individually numbered hardback with dust jacket & ribbon
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 01 July, 2013, 05:29:41 PM
Since it's been on our Facebook and Twitter for a while now, worth mentioning the details here:

Page count: 480
Size: 259mm x 187mm
Details: individually numbered hardback with dust jacket & ribbon

That's a lot of pages.....

I 've got the 2000AD cover page with the countdown ticking away in a separate window on one side of the computer screen and the 2000AD online page on the other side of the screen.

I'm ready to purchase.....

Only thing is my internet browser is prone to freeze and shut down on me. Especially, when I have so many multiple web pages all open on the screen at once....

I also have faulty keyboard, which is painfully slow to type on....

Never the less, I will try my hardest to get in on the rush to purchase!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 01 July, 2013, 05:36:52 PM
Details: individually numbered hardback with dust jacket & ribbon

But is the ribbon black or yellow?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Molch-R 01 July, 2013, 05:45:10 PM
But is the ribbon black or yellow?

That's the surprise.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 01 July, 2013, 05:45:58 PM
But is the ribbon black or yellow?

That's the surprise.

Ahhhh the tension :P
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 01 July, 2013, 05:47:34 PM
Best of luck in the scrum, all!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: I, Cosh 01 July, 2013, 05:49:17 PM
I'll buy it with comes with a chimera shaped paperweight.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: O Lucky Stevie! 01 July, 2013, 05:51:48 PM
Yeah, it's not like Stevie's ever up listening to Broadcast at 2:30am Central Auxtralian Time on a school night.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: O Lucky Stevie! 01 July, 2013, 05:53:03 PM
Yeah, it's not like Stevie's ever stayed up listening to Broadcast at 2:30am Central Auxtralian Time on a school night before  ;)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: radiator 01 July, 2013, 05:54:03 PM
I've been going backwards and forwards, but ultimately I'm going to give it a miss. In all honesty id feel a bit guilty  spending so much in a book.

I'll cross my fingers for more affordable paperbacks in the future.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 01 July, 2013, 05:56:14 PM
I was still tempted, but fate decided for me today. In one email and one phone call, a third of my income just went up in smoke. *tightens belt*

Good luck to everyone else in snagging a copy!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 01 July, 2013, 05:57:15 PM
I'll buy it with comes with a chimera shaped paperweight.

If it's the kind that can turn into Beatrice Dalle, I'll take two.

Here's some nonsense from a Jason sacks review (http://comicsbulletin.com/reviews/5878/review-grant-morrison--steve-yeowells-the-complete-zenith-is-really-good-but-costs-150/):

Yeowell's work is lovely and captivating, a great contrast and realization of Morrison's writing. It's not innovative but it is the kind of solidly professional cartooning that a storyline like this needs to have.

Seriously, was anyone doing what Yeowell was doing in 1988/9?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Recrewt 01 July, 2013, 05:57:31 PM
Good luck too all those hoping to purchase.

I'm not, but I will be glad to be shot of the countdown page instead of the proper homepage!  :D
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 01 July, 2013, 05:59:26 PM
Here's some nonsense from a Jason sacks review (http://comicsbulletin.com/reviews/5878/review-grant-morrison--steve-yeowells-the-complete-zenith-is-really-good-but-costs-150/):

Yeowell's work is lovely and captivating, a great contrast and realization of Morrison's writing. It's not innovative but it is the kind of solidly professional cartooning that a storyline like this needs to have.

Fucking ingrate.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 01 July, 2013, 06:03:12 PM
Fuck yes!  :)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: jabish 01 July, 2013, 06:04:27 PM
4 mins and gone!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: strontium71 01 July, 2013, 06:04:42 PM
Of all the times that my boss comes up to see me!!!
I had to completely blank him which no doubt he'll 'see' me about tomorrow  >:(

But yeeehaaaw!

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Chancer 01 July, 2013, 06:05:51 PM
Woooo got it  :D
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: jabish 01 July, 2013, 06:06:15 PM
Nope my bad. Back again...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 01 July, 2013, 06:08:08 PM
I had someone ring me at exactly 6pm! But I ignored it and bought my copy.

Not so sure about getting the Zenith and Case Studies t-shirts though as that would be another £36 odd to spend.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: dweezil2 01 July, 2013, 06:09:21 PM
It's in the bag!!!

Woot, woot!  :)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Fatboydale 01 July, 2013, 06:11:36 PM
pain in the arse , it took ages for it to complete the payment .... got 1 ....

Now i wonder how many will be picked up by Diamond ... i shall find out ..
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Spikes 01 July, 2013, 06:11:45 PM
Best of luck in the scrum, all!

Aye, best of luck to those ordering. Just been looking again at it in the shop, and it sounds (and looks) a very nice package. Not cheap, but worth it, i think.
Wonder how long itll take to sell out?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Keef Monkey 01 July, 2013, 06:12:11 PM
Been watching the countdown keen on getting one (never read it) but had to bottle it at the price (having never read it)!

Still, it must be pretty fantastic if so many of you were willing to pay that, glad you managed to get one!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Grey M@a 01 July, 2013, 06:13:07 PM
Must admit I sat there for a while wondering whether to get it or not, I caved though xD

Just seen the tweet that around 350 of them have gone as of 2 minutes ago.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: klute 01 July, 2013, 06:14:13 PM
Bought :)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Greg M. 01 July, 2013, 06:15:34 PM
Bought the book. Resisted the t-shirt. The latter with difficulty.

350 gone in 10 minutes? Crikey.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: O Lucky Stevie! 01 July, 2013, 06:16:43 PM
Stak! Got the sucker in the cart then froze up on Sagepay & came up with "error processing card.


Stak stak stak STAK!!!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 01 July, 2013, 06:17:09 PM
I GOT ONE

Was it my imagination, or was my browser and the payment process painfully slower :)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: LARF 01 July, 2013, 06:17:53 PM
Ordered!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Grey M@a 01 July, 2013, 06:19:37 PM
I GOT ONE

Was it my imagination, or was my browser and the payment process painfully slower :)
SagePay sat there from 6pm - 6:05 trying to load, guess the mad rush bogged it down a little :)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: dweezil2 01 July, 2013, 06:19:55 PM
I GOT ONE

Was it my imagination, or was my browser and the payment process painfully slower :)

It was slow processing. All that traffic I suspect!

My hands were shaking as the payment was going through!  :o
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 01 July, 2013, 06:21:25 PM
Now, will they be numbered according to who got their order in or sent out randomly? If the former, I reckon I got a fairly low number!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 01 July, 2013, 06:21:56 PM
I swear the payment process took ten minutes.....

Is there a Zenith Tee-Shirt?

Didn't notice it in all the rushing about!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: O Lucky Stevie! 01 July, 2013, 06:22:33 PM
Anyone else get the following message after entering their card?



HTTP Status Code:    500
HTTP Status Message:    The request was unsuccessful due to an unexpected condition encountered by the server.
Error Code :    5006
Error Description :    Unable to redirect to Vendor's web site. The Vendor failed to provide a RedirectionURL.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ming 01 July, 2013, 06:24:38 PM
Anyone else get the following message after entering their card?



HTTP Status Code:    500
HTTP Status Message:    The request was unsuccessful due to an unexpected condition encountered by the server.
Error Code :    5006
Error Description :    Unable to redirect to Vendor's web site. The Vendor failed to provide a RedirectionURL.


I got that, then re-tried and it went through just fine...

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 01 July, 2013, 06:25:40 PM
The book is undersized, the £106 cost is ridiculous and demanding full up front payment months in advance is the final indignity.

Naturally, I bought it anyway.  :D
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: jabish 01 July, 2013, 06:27:53 PM
Half of em gone. Jaysus if this was titan sized they'd have my money.

Still on the fence edging toward no.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: w3bz 01 July, 2013, 06:28:45 PM
Hey Guys,

If you get that 500 error it's the server struggling under mass thrillpower, I'm keeping an eye on it! Send in an email if you have any further probs tho ;)

Cheers!

w
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Enigmatic Dr X 01 July, 2013, 06:30:29 PM
No idea if I got one. Staring at a blank screen!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Enigmatic Dr X 01 July, 2013, 06:33:23 PM
And now I can't check out as I'm in a loop of prompts to update my details. Which are up to date.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: strontium71 01 July, 2013, 06:33:49 PM
Call me a dunce , but if there have only been 119 people online today ( as of 18.33 ) , how come half have sold? I presume you have to be logged in to order one?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: dweezil2 01 July, 2013, 06:33:58 PM
What size is the T-shirt? There's no size drop down.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Grey M@a 01 July, 2013, 06:35:28 PM
Call me a dunce , but if there have only been 119 people online today ( as of 18.33 ) , how come half have sold? I presume you have to be logged in to order one?

Seems to be a lot of people stateside ordering. Don't think you have to be logged into the forum to use the shop?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: dweezil2 01 July, 2013, 06:35:41 PM
Call me a dunce , but if there have only been 119 people online today ( as of 18.33 ) , how come half have sold? I presume you have to be logged in to order one?

You can go direct to the shop, you don't need to be logged on to the forum.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: credo 01 July, 2013, 06:37:11 PM
Got one. Well I've got a confirmation at least. Won't believe it until it's sitting in my own sweaty hands.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Enigmatic Dr X 01 July, 2013, 06:37:32 PM
Logging out and back in sorted it.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: O Lucky Stevie! 01 July, 2013, 06:38:19 PM
Just got off phone from bank.

Sucker's still in Stevie's cart.

Shaking like a shitting dog waiting for Sagepay update to go through...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: dweezil2 01 July, 2013, 06:42:42 PM
What size is the T-shirt? There's no size drop down.

Apologies, there is a drop down now!   :)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 01 July, 2013, 06:43:57 PM
I GOT ONE

Was it my imagination, or was my browser and the payment process painfully slower :)

It was slow processing. All that traffic I suspect!

My hands were shaking as the payment was going through!  :o

There's that I guess, and there is also the slow process of reading from my credit card and entering the number,  the dates, the security code, entering my full name twice and the Sage Pay password and having to type in my E-mail address, the password for the 2000AD online Shop Account as well.

I got the limited Edition Zenith Tee-Shirt now :D

Now it's almost 45 minutes past the hour!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: klute 01 July, 2013, 06:46:18 PM
I GOT ONE

Was it my imagination, or was my browser and the payment process painfully slower :)

No not just you whole process took me 10 minutes from 6:00pm
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 01 July, 2013, 06:48:07 PM
What size is the T-shirt? There's no size drop down.

Apologies, there is a drop down now!   :)

Yes, there was a drop down menu for me!

I got the XL

Now, when do we get them?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: dweezil2 01 July, 2013, 06:54:42 PM
What size is the T-shirt? There's no size drop down.

Apologies, there is a drop down now!   :)

Yes, there was a drop down menu for me!





I got the XL

Now, when do we get them?



I should think before the book drops.

Wow, T's and the graphic novel!

Worth booking the day off work for!  ;-)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: O Lucky Stevie! 01 July, 2013, 07:02:45 PM
Still getting


There has been an error processing your credit card
Please try again and if problems persist, please try another payment method.


Have just gotten phone from bank again who have assured that there is no problem on their end with the card
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 01 July, 2013, 07:18:09 PM
Got one. Well I've got a confirmation at least. Won't believe it until it's sitting in my own sweaty hands.

You're going to have sweaty hands for quite a while then!

I got mine incredibly quickly with only the slightest of slowness within a minute or so.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Buttonman 01 July, 2013, 07:18:28 PM
OOOFT FORGOT ABOUT THIS BEING TODAY - WHY WAS THERE NO PUBLICITY?

Haha! Got mine with no hassle at all. Most I've ever paid for a book/comic/entertainment item but hopefully worth it for the fine product I'm sure it will be and possibly investment for the future (?).

Looks like it will be a sell out so well done Tharg and his minions for managing this so well and hopefully it'll be bonus plastic cups all round.

Happy Christmas to us!



: Re: The Complete Zenith
: O Lucky Stevie! 01 July, 2013, 07:22:05 PM
Gah. Still no getting "error processing card" despite bank's assurances.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 01 July, 2013, 07:34:14 PM
A hour and a half, has I been that long now?

How do you find out how many books are left?


: Re: The Complete Zenith
: dweezil2 01 July, 2013, 07:40:55 PM
Holy shit!

Looks like it's sold out! No longer in the shop!  :o
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: O Lucky Stevie! 01 July, 2013, 07:41:31 PM
...& then there were none.

Gah.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: newschmoo 01 July, 2013, 07:42:33 PM
Jesus, i just ordered it 2 mins ago. It was still for sale. Maybe i got no. 1000 !
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Molch-R 01 July, 2013, 07:45:52 PM
Don't panic, it may well be that the shop's fallen over. Bear with us...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Buttonman 01 July, 2013, 07:46:39 PM
Right, I'll take £150 and I'm robbin' mesel!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: dweezil2 01 July, 2013, 07:48:49 PM
Back up!   :)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 01 July, 2013, 07:54:53 PM
Fuck! I go out for an hour and they are gone!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Steve Green 01 July, 2013, 07:55:38 PM
If all else fails you can buy Chimera on e-bay...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJruyJ4keqM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJruyJ4keqM)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 01 July, 2013, 07:55:38 PM
Shit! It's there after all! POPOPOPOPO'd!!!!!!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: newschmoo 01 July, 2013, 08:04:57 PM
Maybe its a misprint and they're making 10,000.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Rio De Fideldo 01 July, 2013, 08:12:04 PM
Got mine ordered. Just spied the t shirt. Any clue on the sizes? How big is the m?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Molch-R 01 July, 2013, 08:13:18 PM
Got mine ordered. Just spied the t shirt. Any clue on the sizes? How big is the m?

If you're worried you might be a large, go for the large. #personalexperience
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 01 July, 2013, 08:23:01 PM
If you are worried just buy the biggest one possible. They will shrink in the wash as well.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Daveycandlish 01 July, 2013, 09:02:04 PM
Sounds like I'll be wearing my new Zenith tee as a boob tube within a month then!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: O Lucky Stevie! 01 July, 2013, 09:05:04 PM
Stevie still hasn't been able to purchase the hardcover yet as he is still getting:


System Error.

Due to a system error this transaction is unable to be completed. Click Continue to return to the merchant's website so that you may enter another form of payment.


Have been phoned bank a third time who have advised that they are not seeing any attempts to put the transaction through on their end.


Guess who is the muggins that has to wait  a couple of hours until the next level of technical support start their working day?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Buttonman 01 July, 2013, 09:19:10 PM
Oohh could be here for Halloween!

"2000 AD Tweet Droid ‏@2000AD 2h

@Nickih36 Not yet, but getting there! Officially December release but may be earlier."
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: O Lucky Stevie! 01 July, 2013, 09:43:21 PM
Praise Cal!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: dweezil2 01 July, 2013, 09:45:26 PM
Praise Cal!

Did your order go through?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: matty_ae 01 July, 2013, 10:39:13 PM
Its now sold out ( or no longer listed )
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: matty_ae 01 July, 2013, 10:48:07 PM
No its back again!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dash Decent 01 July, 2013, 11:44:35 PM
I woke up this morning expecting these to be all sold out and they're still up for sale.  Either no one's heard of this Morrison bloke or we'd better check the numbering to see how many of us got no. 735!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Sherman Kid 02 July, 2013, 01:17:50 AM
Bought, couldn't resist.

Any hope of this being printed a little earlier if/when it sells out quickly?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 02 July, 2013, 09:12:34 AM
There's still some left Over! (http://shop.2000adonline.com/)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin Zeal 02 July, 2013, 09:55:19 AM
Got mine last night on the second attempt about 6.10pm. I also ordered the t-shirt but there was no size drop down then. Can any of the staff here advixse on how I can ask for the correct size?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: w3bz 02 July, 2013, 10:11:26 AM
Just email the store with your order number and size you want, they're aware that happened when the product went live initially ;)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin Zeal 02 July, 2013, 10:14:58 AM
Thank you for the swift response.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: robert_ellis 02 July, 2013, 10:30:13 AM
Any chance of the Select Magazine Interview making it into the Complete Zenith. Written by Grant with new Yeowell art...
http://selectmagazinescans.monkeon.co.uk/showpage.php?file=wp-content/uploads/2012/03/zenith.jpg
Are there any other appearances outside the prog?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hendersong 02 July, 2013, 10:36:18 AM
Early birthday present sorted. Tempted to get the tshirt too but my wife would castrate me I fear...

Never even read Zenith so I hope it's worth it! looks awesome though.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Molch-R 02 July, 2013, 12:17:35 PM
Down to the last 50 now, Earthlets...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dash Decent 02 July, 2013, 12:30:47 PM
Any chance of an interior shot, Molch-R?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Molch-R 02 July, 2013, 12:38:40 PM
When they're actually printed, perhaps.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin Zeal 02 July, 2013, 12:48:53 PM
Maybe he meant of your interior Molch.  :o
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Molch-R 02 July, 2013, 01:02:02 PM
Maybe he meant of your interior Molch.  :o

No-one wants to see that. Expect maybe my proctologist.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 02 July, 2013, 01:11:13 PM


You have a proctologist?


: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Steve Green 02 July, 2013, 01:30:54 PM
Mek-Quake pulling double shifts.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Richmond Clements 02 July, 2013, 01:37:31 PM


You have a proctologist?

Well, I do it more as a hobby than anything else...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ming 02 July, 2013, 02:27:43 PM
It seems that Elvis has left the building!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 02 July, 2013, 02:28:39 PM
It seems that Elvis has left the building!

Oh yeah
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Molch-R 02 July, 2013, 02:46:24 PM
Just another wobble from the shop, it seems: http://shop.2000adonline.com/products/the_complete_zenith
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 02 July, 2013, 02:52:30 PM
So how many left now? 25?
Shows I didn't need to stay after work yesterday after all!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 02 July, 2013, 03:12:13 PM
Oh, I could have gone to sleep last night.

I was 3 AM in the morning in where I am when it went live!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: LARF 02 July, 2013, 04:25:03 PM
Maybe he meant of your interior Molch.  :o

Is that like your 'inner-self'?

Sounds a bit up your own arse for my liking.

Just ordered a Zenith T-shirt. Marvellous.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 02 July, 2013, 05:01:15 PM
You have a proctologist?

Well, I do it more as a hobby than anything else...

You've got a little behind in your work lately, Rich.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Grant Goggans 02 July, 2013, 06:35:19 PM
Going back seven(!) pages, I also think that Sneddon's story is awfully biased, albeit interesting.  I like the points raised against it here, and would love to see you guys challenge her there at the Beat, rather than talking here.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Sherman Kid 02 July, 2013, 10:00:53 PM
Any chance of the print date being moved forward Molch-R ?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dash Decent 02 July, 2013, 11:42:04 PM
Maybe he meant of your interior Molch.  :o

Let's go out on a limb here.  Could it be that I was trying to find out more about this book - the 100 quid one, that has to be paid for in full months in advance - than that it comes with a bookmark?  I'm obviously in a minority as 975 people have been happy enough to front the cash sight unseen, I just need a bit more convincing.  It's a lot of money and, while acknowledging that scarcity value has a lot to do with the price, I'd like to know that it means a quality book that will last.

Anything more you can share, Molch-R?  Sewn-in sections?  110msg acid free paper?  Not printed in China?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: shaolin_monkey 03 July, 2013, 01:00:46 AM
I take it I was too slow? Not showing in he shop anymore...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 03 July, 2013, 09:11:42 AM
It had gone earlier and actually said not available but it seems to be back again. Along with the big advert on the main page.
Considering they've not even been printed yet it's not that they are finding them down the back of the filing cabinet so why the confusion?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ming 03 July, 2013, 09:18:15 AM
Considering they've not even been printed yet it's not that they are finding them down the back of the filing cabinet so why the confusion?

Copies in shopping carts / unfinished transactions being recycled?  I guess that there can't be many copies left, anyway.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 03 July, 2013, 09:38:04 AM
People's credit cards being rejected further down the line?
Could be possible I guess.
I wonder how many are actually being printed. Obviously 1000 for sale but then there will have to be promotional ones for the authors/artist, ones to the bosses etc.
Or maybe they only get the pdf and have to spend their own money to get one?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: johnnystress 03 July, 2013, 11:16:03 AM
Woohoo--glad I checked this

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 03 July, 2013, 11:33:43 AM
I wonder how many are actually being printed. Obviously 1000 for sale but then there will have to be promotional ones for the authors/artist, ones to the bosses etc.

Someone linked to a review of the actual book (not just the content), so review copies have gone out. Judging by comments about a high volume of sales to the US, I'd say Tharg's been touting this as a way for US Morrison completists to get their hands on a legit copy of one of their holy grails. If sales of this are good enough, maybe we can get a compendium of stuff like The New Adventures of Hitler and Bible John. I wouldn't mind paying to own those stories twice if they promise to reprint them on something other than the brittle school toilet paper on which Crisis was smeared.

Presumably there's no ownership issues with those stories, which were commissioned underCrisis's first-reprint-then-the-rights-revert-to-the-creators deal - right?
 
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 03 July, 2013, 11:47:58 AM
Someone linked to a review of the actual book (not just the content), so review copies have gone out.

If you're referring to this (http://comicsbulletin.com/reviews/5878/review-grant-morrison--steve-yeowells-the-complete-zenith-is-really-good-but-costs-150/), there's no indication in the review that Jason has actually seen the physical thing - it's a review of Zenith cheekily dressed up as a review of the book to capitalise on clicks from hungry muppets like us.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 03 July, 2013, 11:49:27 AM
Do you mean the Comic Bulletin link Sauchie?

As on Facebook under that link it was said that 'Reviewers were provided with PDF copies of the book, so they're reviewing its contents.' (Monday 8.20pm) and on page 35 of this thread Molch-R says 'When they're actually printed, perhaps.' in respond to a request for an internal photo.

The Comic Bulletin mentions the number of pages but nothing else about the actual book as it doesn't yet physically exist. But reviewing the combined content is the important thing of course.
Unless you mean another link of course. Bound to be a lot out there.


I am surprised it didn't sell out quicker (well it's still on the shop page as available now) because of the potential US market especially.

The problem with some of the Crisis stuff is in my mind the quality of the work, not the copyright ;)

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 03 July, 2013, 11:50:48 AM
Someone linked to a review of the actual book (not just the content), so review copies have gone out.

I'm pretty sure the 'review copies' are PDFs. Some (I presume all) are watermarked with the intended recipient, which will make it pretty easy to track back if the inevitable torrent appears on the P2P networks.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 03 July, 2013, 11:55:05 AM
...which will make it pretty easy to track back if the inevitable torrent appears on the P2P networks.

Not that Complete Zenith torrents were ever hard to come by before this.  In a way it's heartening that Tharg can sell a kilozenith at a substantial price in a world where any unscrupulous sod can read the same comic digitally for nowt. 
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 03 July, 2013, 11:57:12 AM
Do you mean the Comic Bulletin link Sauchie?

Sorry, skim reading is my downfall. Shame.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 03 July, 2013, 12:40:35 PM
Easy enough thing to assume though :)

And I know it's written on the page and we know but I wonder how many people don't realise they won't be getting it until December?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: I, Cosh 03 July, 2013, 12:47:16 PM
If sales of this are good enough, maybe we can get a compendium of stuff like The New Adventures of Hitler and Bible John. I wouldn't mind paying to own those stories twice if they promise to reprint them on something other than the brittle school toilet paper on which Crisis was smeared.

Presumably there's no ownership issues with those stories, which were commissioned underCrisis's first-reprint-then-the-rights-revert-to-the-creators deal - right?
I'm certainly not arguing against reprinting everything ever, nor do I have the faintest idea about publishing but I'm not going to let that stop me weighing in anyway. Would there really be much of a market for this stuff? Sure plenty people here would probably buy it, so that's twenty copies sold. Zenith's a different thing as it's a hefty chunk of Morrison's early career as well as being known for the ongoing controversy. Are the oft-cited Yankee masses really going to shell out on a volume of thirty year old ephemera in sufficient numbers to make it worthwhile?

Further, does the creator-owned part make it even less likely? If a publisher already has the rights then maybe sticking it out is worth a punt but if they have to spend time and money renegotiating does that impact further on small profits? NB As already mentioned, I know hee-haw about publishing.

Mini-reviews.

New Adventures of Hitler. Great stuff; vintage Morrison; Yeowell's art looks uncharacteristically good coloured (something to do with D'Israeli, I believe, even though he professes to be embarrassed by it.) Would read again. Please reprint in a single volume alongside St Swithin's Day, Kill Your Boyfriend and Big Dave. Thanks.

Bible John. Dugshite. To expand: a bald-faced grafting of some superficial elements of From Hell onto a far less interesting Scottish case retaining pretty much none of the insight or power of the original. One or two pages do look very nice though.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Link Prime 03 July, 2013, 12:51:25 PM
Really glad its in print.
I think they're havin a fackin giraffe with the price though...100 quid is too much- that'd be almost 120 Euro.

No, I'll wait for a paperback or digital trade.

Due to being a fickle geek / sheep hybrid who's purchasing whims could be swayed by some forum hyperbole and Bleedingcool quips, I back-tracked on this comment so fast it would send goosebumps up Diamond Joe Quimby's arms.

Just checked my bank balance online this morning- the payments been made.
(Ended up costing 131 Euro Incl postage by the way)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Proudhuff 03 July, 2013, 01:30:12 PM
So, as far as we know there has been no, ahem, fallout from this? 
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 03 July, 2013, 01:30:33 PM
Would there really be much of a market for (Morrison's early Crisis work)? Sure plenty people here would probably buy it, so that's twenty copies sold. Zenith's a different thing as it's a hefty chunk of Morrison's early career as well as being known for the ongoing controversy.

Aye, Zenith's an easier sell because it's very superhero-y. I'm only parroting what others have said here, but Inferno (and I think Crusade too) apparently sold better than the other Dredd stuff in the US. You have to put that down to the names of Morrison and Millar on the covers, because it certainly doesn't reflect the quality of the material inside. The image of Hitler on the cover would do a lot of the PR department's work for them in a similar way; he's not published any new material for a while, but his last TPB was a bestseller .

Mini-reviews: New Adventures of Hitler. Great stuff; vintage Morrison; Yeowell's art looks uncharacteristically good coloured (something to do with D'Israeli, I believe, even though he professes to be embarrassed by it.) Would read again. Please reprint in a single volume alongside St Swithin's Day, Kill Your Boyfriend and Big Dave. Thanks.

Bible John. Dugshite. To expand: a bald-faced grafting of some superficial elements of From Hell onto a far less interesting Scottish case retaining pretty much none of the insight or power of the original. One or two pages do look very nice though.

I'd agree with both reviews, but I probably enjoyed Bible John much more because I'd never read or heard of From Hell at the time; when I first found Moore and Campbells' magnificent octopus I wondered if they were ripping off Morrison and Vallely. Plus, having grown up seeing that photo-fit in the tabloids on a regular basis, I thought they used the totemic power of that image in a way that resonated really well - but that's a peculiarly parochial perspective.

 
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: klute 03 July, 2013, 01:37:40 PM
So, as far as we know there has been no, ahem, fallout from this?

I've been wondering the same thing
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 03 July, 2013, 01:38:13 PM
Never read New Adventures of Hitler, but it's always appealed in concept and art, and it's years since I read St Swithin's Day.  Kill Your Boyfriend has the Philip Bond factor to commend it, although it seems to lurk in the bargain bins of many a comics shoppe.  Alongside New Adventures, Big Dave must surely be the biggest draw for any cross-publisher putative The Morrison Apocryhpa volume: I can see the cover now, Adolf and Saddam versus Really and Truly...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 03 July, 2013, 01:47:54 PM
Kill Your Boyfriend ... seems to lurk in the bargain bins of many a comics shoppe. 

Possibly because it has bumming in it, but not the ass rape of lycra clad women so popular with those who follow the adventures of the champions of all that is good and right.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: johnnystress 03 July, 2013, 01:58:10 PM
I expect a press release from the creators shortly that will make me hang my head in shame for buying this
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 03 July, 2013, 02:11:02 PM
I expect a press release from the creators shortly that will make me hang my head in shame for buying this

Quite right too.  Salve you conscience by redirecting the tainted grimoire to me.  I will.. deal with it.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 03 July, 2013, 02:13:25 PM
I expect a press release from the creators shortly that will make me hang my head in shame for buying this

Sell the cursed book on eBay and use the funds to buy massive quantities of unsold Before Watchmen books.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Recrewt 03 July, 2013, 02:40:19 PM
Ha! I was surprised to see BW: Minutemen / Silk Spectre at the top of the Hot New Releases in Comics & Graphic Novels on Amazon.

I'm looking forward to seeing them clogging up my local Forbidden Planet - they seemed to have piles of the individual comics lying around.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 03 July, 2013, 02:56:28 PM
Silk Spectre was a good fun comic that would have worked equally well under another title but did okay as an 'alternate universe Watchmen' story, and I suppose Minutemen wasn't too bad (although i don't think I lasted until the end) - quite an appealing volume with those two in it, and certainly the best of the BWs I read.  Good enough to risk your immortal soul though?  That's the question.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Proudhuff 03 July, 2013, 03:04:41 PM
Remember the snake god is watching  :o
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Link Prime 03 July, 2013, 03:16:43 PM
Silk Spectre was a good fun comic that would have worked equally well under another title but did okay as an 'alternate universe Watchmen' story, and I suppose Minutemen wasn't too bad (although i don't think I lasted until the end) - quite an appealing volume with those two in it, and certainly the best of the BWs I read.  Good enough to risk your immortal soul though?  That's the question.

Both were by far the best 'Before Watchmen' titles, and by no coincidence Darwyn Cooke was involved.

I didn't give a monkeys toss about any perceived controversy when I read and enjoyed those particular BW comics, and likewise feel the same regarding Zenith.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 03 July, 2013, 03:44:09 PM
I didn't give a monkeys toss about any perceived controversy when I read and enjoyed those particular BW comics, and likewise feel the same regarding Zenith.

To anger one magus is foolhardy, to anger two is... a recipe to become very sticky indeed.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: credo 03 July, 2013, 04:22:55 PM
With all this talk of reprinting Grant Morrison's old Crisis work, can I be the first (on this thread) to call for the reprint of John Smith's/Jim Baikie's astounding New Statesmen.  Another great 2000AD does superheroes story that's been lost in the mists of time!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Bat King 03 July, 2013, 05:39:53 PM
Someone linked to a review of the actual book (not just the content), so review copies have gone out.

I'm pretty sure the 'review copies' are PDFs. Some (I presume all) are watermarked with the intended recipient, which will make it pretty easy to track back if the inevitable torrent appears on the P2P networks.

Cheers

Jim

I think Jim has the right of this matter. Not seen a preview copy myself =( but it would be pdf as almost everyone does that these days & can any of you see Molch-R sending someone a £100 book??? Cos he wouldn't.

Also I quess that unlike a review copy of the prog these babies would be watermarked.

I doubt there are many preview copies out either.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 03 July, 2013, 05:51:14 PM
I think Jim has the right of this matter.

Aye, opaque pointed out the reason for my error further up the thread.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 03 July, 2013, 06:23:44 PM
With all this talk of reprinting Grant Morrison's old Crisis work, can I be the first (on this thread) to call for the reprint of John Smith's/Jim Baikie's astounding New Statesmen.  Another great 2000AD does superheroes story that's been lost in the mists of time!

This I would buy in a heartbeat (as long as it wasn't £100 or thereabouts).  In fact screw that, I would pay £100 if it'd persuade Smiffy to write more.  Somebody remind me who owns the rights to the non-creator-owned Crisis stuff?  If it's Rebellion, fingers should be removed from orifices toot-sweet: even some Meg floppies would be a start, a chance to get the files sorted out at least.  Imagine the bulging veiny Hicklenton TWW squeezing its way through your letter box! 
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 03 July, 2013, 06:35:17 PM
Somebody remind me who owns the rights to the non-creator-owned Crisis stuff?

Egmont inherited Crisis, and are unwilling to allow interested parties such as Titan to reprint from it, if the ECBT2000AD podcast interview with Pat Mills is anything to by.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 03 July, 2013, 07:11:55 PM
Imagine the bulging veiny Hicklenton Third World War squeezing its way through your letter box!

HA! For this, and the fact you're the only person who thinks of Keira Knightley as that girl who played one of Queen Amidala's retinue, you win the internet. Again.

 
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Harry 20 03 July, 2013, 07:32:35 PM
Anyone know how many more are left?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 03 July, 2013, 07:38:17 PM
Anyone know how many more are left?

I suspect the PR droid would tell you "only a handful" and a cynic might interpret that as "approximately 800".
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 03 July, 2013, 07:53:56 PM
Or 'as many as we want as we haven't printed them yet and if we don't number them we can sell as many as possible!' ;)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Harry 20 03 July, 2013, 08:30:03 PM
Surely Tharg wouldn't do that to us....
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Richmond Clements 03 July, 2013, 08:40:59 PM
Well, as we've already been told they're numbered, and what is being described here is fraudulent and probably illegal behaviour, then no, I don't think they will...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 03 July, 2013, 08:50:01 PM
Egmont inherited Crisis, and are unwilling to allow interested parties such as Titan to reprint from it, if the ECBT2000AD podcast interview with Pat Mills is anything to by.

Gah, I remember now!  Cheer's JBA.  Bloody tragic, mind.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 03 July, 2013, 08:50:59 PM
Aaargh, rogue apostrophe apology (hides from Donachie & Campbell's righteous fury). 
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 03 July, 2013, 09:01:45 PM
Well, as we've already been told they're numbered, and what is being described here is fraudulent and probably illegal behaviour, then no, I don't think they will...

Hence the ;)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 03 July, 2013, 10:14:34 PM
Gone from the shop again! Is that finally it?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Montynero 03 July, 2013, 11:22:59 PM
Hope not! Watching this rabid frenzy of consumerism has been highy entertaining. :) And I already miss that iconic yellow landing page on the 2000ad site. 
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: maryanddavid 03 July, 2013, 11:39:38 PM
According to one creator in Derry, Titan are looking to put together a collection TWW.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 04 July, 2013, 06:29:11 AM
According to one creator in Derry, Titan are looking to put together a collection TWW.

Sorry I'm probably being very slow but what does TWW stand for?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 04 July, 2013, 06:42:15 AM
Sorry I'm probably being very slow but what does TWW stand for?

Third World War.

That was the story Mills said Titan weren't able to reprint on the podcast I mentioned. Be nice if things have changed.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ming 04 July, 2013, 06:54:53 AM
Brendan McCarthy has left a lengthy comment on the Zenith article at the Comics Beat (was also put on FB)...  Worth a read, I think.

http://comicsbeat.com/mad-mental-crazy-the-true-life-of-the-fabulous-zenith-part-2/#comment-569818
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Richmond Clements 04 July, 2013, 07:03:59 AM
Brendan McCarthy has left a lengthy comment on the Zenith article at the Comics Beat (was also put on FB)...  Worth a read, I think.

http://comicsbeat.com/mad-mental-crazy-the-true-life-of-the-fabulous-zenith-part-2/#comment-569818

ZING!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: klute 04 July, 2013, 07:08:29 AM
Brendan McCarthy has left a lengthy comment on the Zenith article at the Comics Beat (was also put on FB)...  Worth a read, I think.

http://comicsbeat.com/mad-mental-crazy-the-true-life-of-the-fabulous-zenith-part-2/#comment-569818

Nice ;) well worth a read
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 04 July, 2013, 07:17:02 AM
Brendan McCarthy has left a lengthy comment on the Zenith article at the Comics Beat (was also put on FB)...  Worth a read, I think.

http://comicsbeat.com/mad-mental-crazy-the-true-life-of-the-fabulous-zenith-part-2/#comment-569818

"You need to take what Grant says about Zenith and his earlier career with a pinch of salt. There’s a lot of revisionist legend-buffing going on…

Some of us were actually there."


: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 04 July, 2013, 07:24:47 AM
Ouch!  :lol:
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 04 July, 2013, 07:37:21 AM


Wah, wah, wahhhhhh.


: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 04 July, 2013, 08:13:25 AM
Sorry I'm probably being very slow but what does TWW stand for?

Third World War.

That was the story Mills said Titan weren't able to reprint on the podcast I mentioned. Be nice if things have changed.

Oh yeah... kinda obvious now!

As for Mr McCarthy's notes on the Zenith piece very revealing.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 04 July, 2013, 11:27:34 AM
Grant has subsequently claimed that he invented Danny The Street whilst walking backwards around Paris in a Situationist hash-trance… or something.

The great thing about that piece is that it makes me like both Brendan and Grant even more than I already did.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Spikes 04 July, 2013, 04:18:14 PM
Brendan McCarthy has left a lengthy comment on the Zenith article at the Comics Beat (was also put on FB)...  Worth a read, I think.

http://comicsbeat.com/mad-mental-crazy-the-true-life-of-the-fabulous-zenith-part-2/#comment-569818

A great read that, Ming - thanks for posting. A intersting article, and a equally interesting comment from Brendan. Top stuff.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Montynero 04 July, 2013, 04:32:45 PM
haha! I love Brendan. He really is a visionary, artistically. His ideas, his sensibility. But I do wonder who'll pop up next with an even earlier 'down to earth' take on superheroes. Really, it's not a difficult idea to have. I'm sure it's a concept which has independently occurred to hundreds of creators at different times throughout the decades, reflecting the fashions of their particular time. The magic comes from what you do with an idea, how you realise it and blend it with other notions to create a compelling story. That's what Grant and Steve did so well, initially.

Very interested to read Paradax now!

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 04 July, 2013, 04:41:25 PM
haha! I love Brendan. He really is a visionary, artistically. His ideas, his sensibility. But I do wonder who'll pop up next with an even earlier 'down to earth' take on superheroes. Really, it's not a difficult idea to have. I'm sure it's a concept which has independently occurred to hundreds of creators at different times throughout the decades, reflecting the fashions of their particular time. The magic comes from what you do with an idea, how you realise it and blend it with other notions to create a compelling story. That's what Grant and Steve did so well, initially.


It's the style, tone and attitude of his own spin on it that he's really pointing up, not the the concept of down to earth superheroes itself. Zenith has a lot of the playfulness and design that Brendan initiated with Paradax.





: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Montynero 04 July, 2013, 04:56:06 PM
Crossed with the realism and tone you might in Moore's work -and the multiverse spanning scope of Grant's imagination. Which, you could argue, created something which felt new and interesting.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 04 July, 2013, 05:08:09 PM
I do wonder who'll pop up next with an even earlier 'down to earth' take on superheroes. Really, it's not a difficult idea to have. I'm sure it's a concept which has independently occurred to hundreds of creators at different times throughout the decades

Superfolks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfolks) is usually cited as what kicked off the trenchcoats, cigarettes and slanting rain period of costumed adventure, but - as you say - it's hardly an original idea. The most obvious precedent is the comedy sketch show staple of a slightly pudgy Superman coming home to a nagging wife and a dog that keeps taking atomic shits on the carpet. Moore and Co. took that idea and played it straight, in the same way Charlie Kauffman films are all basically the end of Blazing Saddles.

Anyone got any thoughts on what specific bit of magic bollocks (presumably imagery) Our Bren' is referring to when he says ""the ‘magickal’ stuff in Zenith wasn’t original (2000AD had to pay off some artist for having his stuff ripped off later on in the series)"? Or is that just Brendan's own bit of "legend-buffing"? (i)


(i) quote, quote, quote of the week - McCarthy can't help casually tossing out those kind of gems, can he?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Steve Green 04 July, 2013, 05:16:32 PM
I can't remember who it was, but at a guess it's possibly the same person Grant Morrison mentions in the Titan intro pages?

I remember the line "they noticed"
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ming 04 July, 2013, 05:22:21 PM
...I do wonder who'll pop up next with an even earlier 'down to earth' take on superheroes. Really, it's not a difficult idea to have. I'm sure it's a concept which has independently occurred to hundreds of creators at different times throughout the decades, reflecting the fashions of their particular time.

Superbrat-with-an-agent who’s more interested in drinking, partying and chasing girls along with his media image?  Convergent evolution of a ’similar’ idea or Grant thinking "I’ll have a bit of that?"  You, the reader, decide!

Very interested to read Paradax now!

It’s a good read, but the least challenging (intentionally so) of all the M&M Strange Days strips.  Freakwave’s where it’s at...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Recrewt 04 July, 2013, 05:26:24 PM
I thought this when I read the article - they are really hamming up the 'they stole all my original ideas' thing.  Really - how much stuff is created that is not influenced by something else.  Oh, and Luke Kirby preceded Harry Potter - hmmm, bet there were no young wizards before that!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 04 July, 2013, 05:44:05 PM
Anyone got any thoughts on what specific bit of magic bollocks (presumably imagery) Our Bren' is referring to when he says ""the ‘magickal’ stuff in Zenith wasn’t original (2000AD had to pay off some artist for having his stuff ripped off later on in the series)"? Or is that just Brendan's own bit of "legend-buffing"?


It was author Peter Carroll and his chaos magick books.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 04 July, 2013, 06:00:57 PM
Anyone got any thoughts on what specific bit of magic bollocks (presumably imagery) Our Bren' is referring to when he says ""the ‘magickal’ stuff in Zenith wasn’t original (2000AD had to pay off some artist for having his stuff ripped off later on in the series)"? Or is that just Brendan's own bit of "legend-buffing"?

It was author Peter Carroll and his chaos magick books.

The magic eightball knows all. Cheers, SOAP.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Montynero 04 July, 2013, 06:03:31 PM
Thanks, Joe.

This forum's a font of fascinating info! Another bleedin' occultist to add to the mix. Dunno why writers do this. 'In my quest to be original I'll dabble in chaos magicks like, er...everyone else." >sigh!< 

Recrewt: yeah, the Luke Kirby thing was overstated.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 04 July, 2013, 06:05:04 PM


It was the illustrator of Carroll's books that made the claim and allegedly received settlement.




: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dunk! 04 July, 2013, 07:30:44 PM
With the availability of the new (re-release) Zenith T-shirt and in response to the UK Judge cosplay garrison I'm thinking about setting up the portly middle-aged Zenith cosplay continuum to prop up the bar at cons.

Red Dragons and Mandalas welcome.

Who's in?

Dunk!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Kerrin 04 July, 2013, 10:57:24 PM
Who's in?

Dunk!

As a portly middle aged person I wholeheartedly support this fantastical scheme.

Now, who would like to buy me a complete Zenith hardback limited to 1000 editions bound in stookie scrotum skin book for costume reference.....
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Spikes 06 July, 2013, 10:05:58 AM
Gone from the shop again! Is that finally it?


I noticed over on 2000ad's FB page last night that its now sold out. Not a suprise really.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Minkyboy 06 July, 2013, 10:35:16 AM
See this week's (1840) Damage Report for a behind the scenes peek at the Droid's travails with the Zenith book.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 06 July, 2013, 10:59:02 AM
I noticed over on 2000ad's FB page last night that its now sold out. Not a suprise really.

I'm really surprised it took that long.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jo-L 06 July, 2013, 04:04:45 PM
I noticed over on 2000ad's FB page last night that its now sold out. Not a suprise really.

I was surprised at this quite from the Beat story: "it's the fastest selling title we've ever had and sold out in just 48 hours"

Does that mean it sold out three days ago, but they announced that it sold out yesterday?  Sounds conspiratorial to me...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Proudhuff 06 July, 2013, 04:24:03 PM
See this week's (1840) Damage Report for a behind the scenes peek at the Droid's travails with the Zenith book.

That Marg is a one isn't she?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 06 July, 2013, 04:27:10 PM
Does that mean it sold out three days ago, but they announced that it sold out yesterday?  Sounds conspiratorial to me...

You've just activated the Molch-R signal.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 06 July, 2013, 05:05:23 PM
See this week's (1840) Damage Report for a behind the scenes peek at the Droid's travails with the Zenith book.

That Marg is a one isn't she?
I'm a little bit afraid to be frank.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dash Decent 07 July, 2013, 07:42:04 AM
I was surprised at this quite from the Beat story: "it's the fastest selling title we've ever had and sold out in just 48 hours"

Does that mean it sold out three days ago, but they announced that it sold out yesterday?  Sounds conspiratorial to me...

Perhaps its the 24 hours it was on sale the first day added to the 24 hours it was on sale the last day = 48 hours.  The days in the middle don't count.  ;) :D :lol: ::)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 07 July, 2013, 06:33:42 PM
Second part of Laura Sneddon's investigation into the facts of Zenith ownership.

And here's Part Three. (http://comicsbeat.com/mad-mental-crazy-the-true-life-of-the-fabulous-zenith-part-3/)

Wow, that's a lot of unsupported assertion, unjustified conflation and agenda-driven inference-drawing masquerading as a piece of journalism.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Buttonman 07 July, 2013, 07:24:39 PM
Gave up at this point :
So how does UK copyright work? Very basically (and bearing in mind that I am a freelance writer, not a lawyer!)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 07 July, 2013, 07:32:13 PM
Gave up at this point :
So how does UK copyright work? Very basically (and bearing in mind that I am a freelance writer, not a lawyer!)

That was probably wise.

I would like to go to the comments there and really have a go at addressing some of the unsupported assertions the piece as a whole makes, but is there really any point?  Maybe if I have a skinful some evening this week I'll feel sufficiently combative. If I ever get off this night-time working lark long enough.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 07 July, 2013, 07:46:13 PM
To me that quote from Morrison from 2009 screams out  'I don't own it so I can't do anything about it' :P

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 07 July, 2013, 07:50:52 PM
If I ever get off this night-time working lark long enough.

Congratulations, neebs.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 07 July, 2013, 08:15:58 PM
If I ever get off this night-time working lark long enough.

Congratulations, neebs.

Unpaid, Sauchie, alas all unpaid!  Don't even ask, it's not worth it.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 07 July, 2013, 08:22:34 PM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7948084

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 07 July, 2013, 08:41:24 PM
It's a nice idea, but according to the wife I'd have to pay my clients.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 07 July, 2013, 08:51:56 PM
One of the (many) things that really gets about these pieces is Sneddon's habit of repeatedly citing the date that formal contracts were instigated and implying that this pretty much validates Morrison's claim.

If it were that cut and dried, that would mean there are no existing contracts for anything Alan Moore wrote for IPC and he'd long since taken his ball home when Rebellion did their "mopping up" exercise laying claim to previous work in current contracts. Why would Moore have bothered with his long-repeated "give me back the rights to Halo Jones" stance when approached by 2000ad editorial if he had a strong legal case that 2000ad/Rebellion/Fleetway/IPC never owned them in the first place?

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 07 July, 2013, 09:09:16 PM
I note that Laura is moaning on Twitter about people "making things personal" and specifically citing this thread. FWIW, I was prepared to give her the benefit of the doubt until an exchange on a FB group where she claimed that Rebellion had "just made £100K" on the Zenith book, so I asked her whether she was contending that the book had ZERO overheads, or if the claim was inaccurate which got a reply something along the lines of* "Only inaccurate if you don't accept the underlying truth of what I was saying". So… accurate in every sense except being factually correct, then?

Bah!

Jim

*I've departed from said FB group for the sake of my blood pressure and can't furnish an exact quotation.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Professor Bear 07 July, 2013, 09:40:06 PM
She probably meant my earlier posts when I said her conclusions were based on presupposition rather than an evaluation of UK copyright law and that this was because she smells of wee.

Still, the articles got Brendan McCarthy's blood up until he weighed in so they're not a write-off.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 07 July, 2013, 10:09:13 PM
"making things personal"
Unlike, say, a three-part series based around the legal problems surrounding a story a friend wrote?

I've a lot of time for the author, but this series hasn't been her finest hour.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 07 July, 2013, 10:52:48 PM
I'm a bit lost here.  Did anyone here say anything negative about Laura herself, other than in general we thought she was a good online writer but (by her own admission) in this instance influenced by her friendship with the subject?  We certainly complained plenty about what we saw as misleading statements and other problems in the specific articles, but I would have thought that was far from a personal attack.  If anything I thought we were making allowances for her fondness for Grant.  We all have our own biases after all.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 07 July, 2013, 11:41:09 PM
Ahh I've obviously missed something if there's a personal connection.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dunk! 08 July, 2013, 09:25:47 AM
I take two things away from that article.

1: Gawd I so want to see all that old Steve Yeowell art that personally I haven't seen since it was originally published.

2: Brendan McCarthy considers himself "a very slow artist" - I have laboured under the impression that due to his film/TV work and the sheer energy of his comic pages (The Black Atlantic in particular) he was quite a speedy artist. There ya go.

Dunk! - learning something new every day.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Patrick 08 July, 2013, 10:10:40 AM
The main quibble I would have with Laura's pieces is her suggestion that the docket system IPC used to use isn't legally binding. Based on my paralegal experience, it seems like a valid contract to me. For a contract to exist, one party has to make an offer, the other party has to accept that offer, and consideration has to change hands - and in copyright assignment, it must be done in writing. The docket system as described seems to satisfy that. The terms are set out by the publisher on the docket - that's the offer, in writing. The creator signs it - that's acceptance, in writing - and cashes the cheque - that's consideration.

If, as Morrison claims, Rebellion have no paperwork to prove ownership of Zenith, I can think of a few possibilities. One, the docket system was no longer in use when Zenith was commissioned. Two, it was generally in use, but editorial slipped up and didn't issue a docket in this case, like they sometimes didn't issue contracts later on. Three, it was in use and was used in this case, but for whatever reason copies have not been kept. If the third can be established I don't think Morrison has much of a case.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Recrewt 09 July, 2013, 03:08:47 PM
Just read the latest and this one seemed to be slightly less contentious than the previous two. 

There is still a lot that can be picked apart from it and for me, it seems she keeps going back to the 'no contract exists' statement as if that makes the whole thing a done deal.  From what little I have seen of contract disputes, the lack of any contract rarely makes things clear-cut.  I also think she dismisses the docket issue too quickly.

I am relatively new to this issue though so I have learnt some stuff that I didn't know before.  Wasn't aware that Rebellion have a contract for Steve Yeowell's rights so it seems Rebellion/Grant are locked forever in an eternal struggle that neither can break free of - kind of like Thor/Loki (yeah, reading a bit of Thor at the moment). 
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Steve Green 09 July, 2013, 03:27:29 PM
It's the end of Nemesis all over again...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 09 July, 2013, 04:53:24 PM
I can't wait to hear Laura's opinion on the Nemesis: Deviant Edition! :lol:
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Spikes 09 July, 2013, 04:55:02 PM
Perhaps we could get her to champion the banned Cursed Earth episodes...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 09 July, 2013, 06:07:16 PM
Wasn't aware that Rebellion have a contract for Steve Yeowell's rights so it seems Rebellion/Grant are locked forever in an eternal struggle that neither can break free of - kind of like Thor/Loki

I could see the point of the Morrison/Rebellion face-off if this was the USA in 1978 and he was Siegel & Shuster, but Zenith's a property which is worth a few grand to everyone involved. Even if a resulting court case established a legal precedent which saw everyone who had ever created a character for a UK comic publisher having all their rights returned to them, creators would only be another few grand better off and the only two UK companies still putting out comics would be bankrupted.

Coming to some kind of compromise between themselves seems like the best idea for everyone involved.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: matty_ae 09 July, 2013, 07:25:59 PM
Creators would only be a few grand better off?

The IP is worth loads more than that. Dredd is worth millions in perpetuity. Halo jones. Abc warriors. Strontium dog, rogue.  Cgi will only get cheaper. All these properties will in the end be immortalised in another media whether thats film, gaming or so app based hybrid.

If grant morrison proved the docket signing thing was invalid and it set a precedent for john wagner and alan moore they'd be immeasurably richer. Have i misunderstood your remark?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Enigmatic Dr X 09 July, 2013, 07:54:02 PM
Y'know, the lack of a written contract doesn't always, or automatically, mean there is no contract. You buy shopping - there's no written contract, but there is a contract of sale.

Fleetway demonstrably paid Morrison. (I say demonstrably as I am assuming there are records of payment having been made). Then, Zenith was published. What is not clear is the basis upon which the script was delivered, paid for and turned into a comic. But to say that there is no contract is a teeny bit misleading. It also misses the point.

For a sneaky lawyer, the issue may not even be whether or not there is a valid assignment of contract. What if Morrison DID keep copyright (or didn't assign it)? Then on what basis could the script have been used to maket the comic - keeping in mind that the comic itself is a different copyright from the script alone. Was there a licence? An implicit licence? If so, on what terms?

If Morrison never gave up the copyright in the script, then on what basis could the script actually have been used? It must have been on a licence arrangement. But, then, what were its terms? Did it allow reprinting, or not? To ask it another way: could Morrison have someone else draw Zenith? If yes, then he owns the lot. If no, then why not?

What if he is joint owner? Who with? Fleetway (now Rebellion) because Yowell gave up his art rights? What about McCarthy's input?

What if Rebellion acknowlege that the scripts are (c) to Morrison? (I wonder what the books will say?). What if they don't, but pay 50% of the profits to him?

It's all a bit of a quagmire - but there is a solution and always has been.

The most likely scenario is that a lawyer was asked to give an opinion, and the whole thing was palmed off to a QC. For a few grand, the QC's opinon could give a clear steer on issues, the risks and the viability of a re-print.  Armed with a favourable opinion, it might be sensible to print and be damned.

Speculation on my part. But if I was a sneaky lawyer, I'd tell a client to get an opinion and work from there.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 09 July, 2013, 08:01:00 PM
All this speculation seems to be missing the point that Rebellion have asserted full ownership now, and as things stand, Morrison has not opposed them.

The only important contract is the one I have with Rebellion to deliver me a book, and they had better bloody well honour it!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 09 July, 2013, 08:09:33 PM
Creators would only be a few grand better off? The IP is worth loads more than that. Dredd is worth millions in perpetuity. Halo jones. Abc warriors. Strontium dog, rogue.  Cgi will only get cheaper. All these properties will in the end be immortalised in another media whether thats film, gaming or so app based hybrid. If grant morrison proved the docket signing thing was invalid and it set a precedent for john wagner and alan moore they'd be immeasurably richer. Have i misunderstood your remark?

Judging by DNA's remarks regarding how cheaply they were able to procure the film rights for Dredd, I think Wagner, Mills and Ezquerra's three-way split of their newly-won intellectual property rights might run to the purchase of the kind of upmarket saloon car Wagner expressed a fondness for in the 1988 Judge Dredd Annual. None of them are young men.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: matty_ae 09 July, 2013, 08:47:01 PM
Disney bought Marvel for £4billion

Now i know we're not in the same league but total Dredd rights have got to be worth more than a saloon?

I would have thought half a million at least. The character probably results in 85% of book sales/rights/merchandise/licensing for rebellion.

I realise ive just generated 2 spurious made up stats but care to put a different figure on either?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Richmond Clements 09 July, 2013, 08:52:06 PM
Disney bought Marvel for £4billion

Apples. Oranges.

Dredd made (according to Box Office Mojo) $13,414,714.
The Avengers made (same source) $623,357,910

They is no way these properties are comparable.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: matty_ae 09 July, 2013, 08:57:14 PM
No.

Melon. Grape is more appropriate. They are the same thing just different sizes.

One made 60 times the other.

My valuation was proportionate.

but seriously what value would you put on the characters IP then? Cos if it goes much less there's people on here who could sell their original art and own Dredd! (I know he's not for sale etc. humour me) - in comparison to 4 billion for marvel what is dredd / and /or 2000ad stable worth?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Richmond Clements 09 July, 2013, 09:00:00 PM
but seriously what value would you put on the characters IP then?

No idea, but I can't see any businessman (which is what these people are, not fans, businessmen) is going to buy a property that has twice been a disaster at the box office? 
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 09 July, 2013, 09:07:10 PM
One made 60 times the other.


Divide 1 billion by 60 then add it to another number that is a combination of your birthday and phone-number. Post the exact amount, in cash, to me- I'll let you know if it's right.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 09 July, 2013, 09:13:45 PM
I realise ive just generated 2 spurious made up stats but care to put a different figure on either?

Don't be ridiculous. Intangibles are worth precisely what another party is willing to pay for them at the time they're in a position to make an offer.

(If, for example, Dredd 3D had been a box office juggernaut then there would now be substantially more interest than is currently the case but, absent a bidding war, rights would still only be worth what a potential buyer wanted to offer and what the potential seller wanted to let them go for.)

Cheers

Jim

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Enigmatic Dr X 10 July, 2013, 09:14:21 AM
I realise ive just generated 2 spurious made up stats but care to put a different figure on either?

Don't be ridiculous. Intangibles are worth precisely what another party is willing to pay for them at the time they're in a position to make an offer.

(If, for example, Dredd 3D had been a box office juggernaut then there would now be substantially more interest than is currently the case but, absent a bidding war, rights would still only be worth what a potential buyer wanted to offer and what the potential seller wanted to let them go for.)

Cheers

Jim

Not to mention that the value of an intellectual property is normally directly linked to its performance. Often, and especially with a risky, unknown or unproven IP, the initial fee is low but there will be stepped payments or percentages of box office, if certain performance thresholds are met.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Enigmatic Dr X 10 July, 2013, 09:15:33 AM
I can't modify the above post. I don't mean value. I mean the fee paid for rights to exploit an IP in a different medium.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: robert_ellis 13 July, 2013, 10:04:32 AM
This whole ZENITH legal battle is a ruse to hide the publication of a Complete Big Dave volume... Look at what you could have won...http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plcp&v=MAgoEGwB-Fw
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 13 July, 2013, 10:25:42 AM
Is there a legal battle though?

Big Dave collection? Hell no. That is something that should never ever have been in 2000ad. One of the lowest points in my mind.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: robert_ellis 13 July, 2013, 10:37:23 AM
I can see that if you prefer 2000ad as a pure sci-fi comic (with the odd barbarian) then Big Dave didn't fit in. But I loved it... Grant Morrison seemed amazed to see it when I got it signed.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 13 July, 2013, 10:46:04 AM
I know a lot of people liked it and it certainly should have been published but that place wasn't in 2000ad.
I suppose back then there weren't as many places it could have gone. Even the Megazine would have been more understandable to me though.

Do like the bound volumes though :)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 13 July, 2013, 11:25:34 AM
This whole ZENITH legal battle is a ruse to hide the publication of a Complete Big Dave volume... Look at what you could have won...http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plcp&v=MAgoEGwB-Fw

"You are awesome, Mark Millar. Ditto, Grant Morrison". That must represent the first interaction of any kind between those two for a decade, and I have to agree.

Another vote for the brilliance of Big Dave from me; the idea of representing Diana and Fergie as The Fat Slags alone was enough to secure the strip a place in my affections, but a zombie Bobby Moore leading the England team to World Cup glory against the Nazis seals the deal - both are great examples of the way the strip tested the logic behind the version of the world presented by tabloid culture by reifying it to the point of absurdity and destruction. Big Dave was Gillray (http://www.fulltable.com/vts/aoi/g/gillray/131.jpg), Cruikshank (https://www.countway.harvard.edu/chm/rarebooks/exhibits/satires/Central%20Board_lge.jpg) and Hogarth (http://www.victorianweb.org/painting/18c/hogarth/rp3.jpg) for the nineteen-nineties, and the idea that it didn't belong in a title that was home to strips as diametrically opposed as Halo Jones and Slaine is an odd one.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3569/3669591150_89814049cb.jpg)


: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 13 July, 2013, 11:56:43 AM



2000AD began with the assasination of Thatcher's fictional counterpart Shirley Brown, and Big Dave is closer to Bill Savage (after too many lagers) than he is to either Judge Dredd or Strontium Dog, plus, it's hilarious.  More than that, Steve Parkhouse belongs in 2000AD, on anything.


: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 13 July, 2013, 12:25:28 PM
and the idea that it didn't belong in a title that was home to strips as diametrically opposed as Halo Jones and Slaine is an odd one.

I really hope you're not comparing Big Dave to the quality of Halo Jones or Slaine!
There have been several things over the years many people have thought shouldn't be in 2000ad as they thought it was crap. Doesn't mean other people don't or can't like it.
I just think it was in the wrong place at the wrong time, would have fitted in with some of the content of the Megazine more as I've said. Maybe it being in 2000ad meant it didn't get the audience it could have had elsewhere as well.  I wonder if someone has worked out the saleability of a Big Dave collection?

Anyway talking about legal issues. Has there been anymore talk of these legal issues anywhere? We bought all the Complete Zenith's. Did that spur someone on to bring a formal complaint or anything? Or are we just expecting things to go fine until they are then released later in the year?

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 13 July, 2013, 12:28:29 PM
I thought Big Dave was not very funny, with a broad streak of anti-English sentiment. Not that I ever read it again, so my memory may be hazy.

Still, it's a bit odd it's not in print. Wasn't the strip creator-owned?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: dweezil2 13 July, 2013, 01:23:27 PM
Big Dave is as gloriously irreverent today as it was when it was first published and is as much a cultural time capsule as a strip like D.R and Quinch that preceded it and grubby urban horror show like Cadlegrave that followed it and as such deserved a place in 2000ad in my opinion.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: radiator 13 July, 2013, 02:17:21 PM
Wonder if the Queen has read Big Dave by Mark Millar CBE?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 13 July, 2013, 03:12:51 PM
Big Dave (had) a broad streak of anti-English sentiment.

Huh?

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 13 July, 2013, 04:02:56 PM
I never got Big Dave. To me, it felt like a third-rate Viz strip and was wildly out of place in 2000 AD. I'd happily have Parkhouse back in 2000 AD every week, though. (Also, at least Big Dave wasn't as bad, to my mind, as that dire garbage about a trucker—"The Driver"—that ran in Toxic, that a lot of people inexplicably seemed to love.)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 13 July, 2013, 04:25:45 PM
I concur - "The Driver" was bloody awful!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 13 July, 2013, 05:13:39 PM
2000AD began with the assassination of Thatcher's fictional counterpart Shirley Brown, and Big Dave is closer to Bill Savage (after too many lagers) than he is to either Judge Dredd or Strontium Dog, plus, it's hilarious.  More than that, Steve Parkhouse belongs in 2000AD, on anything.

Aye, it seemed to me at the time there was a direct parallel to be drawn between Pat Mills's truck driving Cockney geezer and Manchester's hardest man - and the reaction of some readers to Big Dave as an uncouth and vulgar strip they didn't want to see in their comic seems eerily similar to the views of IPC's board of stuffy big wigs, who Mills describes as engaged in an eternal struggle to make everything in 2000ad as safe and anodyne as everything else they published.

I'd only ever seen Parkhouse on The Bo Jeffries Saga (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/Complete_Bojeffries_Saga_Cover.jpg) and the last parts of Full Mental Jacket (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EEhzve_JxJA/TpJuNskrJGI/AAAAAAAAAPs/TXUUSALvFcg/s400/bojeffries.jpg), so the confident solidity of his figures and the expressiveness of their actions, and the easy way he handled big visuals such as the British Army being turned into 'mincing nancy boys' by Saddam Hussein's massive cock-shaped love gun, were a revelation to me. The low opinion of 2000ad readers Parkhouse expresses in David Bishop's Thrillpower Overload doesn't lead me to hope he'll share his prodigious talents with us again anytime soon. Boo.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 13 July, 2013, 05:24:40 PM

In a vain attempt to get the Zenith thread back to talking about Zenith, someone posted a pic of Morrison's eighties roughs for the character in the comment section of Laura Sneddon's last piece on the ownership dispute. The character looks very familiar:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BOgXgdGCYAA7su5.jpg:large)(http://24.media.tumblr.com/CJoLlYKtgaxml7ngf0xbf3Hn_400.jpg)

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Bat King 13 July, 2013, 05:51:41 PM
I didn't like Big Dave, never re-read it. Don't think I want to re-read it either.

that said... if they print it I might read it...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Steve Green 13 July, 2013, 05:55:28 PM
2000AD began with the assassination of Thatcher's fictional counterpart Shirley Brown, and Big Dave is closer to Bill Savage (after too many lagers) than he is to either Judge Dredd or Strontium Dog, plus, it's hilarious.  More than that, Steve Parkhouse belongs in 2000AD, on anything.

Aye, it seemed to me at the time there was a direct parallel to be drawn between Pat Mills's truck driving Cockney geezer and Manchester's hardest man - and the reaction of some readers to Big Dave as an uncouth and vulgar strip they didn't want to see in their comic seems eerily similar to the views of IPC's board of stuffy big wigs, who Mills describes as engaged in an eternal struggle to make everything in 2000ad as safe and anodyne as everything else they published.

I'd only ever seen Parkhouse on The Bo Jeffries Saga (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/Complete_Bojeffries_Saga_Cover.jpg) and the last parts of Full Mental Jacket (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EEhzve_JxJA/TpJuNskrJGI/AAAAAAAAAPs/TXUUSALvFcg/s400/bojeffries.jpg), so the confident solidity of his figures and the expressiveness of their actions, and the easy way he handled big visuals such as the British Army being turned into 'mincing nancy boys' by Saddam Hussein's massive cock-shaped love gun, were a revelation to me. The low opinion of 2000ad readers Parkhouse expresses in David Bishop's Thrillpower Overload doesn't lead me to hope he'll share his prodigious talents with us again anytime soon. Boo.

I don't quite get that - one page Morrison is saying that most people liked it, and then Parkhouse writing off the readership on the other.

Presumably at this time, feedback is only going to be via e-mail? I don't know why creators or editorial put so much stock in people who were writing in.

I don't really remember what I felt about Big Dave at the time - seemed entertaining enough.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mark Taylor 13 July, 2013, 07:08:41 PM
I never got Big Dave. To me, it felt like a third-rate Viz strip and was wildly out of place in 2000 AD. I'd happily have Parkhouse back in 2000 AD every week, though. (Also, at least Big Dave wasn't as bad, to my mind, as that dire garbage about a trucker—"The Driver"—that ran in Toxic, that a lot of people inexplicably seemed to love.)

My sentiments exactly at the time, "What is a Viz strip doing in 2000AD?", basically.

Big Dave slightly warped version of reality didn't make it's appearance in 2000AD appropriate any more than Slaine's streak of irreverent humour would justify its inclusion in Viz.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 13 July, 2013, 07:33:48 PM
Big Dave was certainly no more incongruous than other 2000AD oddities. Fiends of the Eastern Front, anyone?

2000AD has always been broader and more eclectic than a simple SF anthology, and if it can find room in its pages for Fiends, Summer Magic, Sooner or Later and Zenith, then it can find room for something as wilfully different as Big Dave. I thought Dave was certainly better than the cretinous Maniac 5 which ran alongside it and which --ostensibly-- was more of a fit for 2000AD.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 13 July, 2013, 08:04:21 PM
I thought Dave was certainly better than the cretinous Maniac 5 which ran alongside it and which --ostensibly-- was more of a fit for 2000AD.



Yep, for me Maniac 5 and other stuff like Urban Strike showing up in 2000AD made me flick back to the cover to make sure I had 'the prog' in my hands and not some quick knock-out from Eclipse comics. That didn't happen with Big Dave; it looked like it fit.



: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 13 July, 2013, 08:04:49 PM
My sentiments exactly at the time, "What is a Viz strip doing in 2000AD?", basically. Big Dave slightly warped version of reality didn't make it's appearance in 2000AD appropriate any more than Slaine's streak of irreverent humour would justify its inclusion in Viz.

This week's 2000ad features a werewolf kidnap thriller, a cosmological/teleological/eschatological superhero saga, a historical zombie apocalypse siege story, and a comedic gangster melodrama - I'm not sure that leaves many genres which still qualify as not our kind of thing. Conversely, the Gary Bushell version of the world made manifest in Big Dave wasn't any less of a fantasy than that presented by Disaster 1990, Mach One, and Summer's Magic - it featured zombies, robots, voodoo and ray guns.

 
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: dweezil2 13 July, 2013, 08:11:48 PM
I never got Big Dave. To me, it felt like a third-rate Viz strip and was wildly out of place in 2000 AD. I'd happily have Parkhouse back in 2000 AD every week, though. (Also, at least Big Dave wasn't as bad, to my mind, as that dire garbage about a trucker—"The Driver"—that ran in Toxic, that a lot of people inexplicably seemed to love.)

My sentiments exactly at the time, "What is a Viz strip doing in 2000AD?", basically.

Big Dave slightly warped version of reality didn't make it's appearance in 2000AD appropriate any more than Slaine's streak of irreverent humour would justify its inclusion in Viz.

Case for the defence:

Button Man.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 13 July, 2013, 08:53:46 PM
Button Man.
OBJECTION! Button Man wasn't rubbish. :D
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 13 July, 2013, 09:15:00 PM
Button Man.
OBJECTION! Button Man wasn't rubbish. :D

If Tharg had only printed stories which weren't rubbish, 2000ad's publication schedule would have been annual instead of weekly. We're all fond of shite stories which have seen print over the years, but everybody's fond of different shite stories from everyone else.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: dweezil2 13 July, 2013, 09:51:43 PM
Button Man.
OBJECTION! Button Man wasn't rubbish. :D

If Tharg had only printed stories which weren't rubbish, 2000ad's publication schedule would have been annual instead of weekly. We're all fond of shite stories which have seen print over the years, but everybody's fond of different shite stories from everyone else.


Case closed!    ;)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 13 July, 2013, 10:01:03 PM
I'm not sure that leaves many genres which still qualify as not our kind of thing.

Nothing to do with genre. 2000ad can have everything. It's just that we all like to pick out the crap as we see it.
I really liked Zippy Couriers ;)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mark Taylor 14 July, 2013, 06:57:17 PM
Button Man.
OBJECTION! Button Man wasn't rubbish. :D

I second Button Man not being rubbish!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: I, Cosh 15 July, 2013, 12:49:17 AM
and the idea that it didn't belong in a title that was home to strips as diametrically opposed as Halo Jones and Slaine is an odd one.
I really hope you're not comparing Big Dave to the quality of Halo Jones or Slaine!
Indeed. Big Dave is miles better than Halo Jones. Also better than Maniac 5, Slaughterbowl, Summer Magic, Babe Race 2000, Shit Rogue Trooper, Harlem Heroes and any number of other strips which were running at the same time. But not Really & Truly.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 15 July, 2013, 10:01:13 AM
Not sure if serious...or just Cosh.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 15 July, 2013, 04:55:20 PM

The Cosh started a new job this morning; I expect he's been excitable and showing off in front of new people all day. Depends on your point of view though, dunnit? Big Dave's certainly funnier than Halo Jones, if that's your priority, and it didn't take as long to find its feet as Anal Moore's masterpiece did either. Some of Book One's a bit boring ... don't hate me, the rest is brilliant.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: matty_ae 20 July, 2013, 07:10:46 PM
T-shirt arrives.
Seems to fulfill the same purpose as the marvelman t-shirts in SDCC three years back to state the copyright and trademark.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 03 August, 2013, 04:34:43 PM


BleedingCool- determined to make a story out of this (http://www.bleedingcool.com/forums/front-page-comic-news/73114-readying-zenith.html).

I understand that there are legal moves afoot from Scotland.

Everyone stand around in the playground and start chanting "Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!"
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 03 August, 2013, 06:11:12 PM
I give Bleeding Cool zero credence, they will say literally anything to get attention.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 03 August, 2013, 07:07:08 PM
I agree. But also if there wasn't any legal action when it was announced, and went on sale and eventually sold out is it likely to be happening now?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Steve Green 03 August, 2013, 07:18:13 PM
Who knows?

Not us for sure. Maybe Morrison found his copyright paperwork wedged behind a ton of lost Dr Who episodes.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 03 August, 2013, 07:48:48 PM
I agree. But also if there wasn't any legal action when it was announced, and went on sale and eventually sold out is it likely to be happening now?

All that's happened so far is that the books have been solicited, folk have placed their orders, and the proofs have come back from the printers - there's plenty of time between now and December for everyone's lawyers to increase their billable hours. Like Mr Green (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&docid=mxeGkFV0Q78KTM&tbnid=kehSr85xjNCA5M:&ved=0CAUQjBwwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgeekadelphia.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F05%2Freservoir-dogs.jpg&ei=VU39UdeCBYu2PfiXgKgJ&psig=AFQjCNG_CGnZtokQKVvv1ZSt0bcMhzNxow&ust=1375641301148033) says, nobody really knows what's going to happen, and I expect that includes Rich Johnston.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 03 August, 2013, 09:25:17 PM
Worst case scenario is that GM succeeds in blocking publication. He would have effectively no chance of mounting a rival book (artist's rights are firmly with Rebellion) so it would be lost for a generation.

I could only see lawyers benefitting from any such legal moves, whomever wins, and I very much hope they are avoided.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 04 August, 2013, 12:26:35 AM
Oh there certainly 'could' be something at any point until the books are in our sweaty palms, I just would have expected it before now if there was really something in it.
One way or another this issue will be dealt with by the end of the year.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 07 August, 2013, 11:32:53 AM
Well, I received my Zenith tee-shirt in the mail today. Though no Complete Zenith graphic novel.

Is it even in print yet?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Steve Green 07 August, 2013, 12:06:53 PM
No.

December.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 07 August, 2013, 12:13:18 PM
When (if at all) can we expect to here/ see production updates?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: klute 07 August, 2013, 02:49:59 PM
When (if at all) can we expect to here/ see production updates?

Ditto
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 07 August, 2013, 02:51:59 PM
http://instagram.com/p/cg3t1PqpI-/
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: O Lucky Stevie! 08 August, 2013, 10:26:35 AM
I could only see lawyers benefitting from any such legal moves

That'll be Mrs Morrison then.  ;)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: matty_ae 18 August, 2013, 10:48:40 AM
I think she 's actually a Corporate Insurance Broker who dresses like Barberella!

While im being random listen to the podcasts x 3 fat man on batman - kevin smith with grant morrison
Amazing stuff
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 18 August, 2013, 11:42:34 AM
I've just had an e-mail from Colin at Rebellion.  It informed me that my order for a second copy of Zenith has been cancelled as the book was limited to one per household (guess I should have read the smallprint). I had ordered a second copy to send on to a fellow boarder who, for one reason or another, couldn't order a copy himself. Now, I can't be the only person in the 1,000 who ordered more than one so are those 'extra' copies going to be made available in store?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: COMMANDO FORCES 18 August, 2013, 12:19:34 PM
The old speculators ruse  ;)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 18 August, 2013, 12:25:30 PM
I'll 'speculator' you, Mister! (shakes fist)  :lol:
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 19 August, 2013, 12:20:23 PM
I've just had an e-mail from Colin at Rebellion.  It informed me that my order for a second copy of Zenith has been cancelled as the book was limited to one per household (guess I should have read the smallprint). I had ordered a second copy to send on to a fellow boarder who, for one reason or another, couldn't order a copy himself. Now, I can't be the only person in the 1,000 who ordered more than one so are those 'extra' copies going to be made available in store?

Was the fellow boarder Mr. Edward Bay ?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 19 August, 2013, 12:38:10 PM
I try and help a brother out and I get baseless accusations thrown my way. Screw you guys, I'm going home...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Link Prime 19 August, 2013, 12:42:06 PM
I try and help a brother out and I get baseless accusations thrown my way. Screw you guys, I'm going home...

Any truth to the rumour you've so many copies of Prog 1208 that you use it as toilet paper?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 19 August, 2013, 12:47:38 PM
I try and help a brother out and I get baseless accusations thrown my way. Screw you guys, I'm going home...

Any truth to the rumour you've so many copies of Prog 1208 that you use it as toilet paper?

To be fair, that one's true!  :-[
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ming 19 August, 2013, 01:08:03 PM
I try and help a brother out and I get baseless accusations thrown my way. Screw you guys, I'm going home...

Any truth to the rumour you've so many copies of Prog 1208 that you use it as toilet paper?

To be fair, that one's true!  :-[

You could have been sensible and used earlier sought-after issues for that; the 'banned' Progs, f'rinstance.  I'd think the bog paper aspect of those would be more welcome compared to the more recent shiny paper stock :lol:
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Steve Green 19 August, 2013, 01:17:44 PM
mutters something about sweetcorn...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 19 August, 2013, 01:21:57 PM
mutters something about sweetcorn...

My nominee for Post of the Year.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ming 19 August, 2013, 01:29:32 PM
mutters something about sweetcorn...

Yeah, that stuff plays havoc with my biorhythms.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Steve Green 19 August, 2013, 04:05:09 PM
HoHoHo (TM General Mills)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dunk! 19 August, 2013, 06:59:25 PM
I ordered a second copy as an Xmas gift so I guess that copy will be available again soon.

Hurry, it'll be snapped up in days.

Dunk!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: sheldipez 20 August, 2013, 06:11:15 PM
Some more stirring reporting from bleedingcool on Zenith (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/08/20/grant-morrison-to-talk-about-zenith-in-tomorrows-guardian-newspaper/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: klute 20 August, 2013, 06:15:21 PM
Some more stirring reporting from bleedingcool on Zenith (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/08/20/grant-morrison-to-talk-about-zenith-in-tomorrows-guardian-newspaper/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)

Should be interesting reading can't wait
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 20 August, 2013, 06:27:43 PM
Well that was fucking pointless wasn't it!  :lol:
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ming 20 August, 2013, 06:48:45 PM
Some more stirring reporting from bleedingcool on Zenith (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/08/20/grant-morrison-to-talk-about-zenith-in-tomorrows-guardian-newspaper/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)

I'd suggest saving yourselves 30 seconds of pointless reading; skip that link - just check the Grauniad tomorrow instead.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 20 August, 2013, 08:28:22 PM
Is the news that news is possibly on the way really news... but then much as I read it and enjoy Bleeding Cool Rich Johnson is always at pains to point out he's not a journalist... it shows.
: Re: Re: The Complete Zenith
: glassstanley 21 August, 2013, 08:22:05 AM
From The Grauniad:

"Those early works, from Gideon Stargrave to Captain Clyde, are sadly unavailable in print today, but one particular title from the late 1980s made headlines earlier this year. Rebellion, the publisher of 2000AD, announced it was planning to reprint Zenith, Morrison's subversive superhero strip. Shallow, sarcastic and frequently used as a way for Morrison to criticise the Conservative party, the hero's five-year run in 2000AD ended in 1992. Zenith has been out of print ever since, due to a legal dispute over who owns the rights. So Rebellion's announcement of a £100 preorder-only hardback complete collection raised rather a lot of eyebrows, with Morrison unable to comment. But, choosing his words carefully, the writer is now able to talk a little about what's happening.
"Well, it's very simple," he begins with a wince. "We, uh, we spent five grand on lawyers' fees. They sent [Rebellion] letters. We were very keen to discuss it and we've never heard back from them. All I can say is that we tried to get into a discussion with them and they just didn't reply. I don't know what to do at this stage." "
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 21 August, 2013, 08:36:47 AM
Hmmmmmmm.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 21 August, 2013, 08:42:57 AM
Well that reveals very little, as would be expected. Lets start to guess how Rich Johnson reports it. I'll go with

Headline: Rebellion refuse dialogue with Grant Morrison over Zenith reprints

and content to include "Grant reached out to the publisher" "Rebellion refused to engage in discussion" and the obligatory "I here rumours of more action coming" and "expect updates to follow."

Tordalback with your genius for mimicking writing style I say to you get at it and out Rich Rich.
: Re: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 21 August, 2013, 08:43:38 AM
From The Grauniad:

All I can say is that we tried to get into a discussion with them and they just didn't reply. I don't know what to do at this stage." "

No point getting into a discussion if you believe you own the copyright, I suppose...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ming 21 August, 2013, 08:54:10 AM
In case it's not immediately obvious from the title of the article, the link below is to the explosive Zenith Wonder Woman Grauniad piece...

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/aug/21/grant-morrison-wonder-woman

Basically, for The Zzzenith stuff, skip to the end.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 21 August, 2013, 09:00:12 AM
He seems genuinely upset, not least on behalf of those fans on a tight budget who will find £100 rather stiff.

Zenith is 480 pages, hardback, limited run.  That's roughly equivalent page count to a putative 3 volumes of All Star Superman in hardback, which would cost you about £60, new, and will sell vastly greater quantities.  So it seems about right. 

Somewhat less upsetting for the fans than not being able to get it at all, mind
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 21 August, 2013, 09:13:35 AM
Oh, please!

"Poor old Grant, all he's ever wanted was to put out a mass-market volume of Zenith priced so that the fans could afford it but heartless Rebellion rebuffed his advances, preferring instead to put out this over-priced tome to swell their coffers."

I genuinely don't know how Sneddon has the gall to put her name to anything described as 'journalism' where Morrison is concerned. And I say that as a huge fan of Grant's work.

Bah.

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 21 August, 2013, 09:39:06 AM
If a few letters that had no result are what he spent £5000 on he was ripped off.
Mind you if he has no proof, no justification for stopping anything there's nothing any lawyer could do.
Or he's lying about it all. Who knows.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 21 August, 2013, 10:14:37 AM

The publishers reached a compromise with everyone else who created original strips for them under the contested terms on which Morrison's grievance is based. If either of the parties were particularly concerned about making the work available to readers at reasonable price they would have settled their differences long ago under the same terms which mean we're not reading Pat Mills presents 2000ad and The John Wagner Megazine.

I presume those terms involved a big bag of cash in exchange for assigning their copyright to the publisher, and I assume Morrison's problem was that the bag of cash on offer (which Yeowell accepted) just wasn't big enough. It'll cost Morrison more than five grand in lawyers' fees when he continues his principled stand and tries to assert his ownership of DC/Vertigo work for hire creations Seaguy, Sebastian O, Kill Your Boyfriend and The Mystery Play.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 21 August, 2013, 11:06:46 AM
...we're not reading Pat Mills presents 2000ad and The John Wagner Megazine.

Those titles do give me a pleasurable tingle in the thrill-receptors...

Free publicity aside, what really annoys me here is seeing 2000AD cast in the role of intellectual robber baron in a major news source, without even a whiff of balance.  I can't blame Grant for putting his best foot forward, but either Laura Sneddon or her editor is surely under some obligation to at least mention Rebellion's position.

Just pawn your bauble of feudal obeisance Grant old boy, should cover a few C&Ds.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin Zeal 21 August, 2013, 11:24:47 AM
...we're not reading Pat Mills presents 2000ad and The John Wagner Megazine.

Those titles do give me a pleasurable tingle in the thrill-receptors...

Free publicity aside, what really annoys me here is seeing 2000AD cast in the role of intellectual robber baron in a major news source, without even a whiff of balance.  I can't blame Grant for putting his best foot forward, but either Laura Sneddon or her editor is surely under some obligation to at least mention Rebellion's position.

Just pawn your bauble of feudal obeisance Grant old boy, should cover a few C&Ds.

The article does raise the question of whether the commissioning editor knew that Laura Sneddon is a friend of Grant's. I realise it's a piece primarily to promote the Wonder Woman graphic novel but Sneddon and the editor should have known that the Zenith/Rebellion aspect required some balance and further background to the story.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: klute 21 August, 2013, 11:35:14 AM
...we're not reading Pat Mills presents 2000ad and The John Wagner Megazine.

Those titles do give me a pleasurable tingle in the thrill-receptors...

Free publicity aside, what really annoys me here is seeing 2000AD cast in the role of intellectual robber baron in a major news source, without even a whiff of balance.  I can't blame Grant for putting his best foot forward, but either Laura Sneddon or her editor is surely under some obligation to at least mention Rebellion's position.

Just pawn your bauble of feudal obeisance Grant old boy, should cover a few C&Ds.

I suspect Rebellion's position doesn't matter to either party's..........i find it hard to believe the "fans" are GM'S worry (Understandably) money amongst other things will play into this thought's regarding Zenith.BUT as a Fan of his Zenith work i'm selfish i want a book/collected edition instead of hunting down overpriced unfinished Titan/Zenith series.

£100 is alot to pay for the book, am i willing to chance that Rebellion or anyone else will release the series? NO i'm not. I'm a customer not an artist so my feeling's regarding the matter will be different to Grant/Rebellions but at the end of the day i'm a fan and surely without me/us there is no career for Grant or Rebellion so surely it's in the interest for all party's to come to some agreement that benefits all of us.

At the end of the day the customer/fan has to come first otherwise where are the other 2?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 21 August, 2013, 11:49:58 AM
Free publicity aside, what really annoys me here is seeing 2000AD cast in the role of intellectual robber baron in a major news source, without even a whiff of balance.

It's troubling, especially when the implication, by the author, is that Rebellion care nothing of its base but are just out to make a short term, fast buck. They're not exactly making a killing from the limited edition £100 hardback. I can see both sides and these things can be a battle of willls but pieces like this don't help either case.

"Well, it's very simple," he begins with a wince.

Well, it isn't really, is it, and the article should point that out.


: Re: The Complete Zenith
: klute 21 August, 2013, 11:52:29 AM
Free publicity aside, what really annoys me here is seeing 2000AD cast in the role of intellectual robber baron in a major news source, without even a whiff of balance.

It's troubling, especially when the implication, by the author, is that Rebellion care nothing of its base but are just out to make a short term, fast buck. They're not exactly making a killing from the limited edition £100 hardback. I can see both sides and these things can be a battle of willls but pieces like this don't help either case.

"Well, it's very simple," he begins with a wince.

Well, it isn't really, is it, and the article should point that out.

I assume rightly or wrongly that as their is no mention of Rebellion saying "No Comment" or giving comment that either legally they can't or they were never approached????
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 21 August, 2013, 11:53:11 AM
At the end of the day the customer/fan has to come first otherwise where are the other 2?

With self-publishing you don't even need the customer to create the product.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: klute 21 August, 2013, 12:35:31 PM
At the end of the day the customer/fan has to come first otherwise where are the other 2?

With self-publishing you don't even need the customer to create the product.

Indeed but without a customer to buy the product it's pointless as there is no money involved.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 21 August, 2013, 01:24:38 PM
at the end of the day i'm a fan and surely without me/us there is no career for Grant or Rebellion so surely it's in the interest for all party's to come to some agreement that benefits all of us.

I'd imagine the legal shenanigans of the nineties just provided Morrison and Millar with a handy way of ensuring Fleetway didn't make a killing flooding the US market with cheapo reprints of their not-very-good early work on the back of their newfound fame. Morrison's name and reputation are so well established now that can't be a concern anymore, and in the case of Zenith there isn't any worry about the quality of the material.

I'm sure it's in the best interests of both parties to cut some kind of deal where Morrison gets a handsome share of any reprint profits and Rebellion agree to treat the character and the existing material in the same way as Halo Jones - rather than farming Zenith out as a house character to up and coming writers looking for a break, as they appear to be doing with another of his creations. That seems a bit cheeky, but I suppose it makes a point.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 21 August, 2013, 02:39:57 PM
...we're not reading Pat Mills presents 2000ad and The John Wagner Megazine.

Those titles do give me a pleasurable tingle in the thrill-receptors...

Free publicity aside, what really annoys me here is seeing 2000AD cast in the role of intellectual robber baron in a major news source, without even a whiff of balance.  I can't blame Grant for putting his best foot forward, but either Laura Sneddon or her editor is surely under some obligation to at least mention Rebellion's position.

Just pawn your bauble of feudal obeisance Grant old boy, should cover a few C&Ds.

Balance in the Guardian? Next you will be asking for well written articles without cheap bias!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 21 August, 2013, 02:42:38 PM
Miller wants ownership of Babe Race 2000!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 21 August, 2013, 02:54:21 PM
He can have it!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 21 August, 2013, 03:43:58 PM
He says he is not taking it without a fight!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 21 August, 2013, 04:28:51 PM
I'll pay him to take it!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Steve Green 21 August, 2013, 05:51:48 PM
Kickstarter?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: klute 27 August, 2013, 11:04:17 AM
Any new status updates regarding the book?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 27 August, 2013, 11:21:44 AM
Any new status updates regarding the book?

Why would there be?

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: klute 27 August, 2013, 12:57:30 PM
Any new status updates regarding the book?

Why would there be?

Cheers

Jim
Why wouldn't there?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 27 August, 2013, 01:11:10 PM
Why wouldn't there?

Because nothing has happened that might warrant an update, obviously. Or are you suggesting that once a fortnight, someone from Rebellion comes here and posts: "We've still sold them all. Morrison's 'cease & desist' order remains a figment of Rich Johnston's imagination. We still plan to publish the book in December"?

Unless, of course, you have some information to the contrary?

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: klute 27 August, 2013, 01:57:45 PM
Why wouldn't there?

Because nothing has happened that might warrant an update, obviously. Or are you suggesting that once a fortnight, someone from Rebellion comes here and posts: "We've still sold them all. Morrison's 'cease & desist' order remains a figment of Rich Johnston's imagination. We still plan to publish the book in December"?

Unless, of course, you have some information to the contrary?

Cheers

Jim

Nope no information not a jot infact that was the reason for the question. I'm not expecting Rebellion to post ever 2 weeks with an update.
On the same hand if there is any information to be had surely this would be the best place to ask? Just because i haven't heard anything it doesn't mean you or anyone else here hasn't.
I didn't realise i was unreasonable asking the question. and it would seem in asking the question i have rubbed you up the wrong way (If not that's how it come's across)
I apologise.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 27 August, 2013, 02:05:05 PM
Good God — there's no need to apologise, particularly not to me. I'm just baffled as to why a lack of updates would lead you to any conclusion other than there being nothing to report…!

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: klute 27 August, 2013, 02:13:17 PM
Good God — there's no need to apologise, particularly not to me. I'm just baffled as to why a lack of updates would lead you to any conclusion other than there being nothing to report…!

Cheers

Jim

Just plain old impatience.and the hope that there is something floating about the internet waiting to be posted again simply down to the impatience.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Arkwright99 27 August, 2013, 03:16:22 PM
I'm just baffled as to why a lack of updates would lead you to any conclusion other than there being nothing to report…!
Possibly Grant's comment in Laura Sneddon's Guardian interview the other week that Rebellion haven't responded to his lawyers' letters might lead some people to speculate that (by - allegedly - not engaging with GM) Rebellion are deliberately waiting for GM to 'put up or shut up' and apply for an injunction (or something)?  :-\
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 27 August, 2013, 03:28:39 PM
Possibly Grant's comment in Laura Sneddon's Guardian interview the other week that Rebellion haven't responded to his lawyers' letters might lead some people to speculate that (by - allegedly - not engaging with GM) Rebellion are deliberately waiting for GM to 'put up or shut up' and apply for an injunction (or something)?

It would take a fairly determined Rich-Johnston-esque reading of Morrison's brief remarks to interpret them as anything other than a past tense reference to something that's done with. I struggle to believe that anyone's advising Grant that the rights to Zenith are unrealised pot of gold, so I suspect —on the basis of absolutely no inside knowledge, I should stress— that he's written it off as a hole into which it's not worth throwing huge sums of cash on an ongoing basis.

As sauchie has observed previously, the resolution to all these copyright/contract disputes is essentially a bag of cash and everything else is quibbling about the size of the bag. There comes a point, I would imagine, where the maximum value of that bag is exceeded by the potential legal spend…

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: GordonR 27 August, 2013, 03:30:47 PM
I think Grant's "I don't know what to do at this stage" comment tells you everything you need to know on which way the wind's blowing on the put up or shut up score.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: robprosser 23 September, 2013, 03:51:25 PM
Not long now it seems

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/09/23/zenith-hardcover-to-ship-in-about-two-weeks/
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 23 September, 2013, 04:33:12 PM
Shiny :)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: credo 23 September, 2013, 04:50:58 PM
Looks lovely. Glad to be getting it early.

Don't you love the way that bleeding cool are essentially acting like kids in the school yard shouting "fight, fight, fight!"

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 23 September, 2013, 04:55:49 PM
Don't you love the way that bleeding cool are essentially acting like kids in the school yard shouting "fight, fight, fight!"

Well they were given the exclusive so....
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Greg M. 23 September, 2013, 04:58:58 PM
Bleedingcool would love nothing more than a big public spat - every single Zenith article has had some kind of final line where the site indicates its desperation to see blood. I'm glad such a thing has conspicuously failed to materialise and that everyone actually involved is acting with the kind of dignity Bleedingcool frequently lacks.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 23 September, 2013, 05:46:36 PM
bleedingchildish
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dragonfly 23 September, 2013, 06:16:31 PM
Wow, didn't expect too get this that early. I'm seriously looking forward to this, haven't read any Zenith for two decades! Would never have known as I wouldn't look at Bleeding Cool normally and from the looks of things it's a good thing, they sound like a bunch of shit stirrers.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Professor Bear 23 September, 2013, 06:20:59 PM
Not really defending the Bleeding Cool method here - it's a bit late as I was slagging them off on Twitter for the balance of their reportage mere days ago - but I imagine they're trying to distance themselves from existing "comics journalism" by being your more traditional muckrakers, as if you think the person who wrote that "comics fans should be thankful to Dan DiDio" piece did so with a straight face you need your head examined.

The articles are shameless clickbait pure and simple, but I guess they have their place in creating contrast to advertiser-led sites like CBR, Newsarama and Comicsalliance, which tend to be largely reverent and uncritical unless they're posting articles by writers with a brand to sell (ie: "my hook is that I am a nerd/feminist/educated non-white dude and I have the following issue with How Things Are" - though even those articles follow the Bleeding Cool method of clickbait-ery by goading their regular commentators into multiple views and posts to drive the site stats up.  As you can imagine, I find this makes the straight-faced lambasting of Rich Johnston - sometimes unnecessarily personal - all the more hilariously hypocritical.

Basically I am saying "at least it isn't the Daily Mail website."  BC is trying to stir up a nerd ruck because it knows it is on the internet - when it starts trying to criminalise homosexuality and post photos of 8 year old girls it has purchased from her mother's stalker, then I'd start to worry.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Enigmatic Dr X 23 September, 2013, 07:27:14 PM

I struggle to believe that anyone's advising Grant that the rights to Zenith are unrealised pot of gold, so I suspect —on the basis of absolutely no inside knowledge, I should stress— that he's written it off as a hole into which it's not worth throwing huge sums of cash on an ongoing basis.

As sauchie has observed previously, the resolution to all these copyright/contract disputes is essentially a bag of cash and everything else is quibbling about the size of the bag. There comes a point, I would imagine, where the maximum value of that bag is exceeded by the potential legal spend…

Cheers

Jim

This.

Like Jim, I have no "inside knowledge." But what I do know is that where there is potential for a scrap like this then one side (Rebellion?) would obtain the opinion of a decent QC. The cost, on a corporate scale, is negligible to low; certainly less than five figures, and probably less than five grand.

Armed with a decent opinion, one side (Rebellion?) willy-waves it at the other. The other side (Morrison?) then has to decide whether or not to pony up for a counter opinion in the face of advice from a QC that he is in the wrong. Sure, you can get your own QC to do it - but do you really want to take that risk?

So many legal disputes go nowhere because - believe it or not - common sense prevails!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Enigmatic Dr X 23 September, 2013, 07:28:38 PM
ADDENDUM: It's more likely to be a bun fight over the slice of the pie, behind closed doors, than the Few Good Men battle that Bleeding Cool seems to be agitating for.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 23 September, 2013, 08:07:23 PM
the Few Good Men battle that Bleeding Cool seems to be agitating for.

"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TOOTH!"

:-)

Cheers!

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 23 September, 2013, 08:20:11 PM
 :lol:
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dark Jimbo 23 September, 2013, 08:29:48 PM
 :lol:
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 23 September, 2013, 11:11:50 PM
"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TOOTH!"

Not amused - I have woken one of the children with my hearty guffawing.  I will be sending you the alcohol bill, Mister Campbell.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 24 September, 2013, 08:09:30 AM
"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TOOTH!"

Not amused - I have woken one of the children with my hearty guffawing.  I will be sending you the alcohol bill, Mister Campbell.

While I fully understand the need to force alcohol onto children to get them back into a drunken slumber its best not to mention it on a public forum. Social services really don't approve!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 24 September, 2013, 08:38:30 AM
 :lol:
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dragonfly 24 September, 2013, 10:31:23 AM
You really give your children alcohol? Wow! Will you be my daddy?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 24 September, 2013, 10:54:23 AM
You really give your children alcohol?

Only the cheap stuff.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ming 27 September, 2013, 12:21:58 PM
As posted in the commissions thread...  Any suggestions for the identity of the lady at three o'clock?  (She's not Spook or Ruby.)

Just in time for the bumper book of Zenith fun to arrive, here's a recent commission.  Steve Yeowell revisiting pretty much my favourite scene from Phase III.

This, plus a few versions / pencils are now in my CAF gallery and I'll add a larger scan soon.  I've also added the names of all the characters but one; any ideas who the mystery lady at three o'clock could be?

http://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1055853

(http://i.imgur.com/6VdZVSc.jpg)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: sheldipez 04 October, 2013, 12:01:29 PM
@jock4twenty (jock) -
Got the complete Zenith from @2000AD in the mail. Beautiful book pic.twitter.com/QFIUFM9KOw

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BVudLybIYAALor5.jpg)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin Zeal 04 October, 2013, 12:10:30 PM
I'm now fighting the urge to walk out of work to go home and check if my copy has arrived.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Molch-R 04 October, 2013, 12:33:39 PM
I'm now fighting the urge to walk out of work to go home and check if my copy has arrived.

It won't have. Should arrive next week.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin Zeal 04 October, 2013, 12:42:54 PM
Cheers. I did think it was more likely to be some early issue for droids as the date was clearly changed to next week. It was nice to hope though.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 04 October, 2013, 01:06:00 PM
@jock4twenty (jock) -
Got the complete Zenith from @2000AD in the mail. Beautiful book pic.twitter.com/QFIUFM9KOw

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BVudLybIYAALor5.jpg)

He has very thin legs.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 04 October, 2013, 01:39:11 PM
He has very thin legs.

It was acceptable in the '80s.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin Zeal 04 October, 2013, 01:41:28 PM
He was the world's first ever hipster.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 04 October, 2013, 02:08:26 PM
He was the world's first ever hipster.

Nah, that was some guy you wouldn't have heard of.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 04 October, 2013, 02:08:58 PM
That does look lovely.
Need to make even more space for this and the next Carlos hardback :P
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 04 October, 2013, 02:48:10 PM
He was the world's first ever hipster.

Nah, that was some guy you wouldn't have heard of.


John Wagner invented Hipsters.


(https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/61423_10151883265337386_794954722_n.jpg)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: dweezil2 04 October, 2013, 04:44:33 PM
That's one sexy looking book!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 04 October, 2013, 05:09:07 PM
He has very thin legs.

It was acceptable in the '80s.

At least Zenith isn't rocking those leg warmers Brendan McCarthy lumbered him with.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mattofthespurs 04 October, 2013, 05:42:24 PM
Does every order include flowers?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: klute 04 October, 2013, 06:57:17 PM
Does every order include flowers?

Dunno about flowers but i wouldn't mind key's the the playboy mansion
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JamesC 04 October, 2013, 11:52:06 PM
Skinny legs, big quiff, flowers. You'd never guess that Zenith was partly based on Morrissey.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1PV4eiDi12w
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dash Decent 06 October, 2013, 03:37:09 AM
I saw some internal shots on another site the other day, but now I can't find it for looking.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Tjm86 06 October, 2013, 10:24:53 AM
I saw some internal shots on another site the other day, but now I can't find it for looking.

on the bleeding cool website as noted by robprosser a few pages back.  Looking forward to this.  Timed quite nicely as I will need something to aid exam recovery!  Brain leaking!   :o
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: O Lucky Stevie! 08 October, 2013, 08:00:19 AM
Dear Tharg,

If there's any copies going spare, you know, like the extra copy (http://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php/topic,38649.msg779083.html#msg779083) that hippynumber1 selflessly ordered for Stevie after taking pity on his struggling with sagepay for three hours (http://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php/topic,38649.msg771128.html#msg771128) then it wouldn't go astray as a present for this boy's birthday on Thursday hint hint  ;)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Batman's Superior Cousin 08 October, 2013, 12:12:02 PM
It has ARRIVED!!!! :D

And you MUST be in 'cause it can't fit through the letterbox!!!!!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Link Prime 08 October, 2013, 12:16:58 PM
And you MUST be in 'cause it can't fit through the letterbox!!!!!

D'oh!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin Zeal 08 October, 2013, 12:43:45 PM
It has ARRIVED!!!! :D

And you MUST be in 'cause it can't fit through the letterbox!!!!!

But did it come with a bunch of flowers?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dragonfly 08 October, 2013, 01:53:29 PM
Am pleased to say my copy of this has also arrived. Was surprised as the postman had already been but this was delivered by courier so if you are not in then there is no going down to the local sorting office to collect it. Glad I have been working nights and was at home!
No flowers with my copy either, must be a creators only thing!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Fatboydale 08 October, 2013, 02:05:40 PM
Mine came today with Bitterness , the nice people at FP , sent a shitty email to my Mrs a few days ago  , saying only 1 copy per house hold , her copy was for her ill father ....

So they were happy to take up front payment for months ... had it a different address on , that would have be ok ....

I spend a small fortune on 2000ad books and within the FP store ... that will not be happening any more , i'm off to travelling man ...

As for the £100 Zentih book , nothing special to write home about , it does not have the feel of an expensive book , the binding is of cheap basic qualitly , i would not compare the quality to the Dc Absolute Edition's ..... and at twice the price , i would have expected more .... D- FOR EFFORT and Quailty  ...

Yes i am slightly pissed off in the way my Mrs has been treated ..... but in the end after i have read it , i will just give my book to My mrs father  ..... 

And before any dickhead starts with Rules .... i did not know my Mrs was ordering a second copy ...if i did i would have just got CF to get me one ....





: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 08 October, 2013, 02:14:07 PM
NOthing arrived for me yet - I hope they have not sent it to my old address, like they have done for the last 4 things that I have ordered.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Link Prime 08 October, 2013, 02:17:09 PM
I hope they have not sent it to my old address, like they have done for the last 4 things that I have ordered.

I'm pretty sure everyone knows you've recently moved to Skid Row due to that pesky art habit.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: DarkDaysBish-OP 08 October, 2013, 02:17:16 PM
Mine was just delivered by Yodel without fuss or incident. Looks lovely. Am using all my willpower not to open it before I finish my current script job.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 08 October, 2013, 02:18:25 PM
I hope they have not sent it to my old address, like they have done for the last 4 things that I have ordered.

I'm pretty sure everyone knows you've recently moved to Skid Row due to that pesky art habit.

Behind the hot water pipes at Kings Cross Station actually!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Batman's Superior Cousin 08 October, 2013, 03:05:23 PM
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/10/08/the-zenith-hardcovers-begin-to-arrive/
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: chiefy2shoes 08 October, 2013, 04:07:35 PM
One on ebay already. £500

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/zenith-sealed-hardcover-grant-morrison-steve-yeowell-ltd-1000-2000ad-/370915075816?pt=UK_Books_Comics_Magazines_US_Comics_ET&hash=item565c42e6e8
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: dweezil2 08 October, 2013, 04:14:10 PM
One on ebay already. £500

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/zenith-sealed-hardcover-grant-morrison-steve-yeowell-ltd-1000-2000ad-/370915075816?pt=UK_Books_Comics_Magazines_US_Comics_ET&hash=item565c42e6e8

Well! That didn't take Long!

Reasonable price too!   :lol:
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 08 October, 2013, 04:31:33 PM
Thieving wanker! That's O Lucky Steve's copy, right there.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 08 October, 2013, 04:41:38 PM
And another one: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/zenith-sealed-hardcover-grant-morrison-steve-yeowell-ltd-1000-2000ad/350894358509?_trksid=p2050601.m2451&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D266%26meid%3D1840726605246428845%26pid%3D100103%26prg%3D1141%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D370915075816%26clkid%3D1840728822933248528&_qi=RTM1489538

and even has the balls to charge £7 for postage!  >:(
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 08 October, 2013, 04:48:31 PM
The book is still seal and unopened

Grrrrrrrrr  >:(
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Spikes 08 October, 2013, 04:53:52 PM
And another one: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/zenith-sealed-hardcover-grant-morrison-steve-yeowell-ltd-1000-2000ad/350894358509?_trksid=p2050601.m2451&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D266%26meid%3D1840726605246428845%26pid%3D100103%26prg%3D1141%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D370915075816%26clkid%3D1840728822933248528&_qi=RTM1489538

and even has the balls to charge £7 for postage!  >:(

And 16 people watching it!
Bit much for peeps to be flinging them onto e-Bay like this, but hey...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin Zeal 08 October, 2013, 05:03:46 PM
It isn't really a surprise though is it? It's not nice to see it happen this quickly but out of that 1000 purchasers, some of them were bound to people trying to make a few quid.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: COMMANDO FORCES 08 October, 2013, 05:08:55 PM
This will always happen when a limited run of a certain item is produced. The Speculator will always rule, if given the chance!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 08 October, 2013, 05:26:47 PM

Watching collections of stuff he knocked out in the eighties earning £600 per copy for other people will in no way focus Grant Morrison's attention on the matter of sorting out the rights and getting more copies into print. What were Rebellion thinking of?

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: dweezil2 08 October, 2013, 05:50:09 PM
Mine's arrived at its delivery destination, I've been told!   :)

No chance to read today, but looking forward to checking it out tomorrow.

Feel bad for those who wanted one, but couldn't get a copy.   :(
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 08 October, 2013, 05:54:36 PM
What were Rebellion thinking of?
Getting the content out? Setting a precedent, which will subsequently enable them to release other editions later? Finally enabling Steve Yeowell to make some money from a strip that's long languished in reprint hell?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 08 October, 2013, 05:56:25 PM
I didn't get my copy today. Why do you hate me, Rebellion?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 08 October, 2013, 06:03:30 PM
Watching collections of stuff he knocked out in the eighties earning £600 per copy for other people will in no way focus Grant Morrison's attention on the matter of sorting out the rights and getting more copies into print. What were Rebellion thinking of?

Getting the content out? Setting a precedent, which will subsequently enable them to release other editions later? Finally enabling Steve Yeowell to make some money from a strip that's long languished in reprint hell?

I may have inadvertently employed irony in the course of typing that post.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: strontium71 08 October, 2013, 06:11:57 PM
And another one: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/zenith-sealed-hardcover-grant-morrison-steve-yeowell-ltd-1000-2000ad/350894358509?_trksid=p2050601.m2451&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D266%26meid%3D1840726605246428845%26pid%3D100103%26prg%3D1141%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D370915075816%26clkid%3D1840728822933248528&_qi=RTM1489538

and even has the balls to charge £7 for postage!  >:(

I think you're being rather unfair - after all this one is 5p cheaper  :o
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: shaolin_monkey 08 October, 2013, 06:27:26 PM
Ooh, look what just turned up! This puts the kibosh on any practice I was going to do tonight.

(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x32/scowling_monkey/null_zps7d5b8134.jpg)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 08 October, 2013, 06:29:06 PM
No sign of mine  :(

I also notice that one of the ebay listings has ended...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 08 October, 2013, 06:37:44 PM
Mine was delivered 5 minutes ago. Number 58 :)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 08 October, 2013, 07:33:13 PM
I may have inadvertently employed irony in the course of typing that post.
Arse. Today has not been a good day for brainpower/reading.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 08 October, 2013, 07:55:06 PM
As for the £100 Zentih book , nothing special to write home about , it does not have the feel of an expensive book , the binding is of cheap basic qualitly , i would not compare the quality to the Dc Absolute Edition's ..... and at twice the price , i would have expected more .... D- FOR EFFORT and Quailty  ...

Very true. The majority of the 'value' is it's exclusivity. I'm sure having a smaller run costs more but then I have no idea of what the publication numbers are for things such as the recent Nemesis 'public' hardback or as a good 'big' example, the IDW collections which cost only £23.55 for the Carlos 2 book.

It will only feel harsh when the softback(s) eventually come out. Does look nice on my shelf though :)
Nice to have the full collection at last.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 08 October, 2013, 07:57:47 PM

And another one: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/zenith-sealed-hardcover-grant-morrison-steve-yeowell-ltd-1000-2000ad/350894358509?_trksid=p2050601.m2451&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D266%26meid%3D1840726605246428845%26pid%3D100103%26prg%3D1141%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D370915075816%26clkid%3D1840728822933248528&_qi=RTM1489538


Cancelled and resubmitted as starting at 99p!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/zenith-sealed-hardcover-grant-morrison-steve-yeowell-ltd-1000-2000ad-/350894386301?pt=UK_Books_Comics_Magazines_US_Comics_ET&hash=item51b2ef6c7d
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 08 October, 2013, 08:02:33 PM
Maybe a lurker on the forum and has been shamed into not being a bastard!  :lol:
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 08 October, 2013, 08:28:56 PM
Mine just arrived (at 20:28). Tharg does love me after all  :D
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Steve Green 08 October, 2013, 08:31:08 PM
Doesn't seem like him...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 08 October, 2013, 08:46:24 PM


I expect Rich Johnson to microwave a copy (he'll wrangle a news-item out of this somehow).

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: dweezil2 08 October, 2013, 09:30:37 PM


I expect Rich Johnson to microwave a copy (he'll wrangle a news-item out of this somehow).

Or they could get Grant Morrison to chainsaw one in half on The One Show-that would be good!  :o
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 08 October, 2013, 09:32:29 PM
I thought that there would be no softback version!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Greg M. 08 October, 2013, 09:39:11 PM
In a straight answer to a straight question, Keith Richardson indeed said on the ECBT podcast that there would not be a softback edition.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 08 October, 2013, 09:42:32 PM
Or they could get Grant Morrison to chainsaw one in half on The One Show-that would be good!  :o


Grant is too busy selling his copies on ebay.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Buttonman 08 October, 2013, 09:43:49 PM
Sneckin' speculators! £500? <hitches up skirts>
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JamesC 08 October, 2013, 09:55:29 PM
In a straight answer to a straight question, Keith Richardson indeed said on the ECBT podcast that there would not be a softback edition.

There may not be a soft back 'complete' collection but there are bound to be other editions at some point -maybe released as individual phases.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 08 October, 2013, 09:58:06 PM
In a straight answer to a straight question, Keith Richardson indeed said on the ECBT podcast that there would not be a softback edition.

Pretty sure he didn't rule out some kind of non-limited edition in the future, though. Maybe not a softcover version of THIS edition, but four soft covers covering each phase…?

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 08 October, 2013, 10:05:22 PM

Pretty sure he didn't rule out some kind of non-limited edition in the future, though. Maybe not a softcover version of THIS edition, but four soft covers covering each phase…?


That's what I'm expecting.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: robert_ellis 08 October, 2013, 10:55:52 PM
The book looks great pin sharp and a completist's dream - the benchmark has been set for future hardcovers! Beautiful design - I was tempted to flog this but now I've seen it it's a keeper. Well done rebellion
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: shaolin_monkey 09 October, 2013, 12:23:21 AM
Bloody hell, I need to sleep, but I can't ... Put it ... DOWN!!! AAARGHH!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Greg M. 09 October, 2013, 07:06:11 AM
Pretty sure he didn't rule out some kind of non-limited edition in the future, though. Maybe not a softcover version of THIS edition, but four soft covers covering each phase…?

Fair enough, I may well be mistaken in my interpretation - I took his reply as effectively being 'that's Zenith done with now.'
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 09 October, 2013, 08:35:26 AM
Have those that have been delivered so far all been Yodel? If so, mine's never going to be delivered; they've never delivered anything successfully to me (with the exception of one graphic novel that they removed from the box and folded in order to force through the letterbox!)  >:(
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: sheldipez 09 October, 2013, 08:43:28 AM
Have those that have been delivered so far all been Yodel? If so, mine's never going to be delivered; they've never delivered anything successfully to me (with the exception of one graphic novel that they removed from the box and folded in order to force through the letterbox!)  >:(

That's crazy, did you obtain compensation for that? They usually just leave my stuff in the shed. Or sometimes the recycling bin.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 09 October, 2013, 08:49:48 AM
Amazon replaced it (and sent it with Royal Mail). They left something in the bin for a friend of mine, he almost dumped his rubbish on it!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin Zeal 09 October, 2013, 09:41:18 AM
No sign of my copy yesterday but I'm sure it will arrive today.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: shaolin_monkey 09 October, 2013, 10:21:06 AM
Have those that have been delivered so far all been Yodel? If so, mine's never going to be delivered; they've never delivered anything successfully to me (with the exception of one graphic novel that they removed from the box and folded in order to force through the letterbox!)  >:(

That's crazy, did you obtain compensation for that? They usually just leave my stuff in the shed. Or sometimes the recycling bin.

Oh god, don't talk to me about Yodel!!  Worst possible service ever.  I complained to Amazon so many times about them, who did nothing.  Late deliveries, leaflets saying left with a neighbour, but not saying which one, bashed, damaged packaging, parcels left leaning against door in the rain, I mean FFS!!!

In the end I cancelled my Amazon Prime membership (everything 'next day' was sent via Yodel), and went back to good old supersaver delivery.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 09 October, 2013, 11:31:03 AM
Fair enough, I may well be mistaken in my interpretation - I took his reply as effectively being 'that's Zenith done with now.'
I imagine it'll largely come down to legal advice regarding distribution. There's no sense in Rebellion moving forward with other editions if distributors won't carry them for fear of legal action. However, if that's no longer a problem, Rebellion would be mad to not cash in on the story, given that the audience would be reasonably large (although, I suspect, not quite as large as some people might think—this isn't Watchmen).

My guess: Phase I to show up at the tail end of 2014/early 2015, for about 15 quid in paperback, with a bunch of extras on the creation of the character.

In the end I cancelled my Amazon Prime membership (everything 'next day' was sent via Yodel), and went back to good old supersaver delivery.
We had Prime here for a year. What a waste of money it was. One Christmas I ordered two Kindles, which were sent via standard Royal Mail. By contrast, a DVD was sent next-day courier. Amazon argued it sent items by "the most appropriate method"; untraceable, untrackable Royal Mail for expensive tech devices, near to Christmas, when our local Royal Mail depots were (not officially, of course) 'stacking' mail deliveries (i.e. letting mail build up and delivering in batches—confirmed off the record to me by an employee)? Nice.

Fortunately, everything arrived in one suspiciously large sack of goodies on the 23rd, but never again.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 09 October, 2013, 11:35:02 AM
given that the audience would be reasonably large (although, I suspect, not quite as large as some people might think—this isn't Watchmen).

This is why I was wondering what normal numbers for 2000ad gn's are, let alone something that should have a wider appeal like an available version of Zenith. What are the numbers like for something like the The Best of Milligan & McCarthy?
What size are the markets these days? After all Zenith took a few days to actually sell out after all.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Batman's Superior Cousin 09 October, 2013, 11:41:14 AM
Finished reading my copy yesterday, brilliant stuff!!! Ranks among Nikolai Dante & Cradlegrave as as one of 2000AD's best works!!!!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 09 October, 2013, 11:49:25 AM
I can't QUITE believe it. Yodel have come through for the first time EVER (possibly only because I'm at home today)! It's here! In my hand! #38  :D
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: sheldipez 09 October, 2013, 11:50:58 AM
We had Prime here for a year. What a waste of money it was. One Christmas I ordered two Kindles, which were sent via standard Royal Mail. By contrast, a DVD was sent next-day courier. Amazon argued it sent items by "the most appropriate method"; untraceable, untrackable Royal Mail for expensive tech devices, near to Christmas, when our local Royal Mail depots were (not officially, of course) 'stacking' mail deliveries (i.e. letting mail build up and delivering in batches—confirmed off the record to me by an employee)? Nice.

Fortunately, everything arrived in one suspiciously large sack of goodies on the 23rd, but never again.

HA! We had similar experience with our trial of prime last xmas too - we had books that cost around £1 mark come via courrier (singularly - as in a courrier would turn up with a book that cost a £1) and the £170 kindle paperwhite was delivered standard royal mail through the letterbox.

That Amazon Prime must leave an awful eco footprint behind, we didn't renew Prime either. Totally wastefull. If I really must have something ASAP I'll pay for it individually.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 09 October, 2013, 02:27:27 PM
No one has delivered anything to me . . . . I bet it had gone to my old address!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: klute 09 October, 2013, 03:37:25 PM
Mine was delivered yesterday huzzah!!! wife had to sign for it as i was at work :( i'm limited edition number 250 something or other(i think)....it's now gone away till christmas :)


Had a quick flick through before it went into hiding looked awesome and brought back some good memories.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin Zeal 09 October, 2013, 04:03:03 PM
Mine has arrived, number 462. Kindly left on the doorstep where I almost missed it on the way in. It looks lovely, so I'd like to say well done to the design team as they did a fantastic job.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 09 October, 2013, 06:02:37 PM
No one has delivered anything to me . . . . I bet it had gone to my old address!

Surely it went to the delivery address you specified on the order?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: dweezil2 09 October, 2013, 06:53:57 PM
Finally got my mitts on it........and it's gorgeous!

Well done Tharg and team!     :thumbsup:   :)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Spikes 09 October, 2013, 08:40:08 PM
So, for those that now have this weighty tome, what's the repro like? Pretty good?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 09 October, 2013, 08:46:01 PM
Very nice I thought! Crisp art, slighty 'smudgy' colour on the 2 pages that appeared on the back page of the prog from Phase I but, other than that, beautiful.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Buttonman 09 October, 2013, 08:55:36 PM
Number 255 for me - was hoping for 1, 1000 or (alternative) 666 but you take your chances. Lovely book, nice weight, shine and colours. Don't want to break its back and it will probably remain in its virgin state for many moons.

I'm on an Amazon Prime trial too as I was needing a new camera for a wedding and it is good but as has been said how many things do you have to have next day? To totally explot it I've started my Christmas shopping and got new running shoes and DVD+Rs but I doubt I'll sign on beyond the trial.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Grey M@a 09 October, 2013, 10:23:06 PM
Mine arrived last night and left with a neighbour. Collected it and then had to go to work due to on-call.

Was planning on reading it tonight and again on-call xD Just opened it, I have number 46 of 1000, it looks great, great package, only read small parts of Zenith so 80% of this will be all new material to me :D

My thing for hard backs and not having the dust covers on them, I was glad to see that the actual Hard cover has a design on it and just the title of the book embossed in it like most Marvel/DC.

Good job on the book lads.

Just back in again from on-call so I am hoping I will get time tomorrow to sit down and start chugging through it.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 10 October, 2013, 03:05:47 PM
I'm on an Amazon Prime trial too as I was needing a new camera for a wedding and it is good but as has been said how many things do you have to have next day?
The problem I found with it was that I didn't get an awful lot of stuff next-day. In fact, Play.com (which was still trading at the time) was faster with its free postage in December than Amazon Prime was. I know other people who've had a much better experience, so it's obviously quite variable. Compared to the US, though, where you also get a ton of streaming video for the price, it's a crappy deal.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Greg M. 10 October, 2013, 05:55:56 PM
My copy has arrived - no. 165. 100-quid-worth of high-quality wonderfulness. I had forgotten just how good zzzzenith.com is - the joke about Eddie being freeze-dried is inspired. Those 8 pages are better than pretty much the whole of Phase 4 (which is still good, but you can kinda tell Grant wasn't quite as into it by that point.)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 10 October, 2013, 06:06:54 PM
My copy has arrived - no. 165. 100-quid-worth of high-quality wonderfulness. I had forgotten just how good zzzzenith.com is - the joke about Eddie being freeze-dried is inspired. Those 8 pages are better than pretty much the whole of Phase 4 (which is still good, but you can kinda tell Grant wasn't quite as into it by that point.)

If only to show that hard-core Zenith fans don't always agree,  I have to say I love phase IV, it's an improvement on III in my view, which I love almost as much. It's only possible for me to tell Morrison had lost enthusiasm from reading interviews with him.

zzzzenith.com, however, was a piece of sh*t. Some sort of parody, with no jokes, I don't count it as part of Zenith.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Greg M. 10 October, 2013, 06:23:36 PM
Yeah, I remembered that you totally hated zzzzenith.com - I love it. The bit with Eddie cracks me up - "I've just about turned straight with boredom, waiting for you!" had me laughing out loud as I read it. I do like Phase IV - it has some great bits - but to a certain extent it feels like a really protracted future shock over fifteen episodes (albeit with a really good twist.) It is difficult (maybe impossible) for me to separate what Grant said in interviews from my experience of reading Phase IV, and maybe the fact he described it as the 'most boring' Zenith story has coloured my opinion. For me, it's the one that seems most workman-like: a story he had to tell, and which he tells in a solid manner, but without so many of the inspired little touches and moments that make I-III so memorable.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: robert_ellis 10 October, 2013, 09:03:59 PM
The COMPLETE Zenith is beautiful and some of the best design and reproduction I've seen. But it isn't complete. where's the pin-up of robot Archie? Where's the pin up from 534 and where's the "a midsummer's night scene" from the sci fi special? Complete? Perhaps the soft covers will print them!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 11 October, 2013, 01:48:48 AM
:( Still nothing :(
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dunk! 11 October, 2013, 08:47:03 AM
Nothing this end and others in my town received theirs days ago.  :(

Fear it going to my company (which recently went into liquidation) address maybe a contributing factor.

Other deliveries are getting through, Yodel!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: credo 11 October, 2013, 02:44:57 PM
The COMPLETE Zenith is beautiful and some of the best design and reproduction I've seen. But it isn't complete. where's the pin-up of robot Archie? Where's the pin up from 534 and where's the "a midsummer's night scene" from the sci fi special? Complete? Perhaps the soft covers will print them!

I wonder if these were left out for copyright reasons? Robot Archie can be used in strip as a form of parody (?) but a straight-up starscan might infringe copyright. The mock polaroids from "a midsummer's night scene" include one of Zenith dedicating an autograph to a partially obscured "Grant and Steve". Could Mr Morrison have had legitimate grounds to complain on the use of his own likeness?

There's another starscan from the 1200s or thereabouts that's missing, showing "Great Moments from 2000ad" that includes a redraw of Zenith punching a hole in Masterman.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: robert_ellis 11 October, 2013, 03:48:01 PM
I'd love to see that pin-up/star scan of the punch - can anyone help with an prog number?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Link Prime 11 October, 2013, 03:50:27 PM
:( Still nothing :(

Me neither...was really looking forward to reading it this weekend.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dandontdare 11 October, 2013, 04:27:34 PM
I'd love to see that pin-up/star scan of the punch - can anyone help with an prog number?

hmm - can't seem to find that among the 3 zenioth star scans on Barney - but here are all the Zenith covers if that's any consolation: http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=covers&page=character&choice=zenith&Comic=2000ad (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=covers&page=character&choice=zenith&Comic=2000ad)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 11 October, 2013, 06:19:28 PM
:( Still nothing :(

Me neither...was really looking forward to reading it this weekend.

It's Yodel, god knows where it might be.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dash Decent 12 October, 2013, 03:37:07 PM
Any overseas Squaxx received their copy?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: 13school 13 October, 2013, 04:28:28 AM
Nothing here... though being in Australia I figure it could still be a week away. But most of the overseas mail tends to arrive on a Monday, so fingers crossed for tomorrow!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Sherman Kid 13 October, 2013, 10:44:32 PM
Got mine #381

Nicely done and good to have it all in one volume.

But WFT is ZZZZenith.com at the end???!!Utter dross, I must have erased it from memory as I don't recall seeing it before. It really should have been left out as it detracts from what is otherwise a good body of work.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Steve Green 13 October, 2013, 10:52:50 PM
Don't read it then.

I'm sure there would have been more complaints if it hadn't been included.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 13 October, 2013, 11:32:43 PM
Still nothing . . .  :'(

Am I now the only person in the UK with no book?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 14 October, 2013, 07:35:29 AM
Got mine #381

Nicely done and good to have it all in one volume.

But WFT is ZZZZenith.com at the end???!!Utter dross, I must have erased it from memory as I don't recall seeing it before. It really should have been left out as it detracts from what is otherwise a good body of work.

I do agree with you about the quality, and I'm sure it was a nasty surprise if you weren't expecting it, but I'm afraid zzzzenith.com is an official sequel and does have to be there. For me, it serves as a sad lesson that the great Grant Morrison of the Zenith/Dare era did not keep writing for very long.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin Zeal 14 October, 2013, 09:50:18 AM
Rebellion would hardly have been able to market the book as "the complete Zenith" if they had left that story out.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dunk! 14 October, 2013, 10:06:28 AM
Still nothing . . .  :'(

Am I now the only person in the UK with no book?

Nope. Fingers crossed it's today as I know there's been deliveries locally last week.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: matty_ae 14 October, 2013, 12:56:28 PM
Comparison between titan, original rebellion and this rebellion version attached.

Only blunder i can see is all the 'next week' lines are missing in book 1 - these were all song titles that bore no resemblance to the actual title of next weeks story. I could understand this in mainstream release but i think this version should have kept it.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: matty_ae 14 October, 2013, 12:57:42 PM
Covers but no real news here - the new one is a thing of beauty
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: credo 15 October, 2013, 11:31:36 AM
I'd love to see that pin-up/star scan of the punch - can anyone help with an prog number?

hmm - can't seem to find that among the 3 zenioth star scans on Barney - but here are all the Zenith covers if that's any consolation: http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=covers&page=character&choice=zenith&Comic=2000ad (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=covers&page=character&choice=zenith&Comic=2000ad)

After much searching, it's in Prog 1526 (so I was way out).

(http://)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: robert_ellis 15 October, 2013, 02:20:33 PM
Off to eBay to buy that prog - cheers
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dunk! 15 October, 2013, 02:48:42 PM
One call to the very nice helpful man at 2000ad subscriptions/Rebellion and it turns out my works liquidation has confused the driver hence no delivery.

Luckily it got returned so I can get it sent out again. Huzzah.

Crisis over. Cheers fella.

SO looking forward to this beauty.

Dunk!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 15 October, 2013, 03:13:35 PM
Still nothing here  :(
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dunk! 15 October, 2013, 03:18:49 PM
Give em a call.

The helpful Rebellion guy mentioned that they had had a small stack of books returned as undeliverable and yours, for whatever reason, may be languishing in that pile. Mine was.

D!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 16 October, 2013, 05:30:55 PM
Yeah I have tried today - they said they would call me back and then never did. I have sent a few emails too, with no response.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Molch-R 16 October, 2013, 05:56:22 PM
The warehouse droids are extraordinarily busy at the moment, so if you get no response drop a line to press@rebellion.co.uk and I'll see what I can do.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 16 October, 2013, 06:37:45 PM
Thank you!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dunk! 17 October, 2013, 11:18:13 AM
Mine turned up at my desk today.

I'm cuddling it.


PS: Huge thanks to whoever was manning the phones on Tues - real customer service.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: shaolin_monkey 17 October, 2013, 12:39:55 PM
I finished reading it the other night - I really took my time with it.  Fantastic.  I really don't get the lack of love for Phase 4.  I thought it was a perfect way to wrap it all up and really enjoyed it.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Buttonman 18 October, 2013, 06:00:16 PM
One sold on eBay for £395.00! Anybody blinking yet?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: robert_ellis 18 October, 2013, 07:19:13 PM
Wow!!! I wonder if the titan books will go for less now
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: klute 19 October, 2013, 09:50:05 AM
One sold on eBay for £395.00! Anybody blinking yet?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Zenith-brand-new-sealed-by-Grant-Morrison-Steve-Yeowell-2000ad-/271300273079?pt=UK_Books_Comics_Magazines_US_Comics_ET&hash=item3f2ac1a3b7


One on atm for 103 (atm) heartbreaking
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: klute 19 October, 2013, 09:51:17 AM
Wow!!! I wonder if the titan books will go for less now

 25 pound a pop for the titan books on ebay not really a suprise :(
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 19 October, 2013, 05:34:24 PM


It's been declared the new Gold-Standard and is trading at, an equivalent, half troy-ounce price-point.

I advise to stock up on baked beans, dried food, ammo and Zenith Hardbacks.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 19 October, 2013, 06:00:29 PM
It's been declared the new Gold-Standard and is trading at, an equivalent, half troy-ounce price-point. I advise to stock up on baked beans, dried food, ammo and Zenith Hardbacks.

Tea Party activists only called off their protests at the cost of his health care reforms when they saw Barack Obama had a dozen copies of The Complete Zenith on the shelves of the oval office.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 19 October, 2013, 06:28:01 PM
I feel sorry for people forced to buy this collection from these scumbag ebayers.

Would serve the speculators right if Rebellion chased up the book numbers and banned anyone who sold Zenith "new and sealed" from ordering any special editions ever again.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 19 October, 2013, 06:59:39 PM
Would be interesting to know if a record was kept of who had which number.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 19 October, 2013, 07:33:06 PM
I feel sorry for people forced to buy this collection from these scumbag ebayers.

Would serve the speculators right if Rebellion chased up the book numbers and banned anyone who sold Zenith "new and sealed" from ordering any special editions ever again.

Yes, and they could also change the law on property ownership.

And the original builders of any houses that were sold could chase down the owners and make them give the money to cat home.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Richmond Clements 19 October, 2013, 07:34:17 PM
I feel sorry for people forced to buy this collection from these scumbag ebayers.



Well, if anyone was being 'forced' to buy it, you may have a point...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 19 October, 2013, 08:23:22 PM
I feel sorry for people forced to buy this collection from these scumbag ebayers.

It takes two to tango; the only reason 'scumbag ebayers' exist is because there are other ebayers, freely, handing over their money. It's about as much use as blaming Rebellion for not printing enough copies.

Would serve the speculators right if Rebellion chased up the book numbers and banned anyone who sold Zenith "new and sealed" from ordering any special editions ever again.

Rebellion like to have people to sell books to so a policy of banning them would be bad for business.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 19 October, 2013, 08:29:17 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 19 October, 2013, 08:59:00 PM
It takes two to tango; the only reason 'scumbag ebayers' exist is because there are other ebayers, freely, handing over their money. It's about as much use as blaming Rebellion for not printing enough copies.

I am not arguing with the law of supply and demand, simply expressing distaste for speculators buying when not actually interested in the book. I stand by that. Those people are scumbags.

Obviously Rebellion created this market by restricting the print run, but I totally understand why they did that and believe they deserve great credit for publishing at all.

Rebellion like to have people to sell books to so a policy of banning them would be bad for business.

The policy of one per household also restricted sales, but was introduced for reasons of fairness.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 19 October, 2013, 09:08:15 PM
Well, if anyone was being 'forced' to buy it, you may have a point...

I remember you've banged that drum already, when people bitched about the original price tag.

However, I don't agree with you. I think Zenith is too good to be restricted to a handful of readers, and in particular that this amazing edition should be enjoyed by 1000 genuine comic fans, not treated like a tradable commodity by opportunist sad acts who think they're Gordon Gekko.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: sheldipez 19 October, 2013, 09:15:48 PM
People should just wait for the inevitable paperback versions, the hardback got out there with no issues so just a matter of time of waiting a little longer for the el cheapo versions.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 19 October, 2013, 09:19:09 PM
Depends what people actually want.
I'm sure there are some people that would want the hardback Zenith even if there was a complete softback version.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 19 October, 2013, 09:20:11 PM
I am not arguing with the law of supply and demand, simply expressing distaste for speculators buying when not actually interested in the book. I stand by that. Those people are scumbags.


I've no problem with your opinion but going by your thinking on this, my point was would it not also make those who buy it on ebay 'scumbags' since they're feeding the seller and this type of market? I don't think it follows that you can blame one and not the other.


The policy of one per household also restricted sales, but was introduced for reasons of fairness.

And I believe most abide by it and the few who capitalise on the opportunity always will.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mister Pops 19 October, 2013, 09:23:42 PM
Well, if anyone was being 'forced' to buy it, you may have a point...

I remember you've banged that drum already, when people bitched about the original price tag.

However, I don't agree with you. I think Zenith is too good to be restricted to a handful of readers, and in particular that this amazing edition should be enjoyed by 1000 genuine comic fans, not treated like a tradable commodity by opportunist sad acts who think they're Gordon Gekko.

So how do you ensure that? Make people fill in a questionairre before purchasing? Fuck that, it's no-ones business why I want to buy anything. I might have bought it because it was the perfect thickness to prop up my wonky couch.

It's no different to the people that buy toys and never remove them from the box because it might decrease the value.

I agree that sort of cashing in is a pretty crass thing to do, but I don't want Tharg to start acting like the Soup Nazi, shouting "NO COMICS FOR YOU!" at anyone he deemed undeserving of his stuff.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 19 October, 2013, 09:24:54 PM
I bought my copy because I ran out of toilet paper. . . . Thankfully I got some more in the meantime! Although it is running low!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 19 October, 2013, 09:57:17 PM
I've no problem with your opinion but going by your thinking on this, my point was would it not also make those who buy it on ebay 'scumbags' since they're feeding the seller and this type of market? I don't think it follows that you can blame one and not the other.

Interesting question, and I don't necessarily agree with your logic, but I guess I would say that buying from such a seller is probably not the right thing to do.

No doubt genuine second-hand copies will start to appear soon, which will give people keen to obtain the book a better option.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 19 October, 2013, 09:59:46 PM
I bought my copy because I ran out of toilet paper. . . . Thankfully I got some more in the meantime! Although it is running low!

Ah, now I understand why you were bitching so much about non-delivery ;)

Did you ever get your copy?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 19 October, 2013, 10:13:44 PM
Yes it arrived yesterday afternoon.

I have not opened it yet as I am hoping someone will offer me £400 for it!

 >:(
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 19 October, 2013, 10:21:58 PM
There is not enough rich daft people out there though :(
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: BPP 19 October, 2013, 10:26:46 PM
A £100 non-transferable loan of the book would have solved your ebay distaste. Ya'know, like Apple does for iTunes.

Better call Saul....
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 19 October, 2013, 11:18:15 PM
There is not enough rich daft people out there though :(
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Houses.of.parliament.overall.arp.jpg)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Link Prime 20 October, 2013, 02:09:58 AM
People should just wait for the inevitable paperback versions, the hardback got out there with no issues

No one else has mentioned this, so it's probably bullshit, but I've heard from a "reliable source" that the reason the hardbacks were posted early was to avoid pending legal action by Morrison.
Glad they were distributed by the way, as I personally think GM is in the wrong in this particular case.

Regarding the EBay controversy; if someone's dumb enough to pay £400 for a book, it makes me feel 75% less dumb for paying £100 for it in the first place, so Grud bless 'em.
I've no intention of profiteering from my (still undelivered) copy by the way, just commenting that I couldn't (or shouldn't) give a white shite about what anyone else does with their own property.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 20 October, 2013, 09:39:33 AM
I've no problem with your opinion but going by your thinking on this, my point was would it not also make those who buy it on ebay 'scumbags' since they're feeding the seller and this type of market? I don't think it follows that you can blame one and not the other.

Interesting question, and I don't necessarily agree with your logic, but I guess I would say that buying from such a seller is probably not the right thing to do.

No doubt genuine second-hand copies will start to appear soon, which will give people keen to obtain the book a better option.

I'm interested to know what you think about the copy that was listed at 99p and eventually sold for £395. There was no demand for an inflated price, people freely bid it up to that price, no-one was 'forced' to pay above and beyond the original £100 price-tag...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 20 October, 2013, 09:44:52 AM
No one else has mentioned this, so it's probably bullshit, but I've heard from a "reliable source" that the reason the hardbacks were posted early was to avoid pending legal action by Morrison.

Not sure why you're repeating it if you think it's bullshit. I'm pretty sure it is bullshit — Morrison's own words in an interview with arch-Mozza-apologist Laura Sneddon indicate that the legal issue is dead in the water.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 20 October, 2013, 10:42:58 AM

I'm interested to know what you think about the copy that was listed at 99p and eventually sold for £395. There was no demand for an inflated price, people freely bid it up to that price, no-one was 'forced' to pay above and beyond the original £100 price-tag...

I Still think the person who listed it is a scumbag as they bought the book with no intention of reading it. The poor sap who paid £395 may have been able to buy a copy from Rebellion had the speculators stayed away.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 20 October, 2013, 10:48:59 AM
I Still think the person who listed it is a scumbag as they bought the book with no intention of reading it. The poor sap who paid £395 may have been able to buy a copy from Rebellion had the speculators stayed away.

Welcome to the capitalist free market in action!

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 20 October, 2013, 11:11:48 AM
Welcome to the capitalist free market in action!

Cheers

Jim

Several people have said stuff like that, although presumably not all are hardcore Thatcherites that believe in totally unregulated markets.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 20 October, 2013, 11:20:33 AM
Surely they would be blaming Rebellion for not fulfilling the demand that the market has? ;)

I'm very happy with it but the cost does make you think. If someone was to knock at my door now and give me £400 would I give it up? Maybe. I could buy a lot more GN's that way.
But it's a numbered edition!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Richmond Clements 20 October, 2013, 11:24:57 AM
Well, if anyone was being 'forced' to buy it, you may have a point...

I remember you've banged that drum already, when people bitched about the original price tag.

However, I don't agree with you. I think Zenith is too good to be restricted to a handful of readers, and in particular that this amazing edition should be enjoyed by 1000 genuine comic fans, not treated like a tradable commodity by opportunist sad acts who think they're Gordon Gekko.

Welcome to the real world.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 20 October, 2013, 11:29:55 AM

I'm interested to know what you think about the copy that was listed at 99p and eventually sold for £395. There was no demand for an inflated price, people freely bid it up to that price, no-one was 'forced' to pay above and beyond the original £100 price-tag...

I Still think the person who listed it is a scumbag as they bought the book with no intention of reading it. The poor sap who paid £395 may have been able to buy a copy from Rebellion had the speculators stayed away.

Maybe this 'scumbag' originally bought he book with the intention of reading it, but in the interim period they were diagnosed with a terminal illness. Rather than setting up a meth lab to pay for their treatment they decided to sell all their unread books on Ebay.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: shaolin_monkey 20 October, 2013, 11:32:48 AM
Well, if anyone was being 'forced' to buy it, you may have a point...

I remember you've banged that drum already, when people bitched about the original price tag.

However, I don't agree with you. I think Zenith is too good to be restricted to a handful of readers, and in particular that this amazing edition should be enjoyed by 1000 genuine comic fans, not treated like a tradable commodity by opportunist sad acts who think they're Gordon Gekko.

Welcome to the real world.

Yep. If we were living in an anarcho-syndicalist commune, things would be different, I'm sure. But we ain't.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 20 October, 2013, 11:50:00 AM
Welcome to the capitalist free market in action!

Several people have said stuff like that, although presumably not all are hardcore Thatcherites that believe in totally unregulated markets.

I'm struggling to think of anything I've ever bought where the vendor imposed conditions upon the resale of the item. Even in the case of houses, cars and guns, the government only wants to know the name of the purchaser, rather than telling people how much they can charge or who they can sell to.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 20 October, 2013, 11:55:19 AM
Welcome to the real world.

I liked my world better.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mardroid 20 October, 2013, 12:40:36 PM
I bought my copy because I ran out of toilet paper. . . . Thankfully I got some more in the meantime! Although it is running low!

Do those cash machines dispense notes in fifties? ;-)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 20 October, 2013, 12:58:39 PM
I bought my copy because I ran out of toilet paper. . . . Thankfully I got some more in the meantime! Although it is running low!

Do those cash machines dispense notes in fifties? ;-)

Sorry, only in £100 notes
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Buttonman 20 October, 2013, 01:09:42 PM
The sale date was announced a month in advance and even then they didn't sell out for 3 days. If you really had to have one you could have got one with very little effort. It the same with Royal mail shares - are the people who bought them with no intention of keeping them long term 'scumbags' for cashing in for a quick £300?

Plenty of ways we all get our pocket picked every day so I for one would have no issues with 'cashing in' - market forces dictated the selling price and they will the re-sale price. I also wonder who determines what is a 'genuine second hand copy'. Are bent back pages and coffee stains a must?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Steve Green 20 October, 2013, 01:28:25 PM
If anyone wants to send me one I'm happy to do a weathering service - for a price.

(Offer restricted to the first 100, where the price then trebles)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: I, Cosh 20 October, 2013, 01:31:01 PM
I'm interested to know what you think about the copy that was listed at 99p and eventually sold for £395. There was no demand for an inflated price, people freely bid it up to that price, no-one was 'forced' to pay above and beyond the original £100 price-tag...
I Still think the person who listed it is a scumbag as they bought the book with no intention of reading it. The poor sap who paid £395 may have been able to buy a copy from Rebellion had the speculators stayed away.
Let's be honest. Anyone who pays that much money for a comic either has the money to waste on whatever they like or is a total fucking idiot. Or both, obviously.

Can't say that I see anything wrong on the seller's part in either of those scenarios. It's the same as the crap people spout about ticket touts: if you don't pay the prices people wont try to sell at those prices.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 20 October, 2013, 01:35:33 PM
The poor sap who paid £395 may have been able to buy a copy from Rebellion had the speculators stayed away.

Anyone who pays that much money for a comic either has the money to waste on whatever they like or is a total fucking idiot. It's the same as the crap people spout about ticket touts: if you don't pay the prices people wont try to sell at those prices.

Quite.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 20 October, 2013, 06:04:02 PM
Has anybody received their copy of The Complete Zenith yet?

I would also like to know if they've already deducted the money from our bank accounts for this book yet. Just leaving 100 dollars in my savings account just in case. Although I seem to remember they may have already done this when  we all first put in our orders. Sometimes the money is deducted just before they box it up and send it to you.

Just wondering.....
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Greg M. 20 October, 2013, 06:08:49 PM
They took the money when we ordered.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 20 October, 2013, 06:12:57 PM
Thanks, I need all the money I can get at the moment :D
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 20 October, 2013, 06:52:43 PM
Thanks, I need all the money I can get at the moment :D

Do you want to sell your copy?  I'll give you £101!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 20 October, 2013, 09:21:40 PM
£101.05!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 20 October, 2013, 09:25:37 PM
£101.10


We don't need Ebay, we can just do this for 10 days!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 20 October, 2013, 09:39:01 PM
Too rich for my pocket, I'm out!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mark Taylor 20 October, 2013, 11:14:37 PM
Y'know, I'm a pretty dedicated collector when it comes to my 2000AD graphic novels. I've basically bought everything Rebellion have put out, with the exception of multiple editions reprinting identical content (like ABC warriors hardback and softback editions - I only bought the hardbacks). In the case of The Complete Zenith I personally felt the asking price was too high for the for the format being offered. For £100 I want something as special in presentation as an DC Comics style Absolute Edition (I have all 5 'Sandman' volumes plus 'Death' in that format).

So, I didn't buy it. Of course, this messes up the completeness (in terms of published content) of my collection. Yup. Sure does. But the point is nobody was forcing me to buy it then, nobody is forcing me to buy it now, and in fact in reality no body is forcing anybody to buy it at any point. If the price is too high it is within anybody and everybody's power to 'just say no'. Food, you're forced to buy (if you want to live)... a comic book, not so much. I'm really having no difficulty to speak of living with my slightly-less-than-complete collection of Rebellion published 2000AD Graphic Novels.

P.S. Then again, as a dedicated car fan I really need a Lamborghini Aventador LP 700–4, but at a quarter of a million quid the bastards are forcing me to bankrupt myself and consign my family to a poverty stricken existence for the rest of their lives. What complete arseholes. Oh well, that's life.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 21 October, 2013, 03:31:52 AM
Thanks, I need all the money I can get at the moment :D

Do you want to sell your copy?  I'll give you £101!

I'm not saying I don't have all the money I want, I just don't wan to find out I going to minus another hundred dollars on some book I though I had already paid for.

Since I had gone through the tedious process of trying to purchase this book within the first few minutes of it's limited run and succeeded.

I would like to see and read and perhaps own what was all the fuss about.

Sorry guys........

Sop one had once asked for Zenith collection when I think some one else replied that it was never going to happen due to who owned the rights to Zenith I believe.

Besides it does look like a handsome volume.

Although, I may decide I don't want it after holding it in my hands and may sell it and think of your offer.

How much does it depreciate if I've already looked at and read it?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 21 October, 2013, 03:35:52 AM
So one had once asked for Zenith collection when I think some one else replied that it was never going to happen due to who owned the rights to Zenith I believe.

Ah, fixed that, and what I meant to add was that then this book happened in defiance of that claim and I had to satisfy my curiosity.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dunk! 21 October, 2013, 08:28:44 AM
Taking the day off work today to read my Complete Zenith with phase 4 for the 1st time.

Well, TBH it's to recover from The Lakes International Comic Art Festival, but Zenith is a big bonus.

Dunk!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Link Prime 21 October, 2013, 12:21:23 PM
No one else has mentioned this, so it's probably bullshit, but I've heard from a "reliable source" that the reason the hardbacks were posted early was to avoid pending legal action by Morrison.

Not sure why you're repeating it if you think it's bullshit. I'm pretty sure it is bullshit — Morrison's own words in an interview with arch-Mozza-apologist Laura Sneddon indicate that the legal issue is dead in the water.

Cheers

Jim

Only mentioned this cause the source is normally bona fide impeccable, and was interested if anyone else had heard it.
The outcome is all that matters now I suppose. Glad it played out without incident.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dunk! 21 October, 2013, 04:18:24 PM
Read Phase IV.

Oh dear.

Dunk!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 21 October, 2013, 04:19:41 PM
Not good?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: radiator 21 October, 2013, 04:29:54 PM
Y'know, I'm a pretty dedicated collector when it comes to my 2000AD graphic novels. I've basically bought everything Rebellion have put out, with the exception of multiple editions reprinting identical content (like ABC warriors hardback and softback editions - I only bought the hardbacks). In the case of The Complete Zenith I personally felt the asking price was too high for the for the format being offered. For £100 I want something as special in presentation as an DC Comics style Absolute Edition (I have all 5 'Sandman' volumes plus 'Death' in that format).

So, I didn't buy it. Of course, this messes up the completeness (in terms of published content) of my collection. Yup. Sure does. But the point is nobody was forcing me to buy it then, nobody is forcing me to buy it now, and in fact in reality no body is forcing anybody to buy it at any point. If the price is too high it is within anybody and everybody's power to 'just say no'. Food, you're forced to buy (if you want to live)... a comic book, not so much. I'm really having no difficulty to speak of living with my slightly-less-than-complete collection of Rebellion published 2000AD Graphic Novels.

I'm pretty much in the same boat - I decided not to order, and though I must admit to feeling a bit jealous seeing the books start to arrive for others, at the end of the day I stand by the decision - £100, though I could afford it, is simply too much money to spend on a book I'll in all likelihood only ever read once or twice, no matter how rare or lovely it is. In all honesty I think I'd feel a little guilty if I had have bought one. I understand the reasons and justifications for the cost, but it's just a personal preference that I wouldn't pay more than, say £70 or £80 (and that would be pushing it a bit).

Must admit though, in hindsight I do slightly regret not ordering myself one and ordering a second copy via slightly underhand means, then selling the spare copy to recoup or subsidise the cost of the first!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 22 October, 2013, 11:43:23 AM
@radiator: Agreed on the not-ordering. Even now, there's a twinge of regret, but 100 quid was too much for me at the time, the week I lost most of my income without knowing how things would pan out. On two copies, though, I don't regret that for a second. Scalpers annoy the crap out of me, and it would be hypocritical to do the same myself.

As for Phase IV, I'm of the opinion it wraps things up nicely. It's creepy, interesting and has some great moments and twists. I can't stand the colouring (I wish there was some way to eradicate colouring from a Zenith special edition, but it's just not possible, without hundreds of hours in Photoshop), but otherwise it's a story I still enjoy.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dash Decent 22 October, 2013, 01:37:44 PM
The warehouse droids are extraordinarily busy at the moment, so if you get no response drop a line to press@rebellion.co.uk and I'll see what I can do.

Hi Molch-R,

Are you able to say if all copies of the Zenith hardback have been shipped, or if some are still in the process of being despatched?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Molch-R 22 October, 2013, 01:38:44 PM
Are you able to say if all copies of the Zenith hardback have been shipped, or if some are still in the process of being despatched?

It very much depends where you live, Earthlet.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dash Decent 22 October, 2013, 01:45:49 PM
I'm in Sydney - but although I'm certainly interested in mine, I was hoping you might be able to give a blanket reply for all the board, e.g. all UK mainland & European orders despatched, Rest of World despatching through this week.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Molch-R 22 October, 2013, 01:58:50 PM
The remaining copies are going out this week.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Spikes 22 October, 2013, 10:00:30 PM
I guess most will have seen this, but on FB, 2000ad is giving away a copy. To stand a chance of winning, you just have to be signed up to receive the weekly Thrill-mail.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mark Taylor 22 October, 2013, 10:40:23 PM
...I understand the reasons and justifications for the cost...

Interesting, I haven't seen any reasons and justifications given for the cost. I probably missed it because there is a whole lot of this thread I haven't actually read (and don't have time to trawl through). Anybody care to point me in the right direction as I'd be interested to know? Thanks.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mark Taylor 22 October, 2013, 11:23:50 PM
Have those that have been delivered so far all been Yodel? If so, mine's never going to be delivered; they've never delivered anything successfully to me (with the exception of one graphic novel that they removed from the box and folded in order to force through the letterbox!)  >:(

Yodel. Hahaha.

Yodel, having attempted to deliver a package to me when I wasn't at home, dropped a card through my letterbox. The card directed me (via a website - had I not had internet access I wouldn't have been directed anywhere at all) to collect the item at a delivery office which, in fact, turned out not to exist. I didn't find this out straight away, of course. No, I spent the best part of an hour and a half driving around some industrial estate thinking it was google maps that had gotten it all wrong, because surely Yodel would know where their own delivery office is located, right? As it turned out, the delivery office I'd been directed to had been closed down several months previously.

I then attempted to find out where my package was actually located. This is where things started to become really frustrating. Firstly, Yodel proved nigh impossible to contact by phone (as in to actually speak to someone, if you like listening to a variety of completely useless recorded messages then get in there). When I did finally (after calling about half a dozen different numbers) get to speak to a bona fide human being, they were completey unable to inform me as to where my package was, in fact, located. Nor were they able to suggest who might be able to furnish me with such information.

In fact, I never did find out. I just had to let nature run its course and let Yodel return the package to Amazon after the period in which I was supposed to pick it up finally expired, at which point Amazon refunded my money.

Second. Worst. Customer. Service. Ever. - Topped only by B.T. back in the late nineties, but that's a whole other story of epic incompetence combined 'company policy' seemingly designed for no other purpose than to piss the customer off.
.
Rebellion, if you have any respect for your customers whatsoever, please, please don't use these utterly useless idiots for anything ever again.

P.S. Yup, contrary to my complaint in the previous post of not having time, I have been trawling through the thread after all (actually I really don't have time, I should be doing other stuff and am being quite naughty by not doing it).
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 23 October, 2013, 12:08:05 AM
When is the complete Big Dave hardback coming out?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 23 October, 2013, 01:26:46 AM
They should use Interlink next time, which as far as I can tell is some kind of anti-Yodel. Probably pricier though.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 23 October, 2013, 06:38:07 AM
Taking the day off work today to read my Complete Zenith with phase 4 for the 1st time.

So, some people have theirs already.

Perhaps because they are local.

: Dash Decent
I'm in Sydney

Another fellow Aussie...........G'day from Queensland.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 23 October, 2013, 09:09:14 AM
: Dash Decent
I'm in Sydney

Another fellow Aussie...........G'day from Queensland.

Forgot to mention I was living in Sydney back in the early naughties, from the January-February of 2002 to the April 2005.

I spent months living out of my Ford Utility, in a Caravan Park near Cronulla and on the streets, beaches and Computer Cafes. I worked unofficially as car-window-washer from late 2003 to April 2005 at Beverly Hills near Penshurst where I made a small fortune and kept all my gear in storage.

I am also responsible for cleaning most of the second hand books shops and old comic book stores out of any thing related to 2000AD and in particular Slaine. Yes, this was when the Lanely Droid had just started doing his Photo-Shop Wizardry on the our beloved Celtic-Berserker and this was what got me back into Slaine.

I was madly visiting every comic book store I could to get any of the Slaine that was currently running and all those Slaine progs that I missed out on since the early 90's. I even asked if they were still selling the Slaine Quality Editions at Comic Book Convention held in some huge building on Darling Harbour.

(http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Comic-Kingdom-22-2-620x465.jpg)

My favourite comic book store were and still are Comic-Kingdom (http://www.yelp.com.au/biz/comic-kingdom-sydney) on Liverpool Street after walking down George Street from The Event Cinemas until you get to The Three Wise Monkeys on the corner. Stepping into that place was like stepping into another world and this was where I first discovered the second Slaine Prog Moloch and I also brought a few more of the following Slaine progs there and what I couldn't get there. I found in various other newsagencies in the city. There was another Newsagency on the way to Kings-Cross (Of course, I did mostly otherwise avoid that place.) from Hyde Park.

(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRMZFxPYY-xaPeHuGpuCIgvRB6l0sNy1v9sRrXEPHto86e_3WuK)

Though it was in  Comic-Kingdom (http://www.comickingdom.com.au/) I also got the recently new (Recently new back in 2002-2003) Slaine : The Horned two volume edition. (One of which got badly water damaged, so I replaced it. Very strangely the damaged one got stolen from me while I was napping during transit on a train. I only had it just sitting on my lap.) and two early editions of Slaine the King. I think one of them was from Titan. I also brought a few of the Slaine Quality Editions here. Though there weren't many. The people that worked there very ornery and a little odd as well, but likeable. A lot of the stuff in there is mostly new and antique comics, action figures and other rare things as well.

(http://www.kingscomics.com/documents/Front2012.jpg)

Another favourite comic book store in Sydney was  Kings-Comics (http://www.kingscomics.com/) on Pitt Street in the main CBD as well. I use to always walk from Town-Hall station to The Event Cinemas again on George Street, cross the road and walk through alley-way between MacDonalds and The Metro Cinema and cross the road gain to get there. I think it was there that I put in a order over the counter for both the black and white, souvenir, hardback editions of Slaine : Time-Killer and Slaine : The King. I also brought two of the progs that covered Slaine : The Secret CommonWealth here as well Kings-Comics also had a store in Fox-Studios near Centennial and Moore parks. This was where I picked up Simon Bisley's Slaine Portfolio Kings-Comics had since vacated from Fox-Studios. All their stuff is new and they hardly ever got the Slaine progs I was after.

(http://nerdculturepodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Kings-Comics-pic6.jpg)

There is also  Games (http://www.gamesparadise.com.au/)-Paradise (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Games-Paradise-Australia/233647640686) which is across the road (Pitt Street) from  Kings-Comics (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Kings-Comics/135187129877432?directed_target_id=0) and this was just a gaming shop. Various board games, puzzle games on the ground level and role playing books and boxed sets upstairs. No comics, but It was here I had purchased most of Mongoose Publishing's Slaine RPG. I was most excited about this one at the time and still am. Most regrettably, I've never played this one and may never will.

(http://s3-media3.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/1HddCYli5mXoRuBoerX9rA/l.jpg)

TO BE CONTINUED......
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: 13school 24 October, 2013, 08:25:42 AM
My copy just arrived today in far-flung Geelong. Unless there's copies heading to Tasmania - or more likely, New Zealand - it's probably as far from Thrill-Power Central as you can get (and still be on Earth).
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dash Decent 24 October, 2013, 01:40:03 PM
It's disgusting, that's what it is!

My copy of Zenith arrived today too, but what should I find when I open it up?  The book, nestled snugly in protective bubble wrap, is also covered in thick spongy white pellets.

That's right - that sneery supercilious Betelguesian, the one whose diet consists soley of polystyrene cups, has covered it in Tharg poo.

Talk about disdain for your customers!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 24 October, 2013, 01:42:47 PM
Talk about disdain for your customers!

Big green bastard!

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 24 October, 2013, 01:48:14 PM
So, your both Australian and have yours both........

Hmmmm...mine hasn't.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 24 October, 2013, 02:10:16 PM
It's disgusting, that's what it is!

My copy of Zenith arrived today too, but what should I find when I open it up?  The book, nestled snugly in protective bubble wrap, is also covered in thick spongy white pellets.

That's right - that sneery supercilious Betelguesian, the one whose diet consists soley of polystyrene cups, has covered it in Tharg poo.

Talk about disdain for your customers!

A sprayed them orange and gave them to people as Wotsits
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 24 October, 2013, 09:44:48 PM
Come on 2000AD.....Come on.....
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 28 October, 2013, 06:54:00 AM
Yay, I got my Complete Zenith.

It looks good, it has what appears to be pin-ups section at the back, and page or double page of all the covers.

It has a dustcover that is black with a yellow Z on the front and Zenith in full frontal sillohette of Zenith on the front with a big yellow Z on his back and close up of Zenith's face on the back. Yellow on black. Zenith is written on both the front and back flaps, downwards. So you have to turn the book on it's side to read it.

When you take off the dustcover, there is a wraparound picture of Zenith, a close up view of his picture on the front dustcover. Black on yellow. With Zenith written in black on the front.

There is also the same picture of Zenith on the inside cover. Which is identical to his picture under th dustcover. His picture on the back inside cover is upside down.

At the bottom of the very first page of the inside cover is a small white rectangle which has a Z in black on the left with the words....

 Limited Edition
0581
of 1000 Copies


I may do a video of this later.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 28 October, 2013, 06:59:23 AM
I almost forgot, there is a yellow cloth book mark attached to the inner spine marking the Third Interlude.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dash Decent 28 October, 2013, 11:57:09 AM
Glad to hear it arrived safely, ThryllSeekyr!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Link Prime 28 October, 2013, 04:05:16 PM
Mine arrived from its perilous crossing of the Irish Sea.

Lovely looking book, although my Adams apple did stick in my neck when I admitted to the missus show much it cost (she'll never accept a slagging over a 75 Euro tube of face cream again!)
: Re: Re: Re: The Complete Zenith
: sheldipez 28 October, 2013, 05:27:19 PM
Mine arrived from its perilous crossing of the Irish Sea.

Lovely looking book, although my Adams apple did stick in my neck when I admitted to the missus show much it cost (she'll never accept a slagging over a 75 Euro tube of face cream again!)

Whats the resale value of a 75 euro tub of face cream though.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 28 October, 2013, 07:24:04 PM
You probably don't want to look on eBay at all the second-hand part-used cosmetics for sale. It's a bit grim.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 29 October, 2013, 06:37:11 AM
Limited Edition
0581
of 1000 Copies


I'm very interested to hear what numbered book out of 1000 other people have got?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Link Prime 29 October, 2013, 09:23:53 AM
You probably don't want to look on eBay at all the second-hand part-used cosmetics for sale. It's a bit grim.

Ha, there's probably a market for it too.

I'm number 0489 by the way TS.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin Zeal 29 October, 2013, 09:24:46 AM
Limited Edition
0581
of 1000 Copies


I'm very interested to hear what numbered book out of 1000 other people have got?

If you look back a few pages in this thread, you'll see a few of us put our numbers up. Think mine was in the 400s.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 29 October, 2013, 05:42:02 PM
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=271308737619&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNARL:GB:1123


Is it wrong to keep making offers of £100? :D
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 29 October, 2013, 05:46:42 PM
£100.05 plus a lovely cuddle...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 29 October, 2013, 05:56:25 PM
That's a lower offer than mine!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 29 October, 2013, 07:14:46 PM
He might be desperate for a cuddle; clearly he has no friends...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 29 October, 2013, 07:43:05 PM
Limited Edition
0581
of 1000 Copies


I'm very interested to hear what numbered book out of 1000 other people have got?

If you look back a few pages in this thread, you'll see a few of us put our numbers up. Think mine was in the 400s.

Oh, must have been a section of the thread I skipped over.

: Skullmo
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=271308737619&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNARL:GB:1123


Is it wrong to keep making offers of £100? :D

Now that is a outlandish price for just a book.


: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 29 October, 2013, 08:05:46 PM
He might be desperate for a cuddle; clearly he has no friends...

He sold them all on Ebay
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Batman's Superior Cousin 29 October, 2013, 08:28:26 PM
Limited Edition
0581
of 1000 Copies


I'm very interested to hear what numbered book out of 1000 other people have got?

If you look back a few pages in this thread, you'll see a few of us put our numbers up. Think mine was in the 400s.

Oh, must have been a section of the thread I skipped over.

: Skullmo
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=271308737619&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNARL:GB:1123


Is it wrong to keep making offers of £100? :D

Now that is a outlandish price for just a book.

Mine's 0306
: Re: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jo-L 02 November, 2013, 12:10:03 AM
Still waiting... Lah see dah
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Buttonman 07 November, 2013, 11:27:21 PM
I've stuck mine up on eBay. I know, I know but I knew I'd never read it for fear of dripping peanut butter all over its glossy pages. It's like the Dredd Medi-Kit all over again - I can't have nice things!

To show I'm not too greedy I've started it at 99p so maybe some one will get a bargain - hope not as 10% is going to Pudsy Bear! If Tharg is looking in I can guarantee any profits and indeed losses will be spent on his lovely wares over the weeks ahead.

If you fancy kicking the tyres the listing is HERE! (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=231090400026)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 08 November, 2013, 07:43:58 AM
I'll throw in a bid latter today B-man. In the name of the bear. ;)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Link Prime 08 November, 2013, 09:56:06 AM
Did any more sell on Ebay for a high price?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Enigmatic Dr X 08 November, 2013, 11:57:22 AM
I hope so because I'm going to list mine soon. If they're going for daft cash then I'm going to cash in. I've got the comics already and Christmas is coming. The cash should cover some prezzies!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Satanist 08 November, 2013, 11:59:17 AM
I hope so because I'm going to list mine soon. If they're going for daft cash then I'm going to cash in. I've got the comics already and Christmas is coming. The cash should cover some prezzies!

*cough* PS4
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Enigmatic Dr X 08 November, 2013, 01:39:21 PM
I hope so because I'm going to list mine soon. If they're going for daft cash then I'm going to cash in. I've got the comics already and Christmas is coming. The cash should cover some prezzies!

*cough* PS4

Like I said, a Christmas present from me to me.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 08 November, 2013, 04:32:37 PM
I've stuck mine up on eBay. I know, I know but I knew I'd never read it for fear of dripping peanut butter all over its glossy pages. It's like the Dredd Medi-Kit all over again - I can't have nice things!


"Will sell possessions for food and stamps".

Sickening.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Buttonman 08 November, 2013, 06:10:15 PM
Yea! Judgemental keyboard hero strikes! Careful getting off your high horse!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 08 November, 2013, 06:13:34 PM
Careful getting off your high horse!


I'd better not; you'd only barbecue the poor aul nag.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 08 November, 2013, 08:06:58 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 08 November, 2013, 08:36:16 PM
Chimera Scheme.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: sheldipez 03 December, 2013, 03:18:12 PM
Best sell your limited version if you're holding onto it purely for profit, price gonna take a plunge (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=49463)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin Zeal 03 December, 2013, 03:26:03 PM
Not exactly surprising. Now the diuscussion over whether or not to buy these as well as the Complete enith begins.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 03 December, 2013, 03:47:10 PM
Hardback for just one phase at a time? Seems a bit thin for that.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mattofthespurs 03 December, 2013, 03:58:07 PM
Pleased with this announcement.
As someone who could not afford the limited one this sounds, and this is not sour grapes I assure you, better.
I prefer smaller volumes than heftier ones and the chance to be able to get a slip case sounds like a great add on too.
With the added bonus that these four volumes, plus the slip case, will come in under the £100 (or thereabouts at least).
I would still buy a complete volume if it were possibly but only for the original price.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: robert_ellis 03 December, 2013, 04:22:15 PM
Wonder if the annual/special stories will make it in - or if volume 3 will be split.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 03 December, 2013, 04:27:07 PM
Not exactly a shock, and good on Rebellion for doing this. Fair enough with using the hardback format, although I'd have been perfectly happy with standard Rebellion paperbacks, which are usually very good quality. Bit of a difference in pricing across countries, though, which showcases costs on either side of the Atlantic!

costing £20 in the UK and $25

(VAT's not relevant, note, because books are zero-rated in the UK. Other costs are usually the issue when this happens, such as printing and shipping.)

Yes, the books will include newly commissioned material to complement each phase, with both art and feature material.
I'd happily pay £30 per book, mind, to get Yeowell to do a b+w version of that single Phase I colour page, and to redraw the few bits he didn't do for specials/annuals. (And a b+w Phase IV? In my alternate reality, that's the prize!)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 03 December, 2013, 04:30:03 PM
Yeah no real surprise given that there seems to have been no legal action taken (???) over the first release. I do wonder about the final cost though. Could well see the first two coming in £20 as reported. Phase three at at least £25 as it'll have a far higher page count. Phase 4 also £25 cos its in colour. A tenner for the slipcase and hey presto we'll all pay £100 any by stealth!

Still we'll have to wait and see. For me the question on whether I get these or not really depends on the dimensions of the books. If they are reduced to 'normal' trade size I'll pass I think.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: dweezil2 03 December, 2013, 04:36:23 PM
Great news!

I picked up the limited release, but I'll have these too I think.

Especially as there are rumoured extras!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dunk! 03 December, 2013, 04:45:54 PM
For me the question on whether I get these or not really depends on the dimensions of the books. If they are reduced to 'normal' trade size I'll pass I think.

Yeah, if they go back to the original published size then these become must haves for me, otherwise I'll stick with my complete.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 03 December, 2013, 05:10:13 PM
As they are 'normal' then I can just get them at some point in the future. Not bothered about chasing them  just yet, especially as I have my limited edition copy.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dodsy 03 December, 2013, 06:15:16 PM
For me the question on whether I get these or not really depends on the dimensions of the books. If they are reduced to 'normal' trade size I'll pass I think.

Yeah, if they go back to the original published size then these become must haves for me, otherwise I'll stick with my complete.

They confirmed that it will be original print size on Facebook
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Molch-R 03 December, 2013, 06:21:22 PM
They confirmed that it will be original print size on Facebook

No we didn't - we said "as close as we can get it".
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 03 December, 2013, 06:26:15 PM
No we didn't - we said "as close as we can get it".

Outrageous! Even though I haven't actually bought it, I want my money back! And the three hundred quid you've devalued my Complete Zenith by, you bastard!

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dodsy 03 December, 2013, 06:40:31 PM
They confirmed that it will be original print size on Facebook

No we didn't - we said "as close as we can get it".

Close enough lol
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Molch-R 03 December, 2013, 06:43:42 PM
Close enough lol

The correct choice of words makes all the difference, Earthlet ;)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 03 December, 2013, 06:44:49 PM
It's great Zenith will be widely available.

I am not so thrilled the £100 edition is going to suck in comparison to the new volumes, but at least I can feel virtuous knowing that had 1000 of us not stumped up a large wedge of cash, Zenith could well have stayed out of print forever.

Now, please stop messing around and get Luke Kirby sorted...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jo-L 03 December, 2013, 08:09:44 PM
They confirmed that it will be original print size on Facebook

No we didn't - we said "as close as we can get it".

Is there some sort of limitation on the printer side that would prevent the material from being printed in the original size?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 03 December, 2013, 08:12:59 PM
Is there some sort of limitation on the printer side that would prevent the material from being printed in the original size?

I'm pretty sure 2000AD changed physical page size at least once during Zenith's run, meaning it would be impossible to print all the pages at original printed size unless you did an oversize book to accommodate the whichever pages are the largest and put large white borders around the smaller ones…

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Richmond Clements 03 December, 2013, 09:27:50 PM
Digital version too, yeah..?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Spikes 03 December, 2013, 11:54:18 PM
Now that these are coming out; Whatever happened to that pallet(s) load of Zenith trades that wasn't able to be released - Was they all eventually pulped?

If not, then dust 'em off Mr Rebellion!  ;)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 04 December, 2013, 12:40:13 AM
What's this about Zenith Phase One & Zenith Phase Two and is this any different from The Complete Zenith.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin Zeal 04 December, 2013, 11:30:30 AM
Really? Ok then. The Complete Zenith contains every Zenith piece published. Rebellion have announced plans to release Phase I and Phase II of Zenith in seperate volumes. These will also have some extras but it isn't known what these will be yet. The later parts of the story (Phases III and IV) will follow at a date as yet unannounced.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 04 December, 2013, 11:31:24 AM
Who is this Zenith?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: James Stacey 04 December, 2013, 11:42:59 AM
Who is this Zenith?
I'm Zenith
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Recrewt 04 December, 2013, 12:16:18 PM
It's great Zenith will be widely available.

I am not so thrilled the £100 edition is going to suck in comparison to the new volumes, but at least I can feel virtuous knowing that had 1000 of us not stumped up a large wedge of cash, Zenith could well have stayed out of print forever.

Now, please stop messing around and get Luke Kirby sorted...

Interesting - what is it about these new volumes that makes you think the complete collection sucks?

I'm sure these will turn out to be the same page size, over four books for roughly the same price.  I can't see anything there that lessens the quality of the complete collection.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jo-L 04 December, 2013, 12:30:41 PM
Is there some sort of limitation on the printer side that would prevent the material from being printed in the original size?

I'm pretty sure 2000AD changed physical page size at least once during Zenith's run, meaning it would be impossible to print all the pages at original printed size unless you did an oversize book to accommodate the whichever pages are the largest and put large white borders around the smaller ones…

Cheers

Jim

I am pretty sure that's right.  I'm also pretty sure that Phases 1-3 were all the same dimensions.  I am not 100% sure if the prog got larger or smaller after that.  In either case, why would Rebellion not adjust to the larger size?  I could also sizing each book appropriately according to the originals, though I could see collectors losing their minds if books within the same series were released with different dimensions.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dodsy 04 December, 2013, 12:42:40 PM
Who is this Zenith?
I'm Zenith

NO! I'M ZENITH  :D

Was recently given a run of 2000AD's from around 350-950 from a generous forum member and have been working my way through them prog by prog but I'm jumping ahead starting tonight to read Zenith in its entirity, if i enjoy it then I'll be putting in a pre-order for the individual forums.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jimmy Baker's Assistant 04 December, 2013, 12:45:41 PM

Interesting - what is it about these new volumes that makes you think the complete collection sucks?

I'm sure these will turn out to be the same page size, over four books for roughly the same price.  I can't see anything there that lessens the quality of the complete collection.

Suck in comparison, but obviously it'll still be great because it's Zenith.

However, using the proper page sizes will be a big improvement, and the promised new extras would have to be pretty bad not to add value.

I don't agree it will be roughly the same price either. Given the big book was actually £108 thanks to a compulsory postage surcharge, whereas the new books will (presumably) be available on amazon, so knock off 25% of the cover price, with free delivery.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Tiplodocus 04 December, 2013, 12:46:26 PM
Fantastic news - I may be able to justify buying these in bits and pieces to Mrs Tips.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 04 December, 2013, 01:07:46 PM
It'd be interesting to know how many people have put in a pre-order considering it's so far away. Makes sense for the limited edition but less so for the normal version.
I know the money gets taken on order so I supposed you can be nicely surprised come next year?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: hippynumber1 04 December, 2013, 02:11:27 PM
Who is this Zenith?
I'm Zenith

NO! I'M ZENITH  :D

I'm Zenith and so's my wife!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 04 December, 2013, 02:17:02 PM
why would Rebellion not adjust to the larger size?  I could also sizing each book appropriately according to the originals, though I could see collectors losing their minds if books within the same series were released with different dimensions.

Then they won't all fit neatly into a slipcase.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Last of the V8's 04 December, 2013, 02:24:32 PM
I've not posted on here for ages but I feel I have to vent this as it has made me quite angry and pretty disgusted at Rebellions decision to reprint this already. Did they not say that the version out a few months ago would never be reprinted?
Oh sorry, what a sucker they meant not reprinted in that size and colour. £108, not really worth the money in the first place but as its " never to be reprinted" I shelled out as a lifelong fan of 2000ad.
If these version have more content than the first version that would be a right smack in the face to fans and , not that I will sell it, but that so called limited Edition now devalued to boot.
Thang the mighty, more at hard the money grabber.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Last of the V8's 04 December, 2013, 02:34:31 PM
Sorry that last line should read Less Tharg the Mighty more Tharg the money grabber.
Not that I'm bitter and twisted but it is a bit much so soon after the other edition.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 04 December, 2013, 02:41:12 PM
I've not posted on here for ages but I feel I have to vent this as it has made me quite angry and pretty disgusted at Rebellions decision to reprint this already. Did they not say that the version out a few months ago would never be reprinted?
Oh sorry, what a sucker they meant not reprinted in that size and colour. £108, not really worth the money in the first place but as its " never to be reprinted" I shelled out as a lifelong fan of 2000ad.
If these version have more content than the first version that would be a right smack in the face to fans and , not that I will sell it, but that so called limited Edition now devalued to boot.
Thang the mighty, more at hard the money grabber.

They aren't reprinting it in one volume so it is still a limited edition and Rebellion aren't screwing anyone:

Never collected in its entirety before, this is a unique opportunity to own the whole of Morrison’s first superhero series in a never-to-be-repeated format (http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2013/05/2000adrebellion-announces-the-complete-zenith/)



: Re: The Complete Zenith
: JOE SOAP 04 December, 2013, 02:50:32 PM
Not that I'm bitter and twisted but it is a bit much so soon after the other edition.


I wouldn't call a publishing date of December 2014 'soon'.


: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mattofthespurs 04 December, 2013, 03:00:42 PM
Not that I'm bitter and twisted but it is a bit much so soon after the other edition.


I wouldn't call a publishing date of December 2014 'soon'.

The older I get the quicker the year flies by.

Sadly December 2014 feels quite soon to me.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 04 December, 2013, 03:34:44 PM
If these version have more content than the first version that would be a right smack in the face to fans and , not that I will sell it, but that so called limited Edition now devalued to boot.
There will never be more copies of that limited edition, and so I imagine it will hold its price for the most part. What's gone is the possibility of selling it for something ludicrous like 500 quid. That said, I'll bet people could still sell it for a decent amount before this news spreads widely.

As for £108, it'll be interesting to see how the new volumes compare. I can't imagine you'd get any change at RRP from £108… (Amazon is another matter, given how that company doesn't care about profits, but even so I see plenty of hardbacks on there often not being discounted much or at all.)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Enigmatic Dr X 04 December, 2013, 03:39:30 PM
Bugger. There goes my get-a-PS4-quick plan.

Anyone want a sealed limited edition?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 04 December, 2013, 04:56:11 PM
As I missed the limited release i'll be getting these phase HB's.  :D
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mattofthespurs 04 December, 2013, 06:20:23 PM

As for £108, it'll be interesting to see how the new volumes compare. I can't imagine you'd get any change at RRP from £108… (Amazon is another matter, given how that company doesn't care about profits, but even so I see plenty of hardbacks on there often not being discounted much or at all.)

I'll be surprised if the total cost, via Amazon from whom I'll be purchasing the volumes from, comes out at more than £100.

From my buying status I rarely purchase anything from Amazon that isn't at least 30% lower than RRP.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Dodsy 04 December, 2013, 06:34:25 PM
Aren't these new editions exclusive to the 2000AD store? Or is it just the pre-ordering that is exclusive?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Molch-R 04 December, 2013, 06:40:27 PM
Aren't these new editions exclusive to the 2000AD store? Or is it just the pre-ordering that is exclusive?

Just the pre-ordering.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mark Taylor 04 December, 2013, 06:58:44 PM
Bugger. There goes my get-a-PS4-quick plan.

Anyone want a sealed limited edition?

Sure, I'll give you £30 for it.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IronGraham 04 December, 2013, 07:03:07 PM

Interesting - what is it about these new volumes that makes you think the complete collection sucks?

I'm sure these will turn out to be the same page size, over four books for roughly the same price.  I can't see anything there that lessens the quality of the complete collection.

Suck in comparison, but obviously it'll still be great because it's Zenith.

However, using the proper page sizes will be a big improvement, and the promised new extras would have to be pretty bad not to add value.

I don't agree it will be roughly the same price either. Given the big book was actually £108 thanks to a compulsory postage surcharge, whereas the new books will (presumably) be available on amazon, so knock off 25% of the cover price, with free delivery.
I think these will also be 2000AD exclusive
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Mark Taylor 04 December, 2013, 07:04:33 PM
I think these will also be 2000AD exclusive

Nope.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IronGraham 04 December, 2013, 07:08:57 PM
Ok cool have to see when they pop up on Amazon

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IronGraham 04 December, 2013, 08:24:52 PM
well mine are ordered now I play the waiting game
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Monarch 05 December, 2013, 01:05:08 AM
well considering I never got my copy of the complete one due to a-holes (not talking about forum guys) buying the complete edition just to sell it on I welcome our single phase hardcover overlords...

just hope they have the interludes and other gubbins the complete one had
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: ThryllSeekyr 05 December, 2013, 05:24:33 AM
Who is this Zenith?
I'm Zenith

NO! I'M ZENITH  :D

I'm Zenith and so's my wife!

NO, It's me and my entire family and the other family that live down the road from us as well  :D
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 05 December, 2013, 07:19:49 AM
well considering I never got my copy of the complete one due to a-holes (not talking about forum guys) buying the complete edition just to sell it on I welcome our single phase hardcover overlords...

Were you on holiday? It took over 2 days for them all to be sold.

At least you'll only need half the space on your bookshelf as well! :)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Monarch 05 December, 2013, 11:20:35 AM
A serious lack of money at the time

 when payday came round the buggers were gone :lol:
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Adventurer 05 December, 2013, 11:26:48 AM
Can we get confirmation if the new single Phase editions will have digital editions? Because that sure would be swell.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Molch-R 05 December, 2013, 11:48:24 AM
Can we get confirmation if the new single Phase editions will have digital editions? Because that sure would be swell.

Day-and-date digital on all the platforms we currently support (iPad, Kindle Fire, Kobo etc.)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IronGraham 05 December, 2013, 12:06:25 PM
You spoil us so much
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Molch-R 05 December, 2013, 12:11:46 PM
You spoil us so much

We know.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: opaque 05 December, 2013, 10:49:58 PM
A serious lack of money at the time

 when payday came round the buggers were gone :lol:

Well you have plenty of time to save the money up now if it's gong to take 2 years for all 4 to come out!
Won't get caught out again ;)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Monarch 07 December, 2013, 12:45:52 AM
i got the first two volumes saved up for already
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Enigmatic Dr X 24 March, 2014, 07:45:03 PM
So.

At the risk of re-igniting the flames here, what should I be flogging my sealed complete Zenith for?

I bought it to re-read it, thinking it would be the only edition. I was on holiday when it came, and when I heard what they were going for decided not to open it: Mrs X would nag me forever for doing such a thing. Then, when I first listed it, bloomin' LMS announced Tharg was doing a four Phase collection.

I'll buy them, thanks, and not feel guilty when my boys read them.

Long story short: what's a fair price?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 24 March, 2014, 07:51:23 PM
I'll give you £100.01 for it. ;)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Enigmatic Dr X 24 March, 2014, 07:52:53 PM
I'll give you £100.01 for it. ;)

That's not very helpful.

But thanks for your kind thoughts.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 24 March, 2014, 07:58:37 PM
Good God — there are three on eBay right now for a grand, eight hundred quid and four hundred quid…

It's only a bloody comic!

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Spikes 24 March, 2014, 08:00:52 PM
Indeed. These seemed to fly off eBay when folks first put them up, but (crazy prices aside) they seem to hang around a bit longer now.

Has the bubble burst?
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Enigmatic Dr X 24 March, 2014, 08:04:40 PM
Indeed. These seemed to fly off eBay when folks first put them up, but (crazy prices aside) they seem to hang around a bit longer now.

Has the bubble burst?

Frigging hope not!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: The Corinthian 26 March, 2014, 06:50:23 PM
I have the five Titan collections and the original progs with Phase IV, so was never going to buy the complete hardcover - but upgrading to a collect Phase IV is tempting...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Recrewt 26 March, 2014, 09:29:39 PM
You can view completed listings on ebay to get an idea of what something is worth.  Not many have sold recently but in January a couple went for £130 and £150.  I think that is a bit low as although there are other books coming out, this is still the only complete collection.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 26 March, 2014, 09:45:30 PM
Not many have sold recently but in January a couple went for £130 and £150

As an investment, you'd be better off sticking £100 in an ISA.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Skullmo 26 March, 2014, 09:56:02 PM
Not many have sold recently but in January a couple went for £130 and £150

As an investment, you'd be better off sticking £100 in an ISA.

ISAs are also a great read
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Jim_Campbell 28 May, 2014, 10:36:31 AM
Just an interesting tangent to the legal issues. 20th Century Danny Boy has some deposition transcripts from the Gaiman/McFarlane legal tussles (http://ohdannyboy.blogspot.com.au/2014/05/humility-its-not-word-that-todd-would.html)* and one doesn't have to read very far to find this:

NG:  I wanted to write for DC Comics.
Q:  Why is that?
NG:  2000 A.D. stuff that was published, I rapidly realized that they were taking all rights to the work I did.
Q:  Who do you mean by they?
NG:  2000 A.D., at that point I think it was Fleetway Publications. One had to sign over all rights and I saw stories I had written reprinted in American editions and that they gave me no copies of and that I was not paid for.
Q:  When you wrote for the comic 2000 A.D., were you paid for that work?
NG:  Yes.
Q:  Were you paid a flat fee for turning in the script?
NG:  Yes.
Q:  Did you sign a contract with, was it Fleetway Publishing?
NG:  Yes, it was a back-of-the-check contract at the time.
Q:  And did that back-of-the-check contract state that you were granting all rights in the work you were turning in to Fleetway Publishing?
NG:  I no longer remember.
Q:  How do you know that they were taking all rights?
NG:  Because they never paid anything else for use.
Q:  Were you finished with that?
NG:  I am now.
Q:  Did you ever complain about that to Fleetway?
NG:  I spoke to Steve MacManus, the editor, who said that was how they did it and they would love to change it, but it wasn’t changed. And that was the last thing I did for 2000 A.D.
Q:  When you say they were taking all rights, what do you mean by the term all rights?
NG:  In this case I mean specifically reprint rights without payment.


So we're supposed to believe that Neil Gaiman, on the basis of writing four Future Shocks had a clear understanding of the rights situation with Fleetway where Morrison, with substantially more 2000AD work under his belt (and he claims to have been an old hand in The Biz by this point, remember) ploughed into a major work like Zenith with either a) no clue as to the rights situation or b) the belief that he was going to get a creator-owned deal unlike any other creator working for the title but never got it in writing…?

You may colour me slightly sceptical.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: TordelBack 28 May, 2014, 10:49:20 AM
Gaiman's no fool, and his approach is the correct one:  don't like it, move on sharpish. I've said it before, but if you are entering into a work arrangement where you expect to see anything other than a straight cheque for the work done, you would get yourself a written agreement - especially something as complex and open-ended as reprint fees, foreign editions, IP ownership... 

I can't believe Morrison is/was any more of a fool than Gaiman, and the very existence of the Complete Zenith suggests that he wasn't. 
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: 13school 01 June, 2014, 05:23:09 AM
Gaiman had already had an extensive career as a freelance journalist by the time he entered comics, so it's probably reasonable to assume he was a bit more clued-in as to the importance of retaining (or being paid extra for) various rights than a lot of the people working in comics at the time.

By the time of his 2000ad work Gaiman had done celebrity interviews that he (in theory) could repackage into a book and sell to a publisher, whereas the idea of taking a bunch of Future Shocks and getting DC to put them out probably would have seemed unlikely to many creators (again, at the time).

Though I remember at least one older interview where Gaiman said he left 2000ad because one of his scripts had been heavily re-written without his input. Considering that 2000ad (and British comics in general) at that stage was largely seen just as a stepping stone to the US market, if he could already get work at DC his sticking with 2000ad seems a little unlikely just on career terms. And Gaiman's always had one eye on his career.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 01 June, 2014, 08:42:07 AM
Gaiman ... was a bit more clued-in as to the importance of retaining (or being paid extra for) various rights than a lot of the people working in comics at the time

... but not Morrison. He'd been hanging out with 2000ad creators at conventions since the early eighties, and it's stretching credulity to suggest he was entirely ignorant of the way it and EVERY OTHER UK COMIC at that time treated staff. The way publishers like IPC and Thomson treated creators was shameful, and I'd be on Morrison's side if it wasn't for the cupidity of his insistence that labour conditions on the Kings Reach Tower plantation were a revelation to him.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: 13school 01 June, 2014, 10:54:29 AM
I tend to think of it as Morrison seeing Zenith as nothing more than a paycheck / disposable work to get his name out there to DC, and therefore not really caring about the rights situation at IPC at the time. People who work for 2000ad get jobs at DC, therefore the trade-off for signing your rights away is getting work at DC.

Of course, as the years pass and Zenith actually looks like it might be more than just embarrassing early work / a stepping stone to the States and has value in its own right, it's not that surprising Morrison takes more of an interest in it.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: GordonR 01 June, 2014, 12:57:13 PM
I tend to think of it as Morrison seeing Zenith as nothing more than a paycheck / disposable work to get his name out there to DC, and therefore not really caring about the rights situation at IPC at the time. People who work for 2000ad get jobs at DC, therefore the trade-off for signing your rights away is getting work at DC.

Of course, as the years pass and Zenith actually looks like it might be more than just embarrassing early work / a stepping stone to the States and has value in its own right, it's not that surprising Morrison takes more of an interest in it.

Nonsense. It's far too strong a piece of work for the reductive/dismissive argument you want to construct around it. Yes, Grant wanted to work for the US market, and, yes, Zenith was what got him there, but it's also clearly a work he cared a lot about. You can see it in the early character designs he created for the strip, and in the far more disciplined plotting that it features, compared to his previous work.

If it was only a means to an end, then why is he still writing it on 1989/90, when he's already a success in the US? Why does he return to it again even later on with Phase IV, when he's even more successful elsewhere?  Why didn't he walk away from it with a disinterested shrug after Phase II, if it was a paycheque/disposable work that had already achieved its purpose to get him where he wanted to be?  (In this alternative universe, Mark Millar would surely have taken up the reins on it, and, indeed I seem to remember some vague plan at one point for Mark to do a Zenith spin-off strip, but that's a different story...)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: 13school 01 June, 2014, 01:07:53 PM
Sorry if I've come across as dismissing Zenith as anything less than the great story it is, or if I've slagged off Morrison's career in any way. I'm probably far too influenced by his Titan volume introductions and the "Drivel" he was writing for Speakeasy at the time, which gave off the impression that a lot of his commercial work (inc Arkham Asylum) were written more for career moves while his real artistic thrust was writing plays, smaller comic work, etc.

I'd never suggest that Morrison was even remotely hack-like in his approach to his writing, but it's perfectly possible for him to both put his very best efforts into a series and hope it might be a launching pad to bigger and better things down the line.

(though I'm sure there's a number of early 90s interviews floating around where he talks about having to wrap Zenith up with Phase 4 as something of a chore, as he felt its time had passed and he'd moved on personally.)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 01 June, 2014, 01:24:14 PM

It isn't necessary to construct Morrison as a cynical hack with no creative investment in Zenith whatsoever to put forward the argument that a freelance writer always keeps as many potential revenue streams open as possible. Nobody ever does anything for a single, unambiguous reason.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: 13school 01 June, 2014, 02:22:22 PM
I tend to think of it as Morrison seeing Zenith as nothing more than a paycheck / disposable work to get his name out there to DC.

With the benefit of extracting my head from my arse, I'd change this line to "I tend to think of it as Morrison seeing Zenith as something that could, if done right, get his name out there to DC."
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 03 June, 2014, 11:41:59 AM
Can Molch-R confirm if the final volune will feature the one shots and text story? I would assume it will but just to be certain...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 03 June, 2014, 12:11:05 PM
I'd hope the one-shots would be in-sequence, rather than bunged at the end. (I'm… less fussed, let's say, about text stories.)
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Molch-R 03 June, 2014, 12:27:35 PM
The books will have some of the extras, but not all of them. As to where they will appear, a decision hasn't been taken on that as of yet.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: robert_ellis 09 June, 2014, 10:03:03 AM
It's great to have Zenith on the shelf but it feels like there's something missing...
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 09 June, 2014, 11:52:08 AM
The books will have some of the extras, but not all of them. As to where they will appear, a decision hasn't been taken on that as of yet.
To my mind, the only really important thing is to ensure anything critical to the ongoing narrative is in sequence. Any more incidental stuff doesn't matter so much. A (rare) example of where Rebellion unfortunately got that wrong is in the third Nemesis volume, where the Winter Special story about Candida being freed from her madness by Nemesis is placed in the extras, yet it's actually a pivotal plot point that's referenced in the main arc.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Hawkmumbler 09 June, 2014, 12:06:46 PM
Surely Zzzenith.com is just as imporant. Where else will you see Robot Archie violate Madona?

On second thoughts....
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 09 June, 2014, 03:29:03 PM
Wasn't it Britney Spears? I actually quite liked that strip—it was to the 2000s what Phase IV was to the 1990s and the rest of Zenith was to the 1980s.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: robert_ellis 09 June, 2014, 03:36:56 PM
I'd rather all stories were put in publication order - which I guess is usually the story order, with the annual/special stories reprinted in the main volume. I guess the majority of these stories are non-essential to the main series - but the Nemesis ones (including the posterprog one) are.
I love zzzenith.com - great designs and a bonkers story.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 13 June, 2014, 06:45:47 AM
Apparently this is still news... though there is little news in this fairly poorly researched article. I post it here... well cos I had to read it so you might as well!

http://www.bleedingcool.com/forums/front-page-comic-news/83457-paperbacks-impending-hardcover-zenith-worth-wait.html (http://www.bleedingcool.com/forums/front-page-comic-news/83457-paperbacks-impending-hardcover-zenith-worth-wait.html)

Oh and as far as I can see the headline doesn't actually bear any relevance!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 13 June, 2014, 07:05:39 AM

Bleeding Cool's first review of the limited edition hardcover, by BC contributor Dave Wallace mentions Rebellion's promise that Zenith would, and we quote, never be reprinted [again] ... A cash grab? Sounds like it.

Well, duh. The promotion said the limited edition hardcover collecting every Zenith story in a single volume would never be reprinted, not that there would never be large print run paperbacks reprinting the separate chapters.

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin Zeal 13 June, 2014, 09:55:11 AM
A strange article really, as Sauchie points out Rebellion aren't reprinting the Complete Zenith. Not surprised though considering the writer thinks that 2000AD is a monthly title.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 13 June, 2014, 10:00:48 AM
Rebellion?s promise that Zenith would, and we quote, ?never be reprinted (again)
Nice, as others have said, the way they leave off the qualifier, which was along the lines of "in this format" (i.e. a collected hardcover). It was pretty bloody obvious at the time that if all went well, Rebellion would release individual volumes at some point. I imagine some people are just pissed off because their £100 suddenly isn't 'worth' stupid money on eBay.

I'd rather all stories were put in publication order
Likewise. Zenith, like Nemesis, is a far cry from more episodic strips like Strontium Dog and Dredd, where the annual/special stories were generally throwaway and at an unknown point in continuity—instead, those things were intrinsic to the story. Given the hard word going into making sure the Daily Star strips are complete, it'd be extremely weird if Zenith wasn't.
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 13 June, 2014, 10:11:11 AM
Yeah wasn't going to bother posting it as it was such a poor article but thought it worthwhile just to illustrate the type on nonsense that people will spout about stuff (oh the irony, I know, I know) just to keep this one bubbling away.

Aside from all the factual errors the biggest problem with it is it serves no purpose at all. Has no relevant news, is a vague review of something that came out an age ago (as people have said) and couldn't buy if they wanted to... well not at a realistic price anyway. So what were they trying to do and my only guess is get some clicks off Zenith again.

Does test the cliche - there's no such thing as bad publicity!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: IndigoPrime 13 June, 2014, 10:44:29 AM
If only they could somehow squeeze Alan Moore, Apple and the World Cup into the title, it'd be click-bait heaven!
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 13 June, 2014, 01:01:39 PM
"Alan Moore rip-off (well he thinks so anyway!) 'Zenith' reprints as World Cup start means hardcover looses its Appeal"

Close as I could get it! 
: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Frank 13 June, 2014, 01:13:27 PM
It was pretty bloody obvious at the time that if all went well, Rebellion would release individual volumes at some point

The Bleeding Cool preview the author of that article links to for that quote about the collected Zenith never being reprinted ends with Rich Johnston describing paperback editions as "an inevitability". D'oh!

: Re: The Complete Zenith
: Colin YNWA 01 May, 2016, 09:54:08 PM
Well I've not read the actual Complete Zenith but over the last 4 nights, at the rate of a phase an evening, I've read Zenith in its entity via the four rather wonderful hardcovers. And you know I ain't going to do that without inflicting my opinion of it on you lot and so this seems as good a place as any to do so.

So where to begin? So much to say. Okay I'll try to keep this brief (ish).

When ever CBR or rather Comics Should be Good have one of those votes for your 10 ten runs or stories, whichever, Zenith always comes near the top, if not top three, if not the very top. When I do this I do wonder if its cos of some nostaglic rememberance of what it means to me, or how it helped shape me as a reader. Or how it so perfectly fitted the first generation Colin Comic Reader back in the day.

Then I read it again - as I've possibly done more than any other comic (?)

And I realise I do it as its quite possibly in my top 10, possibly top 3 comics of all times. Its quite supreme. Now part of that might well be all wrapped in what I've said up there in paragraph 3 BUT regardless its true. I love this comic strip. I looked back at an old review I did of it from wayyyy back and realised much of what I wanted to say is there. So I'll do that must egotistical of things and quote myself

Zenith is a prototype for so much of the world expanding brillance that Morrison has done elsewhere and particularly at DC. It might not be as refined as his later writing but it has a freshness and energy that is never quite repeated in his later stuff like Final Crisis (which is itself brillant). Its like a great bands first ablum, later works might be technically better, have a greater scope, variety and edge but they will never recapture that initial raw energy, daring and unbound joy in whats being created.

Which I kinda stand by BUT have also realised on this more compacted read that there are two factors that I've not included there. Firstly its so complete. Very often the comics I love the most are those that stretch me, that I know I don't get entirely. When they are good its so exciting to know I'll go back and read them again and get something more, something new, a fresh insight. That's really a compelling thing. Not so however Zenith. I read Zenith and my reading of it is complete. I get everything I need to, want to and think I will ever find. Its all there for me, and feels so satisfyingly complete.

The way the four phases build on each other, so gloriously ploted across the piece. They escalate in scale (well pausing for Phase 2 that is quite the most exquisite example of exposition and set up dressed gloriously into a story) Phase to Phase so that by the end of Phase 4 there really doesn't feel like there's anywhere else this needs to go. So ya know we can all ignore Zzzzenith right. I know I will in future. I get everything I need and want from it in a story and while that gives it nowhere else to take me that is very, very satisfying.

Secondly its very 2000adness makes it completely unique in superhero fare. Its a tight, lean, mean, cynical, antiauthoritarian, counter intuitive. It manages a wonderful trick, particularly in the sublime Phase 3, of managing to create the vast scale of the best of mainstream epic events. In a wonderful compact space it creates a wonderful range of characters you've barely met yet care a lot about. Yet cos its 2000ad and it knows the consequence of this type of stuff it shows you the devastating impact. Without mercy and without the inevitable reprieve that the other superhero Crisis or Secret Wars in heaven allow. Its gives you the Gods battling, lets you embrace the impossible fantasy of it all and yet tricks you into feeling its as real as can be.

One thing I got wrong last time was

While Morrison's writing is the star of the show, as it nearly always is, Steve Yeowell's art isn't far behind. I agree with your opinion about the change to colour reducing the quality of his work a little but its never less than brillant.

Cos to be honest on this reading its actually Steve Yeowell's art that's the star. It starts off great and reaches... well these things are mercurial ... but reaches the very zen... peak of 2000ad art. I'll say it now and regret it in the morning but Yeowell's art in Phase 3 is my favourite comics art ever... there said it. Now watch me change your mind. The fact that its my fav 2000ad art probably means its my favourite comics art ever AND that's saying quite something.

Okay so its a shame that Phase 4 is during one of my least favourite Yeowell styles BUT my least favourite Yeowell is still amongst my favourite overall all. So yeah Morrison is an absolute HyperGod of writing in this. The Mighty Yeowell is somehow something more.

There was more I intended to say BUT if any bugger has bothered to get this far I think I've put you through quite enough so I'll leave it there except to say this story, as a whole is the complete masterpiece.