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General Chat => Film & TV => : TordelBack 23 January, 2017, 04:29:12 PM

: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 23 January, 2017, 04:29:12 PM
And so we have a an official title (http://www.starwars.com/news/the-official-title-for-star-wars-episode-viii-revealed).  It's another very safe broad-recognition choice from Disney, not for them Menaces or Clones, and it seems a bit unfortunate to use 'Jedi' a second time, forcing even non-nerds to use annoying acronyms in future discussions.  I certainly don't hate it, but hopefully this lack of imagination doesn't extend to the film itself. 

Anyone going to give me odds on Episode 9 simply being 'The Dark Side'?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Smith 23 January, 2017, 04:47:49 PM
We know whats Episode 9 going to be.  ;)
(http://i.imgur.com/ZOa4k7f.png)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: von Boom 23 January, 2017, 04:57:06 PM
The Last anything has a fairly good track record:

The Last Boy Scout
The Last King of Scotland
The Last Samurai
The Last of the Mohicans
...

These films and others are fairly well rated, so perhaps there is hope.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 23 January, 2017, 05:04:23 PM
Another movie as averse to effort as TFA I can do without.  Anthology and fan movies only for me from now on.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Satanist 23 January, 2017, 05:18:58 PM
and here I had a fiver on "The Midichlorians Ascend"

I suppose it might not be a direct ref to Luke?

There is another!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 23 January, 2017, 05:26:46 PM
Leia doesn't count as a Jedi because she's a girl.  Nor Ray, either, so the title is clearly a reference to Luke.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tjm86 23 January, 2017, 05:43:27 PM
The Last anything has a fairly good track record:


These films and others are fairly well rated, so perhaps there is hope.

Bugger!  Now you've got me thinking of the next Star Wars film as a reboot of Last of The Summer Wine.

Now that would be a mashup and a half!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mister Pops 23 January, 2017, 05:51:37 PM
Are we actually going to start making judgements on a movie based on nothing but the title?

Of course we are!

I love it, I think it's brilliant and I can't wait to buy all the merchandise...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Enigmatic Dr X 23 January, 2017, 06:05:15 PM
And so we have a an official title (http://www.starwars.com/news/the-official-title-for-star-wars-episode-viii-revealed).  It's another very safe broad-recognition choice from Disney, not for them Menaces or Clones, and it seems a bit unfortunate to use 'Jedi' a second time, forcing even non-nerds to use annoying acronyms in future discussions.  I certainly don't hate it, but hopefully this lack of imagination doesn't extend to the film itself. 

Anyone going to give me odds on Episode 9 simply being 'The Dark Side'?

Ep 9 is "The Balance of the Force", and deals with Luke being both light and dark like a ninja. So says me, to anyonw who will listen. Plus it follows the nomenclature of the last two trilogies.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Buttonman 23 January, 2017, 06:17:04 PM
The Last anything has a fairly good track record:

The Last Boy Scout
The Last King of Scotland
The Last Samurai
The Last of the Mohicans
...

These films and others are fairly well rated, so perhaps there is hope.

The Last American Virgin.

The theory holds!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Enigmatic Dr X 23 January, 2017, 06:29:58 PM
The Last Boy Scout - awesome movie

The Last Ninja - awesome game

Last Orders - bah!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 23 January, 2017, 06:38:26 PM
Should've been the title for Ep. 8, since that was ya know, the McGuffin.



: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: von Boom 23 January, 2017, 06:46:19 PM
The Last anything has a fairly good track record:


These films and others are fairly well rated, so perhaps there is hope.

Bugger!  Now you've got me thinking of the next Star Wars film as a reboot of Last of The Summer Wine.

Now that would be a mashup and a half!

Dear Grud now I'm picturing Luke as Cleggy, Han as Foggy, Chewbakka as Compo and Leia as Nora Batty!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tjm86 23 January, 2017, 07:13:25 PM
I was actually thinking about it the other way round!  Cleggy as Luke, Nora Batty as Leia ....   ::)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: von Boom 23 January, 2017, 07:33:29 PM
Nora Batty in a gold bikini. There's an image that you won't soon forget.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 23 January, 2017, 07:53:41 PM
The Last anything has a fairly good track record:


These films and others are fairly well rated, so perhaps there is hope.

Bugger!  Now you've got me thinking of the next Star Wars film as a reboot of Last of The Summer Wine.

Now that would be a mashup and a half!


Compo's definitely got the physique for Yoda.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Colin YNWA 23 January, 2017, 09:08:08 PM
I was going to make some serious (well for me) fanboy comments on the fact that the one good thing the rubbish trilogy did was the names that really harked back to the serials that the films are sporned from and 'The Last Jedi' is utterly flat and uninspiring ... but then you lot came along and started making it clear this wasn't something to be taken seriously with your wringly stockings talk and I felt foolish for trying to be serious.

So glad I didn't attempt to make serious comment on this disappearing reveal, I'd have looked a right numpty.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 23 January, 2017, 10:09:08 PM
I'll take it seriously.

Cool name for the film, im pleased. Better than "the force awakens".
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 24 January, 2017, 12:27:21 AM
I'll take it seriously.

Cool name for the film, im pleased. Better than "the force awakens".

I like it as a name, and it means we don't know who the Last Jedi is.  It could continue to be Luke (with Rey being something other than a Jedi), it could be Rey (with Luke either dying or turning to the Dark Side) or it could be something else entirely.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 24 January, 2017, 01:40:00 AM

Or Luke is the last Jedi ever and the philosophy of his Force teachings will change - as long as the franchise can survive and Disney allow that.


: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 24 January, 2017, 01:55:00 AM
It's also somewhat of an 80s throwback - makes me think of The Last Starfighter.

Or Luke is the last Jedi ever and the philosophy of his Force teachings will change - as long as the franchise can survive and Disney allow that.

I've often thought that Lucas* really painted Star Wars into a narrative corner by firmly establishing that a) jedis are celibate monks and b) there can only ever be two sith at any one time. In the spin-offs and subsequent films they have really had to bend these rules to breaking point.

*Think I'm right in saying that those two things are prequel inventions?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mardroid 24 January, 2017, 02:36:09 AM
I like it as a name, and it means we don't know who the Last Jedi is.  It could continue to be Luke (with Rey being something other than a Jedi), it could be Rey (with Luke either dying or turning to the Dark Side) or it could be something else entirely.

Yes. Technically Luke would be the last Jedi, at the moment anyway. Leia never received the training (as far as I'm aware. I guess she might have between films) and Rey isn't a Jedi yet. (We know just having force ability doesn't make one a jedi.) And Kylo is a knight of Ren* not a Jedi. Presumably all the other padawans at Skywalker college are dead.

Of course, once Rey is trained up that would make her the last Jedi, or the first of a new lot. (Or even something else as you say.) 'Last' is often interpreted as final, but it can have an elastic quality. I've got no children, or siblings, so I'm the last of my line (not including cousins - a few of those have kids). But it's possible I might father a child in future, although I doubt it. Either way I'm the last Mardroid right now. :lol:

The film title is simple but I think I like it. It does seem to suggest that Luke will be a large focus of the film, which is welcome. I hope they don't kill him off at the end to pass on the baton/lightsaber as it were, since they did that already with Kenobi, and it's become a bit of a cliche in films where mentor types are concerned. It's fine that the new trilogy films follow Rey as the new eyes into this world. She represents the future, but the old needn't be done away with yet.

*And possibly a Sith. Kylo Ren is basically the same thing anyway. Of course we know from the cartoons that there can be other dark-side force-users as demonstrated by The Inquisitors and the bald minx with the two lightsabers, whose name has skipped my memory, with the two Sith lords (Sidious and Dooku**) pulling the strings. I wonder if it turns out that Kylo Ren is just a pawn of that nature and there are actually two sith rather than just Snoke in the background. Probably , not. I think that would be too complicated.

** And of course there was Maul and Savage too, but each group did't consider the other sith.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tjm86 24 January, 2017, 06:26:01 AM
I was going to make some serious (well for me) fanboy comments on the fact that the one good thing the rubbish trilogy did was the names that really harked back to the serials that the films are sporned from and 'The Last Jedi' is utterly flat and uninspiring ... but then you lot came along and started making it clear this wasn't something to be taken seriously with your wringly stockings talk and I felt foolish for trying to be serious.

So glad I didn't attempt to make serious comment on this disappearing reveal, I'd have looked a right numpty.

Aye, but then again, where else can you have a discussion amongst fans about Star Wars that goes off on such a bizarre tangent and still have everyone talking to each other afterwards?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 24 January, 2017, 06:58:44 AM
I like it as a name, and it means we don't know who the Last Jedi is.  It could continue to be Luke (with Rey being something other than a Jedi), it could be Rey (with Luke either dying or turning to the Dark Side) or it could be something else entirely.

Yes. Technically Luke would be the last Jedi, at the moment anyway. Leia never received the training (as far as I'm aware. I guess she might have between films) and Rey isn't a Jedi yet. (We know just having force ability doesn't make one a jedi.) And Kylo is a knight of Ren* not a Jedi. Presumably all the other padawans at Skywalker college are dead.


Of course, once Rey is trained up that would make her the last Jedi, or the first of a new lot. (Or even something else as you say.)

Luke's status, and (initial) ownership of the title, is already established in the Force Awakens crawl:

the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.


: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Jim_Campbell 24 January, 2017, 07:04:58 AM
b) there can only ever be two sith at any one time.

I'm not sufficiently versed in SW continuity to know if that is cast in stone… I've come across some discussion of the 'Rule of Two' when I googled the relevant Yoda quotation and it doesn't seem like it is*. Whilst it's certainly a very literal interpretation of Yoda's words, you could also take his comment (as I did) to mean that the Sith only ever work in pairs… which has the benefit of making a lot more sense than the other interpretation…!

(And, let's face it, having a reputation for plain-speaking, Yoda does not.)


*From an admittedly fairly perfunctory skim. I have neither the time nor the energy to disappear down that rabbit hole!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Enigmatic Dr X 24 January, 2017, 07:17:35 AM
Of course, "Jedi" is plural too...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Jim_Campbell 24 January, 2017, 07:26:03 AM
Of course, "Jedi" is plural too...

The Jedward… two there always are.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 24 January, 2017, 08:08:29 AM
The Last Picture Show is a great movie too.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 24 January, 2017, 09:19:14 AM
"The Rule of Two", an awful EU extrapolation from Yoda's remarks on Maul in TPM, mainly exists to explain how Vader killing the Emperor destroys the Sith - itself a term for a particular cult which doesn't appear on screeen in the OT. So not only would I not worry about it, I'd also assume that after RotJ as darkside company policy it was viewed as a complete disaster, and those boys are nothing if not pragmatic.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: jacob g 24 January, 2017, 09:41:07 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but rule of two was mentioned in Star Wars Rebels also?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Pyroxian 24 January, 2017, 10:00:50 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but rule of two was mentioned in Star Wars Rebels also?

It could be interpreted that Sith aren't very social, and tend go around in pairs, so wherever there's one, there'll be another nearby. There could still be multiple Sith pairs around though.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 24 January, 2017, 11:52:43 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but rule of two was mentioned in Star Wars Rebels also?

Ah, there you have me at a disadvantage - I either don't remember, or haven't seen that one yet.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tiplodocus 24 January, 2017, 12:18:13 PM
I like it - and there's fun to be had swapping Last for Lost* 

And I assumed LAST JEDI meant there were thousands of them again but this going to be the story of the one who was always picked last for sports and team games, that sort of thing.





* Not so much Lest or List. More with Lust.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 24 January, 2017, 12:21:55 PM
And I assumed LAST JEDI meant there were thousands of them again but this going to be the story of the one who was always picked last for sports and team games, that sort of thing.

Ah, I see - I had it totally wrong so.  I had assumed it referred to a cordwainer who used the Force exclusively to shape shoes.  But obviously that's cobblers.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 24 January, 2017, 12:27:17 PM
Didn't the Emperor have Maul and Dooku as apprentices at the same time?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 24 January, 2017, 01:20:32 PM
Apocryphally he was grooming Dooku alright, but didn't take him as an apprentice until after Maul was (not) killed: same as he did with Anakin. Then there was that confusing business with WiFi Dyas. But it's a safe bet that if anyone was out there breaking 'rules', it was Palpatine.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 24 January, 2017, 01:33:25 PM
Perhaps the "two" could refer to the lord and their apprentice, but there are loads of acolytes or whatever?  In the same way there are loads of people in the Jedi temple training or teaching but aren't Jedi, like all the kids Annakin massacres - I don't imagine all of those were apprenticed.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 24 January, 2017, 01:41:32 PM
 Sure, I think that covers it. You could go so far as to desrcribe the Two as the annointed Dark Lords of the Sith, and the rest as acolytes/inquisitors/wannabes like Ventress, Krell etc.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: I, Cosh 24 January, 2017, 01:56:54 PM
I don't remember losing any sleep over it but I did spend five minutes trying to figure out if it was supposed to mean that evey time you killed one somebody else automatically became one. Like Slayers.

Then I decided it was a clever metaphor for the war on terror with there always being another dark threat lurking unseen, even when you think it's gone.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Frank 24 January, 2017, 02:14:26 PM
I had assumed it referred to a cordwainer who used the Force exclusively to shape shoes.  But obviously that's cobblers

You have no shame. Since the bar has been lowered - Last Jedi (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2hWgSH4v_s).


: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Zenith 666 24 January, 2017, 04:42:07 PM
Opening crawl.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: von Boom 24 January, 2017, 05:09:37 PM
Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi Will and Testament

https://brorlandi.github.io/StarWarsIntroCreator/#!/AKbGRAacU3DvdRY-jiEz (https://brorlandi.github.io/StarWarsIntroCreator/#!/AKbGRAacU3DvdRY-jiEz)

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 24 January, 2017, 05:47:36 PM
Thing is, Luke basically has to die to allow the story to continue. He's too powerful to keep around. Same as Dumbledore in Harry Potter.

I'd be happy with him sticking around in future films in ghost mentor form.

My theory re: the title is that at the beginning of the movie it refers to Luke, and by the end of the film it refers to Rey.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 24 January, 2017, 07:25:09 PM
The problem with killing off an OT cast member is they already played that card in The Force Awakens.  The same gag two films in a row would potentially sour the advance buzz on Episode 9, which already has to work with losing Han and Leia.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 24 January, 2017, 07:27:24 PM
My theory re: the title is that at the beginning of the movie it refers to Luke, and by the end of the film it refers to Rey.

Never tell me the odds.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: matty_ae 24 January, 2017, 07:38:20 PM
Axel Braun is already shooting 'The Lust Jedi'
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: NapalmKev 25 January, 2017, 10:13:56 AM
The 'rule of two' was established in the Darth Bane novel, Path of Destruction. Bane felt that the sith order had become too diluted and changed their philosophy: One sith to embody the power, the other to crave it*

Cheers

*Extended universe/legends
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 25 January, 2017, 10:24:25 PM
(https://s27.postimg.org/swrbjikrn/Mg6_Q7_Z5.png)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 26 January, 2017, 08:12:31 AM
It never seemed that Luke was anything like a proper Jedi. Obi Wan and Anakin spent years training and learning but Luke just spent half an hour faffing about in a swamp before running off, against Yoda's wishes, and getting his hand chopped off. This does not seem like a decent curriculum to me.

Star Wars IX - The Menace of the Awakening Phantom Sith Clones Rising to Strike Back at the Returning Last Rogue Jedi Hope...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: I, Cosh 26 January, 2017, 08:15:43 AM
It never seemed that Luke was anything like a proper Jedi. Obi Wan and Anakin spent years training and learning but Luke just spent half an hour faffing about in a swamp before running off, against Yoda's wishes, and getting his hand chopped off. This does not seem like a decent curriculum to me.
Jedi School of Hard Knocks, innit?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mardroid 26 January, 2017, 11:28:27 AM
It never seemed that Luke was anything like a proper Jedi. Obi Wan and Anakin spent years training and learning but Luke just spent half an hour faffing about in a swamp before running off, against Yoda's wishes, and getting his hand chopped off. This does not seem like a decent curriculum to me.

Yeah, I'm hoping we see something of how he has progressed in the new film. That's another reason I don't want him to be killed off too quickly, if at all.

That being said, he did beat Vader quite soundly in RotJ, and managed to hurt him in TESB, but I guess one might argue that Vader might have held back somewhat due to internal conflict the last time and the second time he wasn't trying to kill him.

It would be nice to see him do more in the latest film in terms of showing his force progression since those younger days though.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 26 January, 2017, 02:12:43 PM
Killing Luke is a stupid idea. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT5HI8TBIlM)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: DaveGYNWA 14 April, 2017, 05:26:18 PM
Trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB4I68XVPzQ
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 14 April, 2017, 05:40:20 PM
I am slightly concerned by how little I care after seeing that trailer.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 14 April, 2017, 06:07:11 PM
"I care".
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Colin YNWA 14 April, 2017, 06:19:44 PM
I am slightly concerned by how little I care after seeing that trailer.

Bloody hell twice in a week... what's wrong with me... anyway this so reflects my take.

That said early days.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 14 April, 2017, 06:23:39 PM
Does a nice line in not giving anything new away, a very good thing when there's still 8 months to go. Hope there's something surprising about those Walkers or they'll be regretting making Rogue One, but the new Resistance corvettes look great, and those speeders look like something I'll be getting for Christmas. No Snoke yet, and not as much scarring on Kylo Yiannopoulos as I was expecting, but optimism levels are at "cautiously".
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Smith 14 April, 2017, 06:30:13 PM
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-u0WMZtiqwJs/U90nf0bQRVI/AAAAAAAABK0/zTYquUQsA4A/s1600/tumblr_m5d2jthbTB1r8gsqgo2_250.gif)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: dweezil2 14 April, 2017, 06:43:20 PM
Too many Ewoks!!!!  :o
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Magnetica 14 April, 2017, 06:51:04 PM
Hmmm....I thought that was pretty underwhelming.

At this point I am looking forward much more to seeing Rogue One again (on DVD) and, what I am taking to be the biggest film of the year, Guardians of the Galaxy vol 2.

Still I assume the excitement will ramp up as December approaches.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 14 April, 2017, 07:40:07 PM
The general lack of new material is pretty calculated, I'd say. This is just an opening marker, reminding us that despite the last SW film being out 5 minutes ago, there is another one just around the corner.

 I like that it's ploughing its own Sequel Trilogy furrow in terms of closely referencing TFA's first teaser, with effectively the same opening shot, the Forcey VO, the lowflying craft kicking up a wake... It's important that this series develops its own SW identity, when TLJ isalready clearly mirroring TESB and is sandwiched so tightly between Rogue One and Han Solo. We'll see.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 14 April, 2017, 08:45:27 PM
Kill what you love. It's the only way forward.

Or Luke is the last Jedi ever and the philosophy of his Force teachings will change - as long as the franchise can survive and Disney allow that.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tony Angelino 14 April, 2017, 11:10:18 PM
I think in some other countries the Jedi part of the title has been translated in the plural.

I don't think they will kill Luke in this film although they might in the next part if they can keep an audience around to watch it. This film would need to be a massive step up from The Force Awakens but I don't think it will be.

I wonder if they will have the excellent martial artists back from "The Raid" films again to quite literally stand around and not do any martial arts of any kind. What on earth was that about? They could have got me for that scene. At least when Rogue One got Donnie Yen they let him have a martial arts scene.

Also why bother putting the shiny Captain Phasma in the trailer? Again she did literally nothing in the Force Awakens. Put her in the trailer, that'll really get people interested.

I'd rather see another film along the lines of Rogue One with new characters and the odd short Darth Vader style cameo.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 14 April, 2017, 11:22:32 PM
Haven't seen the trailer and will try to avoid it and its siblings so I can go into see the film itself "uncontaminated." The less I know about a film before I see it, the more I tend to enjoy it - and vice versa. It's difficult, though, in this day and age, and now begins for me a long, tempting and frustrating period of turning my face away.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 15 April, 2017, 12:21:43 AM
I think in some other countries the Jedi part of the title has been translated in the plural.

According to director/writer Rian Johnson it's singular.

https://twitter.com/GMA/status/853004555423973376

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mister Pops 15 April, 2017, 12:49:18 AM
I like it.

I know that every Christmas, when I visit my parents, me and my dad can watch some Star Wars. From now until the end of time.

Doesn't have to be any good. I just enjoy the new tradition.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 15 April, 2017, 08:28:59 AM

I wonder if they will have the excellent martial artists back from "The Raid" films again to quite literally stand around and not do any martial arts of any kind. What on earth was that about? They could have got me for that scene. At least when Rogue One got Donnie Yen they let him have a martial arts scene. 

I'd rather see another film along the lines of Rogue One with new characters and the odd short Darth Vader style cameo.

I'm guessing the raid guys just asked if they could be in star wars, so the director gave them a cameo, along with several other well known actors in the film.

I would much, much rather see the last jedi than another turgid star wars film along the lines of Rogue One.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tony Angelino 15 April, 2017, 11:31:30 AM
Maybe but people like Simon Pegg and Daniel Craig don't have anything extra to bring to the table. Again they could have put me in their roles.

When I heard they had brought in actors from The Raid I was expecting expertly choreographed Darth Maul style fight scenes.  The only thing I thought was strange was that it seemed to be very late on in the filming that they were announced.

Anyway I don't want to sound childish but Rogue One is better than The Force Awakens and that's the end of it. Argument finished.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: NapalmKev 15 April, 2017, 11:48:13 AM

Anyway I don't want to sound childish but Rogue One is better than The Force Awakens and that's the end of it. Argument finished.


I much prefer Rogue One to the Force Awakens. Considering it was the start of a new trilogy I expected more (which is my own fault, film companies are not responsible for my expectations). But on the whole I found FA very lacklustre.

Regarding Ep. 8 - I want to see a lot of Luke Skywalker as I feel he is the star of the whole series (not whiney, whingy Anakin) and if they kill him off I will be very disappointed!

According to my version of Star Wars Canon, cobbled together from the film and various EU novels I cherry-pick from, Luke is actually the chosen one as predicted by the Jedi/Sith and he's the hardest/most accomplished Force user ever to have existed.

I'm still at work so I won't grab me coat yet!

Cheers
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Enigmatic Dr X 15 April, 2017, 02:10:26 PM
34 years we've waited to hear Luke speak again.

"Breathe," he says. Don't worry, I wasn't holding my breath all that time!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 15 April, 2017, 02:24:03 PM
Anyway I don't want to sound childish but Rogue One is better than The Force Awakens and that's the end of it. Argument finished.

Hey now, people who think The Force Awakens is better than Rogue One are as entitled to defend their opinion just as much as Flat Earthers and Anti-Vaxxers are.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: dweezil2 15 April, 2017, 02:36:23 PM
Rogue One and The Force Awakens both have their flaws and merits.

For me, of the two films, The Force Awakens felt the more Star Warsy-maybe due to the somewhat recycled plot and the returning cast members I also felt it had a more emotional heft than Rogue One.

Still, it's all very objective obviously.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 15 April, 2017, 03:03:16 PM
That's the spirit - show him you lot aren't monsters.

I had the opposite problem: Force Awakens drew from such a limited pool of tropes that it felt to me more like a Star Wars knock-off than an actual Star Wars film.  Even fan movies spread their wings a bit.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 15 April, 2017, 08:47:48 PM
Just saw Rogue One for the third time with 5 friends this evening.  It gets worse on every viewing folks.....everyone in the room felt exactly the same.

Force awakens has buckets of problems, but 6 viewings in its still fun and entertaining. Rogue one won't be getting viewing number 4.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 17 April, 2017, 09:44:59 PM
Star Wars Ep. IV dailies were shown at SW Celebration, including an extended Death Star Conference scene. General Tagge refers to Vader as a Sith Lord.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja4WudpzBYw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xIBdWBou7w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I7jAwuocMw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkVUTEBMzUk




: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 17 April, 2017, 10:50:16 PM
I do like that conference scene as a single shot.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Keef Monkey 18 April, 2017, 05:05:45 PM

I wonder if they will have the excellent martial artists back from "The Raid" films again to quite literally stand around and not do any martial arts of any kind. What on earth was that about? They could have got me for that scene. At least when Rogue One got Donnie Yen they let him have a martial arts scene. 

I'd rather see another film along the lines of Rogue One with new characters and the odd short Darth Vader style cameo.

I'm guessing the raid guys just asked if they could be in star wars, so the director gave them a cameo, along with several other well known actors in the film.

I would much, much rather see the last jedi than another turgid star wars film along the lines of Rogue One.

I can't for the life of me remember if I read this somewhere or just heard it in conversation, but I recall rumours that entire sequence was originally supposed to play out very differently, but Harrison Ford was injured on-set so they had to drastically overhaul plans to keep on schedule, so the intended fight scenes were jettisoned.

It did seem a real waste of their talent, although I did get pretty excited just to see them standing there.

EDIT: Can't find any word of this online after a quick search, so may have been scuttlebutt. I did find this though, saying that they were originally contacted to help with fight choreography ideas, so them doing that and then being offered cameos seems more likely actually - https://coconuts.co/jakarta/lifestyle/raid-stars-reveal-how-they-got-their-roles-star-wars-episode-vii-force-awakens/ (https://coconuts.co/jakarta/lifestyle/raid-stars-reveal-how-they-got-their-roles-star-wars-episode-vii-force-awakens/)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 18 April, 2017, 08:00:56 PM
Just saw Rogue One for the third time with 5 friends this evening.  It gets worse on every viewing folks.....everyone in the room felt exactly the same.

Force awakens has buckets of problems, but 6 viewings in its still fun and entertaining. Rogue one won't be getting viewing number 4.

I'm very much of this opinion too. Force Awakens is seriously flawed movie, but it thunders along and has some genuinely charming moments and some really likable (albeit underwritten) new characters. I'd be tempted to say that the first hour is pretty much spot on (up until they get to the green planet/space bar, where it promptly starts to fall apart).

Rogue One is just dismal by comparison, imo. There's just a dull void where the characters and heart of the movie should be. While it's accomplished on a purely technical level, I just don't think it holds together as a movie in its own right. Just my observation, but even its fans only ever seem to praise the vfx, or the costumes, or the vehicles, or the overtly fan-servicey stuff like the Darth Vader cameo - you rarely hear anything positive about the actual characters or story.

people like Simon Pegg and Daniel Craig don't have anything extra to bring to the table. Again they could have put me in their roles

I think this is somewhat missing the point - they were clearly anonymous by design. Had Pegg and Craig been recognisable in their cameos, it would have been totally distracting.

According to my version of Star Wars Canon, cobbled together from the film and various EU novels I cherry-pick from, Luke is actually the chosen one as predicted by the Jedi/Sith and he's the hardest/most accomplished Force user ever to have existed.

Then the story's over, because now the good guys are totally overpowered and the bad guys are the underdogs. Doesn't work narratively, and is exactly why the majority of the old EU material doesn't work - there's no stakes in a story where the good guys have already won... And eventually, yes Luke has to die*.

*Though judging by the beard Hamill was sporting at the Celebration thing, I suspect he'll be popping his clogs in episode IX rather than VIII.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tony Angelino 18 April, 2017, 09:33:52 PM
people like Simon Pegg and Daniel Craig don't have anything extra to bring to the table. Again they could have put me in their roles

I think this is somewhat missing the point - they were clearly anonymous by design. Had Pegg and Craig been recognisable in their cameos, it would have been totally distracting.[/quote]

I didn't really have any point to make about Simon Pegg and Daniel Craig. I was making the point about The Raid actors being wasted in the roles they were given. Another post stated that it was no different to some of the other famous cameos but I don't think it was.

Anyway I don't even find Daniel Craig distracting when he's in a James Bond film. Bring back Roger.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Eric Plumrose 21 April, 2017, 08:32:30 PM
Force Awakens is seriously flawed movie, but it thunders along and has some genuinely charming moments and some really likable (albeit underwritten) new characters. I'd be tempted to say that the first hour is pretty much spot on

THE FORCE AWAKENS was an uninspired reboot. I was already grumbling at some hitherto unknown* version of the Empire or whatever the First Order is supposed to be even before I watched the blessed thing. Rey's too powerful. The fan service tedious. And anyone being able to use a lightsaber diminishes them as weapons.




* The passing interest I have in STAR WARS rarely extends beyond the movies. And I like it kept simple. The Empire was defeated in RETURN. Except, apparently it wasn't. And even that tablecloth's been pulled once already.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 21 April, 2017, 08:42:59 PM
And anyone being able to use a lightsaber diminishes them as weapons.

You mean like Han does in TESB?

I actually share almost all your objections, except that I think the movie gets past all those problems by being fun and having an engaging cast, and I find myself eager to see what they do next.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Suede1971 21 April, 2017, 08:46:44 PM
Force Awakens is seriously flawed movie, but it thunders along and has some genuinely charming moments and some really likable (albeit underwritten) new characters. I'd be tempted to say that the first hour is pretty much spot on

THE FORCE AWAKENS was an uninspired reboot. I was already grumbling at some hitherto unknown* version of the Empire or whatever the First Order is supposed to be even before I watched the blessed thing. Rey's too powerful. The fan service tedious. And anyone being able to use a lightsaber diminishes them as weapons.

That was my problem with it, at first there was the excitement of seeing a new star wars film in the cinema then you realize its too much like a new hope imo.

Hopefully the last jedi will try to be different, id rather not see the same film in a different package.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Eric Plumrose 21 April, 2017, 09:42:02 PM
You mean like Han does in TESB?

I actually share almost all your objections, except that I think the movie gets past all those problems by being fun and having an engaging cast, and I find myself eager to see what they do next.

Yup, just like Han does in EMPIRE. My preference would be his trying but inability to not only wield a lightsaber but even ignite the fucker being used as an opportunity to remind us of Han's resourcefulness.

Thing is, I'm not a STAR WARS fan. Which is probably why I'm so unforgiving of THE FORCE AWAKENS. I loved Daisy, John, Oscar, and Adam. The only reason I enjoyed the first half-hour/hour is entirely down to them (and, along with Hamill, they'll be the only reason I'll even entertain the idea of watching THE LAST JEDI). Unlike Ewan and Hayden, they could say that shit.

But I have no goodwill towards THE FORCE AWAKENS because I have no real affection for the franchise. Episode VII is crap. Not because it's a bad STAR WARS movie but because it's a bad movie.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 21 April, 2017, 10:19:29 PM
Force Awakens is seriously flawed movie, but it thunders along and has some genuinely charming moments and some really likable (albeit underwritten) new characters. I'd be tempted to say that the first hour is pretty much spot on

THE FORCE AWAKENS was an uninspired reboot. I was already grumbling at some hitherto unknown* version of the Empire or whatever the First Order is supposed to be even before I watched the blessed thing. Rey's too powerful. The fan service tedious. And anyone being able to use a lightsaber diminishes them as weapons.




* The passing interest I have in STAR WARS rarely extends beyond the movies. And I like it kept simple. The Empire was defeated in RETURN. Except, apparently it wasn't. And even that tablecloth's been pulled once already.

As I said - it's a seriously flawed movie. I largely agree with your criticisms. Rey is too powerful. Finn's ability to wield a lightsaber in the midst of battle is dumb (and on a related note, they also make lightsabers less and less cool every time they introduce weapons like the baton that can counter them). The characters are (mostly) quite weakly written and only buoyed by the ludicrously charismatic actors who play them. The recycling of ANH plot beats is distracting and unnecessary (I think even TFA's biggest defenders would admit that the Death Star 2.0 was poorly executed and entirely superfluous. The First Order is problematic, and they don't really make a lot of sense as an entity, but it's hard to see how they could feasibly even make an Episode VII without resurrecting the Empire in one form or another. Better the New Order than an endless procession of rogue factions of the old Empire and/or Emperor Palpatine clones that kept cropping up in the old EU stories.

It's a 2 (charitably a 3) star movie that I keep rewatching in the hopes that it will somehow turn into a 4 or 5.

Despite the flaws (and I still maintain that the movie really starts to fall apart during the second act before recovering slightly in the third), I'd still argue that as a film it's far superior to Rogue One. On your fan service point - it's totally a subjective thing, but I find the blatant fan service in R1 far more pernicious and distracting than anything in TFA. Ultimately, I liked all the characters in TFA so I felt invested in the plot to some degree. It had a trace of the old movie magic about it. In Rogue One I felt absolutely nothing.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 21 April, 2017, 10:22:11 PM
Rogue One is The Best New Star Wars Movie. (http://www.tor.com/2017/04/21/tiny-jyn-erso-heads-to-star-wars-celebration-hands-every-leia-a-copy-of-the-death-star-plans/)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 22 April, 2017, 06:29:57 AM
Finn's ability to wield a lightsabre... I think we saw different movies. In the one I watched, he turns it on twice, waves it about wildly hitting people and then gets comprehensively flattened both times.

Agreed, TFA is a mess of a movie, a fairly desperate hodge podge of reused ideas thrown together in commercial  effort to restart a series that had a natural conclusion, but it is enjoyable watching on several superficial levels, and far enough ahead of the previous two abominations to offer some hope that it can grow into its own thing.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 22 April, 2017, 08:18:16 AM
 Did I mention that TFA is miles better than Rogue One?

If not, it is.

Can't wait for the last Jedi. Like and Rey and Kylo. Cool.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 22 April, 2017, 08:35:14 AM
I know it's a dull truism, but Rogue One is what it is. It's explicitly and deliberately fan service, an opening salvo in a parallel series of fan-service films, aimed at marrying full-on 70s nostalgia to the more 'grown up' sensibilities some folk imagine they have, with a side line in bringing fans of the prequels and cartoons on side. It doesn't try to further the overall story (although it opens some interesting avenues), but it does create some new perspectives on ANH, has at least two objectively cool new characters and a visually striking last act.

It's fine, it does what it said it would do.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 22 April, 2017, 09:38:51 AM
If nothing else, I appreciate that Rogue One didn't come hand-in-hand with the mix of nostalgia and entitlement with which TFA was marketed to those vocal fans who insisted that George Lucas didn't understand Star Wars like its fans do, a strain of sentiment that has seen TFA elevated beyond its status as an objectively poor sci-fi romp with inconsistent tone, gaping plot/narrative deficiencies, but a good cast and top-notch production values.  See also: JJ Abrams' Star Trek reboot, a film which I enjoy and have seen multiple times, but which I know in my heart is Not Very Good and I would probably have hated if not for the long-standing affection I hold for the characters and franchise.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 22 April, 2017, 11:23:08 AM
Rogue One rests heavily on knowledge of A New Hope to make you care. It's packed with cameo appearances and references that you would only care about in continuity to the next film. The whole film plays out as Fan Service. My wife, not a big star wars fan and more a casual viewer, got absolutely nothing out of Rogue One but did enjoy the force awakens. I think with Rogue One you need to be in on the continuity to get something out of it, the characters are dry, hollow and it's really hard to care in isolation.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Jim_Campbell 22 April, 2017, 11:31:38 AM
I think with Rogue One you need to be in on the continuity to get something out of it, the characters are dry, hollow and it's really hard to care in isolation.

By contrast, my wife, who is not a Star Wars fan by any stretch of the imagination, required nothing more by way of explanation than: "You know how the first Star Wars movie revolved around the stolen plans for the Death Star? This film tells you how they got stolen."

She thought it was the best movie we saw last year. There were people audibly sobbing in the cinema by the film's climax. I really don't think you can assert that no one could make an emotional connection to these characters, nor that a detailed knowledge of continuity was required to appreciate it.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 22 April, 2017, 11:49:39 AM
To my mind, the main problem with R1 was that they tried to make a Star Wars film and not a film set in the Star Wars universe. That is to say, it's as if someone pulled a load of Star Wars toys out of a bag and tried to write a story around them rather than writing a good story and then fitting Star Wars equivalents into it.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 22 April, 2017, 11:56:26 AM
I think with Rogue One you need to be in on the continuity to get something out of it, the characters are dry, hollow and it's really hard to care in isolation.

By contrast, my wife, who is not a Star Wars fan by any stretch of the imagination, required nothing more by way of explanation than: "You know how the first Star Wars movie revolved around the stolen plans for the Death Star? This film tells you how they got stolen."

She thought it was the best movie we saw last year. There were people audibly sobbing in the cinema by the film's climax. I really don't think you can assert that no one could make an emotional connection to these characters, nor that a detailed knowledge of continuity was required to appreciate it.

Fair enough Jim! Can't argue with the fact that people certainly seemed to enjoy it.

I am very interested to know if those of you have seen it for a second time (or more) still feel that it holds up after a single viewing. For me, that's when it really shows its weaknesses.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: dweezil2 22 April, 2017, 12:29:18 PM
The flaws are certainly more apparent on subsequent viewings.

It's puzzling that Edward's appears to struggles with creating convincing characters that interact naturally and aren't mearly cyphers who spout exposition, especially as he showed promise at this with Monsters, although not with the turgid Godzilla, maybe because Monsters was his own creation?

Also, I wish the otherwise fine Felicity Jones didn't appear to be chewing on a wasp every time she was called upon to show emotion.

It's not a bad film and its somewhat tragically bleak tone is actually one of its strengths, but that script could of done with a few more drafts before it was shot, that's for sure.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 22 April, 2017, 12:34:36 PM
Finn's ability to wield a lightsaber in the midst of battle is dumb (and on a related note, they also make lightsabers less and less cool every time they introduce weapons like the baton that can counter them).

Even as a trained soldier Finn is a bit shit with a lightsaber and why should a weapon like the lightsaber have no match?

Fans criticse the new films for not 'evolving' but when they try to introduce new elements fans complain Star Wars is not like it used to be.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 22 April, 2017, 12:46:10 PM
The flaws are certainly more apparent on subsequent viewings.

It's puzzling that Edward's appears to struggles with creating convincing characters that interact naturally and aren't mearly cyphers who spout exposition

I found Cassian Andor, Chirrut Îmwe, K-2SO, Baze Malbus, Orson Krennic, Galen Erso no less convincing as characters than most of those that are simply drawn in the OT. Rogue One has story problems but most of its characters function perfectly fine for the type of men-on-a-mission film it is.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Eric Plumrose 22 April, 2017, 01:04:41 PM
The First Order is problematic, and they don't really make a lot of sense as an entity, but it's hard to see how they could feasibly even make an Episode VII without resurrecting the Empire in one form or another.

There's three decades between RETURN and FORCE. The Rebels won. The Republic was (presumably) restored. Have a corrupt Republic be the new big bad. The opening crawl might allude to this but it's when Tekka's village is wiped out not by Stormtroopers but Rebel Alliance-looking soldiers that shit gets real. Have some Leia/Théoden thing going on with Kylo Wormren.

Whatever, just bloody-well make some actual bastard effort to do something -- anything! -- that holds together and is legitimately its own thing rather than being so beholden to what's gone before. But, no. Here's another Death Star Starkiller Base.

On your fan service point - it's totally a subjective thing, but I find the blatant fan service in R1 far more pernicious and distracting than anything in TFA. Ultimately, I liked all the characters in TFA so I felt invested in the plot to some degree. It had a trace of the old movie magic about it. In Rogue One I felt absolutely nothing.

ROGUE ONE is Disney-sanctioned fan fiction. The more wanky moments no doubt passed by me because I'm not a fan.

That initial draw though of seeing older versions of Luke, Han, and Leia ended up being one of FORCE's major weaknesses. Here's Han! Completely the same but grey and doddery! Here's Leia! Interchangeable with every other Rebel General! They're there because.

Unlike Luke who will presumably serve some actual narrative purpose rather than being shoehorned in. But FORCE at times is so excruciatingly poor I've little-to-no desire to chance EPISODE VIII, despite the new cast. Which is a shame, because Daisy et al proved the STAR WARS movie franchise doesn't need the further adventures of Luke, Han, and Leia.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: IndigoPrime 22 April, 2017, 01:15:45 PM
My wife and I enjoyed Rogue One. It wasn't amazing, but then a rewatch of the original Star Wars trilogy a few years back didn't go down as well as we thought it would anyway – too much Smurfette being the main issue. Rogue One sadly suffered from that too (seriously – is the entire Star Wars universe bereft of women?), and it was odd that the character I liked most was a robot, but the thing held together reasonably well and had some nice set pieces.

TFA was fun enough, too. Like RO, it kind of went through the motions, but I certainly don't feel I wasted time watching it (unlike, say, Doctor Strange). I do wonder what people's expectations are these days. Star Wars was very much a product of its time and visually arresting in 1977. It has some superb production design, but middling writing and characters. In a sense, those new ones are more of the same.

That all said, Rogue One should really have dialled down on the CGI rent-a-dead-humans. They really were a truly abysmal idea that should never have left the storyboards (or at most initial demos).
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: dweezil2 22 April, 2017, 01:42:07 PM
The flaws are certainly more apparent on subsequent viewings.

It's puzzling that Edward's appears to struggles with creating convincing characters that interact naturally and aren't mearly cyphers who spout exposition

I found Cassian Andor, Chirrut Îmwe, K-2SO, Baze Malbus, Orson Krennic, Galen Erso no less convincing as characters than most of those that are simply drawn in the OT. Rogue One has story problems but most of its characters function perfectly fine for the type of men-on-a-mission film it is.

To give Rogue One its dues, the dialogue is Mamet-esque compared to the prequel's piffle! 
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 22 April, 2017, 02:17:57 PM
The flaws are certainly more apparent on subsequent viewings.

It's puzzling that Edward's appears to struggles with creating convincing characters that interact naturally and aren't mearly cyphers who spout exposition

I found Cassian Andor, Chirrut Îmwe, K-2SO, Baze Malbus, Orson Krennic, Galen Erso no less convincing as characters than most of those that are simply drawn in the OT. Rogue One has story problems but most of its characters function perfectly fine for the type of men-on-a-mission film it is.

To give Rogue One its dues, the dialogue is Mamet-esque compared to the prequel's piffle!

Like them or not, I think George Lucas tried to be original and inventive with the prequels. For all their huge failings they did consistently bring something new to the table. They aren't the incestuous rehash of existing material that Rogue One represents.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 22 April, 2017, 02:31:05 PM
Like them or not, I think George Lucas tried to be original and inventive with the prequels. For all their huge failings they did consistently bring something new to the table. They aren't the incestuous rehash of existing material that Rogue One represents.

Aesthetically, yes, but in much of everything else it was a stilted exercise in re-ordering tropes from the OT without much flair.

Rogue One does bring other elements to the world of Star Wars that didn't exist in the films beforehand – expanding the notion of the Force's place in the galaxy; grounding the action somewhat, and leading the film with characters not previously heard of.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mardroid 22 April, 2017, 02:32:32 PM
Finn's ability to wield a lightsabre... I think we saw different movies. In the one I watched, he turns it on twice, waves it about wildly hitting people and then gets comprehensively flattened both times.

I thought he actually held up pretty well against Kylo Ren. Okay, Ren soundly beat him, (which was to be expected) but he held his own longer than I'd have expected.

I didn't really find that unbelievable though, when you consider that Stormtrooper with the baton thing. The New Order are aware that Jedi were instrumental in defeating their predecessor, so during their rise during the new Republic era (if you can call it an 'era') they make sure they give certain trooper's training in hand to hand combat with those special weapons, possibly even tech they dug up from the Prequel time period.  (Considering those droids with those electrostaff weapons.)

Jedi might be a minority now, (well, basically just Luke after the destruction of his academy)  but they don't want to take any chances, and I'd imagine those gizmos are pretty handy against other non-ranged weapons. Staves and axe type things seem to be in use within the Star Wars universe, as are blades of different kinds.I guess Finn had a bit of that training too.

Anyhow: Rogue One and The Force Awakens. I like them both. I feel the latter was constructed worse, being an almost beat-for-beat retelling of Star Wars (okay, Finn the defecting stormtrooper was a rather different element) and relying on fate/coincidence a bit too much ("Lets escape on that saucer shaped ship. Oh look at who just happens to be parked up in orbit...")but it was fun and had a good heart.

Rogue One however managed to pull off a much more original story, even despite being set between other films. It was bleak, sure, but it also had heart. The better of the two films, I think, from a structure/story point of view, but The Force Awakens, was FUN (apologies for repeating myself)!

I'm very much looking forward to Episode VIII. I'm particularly curios about Luke's line, right at the end of the trailer... (I won't spoil it for those who intentionally avoided the trailer.)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 22 April, 2017, 05:02:31 PM
Like them or not, I think George Lucas tried to be original and inventive with the prequels. For all their huge failings they did consistently bring something new to the table. They aren't the incestuous rehash of existing material that Rogue One represents.

Aesthetically, yes, but in much of everything else it was a stilted exercise in re-ordering tropes from the OT without much flair.

Rogue One does bring other elements to the world of Star Wars that didn't exist in the films beforehand – expanding the notion of the Force's place in the galaxy; grounding the action somewhat, and leading the film with characters not previously heard of.

I'm not sure that is fair, there is a wealth of development in the prequel trilogy from the operation of the Republic, the form of the jedi order, the development of the sith, the rise of Palpatine and even the nature of the force itself. There was more than enough material in the prequel films to fire up another 18 years of expanded universe.

Apart from the introduction of opposing factions within the rebellion, the one original and worthwhile development in Rogue One was the explanation of the death stars weakness. Other than that we got yet more new trooper designs and a couple of mostly forgettable environments, along with far too many distracting fan-pleasing cameos by the likes of Dr Evazan, ponda baba, dejarik, probe droids, chopper, hera  syndulla, the ghost, threepio , r2, the new hope pilots etc.

And then there's bor gullet......geez.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 22 April, 2017, 05:13:34 PM
Damn, you fixed "probe druids" before I could post this:

(https://camo.githubusercontent.com/664fb8db64a7f7a8fe56467ed0640dd4238240d8/687474703a2f2f73706164676f732e6769746875622e696f2f676574616669782f676574616669782e6a7067)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 22 April, 2017, 05:30:24 PM
Ha ha.....close call!  :D
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 22 April, 2017, 08:04:44 PM
I'm not sure that is fair, there is a wealth of development in the prequel trilogy from the operation of the Republic, the form of the jedi order, the development of the sith, the rise of Palpatine and even the nature of the force itself. There was more than enough material in the prequel films to fire up another 18 years of expanded universe.

Apart from seeing the Senate, the Republic and Palpatine's pantomime chicanery – rather than it being talked about it in the OT – did the Sith 'develop' in the Prequels? The Master/Apprentice situation was there in the OT.

There seemed little new about the Force in the Prequels – it was still just Jedi v Dark Side, circular Yoda musings and Ghost Jedi. Palpatine's 'use the Force to conquer death' was only a ruse and Midichlorians/spontaneous pregnancies are the things everyone wants to forget. The nature of the Force is explained by Obi-Wan in one paragraph in A New Hope and it still says more about the Force than all the Prequels did.

Other than that we got yet more new trooper designs and a couple of mostly forgettable environments, along with far too many distracting fan-pleasing cameos...

The Prequels did a lot of that too, for 3 films.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 22 April, 2017, 08:21:16 PM
I'm bowing out of the Rogue One debate at this point as I'm destined to go forever around in circles with my arguments. I'm genuinely surprised by the Rogue One love, of all Star Wars films I'm stunned it's not getting the hardest ride, and yet it seems popular. Fair enough, I'm only pleased for star wars to be a continuing success so I'm happy that it has an audience.

Star Wars is a huge part of my life, has been for 40 years, so these films have always meant a lot to me. With Rogue One I have had my first real damp squib Star wars experience. I just find it incredibly generic, predictable and,  for at least the first hour, a complete mess. I just can't take much from the experience.  I think the prequels have lots of ideas in them, and though they aren't great, I find them all completely superior in imagination and vision to Rogue One.

I really can't understand anyone comparing Rogue One to the original trilogy......just can't. Not even close.

Saw this review today, and I can find a lot of common ground with this reviewer:

https://youtu.be/WODXBROSh8c

Anyway, can't wait for episode 8. Love Rey and Kylo and just thrilled to have a new film of Luke Skywalker.

I'll reserve judgement on the han solo movie as I can't picture han solo without Harrison (my all time favourite actor), the new Indiana Jones movie is my number one anticipated film......love Indy.

Cheers!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 22 April, 2017, 08:39:44 PM
Oh, and for the Force Awakens....I can't hate on anything that gave me such a cool Han Solo figure! 😊

(http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l150/Simonipenter/20170422_203525.jpg) (http://s95.photobucket.com/user/Simonipenter/media/20170422_203525.jpg.html)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 22 April, 2017, 09:33:24 PM
New jacket.

Those are amazing figures.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 22 April, 2017, 10:31:13 PM
Thanks Tordel.....hot toys are my current ruin.

Sold all of my modern 3.75" (never sell the vintage) to fund them. Damn they are an expensive hobby! Still, Chewie is on the way to keep Han company 😊 (can't have Han without Chewie.....though Chewie is proving to be less faithful post Han's death) .  Then I think I need to have a break so that I can still afford to feed the kids.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 22 April, 2017, 10:55:46 PM
I really can't understand anyone comparing Rogue One to the original trilogy......just can't. Not even close.

I think one of the good things about Rogue One is that it doesn't need to be compared to the OT – it's an addendum to them. Star Wars with a different tone and texture rather than the next episode cycle.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Goaty 24 May, 2017, 09:23:54 PM
Beautiful photographs by Annie Leibovitz

(http://media.vanityfair.com/photos/5924578a34765321e4a464ac/master/w_1200,h_900,c_limit/star-wars-portfolio-06-2017-ss01.jpg)
(http://media.vanityfair.com/photos/5924578952a3f44dc6f3a8a5/master/w_1200,h_900,c_limit/star-wars-portfolio-06-2017-ss02.jpg)
(http://media.vanityfair.com/photos/592457899658080c3abf7119/master/w_1200,h_900,c_limit/star-wars-portfolio-06-2017-ss03.jpg)
(http://media.vanityfair.com/photos/5924578952a3f44dc6f3a8a7/master/w_1200,h_900,c_limit/star-wars-portfolio-06-2017-ss04.jpg)
(http://media.vanityfair.com/photos/5924578a9658080c3abf711b/master/w_1200,h_900,c_limit/star-wars-portfolio-06-2017-ss05.jpg)
(http://media.vanityfair.com/photos/592457989658080c3abf711d/master/w_1200,h_900,c_limit/star-wars-portfolio-06-2017-ss07.jpg)
(http://media.vanityfair.com/photos/59245798b2306f2287537fcf/master/w_1200,h_900,c_limit/star-wars-portfolio-06-2017-ss08.jpg)
(http://media.vanityfair.com/photos/59245798b2306f2287537fd1/master/w_1200,h_900,c_limit/star-wars-portfolio-06-2017-ss09.jpg)
(http://media.vanityfair.com/photos/5924579852a3f44dc6f3a8a9/master/w_1200,h_900,c_limit/star-wars-portfolio-06-2017-ss10.jpg)
(http://media.vanityfair.com/photos/592457a5dffe772993b30b3c/master/w_1200,h_900,c_limit/star-wars-portfolio-06-2017-ss11.jpg)
(http://media.vanityfair.com/photos/592457a5dffe772993b30b3d/master/w_1200,h_900,c_limit/star-wars-portfolio-06-2017-ss12.jpg)
(http://media.vanityfair.com/photos/592457a53695284c0188d4c5/master/w_1200,h_900,c_limit/star-wars-portfolio-06-2017-ss13.jpg)
(http://media.vanityfair.com/photos/592457a5dffe772993b30b3f/master/w_1200,h_900,c_limit/star-wars-portfolio-06-2017-ss14.jpg)


: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: DrRocka 24 May, 2017, 09:28:05 PM
That Luke and Leia one is breathtaking.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 24 May, 2017, 09:58:07 PM
That Luke and Leia one is breathtaking.

It is. And I like the Billie Lord one too, although doubt it has much to do with the film. Laura Dern looks great.

 Looks like they really going with Planet of The Opera  look for the Dubrovnik location - I like it no more than I did when I thought it was a mistaken rumour. Hopefully it pulls together into something different.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 24 May, 2017, 10:04:19 PM
I'm very excited for this one. I'm hoping this is the film that tries something new and takes a few more risks. And the proper return of luke skywalker is what I have been excited about since it was revealed that they were making episode vii.

And, it'll help me forget about Rogue One 😊
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 24 May, 2017, 10:16:28 PM
Looks like they really going with Planet of The Opera  look for the Dubrovnik location - I like it no more than I did when I thought it was a mistaken rumour. Hopefully it pulls together into something different.

It might show us the rich gangster/elite of SW in the way the Prequels didn't. Not seeing Luke & Leia bow-out together in 9 will be a regret.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 24 May, 2017, 10:25:16 PM
Not seeing Luke & Leia bow-out together in 9 will be a regret.

A total pisser in so many ways.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JamesC 25 May, 2017, 09:02:57 AM
Nice pics. I kind of wish Luke was sporting the dark cloak. The black suit and green saber look in ROTJ is far preferable to the brown bath-robe look in my opinion.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: CalHab 25 May, 2017, 01:15:53 PM
Nice pics. I kind of wish Luke was sporting the dark cloak. The black suit and green saber look in ROTJ is far preferable to the brown bath-robe look in my opinion.
(http://www.vavawoom.com/malin/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2014/06/movies_big_lebowski_the_dude_jeff_bridges_movie_desktop_1280x1024_wallpaper-43039.jpg)
Yeah, well, that's just like your opinion, man.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JamesC 25 May, 2017, 02:12:35 PM
Sorry Dude.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Colin YNWA 25 May, 2017, 09:49:24 PM
That posh Star Wars photo is wonderful. More of that please, feels so in place yet so fresh.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 25 May, 2017, 10:38:17 PM
That posh Star Wars photo is wonderful. More of that please, feels so in place yet so fresh.

You know, you're absolutely right.  I think what's bothered me about it is how different it is to the usual SW imagery (even to the opera scene in RotS) - but that's actually good.  Heaven knows there wasn't anything visually unfamiliar in TFA, unless you count snow and trees together.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 26 May, 2017, 12:31:56 PM
autiful photographs by Annie Leibovitz

(http://media.vanityfair.com/photos/592457a5dffe772993b30b3f/master/w_1200,h_900,c_limit/star-wars-portfolio-06-2017-ss14.jpg)

That picture reminds me of something...

(https://68.media.tumblr.com/683c81d47de0fda0d2145c5fd9edce86/tumblr_inline_oevp88C4Jb1ttr71g_1280.png)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 15 July, 2017, 10:28:47 PM
A dandy little figurine sized alien croupier pushing chips up and down gambling tables with a little silver shovel may be the thing that sells me on TLJ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye6GCY_vqYk)

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/256e73a6d9bd2e7fc2b854e6a4c89f5dbc0991f960ed97a5c37cf83d47b61c30.png)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Goaty 15 July, 2017, 10:54:54 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/Kf2Kijfl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/EjzEbp9l.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/jMem19ml.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/AWKyyvdl.jpg)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 15 July, 2017, 11:17:20 PM
A dandy little figurine sized alien croupier pushing chips up and down gambling tables with a little silver shovel may be the thing that sells me on TLJ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye6GCY_vqYk)

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/256e73a6d9bd2e7fc2b854e6a4c89f5dbc0991f960ed97a5c37cf83d47b61c30.png)

Wowsers! Is that a Zilkin (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Zilkin), like the loveable Col Gascon from Clone Wars?

(https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/f/ff/Gascon_main_image.png/revision/latest?cb=20131021223523)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 15 July, 2017, 11:24:26 PM
Double post: lots of fresh visuals to like there, some genuinely great practical creatures, and I like the expansion of the red-swatch motif from the first one to cover almost everything. And it looks like Maz is back, great news!

Looks like the sentient puffin guys and Falkor horses  are going to make or break this one, but I'm glad they at least took that chance.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Pete Wells 15 July, 2017, 11:57:04 PM
I loved everything about that Sizzle reel 'cept one thing...

Ryan Johnson's knitted scorpion jumper was horrific! :p
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 17 July, 2017, 03:11:05 AM
Ryan Johnson's knitted scorpion jumper was horrific! :p

That's a lobster cardigan, Mr Wells, and yes, it is horrific.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DE2kaa0UIAE4qk6.jpg)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 17 July, 2017, 03:38:25 AM
Lobster Johnson?

Twitter indicates he's a fan of the movie-of-the-same-name, FWIW.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Pete Wells 17 July, 2017, 07:21:33 AM
Ryan Johnson's knitted scorpion jumper was horrific! :p

That's a lobster cardigan, Mr Wells, and yes, it is horrific.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DE2kaa0UIAE4qk6.jpg)

So it is! In my defence, I recoiled in horror when I saw it first time.

A bit insensitive wearing that with Ackbar wandering about...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 27 July, 2017, 06:29:54 PM
Some spoilery TLJ press photos (https://starwarstheory.com/2017/07/27/leaked-tlj-movie-images/).
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 27 July, 2017, 07:11:34 PM
Ryan Johnson's knitted scorpion jumper was horrific! :p

That's a lobster cardigan, Mr Wells, and yes, it is horrific.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DE2kaa0UIAE4qk6.jpg)

So it is! In my defence, I recoiled in horror when I saw it first time.

A bit insensitive wearing that with Ackbar wandering about...

I don't see why - it'd be like having a picture of a gorilla on a jumper, while socialising with humans.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 27 July, 2017, 07:41:41 PM
Some spoilery TLJ press photos (https://starwarstheory.com/2017/07/27/leaked-tlj-movie-images/).

Nice redesign for Uncle Travelling Luke, and that's the first time I've liked anything about Snoke - pretty disturbing stuff in the flesh! Cropping out the banjaxed bits of his face, is there a wee touch of Kenobiabout yer man there? 

Praetorian Guard is rather by-the-numbers, and it seems a pity that they didn't do more with Finn and Ren's injuries. But yeah, some decent costuming there.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Colin YNWA 27 July, 2017, 09:52:16 PM
Love the Rey costume, fantastic. Less keen on Mr Grumpy Chops Teen Gaiman's look but hey lets see how it all looks in the actual film.

Now the question is do I exit from spoilers now I did that last time and I was all grumpy chuff when TFA came out so maybe I should just spoil myself silly!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 27 July, 2017, 10:50:58 PM
that's the first time I've liked anything about Snoke - pretty disturbing stuff in the flesh! Cropping out the banjaxed bits of his face, is there a wee touch of Kenobiabout yer man there?
 

I'm seeing more of a Quentin Crisp (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/01/23/article-1126738-03261D50000005DC-286_468x641.jpg) or Brian Sewell (http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03446/brian_3446041k.jpg).

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 09 August, 2017, 07:41:07 PM


Punch it!

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1178c8e9edc4947473646645129e6909628cc09219636d064afcb9ca00909908.jpg)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 09 August, 2017, 08:06:26 PM
Wow, porgs have fur! A mammal in a flightless bird niche - clever stuff, and a design that should make millions of cutey-dollars (my daughter has already requested one for Christmas). Hope they work on screen, 'cos they aren't going to please the grimdarkers one bit. They were counting on TLJ being the darkest one yet, like they always, inexplicably, do.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JLC 09 August, 2017, 08:09:01 PM
Some spoilery TLJ press photos (https://starwarstheory.com/2017/07/27/leaked-tlj-movie-images/).
Gone!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 09 August, 2017, 08:18:43 PM
Any linen for the wash, Master Skywalker?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGzg73iUIAARkKm.jpg)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 09 August, 2017, 08:36:36 PM
If nothing else, I see a centrist alliance forming between the "Ewoks are shit" and "it's automatically good Star Wars if George Lucas had nothing to do with it" brigades, but Sweet Christmas, this isn't going to help the accusations that the sequel trilogy has bugger all else beyond stripmining the OT for recogniseable elements - be they good or bad - and then polishing the living bejesus out of them with modern production values.  We can but hope they also go for the four-act screenplay structure that's made most modern blockbusters a parade of shitty pacing, too.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 09 August, 2017, 08:44:48 PM
I'm loving the gelfling vibe off those Mon Atees, but dear grud they're going to have Oirish accents, aren't they?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 09 August, 2017, 08:49:14 PM
If it has Irish Ewoks I will be first in line for this motherfucker.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 09 August, 2017, 08:50:25 PM
We can but hope they also go for the four-act screenplay structure that's made most modern blockbusters a parade of shitty pacing, too.

They've moved up a notch from the padding of a shitty 3 act structure?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: DaveGYNWA 09 August, 2017, 10:17:44 PM
I'm loving the gelfling vibe off those Mon Atees, but dear grud they're going to have Oirish accents, aren't they?

To be sure, they will. The feckers.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 10 August, 2017, 12:31:31 AM
Would it be too much to ask that the caretakers could sound like Miracle Max and Valerie instead?  If nothing else we could save a lot of time by re-purposing the 'Watto is anti-semitic' posts that take up 5% of the total storage capacity of the Wayback Machine.

I do love the Podge & Rodge designs, but I'd take 'to blaaave' over 'be be sure' any day.  I could only accept Oirish accented aliens if they were voiced by the Rubberbandits.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mardroid 11 August, 2017, 12:45:59 AM
(http://go.redirectingat.com/?id=83015X1536422&site=denofgeek.com&xs=1&isjs=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn-static.denofgeek.com%2Fsites%2Fdenofgeek%2Ffiles%2F2017%2F08%2Fstar_wars_last_jedi_11.jpg&xguid=eac757b68de9b2ba38b31255afcf6b39&xuuid=ebb61eaa2dbdbc3a6d9d0948df745a3f&xsessid=1bbc3b2ee26abcb9726896d9b0979c83&xcreo=0&xed=0&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denofgeek.com%2Fuk%2Fmovies%2Fstar-wars%2F48747%2Fstar-wars-the-last-jedi-posters-and-images%238&pref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denofgeek.com%2Fuk&xtz=-60)

A new kind of Interceptor? It's not the best image, but quite a different designed cockpit, from what I can see. I wonder if this is Kylo Ren's personal fighter.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JLC 14 August, 2017, 08:28:57 AM
Wow, porgs have fur! A mammal in a flightless bird niche - clever stuff, and a design that should make millions of cutey-dollars (my daughter has already requested one for Christmas). Hope they work on screen, 'cos they aren't going to please the grimdarkers one bit. They were counting on TLJ being the darkest one yet, like they always, inexplicably, do.
Yep, dark = adult for a lot of people. Yes the prequels were awful but Star Wars is aimed at a young audience despite middle aged men still enjoying it & wanting it to be made just for them!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: dweezil2 14 August, 2017, 10:16:57 AM
Wow, porgs have fur! A mammal in a flightless bird niche - clever stuff, and a design that should make millions of cutey-dollars (my daughter has already requested one for Christmas). Hope they work on screen, 'cos they aren't going to please the grimdarkers one bit. They were counting on TLJ being the darkest one yet, like they always, inexplicably, do.
Yep, dark = adult for a lot of people. Yes the prequels were awful but Star Wars is aimed at a young audience despite middle aged men still enjoying it & wanting it to be made just for them!

I don't know, I found the Ewoks pretty irritating back in '83 when I was 12.
Films aimed at kids don't necessarily have to be childish.
Of course, after A New Hope, Lucas always had one eye on the toy market, so cutesy aliens is de rigueur for any Star Wars based movie at this point.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JLC 15 August, 2017, 10:19:28 PM
Wow, porgs have fur! A mammal in a flightless bird niche - clever stuff, and a design that should make millions of cutey-dollars (my daughter has already requested one for Christmas). Hope they work on screen, 'cos they aren't going to please the grimdarkers one bit. They were counting on TLJ being the darkest one yet, like they always, inexplicably, do.
Yep, dark = adult for a lot of people. Yes the prequels were awful but Star Wars is aimed at a young audience despite middle aged men still enjoying it & wanting it to be made just for them!

I don't know, I found the Ewoks pretty irritating back in '83 when I was 12.

Some did I guess. I didn't. I still don't.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 16 August, 2017, 01:07:45 AM
I don't know, I found the Ewoks pretty irritating back in '83 when I was 12.
Films aimed at kids don't necessarily have to be childish.
Of course, after A New Hope, Lucas always had one eye on the toy market, so cutesy aliens is de rigueur for any Star Wars based movie at this point.
After A New Hope?  I wouldn't say Ugnauts were cutesy aliens!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 31 August, 2017, 08:37:06 PM
Last Jedi will have an evil double of BB-8 - yes, like KITT and KARR - called BB-9.  They're really trying hard with this one, you guys.  Really rolling the boat out with new ideas.

edit: just realised they aren't calling evil BB-8 BB-H8.  This movie is now officially bullshit.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 31 August, 2017, 08:54:58 PM


It's BB-9EIN.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 31 August, 2017, 08:59:55 PM
Com-bot 18
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Frank 31 August, 2017, 09:14:40 PM

(http://images1.fanpop.com/images/photos/1500000/Bender-and-Evil-Bender-futurama-1594483-500-329.jpg)


: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: von Boom 31 August, 2017, 09:30:18 PM
It's been done.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/FWoG9tKf1lA/hqdefault.jpg)

E-Chuta!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: lincnashOZ 01 September, 2017, 01:25:54 AM

I don't know, I found the Ewoks pretty irritating back in '83 when I was 12.
Films aimed at kids don't necessarily have to be childish.

I cheered (at 13), as the Ewok's were getting wasted by the Empire troops.
My friends punched me and the whole Cinema boo'ed me.
Childhood scars  ;).

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 07 September, 2017, 01:43:29 AM


And The Last Jedi is...obvious.


"It’s in the opening crawl of “The Force Awakens.” Luke Skywalker, right now, is the last Jedi. There’s always wiggle room in these movies — everything is from a certain point of view — but coming into our story, he is the actual last of the Jedi. And he’s removed himself and is alone on this island, for reasons unknown."


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/06/movies/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-rian-johnson.html
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 07 September, 2017, 02:04:19 AM
Doesn't that spoiler the end of Rebels a bit?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Goaty 10 October, 2017, 07:16:52 AM
New trailer and looks awesome!

https://youtu.be/Q0CbN8sfihY (https://youtu.be/Q0CbN8sfihY)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 10 October, 2017, 07:30:02 AM
Very interesting what they leave out! No casino planet, no horse-things, none of the new characters (that I noticed). Really just the crystal foxes and the porg for novelty... I think that speaks well of their confidence in our interest in their characters and their relationships, rather than just spectacle. Would have been nice if Finn had something to say, though.

Yes, I still hate those walkers, but warming to Ren's emo-interceptor. Most intriguing bit: are those kyber crystals in caverns under Ach-Too?

Optimism levels: high.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Enigmatic Dr X 10 October, 2017, 07:39:41 AM
Meh. I'll still go and see it, but any film that has call-backs to the prequel trilogy (overhead shot of Ren with the platoon of troopers) makes me sad.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 10 October, 2017, 08:08:22 AM
Looks to me like it's going for the dark middle part of a trilogy.
I fully expect it to end on a massive downer.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tiplodocus 10 October, 2017, 08:29:23 AM
Very pretty to look at.  I guess they don't want our astonishment at the visuals being spoiled by being astonished at key plot points being revealed during the actual movie. So it was nice of them to put them in the trailer*.




* I'm hoping it's a Star Trek Into Darkness trailer where they actually hid quite a lot of the plot even though it looked like they hadn't.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 10 October, 2017, 09:06:27 AM
Meh. I'll still go and see it, but any film that has call-backs to the prequel trilogy (overhead shot of Ren with the platoon of troopers) makes me sad.

This seems rather self-defeating: you don't have to like the prequels, but consciously avoiding any reference to them seems painfully contrived. It's fairly clear that Ren riffs off whiny-Anakin in the first place, rather than OT-Vader as it initially appeared, so making some visual references is just developing that theme, hopefully for the purposes of misdirection.  One might equally note the similarity of Ren's fighter to Maul's underused TPM ship, from the rear at least.

I tend to share Tips' hopes/fears regarding plot spoilers, but mapping the already-established elements onto the slavish mirroring of Empire Strikes Back already seemed to spell the whole thing out.  The most the trailer adds to Spoilerfest '17 is to give a bit of shape to the timeline, measurable with reference to Ren's healing process (love the cyber-bandage thing).
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 10 October, 2017, 09:21:25 AM
Looks great - I'm excited at least!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 10 October, 2017, 12:44:39 PM
I assume there are no new characters in the trailer because of DisneyWars' already-noted reliance on the familiar.
It's pretty clear from the goings-on behind the scenes that, like Marvel movies and comics, these movies are the product of committee meetings more than they are individual creators, but only a fool would argue that At-Ats and Tie Fighters aren't enough for most fortysomethings to already have their tickets booked.
Still, it looks nice.  Like a really fancy fan movie.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 10 October, 2017, 12:59:42 PM
Indeed. There were new characters in the previous trailer, mind, and heavily featured in the Vanity Fair shoot

Slightly offsetting my dislike of the new walkers is the clever inclusion of old-style walkers in the shot. If you absolutely have to have yet more walkers, may as well indicate the scale.

I hope the 'Mary Sue! Mary Sue!' crowd are paying close attention to Snoke and Luke's dialogue snippets here.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: shaolin_monkey 10 October, 2017, 01:58:48 PM
I assume there are no new characters in the trailer because of DisneyWars' already-noted reliance on the familiar.

What about that hairy rat bird thing in the MF cockpit?  Is that not a new character of some kind?

What about this dude?  Is he new?

(http://media.vanityfair.com/photos/592457a5dffe772993b30b3d/master/w_1200,h_900,c_limit/star-wars-portfolio-06-2017-ss12.jpg)

PS - Carrie Fisher.   :'(
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 10 October, 2017, 02:17:39 PM
The porg (for that is its registered trademark) from the Fakcon's cockpit was in the behind-the-scenes video, and Benico's character hasn't appeared in anything other than that Vanity Fair shot.

I just find it interesting that the trailer emphasises Rey and Finn, over even Luke and Leia, rather than showcasing new or unseen elements. It suggests a degree of confidence that the audience is already  engaged in their story - which I definitely am.

Of course going by Rogue One it's quite possible that none of this footage is in the  movie...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Link Prime 10 October, 2017, 02:45:27 PM

What about this dude?  Is he new?


Darth Heino
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 10 October, 2017, 04:44:57 PM
any film that has call-backs to the prequel trilogy (overhead shot of Ren with the platoon of troopers) makes me sad.

But it looks much nicer this time. From the textures in that trailer it's like the best merge of practical and CGI; like they looked at the concept art and said, exactly that but make it move...and don't lose any of the detail.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 10 October, 2017, 05:21:50 PM
Speculation - Snoke is talking about/to Rey in the voiceover dialogue, and not Ren as the trailer seems to imply.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Enigmatic Dr X 10 October, 2017, 06:02:55 PM
Meh. I'll still go and see it, but any film that has call-backs to the prequel trilogy (overhead shot of Ren with the platoon of troopers) makes me sad.

This seems rather self-defeating: you don't have to like the prequels, but consciously avoiding any reference to them seems painfully contrived. It's fairly clear that Ren riffs off whiny-Anakin in the first place, rather than OT-Vader as it initially appeared, so making some visual references is just developing that theme, hopefully for the purposes of misdirection.  One might equally note the similarity of Ren's fighter to Maul's underused TPM ship, from the rear at least.

I tend to share Tips' hopes/fears regarding plot spoilers, but mapping the already-established elements onto the slavish mirroring of Empire Strikes Back already seemed to spell the whole thing out.  The most the trailer adds to Spoilerfest '17 is to give a bit of shape to the timeline, measurable with reference to Ren's healing process (love the cyber-bandage thing).


A pox on your internet rationality. Shame on you and yours. And on a Star Wars thread no less.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Goaty 10 October, 2017, 06:23:24 PM
It lovely to see AT-ATs back as you can see them next to AT-M6s

(http://media.gizmodo.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Screenshot_64.jpg)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 10 October, 2017, 07:12:44 PM
After watching this thing 20+ times today, I'm pretty sure it's my favourite SW trailer since the TPM teaser.

Just love the wonderfully simple music, the strong colour themes, the toying with expectations, what Luke has become, the apparent understanding that the strength of TFA was its characters, the sense that it's moving the story forward at long last.

I have a good feeling about this.

Which is never a good thing.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Jim_Campbell 10 October, 2017, 07:21:42 PM
Which is never a good thing.

I won't tell you the odds…
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 10 October, 2017, 08:32:56 PM
Which is never a good thing.

I won't tell you the odds…

Never do that.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Colin YNWA 10 October, 2017, 08:46:34 PM
So much to love there. I adore (as did my daughter) the magic fox thingies... mind it would be even better if it was the Rabbit aliens from the old Marvel comics!

Anyway yeah suspect there's been some smart editing there to give the impression stuff is happening that might not. Is Mardy Teen Neil Gaiman really about to shoot his mum? Is Ren really about to turn (it would be an interesting turn of events)? Who knows, but it looks good...

... hmmm I've been fooled into thinking that before... when will I stop handing over my cash by default for this stuff... cos you know I will, I'm such a muppet, and not even one flying with Chewie.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Magnetica 10 October, 2017, 09:42:31 PM
Just watched the trailer and the extended one.

The flying and battle sequences look really cool - but really that is the sort of thing I expect them to up their game on every time.

I am sure the trailer is deliberately edited to mislead about who is saying what to whom and who is or isn’t going over to the dark side. I mean you would wouldn’t you? All helps to build excitement.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 11 October, 2017, 12:28:14 AM
The flying and battle sequences look really cool - but really that is the sort of thing I expect them to up their game on every time.

I feel like they're missing a trick somewhat in the space battles in the new SW movies - everything's too flashy and moves too fast to track properly. It all looks kind of videogamey to me. I dunno, something about them doesn't really feel 'connected' when they intercut between exterior and interior cockpit shots. I'd like to see them get back to the tactile feel of the smaller scale space battles in from the original movies, which themselves felt kind of like a throwback to WWII dogfighting movies.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 11 October, 2017, 09:21:22 AM
It's a good point. I had almost dismissed the dogfighting in TFA as background fireworks because it was just too fast to focus on, but when I did an umpteenth rewatch of a shiny Blu-Ray copy the other week, and took the time to concentrate on what was going on, it was really very cool: especially the Starkiller Base stuff, some lovely starfighter sequences.  Slowing it down, paring it back, maybe following one pilot through the fight (in the way the TIE fighter heist at the start works), would make it more accessible for older doddery types like me.  But I suspect that's rather unlikely to happen.  "Faster, more intense!" hasn't gone away, you know.

I'm liking that booster rocket thing that's apparently jury-rigged to the back of an X-Wing in the new trailer.  Interested to see how that comes to be: I immediately assumed it was Poe, but then it occured that it might be something Rey fixed up to get Luke's old X-Wing back in the air and off Ach-Too.   
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Magnetica 11 October, 2017, 09:48:50 AM
I do hope that wasn't a pod race I glimpsed though.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Jim_Campbell 11 October, 2017, 10:56:38 AM
Ach-Too

Bless you.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 11 October, 2017, 11:47:04 AM
Cheers!  Gotta admit I thought they'd ditch that 'Act Two' name once Episode VIII was in production, it's a bit on the nose (ahem) even for Star Wars: even after 'Wobani' (Obi-Wan) and 'Scarif' (It's Gareth) in Rogue One. 
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 11 October, 2017, 05:28:20 PM
Slowing it down, paring it back, maybe following one pilot through the fight (in the way the TIE fighter heist at the start works)

Yup, the TIE fighter escape works much, much better, mainly because we're following two characters we like, there's a smooth escalation of peril, and we actually have a tangible sense of whats going on. The Starkiller attack by contrast just doesn't work on any level for me - it's completely devoid of tension or excitement, 'background fireworks' as you say. Maybe that's by design, and if it is, then why bother having it in the film at all? TFA is such a frustrating watch - the first half is so well done, and then it just completely falls apart about halfway through.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: edgeworthy 12 October, 2017, 04:29:04 AM
Okay am I alone in seeing Plif the Hoojib in the trailer?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Goaty 02 November, 2017, 12:46:30 PM
TV spot, like it!

https://youtu.be/L-orX6Sa1OI (https://youtu.be/L-orX6Sa1OI)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 02 November, 2017, 02:14:05 PM
Ooh yeah, that's levitating all the right rocks for me.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 05 December, 2017, 05:19:06 AM
Is it just me, or is there relatively little hype about this movie, considering that its barely more than a week from release? I'm really not hearing anybody talking about it in the real world, and no one's even posted on this thread for over a month...

And is it just me that has found all of the marketing materials and trailers seriously underwhelming? Maybe Disney are supremely confident about this movie and are deliberately holding a lot of cool stuff back?

I mean, it's obviously going to be a big hit and all, but I'm just not really feeling a palpable sense of awareness and excitement about this movie in the way I did in the run up to the release of Rogue One and especially TFA...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Dark Jimbo 05 December, 2017, 08:33:38 AM
Is it just me, or is there relatively little hype about this movie, considering that its barely more than a week from release? I'm really not hearing anybody talking about it in the real world, and no one's even posted on this thread for over a month...
I mean, it's obviously going to be a big hit and all, but I'm just not really feeling a palpable sense of awareness and excitement about this movie in the way I did in the run up to the release of Rogue One and especially TFA...

Speaking as a non-fan who watches the trailers out of curiosity... all looks pretty samey, dunnit? Chewbacca, Millenium Falcon, lightsaber battles, etc etc, same old same old - even more so than previous films. I don't see much to get excited about. It looks the absolute definition of 'generic Star Wars movie'.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 05 December, 2017, 09:54:45 AM
This is the first of the "new" films that I've got high hopes for. Force awakens had to, understandably I think, tick a lot of boxes to get the franchise rolling and Rogue One was just plain horrible (bad film).....but this I think is the first opportunity for a director to make his own film. Obviously Disney have been impressed with it enough to throw this director another trilogy.

I've got a good feeling about this.

And next Thursday..   I guess I'll know!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Magnetica 05 December, 2017, 11:18:46 AM
Is there an element of it falling into a routine: 2nd week of December = new Star Wars movie?

I guess loads of fans (including me and my son) will automatically go and see it regardless of any trailers or advertising.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mardroid 05 December, 2017, 12:25:07 PM
A bit of an aside, but speaking of merchandise: I processed some Porgs at work at the warehouse of a popular online retailer on Saturday/Sunday. They made a strange chattering sound as I pushed them into the bins* for the robot to take away.**

I think some small children are going to be delighted, and some adults very irritated over the next few months...  :lol:

* I wasn't throwing them away. They'd be shelves to you and me, but they're referred to as bins at work. They're part of a shelving unit called a 'pod'.

** I'm actually not making that up. I work with robots sometimes.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: abelardsnazz 05 December, 2017, 12:30:23 PM
I guess there was a big hoo-ha about The Force Awakens as it was the first film in the franchise since the underwhelming second (first) trilogy, and the trailer had the Millennium Falcon, Stormtroopers etc., reminding so many of us of our youth.

Now here we are, three films in to an established regular franchise - I'm still excited, but it's somewhat diminished, for me, in the same way as when Doctor Who returns each year. However when the opening logo comes up and the music starts, those hairs on the back of my neck stand up and I don't want to be anywhere else.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Jim_Campbell 05 December, 2017, 12:33:11 PM
guess loads of fans (including me and my son) will automatically go and see it regardless of any trailers or advertising.

I pre-booked seats for an afternoon showing on the 16th — the tickets had been on sale for a day and that showing was at least 75% booked already. I think it'll do just fine.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JamesC 05 December, 2017, 01:10:30 PM
I think there's an air of cautious optimism that possibly means there's less to say?
When people don't know whether to expect terrible or amazing there's lots to debate. I think most people expect this one to range somewhere between 'quite good' and 'absolutely brilliant'. There are fewer nay-sayers to shoot down and the more-optimistic seem slightly less delusional.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 05 December, 2017, 05:00:51 PM
I guess there was a big hoo-ha about The Force Awakens as it was the first film in the franchise since the underwhelming second (first) trilogy, and the trailer had the Millennium Falcon, Stormtroopers etc., reminding so many of us of our youth.

Yeah totally, the response was bound to be a bit muted compared to the build up to TFA, and maybe that's all this is.

Should say again, I don't think there's any chance this movie will flop, I've just noticed that the rabid fanboy hype machine hasn't really kicked into high gear yet - and if it hasn't by now, it probably isn't going to. From a few of the responses here, it seems that I'm not alone in that thought.

all looks pretty samey, dunnit? Chewbacca, Millenium Falcon, lightsaber battles, etc etc, same old same old - even more so than previous films. I don't see much to get excited about. It looks the absolute definition of 'generic Star Wars movie'.

It's weird - I have very mixed feelings about The Force Awakens, but there are still moments in that first full trailer that still give me goosebumps. The Last Jedi trailer, by contrast, just kind of washes over me. There isn't a single shot in it that really moves the needle in terms of making me excited to see the movie. As you say, it just looks like more of the same. What's worse is that form the look of the trailer, it looks like this film will pay homage to/rip off Empire Strikes Back every bit as much as TFA does the original movie, which seems a bit disappointing...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: matty_ae 05 December, 2017, 05:19:35 PM
According to Forbes the 'I'm not as excited to see The Last Jedi' feeling is intentional

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/11/22/star-wars-the-last-jedi-aims-for-near-record-200m-debut/#680f77911190

Makes sense trying to keep expectations lower and then over-deliver. I think there's going to be some story twists that we haven't seen in any of the comms so far.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 05 December, 2017, 05:22:59 PM
Things can always go sideways - there's a reason so many critics keep gambling that this Marvel movie will be the one that breaks the streak.  Even with a sure-fire hit on your hands, a fresh coat of paint on overly-familiar tropes will only get you so far: just ask the blokes putting the fourth Star Trek reboot movie together, or that third Amazing Spider-Man movie, or whatever that billion-dollar YA franchise was that utterly tanked on its third installment.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 05 December, 2017, 05:46:17 PM
I think there's going to be some story twists that we haven't seen in any of the comms so far.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at earlier. I think there's a fair chance that Disney are feeling so confident about what they have up their sleeve, they are deliberately holding a lot of stuff back until the film is out. IIRC we've barely seen anything about the new cast members in any of the promotional stuff so far, which is a good sign I'd say.

On the other hand, I'm not sure I fully go along with the notion that because Rian Johnson is directing, this will be a slam dunk. Of his films I've only seen Looper, which was decent, nothing more nothing less.

Without wanting to be unduly negative, I think that if TLJ is anything less than outstanding, and if it doesn't deliver some genuinely surprising plot developments and fresh ideas, I think it's probably time for me to admit to myself that my Star Wars fandom really only extends to the original trilogy, and bow out for all future entries.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 05 December, 2017, 05:53:19 PM
Another example of the lack of hype - I remember that when the trailer for TFA hit, it felt like an event. At my work the whole office came to a halt and everyone gathered round to watch it. By comparison, when the trailer for TLJ was released, literally no one in the office aside from me cared, and the only response when I posted a link on our internal messaging system was a solitary 'meh'.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Pete Wells 05 December, 2017, 06:52:28 PM
Rian Johnson said that there’s certain things they’ve chosen to share and things that they have categorically kept out of the trailer - which is obvious I suppose. Mark Hamill has also asked people not to spoil the film.

I have a really good feeling about it and can’t bloody wait! 8 days and counting!!!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 05 December, 2017, 07:57:32 PM
Yep, I am unusually optimistic too. I was very pessimistic about TFA, and a bit tepid about it coming out of a first viewing, but I've really warmed to more each time I've watched it. I like Johnson's attitude, and I'm looking forward to this new broken Luke. I'm mainly hoping they have done more with the 'homage' setpieces than ESB-with-jump-cuts. Ready to be entertained!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tiplodocus 05 December, 2017, 09:48:49 PM
. I'm mainly hoping they have done more with the 'homage' setpieces than ESB-with-jump-cuts.

The trailer does make it look like the Hoth battle may be spliced with the asteroid chase. Except with red dust!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: ABCwarBOT 06 December, 2017, 01:57:28 AM
Whilst I'm glad to see more Star Wars with the original cast the last film though ok was pretty much a remake of A New Hope so let's hope this one's familiar but has something at least a bit new to offer.  The problem with Disney though is they'll probably end up flogging Star Wars to death and it'll go on and on for the rest of time.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 06 December, 2017, 02:45:29 AM
The problem with Disney though is they'll probably end up flogging Star Wars to death and it'll go on and on for the rest of time.

Lucasfilm were all ready busy doing just that before Disney bought them: Lucas had plans to produce the sequels and a TV series himself but certain developments collapsed (plans for a bigger studio building got scuppered) so he threw his cards in and sold it all off.


: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: ABCwarBOT 07 December, 2017, 03:11:14 AM
The problem with Disney though is they'll probably end up flogging Star Wars to death and it'll go on and on for the rest of time.

Lucasfilm were all ready busy doing just that before Disney bought them: Lucas had plans to produce the sequels and a TV series himself but certain developments collapsed (plans for a bigger studio building got scuppered) so he threw his cards in and sold it all off.


There's no doubt that's true and Lucas didn't exactly give us good prequels (except for ROTS which wasn't too bad) but these big corporations don't know when to stop.   I suppose it could go either way though.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: DrRocka 07 December, 2017, 07:57:15 AM
For me, Star Wars films are divided by Those With Han Solo In (fab), and Those Without Han Solo In (much less fab). Looks like they’re all gonna be Those Without Han Solo In from now on, so I struggle to muster up enthusiasm. Hopefully this’ll be the film that breaks the Han Solo rule....
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 07 December, 2017, 04:31:39 PM
Am I the only person who didn't actually like Han Solo?  Don't get me wrong, I totally get that he went out like a punk, but I just never cared much for the character.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 07 December, 2017, 05:34:03 PM
Am I the only person who didn't actually like Han Solo?

A simple 'yes' will do, I think.

Wish it had never happened, but still think Han's death scene was fantastic.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 07 December, 2017, 05:49:03 PM
For me, Star Wars films are divided by Those With Han Solo In (fab), and Those Without Han Solo In (much less fab). Looks like they’re all gonna be Those Without Han Solo In from now on, so I struggle to muster up enthusiasm. Hopefully this’ll be the film that breaks the Han Solo rule....

Well, they have Oscar Isaac, and that dude has Han Solo level charisma imo. Let's hope they actually give him something to do in this one.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: I, Cosh 09 December, 2017, 10:15:13 AM
Is it just me, or is there relatively little hype about this movie, considering that its barely more than a week from release? I'm really not hearing anybody talking about it in the real world, and no one's even posted on this thread for over a month...
Hard to say. It's out next week and I haven't even seen a trailer yet, but that's probably because I haven't been to the cinema for months.

Haven't seen Force Awakens since Boxing Day of whatever year it came out either so will have no clue who anybody is.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Proudhuff 09 December, 2017, 10:31:54 AM
waoh! Hans Solo is dead?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JLC 10 December, 2017, 04:19:10 PM
waoh! Hans Solo is dead?
Yes he was killed by his son Ben Solo (aka Kylo* Ren)

*Ky from sKYwalker & lo from soLO
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 10 December, 2017, 05:53:36 PM
Could've been worse - could've been Ersol.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 10 December, 2017, 09:28:29 PM
waoh! Hans Solo is dead?
Yes he was killed by his son Ben Solo (aka Kylo* Ren)

*Ky from sKYwalker & lo from soLO

This is partially why I'm convinced that Rey and Kylo Ren were originally written to be siblings before a late in the day script rewrite* - IIRC original leaks kept mentioning the female lead would be 'Han Solo's daughter' - a character called 'Kyra' or 'Kira' which tellingly also begins with K and is (possibly) a hodgepodge of Skywalker and Leia/Organa.

*and this is why Rey's backstory is such a cop out, and feels like it has been lifted out of the script wholesale - because that's exactly what happened. Having Rey be a Syywalker also goes a long way to explaining many of the giant coincidences you have to swallow otherwise (such as Han and the Falcon being in such close proximity to her).
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 10 December, 2017, 09:33:15 PM
Also, early TLJ reactions are out, and are very positive. Always good to take them with a giant grain of salt, as I remember turkeys like Batman V Superman and Star Trek into Darkness getting similarly positive early twitter buzz.

What is very promising is that the early word almost universally seems to indicate that:

1. The story goes in a very unexpected direction (avoid spoilers at all costs).

2. There's a lot of humour.

3. None of the best bits are in any of the trailers.

So, cautiously optimistic.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 10 December, 2017, 09:36:46 PM
This is partially why I'm convinced that Rey and Kylo Ren were originally written to be siblings before a late in the day script rewrite* - IIRC original leaks kept mentioning the female lead would be 'Han Solo's daughter' - a character called 'Kyra' or 'Kira' which tellingly also begins with K and is (possibly) a hodgepodge of Skywalker and Leia/Organa.

*and this is why Rey's backstory is such a cop out, and feels like it has been lifted out of the script wholesale - because that's exactly what happened. Having Rey be a Syywalker also goes a long way to explaining many of the giant coincidences you have to swallow otherwise (such as Han and the Falcon being in such close proximity to her).

Yeah, I think this is very likely the case. 

While it does make things vague in unlikely in TFA, it's not necessarily a bad change in itself: mainly depends on how Rey's revised origins pan out.  As it stood, it was all uncomfortably similar to how things played out in the old Expanded Universe.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 10 December, 2017, 09:55:33 PM
This is partially why I'm convinced that Rey and Kylo Ren were originally written to be siblings before a late in the day script rewrite* - IIRC original leaks kept mentioning the female lead would be 'Han Solo's daughter' - a character called 'Kyra' or 'Kira' which tellingly also begins with K and is (possibly) a hodgepodge of Skywalker and Leia/Organa.

*and this is why Rey's backstory is such a cop out, and feels like it has been lifted out of the script wholesale - because that's exactly what happened. Having Rey be a Syywalker also goes a long way to explaining many of the giant coincidences you have to swallow otherwise (such as Han and the Falcon being in such close proximity to her).

Yeah, I think this is very likely the case. 

While it does make things vague in unlikely in TFA, it's not necessarily a bad change in itself: mainly depends on how Rey's revised origins pan out.  As it stood, it was all uncomfortably similar to how things played out in the old Expanded Universe.

Yeah, i think that's probably why they changed it. Regardless, I think it would have made for a much better story had they kept it as was - so many problems with the plotting of TFA are imo a knock on effect caused by this pretty drastic change.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 10 December, 2017, 10:40:07 PM
If you sort of squint at the whole thing where they separated Luke and Leia and raised them apart because of Reasons and note JJA's love of recycling, the brother/sister thing could still be on the table, though I gather from comments made by Johnson, JJA didn't actually have any endgame for any of the dangling plot threads in TFA.  Which will shock those of us who watched Lost.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: abelardsnazz 13 December, 2017, 12:29:28 PM
Reviews I've seen have been positive, and Rotten Tomatoes is currently showing it as 93% Fresh. Will find out if I agree on Saturday, can't wait.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 13 December, 2017, 01:16:02 PM
27 hours and 45 minutes.........and counting.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 13 December, 2017, 01:42:39 PM
5 stars, and touted as the best Star Wars movie, in The Times today.

I'm seeing it at 10 am tomorrow morning.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Dr Feeley Good 13 December, 2017, 04:01:20 PM
I'm trooping tonight with the UKG at Manchester Printworks then a free viewing of the film at 12.00 .
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 13 December, 2017, 04:34:57 PM
touted as the best Star Wars movie

That old chestnut!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 13 December, 2017, 05:12:34 PM
touted as the best Star Wars movie

That old chestnut!

Well, we'll find out soon enough!

Although my opinion is generally considered invalid as my favourite is Rogue One and I've seen them all on within the first week of release.

Mind you, the excitement of the original will be unsurpassed in my eyes.

Even had a Star Wars lolly during the intermission whilst waiting for the second, most disappointing film ever, on the double bill.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tiplodocus 13 December, 2017, 05:36:34 PM
touted as the best Star Wars movie

I plan to say this. Until a few weeks later when I will recognise it as flawed. And when it comes out on bluray, it'll be my least favourite. And by the time it comes on telly, I'll fecking hate it.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 13 December, 2017, 05:41:17 PM
Rating Rogue One highly is far from making your opinion invalid, Matt - the whole point of the 'Story' films was (allegedly) to be different to the 'Saga' films, so the fact that it has variable appeal means that's working. 

Expectations managed, and tickets booked for Friday night, no more Facetwittering for me until then, I think.  I just about trust you guys, but the rest of the internet... not a jot. 
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 13 December, 2017, 05:56:22 PM
I'm sure TLJ will be fine - all I'll say is, yes, it's getting great (bordering on ecstatic) reviews, but if you remember, so did The Force Awakens.

A friend of mine who's already seen TLJ hasn't given an opinion on it, save to say that he thinks it will be very divisive. Take from that what you will...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 13 December, 2017, 08:12:56 PM
Expectations managed, and tickets booked for Friday night

I'll be at the Savoy, dahling.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 13 December, 2017, 08:35:02 PM
Nothing so flash for me, IMC Tallaght representin' (just easier to get to with the kids, and €27 for the 4 of us on a Friday evening!). 

Although now I wish I'd gone for the Savoy, while the old girl is still there.  Maybe for a second viewing! 
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Link Prime 14 December, 2017, 09:22:13 AM
As the Gravy Train has officially run out of steam, no more premiere city centre nights in IMAX for me- I'll be slummin it in Liffey Valley this Sunday evening.
Now there's just the difficult task of going internet dark between now and then.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Magnetica 14 December, 2017, 10:56:26 AM
It’s probably reached the time to avoid this thread until I have seen it.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 14 December, 2017, 01:46:12 PM
Just got back from seeing it.
This will be spoiler free as the spoiler button does not work for me on this browser.

Hmmmm.
Don't think it's even close to being the best Star Wars film. It's not even the best Star Wars film I've seen in the last 14 months.
Overlong, a bit pointless, style over substance, no heart, disappointing. These are my initial reactions.
It does look pretty good, but it's just not very good. 6/10

My Star Wars ranking;
#1 Rogue One
#2 Empire Strikes Back
#3 The Force Awakens
#4 Star Wars
#5 The Last Jedi
#6 The Return of the Jedi
#7 Revenge of the Sith
#8 Attack of the Clones
#9 The Phantom Menace

Still, I'm often wrong or have much different tastes to others.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Magnetica 14 December, 2017, 01:57:09 PM
So it’s better than Return of the Jedi at least. Which is my son’s (current) favourite Star Wars film.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 14 December, 2017, 02:10:27 PM
So it’s better than Return of the Jedi at least. Which is my son’s (current) favourite Star Wars film.

Only in my opinion.
But I don't like Ewoks, so...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Pete Wells 14 December, 2017, 03:08:19 PM
I loved it!!!

Four of us went last night, three loved it, one didn’t. So yeah, very decisive. PLEASE try and avoid spoilers!!!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 14 December, 2017, 03:45:54 PM
How different our star wars rankings are!

Seeing it in 1 hour and 20 minutes......expecting it to be either 5th, 6th or 7th on my list if it's good.

I really can't stand the ewoks, but Jedi is still my second favourite film (after Raiders.....though they tend to be interchangeable).
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 14 December, 2017, 04:11:36 PM
I loved it!!!

Four of us went last night, three loved it, one didn’t. So yeah, very decisive. PLEASE try and avoid spoilers!!!

Friend of mine saw it last night at the midnight showing and wasn't too keen but then saw it again with me, seven hours after his first viewing, and loved it.

I'm hoping for a similar experience once I've seen it again this weekend, this time in 3-D, at the weekend with my Wife and Son.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 14 December, 2017, 04:17:41 PM
I think it's ridiculous how much people knock RotJ these days. Yeah, it gets a bit silly towards the end, and it's easily the weakest of the OT, but it's still a stone cold classic, and is jam-packed with iconic sequences and visuals. Imo it's so much of a tighter, better constructed and more memorable film than any of the modern SW movies its not even funny.

My personal rankings would be:

1. Empire (I think the original works best as a standalone movie, but this is my go-to if I want to watch a SW movie)
2. Star Wars
3. Jedi

Big drop off

4. Force Awakens

MASSIVE drop off

5. Rogue One
6. Sith
7. Menace
8. Clones

I'm seeing TLJ tonight (Pacific Time) but one of my main worries going in is that I feel TFA set it up to fail in certain respects - especially regarding Luke's exile and Rey's back story, which imo cannot really be satisfactorily explained. I'm guessing that these aspects are the divisive bits?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: dweezil2 14 December, 2017, 04:41:04 PM
I think I set my expectations too high!!!!  :'(
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 14 December, 2017, 04:57:47 PM
0-30 mins - WOO HOO STAR WARS!

31-120 mins - tumbleweed

121-154 WOO STAR WARS! (please forget the middle part. Here is some music from TESB which will give you fond memories).

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 14 December, 2017, 04:59:52 PM
I think it's ridiculous how much people knock RotJ these days. Yeah, it gets a bit silly towards the end, and it's easily the weakest of the OT, but it's still a stone cold classic

It's tosh. Enjoyable tosh, but still tosh.
Made to sell action figures.
And ruin pretty much everything that went before it.
Which is why the series almost died out.
Because of the tosh.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 14 December, 2017, 05:01:05 PM
especially regarding Luke's exile and Rey's back story, which imo cannot really be satisfactorily explained. I'm guessing that these aspects are the divisive bits?

These bits are, imo, the best bits of the film and the heart of the movie.
It's the rest I could do without.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JLC 14 December, 2017, 05:02:38 PM
I think it's ridiculous how much people knock RotJ these days. Yeah, it gets a bit silly towards the end, and it's easily the weakest of the OT, but it's still a stone cold classic, and is jam-packed with iconic sequences and visuals. Imo it's so much of a tighter, better constructed and more memorable film than any of the modern SW movies its not even funny.

My personal rankings would be:

1. Empire (I think the original works best as a standalone movie, but this is my go-to if I want to watch a SW movie)
2. Star Wars
3. Jedi

Big drop off

4. Force Awakens

MASSIVE drop off

5. Rogue One
6. Sith
7. Menace
8. Clones

I'm seeing TLJ tonight (Pacific Time) but one of my main worries going in is that I feel TFA set it up to fail in certain respects - especially regarding Luke's exile and Rey's back story, which imo cannot really be satisfactorily explained. I'm guessing that these aspects are the divisive bits?
No. The divisive bit is the flashback to Aunt Beru & Ben Kenobi making out behind the moisture farm.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 14 December, 2017, 05:08:27 PM
Having said all that I have, and I really do hope I've not ruined anything for anyone, there are two stone cold classic moments in the film which are destined to go down in Star Wars history as the best of the franchise.

These bits gave me proper goosebumps.

I'll be interested if anyone agrees with the two bits I'm referring to.

Those I'm looking forward to seeing again.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 14 December, 2017, 05:20:08 PM
Which is why the series almost died out.
Because of the tosh.

More likely because George Lucas, at the time, wasn't interested in making any more and the storyline that had been set-up was concluded.


: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 14 December, 2017, 05:27:59 PM
Which is why the series almost died out.
Because of the tosh.

More likely because George Lucas, at the time, wasn't interested in making any more and the storyline that had been set-up was concluded.

Including fluffy bears. Concluded with fluffy bears.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: dweezil2 14 December, 2017, 05:49:16 PM
Hard to discuss the film without fear of spoilerness, suffice to say, the film was very uneven.

I can certainly see where the accusations of divisive will come from.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 14 December, 2017, 06:18:52 PM
Hard to discuss the film without fear of spoilerness, suffice to say, the film was very uneven.

My thoughts exactly.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Magnetica 14 December, 2017, 07:01:42 PM
Jedi is still my second favourite film (after Raiders.....though they tend to be interchangeable).

Yeah I tend to think of Raiders as my favourite film of all time too.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 14 December, 2017, 07:09:05 PM
Jedi is still my second favourite film (after Raiders.....though they tend to be interchangeable).

Yeah I tend to think of Raiders as my favourite film of all time too.

John Carpenter's The Thing is mine.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 14 December, 2017, 07:54:02 PM
Jaws for me.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 14 December, 2017, 08:15:31 PM
Jaws for me.

That's my 2nd fave but it's damn close with my first.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 14 December, 2017, 09:16:58 PM
Heh, The Thing's definitely in my Top Five.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 14 December, 2017, 09:30:21 PM
Well, I saw it!

And yeah.......sigh, crushing disappointment. I really didn't like it.

Won't spoil for anyone, but im not bothering with a second cinema viewing I don't think.

Modern star wars is getting more and more unsatisfying for me with each subsequent film.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 14 December, 2017, 09:59:03 PM
Skim-reading to avoid spoilers, but man, this one doesn't seem to be going down very well so far...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Dr Feeley Good 14 December, 2017, 10:45:57 PM
Watched at 12.00 last night after trooping the Printworks in Manchester...can't say much without giving anything away but I hated it ! Absolutely dreadful! I can honestly say it is the worst Star Wars movie ever !
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: dweezil2 14 December, 2017, 10:55:08 PM
Watched at 12.00 last night after trooping the Printworks in Manchester...can't say much without giving anything away but I hated it ! Absolutely dreadful! I can honestly say it is the worst Star Wars movie ever !

I don't think it's 'Attack Of The Clones' bad, but it's scrappy stuff for sure!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 15 December, 2017, 01:53:33 AM
Including fluffy bears. Concluded with fluffy bears.

And a shaggy dog.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 15 December, 2017, 05:49:15 AM
Oof, that was a bit of a dog’s dinner...

The main overriding thought that kept coming to mind again and again:

“That was a bit silly”.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 15 December, 2017, 06:38:33 AM
Having said all that I have, and I really do hope I've not ruined anything for anyone, there are two stone cold classic moments in the film which are destined to go down in Star Wars history as the best of the franchise.

These bits gave me proper goosebumps.

I'll be interested if anyone agrees with the two bits I'm referring to.

Worryingly, nope. Genuinely no idea which bits you’re referring to...

There’s a lot to digest, but man.... yeah, a lot of weird shit in this movie. A lot of pretty baffling creative decisions. It’s hard to put my finger on but it just didn’t feel like a Star Wars movie to me. Very over the top and cartoonish, a real lack of restraint. I actually feel like it has more in common with the prequels than the original trilogy in this respect.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 15 December, 2017, 07:09:16 AM
Having said all that I have, and I really do hope I've not ruined anything for anyone, there are two stone cold classic moments in the film which are destined to go down in Star Wars history as the best of the franchise.

These bits gave me proper goosebumps.

I'll be interested if anyone agrees with the two bits I'm referring to.

Worryingly, nope. Genuinely no idea which bits you’re referring to...

both bits are pretty fleeting tbh ah! this works now :)  The slow motion destruction of the imperial cruiser and the split second slo mo before Rey and Kylo kick ass against the imperial guards. The last bit is a blink and you miss it
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 15 December, 2017, 07:32:13 AM
Both were pretty moments out of context, but did not feel like moments from a Star Wars movie to me. Too flashy, too modern. In my mind Star Wars is supposed to feel quite old school, like an old adventure serial. There’s a lot of stuff in this movie that, I dunno, feels like it’s from a hyperkinetic Anime series or something, a lot of camera moves you’d expect from a Matrix knock-off. Not really my cup of tea.

I’m trying to process just how much of a mess TLJ was narratively. As I indicated earlier, I think its time for me to just admit to myself that I like the classic trilogy, and thats about it.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 15 December, 2017, 07:49:38 AM
Both were pretty moments out of context

Oh, I agree but considering I gave up 2 and a half hours of my time I wanted something in return and those two bits nearly did it for me.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 15 December, 2017, 10:13:30 AM
I've now had just under 24 hours to digest this movie in deeper thought and I've come to some conclusions;

Basically what Rian Johnson, the writer/Director, has done is take three sections from three different Star Wars movies and basically re-write them for this movie.
First up is the attack on the star destroyer that opens The Last Jedi. For me this is a very similar scene to the one that opens Revenge of the Sith including dialogue from the lead fighter (Anakin/Poe), full of bravado.

The next steal, a minor one, is the casino scene. A replicant of the cantina scene (even down to the music) which also throws in a shot steal from Jurassic Park for good measure.

The next major steal is the Rey/Ren/Snoke scene and this is almost a complete copy of the same scene from Return of the Jedi. Conversation between Rey and Ren in the lift where she tells him that there is good inside him is pretty close to what Luke tells Vader. Luke tries to use the force to retrieve a lightsaber just as Rey does, and finally Ren attacks his master and mentor as Vader does to the Emperor, killing him in the process.

The final big steal is the most obvious and that is the final battle which echoes the opening scenes of The Empire Strikes Back. I don't think I need to go into too much detail in this regard as it's all blindingly obvious.

Suffice to say that none of the scenes in The Last Jedi are better than the original scenes in my opinion.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Theblazeuk 15 December, 2017, 12:10:51 PM
I enjoyed it, but can't fault alot of the issues here. One of my issues with both of the new ones (and to a lesser extent i think in Rogue One too?) is the way hyperspace is basically teleporting exactly wherever you need to be whenever you need to be, until the narrative says not. For some reason in the originals I had more of a sense of it taking time to get from A to B.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Spikes 15 December, 2017, 12:15:07 PM
I like the classic trilogy, and thats about it.

Now that Disney has bought a good chunk of Fox, I wonder if we are a step closer to seeing a decent release for ANH?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 15 December, 2017, 12:37:39 PM
I enjoyed it, but can't fault alot of the issues here. One of my issues with both of the new ones (and to a lesser extent i think in Rogue One too?) is the way hyperspace is basically teleporting exactly wherever you need to be whenever you need to be, until the narrative says not. For some reason in the originals I had more of a sense of it taking time to get from A to B.

There was a slight sense of the in TLJ where we see Leia just sitting, pondering, whilst the stars rush by and then they arrive.

But you're right. In ANH Luke, Han, Chewie etc...have a good chat, play some games, do some training etc...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 15 December, 2017, 03:18:45 PM
Yep, this movie - egregiously so - due to pacing, editing and some storytelling choices that I find utterly unfathomable, very much continues the trend (started in TFA) of making the Star Wars universe feel smaller and smaller.

The original movies (and to a lesser extent even the prequels) did a good job of giving us a sense of scale and a glimpse of a much wider ongoing conflict. The battle between the FO and the Resistance/Rebellon/whatever? has all the epic scale of a brawl in a pub car park. And as with TFA there’s simply no context given for the conflict. We’re told that the ‘First Order Reigns’. Erm, why, didnt they get their asses kicked at the end of the last film? Who even are the First Order again?

I very much agree with Mattofthespirs re: recycling of previous scenes. I had heard so much about how ‘different’ and ‘bold’ this one is, and how it takes the story in a really different direction. I didn’t feel that way at all - I thought it was very predictable and incredibly contrived from beggining to end. Some of the worst ‘twists’ in the whole saga.

Dear oh dear.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 15 December, 2017, 05:10:41 PM
one of my main worries going in is that I feel TFA set it up to fail in certain respects - especially regarding Luke's exile and Rey's back story, which imo cannot really be satisfactorily explained.

Hey, I was right!!!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 15 December, 2017, 05:21:17 PM
Yep, this movie - egregiously so - due to pacing, editing and some storytelling choices that I find utterly unfathomable, very much continues the trend (started in TFA) of making the Star Wars universe feel smaller and smaller.


Spot on! I had the feeling all the way through TLJ that it felt 'small'.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 15 December, 2017, 05:23:11 PM
I do feel that Rey's backstory is bullshit in regards to what we learn in the film.

Certainly hoping so anyway the interaction between Leia and Rey certainly suggests Mother and daughter to me which would obviously mean that Ren and Rey are siblings which seems kinda obvious.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 15 December, 2017, 06:00:51 PM
I completely take Rey's origins as stated in this film at face value - ie her parents were nobody, she comes from nothing.

It was really the only way it could have been resolved given how thoroughly TFA really painted itself into a corner - I've made my feelings on this matter clear in the past (that yes, in the original script for TFA, Rey was clearly intended to be the daughter of Han and Leia and the sister of Kylo Ren but there was a sudden late-stage script rewrite to nix this that caused a whole load of story problems), but having her suddenly turn out to be related to the Skywalkers at this stage would make no sense.

I'm not saying having her origins be humble is a bad thing - far from it. I'm saying teasing it as a mystery for 2 years and the best part of two long films only reveal it to be such is lame and unsatisfying.

Rubbish.

And while we're on the subject of fruitless wastes of time, what exactly was the point of Finn and Poe's stories in this movie? Why yet again dedicate so much screen time to the pursuit of a maguffin that ultimately turns out to be completely pointless? By the end of the movie you just feel like you've witnessed what basically amounts to wheel-spinning. By the end of the movie, nothing has meaningfully changed since the end of the last movie regarding character development except that what? Poe now knows how to run away?

Spot on! I had the feeling all the way through TLJ that it felt 'small'.

Like, why reduce the entire Resistance to '400' individuals? (and then proceed to apparently reduce that number down to half a dozen?). There's such a ridiculous amount of slaughter and destruction in this movie to the point where it loses all impact and meaning. As I say, a complete and utter lack of restraint. There's a desperation about this movie - a feeling of them throwing everything against the wall hoping some of it sticks. The tone is all over the shop.

And the borderline fourth wall breaking humour from TFA is back with a vengeance in this one. It's completely excruciating at times. I guess Finn's favourite movie is The Empire Strikes Back, since he seems to like referencing dialogue from it?

The more I think about this film, the more I dislike it.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 15 December, 2017, 06:22:06 PM
So, it's shit like I thought it was.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 15 December, 2017, 07:03:33 PM
Without going into specifics, the ticking clock structure - often multiple simultaneously ticking clocks - designed to heighten the tension just feel so incredibly contrived and silly. That alone pretty much capsizes the whole thing. It's just so clumsily and poorly constructed.

It's all so convoluted that I really had trouble following what should be a really simple A to B kind of plot - and they seem to make up the rules of how everything works on the fly, so I found it impossible to get invested in what was happening, or feel that the stakes were real.

I don't think it's 'Attack Of The Clones' bad

One bit is. It feels like it was directly lifted out of the prequels. You know the one.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 15 December, 2017, 10:17:19 PM
The giant rabbit riding thing? I thought that whole sequence could have been cut without it affecting the outcome.

Laura Dern's brilliant plan involved no-one on half a dozen star-destroyers looking out of the fucking window?Yes I know they said they were cloaked, but they looked pretty visible when she was watching them peel off.

Rose's intervention was wank (of the first order) so to speak - that and the little rascals at the end.... ugh.

Some spectacularly great bits like the beginning battle, bafflingly flat delivery by Daisy Ridley at times,was half expecting her to end a sentence with Ro-land at times.

Too much self-referencing, out of character dialogue - 'A page turner'

Was that Ackbar getting a shitty death?

So agree on the smaller and smaller scale of everything
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 15 December, 2017, 10:41:54 PM
Yep, I don't know if was the script, the direction or both, but some of Rey's line readings were awful. Just awful.

Agree on the final shot of the movie. It was so, so bad - total fan wank and nothing like anything in any other SW movie.

Yes on the space-horse race being the bit I was talking about. There's also another really prequely, bit when (shudder) BB-8 drives the walker.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: DrRocka 15 December, 2017, 11:28:24 PM
Was it me, or was the whole thing a cartoon version of the Battlestar Galactica episode “33”?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 15 December, 2017, 11:47:07 PM
Well I thought it was great!  Frustratingly long and uneven  I agree, but as a result filled with the kind of diversions that TFA lacked, and really  delightfully unpredictable in several places. I feel that seeing the various struggles, side quests and huge losses as irrelevant or inconsequential misses the one point that I thought the movie made very well.

Could have lived without Tiny Tim at the end, mind!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tinmachine 16 December, 2017, 12:17:45 AM
Was it me, or was the whole thing a cartoon version of the Battlestar Galactica episode “33”?

Yes indeed! I had the same vibe.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tinmachine 16 December, 2017, 12:23:32 AM
The movie was ok. Some good scenes, but good scenes don't make a good film.

I thought the art department was either heavily influenced, or just outright stole ideas from Hayo Miyazaki when it came to the design of the aliens in the film. From everything on that planet where Luke was playing Hermit to the Casino scenes. They all looked as if they stepped out of Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke etc.


: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 16 December, 2017, 12:30:17 AM
Can anyone explain/clarify Kylo Ren's arc/plot in this movie to me?

I really couldn't follow it at all, and despite all the shit that happened, and all the illusion of a dramatic change, he seemed to me to end up exactly back where he started at the end of The Force Awakens...   Am I wrong?

I feel that seeing the various struggles, side quests and huge losses as irrelevant or inconsequential misses the one point that I thought the movie made very well.

Ah, so the weaknesses in the writing are actually the strengths! Got it!  ;)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 16 December, 2017, 12:45:38 AM
Can anyone explain/clarify Kylo Ren's arc/plot in this movie to me?
...
Ah, so the weaknesses in the writing are actually the strengths! Got it!  ;)

I have much to say on these matters, but I'm typing on my shitty phone, so I'll hold off until I get to a keyboard. Suffice to say, the movie makes the point that war (even in the Stars) is a numbers game, in DJ's words 'the machine',  that only really benefits the money men, and that resisting a vast tyranny with an inferior military force only works in the long term if it inspires hearts and minds. All the suicidal trench-runs in the galaxy count for nothing if the galaxy itself doesn't change.   "We are the spark", not the fire itself.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Muon 16 December, 2017, 04:42:58 AM
Definitely didn't hate it but weirdly unsure if I liked it either. The flashes of Pythonesque/knowing humour were really jarring for me. Also, the tone was different to the Star Wars I grew up with. They seemed to be trying to frame the nature of the struggle in a more complex way than in the past, but at the same time they kept a lot of the characters mysterious and offered few insights into them. That was clearly on purpose, but it made it less satisfying for me.

Having said all that, it's possible my objections as a baldie who was born around the time the first one came out will actually be seen as this film's strengths in future years. This is the point at which this new series of films has broken away from the past and found its new voice. It's reframing the struggle between good and evil and giving it a bit more complexity that's more fitting for the world we're in now. Also it's asking more questions of how the rebellion can be sustained. These things are still jarring for me, but I can accept the need to move away from the fan service of old and establish a new tone for the whole thing.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Krakajac 16 December, 2017, 08:05:07 AM
A couple of my issues with TLJ...

Yoda's appearance. Wow - this was monumentally stuffed up. Remember when Yoda first meets Luke in ESB? He takes on the character of a simple 'denizen of the swamp', cracking jokes and trying to steal Luke's food. All a cunning ruse. You then get that beautiful moment when Luke gets angry and impatient - and immediately Yoda's character becomes serious/gruff. He sighs and says something along the lines of, "I cannot train him". Luke joins the dots and suddenly realises he's in the presence of the great master. Great stuff.

So why...in sweet Jesus' name, does Yoda fall back into this character in TLJ? There's absolutely no need for it. Yoda spends the majority of TPM, AOTC, ROTS, ESB and ROTJ - as a serious character - with the exception of the small part in ESB where he is trying to deceive Luke. Why on earth would he fall back into this character in TLJ? Arrgh. It does my head in. Yoda's reappearance as a force ghost should have been a majestic, ethereal moment. Nup, the writers just weren't interested.

I loved the introduction of the black BB-8 unit (or whatever his/her designation was). Surely what would follow would be a nifty showdown between the two droids - a la 'The Black Hole'? Nup, they don't even meet face-to-face. I know it wasn't feasible plot-wise - but imagine these two droids battling against each other, with the black BB-8 unit getting the upper hand - only for R2 to show up and save the day - or something along those lines (yes, I know R2 was elsewhere in TLJ).

Sigh...Chewbacca, Threepio and R2 - much loved original-trilogy characters with great backstories - all brushed aside and given bit parts.

Luke. Oh man. If I was Mark Hamill, I'd be miffed with how my character was developed in TLJ. At the end of TFA, we have the greatest of reveals - the legendary LUKE SKYWALKER, standing there, in the flesh. There's a reason the writers did this - he's an epic, respected character within the canon. And then the writers of TLJ, in their wisdom, decide to dismantle all of that. Again, just lazy. And I'm calling shoddy writing on the whole 'force projection' thing that Luke pulls at the end.

By my understanding, Admiral Ackbar dies in TLJ. He wasn't given any kind of honourable death - just a vague reference to his passing by another character. But Laura Dern's purple-haired under-developed character - whom we have NEVER met before - gets to go out with a bang. Do any of us really care about her demise? I didn't. However, if it had been Ackbar at the controls of that ship when it went to light-speed. Epic...

Same goes for Benicio Del Toro's character - a fantastic actor - absolutely wasted in TLJ. More slopping writing - Finn and Rose travel to the casino planet, trying to track down the 'code-breaker'. They get arrested and thrown into a cell - where they just happen to meet another 'code-breaker' - who then deceives them any way. As someone pointed out on another forum - this would have provided the perfect reintroduction of Lando - casinos, gambling, etc. And after all of that - Rose and Finn's efforts still don't pay off.

I could go on...

Leia's 'force-pull' in the vacuum of space.

Rebellion soldiers falling into trenches to battle walkers. Oh gawd...

The strange premise of the 'race in space' at sub-light speeds.

Snoke...who was he? How does (did) he fit into the whole story?

The First Order - a laughably, inept enemy - who were completely smashed in TFA - only to 'reign' by the start of TLJ - remembering that TLJ follows directly on from TFA. After their Starkiller Base was destroyed in TFA - the First Order should have been in complete disarray. Nup - apparently they 'reign'. The Empire would be rolling in it's grave.


That'll do me before my brain implodes.

I loved Rogue One - and greatly enjoyed TFA. So I'm not 'hating' on TLJ simply because it's the trendy thing to do. And I always try to find the good in a movie I desperately want to enjoy. No such luck with TLJ.

I'll be very surprised if Rian Johnson gets the new SW trilogy that Disney have offered him.

And yes - all of the above is from the perspective of a card-carrying SW geek who expects these movies to be GREAT and EPIC. They don't need to be perfect - but they need to be memorable for the right reasons.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 16 December, 2017, 10:51:19 AM
Can't argue with any of the above.

The Leia in space using the force was where the film jumped the shark for me. Not only was it ridiculous, even for a sci fi fantasy movie, but they fact they opened the doors to open space and everything was fine was even worse.
In regards to Yoda...I just assumed he was pissed. The books were saved anyway as they appeared on the Falcon at the end.


It's a mess and gets worse the more I ponder it. Still, seeing it again tomorrow, with my Wife and Son, in 3-D.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 16 December, 2017, 11:38:18 AM
Still on the phone, so I'll keep it to a few observations.

Can't quite get over how many twists and surprises TLJ managed to deliver without resorting to annoying cameos (Maz is always welcome). Most of the callbacks to the OT were with a deliberate view to subverting expectations, and a great deal of time was spent building up to shocking reversals - which makes me wonder how re-watchable this will be now I know the outcomes.

OTOH I've been demanding new stuff, and complaining that TFA was just too spare in terms of plot, and this film delivered buckets of new, while blasting trough what felt like several films worth of story.

I'd definitely have had the original slicer/gambler be Lando, just for giggles, but I thought Beinicio's DJ was terrific, and important. Howevery I could make no sense of Vice Admiral Holdo or indeed Dern's acting, and wish that Ackbar had done the final deed.

I did think the way Luke's power was handled was superb, a very neat solution.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JLC 16 December, 2017, 11:40:18 AM
Can't argue with any of the above.

The Leia in space using the force was where the film jumped the shark for me. Not only was it ridiculous, even for a sci fi fantasy movie, but they fact they opened the doors to open space and everything was fine was even worse.
In regards to Yoda...I just assumed he was pissed. The books were saved anyway as they appeared on the Falcon at the end.


It's a mess and gets worse the more I ponder it. Still, seeing it again tomorrow, with my Wife and Son, in 3-D.
We don't say "jumped the shark" anymore. We say "floated the princess"
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 16 December, 2017, 11:42:55 AM
I shall keep that in mind for future reference  :lol:
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 16 December, 2017, 11:44:10 AM
Ah I liked that scene, about time she strutted her stuff, but I do wish she'd grabbed Ackbar on the way in.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 16 December, 2017, 04:48:06 PM
On reflection, I'm grateful that Lando was not included in the last jedi. At this point he remains the only lead character from the original trilogy that "new" star wars hasn't brought to their knees.

He's all I've got left to hold on to from Return of the Jedi.....please God don't let them shoe horn him into Episode 9 just so that they can show me what a complete failure he turned out to be.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 16 December, 2017, 04:54:31 PM
That is indeed the central problem with the Sequels, and given the time frame, an inescapable one.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 16 December, 2017, 04:56:23 PM
On reflection, I'm grateful that Lando was not included in the last jedi. At this point he remains the only lead character from the original trilogy that "new" star wars hasn't brought to their knees.

He's all I've got left to hold on to from Return of the Jedi.....please God don't let them shoe horn him into Episode 9 just so that they can show me what a complete failure he turned out to be.

Well they've not done an awful lot with the droids, and to a lesser extent, Chewie either.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 16 December, 2017, 05:37:25 PM
I feel chewie got over the han thing too easily. He's very fickle 😂
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 16 December, 2017, 06:29:03 PM
Having him dress one of the Porgs in a little Han waistcoat might have been a bit much.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 16 December, 2017, 08:31:15 PM
A missed oppirtunity to be sure!

Finally twigged where I'd seen the main Falthier sequence before - Company of Wolves!

Now trying to think of any metaphorical (or other) significance to the locations of the three sympathetic 'animal' species - Porgs, Falthier and Crystal Critters.

This movie has got deep into my head.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 16 December, 2017, 09:26:35 PM
I've been trying to work out why Snoke is such a big fat nothing of a character when he's basically a carbon copy of the Emperor.

Ever since TFA came out, people online have been trying to theorise as to Snoke's back story, much as they have with Rey*, and for similar reasons. Why do they feel there is something missing about this character, or some mystery that needs solving, when no one has that issue with the Emperor? I mean, all we know about the Emperor in RotJ is that he's an evil wizard, and both characters share about the same amount of screen time and character development.

So why then is the Emperor such a memorable character and Snoke such a shit one?

And I think I've worked it out.

It's because the Emperor isn't really a character, he's just a cipher - a conduit for Luke and Vader's relationship. That's what makes him interesting. Transpose that to the sequel films where it's the relationship between Rey and Ren standing in for that of Luke and Vader, and let's face it, Rey is such a blank slate of a character compared to Luke. We saw Luke struggle, and fail, and grow, and totally transform from boy to man over the course of three films. His decision to confront Vader and the Emperor is the natural culmination of his storyline. Rey on the other hand is still basically exactly who she is when we met her at the beginning of TFA. We never really see her fail, or even really lose her cool. She doesn't really have any character flaws. And don't even try to dispute that - it's a fact.

And this is why the whole Throne Room scene in TLJ is so hollow and devoid of real drama. In the equivalent scene in Jedi, we understand the dynamics totally. Luke wants to redeem his father. Vader wants Luke to help him overthrow the Emperor. The Emperor wants Luke to turn to the Dark Side and replace Vader as his lieutenant. It's a complex dance that still feels tense even when you know the outcome. By contrast, I didn't really understand why Snoke was doing what he was doing in TLJ. Was he trying to turn Rey? Kill her? It wasn't really clear or obvious other than the film outright telling us via some pretty dopey exposition. In any case, why make such a meal of it? The whole thing felt so drawn out and contrived - not organic at all. What's the connection between Rey and Ren that makes their relationship interesting? The Force? It's hardly gripping stuff.

For similar reasons, Snoke showing Rey the rebel fleet getting destroyed has no impact, because Rey has hung out with those guys for what? Five minutes at the end of the last film? You don't get the same sense of desperation of Luke watching his friends be destroyed.

It's like they just copy all of the dramatic beats from the original trilogy without really understanding the underpinnings of character drama that made them work the first time round.

Most of the callbacks to the OT were with a deliberate view to subverting expectations, and a great deal of time was spent building up to shocking reversals...

People keep saying stuff like this, and I feel like I'm going crazy, because the film I saw was a fairly hackneyed and predictable hodgepodge of recycled scenes from Empire and Jedi.

*btw, I find it hilarious that so many people still think there's more to Rey's story than we're being told, even though this film came right out and told us directly that there isn't. I've seen so many comments online of people trying to argue that Ren was lying about the identity of Rey's parents.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 16 December, 2017, 09:38:29 PM
On reflection, I'm grateful that Lando was not included in the last jedi. At this point he remains the only lead character from the original trilogy that "new" star wars hasn't brought to their knees.

He's all I've got left to hold on to from Return of the Jedi.....please God don't let them shoe horn him into Episode 9 just so that they can show me what a complete failure he turned out to be.

Said it before and I'll say it again: Luke should have been dead before this new trilogy began (murdered by Kylo Ren) and he should have only appeared in the new films in the form of a ghost.

It would have been a tough pill to swallow for long term fans, but I would argue less of one than turning Luke into a coward the way these films have.

And like it or not, Luke had to die at some point. He's just too powerful a chess piece to remain on the board. At least this way would have allowed him to go out with a little more dignity, and it would, imo, also have a made a great, genuinely unexpected twist.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Theblazeuk 16 December, 2017, 10:25:50 PM
One big thing about Snokes being basically the emperor is that we *already had the emperor*. In the first trilogy the Empire and its ruler had been the status quo for the characters entire lives (not obi wan). In the new movies, Snoke 'turned Ben' - when? How? He's also a big cgi person which is never compelling.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 16 December, 2017, 10:35:14 PM
Absolutely, Luke should have only been a force ghost in the Sequel Trilogy (Like he was in the Legacy comics)  and Han and Leia happy and dead of old age. I wish it were so.

 But no one pays a squintillion bucks for IP and then makes a movie series about brand new characters. 

For these films to exist the old gang had to be in them, and for my money they've been handled as well as they possibly could have been, while maintaining the agency of their successors.

I thought every scene with Luke in this one was pure gold. Hamill was great, Luke's storyline and interactions were all terrific.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Apestrife 16 December, 2017, 10:48:53 PM
Saw it today. Quite entertaining. Some really cool visuals when Diane ripped through Snoke's B52 or Leia eying the salty upcoming battlefield, but also a couple of things I wouldn't have put in a Star Wars movie (a yo mamma joke among other things). Interested in seeing how they'll finish the trilogy.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 16 December, 2017, 10:51:30 PM
Interested in seeing how they'll finish the trilogy.

I'm not. For me, this was The Last One I'll Be Bothering With.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Rusty 17 December, 2017, 01:23:55 AM
Can't argue with any of the above.

The Leia in space using the force was where the film jumped the shark for me. Not only was it ridiculous, even for a sci fi fantasy movie, but they fact they opened the doors to open space and everything was fine was even worse.
In regards to Yoda...I just assumed he was pissed. The books were saved anyway as they appeared on the Falcon at the end.


It's a mess and gets worse the more I ponder it. Still, seeing it again tomorrow, with my Wife and Son, in 3-D.
We don't say "jumped the shark" anymore. We say "floated the princess"
Is this an actual quip in the film? I mean, did someone actually use that as a line?

I think I'll give this one a swerve. For some (like Radiator) this was the one that snuffed their interest in Star Wars, from what I've been reading.  Critics gushed over TFA when it came out, so I watched that and found it to be a tepid, lazy effort that I was glad I never paid to go see. Rogue One was the same, and I went to see that because it looked like it was trying something different, at least tonally, and found it to be much the same in that it was basically a fan wank that bored the balls off me for 2 hours, but at least I got a laugh at Tarkin's CGI cartoon effort. I'm not falling for Disney's gravy train again after that. Besides, Blade Runner 2049 is still stuck in my head. It wouldn't be fair.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 17 December, 2017, 01:50:07 AM
Absolutely, Luke should have only been a force ghost in the Sequel Trilogy

Imagine how much more rich Kylo Ren's story in these last two films would have been if in his quiet reflective moments he was literally being haunted by the spirit of Luke. It would put a really different spin on the Ben/Luke dynamic from the OT.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 17 December, 2017, 01:56:26 AM
One big thing about Snokes being basically the emperor is that we *already had the emperor*. In the first trilogy the Empire and its ruler had been the status quo for the characters entire lives (not obi wan). In the new movies, Snoke 'turned Ben' - when? How? He's also a big cgi person which is never compelling.

But that's exactly my point - We know next to nothing about the Emperor in Jedi, IIRC we don't even know his name ('Palpatine' coming from the old EU material if memory serves) - but no one asked 'How did he take over the galaxy?' 'How did he turn Vader?'.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Apestrife 17 December, 2017, 07:37:40 AM
Interested in seeing how they'll finish the trilogy.

I'm not. For me, this was The Last One I'll Be Bothering With.

Perfectly understandable.

For me The Last Jedi felt a bit like BOND: SPECTRE did. A movie which tried something different, but had some very odd moments for example the building with a bunch of posters of people Bond encountered lacking momentum.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 17 December, 2017, 07:52:30 AM
One big thing about Snokes being basically the emperor is that we *already had the emperor*. In the first trilogy the Empire and its ruler had been the status quo for the characters entire lives (not obi wan). In the new movies, Snoke 'turned Ben' - when? How? He's also a big cgi person which is never compelling.

But that's exactly my point - We know next to nothing about the Emperor in Jedi, IIRC we don't even know his name ('Palpatine' coming from the old EU material if memory serves) - but no one asked 'How did he take over the galaxy?' 'How did he turn Vader?'.

The name "palpatine" actually came from the Kenner action figure I think.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: auxlen 17 December, 2017, 08:16:22 AM
The trick with these new filsm is to treat it like the Star Trek Movies and NEW who. realise it is not made for you anymore and accept it. It doesnt make the films any better but it lessens the sting.

that being said

I liked:
That Rey's parent where nobodys. I personally hate that everybody is related to somebody in Star Wars
I even enjoyed the porgs and laughed when one was squished on the falcon's window
I originally disliked that the rebellion had so few men, then i realised,. they were on their arse and over the course of time all the men would have died as traditionally they would have been first on all the missions etc. made sense

disliked:
Jumping the princess
offscreen death of ackbar but the new audiences probably dont even know who he was
Yoda

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 17 December, 2017, 08:48:44 AM
: SIP link=topic=44087.msg975432#msg975432 date=1513497150?
The name "palpatine" actually came from the Kenner action figure I think.

Goes right back to rhe (superb) prologue to the ADF Star Wars novelisation, source given as 'The Journal of the Whills'. But it appeared on the 1998 Hasbro 'Flasback' Emperor figure in the lead-in to TPM, just in case anyone had escaped having the identity of the eponymous baddie spoiled.

The big difference between wondering about the Emperor and about Snoke is that we didn't know anything about the back story of ANH - the Emperor dissolved the Imperial Senate, in TESB he turns out to be ugly and sense stuff, and that was that. With Snoke we know Luke and Vader destroyed the Sith, Han and Lando destroyed the Empire, and we worder where the heck he came from. It's different.

Much as I enjoyed the twist of his rapid demise, I hope we do get some closure. Ryan Johnson's free hand paid dividends in terms of unpredictability, but I hope it didn't come at the cost of never getting answers about Ben and Snoke. I don't for one second believe that JJ had thought about any of it either, but it'd be nice if someone had.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 17 December, 2017, 08:53:35 AM
Double post: was that really Adrian Edmonson talking about the Resistance's (ooo-err) evacuation?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Pete Wells 17 December, 2017, 08:58:29 AM
Yeah, at this point I feel that Snoke is another Darth Maul, taken too soon. Still, I’m really quite looking forward to seeing how much Kylo fucks up the First Order. He’s hardly leadership material, as we saw on Crate.

While I found 8 to be patchy, I enjoyed it overall (I loved the ending) and am genuinely looking forward to seeing what the do with Episode 9.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 17 December, 2017, 10:28:05 AM
Double post: was that really Adrian Edmonson talking about the Resistance's (ooo-err) evacuation?

Yes.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Pete Wells 17 December, 2017, 10:33:53 AM
Just to add, the power Star Wars is amazing at bringing the absolute cock out in people. Obviously, most of my friends have the same or similar interests, so my social media is absolutely dominated by the last Jedi and I’m seeing all kinds of wierd behaviour!

This includes one guy who absolutely hates the film, but has been to see it four times in four days (cue loooong rants every single time.) There’s the usual gang of trollish idiots who, as usual, haven’t seen the film but feel the need to snidely comment on every single thread. It’s odd. We’ll add to that the Disney bashers, the people who simply have to tell us at every opportunity that they’ve never seen a Star Wars Film in their life (Hey, thanks for sharing that!)

I love Star Wars season, but it drives me potty too!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: abelardsnazz 17 December, 2017, 10:55:11 AM
I thought it was great. The Force Awakens and to a lesser degree Rogue One were crowd-pleasers, fitting in to and building on existing continuity. Rian Johnson has taken the reigns and moved the story on, and I for one hope he carries on to make three more. There were enough nods to the past, but not too many that it didn't feel fresh and genuinely exciting. I also loved the humour.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Jim_Campbell 17 December, 2017, 12:52:03 PM
Well, I quite liked it. A better film than The Force Awakens by some margin, for me, although not without significant flaws. I liked Rogue One more, but I’m definitely up for Episode IX.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mister Pops 17 December, 2017, 01:51:35 PM
Just to add, the power Star Wars is amazing at bringing the absolute cock out in people. Obviously, most of my friends have the same or similar interests, so my social media is absolutely dominated by the last Jedi and I’m seeing all kinds of wierd behaviour!

This includes one guy who absolutely hates the film, but has been to see it four times in four days (cue loooong rants every single time.) There’s the usual gang of trollish idiots who, as usual, haven’t seen the film but feel the need to snidely comment on every single thread. It’s odd. We’ll add to that the Disney bashers, the people who simply have to tell us at every opportunity that they’ve never seen a Star Wars Film in their life (Hey, thanks for sharing that!)

I love Star Wars season, but it drives me potty too!

I know what you mean. I am regularly baffled by some people's attempts at sounding  super smart and intellectuallizing movies about space wizards with lazer swords
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 17 December, 2017, 02:41:11 PM
Aren't you describing the film itself there?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Theblazeuk 17 December, 2017, 03:31:52 PM
One big thing about Snokes being basically the emperor is that we *already had the emperor*. In the first trilogy the Empire and its ruler had been the status quo for the characters entire lives (not obi wan). In the new movies, Snoke 'turned Ben' - when? How? He's also a big cgi person which is never compelling.

But that's exactly my point - We know next to nothing about the Emperor in Jedi, IIRC we don't even know his name ('Palpatine' coming from the old EU material if memory serves) - but no one asked 'How did he take over the galaxy?' 'How did he turn Vader?'.

I meant that we've already had it once, the same trick doesn't always work twice. Largely because unlike the first series, the origins of the first order and snokes aren't something that predates the main characters.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 17 December, 2017, 04:26:18 PM
Aren't you describing the film itself there?

 :lol:
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) 17 December, 2017, 04:37:45 PM
On the whole, I liked that more than any Star Wars since Revenge of the Sith. My main problem with these is the lack of Lucas. Whatever you think of the prequels, at least it was what he wanted, and he was unapologetic of his vision. These ones will always have a slight tinge of fan fiction about them, and it would be easy to dismiss them just as easily as I can dismiss the yards of paperbacks and comics in the shops.

That said, they mimic the "real" stuff very well, and if you squint and go in the best frame of mind, it's hard to fault them.
Problematic things:
Yoda. Lovely to see a puppet. But not THAT puppet.
What was up with that? The eyes were weird, the smirk was weird, it seemed stiff and expressionless... And the dialogue was just weird. We came out joking about "pyromaniac stoned Yoda who hits everybody with sticks"

Snoke. Excellent to see him killed, if he was. But why a CGI man and not an actor in makeup. He's human sized, basically human and the proportions of his face would fit a man in makeup. The CGI version just looked to me like it had "floating eyes".

That all said, I loved the end scene. I took it to mean that after a period of inactivity the Force had "awakened" and that all across the galaxy, people were at last fulfilling their potential to become Force users. The "fire" that Leia had spoken of being "sparked".

Very sad to see the death of Luke- and was unprepared for how moving I found that. Bearing in mind he's the first hero I can remember falling in love with as a small child, it felt like the end of innocence, in a way.

If they never made another Star Wars film, this could have served as a fitting End. As it goes, I have no idea what they can do next. 


SBT

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Big_Dave 17 December, 2017, 04:49:31 PM
.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 17 December, 2017, 05:00:10 PM
I also loved the humour.

I liked a lot of it. Goofy humour has always been a key part of SW, and a lot of the stuff with Luke - the milk scene, the porgs and the caretakers etc felt really in keeping with that. I even liked it when he casually tossed the lightsaber over his shoulder, it was a funny way to deflate 2 years of build up.

What I have issue with is what I took to be the irreverent, meta kind humour - there was a little of it in TFA ('That's not how the Force works!"), but quite a lot more of it in this one. Like when Rey makes a crack about the Jedi 'lifting rocks'. It doesn't really seem like something the character actually would say in that moment, it's more of a postmodern, self referential kind of quip you'd find in a Joss Whedon script. It's the kind of humour that works really well in the Marvel movies, but just didn't really sit right with me for a SW movie and really took me out of it, much like Chewie's weird 'Tarzan' bit does in Jedi. Likewise Yoda's use of the term 'page turner', or thing with the steam iron, which was just so baffling to me. It's like the film turned into Space Balls for a second there.

Rian Johnson has taken the reigns and moved the story on

I'd argue what he's actually done is pushed a giant reset button.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: hazy efc 17 December, 2017, 05:01:18 PM
I thought the last jedi was overall a better film than the force awakens it definitely has some issues pacing being one of them but Im nit picking, as for who stood out in the film Mark Hamill stole the show for me I could easily watch a whole film based on older Luke on his island also Carrie Fisher r.i.p was terrific too.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 17 December, 2017, 05:14:09 PM
Yeah, pretty much what radiator said.

The same when Luke calls it a laser sword - it jars a bit as if it's from someone talking about Star Wars rather than being a character inside it. Even things like running out of gas felt odd.

Best way I could explain it was when there's someone from the film doing a skit in character and it's just too knowing.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 17 December, 2017, 05:37:32 PM
It is great to see Hamill get the limelight again. He's so great on screen and he seems like such an awesome guy off screen too. I never understood why he didn't have much of a movie career after Star Wars.

Though I don't really like where they take his character in this, he plays the cranky recluse part really well.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JamesC 17 December, 2017, 05:39:40 PM
Just back from seeing the film as a birthday treat. I enjoyed it but I can see the flaws.
The most annoying thing for me was the total ineffectiveness of Star Destroyers in the film.

Return of the Jedi remains my favourite Star Wars film (the original version, before they ruined it).
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 17 December, 2017, 05:45:27 PM
Return of the Jedi remains my favourite Star Wars film (the original version, before they ruined it).

Anyone know how the Fox merger affects the likelihood of Disney rereleasing the unaltered originals?

I had always assumed they were waiting for Lucas to pop his clogs, but maybe this changes things?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 17 December, 2017, 05:49:27 PM
Best way I could explain it was when there's someone from the film doing a skit in character and it's just too knowing.

Yeah, it's kinda like an SNL skit or something, or a self-aware spoof like Galaxy Quest.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Enigmatic Dr X 17 December, 2017, 06:30:28 PM
Wow. Two of the worst plot holes I have ever come across, in any medium, totally spoiled this:

1. Laura Dern. If she just hadn't been so bloody minded and told the 400 desperate people for whom she was responsible that, y'know, she had a plan... then there'd have been no need to look for the code breaker

2. Del Toro. HOW? HOW? HOW could he sell out the rebels? He was only ever with Finn and Rose, and they didn't know Dern's plan (see point 1).

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 17 December, 2017, 06:34:38 PM
The same when Luke calls it a laser sword - it jars a bit as if it's from someone talking about Star Wars rather than being a character inside it.

That's a solid prequel reference, though - L'I'll Ani recognises Qui-Gon because of his 'laser sword'. It's meant to evoke the outsider's perception of the Jedi.

As to the rest, yes you can see it that way, but i'd remind you about things like "dusting crops", "see you in hell", and "would it help if I got out and pushed?". All quite 20th Century idioms.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JamesC 17 December, 2017, 06:37:56 PM
Return of the Jedi remains my favourite Star Wars film (the original version, before they ruined it).

Anyone know how the Fox merger affects the likelihood of Disney rereleasing the unaltered originals?

I had always assumed they were waiting for Lucas to pop his clogs, but maybe this changes things?

I’m really hoping the original versions will be released. I assume as Disney own the rights they can do what they like but I guess that may not be th case.

The more I think about The Last Jedi the more I feel like I did after watching Star Trek: Into Darkness. After a promising set-up film, the characters don’t feel like they’ve developed much over this film and some of the most dramatic situations don’t feel earned (Snoke’s death feels meaningless). It all looks pretty (though the re-designs of Star Destroyers and walkers are inferior to the originals) and there are some good bits here and there but it’s not a patch on any of the original films.
Overall, enjoyable but a bit disappointing. Like when all the best chocs have gone out of the Quality Street and you’re left with the second stringers.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 17 December, 2017, 06:42:12 PM
Sorry, double post.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 17 December, 2017, 06:57:34 PM
Wow. Two of the worst plot holes I have ever come across, in any medium, totally spoiled this...

Yeah....

Also, worth pointing out that all everything Finn/Poe a did in this movie resulted in more far more deaths than if they would have just done nothing. Wow, what great heroes. You could argue that's somewhat the point of Poe's arc, I'd argue that it's not intentional (the death of the bomber crews provides that function), it's just a byproduct of sloppy storytelling.

The whole premise was so overly complicated for what it needed to be. 'We need to get down to the surface of this planet so we can call our 'friends on the outer rim' to come help - let's just hope the Empire didn't bring a BATTERING RAM CANNON' seems like such a flimsy setup for the end of the movie. For simplicities sake why not just keep the rebels under siege on Crait for the duration of the movie and make that the ticking clock? Makes more sense to me than the really convoluted 'running out of fuel/hyperspace tracker' plot.

Why didn't the Empire just nuke Crait from space? On Hoth, they needed to do a ground assault to knock out the shield generators, right?

2. Del Toro

Ha, yeah. I didn't even catch that one. In any case, why did DJ even need to 'sell out' the rebels anyway? Did they not have him captive? Maybe I missed it - there was so much going on at that point I was finding it really hard to follow.

Also, having the sketchiest, least trustworthy character be the one to him ultimately betray them was such a non-twist.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 17 December, 2017, 07:13:40 PM
Look, it's a f*cking mess.

Taken on face value it's decent but look under the script and it's horrible.

People are, I think, One or the other.

I think it's a horrible mess.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 17 December, 2017, 07:36:28 PM
Look, it's a f*cking mess.

Taken on face value it's decent but look under the script and it's horrible.

People are, I think, One or the other.

I think it's a horrible mess.

I also thought it was horrible mess, and provided completely unsatisfying closure to all of the potentially interesting mysteries that force awakens set up. I think that the treatment of luke skywalker was awful and a huge anticlimax. Sadly none of these things can be "fixed" in episode 9.......and the heroic luke of return of the jedi is lost to this very poor ending.

Why does everything in Disney star wars have to end so grimly? All three of the new star wars films so far have left me feeling down.

The end luke diversion sequence would have played out in a far more satisfying manner if actually had been there. Give me a bad ass luke sequence....make it an epic fight, and if he died at the end of it, then it would have been a memorable and heroic end. What I got here was luke pulling a trick. That's pretty much all he did in the whole film.   I waited 2 years for that?

Disappointed doesn't quite cover it. The rot started with Rebels for me, I mostly enjoyed force awakens ( except for the poor han solo decision), but rogue one and then this are hammering nails into the coffin. If Han Solo movie is another mess for me, then I will cut my losses with modern star wars, I'm just not enjoying it.......which is a depressing admission for a 40-year fan to admit.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 17 December, 2017, 07:51:05 PM
The FO couldn't nuke Craig from orbit cos they had a shield up, and the bombers had taken out their shield busting capability with the Dreadnought.

I'm assuming DJ snooped on the frequency Poe used. And two point of his sudden-yet-inevitable betrayal was to show that the galaxy of this time was full of bystanders who wouldn't help, in contrast to Han in ANH.

To read folk picking holes, you'd swear the plots of any previous SW made sense.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 17 December, 2017, 07:54:44 PM
Script/plot holes are certainly not my issue. I'm not overly bothered by that if I'm having a fun time.

My issues are with the treatment of almost every character in the film, and the universally disappointing (for me) resolution of the dangling threads from force awakens.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 17 December, 2017, 08:42:11 PM
The same when Luke calls it a laser sword - it jars a bit as if it's from someone talking about Star Wars rather than being a character inside it.

That's a solid prequel reference, though - L'I'll Ani recognises Qui-Gon because of his 'laser sword'. It's meant to evoke the outsider's perception of the Jedi.

As to the rest, yes you can see it that way, but i'd remind you about things like "dusting crops", "see you in hell", and "would it help if I got out and pushed?". All quite 20th Century idioms.

I don't see those as quite the same, If they'd said running on fumes, I could have gone with that -
 some phrases seem more universal than others. Gas just seemed too specifically American 20th century.

I didn't much like laser sword being used in the prequels either. But compared to the rest of the problems they had, that was minor.

And yes, Tarzan Chewie in ROTJ is duff as well.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 17 December, 2017, 10:09:58 PM
The end luke diversion sequence would have played out in a far more satisfying manner if actually had been there.

To me it all just seemed pretty clearly constructed that way because the director had decided how he wanted Luke's final scene to play out - staring at the dual sunset - and had to contrive a way to make it work with also having him save the day at the rebel base. It was a peculiar way to end it imo - didn't work for me at all.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 17 December, 2017, 10:22:35 PM
"Now that it's over, I can see that there were logical failings in that space wizard film, and this has negated the enjoyment I felt at the time."

There's a TV Tropes term I've never actually heard in the wild called "Fridge Logic", denoting something in a story that's perfectly fine as you're watching/reading, but after The Spell Of The Story is broken and you go grab something from the fridge, you go "hang on a minute (for example) there are many numerous ways Taylor could have realised he was on Earth all along, from Roman Latin-derived English as a spoken and written language widely in use, the climate, the stars, the fauna, horses..."
Fridge Logic is basically when the story is going well and keeping you entertained enough that it maintains the spell.  All you can really ask is that something keep you in the moment for the duration of its story, because, y'know, it's all just fiction, like.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JamesC 17 December, 2017, 10:40:58 PM
The weird force-projection stuff was something I think did work, both with the Rey / Kylo communication and Luke’s rouse.
While I thought Hamill was great, I really wanted Luke to do more throughout the film. I think it’s a shame we didn’t get to see him in the X-Wing one last time. I was half expecting him to blow up the ram-cannon by bullseying it with a proton torpedo.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Enigmatic Dr X 17 December, 2017, 10:42:35 PM
"Now that it's over, I can see that there were logical failings in that space wizard film, and this has negated the enjoyment I felt at the time."

There's a TV Tropes term I've never actually heard in the wild called "Fridge Logic", denoting something in a story that's perfectly fine as you're watching/reading, but after The Spell Of The Story is broken and you go grab something from the fridge, you go "hang on a minute (for example) there are many numerous ways Taylor could have realised he was on Earth all along, from Roman Latin-derived English as a spoken and written language widely in use, the climate, the stars, the fauna, horses..."
Fridge Logic is basically when the story is going well and keeping you entertained enough that it maintains the spell.  All you can really ask is that something keep you in the moment for the duration of its story, because, y'know, it's all just fiction, like.

I agree. But I found the plot holes so jarring that I lost all involvement in the plot while in my cinema seat.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 17 December, 2017, 10:42:46 PM
... the universally disappointing (for me) resolution of the dangling threads from force awakens.

Reading current interviews with Johnson, it seems clear that none of the mysteries in TFA ever had answers. It was just Abrams being Abrams, and Johnson just took a shot at moving on past it all. Personally I thought his Gordian Knot solution to Rey's parentage was the only one that could have worked, but it was still a bit disappointing.

At least one of Lucas' mysteries had a satisfying answer, even if he made that one up on the fly too.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: maryanddavid 17 December, 2017, 11:29:24 PM
Really enjoyed that.  A bit too long, and the odd bits like Del Toro seemed a bit pointless and the 'why didn't they drive the ship into the other in the first place before the escape pods were blown up' was annoying.
Nit picking aside great humour and action, and I suppose I don't have as much invested in the whole Star Wars franchise as others that I can be entertained by it and leave it at that. I had five with me from ages 9-15 and they all LOVED it, that's another couple of trilogies sorted so;)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Link Prime 17 December, 2017, 11:40:15 PM
Was it me, or was the whole thing a cartoon version of the Battlestar Galactica episode “33”?

Yes indeed! I had the same vibe.

The only difference being that '33' was a better scripted, well acted and superiorly executed slice of sci-fi action.

Hand on slightly broken heart, TLJ was the worst film I've seen in the cinema in years.

No melodramatic fanboy tantrum of course- I do realise, as with many other previously beloved entertainments, that I'm far (far) older and probably not the target audience anymore. C'est la vie.

Post script: I did learn the invaluable life lesson that the super rich are an evil nasty bunch.
Thanks for hammering that one home in the superfluous 45 minute sub plot, Hollywood.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Spaceghost 18 December, 2017, 08:05:21 AM
I loved this latest installment in the series of space adventure films for children. And so did my children.

Genuinely thought it was the best Star Wars since the original trilogy. Couldn't be happier about Rey's parentage, loved the interaction between Kylo Ren and Rey. Luke was fantastic. Exciting space battles and plot development.

The only bit I didn't like was Finn and Rose's pointless side mission, but otherwise, brilliant.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JamesC 18 December, 2017, 08:11:03 AM
I loved this latest installment in the series of space adventure films for children. And so did my children.

Genuinely thought it was the best Star Wars since the original trilogy. Couldn't be happier about Rey's parentage, loved the interaction between Kylo Ren and Rey. Luke was fantastic. Exciting space battles and plot development.

The only bit I didn't like was Finn and Rose's pointless side mission, but otherwise, brilliant.

This is like a post from a Dr Who thread - ‘it’s for children, so it doesn’t matter if it doesn’t make sense’. That does a disservice to the younglings.
Yes it was an enjoyable slice of crash, bang, wallop but it could have (and should have) been so much more.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 18 December, 2017, 08:21:18 AM
If it was just aimed at kids, I would argue we would not have had the original trilogy cast inclusion. These films are aged at the full range of Star Wars fans, not just kids.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Spaceghost 18 December, 2017, 09:16:43 AM
As I said though, I really enjoyed it and I'm 46.

I suppose it depends on what you expect from a new Star Wars film really. There were issues with the pacing here and there, and some of the humour felt forced. As I've said, one whole section could have basically been cut without it effecting the story, but it did more right than wrong in my eyes.

I don't really know what "It could have been so much more" means I suppose.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JamesC 18 December, 2017, 10:16:47 AM
As I said though, I really enjoyed it and I'm 46.

I suppose it depends on what you expect from a new Star Wars film really. There were issues with the pacing here and there, and some of the humour felt forced. As I've said, one whole section could have basically been cut without it effecting the story, but it did more right than wrong in my eyes.

I don't really know what "It could have been so much more" means I suppose.

I think small tweaks would have made a world of difference.
For example, the Star Destroyers just weren’t a threat at all. From the beginning scene it was made clear that you could fly almost across the bow of one with little danger.
Hux, likewise, was shown to be utterly undermined in every scene. The First Order fleet is supposed to be the main threat to the future of the reistance yet their ships are nerfed and their commander is a snotty nosed coward.
Now Snoke is dead and Kylo is in charge. A character we know to be unpredictable and dangerous in close quarters (though Rey can fight him to a standstill and he was almost bested by a handful of red guards) but who has been shown as a rather bad military commander.
I’d argue that in a basic goodies vs baddies story you need a credible threat.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Bolt-01 18 December, 2017, 10:25:47 AM
I'm prepared to be told I'm wrong here, but the Rose/Finn mission came about because Poe deliberately kept Laura Dern out of the loop, right?

Poe was demoted by Leia, and because he's a cocky fly-boy he put Derns nose out of joint so she told him to bugger off and leave the decisions to folks with more experience. So he (Poe) lets Rose & Finn pop off on on a maguffin hunt which if he'd been more mature and told Dern about she could have told him it was a waste of time, saving lives as then DJ wouldn't have ruined the cloaking of the escape...

So, a lot of this was on Poe, or did I miss something?

Oh, and I really enjoyed it. Thought the cast did a grand job.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Muon 18 December, 2017, 10:31:54 AM
It is true that the First Order seemed pretty incompetent in this film. The rebels were pretty shite at their jobs as well.

At the same time, it's easy to forget how ridiculous some of the stuff in the first movies was. I accepted it as a kid, but I remember my dad laughing his ass off at some of it or just getting bored and going out of the room to get a cup of tea.

Just off the top of my head, there's the cream of the Empire's troops failing to find a load of people hiding under some floorboards on the Millenium Falcon. Then there's the Falcon escaping with a load of space trash in the second movie. Then of course there's the Storm Troopers getting bested by some cute bears in ROTJ...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JamesC 18 December, 2017, 10:43:16 AM
It is true that the First Order seemed pretty incompetent in this film. The rebels were pretty shite at their jobs as well.

At the same time, it's easy to forget how ridiculous some of the stuff in the first movies was. I accepted it as a kid, but I remember my dad laughing his ass off at some of it or just getting bored and going out of the room to get a cup of tea.

Just off the top of my head, there's the cream of the Empire's troops failing to find a load of people hiding under some floorboards on the Millenium Falcon. Then there's the Falcon escaping with a load of space trash in the second movie. Then of course there's the Storm Troopers getting bested by some cute bears in ROTJ...

All true. The storm troopers were notoriously rubbish in the original films.
I think most people would agree that Vader and the Emperor were credible threats though.
As for the imperial navy it was made clear that the Star Destroyers could have wiped out the imperial fleet at the end of Jedi, but they were just trying to keep them from escaping while the emperor showed off his new weapon.
Also, the escape from Hoth was only possible because the transporter’s escape route was being covered by a planet based cannon. I think they did a good job of convincing the audience of the might of the Imperial forces while still having the rebels win.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Theblazeuk 18 December, 2017, 11:25:25 AM
I am a little confused by just how much everyone loves it, but it was just ok in my books with a lot of flaws (mainly in the superfluous plot that takes up 70% of the screen time, the continued retread of a past movie - Empire this team - and the 'twist' with Luke at the end that's completely undermined in the next minute). As much as I enjoyed stuff like the X-Wing taking on the capital ship, it set the tone for empty spectacle that continued throughout (e.g. the millenium falcon, one ship, is now able to distract an entire fleet's worth of air support)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 18 December, 2017, 12:54:48 PM
I enjoyed it, but can't fault alot of the issues here. One of my issues with both of the new ones (and to a lesser extent i think in Rogue One too?) is the way hyperspace is basically teleporting exactly wherever you need to be whenever you need to be, until the narrative says not. For some reason in the originals I had more of a sense of it taking time to get from A to B.

There was a slight sense of the in TLJ where we see

But you're right. In ANH Luke, Han, Chewie etc...have a good chat, play some games, do some training etc...


But how long does it take for a raven to get from North of the Eastwatch to Dragonstone?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 18 December, 2017, 01:13:51 PM
I thought it was pretty bad. Tons of clunky dialogue, unsatisfying plot cul-de-sacs in an overly long film and my god, what did they do with Skywalker?? He was completely neutered and squandered. Still too many riffs on scenes from the old films for me too, and some bad acting.. Daisy Ridley and Domhnall Gleeson being the main offenders. It was also trying to introduce and juggle too many characters I'd say. It was just a sprawling mess.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Dandontdare 18 December, 2017, 02:14:37 PM
Saw this yesterday and have just caught up on the last few pages of this thread - boy, there are some nit-picky grumps around here! Maybe I enjoyed it so much because I see it as (heresy) just a movie, and I'm not quite invested in "how I think it should be" as others

It does have faults and seemed a bit repetitive, but I think a lot of the problem is that there are too many characters that had to have some plot, whether it was needed or not. This instalment was all about Luke and his relationship to Ren and Rei, and to a lesser extent Leia, but so much of the plot involved pointless side-stories for Finn, Rose and Poe - I thought Rose was entirely superfluous, and I'd forgotten Poe even existed (what is he even in these films for, apart from a replacement "mouthy fly-boy" character?). Even so, the casino-heist section was entertaining enough in itself.(sidenote on Poe - he doesn't seem to bat an eyelid about all his dead and dying comrades but gets very emotional about his droid - weird)

There were more than enough great things to outweigh the plot holes however - I thought Hamill was superb and I loved the 3-version flashback of the end of the temple - didn't have any problems with Ridley as some seem to - she doesn't say much but I liked her simmering suppressed anger. The visuals and effects were as good as we've come to expect - Skelig Michael was a great location and the creatures were amazing (my favourites were the fishy caretakers)  I particularly like the way ships seem to just pop out of warp with a bang, and the depiction of what happens when you go to warp while pointed at another ship was really well done. Liked the smart way Snoke was taken out.

I was surprised that Leia survived - I assumed they would re-edit to show her dying in the final battle - expect a CGI heroic death in the next one
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: dweezil2 18 December, 2017, 02:44:02 PM
I thought it was pretty bad. Tons of clunky dialogue, unsatisfying plot cul-de-sacs in an overly long film and my god, what did they do with Skywalker?? He was completely neutered and squandered. Still too many riffs on scenes from the old films for me too, and some bad acting.. Daisy Ridley and Domhnall Gleeson being the main offenders. It was also trying to introduce and juggle too many characters I'd say. It was just a sprawling mess.

I'm normally a fan of Gleeson, but he seemed to be auditioning for panto in this.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Pyroxian 18 December, 2017, 02:57:22 PM
I was surprised that Leia survived - I assumed they would re-edit to show her dying in the final battle - expect a CGI heroic death in the next one

They've already said that they're not going to use her likeness (CG or otherwise) in ep IX. I'm hoping she'll just always be the general in the background - 'General Organa has given us orders to do blah' etc.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Theblazeuk 18 December, 2017, 03:15:17 PM
One thing about Star Wars is that yes, it's just a movie, but take it away from Star Wars and it becomes a really bad movie rather than a fun but flawed one.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Apestrife 18 December, 2017, 04:58:31 PM
Wish they'd simplified the threat a bit. For example making the fuel-gage into "lots of astroids in the area, which is why we need to tread lightly but still can move a bit faster than the first order and skipped the tracking stuff, and just gone for a tractor beam or whatever.. Also scenes like the prison break could'v benefitted from getting trimmed. For example if DJ-Toro showing them he has a key, then cut to them crawling up from a man hole in the stable. Go for moments instead of a bunch of move from A to B.

Regardless. I hope kids enjoy it as much as I enjoyed Star wars as a kid :)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 18 December, 2017, 05:18:14 PM
I was surprised that Leia survived - I assumed they would re-edit to show her dying in the final battle - expect a CGI heroic death in the next one

They've already said that they're not going to use her likeness (CG or otherwise) in ep IX. I'm hoping she'll just always be the general in the background - 'General Organa has given us orders to do blah' etc.

My guess is a decent time jump and a memorial service at the start of IX. Which I've just realised is 2 years away. Arse!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 18 December, 2017, 05:29:49 PM
Incidentally, I love the idea that the FO are somehow useless in this flick. From where I was sitting they recovered from losing their superweapon and obliterated the Resistance base with two shots, then over a day or two hunted down and destroyed their entire fleet, all their starfighters, Admiral Ackbar and all but a dozen of their members, exhausting Luke Skywalker to death in the process. At the end, Kylo Ren was unopposed Emo ruler of the galaxy Sounds a hell of a lot more success in a short time than the Empire ever managed.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 18 December, 2017, 05:31:27 PM
Wish they'd simplified the threat a bit. For example making the fuel-gage into "lots of astroids in the area, which is why we need to tread lightly but still can move a bit faster than the first order and skipped the tracking stuff, and just gone for a tractor beam or whatever.. Also scenes like the prison break could'v benefitted from getting trimmed. For example if DJ-Toro showing them he has a key, then cut to them crawling up from a man hole in the stable. Go for moments instead of a bunch of move from A to B.

I know what you mean - for me a lot of the issues I had with plot stuff are a result of simply too much plot. Imo it was overly complicated for what I feel should be a pretty straightforward A to B story - too many maguffins, too many characters etc to the point where I occasionally struggled to follow exactly what was happening at any one time and why, which isn't what I want to feel during a 'kid's space wizard movie'. It was overall badly in need of some paring down and streamlining, though that's a criticism I'd level at 90% of modern blockbuster/genre movies.

To be positive for a minute, having had a little more time to think it over, though I still have a lot of issues with the execution of the ending, I for one am really relieved that we didn't see Luke marching out into the battlefield, pulling down AT-ATs and slaughtering hundreds of Imperials in a blaze of glory. I know that's what a lot of fans wanted to see, and that would have been the easy way for the filmmakers to go, but I'm really glad they instead embraced the pacifist/spiritual side of Luke - and of the principles of the Jedi in general - to resolve the situation, which seemed so much more in keeping with the Luke of RotJ in my mind.

I've long had a major problem with how the prequels portrayed the Jedi as sort of campy lightsaber-twirling acrobats, whose abilities are drawn from a firmly established moveset of powers including Force Push™ and Force Lightning™. My perception of the Jedi as per the OT was that they are much more mystical, kind of zen warrior monk figures, who would only ever use violence as an absolute last resort, and are much more likely to use their enemies' own aggression to defeat them. If they go around solving every problem with the pointy end of a lightsaber, then what exactly separates them from the Dark Side? Imo one of the best things TLJ did was embrace this more spiritual, almost magical aspect of the Jedi.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 18 December, 2017, 05:37:46 PM
Spot on about Luke there. Here we see the Jedi genuinely using the Force for 'knowledge and defense' at long last, not to mention the ironic apotheosis of Luke's tendency to always look towards the horizon, his mind truly not on where he is. So much better and wilder than a my-Schwartz-is-bigger-than-yours beat down. As you probably know, the original ending to RotJ hado Ben's force-ghost protect Luke from Palp's lightning, fulfilling his promise to become 'more powerful' rather literally. Luke's solution was a more subtle realisation of this thread.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JamesC 18 December, 2017, 05:49:53 PM
Incidentally, I love the idea that the FO are somehow useless in this flick. From where I was sitting they recovered from losing their superweapon and obliterated the Resistance base with two shots, then over a day or two hunted down and destroyed their entire fleet, all their starfighters, Admiral Ackbar and all but a dozen of their members, exhausting Luke Skywalker to death in the process. At the end, Kylo Ren was unopposed Emo ruler of the galaxy Sounds a hell of a lot more success in a short time than the Empire ever managed.

Well the resistance are even worse than they are!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 18 December, 2017, 05:54:27 PM
Hmmm.  I didn't like that at all.
Some of it was stupid (Mary Poppins space Leia), some of it was superfluous (everything featuring Del Toro), some of was immersion-breaking (starting the film with a "Hold the line" joke whose punchline is "YO MOMMA"), and I got the impression that a lot of it was just reactive to criticism of TFA and second-guessing the expectations of fans, particularly Kylo's heel/face/heel schtick or Rey's parents being "nobodies".
Rose seemed okay until she turned into yet another avatar character for SW fandom, when arguably we already have Rey for that, but hey, at least it was worth Mark Hamill's time turning up - but poor old JJA is running out of OT characters to kill off in part 9, so expect to see Billy Dee Williams signed up for that any day now.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 18 December, 2017, 06:01:19 PM
Doubt we’ll see Lando, isn’t Billy Dee in his 80s now? He was looking pretty rough in an episode of Modern Family last time I saw him, and that was 5+ years ago.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 18 December, 2017, 06:07:23 PM
Just sat down in the cinema to watch this.

Shush now...

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JamesC 18 December, 2017, 06:16:23 PM
Hmmm.  I didn't like that at all.
Some of it was stupid (Mary Poppins space Leia), some of it was superfluous (everything featuring Del Toro), some of was immersion-breaking (starting the film with a "Hold the line" joke whose punchline is "YO MOMMA"), and I got the impression that a lot of it was just reactive to criticism of TFA and second-guessing the expectations of fans, particularly Kylo's heel/face/heel schtick or Rey's parents being "nobodies".
Rose seemed okay until she turned into yet another avatar character for SW fandom, when arguably we already have Rey for that, but hey, at least it was worth Mark Hamill's time turning up - but poor old JJA is running out of OT characters to kill off in part 9, so expect to see Billy Dee Williams signed up for that any day now.

Chewie, Threepio or Artoo?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Dandontdare 18 December, 2017, 07:28:58 PM
Just remembered another thought I had - In the middle of a desperate war and evacuation, why is one of the rebel commanders coming to work in an evening gown? Was she at a dinner dance when the baddies attacked and didn't have time to change?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 18 December, 2017, 08:14:18 PM
Guessing that it's so Poe's comment that he's surprised she's the vice-admiral doesn't come off as too Roger Moorish "A woman/raised eyebrow?" when he's been serving under Leia for a good few years.

Not sure it exactly works
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Pyroxian 18 December, 2017, 08:30:14 PM
Just remembered another thought I had - In the middle of a desperate war and evacuation, why is one of the rebel commanders coming to work in an evening gown? Was she at a dinner dance when the baddies attacked and didn't have time to change?

Well, if it worked for Mon Mothma...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 18 December, 2017, 09:35:48 PM
Well, that was more or less exactly as I expected. Cool ships, weird aliens, thin story, simple characters and loads of shit blowing up - just like every other SW film. Enjoyed it, thoroughly, for what it is.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Rusty 18 December, 2017, 11:59:26 PM
I thought it was pretty bad. Tons of clunky dialogue, unsatisfying plot cul-de-sacs in an overly long film and my god, what did they do with Skywalker?? He was completely neutered and squandered. Still too many riffs on scenes from the old films for me too, and some bad acting.. Daisy Ridley and Domhnall Gleeson being the main offenders. It was also trying to introduce and juggle too many characters I'd say. It was just a sprawling mess.

I'm normally a fan of Gleeson, but he seemed to be auditioning for panto in this.
Yeah, he came across as well over the top. Almost like he was in a stage play playing the part of a swashbuckling pirate. I blame the director for that, though, not Domhnall. He should have been told to reign it in a bit.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: PsychoGoatee 19 December, 2017, 09:04:16 AM
I dig the movie, lot of fun! For me the original trilogy will always be the trilogy, I look at these as their own thing, and for what it is, the 8th main Star Wars movie, and a new crew's take on it, I really enjoy it. And Poe is one cool dude.

I particularly wanted to post here that I was reminded of a classic Judge Dredd storyline, maybe somebody else mentioned it. The way Luke just knew Kylo was filled with darkness, reminded me of Dredd in The Judge Child's conclusion. And being reminded of Dredd is always good.

On Episode 9, I have high hopes JJ makes his most unique and satisfying movie yet, while living up to the saga, and hopefully the other writer's are up to snuff as well. "Another happy landing" I hope.  :D
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 19 December, 2017, 09:58:19 AM
He was similar in TFA - just imagined he was going for young Hitler to go with the Nuremberg Rally vibe of that scene in the film.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Spaceghost 19 December, 2017, 10:18:22 AM
I can't stop thinking about this film and how much I loved it. The themes of failure, bad decisions, coming to terms with things that went wrong. It's refreshing and interesting subject matter for Star Wars.

I've seen a lot of people taking issue with it from the stand point that it's not what they want or expect from a Star Wars film, which I find a bit odd. There's even a petition to get Disney to strike The Last Jedi from canon, push back Episode 9, and re-make Episode 8 the way these "fans" want it.

I mean...I can't imagine what is going on in the minds of these people.

I can fully understand why people wouldn't like the film. It does break from the established traditional Star Wars themes, and certain characters are shown to be less than perfect. These are the reasons I loved it.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 19 December, 2017, 10:31:42 AM
I love Star Wars and have done since seeing the first film in 1977.
I had all the figures and that's what I spent my 50 pence pocket money on (typically as soon as I got a raise in pocket money to 50p, enough to buy one figure, they raised the price of them to 55p).
My bestest ever Birthday was the year I received a Millenium Falcon and the cardboard Death Star. I also got some money and managed to finally track down the final figure of the initial 12 released, a Jawa, which was hard to find in those days (plenty of Leias and R2-D2s).
I saw all the films during their first run at the cinema and have collected untold amounts of copies of the films on VHS, DVD, and Blu ray.
I collected the comics from Dark Horse (of course I had a complete collection of Marvel Star Wars comics) and bought the Timothy Zahn novels in hardback, often importing them from the US and this was before Amazon existed and it was an expensive past time.

In regards to The Last Jedi I avoided all the trailers, even closing my eyes and putting my hands over my ears when they were screened, without warning, in the cinema (and no doubt looking like a gimp in the process). I loved The Force Awakens and thought Rogue One was my favourite SW film ever. So it pains me to have disliked The Last Jedi so much.

I was due to see it again on Sunday but I just could not bear it. I might go this week as my Son finishes school today.

So I went into it not expecting much. Just some good old fashioned Star Wars fun. And I got disappointed.

But it's here and it is what it is. Some of it is fantastic. That opening 20 minutes was exhilarating and the ending (bar that cloying coda) was fun too (Although I do wish they had left the film on a cliff hanger just as Luke was seemingly being destroyed under a barrage of AT-AT lasers. That would have been fun.

So, I don't know what to tell you. I am the audience for this film and it fell flat as a pancake for me. As for traditional...Rogue One is a large departure from the Star Wars norm imo and that's my favourite.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Spaceghost 19 December, 2017, 10:40:01 AM

So I went into it not expecting much. Just some good old fashioned Star Wars fun. And I got disappointed.


This illustrates my point exactly. I think a lot of people disliked it because it wasn't Star Warsy enough. Or at least it didn't fit with what they think Star Wars ought to be.

That's a perfectly valid reason for disliking it by the way, I'm not trying to belittle anyone's opinion. You enjoyed Rogue One, I didn't, I enjoyed The Last Jedi, you didn't. At least we both got Star Wars films that we enjoyed.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Link Prime 19 December, 2017, 10:42:15 AM
There seems to be something more to the negative reaction than before (I mean with the poorly regarded prequels, Ep VII etc).
From my personal circle of friends & family, the general consensus for about 75% of them was that it was a boring clusterf*ck.
I know three life long Star Wars fans who have simply shrugged and claimed they just don't like Star Wars anymore after seeing it. Same for me.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 19 December, 2017, 12:01:47 PM
It is pretty funny to see Star Wars fans being painted as "gatekeepers" and the enemy of the thing they've loved and kept alive.  I guess you're never too old to learn that brand loyalty is a one-way street.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 19 December, 2017, 12:41:47 PM
From my personal circle of friends & family, the general consensus for about 75% of them was that it was a boring clusterf*ck.

yeah absolutely true for me too. It's got nothing to do with it defying what star wars should be, and I've not exactly been a rabid star wars fan since I was a kid (the prequels took the sheen off for me). Episode 7 and Rogue One were far from perfect but I enjoyed them overall, this film was just too bad! Vasquez reference not intended.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JamesC 19 December, 2017, 01:30:26 PM
I’ve made it clear that I have some problems with TLJ but it was still fun and to say some people’s reactions are bizarre is an understatement.
Petitioning to have the film struck from the canon? Get a life!
 Don’t get all this ‘I don’t know if I can bring myself to go back for another viewing’ (if you didn’t emjoy it, don’t go!) or ‘I’m done with Star Wars’. Just accept that there are Star Wars stories you like and Star Wars stories you don’t like. They’ll be making these things for years so it’s pretty likely you’ll watch and enjoy one again in the future.

And to balance out my criticisms I have to say, I really like Kylo Ren. I think he’s a really interesting character. Having someone that unpredictable and unstable in charge of all that power is terrifying!
Someone should definitely buy him a pet. He has love to give but has trust issues (who can blame him).
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 19 December, 2017, 01:48:32 PM
That petition is truly bizarre, surely the perfect definition of a First World Problem. I can't wait for someone to complain about something inconsequential so they can be accused of "striking the eighth."

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Link Prime 19 December, 2017, 01:53:25 PM
No petition is going to work of course, and I'd say 99.99% of the people signing it are aware of that.
If a few nerds wanna give an ineffectual middle finger to Disney then let em at it.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 19 December, 2017, 02:05:29 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Disney was behind this petition, or at least encouraging it from the shadows, because it keeps people talking about the film. There's no such thing as bad publicity.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 19 December, 2017, 02:06:37 PM
Don’t get all this ‘I don’t know if I can bring myself to go back for another viewing’ (if you didn’t emjoy it, don’t go!)

Ah if it was only that simple.
I've seen plenty of films that have, on the first viewing, not impressed only to find that on subsequent viewings the film has layers that I did not notice the first time.

The person I saw TLJ with watched it seven hours earlier and was not impressed only to discover he loved it on the second viewing.

Films are not like books where you can adjust the pace of how information is delivered. Although I think I went in with no expectations I could be kidding myself.

I think if a large body of people are going to spend millions of dollars and two years of their time on something I have liked in the past I think it deserves every chance.

The fact I have a Cineworld unlimited card helps in that it's only going to be my time that I investing in a second viewing.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 19 December, 2017, 02:08:41 PM

And to balance out my criticisms I have to say, I really like Kylo Ren. I think he’s a really interesting character.

I agree with this and think that there are lots of interesting characters. My main disappointment was how these characters were treated by the script, Finn especially.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Link Prime 19 December, 2017, 02:11:24 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Disney was behind this petition, or at least encouraging it from the shadows, because it keeps people talking about the film.

I'd like a Mod to check if Sharky's forum account has somehow been hacked.
Some loon on here spouting bonkers conspiracy theories. 

;)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 19 December, 2017, 02:23:59 PM
I didn't say they were, I said I wouldn't be surprised. Putting forward a negative view in order to counter it with positives isn't a rare tactic and big companies like Disney have plenty of smart advertising people capable of and willing to take a thing like this silly petition and turn it to their advantage.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 19 December, 2017, 02:30:36 PM
That's still a tall order surely. I cant think of any cases of a company promoting a negative view of their product in a non-tongue-in-cheek tone myself and even then its rare (marmite?). Recently there was a lot of bad publicity around Battlefront 2 and Disney didn't react like they didn't think bad publicity was a problem
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Spaceghost 19 December, 2017, 02:38:56 PM
I think we're WELL past the old "No publicity is bad publicity" maxim in these days of social media.

This is clearly a petition started and supported by blubbering, entitled man-babies.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 19 December, 2017, 02:43:37 PM
I would argue that a lot of recent films have manufactured outrage in order to deflect from their objective problems - The Dark Tower, for example, as well as the Ghostbusters remake.
Star Trek Discovery's high aggregate scores with critics are presented as proof that any dissenting opinion is from "Star Trek gatekeepers" in the fandom who despise change and/or diversity, much as Russel T Davies was claiming back in the day about Nu Who, and the producers of Stargate Universe, and more recently I think I've heard this argument in relation to another huge sci-fi franchise whose name escapes me at the moment, etc...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 19 December, 2017, 02:48:35 PM
I didn't say the company was supporting the negative view, I said they might be encouraging it by first acknowledging that it exists and then taking the opportunity to respond to it with a positive spin. It gives them an excuse to explain why they think their product is so good in a more interesting and engaging context than just advertising blurbs and puff pieces.

I have no idea about the conversation surrounding the aforementioned game but it seems there was a conversation which would encourage certain demographics to buy the game and "decide for themselves." Fans of the product will likely buy it anyway but non-fans might be encouraged to buy it because of the controversy. An entire ad campaign wouldn't rest on this kind of strategy, of course, but it might Hoover up a few thousand extra sales.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 19 December, 2017, 02:55:29 PM
With the game Bob Iger himself rang up EA for a bit of crisis management and the offending micro-transaction system was taken offline post-haste. They definitely weren't into the bad publicity. I heard a radio programme recently where they said RyanAir might have its most profitable year this year, even with all that mess about mismanagement and cancelled flights. An expert was saying that bad publicity just bounces off RyanAir because they haven't got a good brand to ruin, Disney is in the exact opposite situation I'd say.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 19 December, 2017, 03:04:39 PM
This is an interesting piece. IT CONTAINS SPOILERS!
I did not write it or have anything to do with it, I just think it's interesting in the context of this thread.

https://filmschoolrejects.com/disliking-the-last-jedi/?utm_content=buffer729db&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 19 December, 2017, 03:18:16 PM
Ah, so the game thing was an actual, physical problem with one of the systems. This silly petition is a different kind of problem requiring a different kind of response.

Anyway, I enjoyed TLJ and that's all that really matters to me. I've enjoyed all the Star Wars films to a greater or lesser degree and this new one gave me the same level of enjoyment. Sure, it's not perfect but then, in my view, none of them are.

My thoughts on advertising strategies, whether they be correct, partially correct or incorrect are just derailing the thread - for which I apologise.

Looking forward to Episode IX!

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 19 December, 2017, 03:37:17 PM
This is an interesting piece. IT CONTAINS SPOILERS!
I did not write it or have anything to do with it, I just think it's interesting in the context of this thread.

https://filmschoolrejects.com/disliking-the-last-jedi/?utm_content=buffer729db&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Good read. Only 145 people have signed that government petition linked in the article, I don't think its a big movement.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: karlos 19 December, 2017, 03:45:15 PM
Saw TLJ last night.  Full disclosure: I hated TFA and didn't think much of Rogue One.

Sadly, I didn't like this one much more.

The above article hits the nail on the head for me, well worth reading.

I did like the porgs, though.  I'm not made of stone.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 19 December, 2017, 03:56:04 PM

I did like the porgs, though.  I'm not made of stone.

I'm with Chewbacca on this one. Initially, anyway  :)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 19 December, 2017, 03:56:36 PM
This is an interesting piece. IT CONTAINS SPOILERS!
I did not write it or have anything to do with it, I just think it's interesting in the context of this thread.

https://filmschoolrejects.com/disliking-the-last-jedi/?utm_content=buffer729db&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Good read. Only 145 people have signed that government petition linked in the article, I don't think its a big movement.

I had a bigger movement this morning tbh.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Link Prime 19 December, 2017, 04:05:38 PM
"Size matters not" (says 12500 Wookie-babies) http://chn.ge/2BzX2L4
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 19 December, 2017, 04:44:04 PM
I think the reason the film has been so divisive is pretty clear - a lot of people just didn't get on with the style and tone of it. The 4th wall breaking/self parodic humour, the self referential tone etc. Even stylistically/aesthetically, things like the camera work, the inclusion of slo mo and the lack of wipes* just had the overall effect of making it not really feel like a SW movie to me, personally. Understand totally that many people will like it for these very reasons, but I expect a certain particular style and tone from a  SW movie, and this film diverged a little too far from it for my tastes. Each to their own, but I don't really want Star Wars films to be 'about' Star War films, if that makes any sense?

I presumed that point of the 'Anthology' films was so they could be more experimental with style and genre within the SW universe, while keeping the mainline 'saga' films more traditional in feel. From the look of things they are back-pedalling in this a bit.

I dunno, I'm probably reading too much into it.

*They don't seem to use the traditional scene transition wipes much in this one - or am I totally misremembering this?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 19 December, 2017, 04:47:16 PM
I must say also, I've been amused to see various online think-pieces trying to 'explain' the backlash to TLJ. Like, maybe some people just didn't the film all that much?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 19 December, 2017, 04:49:30 PM
I don't recall many wipes - there was slow mo of a sort in TESB, in the cave.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 19 December, 2017, 04:59:07 PM
That was more of a slow shutter speed type thing wasn't it?

Oh, also the inclusion of flashbacks - which IIRC is another break with the traditional SW style?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 19 December, 2017, 05:00:34 PM
@Link_Prime They should tell the 145 other people it might push them over the line and get this thing cancelled! :D

Personally even with some tones and humour we're perhaps not used to seeing in Star Wars, it looked and felt like a Star Wars movie the vast majority of the time. It was the writing that scuppered it

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 19 December, 2017, 05:03:53 PM
That was more of a slow shutter speed type thing wasn't it?

Oh, also the inclusion of flashbacks - which IIRC is another break with the traditional SW style?

More slowing it down to 12fps or something rather than shooting high speed and played back at 24fps.

Yeah, pretty sure flashbacks are a new thing - think there was a timelapse in the Rey/Luke scene as well?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 19 December, 2017, 05:06:33 PM
People don't like TLJ because they're gatekeepers and thus whiny man-babies: such is my understanding of the narrative being promulgated by social media.
As I mentioned above, it's a tried and tested way of dissociating the product from objective criticism by making all criticism seemingly irrational in origin, and possibly even painting the studio as brave for standing up to those against a progressive social ideology.
On another level, it could also be argued to stigmatise sci-fi fans by presenting them as opposed to the hopes and dreams of little girls who look up to Leia or Ray - again, a tried and tested narrative from the PR campaign for the Ghostbusters remake - despite sci-fi fans (in their own faltering, clumsy ways) having pulled for diversity since the 1960s.  With the TLJ hubbub, it seems like there's a conscious effort to paint Star Wars/sci-fi fans as the enemy of progress, while unquestioning and compliant consumers are the only ones who really "get it."

I presumed that point of the 'Anthology' films was so they could be more experimental with style and genre within the SW universe, while keeping the mainline 'saga' films more traditional in feel. From the look of things they are back-pedalling in this a bit.

Now this is just me, but I assumed the anthology films were to hoover up the "Star Wars knock off" cash.  Back when Star Wars first came out, there were tons of knock-offs, usually missing the tone or point of SW, but still making plenty of money and some still being remembered to this day - Battle Beyond the Stars, Star Crash, etc.  I think Disney just want to have their cake and eat it.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Link Prime 19 December, 2017, 05:27:21 PM
while unquestioning and compliant consumers are the only ones who really "get it."

That's the thing- there's nothing to 'get'.
No particular cognizance is required to understand the narrative as presented- or why it just didn't work for some (perhaps many) viewers.

If Johnson assumed that the majority of Star Wars fans would be satisfied to see Luke Skywalker roll over and die like a Buckfast addled old tramp, he must have ingested too much space-walrus tit mucus on his last trip to Skellig Michael.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 19 December, 2017, 05:56:45 PM
I remember there was a similarly hilarious 'petition' to force WB to release 'Zak Snyder's cut' of Justice League. All it did was show how utterly naive and clueless the people signing it are about film production - as if WB have an intact and complete Snyder cut sitting on the shelf somewhere.  :lol:
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 19 December, 2017, 06:08:20 PM
Just to be clear on my opinion, I'm not buying this whole strange "it was different from other star wars". It wasn't at all.

The problem was that it wasn't a good film, it's narrative was a mess, it pissed up the wall every potentially good storyline and it treated it's characters almost universally poorly.

Nothing to do with this weird "not star wars" thing.....christ it lifted scene after scene from star wars.

Still hate it 😁
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 19 December, 2017, 06:20:50 PM
Anybody watch RedLetterMedia? Their review is out now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9hwGZFPSmw

A Plinkett episode on it would be fun
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Dr Feeley Good 19 December, 2017, 06:22:08 PM
Same here...dreadful film
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Rusty 19 December, 2017, 06:23:52 PM
I think I might just keep any thoughts about TLJ and post them here if or when appropriate. Other forums I frequent are certainly far more divided and a bit more combative in defending what was essentially a bag of rusty old spanners of a film. It really isn't worth getting into a tiff over. To think I've actually had condescending and patronising responses to me thinking that Leia's space superwoman scene was a laughable old load of bollocks says it all, really.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 19 December, 2017, 06:28:01 PM
It really isn't worth getting into a tiff over.

Spot on. I'm not a fan of it overall but there are parts I adore.

It's a film.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: jacob g 19 December, 2017, 06:36:10 PM
Best Star Wars movie since 1980.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Spaceghost 19 December, 2017, 07:09:26 PM
I'm going to have to come to terms with the fact that I'm wrong, an idiot, or both, because I thought it was fantastic.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 19 December, 2017, 07:18:25 PM
It's really bad, on a whole new scale.

Just watched this.........absolutely spot on.

https://youtu.be/ZQ8ir66M5XU
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 19 December, 2017, 07:37:04 PM
I'd forgotten about the 'the capitalists are the real evil' bit
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Rusty 19 December, 2017, 07:45:05 PM
I hadn't thought about the weaponizing a spaceship via jumping through another at light speed. That literally breaks the entire series in one fell swoop. Well, almost. It reminds me of the meme's depicting the plans to blow up the Death Star, and the last frame shows a ship hyper jumping through it to blow it up. Seriously, this film feels like it was made to poke fun of the entire fanbase and lore of the originals the more you break it down.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: jacob g 19 December, 2017, 07:56:56 PM
Seriously, this film feels like it was made to poke fun of the entire fanbase and lore of the originals the more you break it down.

Yes, and it's great.

The same goes with influences behind SW. Even if we put aside The Bridge on the River Kwai and Three outlaw samurai influences Johnson adressed before, he manage to go full Kurosawa in many scenes (like Ran) because Star Wars means nothing without him.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 19 December, 2017, 07:57:17 PM
I'd forgotten about the 'the capitalists are the real evil' bit

Weapons dealers and war profiteers specifically, no? Not that there isn't a strong argument for the former interpretation.

I don't see how this is a problem, or at least any more of an over-simplification than 'galactic Nazis are evil'.  Was it not interesting to see the backdrop to all this, what the folks that aren't crime-lords, bounty hunters or barflys (sometimes literally) are up to while the bad guys and the good guys are killing each other?

In presenting Finn (a man who up to a few days previously had only ever been a soldier/janitor) with a third way, 'don't join in', I thought the whole Canto Bight/DJ sidetrip was a great idea, and gorgeous to boot.  A nice thematic parallel to Rey's journey too.


I'm going to have to come to terms with the fact that I'm wrong, an idiot, or both, because I thought it was fantastic.

That makes two of us.  Flawed, challenging, but fantastic. 
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Rusty 19 December, 2017, 07:59:32 PM
Seriously, this film feels like it was made to poke fun of the entire fanbase and lore of the originals the more you break it down.

Yes, and it's great.

The same goes with influences behind SW. Even if we put aside The Bridge on the River Kwai and Three outlaw samurai influences Johnson adressed before, he manage to go full Kurosawa in many scenes (like Ran) because Star Wars means nothing without him.
Yeah, I'm fine with that. I just wish it was a better constructed film, though.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 19 December, 2017, 08:07:36 PM
I hadn't thought about the weaponizing a spaceship via jumping through another at light speed. That literally breaks the entire series in one fell swoop. Well, almost. It reminds me of the meme's depicting the plans to blow up the Death Star, and the last frame shows a ship hyper jumping through it to blow it up.

When I went to see The Force Awakens, the bit where the chasm separates Ray and Ren made the audience groan and tut and someone loudly said "ah yer fuckin jokin", and a similar thing happened with TLJ when Laura Dern martyred herself and claimed her rightful reward of 72 virgins (all Star Wars fanboys) at the right hand of Allah.  Someone in the audience could clearly be heard saying "why don't they just fuckin do that all the time?" when the audio dropped.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 19 December, 2017, 08:08:38 PM
That was more of a slow shutter speed type thing wasn't it?

Oh, also the inclusion of flashbacks - which IIRC is another break with the traditional SW style?

More slowing it down to 12fps or something rather than shooting high speed and played back at 24fps.

Yeah, pretty sure flashbacks are a new thing - think there was a timelapse in the Rey/Luke scene as well?

In the Dagobah cave sequence the editor had each frame optically duplicated and then spliced-in each extra frame beside itself so it created a strobing effect.

There is the force-back vision in The Force Awakens which amounted to a flashback.

The one in The Last Jedi seems like it's another Kurosawa influence by invoking Rashōmon and its multi-perspective telling of the same incident in fragments from a certain point of view each time - thereby making the literal text of Star Wars visual.



: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Rusty 19 December, 2017, 08:49:36 PM

When I went to see The Force Awakens, the bit where the chasm separates Ray and Ren made the audience groan and tut and someone loudly said "ah yer fuckin jokin", and a similar thing happened with TLJ when Laura Dern martyred herself and claimed her rightful reward of 72 virgins (all Star Wars fanboys) at the right hand of Allah.  Someone in the audience could clearly be heard saying "why don't they just fuckin do that all the time?" when the audio dropped.
:lol: That should have been a line in the film.

It's a similar deal with the Millenium Falcon at this stage. I overheard someone saying about why don't the NO (was going to write Empire there) just build a fleet of the bastards. It's practically a deus ex machina now in that it conveniently shows up when the plot needs it, and it can't be blown up.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 19 December, 2017, 09:19:36 PM
Weapons dealers and war profiteers specifically, no? Not that there isn't a strong argument for the former interpretation.

I don't see how this is a problem, or at least any more of an over-simplification than 'galactic Nazis are evil'.  Was it not interesting to see the backdrop to all this, what the folks that aren't crime-lords, bounty hunters or barflys (sometimes literally) are up to while the bad guys and the good guys are killing each other?

It's not the end of the world but it undermines the First Order and the old Empire's scary image a little bit to think of them getting their AT-STs on finance and being beholden to weaselly money men, when I guess I thought they took what they wanted, conquered worlds and built their own war machines with the resources and economies they controlled.

But mainly the problem was to me that it was a huge new concept introduced flippantly and then unexplored, in an already messy film.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 19 December, 2017, 09:41:46 PM
Seems like a perfectly logical in-universe duality idea to me. Arms manufacturers/dealers sell weapons to both sides just as the Force bestows power on both sides. Good and evil being two sides of the same coin, as it were. I think it also ties in with Luke and Yoda's decision to end the Jedi - without the Jedi there's no need for a Sith (etc.) - and the apparent evolution of the Force as a power available to everyone, or at least stable boys. Destroy the eternal Good vs. Evil conflict and the arms industry loses much of its wealth and power, wealth and power that can be diverted towards more constructive projects like Life Stars and X-Wing Tractors.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 19 December, 2017, 09:48:56 PM
It's definitely not illogical, that can be the way it works if they want to write it that way. Certainly how our culture works here on Earth.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 19 December, 2017, 09:52:27 PM
But mainly the problem was to me that it was a huge new concept introduced flippantly and then unexplored, in an already messy film.

None of the key concepts introduced in ANY of the SW films have been explored - on screen at least.  That's one of the things that makes thinking about it so much fun (40 years and counting). Force ample, I've been pondering it for decades now, and unlike Han I still have no clue how the Force works. Even less of clue now!

It is a messy and uneven film, no questions, but there's so many new things in there that it'll keep me entertained for years. The absence of this wide-open novelty was my only real gripe with TFA, so despite having plenty of issues with aspects of TLJ, I'm pretty darned pleased.

I wanted new Star Wars, not more of the Star Wars I already have. And boy did I get it.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 19 December, 2017, 09:54:40 PM
So why don't the Rebels buy their own Ultra Mega Super Star Destroyers?  Leia's a princess, she's minted.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 19 December, 2017, 09:57:50 PM
Send Luke in to blag a sweet deal with the force
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 19 December, 2017, 10:00:12 PM
So why don't the Rebels buy their own Ultra Mega Super Star Destroyers?  Leia's a princess, she's minted.

Princess of an asteroid field! 

Logic can't really be applied to any SW film, but i'd say Rogue One is the biggest offender: why did Vader and Tarkin focus all their efforts on cracking Leia, when every single Rebel captured at Scarif or on the Tantive IV knew where the hidden base was?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 19 December, 2017, 10:15:15 PM
Star Wars has never really made much sense. I don't watch it for sense, though, I watch it for spectacle.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 19 December, 2017, 10:17:15 PM
Princess of an asteroid field! 

The 1% hoard their wealth in tax havens.

As for Rogue One: there weren't any prisoners from Scarif, they got killed by the Death Star.  Vader done for everyone else.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: jacob g 19 December, 2017, 10:19:10 PM
every single Rebel captured at Scarif or on the Tantive IV knew where the hidden base was?

It's hard to catch rebels on Scarif when whole complex was destroyed by Death Star.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: shaolin_monkey 19 December, 2017, 10:31:52 PM
Interestingly, I recall a whole episode in one of the classic Star Wars comics, where Vader and Leia bump into each on a neutral planet negotiating with a dealer to build more spacecraft - TIEs and X-Wings respectively. So the whole arms trade thing has been covered in an off-shoot (probably non-canon) of the original trilogy.

If I recall, weapons were not permitted on this planet, but Leia had a weapon hidden in her diplomatic pouch. Not that it’s relevant at all.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 19 December, 2017, 10:43:58 PM
I would've loved a scene of Snoke on the phone to the insurers after the dreadnought got blown up. Driver error my arse you Bothan slags

Interestingly, I recall a whole episode in one of the classic Star Wars comics, where Vader and Leia bump into each on a neutral planet negotiating with a dealer to build more spacecraft - TIEs and X-Wings respectively. So the whole arms trade thing has been covered in an off-shoot (probably non-canon) of the original trilogy.

That's just jogged my memory, when I was a kid I had a star wars encyclopedia type book that talked about a company that made ships for the Empire, pretty sure they were taken over by the Empire completely though, they didn't remain an independent entity. I think this book claimed that they also designed the X-Wing, and rebel sympathisers in the company smuggled out the plans to the rebels before the Empire got their hands on them. All non-canon I'm sure, especially with the Disney purge.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 19 December, 2017, 11:03:02 PM
Star Wars has never really made much sense. I don't watch it for sense, though, I watch it for spectacle.

It hasn't 'made sense' in the sense that it's a fantasy story and has fantastical elements, but aside from a couple of much-discussed plot wrinkles or contrivances (the fact that the timeline of events during ESB doesn't really stack up, the Luke/Leia connection being clearly made up on the fly etc etc) and ignoring retroactive plot holes introduced by the prequels, I kinda dispute this revisionist notion that the original trilogy is somehow nonsensical or full of plot holes. And to dismiss them as merely 'spectacle' is to miss the point of what has made them so special and enduring, imo. Lots of films offer spectacle.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 19 December, 2017, 11:14:51 PM
Also, if you're not supposed to think about films after you watch them, where does that leave movies like 2001, Memento, or The Shining?  Is it that you're only supposed to think about certain films after you've watched them?
If so, is there some kind of database online where I can check if I'm allowed to ask questions about a film I've just watched?  Or is there a note at the start or end of films that I should look out for in future so I know I should just sit there and let the film wash over me like urine across the face of one of Little Richard's hookers?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 19 December, 2017, 11:16:00 PM
every single Rebel captured at Scarif or on the Tantive IV knew where the hidden base was?

It's hard to catch rebels on Scarif when whole complex was destroyed by Death Star.

AT Scarif, not on it.  There were more than a few Rebels in orbit.  Including the crew of the Profundity and anyone else who survived the shield-gate battle.    And the crew of the Tantive IV, who we saw being captured in large numbers in ANH, and which was docked with the Profundity, which came directly from Yavin, as did Blue and Red squadrons. 

Rogue One establishes that the Yavin IV base was no kind of a secret.  Which makes a nonsense of ANH in a way which lightspeed ramming manoeuvres can only dream of.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 19 December, 2017, 11:19:55 PM
Also, if you're not supposed to think about films after you watch them, where does that leave movies like 2001, Memento, or The Shining?  Is it that you're only supposed to think about certain films after you've watched them?
If so, is there some kind of database online where I can check if I'm allowed to ask questions about a film I've just watched?  Or is there a note at the start or end of films that I should look out for in future so I know I should just sit there and let the film wash over me like urine across the face of one of Little Richard's hookers?

'Course you're supposed to think about films.  An indeed be disappointed in them (Ask me about Revenge of the Shit!).

But while I've spent countless hours worrying away at SW details, it doesn't really prevent my enjoyment of them: otherwise I'd have given up when Han and Luke still had their boots on under that Stormtrooper armour.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 19 December, 2017, 11:32:26 PM
Triple post:  I suppose what I'm dancing around is a suspicion that all this (justifiable) jumping on plot holes is an ex post facto reaction to disliking the movie.  When you like a movie, you jump over the holes - or at least have fun jumping int0 them.  Any of which is fine.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 20 December, 2017, 12:52:30 AM
Star Trek 5 and Batman and Robin are a couple of my favorite movies and I like this idea that I have no criticisms of them, but it is sadly not the case.  I have shit on loads of films I liked, just as I've played devil's advocate for films I hated.
Keeping it Star Warsy, the Prequels now come somewhere between these two states.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 20 December, 2017, 01:05:16 AM
Surely. And I didn't mean to suggest that I (or anyone) don't have piles of criticisms of films I (or they) enjoy, and still enjoy them. Quite the reverse. Big fan of STV:TFF here too, even though much of the second act is rubbish.

I just suspect that things like (for example) modified freighters flying through the superstructure of a superweapon more easily than agile starlfighters seem to bother people less than the same freighters flying through a twisty mine more easily than agile starfighters, and I suspect there may be an underlying reason and that reason may not be the application of objective logic.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: dyl 20 December, 2017, 01:49:15 AM
I think that there are different types of plot hole though, yes some films can be taken apart after the fact and shown to have plot holes, like Raiders and the way that Indy makes almost no difference to the outcome of the film. This doesn't matter to the film though as you're not aware of it. The stuff I have a problem with in a lot of modern films is that the plot holes/ lack of internal logic are glaringly obvious while you're watching the film. I'll often be thinking eh? Why are they doing that and there'll usually be some clunky explanation trotted out by the characters.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 20 December, 2017, 02:24:31 AM
I think that there are different types of plot hole though, yes some films can be taken apart after the fact and shown to have plot holes, like Raiders and the way that Indy makes almost no difference to the outcome of the film. This doesn't matter to the film though as you're not aware of it.

It's true it doesn't matter because story is more important than plot but I don't think it can really be considered a plot hole and it tidily plays into the logic of a story about men messing with 'godly and unholy things' they don't understand - resulting in the best use of a literal deus ex machina to resolve the story, as only a god can.

A nerdy professor may be forgiven for being out of his depth when battling Nazis and Old Testament gods but like us he's really only along for the adventure, plus he is the only one who figured out how to accurately located the ark.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: dyl 20 December, 2017, 02:48:31 AM
I know, bad example. Was just trying to say that the stuff that bugs me are the plot holes right in your face as you watch the film.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 20 December, 2017, 02:55:38 AM
It's never bad when there's an excuse to bring up the brilliance of Raiders.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 20 December, 2017, 06:26:25 AM
It's never bad when there's an excuse to bring up the brilliance of Raiders.

Greatest film ever made 😊
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 20 December, 2017, 06:42:04 AM
Also, if you're not supposed to think about films after you watch them, where does that leave movies like 2001, Memento, or The Shining?  Is it that you're only supposed to think about certain films after you've watched them?
If so, is there some kind of database online where I can check if I'm allowed to ask questions about a film I've just watched?  Or is there a note at the start or end of films that I should look out for in future so I know I should just sit there and let the film wash over me like urine across the face of one of Little Richard's hookers?

I said I watch Star Wars for spectacle because that's how I derive the most pleasure from them. Picking them apart afterwards is, to me, a lesser pleasure. For example, I'd rather enjoy the battle to destroy the Death Star on-screen than moan about why the Rebels don't bolt hyperdrives to a couple of asteroids to create missiles with phenomenal amounts of kinetic energy, or why the Empire even needs a Death Star when they could bolt hyperdrives to a couple of even bigger asteroids to destroy planets with because the answer is, "who cares? Just watch the exciting damned dogfight!" If I watched the Star Wars fairy tales for sense, I'd be as miserable as all those Reymoaners out there. I watch them for spectacle, which is why  I'm happy with them.

You, of course, watch Star Wars for your reasons.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mikey 20 December, 2017, 09:12:25 AM
I'm going to have to come to terms with the fact that I'm wrong, an idiot, or both, because I thought it was fantastic.

That makes two of us.  Flawed, challenging, but fantastic.

Me three. I bloody loved every second of it after expecting to have at least some parts I didn't enjoy after seeing some (what I rightly suspected as manbaby) grumbles about it online. Also: Lorna Derne. Consider me swooned!

One of the things I saw complaints about was the humour - my take is that there is no way Star Wars films can't be kinda aware of themselves and not taking themselves too seriously being such an ingrained pop culture reference. I chuckled, what can I say?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tiplodocus 20 December, 2017, 10:23:52 AM
I know, bad example. Was just trying to say that the stuff that bugs me are the plot holes right in your face as you watch the film.

He makes no difference to the Ark, sure. But he makes a big difference to Marion. That's the story!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tiplodocus 20 December, 2017, 10:27:35 AM

If I recall, weapons were not permitted on this planet, but Leia had a weapon hidden in her diplomatic pouch. Not that it’s relevant at all.

I remember that. Technically it wasn't a weapon which is how she got it by the scanners. It was a gravity multiplier of some sort and, because the writer didn't under stand how gravity worked, it zapped Vader (or was it a different baddie) down a big hole in the ground (like digging to Australia)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 20 December, 2017, 12:22:50 PM
....all those Reymoaners out there....

I'll gladly accept that as a Christmas present.  Wonderful.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 20 December, 2017, 12:27:57 PM
I know, bad example. Was just trying to say that the stuff that bugs me are the plot holes right in your face as you watch the film.

He makes no difference to the Ark, sure. But he makes a big difference to Marion. That's the story!

S'right.  But even beyond that, despite claiming it's all about fortune and glory, Indy is in it to learn the truth, which is the one thing he succeeds at finding in each of the four movies (painfully spelled out at the end of Crystal Skull, but no less true for that).  Frustrating the plans of Nazis, as the enemies of truth, is almost collateral damage.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 20 December, 2017, 12:37:50 PM
Sign the petition to force Disney to reshoot The Last Jedi and fix all its problems. (https://www.change.org/p/reshoot-the-last-jedi-to-replace-luke-skywalker-with-a-dog-that-solves-mysteries)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 20 December, 2017, 12:40:26 PM
....all those Reymoaners out there....
I'll gladly accept that as a Christmas present.  Wonderful.
Heh, then it's all yours, my friend - and here's wishing you and yours a wonderful Christmas and a peaceful New Year :)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 20 December, 2017, 01:43:23 PM
I found the mutiny and Laura Dern's plan all a bit odd, please correct me if I'm misremembering anything

The story goes.. Poe finds out Laura Dern's plan to evacuate the main ship in slow unarmoured ships in full view of the First Order, he says it will get them all killed. He hatches a plan with his chums to stop the First Order tracking them and sends them off to a different planet. When the codebreaker mission starts to go west, he mutinies, fails and wakes up in the lifeboats or on his way to them. He finds out that part of Laura Dern's plan was for her to stay on the ship and now its a much better plan. I'm not including the light speed incident as part of the plan, it was a reaction to the plan failing against her expectations.

Now what changed? To me, the new plan was very similar indeed to the old plan and surely still had the exact same problem of visibility. If we ignore that and say the plan is a great one if Laura Dern stays on the ship, then why did she tell everyone just enough of the plan to make it sound suicidal and stop there? Also did I miss something as to how Finn and Rose getting off the ship wasn't an issue?



: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Bolt-01 20 December, 2017, 02:26:08 PM
I don't think Poe was party to the evacuation part of the plan. He simply assumed that they were going to try and stay ahead of the FO while they worked something out. He then deliberately didn't tell her about his sending Finn and rose off on a maguffin hunt...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 20 December, 2017, 02:38:35 PM
Right, I remember that differently maybe someone can shed some light on that. Yeah he didn't think she'd ok his codebreaker plan, that's for sure.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Keef Monkey 20 December, 2017, 04:32:59 PM
I'm going to have to come to terms with the fact that I'm wrong, an idiot, or both, because I thought it was fantastic.

That makes two of us.  Flawed, challenging, but fantastic.

Me three.

Me four! Loved it, am booked in to see it again next week and am really, really looking forward to it. I went on my own at the weekend because I wanted to get in ahead of the spoilers, going with my wife and some friends next time and I really can't wait to see it with them and get their reactions to it because I know they'll love it too.

I can understand people not liking it for various reasons (which I don't agree with - I genuinely haven't seen a single piece of criticism I can get on board with, other than the fact that the casino section felt a bit side-questy), but the way people backlash against this stuff nowadays (with petitions and threats and insults to the people involved) is such an incredibly disproportionate response to having some complaints about a film you were looking forward to. Working in games I see it all the time in that area too, because complaints snowball online in a way that there is literally nothing you can do whatsoever that won't be greeted with thousands of angry comments or emoji responses.

It's a shame because it creates such an angry tide that it drowns out any of the positive stuff, and gives the impression nobody likes it. I'm willing to bet the people who actually hate the film are a small vocal minority.

Not saying anyone here is reacting that way, everyone seems to have their own well defined and articulated reasons for being unhappy with it here, but the WORST MOVIE EVER YOU KILLED STAR WARS mob need to get a drokking grip on themselves.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Theblazeuk 20 December, 2017, 05:10:59 PM
Its way better than any of the prequels, so the ship of 'Ruined star wars' sailed a long time ago....
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Dandontdare 20 December, 2017, 05:37:48 PM
Some of the comments really baffle me - one guy on the Guardian website said " I felt like it was watching a live late term abortion ...... On every level I felt betrayed."

a lot of criticisms I've seen could be equally levelled at the original trilogy, if you take away those decades of nostalgia. For example, all those who think Leia floating through space was ridiculous, I wonder what they'd have made of Obi Wan Kenobi's death if it had taken place like that in this film - "WTF? He gets hit with a lightsabre and just disappears leaving an empty robe? That makes no sense!" and yet it's perfectly acceptable canon as it happened in the OT.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 20 December, 2017, 05:58:44 PM
You presume the criticism is relative rather than objective: IE - Leia floating through space like Mary Bleedin Pawpins looked dumb.

"WTF? He gets hit with a lightsabre and just disappears leaving an empty robe? That makes no sense!" and yet it's perfectly acceptable canon as it happened in the OT.

It's the first installment of the series, what canon is it going to contradict, exactly?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 20 December, 2017, 06:08:04 PM
Haha, a live late term abortion ouch. Leah Poppins definitely looked a bit silly. It also undermined the cool scene of her death.   A lot of events amount to nought in the film.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: dweezil2 20 December, 2017, 06:11:54 PM
I didn't hate the film but I didn't love it either.
And silly things like superhero Leia, force sensitive Oliver Twist at the end and 'The Force'?' Master Yoda says it's a load of bollocks and he says we should burn it down while he's on crack really let the film down.
I think I actually enjoyed FA more so welcome back J.J Abrams, all is forgiven!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 20 December, 2017, 06:13:26 PM
You presume the criticism is relative rather than objective: IE - Leia floating through space like Mary Bleedin Pawpins looked dumb.

It did indeed look dumb.  While I liked the idea a lot (last hurrah and all that), the execution was lacking.  Coming after GotG2 was especially unfortunate, and that its weird visuals were coincident with the ignoble death of a beloved bit-player meant it couldn't just be ignored.  Imagine how cool it could have been if a less Poppinesque Leia had gathered up a few of the bridge crew as she went, even if they were DoA.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Dandontdare 20 December, 2017, 06:23:28 PM
Maybe canon was the wrong word - My point was that many haters seem to love the OT but hate this film, but many of these criticisms are equally applicable to the first movies - but because we saw those when we were kids and have decades of nostalgia, they are seen as great, whilst the same scene now would be decried as an insult to the everything SW. Leia floating through space was no more ridiculous than Obi Wan disappearing out of his bathrobe.

and I don't think it looked dumb - how else would someone telekinetically floating through space look?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 20 December, 2017, 06:35:39 PM
You can try to justify it all you like - enough people thought it looked silly that it's become a talking point. In my screening, people laughed out loud at it.

Maybe a better scene would have been her telekinetically using some debris to patch up the hole, or contain the explosion or something?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 20 December, 2017, 06:41:30 PM
I got the impression that Leia was either unconscious or semi-conscious and saved herself instinctively, which was why she didn't have the presence of mind to save anyone else - who would probably be quite widespread, distant and fast-moving by that point anyway. Unless I'm misremembering, of course. I also liked the stable boy bit at the end very much - the Force has awakened, after all, and cast a bleary eye over the galaxy to see billions of potential vessels. I think this is why Luke and Yoda want to end the Jedi; to make the Force available to all rather than just a hypocritical elite. Looking forward to watching it again.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Rusty 20 December, 2017, 06:49:05 PM
Maybe canon was the wrong word - My point was that many haters seem to love the OT but hate this film, but many of these criticisms are equally applicable to the first movies - but because we saw those when we were kids and have decades of nostalgia, they are seen as great, whilst the same scene now would be decried as an insult to the everything SW. Leia floating through space was no more ridiculous than Obi Wan disappearing out of his bathrobe.

and I don't think it looked dumb - how else would someone telekinetically floating through space look?
The point is, if you think it would be stupid, look stupid and make literally no sense and have zero impact on the film as a whole, then why do it? Out of all the various ways you could depict a scene to trick the audience into believing a character has died, they pick that one? It's OK saying that originals were flawed, which they were, but the flaws felt like honest mistakes rather than ridiculously jarring ones. Plus, the makers of these new films have had 3 decades to mull over those so called mistakes. Enough time to make sure they don't produce ones as big, or worse in this case. They should be striving to improve over the originals. Not bury a hatchet in them.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 20 December, 2017, 06:52:23 PM
I do agree there's a double standard when it comes to Star Wars criticism, but there's quite the Wurzel Gummidge being built on the back of what was a simple practical effect that required no suspension of disbelief because it's the kind of thing stage magicians do all the time.
Not so much Leia floating through space like - oh let's say "Tinkerbell" this time.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 20 December, 2017, 06:52:42 PM
Anyone who watched the trailer might know that she survives past that point - unless they Rogue One-d it and reshot half the film
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Dandontdare 20 December, 2017, 06:59:15 PM
The point is, if you think it would be stupid, look stupid and make literally no sense and have zero impact on the film as a whole, then why do it?

but I don't think any of those things - I thought it was absolutely fine both in the context of the plot, the greater SW universe and the on-screen depiction (but my 10 year old self thought Kenobi's death looked a bit silly)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: von Boom 20 December, 2017, 07:25:39 PM
Just back from my first viewing of The Last Jedi.

There were a few moments of genuine interest for me, but there was a lot that felt forced or just plain dumb.

The opening with Poe and Hux was just dumb. Shoot Poe and move on. Ginger git.

On the plus side I was glad to see Snoke killed off and Ken take control.

The Last Jedi felt like a retelling of Empire Strikes back and Return of the Jedi (the Millennium Falcon chase through the caves looked very, very close to the chase through the second Death Star to my eye). Very similar stories going on and very similar themes. So no new territory there.

I really want to like it, but I'm struggling at the moment.



: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Rusty 20 December, 2017, 07:30:34 PM
The point is, if you think it would be stupid, look stupid and make literally no sense and have zero impact on the film as a whole, then why do it?

but I don't think any of those things - I thought it was absolutely fine both in the context of the plot, the greater SW universe and the on-screen depiction (but my 10 year old self thought Kenobi's death looked a bit silly)
I mean everyone involved in making the film, and the test audiences. Most people thought it was daft going by the reactions to it, both online and in actual theatres. It's one of those scenes you'd expect to find on a deleted scenes reel, not in the actual cinema release cut.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Dandontdare 20 December, 2017, 07:35:54 PM
now you're making no sense - you think that everyone involved in the making of a film deliberately put in a scene that they ALL agreed "would be stupid, look stupid and make literally no sense and have zero impact on the film as a whole"?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Enigmatic Dr X 20 December, 2017, 08:12:17 PM
What was the point of Chewie?

Why were the bird things allowed on the Falcon? Who let them on?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mikey 20 December, 2017, 08:15:04 PM
Maybe canon was the wrong word - My point was that many haters seem to love the OT but hate this film, but many of these criticisms are equally applicable to the first movies - but because we saw those when we were kids and have decades of nostalgia, they are seen as great, whilst the same scene now would be decried as an insult to the everything SW. Leia floating through space was no more ridiculous than Obi Wan disappearing out of his bathrobe.

and I don't think it looked dumb - how else would someone telekinetically floating through space look?

Yeah, I think 'we' might be expecting the films to be as serious as we took them as kids. If there's parts of TLJ that took people out of the film that's a real shame for them*, but I was just swept along by it a bit and just enjoyed the ride. A bit like when I saw the first ones really. And the Leia thing was a bit daft, but hey, it also had a bit of class reinforcing her link to the, erm, Force.

*I thought Rogue One was pants in part due to the same thing. 

EDIT: sorry for the overuse of 'bits' there!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: von Boom 20 December, 2017, 08:44:40 PM
What was the point of Chewie?

Why were the bird things allowed on the Falcon? Who let them on?

Taxi driver. Birds were product placement for Disney's latest toy.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: von Boom 20 December, 2017, 08:46:12 PM
Maybe canon was the wrong word - My point was that many haters seem to love the OT but hate this film, but many of these criticisms are equally applicable to the first movies - but because we saw those when we were kids and have decades of nostalgia, they are seen as great, whilst the same scene now would be decried as an insult to the everything SW. Leia floating through space was no more ridiculous than Obi Wan disappearing out of his bathrobe.

and I don't think it looked dumb - how else would someone telekinetically floating through space look?

At least they went back to the Force being the Force.

Yeah, I think 'we' might be expecting the films to be as serious as we took them as kids. If there's parts of TLJ that took people out of the film that's a real shame for them*, but I was just swept along by it a bit and just enjoyed the ride. A bit like when I saw the first ones really. And the Leia thing was a bit daft, but hey, it also had a bit of class reinforcing her link to the, erm, Force.

*I thought Rogue One was pants in part due to the same thing. 

EDIT: sorry for the overuse of 'bits' there!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 20 December, 2017, 09:16:10 PM
What was the point of Chewie?

Kicking in Luke's door was cool, as were his interactions with the Porgs (some of the best bits of the film) - and Leia.  He let the Porgs overrun the place because he was heartbroken and lonely.  But yeah, he could have been give more to do.

The Last Jedi felt like a retelling of Empire Strikes back and Return of the Jedi (the Millennium Falcon chase through the caves looked very, very close to the chase through the second Death Star to my eye). Very similar stories going on and very similar themes. So no new territory there.

Except for all the ways that it repeatedly overturned the expectations that the similarities set up, which was very much the point. 
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 20 December, 2017, 09:37:03 PM
I knew it! I knew there had to be a missing scene that resolved the 'three lessons'. It felt like an annoying thread that was left dangling.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/report-heres-what-lukes-third-lesson-to-rey-in-the-las-1821467308 (https://io9.gizmodo.com/report-heres-what-lukes-third-lesson-to-rey-in-the-las-1821467308)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 20 December, 2017, 09:42:29 PM
You can try to justify it all you like - enough people thought it looked silly that it's become a talking point. In my screening, people laughed out loud at it.

Maybe a better scene would have been her telekinetically using some debris to patch up the hole, or contain the explosion or something?

The original idea's perfectly fine – even great. Your suggestion sounds more bombastic, and more of what we'd expect, whereas I think they wanted something we hadn't seen before. Something more gentle for the first time she's shown using the Force.

I assume the problems people have with it are partly because she glides across a wide-shot whereas it might have looked less 'magical' if it had just been seen as a head on shot through the airlock.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 20 December, 2017, 09:45:54 PM
Also, I really liked the porgs. Maybe I'm mistaken but I felt like they were used very sparingly in the film.

The creatures in TLJ evoked a certain kind of Jim Henson vibe from particular movies from my childhood without being an on the nose reference or callback to something specific. That's the kind of fan service I can get behind.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 20 December, 2017, 10:04:02 PM
I liked the Porgs too, but then again I like Ewoks! :) I'm a sucker for a little cuddly thing. What Chewy did to their mate was horrifying
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 21 December, 2017, 07:15:42 AM
The creatures in TLJ evoked a certain kind of Jim Henson vibe from particular movies from my childhood without being an on the nose reference or callback to something specific. That's the kind of fan service I can get behind.

Yeah, the creatures were universally excellent, even the Falthiers, which I had been dubious about going in. and Yoda, who seems to attract some odd criticism - by far the best of the 'new' Yodas IMHO. 
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 21 December, 2017, 08:53:51 AM
The original idea's perfectly fine – even great. Your suggestion sounds more bombastic, and more of what we'd expect, whereas I think they wanted something we hadn't seen before. Something more gentle for the first time she's shown using the Force.

I think all the new Force trickery is one of the movie's greatest strengths. Rey's 'moving rocks' line pretty much sums up the way in which the later Prequels reduced a personal alliance with a mystical energy to a series of D&D combat talents and some vague prognostication.  TLJ expands the potential of the 'awakened' Force in directions that are exciting and potentially expansive, evoking for me the enticing strangeness of the early comics and books. It's a hell of step up from New Lightsabre Configuration No. 7 and "preventing people from dying".

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JamesC 21 December, 2017, 09:22:45 AM
The original idea's perfectly fine – even great. Your suggestion sounds more bombastic, and more of what we'd expect, whereas I think they wanted something we hadn't seen before. Something more gentle for the first time she's shown using the Force.

I think all the new Force trickery is one of the movie's greatest strengths. Rey's 'moving rocks' line pretty much sums up the way in which the later Prequels reduced a personal alliance with a mystical energy to a series of D&D combat talents and some vague prognostication.  TLJ expands the potential of the 'awakened' Force in directions that are exciting and potentially expansive, evoking for me the enticing strangeness of the early comics and books. It's a hell of step up from New Lightsabre Configuration No. 7 and "preventing people from dying".



Totally agree with this. The Force should be weird and unpredictable. I really liked the fact that even the force users themselves didn't understand what was happening (Snoke had connected Rey and Kylo with neither of them being aware of what was happening).

My favourite of the new creatures were the diamond dogs on Krait. They were beautifully animated.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 21 December, 2017, 09:56:10 AM
My favourite of the new creatures were the diamond dogs on Krait. They were beautifully animated.

These were my least favourite. Nicely animated and designed they might be but they were still only there to be used solely as a plot device.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 21 December, 2017, 10:13:54 AM
Surely most things are just plot devices at their base, from the Death Star (a plot device to provide a threat) to the Millennium Falcon (a plot device to get characters from A to B) to lightsabres (a plot device to cut through doors and things) to that whacking great asteroid dwelling worm thing in TESB (a plot device to push the Falcon back into the chase)? I thought those crystal fox things were lovely, my favourite TLJ critters.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 21 December, 2017, 10:26:59 AM
My favourite of the new creatures were the diamond dogs on Krait. They were beautifully animated.

These were my least favourite. Nicely animated and designed they might be but they were still only there to be used solely as a plot device.

And to populate a planet with more than minerals.  Some nonsense about air currents (Mines of Moria) or a map that R2 has could have served the same purpose, but these help establish the world as a distinct place.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JamesC 21 December, 2017, 10:28:10 AM
My favourite of the new creatures were the diamond dogs on Krait. They were beautifully animated.

These were my least favourite. Nicely animated and designed they might be but they were still only there to be used solely as a plot device.

Couldn't you say the same about Taun Tauns?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 21 December, 2017, 11:17:02 AM
My favourite of the new creatures were the diamond dogs on Krait. They were beautifully animated.

These were my least favourite. Nicely animated and designed they might be but they were still only there to be used solely as a plot device.

Couldn't you say the same about Taun Tauns?

Well, they were serving another purpose as transport.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Spaceghost 21 December, 2017, 11:21:20 AM
The crystal foxes were, at least in some scenes, animatronic puppets. Something I didn't realise when I watched the film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJNfysZRmf4
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JamesC 21 December, 2017, 11:25:17 AM
The crystal foxes were, at least in some scenes, animatronic puppets. Something I didn't realise when I watched the film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJNfysZRmf4

Fantastic.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steven Denton 21 December, 2017, 02:05:40 PM
Surely most things are just plot devices at their base, from the Death Star (a plot device to provide a threat) to the Millennium Falcon (a plot device to get characters from A to B) to lightsabres (a plot device to cut through doors and things) to that whacking great asteroid dwelling worm thing in TESB (a plot device to push the Falcon back into the chase)? I thought those crystal fox things were lovely, my favourite TLJ critters.

You could reduce any element of the film to it's narrative function and claim its a plot device but for that to be true fiction would have to be nothing more than an arrangement of plot devices. Which it kind of is. but If those things seem to only exist to fill a particular narrative purpose, a plant and pay off, are they more of a plot device then an iconic battle station that serves as both the primary threat of the story and about half of the films locations?   

Arguably the crystal foxes appeared in the film for a single use and could have been replaced with any number of single use plot devices for finding an exit to the caves the caves.

However I can't see why this means they shouldn't have been used over any other type of plot device. and personally I like the crystal foxes. 
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 21 December, 2017, 03:29:46 PM
I like 'em too. They didn't look out of place and just because they had only one plot function, aside from the "set decoration" purpose of inhabiting an alien planet, I don't think they were too contrived. How many times in stories have protagonists followed animals to escape an enclosed space? I don't think these crystal foxes were a bad idea or badly used, is what I'm saying. That whacking great asteroid dwelling worm thing in TESB had only one function as well and exists now as an iconic scene that nobody complains about. These beautiful crystal critters will probably never be as iconic but I'm glad they're there and I have no problem with their role in the narrative. They're certainly a better, more "Star Warsey" idea than somebody lighting a torch and following the smoke.



: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steven Denton 21 December, 2017, 03:37:38 PM
The cave monster is Iconic because it's a surprise and a great image. It's a location, a threat and a twist. the bat Things inside are more like the Crystal Foxes In my somewhat pedantic opinion. 
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steven Denton 21 December, 2017, 03:52:28 PM
The hoth wampa has a sole purpose and that's to hit Luke in the face and explain Hamills scars, that's not even a proper narrative purpose and I still love the hoth wampa!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 21 December, 2017, 03:56:48 PM
Second viewing today (in 3-D) with my 13 year old Son who loved it.
He admitted that his expectations were low after listening to his Mother and I discuss the film but he enjoyed it all the same.
Personally I enjoyed this viewing much more. There are so many inconsistencies but because I had seen it before I managed to ignore them and concentrate on other things, like the performances.
It's still nowhere near my fave Star Wars film but there is much to love about it, including looking absolutely fabulous for the most part.
Of course the plot is hardly moved along at all considering the film basically takes place over twenty four hours, or thereabouts, and there is another fudge in the final scenes where we are told that the smaller craft leaving the main rebel cruisers will be unshielded, yet we hear in the background that shields are up, only for a main character to talk about the lack of shields later. There is the lack of the '3rd lesson' to Rey from Luke but I have read what that was and why it was cut but it's still a tad jarring. It's still far too long by at least 30 mins in my opinion but hey, what do I know.

I do know that I enjoyed it much more on it's second viewing. The faults are still there but this time instead of concentrating on those I was able to see the heart of the movie beating underneath and, at times, it's a beautiful heart.
Flawed but still a very good addition to the Star Wars family.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 21 December, 2017, 04:07:13 PM
The cave monster is Iconic because it's a surprise and a great image. It's a location, a threat and a twist. the bat Things inside are more like the Crystal Foxes In my somewhat pedantic opinion. 
The hoth wampa has a sole purpose and that's to hit Luke in the face and explain Hamills scars, that's not even a proper narrative purpose and I still love the hoth wampa!

I agree with you. I was responding to someone who disliked the crystal foxes entirely because they were a plot device - which just about everything in service to a plot is.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steven Denton 21 December, 2017, 04:17:12 PM
The cave monster is Iconic because it's a surprise and a great image. It's a location, a threat and a twist. the bat Things inside are more like the Crystal Foxes In my somewhat pedantic opinion. 
The hoth wampa has a sole purpose and that's to hit Luke in the face and explain Hamills scars, that's not even a proper narrative purpose and I still love the hoth wampa!

I agree with you. I was responding to someone who disliked the crystal foxes entirely because they were a plot device - which just about everything in service to a plot is.

I know, I found the idea that just about everything is a plot device interesting, because it's both true and untrue depending on how far you are willing to stretch the proposition. then I started thinking about what would be a more or less identical narrative analogy. Star Wars is such a huge body of work there had to be one

I couldn't see how the original criticism of the crystal foxes worked, so I started talking about your narrative ideas instead.

Strangely I didn't enjoy the film but I have found it incredibly interesting to dissect and discuss. Every one seems to have come away as if they have watched different films. the reactions and discussions and fights have been amazing!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 21 December, 2017, 04:21:56 PM
[shameless self-promotion] If you are interested in my narrative ideas, buy a copy of the latest Paragon comic! [/shameless self-promotion] :-D

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 21 December, 2017, 04:40:40 PM
I agree with you. I was responding to someone who disliked the crystal foxes entirely because they were a plot device - which just about everything in service to a plot is.

That would be me, and I disagree. Integral plot device. The caretakers aren't an integral plot device, neither are the porgs in my opinion. The crystal critters are, imo, there only to serve one purpose and that is as a plot device. And it's lazy despite how beautiful they look.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 21 December, 2017, 05:00:52 PM
On my second viewing, I spotted a couple of plot holes: magic isn't real, and that's not how spaceships and lasers work.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: von Boom 21 December, 2017, 05:06:11 PM
On my second viewing, I spotted a couple of plot holes: magic isn't real, and that's not how spaceships and lasers work.

What? X-wings can't bank 180° in the space of a couple of metre? I think you need to look closely at detailed space combat section in The Butter Battle Book by Dr. Seuss
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 21 December, 2017, 05:08:42 PM
I agree with you. I was responding to someone who disliked the crystal foxes entirely because they were a plot device - which just about everything in service to a plot is.

That would be me, and I disagree. Integral plot device. The caretakers aren't an integral plot device, neither are the porgs in my opinion. The crystal critters are, imo, there only to serve one purpose and that is as a plot device. And it's lazy despite how beautiful they look.

I see your point and respect it. I don't think the same way but who cares? If we all shared the same perspective it would be a very dull world. Your perspective encouraged me to think about my perspective and that's the beauty of these discussions, I think. If we don't think about what we think or think about what other people think then I think that what we think isn't really worth thinking, don't you think?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steven Denton 21 December, 2017, 05:17:03 PM
I agree with you. I was responding to someone who disliked the crystal foxes entirely because they were a plot device - which just about everything in service to a plot is.

That would be me, and I disagree. Integral plot device. The caretakers aren't an integral plot device, neither are the porgs in my opinion. The crystal critters are, imo, there only to serve one purpose and that is as a plot device. And it's lazy despite how beautiful they look.

The Porgs are there to cover real world Puffins. The Caretakers are there for background colour.

The Crystal foxes add some background colour and fulfil a narrative purpose. Not sure how that's lazy. They had to get out of the mine somehow and that seems as good a way as any to me.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 21 December, 2017, 05:29:31 PM
The porgs are there to stealth-promote vegetarianism... ;)

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: jacob g 21 December, 2017, 05:55:29 PM
The crystal critters are, imo, there only to serve one purpose and that is as a plot device. And it's lazy despite how beautiful they look.

Like this god damn air-vents in Die Hard! Lazy.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 21 December, 2017, 06:08:10 PM
I agree with you. I was responding to someone who disliked the crystal foxes entirely because they were a plot device - which just about everything in service to a plot is.

That would be me, and I disagree. Integral plot device. The caretakers aren't an integral plot device, neither are the porgs in my opinion. The crystal critters are, imo, there only to serve one purpose and that is as a plot device. And it's lazy despite how beautiful they look.

I see your point and respect it. I don't think the same way but who cares?

I do. Which is why I posted.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 21 December, 2017, 06:09:16 PM
I agree with you. I was responding to someone who disliked the crystal foxes entirely because they were a plot device - which just about everything in service to a plot is.

That would be me, and I disagree. Integral plot device. The caretakers aren't an integral plot device, neither are the porgs in my opinion. The crystal critters are, imo, there only to serve one purpose and that is as a plot device. And it's lazy despite how beautiful they look.

The Porgs are there to cover real world Puffins. The Caretakers are there for background colour.

The Crystal foxes add some background colour and fulfil a narrative purpose. Not sure how that's lazy. They had to get out of the mine somehow and that seems as good a way as any to me.

Didn't have to go in the mine  in the first place. The last place I would have gone in.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 21 December, 2017, 06:10:04 PM
The crystal critters are, imo, there only to serve one purpose and that is as a plot device. And it's lazy despite how beautiful they look.

Like this god damn air-vents in Die Hard! Lazy.

Ah, man. We are now in a different world .

I can now see the craziness.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 21 December, 2017, 06:12:47 PM
background colour.


Enough said.
On a losing streak.
Never gonna win, or gain ground, with that kind of explanation.
I've said my piece.
I liked it.
Just obviously not enough for some.


: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 21 December, 2017, 06:22:15 PM
Sorry, Matt, I didn't mean to belittle or upset you when I asked, "who cares?" It was my ham-fisted way of saying it's just a disagreement over one aspect of one film and not worth falling out about.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steven Denton 21 December, 2017, 06:44:43 PM
background colour.


Enough said.
On a losing streak.
Never gonna win, or gain ground, with that kind of explanation.
I've said my piece.
I liked it.
Just obviously not enough for some.

Losing streak for what?

I like background colour, it gives a location depth.

I’m certainly not criticising your comments, just trying to understand them.

I was supprised when the film kept going after the rebels got to the mine. I expected it to finish and then pick up the siege and escape in episode 9. That for me was when it started to feel too long.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 21 December, 2017, 07:21:02 PM
Sorry, Matt, I didn't mean to belittle or upset you when I asked, "who cares?" It was my ham-fisted way of saying it's just a disagreement over one aspect of one film and not worth falling out about.

Hey, no worries  :)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 21 December, 2017, 07:28:15 PM
:)

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Rusty 21 December, 2017, 11:08:44 PM
The porgs are there to stealth-promote vegetarianism... ;)
And tiny plastic chickens on a spit.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 22 December, 2017, 01:43:42 AM
I think all the new Force trickery is one of the movie's greatest strengths.

Definitely and the the force-skyping – touching at a distance – was something I wished for the Prequels back-in-the-day.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 22 December, 2017, 03:47:20 AM
I wasn't keen on the astral projection stuff with Luke at the end - felt weirdly unsatisfying as an ending for some reason - and I found the Leia scene weird, but I did like how the Force was presented as more mystical/magical in this one.

One of the great disappointments of the prequels for me was that after so many years of wondering what the Jedi could do, the answer was: 'basically, not much beyond what we see Luke, Vader and the Emperor do in the originals'.

The RLM review really nailed this point - I always read it that the Emperor zapped Luke with lightning on a whim - we're just seeing a fraction of what he's capable of. But as far as the prequels would have us believe, the lightning thing is pretty much the limit of what he can do, oh, and and all dark jedis can do it.

There's a similar point made about robes - ie that Obi Wan wears robes because he's an old hermit who lives in the desert - and this somehow ended up being the de facto jedi 'uniform' in subsequent films.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mardroid 22 December, 2017, 07:22:29 AM
While part of me would have liked to see what Luke was now capable of in a real battle, I loved the projection twist, especially as I was expecting him to do an Obi-wan with his previous comment to Kylo.

When he appeared to be stabbed I thought "here we go!" then it turned out he wasn't really even there, and I thought, "yes, he's safe! He'll be back, for the Sequel!" (Actually, there's a good chance he still will be, in a limited way, but I was hoping they wouldn't kill off all the old school, even if they're making way for the new, which I do respect.)

Then his cloak collapsed. My feelings were very mixed by that stage. I guess it's kind of poetic, and it's yet another twist, but I can't help being a bit disappointed. It left food for thought, though. Did the strain of the projection cause his heart to give out? Was damage from the fight actually transferred to his body (I. E. We saw Rey leave water on Kylo's hand after they touched, so there is precedent for that.) Did he actually die at all, or just will himself to become one with The Force as he figured he would serve better that way? (Precedence suggests death is still required as a doorway where this is concerned although I'm sure will power is involved, even if it's just letting go. His grimace of pain obviously suggests he has a been hurt and so that's a major factor. 


Anyway, I really enjoyed that film. It had its faults, but I think the good stuff far outweighed the bad. A bit sad most here seem to dislike it, or are they just the most vocal?

Curious thing, is how a film with such a grim outcome in turns of losses turned out to be so light-hearted. I found it probably the funniest of the films. I loved the 'reaching out to the force' gag.

"Ooh, yes! I can feel it!" SLAP!

And the running gag with Rey and the amphibian nurses was very amusing.

The ironing gag with the deliberately misleading incidental music made me laugh. It was perhaps a bit too meta, possibly better suited to a parody, but I admire the fact they had the audacity to stick it in there.


Oh, and Chewie and the Porgs. Heh, Heh. (That's actually, kinda dark, eh?)

My verdict: possibly the best of the new films, although it might be equal to Rogue One, which was a different kind of film, anyway. I even didn't mind that seemingly redundant subplot with the casino too much since it served as a nice bit of misdirection and that not all plans will succeed. I think it also set up things for the sequel with the introduction of an interesting character.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 22 December, 2017, 07:48:17 AM
The gorgeous @DeeGoots brought this joyous tweeted gif to my attention:

https://twitter.com/RoqooDepot/status/943990300325814272?s=09
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 22 December, 2017, 09:56:12 AM
Say what
One of the great disappointments of the prequels for me was that after so many years of wondering what the Jedi could do, the answer was: 'basically, not much beyond what we see Luke, Vader and the Emperor do in the originals'.

Wasn't the point of the Jedi in the PT that they'd stagnated and reached the limits of their knowledge?  The Jedi had become dogmatic to the point they viewed the Force as nothing more than the result of atomic tapeworms and had established a grand temple in the political capitol of the Republic dedicated to teaching a brand of martial arts - even TLJ establishes that the order's failure to evolve had left it vulnerable to corruption from within as well as its external enemies.
On the opposite side of the fence, I don't see Sidious imparting all of his secrets to someone whose only purpose is to kill him and take all his stuff - dangling his knowledge of the prolonging/creation of life was how he turned Anakin, much as the promise of new knowledge allowed Snoke to turn Ben Solo.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: shaolin_monkey 22 December, 2017, 12:25:04 PM
I like the space battles, which were exciting with things exploding and stuff. 

I liked the laswer sword fighting, like with the woman and the man, and the people in red clothes. 

I liked the big walking things attacking the fast cars in the red snow stuff. 

The best funny bit was when the giant walking dog didn't eat the tiny chicken because the other chickens were sad. 

The best sad bit was when the general died in space, but it turned out she didn't die and had powers to float back into the ship, which was happy. 

I liked the robots too.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: James Stacey 22 December, 2017, 01:41:04 PM
saw it last night and thought it was great. Not every joke landed but thats fine, thats not its main thrust. Fantastic subversion of expectations.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Jim_Campbell 22 December, 2017, 01:43:43 PM
I like the space battles, which were exciting with things exploding and stuff. 

I don't think you're taking this seriously enough.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steven Denton 22 December, 2017, 02:16:10 PM
The gorgeous @DeeGoots brought this joyous tweeted gif to my attention:

https://twitter.com/RoqooDepot/status/943990300325814272?s=09

Is it just me or was there something weirdly sexual about the milking scene?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: James Stacey 22 December, 2017, 02:18:24 PM
it was the boobs wasnt it.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 22 December, 2017, 02:31:40 PM
Jedi should be able to be breastfed in public without your male gaze sexualising the pure love between a farmboy and his Aunt Beru substitute.

If there was one moment in this film that I loved above all others, it was milking the Quadboobseal.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 22 December, 2017, 02:49:09 PM
Pervert! Although Luke could have hung his hat on those nipples.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steven Denton 22 December, 2017, 02:50:40 PM
I want to start a band called milking the quadboobseal now!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 22 December, 2017, 03:34:33 PM
Does there seem to be less in the way of tie-ins this time around?

Usually it's happy meals or burger king stuff, but not noticed anything this time around - except bizarrely themed niche graphics cards.

Kentucky Fried Porgs with green milkshakes maybe?

I would have loved to have seen a vacformed one of those quadboobseals on the dispensing machine.

Old Luke looks a bit like Colonel Sanders if you squint a lot.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 22 December, 2017, 03:42:58 PM
I feel like porging tonight...

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 22 December, 2017, 04:39:05 PM
Usually it's happy meals or burger king stuff, but not noticed anything this time around

As I understand it, Disney doesn't do fast food tie ins any more.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 22 December, 2017, 04:48:38 PM
Hmm - googling it sees some articles about them cutting ties with McDonalds in 2006, but looks like they had some tie-ins with Subway for TFA.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Woolly 22 December, 2017, 05:22:23 PM
Saw this last night and loved it!
I agree it was maybe 20 minutes too long, and the 'find the locksmith' plot thread was a bit weird (the casino scene bothered me a bit - reminded me of the 50s diner in AOTC), but everything else was a blast.

Star Wars is finally fresh and new again, and that is a very very good thing.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 22 December, 2017, 06:53:50 PM
If there was one moment in this film that I loved above all others, it was milking the Quadboobseal.

Everyone assumes they're boobs.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 22 December, 2017, 07:26:42 PM
Anyway, I really enjoyed that film. It had its faults, but I think the good stuff far outweighed the bad. A bit sad most here seem to dislike it, or are they just the most vocal?


After you've had a quick succession of negative reactions people who reacted more positively might feel a bit less likely to pipe up.






It had its faults but I liked it, by and large.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 22 December, 2017, 07:28:36 PM
Saw this last night and loved it!
I agree it was maybe 20 minutes too long, and the 'find the locksmith' plot thread was a bit weird (the casino scene bothered me a bit - reminded me of the 50s diner in AOTC), but everything else was a blast.

Star Wars is finally fresh and new again, and that is a very very good thing.


The implausibility of leaving an active battle scene to go off to a civilised planet and back bothered me, but I knew I wouldn't be able to rationalise it so looked on it as an excuse for special effects and a sub-plot.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 22 December, 2017, 07:29:37 PM
I like the space battles, which were exciting with things exploding and stuff. 

I don't think you're taking this seriously enough.


It is NOT POSSIBLE to take Star Wars too seriously!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Woolly 22 December, 2017, 07:53:49 PM
Saw this last night and loved it!
I agree it was maybe 20 minutes too long, and the 'find the locksmith' plot thread was a bit weird (the casino scene bothered me a bit - reminded me of the 50s diner in AOTC), but everything else was a blast.

Star Wars is finally fresh and new again, and that is a very very good thing.


The implausibility of leaving an active battle scene to go off to a civilised planet and back bothered me, but I knew I wouldn't be able to rationalise it so looked on it as an excuse for special effects and a sub-plot.

Absolutely, and it was all pretty thrilling stuff. Just a bit drawn out i guess.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 22 December, 2017, 08:15:31 PM
Arguably the crystal foxes appeared in the film for a single use and could have been replaced with any number of single use plot devices for finding an exit to the caves the caves.

However I can't see why this means they shouldn't have been used over any other type of plot device. and personally I like the crystal foxes.


Not responding to you specifically, just on the general subject of crystal foxes.  Has nobody here seen Star Wars: Rebels?  They reminded me of Ezra's Loth-Cat allies...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tiplodocus 22 December, 2017, 11:49:25 PM
My word! Wasn't that just fantastic?

Adam Driver and Mark Hamill were stupendous.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 23 December, 2017, 01:44:00 AM
There's even a petition to get Disney to strike The Last Jedi from canon, push back Episode 9, and re-make Episode 8 the way these "fans" want it.

I mean...I can't imagine what is going on in the minds of these people.


Because that worked so well for Superman Returns :)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mardroid 23 December, 2017, 07:51:07 AM
My word! Wasn't that just fantastic?

Adam Driver and Mark Hamill were stupendous.
Thank you! More positivity. Not to knock the rest of you. It's just nice to see a bit more balance in the force, I mean, thread.

By the way those lovely crystal animals reminded me more of lynxes than foxes, but I guess they're kind of in between.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: von Boom 23 December, 2017, 11:39:40 AM
My word! Wasn't that just fantastic?

Adam Driver and Mark Hamill were stupendous.

I agree. I didn't particularly like Adam Driver in TFA, but he's improved greatly. Of course Mark Hamill was going to give it his all.

I've realized that TLJ was the best when they were focused on the Jedi. The Resistance portions were weaker and overly long. If they'd cut about 20 minutes from the Resistance storyline I think the film would have been much stronger.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 23 December, 2017, 11:59:49 AM
My thoughts exactly.
Loved the bits with Rey and Luke.
The rest...Not so much.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Colin YNWA 23 December, 2017, 04:21:56 PM
Just come out of the film and before I look at commonly held opinion thought I'd give my raw, should probably see it again before commiting thoughts.

Bloody loved it.

Best I've felt leaving a Stars Wars film in like years. Really like 34 of um.

There are so many bit's that U should he scoffing, but I just can't unlike any of the prequels, unlike TFA or R1 it sweep me along and made me feel like the giddy kid it's target audience should be.

It had the courage to be new and different and seemed to deliberately sweep away the past. Good example of what I mean is introducing the Laura Dern character when you'd think the others would have played it with Admiral A norally blown aside quickly.

New world's, fresh environments, fresh feel while still being classic Star Wars.

It was only over  long but the problem with saying that I'd there's next to nowt I'd remove.

Need to see it again for a more sober view. But as of this moment the only film I'd consider rating alongside original three.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tiplodocus 23 December, 2017, 04:26:27 PM
I can see why it wasn't for some people though.

And it will be interesting to see how it goes down with a younger audience.

I get the feeling that those people creating the petition want a Star Wars film which is pretty much the equivalent of them (finally) unboxing and playing fights with all of their Star Wars toys*.

This definitely wasn't that. But has Rian thrown the baby out with the bathwater?


* e.g. the fan service, bad-ass, bad guy Vader bit at the end of Rogue One.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Colin YNWA 23 December, 2017, 04:34:51 PM
I get the feeling that those people creating the petition

There's a petition? I need to be doing some reading I think! I've been actively avoiding spoilers for the last week and half ... and this film seems to have... well stirred up emotions then I take it...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 23 December, 2017, 06:14:48 PM
More people have signed the petition to have The Last Jedi re-shot with Luke Skywalker replaced with a mystery-solving dog than have signed the petition to strike the movie from canon.  The prominence given to the latter in debate about Star Wars fans tells you far more about Last Jedi evangelicals than it does OT fanboys.

See also:
2005 - UGH a lanky-haired emo Vader that looks like he's having a tantrum what a stupid idea!  Lucas knows nothing about making a Star Wars movie!
2017 - YAY a lanky-haired emo Vader that's throwing an actual tantrum what a great idea! JJ Abrams/Rian Johnson knows how to make a Star Wars movie!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 23 December, 2017, 06:50:33 PM
It all comes down to their opinions on sand.

A week on and all I know for sure is that I'm still excited about the whole crazy messy thing, and my entire family is clamouring for a repeat viewing tomorrow. I don't care if the RT score is 1%, as long as there's enough box office to warrant making loads more, and I eventually get my mitts on a super-articulated Final Duel Luke in 3.5" scale.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 23 December, 2017, 07:20:11 PM
Anakin's sand dialogue is much-misunderstood and is actually the classic romance trope of the clumsy swerve mid-sentence to avoid saying something regrettable: clearly he was in the middle of telling Padme that he's had loads of birds on Tatooine, but halfway through he thinks better of telling her that sand gets "under the hood" as proof and waffles a bit until complete fucking shit comes out.  One sympathizes.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 23 December, 2017, 08:30:48 PM
See also:
2005 - UGH a lanky-haired emo Vader that looks like he's having a tantrum what a stupid idea!  Lucas knows nothing about making a Star Wars movie!
2017 - YAY a lanky-haired emo Vader that's throwing an actual tantrum what a great idea! JJ Abrams/Rian Johnson knows how to make a Star Wars movie!


To be fair (to the raving fanboys) the 2005 version was supposed to be Vader, while the 2015/2017 is somebody who has grown up in Vader's shadow and feels inadequate in relation to him.  When writing American Graffiti, Lucas had help from Katz and Huyck, particularly to develop the relationship and romantic themes.  The prequel trilogy does not appear to have had this development process.  I was watching Attack of the Clones in the run-up to the midnight double-bill, and still can't see what on earth Padme would see in Anakin in the scenes where she's supposed to be falling for him.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Colin YNWA 23 December, 2017, 08:39:58 PM
It has problems, but none I couldn't see past, quite easily.

Of those I'm currently reading the idea of no credible threat is really curious. From the (ludirious) WWII bombing mission of the opening scene to the final escape on the Falcon the Empir... I mean First Orders tightening grip on the Rebellian well they even stop pretending by the end) is tangible and its effects felt throughout. By the end there is literally less than 20 left by my estimate.

Threat two is the whole Kylo Ren thing which genuinely gripped me throughout all added to by the relationships with Luke detailed beautifully I felt... well okay beautifully is over stating it but really well for an thrilling action piece.

I was very out of touch with popular opinion about TFA when it landed too, but people seem to have come around more to my view (its poo) ... I'll win you over on this one too!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 23 December, 2017, 10:38:05 PM
I'd be surprised to learn than most people think TFA is poo (Poe, maybe), but you're certainly on the right track with TLJ.

My view on TFA is still its opening line: "this will begin to make things right". I think that's exactly what it did, reintroduced the good stuff, and it's that simple foundation that allows TLJ to go crazy and be genuinely surprising.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Colin YNWA 23 December, 2017, 10:47:41 PM
Well yes must people aren't as extreme as my poo based thought when it comes to TFA but I certainly think the intitial furor has died down a great deal... as might mine for TLJ of course!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: darnmarr 24 December, 2017, 02:42:45 PM
This is the last Starwars film I am going to be bothered watching; for me, The Force Awakens felt like watching The Australian Abba or some other equivalent tribute band- but that was okay , I felt , because, in a way, it HAD to be; it was the first Disney post-prequel out of the gate, it was okay that it was so referential, it had to regain the original spirit, as it were.

 But this was the film where we were going to find out if the franchise had potential- if the franchise had chops of any sort and I honestly thought it was a confusing and pointless narrative mess. People have told me ' it's just for kids and don't over-analyse it'-- so look; as far as 'kids's films' go-- Paddington 2 was by far the superior film. As far as actual films go. I wouldn't recommend this to anyone.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: CrazyFoxMachine 25 December, 2017, 12:16:33 AM
Yeah went to a Christmas Eve screening o' this and I must say my own particular take can be summed up like this:

(https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-04-2015/JytiLp.gif)

In other words: When the dust settles I think people will look on this as a good film. Yeah it's overlong, slightly too-linear and has one too-many silly bits but it balances things well and introduces a stance the flimsy franchise has never before covered: the very relatable fact that nobody really knows what they're doing most of the time and that perceived destiny is largely a matter of perspective and mostly wank. Kudos to it for that, a vast improvement over the comparatively flimsy TFA for me.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 25 December, 2017, 12:48:33 AM
Yeah, my feeling is that in the long run this instalment will be well regarded. Abrams set up a lot of stuff that looked good, but that (surprise) he hadn't really thought through, and Johnson chose a brave course in confronting that rather than continuing to build on shaky foundations: it's going to be fascinating seeing Abrams back at the crease now.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 25 December, 2017, 12:17:35 PM
Honestly chaps.....the dust has well and truly settled for me. It didn't take long.....I'd largely forgotten about the whole film hours after it had finished.

I will never regard this as a good film, I still think it was awful and made horrible mistakes every step of the way from the start to its miserable finale.

I'm genuinely pleased if people can enjoy it. I didn't.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Colin YNWA 25 December, 2017, 01:39:14 PM
Yeah went to a Christmas Eve screening o' this and I must say my own particular take can be summed up like this:

(https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-04-2015/JytiLp.gif)


Don't care if you agree with the sentiment or not, but surely we can all agree this is the greatest analogy for a film, any film, ever!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Pete Wells 28 December, 2017, 10:34:43 AM
I’ve seen it twice now and really like it (though don’t LOVE it.) It was much, much better than TFA, however.

In an ideal world I would like to have seen Leia knock out Holdo and sacrifice herself, it would have been the perfect ending for her character. Obviously we didn’t know Carrie was going to die in real life so it’s all well and good saying stuff like that, they’ll have probably had all her scenes in Crate filmed. Also, it would have robbed us of the beautiful ‘reunion’ scene of Luke and Leia too.

I’m sad that Luke is dead (I think I actually was grieving for him for a few days!) and it seems mad to spend the whole of the previous film searching for him only to kill him off after one movie. That, added to Rey’s parents and no Snoke backstory lends itself to a ‘making it up as they go along’ kinda vibe.  I did love how Luke died though - peacefully and on his terms while sacrificing himself for the greater good. I guess he is too big to be in the movies.

The thing that concerns me most is that, for me, a lifelong Star Wars fan, there’s no massive yearning to see Episode 9 now. No big questions, no cliffhangers, nothing. It’s basically going to be a one and done film dealing with Kylo. Am I missing something?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 28 December, 2017, 10:50:27 AM
No, I don't think you are missing anything. Unless you are really interested in the fate of Kylo.....there really isn't anything to be excited about in episode 9. You want to see the first order beaten by 20 rebels maybe? It'll be Kylo that destroys it.

Rey is now fairly one-note. She can use the force. There is apparently nothing else we need to know about her now.

I thought they stole all of the charm from Finn and poes characters, so not excited to see them again.

JJ could save this mess.....if he brings lukes character back into the story and actually makes him a role model likeable hero again, perhaps some of the damage that's been done here could be at least partially addressed. It'll always be deeply unsatisfying and disappointing though.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 28 December, 2017, 10:51:27 AM
For me.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tiplodocus 28 December, 2017, 11:02:50 AM
No cliffhanger? The whole set up of being able to fit the entire rebellion into the Millenium Falcon is a massive cliffhanger.

It should all be stuff we haven't seen before from this point on. Rebellion/Resistance have always been well equipped but now they have nothing but the force and that little spark of hope.

Of course the opening crawl of 9 will probably start "Three years after being inspired by the sacrifice of Luke Skywalker, the Last Jedi, and the Resistance are on the brink of victory...."
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Colin YNWA 28 December, 2017, 11:12:52 AM
No cliffhanger? The whole set up of being able to fit the entire rebellion into the Millenium Falcon is a massive cliffhanger.


Yeah for me the whole point of Last Jedi was building tension by slowly destroying the Resistance and smashing  it down to its knees while stripping out the old stuff. This surely forces (pun entirely intended) the next film to do new stuff (I hope). For me it was a cracking cliffhanger underlined by hope coming from inspired stable boys.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Link Prime 28 December, 2017, 11:22:41 AM
Rey is now fairly one-note. She can use the force. There is apparently nothing else we need to know about her now.

I thought they stole all of the charm from Finn and poes characters, so not excited to see them again.


Yeah, I feel the same.
If I'm totally honest, I couldn't give two shites about any of the new characters compared to Luke, for that matter compared to Chewie, but one of the many sins this film committed was actually making me like them less than I did during the TFA.
Finn in particular- what a waste of a decent character (and great actor).
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 28 December, 2017, 11:31:39 AM
No cliffhanger? The whole set up of being able to fit the entire rebellion into the Millenium Falcon is a massive cliffhanger.

Yeah for me the whole point of Last Jedi was building tension by slowly destroying the Resistance and smashing  it down to its knees while stripping out the old stuff. This surely forces (pun entirely intended) the next film to do new stuff (I hope). For me it was a cracking cliffhanger underlined by hope coming from inspired stable boys.

Mmmm. Presumably where we go from here is changing hearts and minds, turning the galaxy against the FO's authoritarian stylings.  The theme established in TFA by Hux's rantings is that the Republic is 'a regime that acquiesces to disorder', appealing to a desire for what the First Order eponymously claims it represents.  Building a consensual resistance, rather than trying to win by blasting away at each in some anonymous corner of the galaxy, seems to be where TLJ leaves us.  If the FO can simultaneously build a planet-sized hyperspace weapon, a 60km-wide throne ship and a fleet of dreadnaughts and destroyers, it doesn't seem likely that Leia's Resistance was ever anything more than a symbolic rallying point for opposition: now that is a literal reality, and with the Republic decapitated only days before that opposition won't be political.  As the man in the know, Finn repeatedly tries to tell everyone in TFA that there is no hope of winning against the FO: TLJ ends with that hope, although not in the way we expected.

I finished watching the movie with the phrase "what the hell happens next?" on my lips. That's a cliffhanger for me.

My worry would be that it's JJ Abrams that gets to answer that question.
 
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: von Boom 28 December, 2017, 12:05:27 PM
Musical. Episode IX will be a musical, bound to be.

The remnants of the resistance decide to take up their cause by infiltrating FO Theatre Troop and through the medium of song and dance change the hearts and minds of everyone in the FO. Kylo and Rey perform a Force dance at the end and everyone is happy, and everything is nice.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 28 December, 2017, 12:12:09 PM
In retrospect, "let go of the past" is less a delusion on the part of someone making a film featuring characters, plots and visuals from 40 year-old movies and more a desperate plea from the company to come back for the next one, because without the original characters a lot of people have a jumping-off point for Star Wars, while others will probably have a jumping-off point from the PR campaign looking to turn being a Star Wars fan into the equivalent of being a skinhead.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Modern Panther 28 December, 2017, 12:30:18 PM
There's no way that Luke is Darth Vader's son. it just ruined the whole film for me.

The moments of comedy - confusing the besides with the old "I've captured a Wookie" trick - were a bit hit and miss.

The character of Boba Fett was woefully underused - such great potential, but reduced to a supporting character.  I'm sure though, that they'll be at the forefront of the third film in the series. Also looking forward to Vader realising the error of his ways and being brought to the light side by Yoda.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Link Prime 28 December, 2017, 12:38:12 PM
There's no way that Luke is a depressed coward it just ruined the whole film for me.

Nail head; meet Hammer.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 28 December, 2017, 12:42:44 PM
In retrospect, "let go of the past" is less a delusion on the part of someone making a film featuring characters, plots and visuals from 40 year-old movies and more a desperate plea from the company to come back for the next one, because without the original characters a lot of people have a jumping-off point for Star Wars, while others will probably have a jumping-off point from the PR campaign looking to turn being a Star Wars fan into the equivalent of being a skinhead.


What's the line about being a skinhead all about?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) 28 December, 2017, 12:44:31 PM
The ninth film will end on a handshake. Balance will be brought to the Force, to the galaxy, and there will be no need for further war. It will all end on peace, not a "victory" for the resistance or a "defeat" for the First Order.

SBT
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 28 December, 2017, 01:55:02 PM
What's the line about being a skinhead all about?

I offer skinhead as an alternative to the over-used "nazi".  Star Wars fans have effectively been turned into straw men hate figures for the high crime of giving a shit about Star Wars but not always articulating their frustrations with the new films particularly well.

This is not to say there aren't some who are just plain wrong, tho.  Instead of linking to one of those, I'll link to game streamer Shaun&Jen shitting on an anti-feminist tit's particularly dumbass interpretation of The Force Awakens (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iqN68PejEc).
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Magnetica 28 December, 2017, 07:45:25 PM
I saw it with the wife and kids yesterday. They liked it.

Me: I 'm not so sure. I thought it was too long and a big contributor to that was the casino planet sequence, which turned out to be pretty irrelevant to the outcome anyway.

I had been avoiding everything on the Internet about it and have now caught up on the last 22 pages of this thread and some other Internet reviews. One in particular described it as the "worst Star Wars film ever", largely on the basis of how Luke acted, Leia's "Mary Poppins" style floating through space, that Rey, with no training can now defeat Luke and levitate rocks and that Poe's actions were largely harmful to the outcome.

Most of that actually didn't bother me (apart from how Leia survived being sucked out into space.)

No what bothered me with it, in no particular order were:

a) it was way too long
b) the jokey bits set a completely different tone to all previous Star Wars films
c) the way Luke just tossed the light sabre over the cliff, which pretty much said to me "all that stuff that happen in TFA was a waste of time"
d) how Snoke thinks it is a good idea to humiliate his commanders in front of all their bridge crew. Yes we have seen Darth Vader do that, notably in ANH, but that was in a "senior leadership" meeting, not in front of everyone. My point is, it must make it really hard for the commander to lead from then on.
e) how the FO were unable to either catch up to the Rebels or destroy their shields - pursuing them conveniently just out of range
f) the whole tracking them through hyperspace jumps was done in new BSG first
g) since when did Star Wars have hyperspace jumps anyway - it was described as travelling at "light speed" before (in ANH anyway - or ok "making the jump to light speed IIRC)
h) how such a small number of Rebels can make such a difference that the FO pays them so much attention
i) how we jumped into a James Bond movie in the middle third
j) how the vacuum of space didn't act correctly - when the bomber bay doors were opened, when Leia was let back onto the ship
k) how Ren's bomb inside the Rebel ship was enough to destroy most of the Rebel's fighters, but not enough to kill Poe or rip a massive hole in the hull.

I could probably go on, but I am sure most that won't matter a jot when I watch it again. Indeed I remember the thread about TFA complaining about all the coincidences that relied on. On subsequent viewings I just let that go...and indeed I think there are actually explanations for some of them anyway.

But mostly, I just thought it was, well, a bit boring. Which is not what a Star Wars movie should be. At the risk of heresy, I can accept some boring bits in say Blade Runner, but not Star Wars.

The other thing is, Luke's death had pretty much zero impact on me. Unlike Han's death - that was a real "I can't believe it moment". Whereas Luke had pretty much checked out from scene one, so when he did actually die, I didn't really care. And two days on from seeing it, that isn't what I think about when considering this film.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 28 December, 2017, 07:56:32 PM

j) how the vacuum of space didn't act correctly...


This annoys me in lots of science fiction films, even damned good ones like Aliens. It's called explosive decompression, not hurricane generation.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 28 December, 2017, 08:22:31 PM
Not sure why the bomb bay doors should bother anyone - look at the death star hangar with the falcon.

A force field that keeps the air in but lets solid objects in and out... same deal with the bombers.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: von Boom 28 December, 2017, 09:23:40 PM
I had more problem with the bombs themselves. They were falling like they would with at least 1G of gravity. That ship was big, but not nearly big enough for that kind of pull. They should have been missiles of some sort I thought.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 28 December, 2017, 09:30:16 PM
Thrusters/jets/ some kind of magnets.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 28 December, 2017, 09:41:01 PM
I had more problem with the bombs themselves. They were falling like they would with at least 1G of gravity. That ship was big, but not nearly big enough for that kind of pull. They should have been missiles of some sort I thought.

They had TIE Bombers bombing asteroids in The Empire Strikes Back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phGlo_TNDp0
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 28 December, 2017, 10:06:25 PM
About that Ironing (http://uproxx.com/movies/star-wars-the-last-jedi-hardware-wars-rian-johnson/) scene.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mister Pops 29 December, 2017, 12:28:30 AM
I don't expect Star Warrs to have proper space physics. If I want to see that kind of accuracy in a big Hollywood action sci-fi movie, I'll watch...

...

...

Nevermind.

Star Wars has always had ships that fly like WW2 Spitfires/Mustangs/Messcherschmitts. The Bombers were meant to be like Flying Fortresses or somesuch bombers. Having said that the plan to blow up the big ship was stupid, and that was kind of the point. It was meant to show Poe that big heroic sacrifice isn't always the best idea. Living to fight another day is more important, until Luke shows up and it isn't  important anymore.

Overall I'm not sure how I feel about this movie. I thought there were some good ideas and attempts at themes, like letting go of the past, playing the long game and learning from failure. All the main characters failed in their individual endeavours. Most of all Finn and Rose. They both failed to achieve their goal and failed to make me give a shit that they did. Their pointless side plot ultimately screwed the rebellion too. Rey failed to convert Ben, but I suppose she succeeded in getting Luke back in the fight, however briefly.

I liked Luke in this movie. He was weird and cranky and eccentric. It made sense, living on that wee island with a buncha Station from Bill&Ted dressed as nuns. Speaking of whom, I would have like to see them forming a magical circle around Luke at the end, like they were feeeding and reinforcing his power. Would have given them something to do beyond being the butt of a joke for Rey.

I also liked the visuals. Apart from Leia in space.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 29 December, 2017, 12:53:26 AM
I don't have a problem with anyone disliking TLJ, it's different from what's gone before, there's no law that says you have to like it because you liked the earlier stuff.  But I still struggle with the technical nitpicking, which often seems to me like searching for justification of pre-existing dislike in all the wrong places.

Strong precedents for the vacuum issue* and the concept of bombs in space are dealt with above, but I'd like to address the hyperspace tracking.  Tracking through hyperspace is the whole raison d'etre of the second half of ANH, and appears in AotC too, by way of devices attached to the respective ships.  Maul's arrival on Tatooine in TPM is presumably by similar means, effected by Darth Sidious who is also Senator for Naboo, where Padme's royal yacht originates. 

However, in TFA the FO locate the Resistance base on D'Qar by tracking Snap Wexley's reconnaissance fighter, presumably through hyperspace but without an attached beacon.  One might speculate that this new tech is a spinoff of the hyperspace research that created the Starkiller weapon, but 'hyperspace tracking' is also a filename in the Scarif archive in R1, so it may have a longer history.  Either way, tracking through hyperspace has been part of Star Wars since the beginning, and this particular technique has been well telegraphed.





*Leia's experience of vacuum is much closer to reality than many SF depictions - it's cold, and oxygen deprivation is what gets you, not the bulging and exploding beloved of comics and movies: and we've seen Jedi survive without oxygen in TPM.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mister Pops 29 December, 2017, 01:33:52 AM
I would call it a weak Discworld novel. There's good ideas and some flashes of brilliance, but it doesn't fully land.

And just like weak Discworld novels, you can be secure in the knowledge that there will be another next year.

At least that used to be the case.

I fuckin' miss Pratchett...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Rusty 29 December, 2017, 01:52:37 AM
I had more problem with the bombs themselves. They were falling like they would with at least 1G of gravity. That ship was big, but not nearly big enough for that kind of pull. They should have been missiles of some sort I thought.

They had TIE Bombers bombing asteroids in The Empire Strikes Back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phGlo_TNDp0
Yeah, but those were proton bombs that were fired directly down into the target, not dropped.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 29 December, 2017, 01:58:15 AM
Yeah, but those were proton bombs that were fired directly down into the target, not dropped.

I'm sure Wookieepedia will soon create an online reference, if it hasn't all ready, to explain how TLJ's specific space-bombs work in the way the films never do.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 29 December, 2017, 02:55:32 AM
Can we assume that since Luke can force-project to specific locations anywhere in the galaxy that he also mentally navigated his hyper-space jumps to Ahch-To without the necessity of an astromech hooked into his X-Wing?

If so, it would mean R2D2 never went to Ahch-To with him (if R2 had gone, how did he get back to D'Qar with no ship?) and Luke didn't purposely leave maps or clues behind for people to find him – which never made sense because he was in seclusion and didn't want to be found.

Possibly R2 originally had the complete map but Luke had the "lost" section of the map erased from his memory and the Resistance found the missing information independently – as seen in The Force Awakens.

Or the simpler answer is Luke had another astromech that's since become a rusted barbecue outside Luke's hut.


These are the important things that keep me up at night.


(http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/cinemania-cdn/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/01184416/jedi01.jpg)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: IndigoPrime 29 December, 2017, 01:44:28 PM
This is a really interesting take on the film (http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/12/28/the-last-jedi-unlearning-what-we-have-learned), primarily talking about watching movies in a different way. It certainly sheds a new life on the notion of the side quest and the million-to-one shot, along with the nature of what TLJ is trying to make about the ideas of rebellion and power.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 29 December, 2017, 02:02:59 PM
Very interesting, thanks for the link.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Dandontdare 29 December, 2017, 03:26:17 PM
a very interesting read, I think he nails it.

(and a predictably bunch of snidey fanwank repsonses in the comments - I liked the more ironic ones such as "The Last Jedi broke my Jabba playset when I was a kid. It lost my Max Rebo figure too.")
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Bolt-01 29 December, 2017, 03:48:38 PM
Ooh, good link IP- a nice read.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 29 December, 2017, 05:12:56 PM
It's a film.
And not a very good one.
It's ok.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mattofthespurs 29 December, 2017, 05:13:13 PM
Waits...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: I, Cosh 29 December, 2017, 05:45:48 PM
Saw the film last night without having seen any footage and knowing as close to nothing as possible. Have now spent an incredulous couple of hours reading through posts on this thread since the release date.

The film was clearly too long - I actually thought it was going to end after the confrontation in the throne room - but was significantly better than I expected it to be.

The Luke/Rey relationship was great. Basically any scene with Mark Hammill was gold and the I thought the climax to both his story and the subtext of letting go of the old was fantastically done.

Poe's storyline was very unexpected in making him the fuckwit responsible for losing most of the fleet. Perhaps it could have done with a bit more realisation on his part to sell it fully.

Of the new generation, Finn is the one that I could happily see excised. He contributes absolutely nothing of any worth beyond bloating the running time. Having rewatched The Force Awakens for the first time last week and found it almost completely devoid of any charm, this seems to be his specialty. I'm choosing to believe that Benicio del Toro's character is a crossover from Sicario.

Loved the penguin things.

FWIW, my girlfriend's favourite parts were: the penguin things, the Funkelfüchse (uncharacteristically pretty German translation literally means "sparkling foxes"), the quiet after the destruction of the ships, the red trails on the sand. No mention of anything related to story or characters you might notice.
g) since when did Star Wars have hyperspace jumps anyway - it was described as travelling at "light speed" before (in ANH anyway - or ok "making the jump to light speed IIRC)
Since about 23 minutes into the first film?
"Travelling through hyperspace ain't like dustin' crops, boy!"

Of course, the bigger epistemological flaw here is that Luke and his family are, of course, moisture farmers so the idea of cropdusting is unlikely to be commonplace.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 29 December, 2017, 07:27:05 PM
I'd have to watch it again, but from what I recall...

if Poe had obeyed orders, isn't it likely the Dreadnought would have followed them through space, and destroyed the whole lot (or at least the capital ships).

Didn't his disobedience save the fleet?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Colin YNWA 29 December, 2017, 08:31:39 PM
This is a really interesting take on the film (http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/12/28/the-last-jedi-unlearning-what-we-have-learned), primarily talking about watching movies in a different way. It certainly sheds a new life on the notion of the side quest and the million-to-one shot, along with the nature of what TLJ is trying to make about the ideas of rebellion and power.

The article in this link absolutely nails it for me. Spot on. Thanks for sharing.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Dandontdare 29 December, 2017, 08:38:41 PM
I'd have to watch it again, but from what I recall...

if Poe had obeyed orders, isn't it likely the Dreadnought would have followed them through space, and destroyed the whole lot (or at least the capital ships).

Didn't his disobedience save the fleet?

IIRC No - the fleet was destroyed anyway. The plan (that he was unaware of) was to get everyone down to the secret base in shuttles without the pursuers noticing so that they would destroy (almost) empty ships when they inevitably caught up with them. If anything, he CAUSES the massive loss of life, because his stupid side plot to find the codebreaker ends up with Del Toro revealing this plan to the FO (some people have said "if Poe didn't know, how could he reveal it", but del Toro is clearly eavesdropping in the scene where Poe finds out)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 29 December, 2017, 08:44:57 PM
I'd have to watch it again, but from what I recall...

if Poe had obeyed orders, isn't it likely the Dreadnought would have followed them through space, and destroyed the whole lot (or at least the capital ships).

Didn't his disobedience save the fleet?

I don't think Poe's disobedience helped at all, his plan with Finn and Rose ended with Benicio Del Toro selling out the evacuation plan.

I still dont get why the plan was so much better when we find out Laura Dern is staying behind. Wouldnt they have left the engines on in the main ship anyway? She just carried on course right? Poe thought it was suicide before, did he assume they'd shut off the engines and draw attention to the escaping ships?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Magnetica 29 December, 2017, 08:49:13 PM
This is a really interesting take on the film (http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/12/28/the-last-jedi-unlearning-what-we-have-learned), primarily talking about watching movies in a different way. It certainly sheds a new life on the notion of the side quest and the million-to-one shot, along with the nature of what TLJ is trying to make about the ideas of rebellion and power.

The article in this link absolutely nails it for me. Spot on. Thanks for sharing.

Yes I also think that is a good take. The thing that I found the worst about the film was that it was too long and I blamed the casino planet sequence for that, but it’s a good point - not everything the heroes do has to be successful.

On reflection and taking onboard the replies to my initial post I think I will be more well disposed to it on a 2nd viewing. Unfortunately that probably won’t be until it comes out on DVD.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 29 December, 2017, 09:41:15 PM
The article seems a little short on objective criticism, and can't quite escape the weight of its premise being that the film's failings are actually its strengths.  Rogue One fans have been saying that for a year now and it hasn't been panning out too well.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 29 December, 2017, 10:56:25 PM
I would call it a weak Discworld novel. There's good ideas and some flashes of brilliance, but it doesn't fully land.

And just like weak Discworld novels, you can be secure in the knowledge that there will be another next year.

At least that used to be the case.

I fuckin' miss Pratchett...


Same here (I'm the one on the left).
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 29 December, 2017, 10:58:11 PM
Yeah, but those were proton bombs that were fired directly down into the target, not dropped.

I'm sure Wookieepedia will soon create an online reference, if it hasn't all ready, to explain how TLJ's specific space-bombs work in the way the films never do.


Here you go (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/MG-100_StarFortress_SF-17)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 29 December, 2017, 11:14:32 PM
For feck's sake, there was artificial gravity in the bomber (ebidence: Paige's fall), the bombs accelerated under that gravity as normal and then proceeded at a constant velocity towards the target, as per Newton. There could be a dozen reasons that they weren't independently powered, but the most obvious ones would be that they were too volatile  (one lucky hit took out almost the entire squadron), and that there were about 1,000 of them per ship  (cost).

Anyway, had a second viewing today, in glorious IMAX, and I'm happy to say it is now by far my favourite SW film since 1983. Flaws abound, no question, but such heart, such emotion, such great creatures, such spectacle, such breadth. Such ambition

This could be the last ever SW film and I'd call it a fitting capstone.

EDIT: balls, I see Sheridan already linked to someone else's more elaborate fanon.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Jim_Campbell 29 December, 2017, 11:27:52 PM
as per Newton.

That’s fair, but the physics of the pursuit to Crait seemed pretty iffy. Spaceships don’t slow down and stop when they run out of fuel, so they only explanation for the relative speeds/distance between the ships during the pursuit is that all those ships, rebel and Imperial, were all accelerating at exactly the same speed under thrust, maintaining a constant-ish distance between them. Clearly, the rebel ships weren’t faster than the Imperial fleet, and it seems slightly improbable that a fleet of that size couldn’t summon a squadron of TIE fighters capable of closing the gap…
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 29 December, 2017, 11:41:55 PM
I'd have to watch it again, but from what I recall...

if Poe had obeyed orders, isn't it likely the Dreadnought would have followed them through space, and destroyed the whole lot (or at least the capital ships).

Didn't his disobedience save the fleet?

IIRC No - the fleet was destroyed anyway. The plan (that he was unaware of) was to get everyone down to the secret base in shuttles without the pursuers noticing so that they would destroy (almost) empty ships when they inevitably caught up with them. If anything, he CAUSES the massive loss of life, because his stupid side plot to find the codebreaker ends up with Del Toro revealing this plan to the FO (some people have said "if Poe didn't know, how could he reveal it", but del Toro is clearly eavesdropping in the scene where Poe finds out)

with that Dreadnought still active, the fleet and the main cruiser would have likely been destroyed way before they'd got to the secret base, or launched the transports or even got to his and Maz's plan to find the codebreaker.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 29 December, 2017, 11:44:07 PM
According to Straczynski's Law, all space vehicles travel at the speed of plot...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 29 December, 2017, 11:46:34 PM
For feck's sake, there was artificial gravity in the bomber (ebidence: Paige's fall), the bombs accelerated under that gravity as normal and then proceeded at a constant velocity towards the target, as per Newton.

EDIT: balls, I see Sheridan already linked to someone else's more elaborate fanon.

I'm not sure the ship's gravity way would've worked anyway, wouldn't the lowest bombs have had a briefer window for acceleration, dropping for a shorter distance before they leave the influence of the ship's gravity? the top bombs would've crashed into the lower ones on the way out.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 29 December, 2017, 11:48:31 PM
Magnetic field launch, similar to a railgun but at much lower energies.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 29 December, 2017, 11:50:00 PM
No doubt the slow chase is a contrivance, but no more than any other - why didn't some of the fleet pursuing the Falcon in TESB jump ahead a bit and box them in? Why didbt Vader get in his figter and blow the crap out of them? Or to put it another way, who gives a flying feck.

As to the support ships slowing down and tumbling, I can only presume that everyone was constantly accelerating and what we see as slowing is relative to that acceleration.    Equally, from the way that all SW ships decelerate and turn in real-space (from day one), it is clear that there is some other force at work other than simple linear thrust.  I've always been happy with the aetheric rudder idea floated in the EU, that control surfaces on spaceships interact with some form of field (sub-space? Hyperspace itself? The Force? The luminiferous aether?) that allows them to brake and bank with no sign of appropriate retros or attitude thrusters.

Why we're suddenly keen to apply real world or even  SF physics to SW at all is completely beyond me anyway.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 29 December, 2017, 11:52:40 PM

As for feckin' lightsabers, jaysus who thought that was a good idea.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 29 December, 2017, 11:56:59 PM
I can buy a souped up freighter being able to outfly star destroyers, but frigates/capital ships all moving in a slow line and not one of the FO can jump ahead to cut them off? Bah.

Also, was there any reason for the fleet to not just split up, rather than being picked off in an easy to shoot straight line?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 29 December, 2017, 11:59:32 PM
I didnt even think about it when watching the film, I just assumed the bombs were powered somehow. I'd look into putting thrusters with a bit more grunt on those bombers though :D
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 30 December, 2017, 12:02:37 AM
There were three ships and umpteen Star Destroyers - it would just have been three pursuits instead of one, and this way evacuation to the cruiser was feasible. Plus they were all aiming for the only convenient hidey hole in sublight range. Up until Rose and Finn worked out how they were being tracked, they had to assume all of the ships could be tracked.

My problem with the sequence is that everyone seems to have forgotten that the FO tracked a lone starfighter through hyperspace just the previous day.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Jim_Campbell 30 December, 2017, 12:13:07 AM
Why we're suddenly keen to apply real world or even  SF physics to SW at all is completely beyond me anyway.

I’m not! It’s that the thing doesn’t make sense within its own terms — if the rebel ships were faster, they should have been outpacing the Imperial ships. I’ve long said that I don’t go looking for plot holes, and long bemoaned the fact that SF fans, in particular, have a tendency to spot holes where none exist, but this really didn’t seem to hold together.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 30 December, 2017, 12:15:05 AM
Seemed more than three at the time.

I'd rather have had some active saboteurs on both the FO and resistance side, it might have given that air of paranoia and people throwing spanners in the works rather than just being dumb.

I wouldn't have minded seeing it all ending up on Canto Bight rather than Crait, seems like that might have brought the war home to the elite rather than giant bunnies running amok.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Jim_Campbell 30 December, 2017, 12:19:12 AM
Up until Rose and Finn worked out how they were being tracked, they had to assume all of the ships could be tracked.

Was I the only one who thought the repeated close-ups of the ultimately not-very-significant beacon-wrist-thingie was leading up to a revelation that that was how they were tracking the fleet? I was fully expecting an anguished debate about cutting Rey adrift to save the fleet but, in the end, it just seemed to get forgotten about…
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 30 December, 2017, 12:24:57 AM
I definitely thought it was going to be important, I guess ultimately it was just to explain how Finn could be going to find her?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 30 December, 2017, 01:24:38 AM
Up until Rose and Finn worked out how they were being tracked, they had to assume all of the ships could be tracked.

Was I the only one who thought the repeated close-ups of the ultimately not-very-significant beacon-wrist-thingie was leading up to a revelation that that was how they were tracking the fleet? I was fully expecting an anguished debate about cutting Rey adrift to save the fleet but, in the end, it just seemed to get forgotten about…

I certainly thought there would be a traitor making use of that beacon somehow (Holdo most likely, or even Rose) but then that confounding of expectations remains something I really enjoyed.

 As to the beacon itself, it is pretty significant: when Finn grabs it after Leia is flash-frozen, it prompts his attempted desertion. He then passes it to Poe when he heads for Canto Bight, establishing that he isn't running away again.

And finally, R2 uses its twin to precisely locate the survivors on Crait.

Symbolically it stands in for Finn and Rey's bond, which predates their involvement with the Resistance, and which is still Finn's main motivation coming into the film.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 30 December, 2017, 01:36:46 AM
Why we're suddenly keen to apply real world or even  SF physics to SW at all is completely beyond me anyway.

I’m not! It’s that the thing doesn’t make sense within its own terms — if the rebel ships were faster, they should have been outpacing the Imperial ships. I’ve long said that I don’t go looking for plot holes, and long bemoaned the fact that SF fans, in particular, have a tendency to spot holes where none exist, but this really didn’t seem to hold together.

A fair comment, but I still think there are equal internal inconsistencies in how space travel works in most of the other films that folk (not necessarily Jim) seem happy enough to accept.

My personal beef about the chase is the imposed timescale, which has Rey's experiences on Ahch-To compressed into about a day and two nights, and Finn's mission to Canto Bight to a matter of hours. That's actually worse than the official two-day timescale of Revenge of the Sith, and equally unnecessary.

But I'm happy to overlook these flaws because I thought it was a fantastically rich and enjoyable movie.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 30 December, 2017, 02:05:16 AM
I was particularly pleased that Rey isn't the offspring of royalty / force masters, as seems to be the case in so much fiction.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 30 December, 2017, 02:20:12 AM
I was particularly pleased that Rey isn't the offspring of royalty / force masters, as seems to be the case in so much fiction.

I feel like theres a good chance Kylo was lying about that to be honest. Plot-wise I'm not exactly waiting with bated breath for the next one, so I'm clinging tightly to my theory that theres more to that particular mystery!!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 30 December, 2017, 02:54:31 AM
I was particularly pleased that Rey isn't the offspring of royalty / force masters, as seems to be the case in so much fiction.

It was the only sane resolution to a poorly thought-out setup,  but I was still unreasonably pleased by the implications.  Somebody on twitter referred it to as de-Potterising the GFFA,  and it's an image that has stuck with me. Anything that opens up SW is good, but pushing back against the inherited-superpowers theme that developed from RotJ  is even better.  In ANH Ben offers to teach Han the ways of the Force, implying that a Jedi Dad,  never mind a virgin birth in your ancestry, wasn't actually a requirement. Good to see hints of that again.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 30 December, 2017, 03:20:53 AM
  In ANH Ben offers to teach Han the ways of the Force, implying that a Jedi Dad,  never mind a virgin birth in your ancestry, wasn't actually a requirement. Good to see hints of that again.

Lucas's concept of the Force was much more appealing and universal back then.

REVENGE OF THE JEDI STORY CONFERENCE TRANSCRIPT, JULY 13 to JULY 17, 1981

Kasdan: The Force was available to anyone who could hook into it?

Lucas: Yes, everybody can do it.

Kasdan: Not just the Jedi?

Lucas: It’s just the Jedi who take the time to do it.

Marquand: They use it as a technique.

Lucas: Like yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also like karate. Also another misconception is that Yoda teaches Jedi, but he is like a guru; he doesn’t go out and fight anybody.

Kasdan: A Jedi Master is a Jedi isn’t he?

Lucas: Well, he is a teacher, not a real Jedi. Understand that?

Kasdan: I understand what you’re saying, but I can’t believe it; I am in shock.

Lucas: It’s true, absolutely true, not that it makes any difference to the story.

Kasdan: You mean he wouldn’t be any good in a fight?

Lucas: Not with Darth Vader he wouldn’t.

Kasdan: I accept it, but I don’t like it.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steven Denton 30 December, 2017, 11:30:05 AM
Why we're suddenly keen to apply real world or even  SF physics to SW at all is completely beyond me anyway.

I’m not! It’s that the thing doesn’t make sense within its own terms — if the rebel ships were faster, they should have been outpacing the Imperial ships. I’ve long said that I don’t go looking for plot holes, and long bemoaned the fact that SF fans, in particular, have a tendency to spot holes where none exist, but this really didn’t seem to hold together.

A fair comment, but I still think there are equal internal inconsistencies in how space travel works in most of the other films that folk (not necessarily Jim) seem happy enough to accept.

My personal beef about the chase is the imposed timescale, which has Rey's experiences on Ahch-To compressed into about a day and two nights, and Finn's mission to Canto Bight to a matter of hours. That's actually worse than the official two-day timescale of Revenge of the Sith, and equally unnecessary.

But I'm happy to overlook these flaws because I thought it was a fantastically rich and enjoyable movie.

When people lose suspension of disbelief everything they would otherwise forgive becomes obvious and vexing. It’s never a defence that inconsistency’s are forgiven in other films, but the plot or physics or logic problems individually May not be the root problem.

It’s also worth noting that it’s easy to skip over a convenient short hand (like space fighters working like planes) but a lot harder to skip over a major plot motivators

Also with mentioning people still go on about the Exhaust port. 
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Magnetica 30 December, 2017, 11:45:07 AM
Wasn’t the exhaust port part of the deliberate flaw put in by Galen Erso?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 30 December, 2017, 11:58:38 AM
Wasn’t the exhaust port part of the deliberate flaw put in by Galen Erso?
Yup.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 30 December, 2017, 11:58:55 AM
I get Steven's point,  but I still suspect that losing suspension of disbelief comes BEFORE you start finding the relative motion of bodies in space a problem.  My contention is that people pick up on these things because they already dislike the film: it's an effect,  rather than a cause.  Otherwise ghastly nonsense like the time reversal in Superman the Movie would spoil the film for basically everyone,  when in fact most people just laugh and carry on enjoying the film.  Hence things like the different reactions to the bombing sequences in TESB and TLJ.

The plot is that the FO can't catch the (as stated) smaller and faster rebel fleet at sublight speeds, which really requires no more suspension of disbelief than the Death Star's inability to move to a decent firing position at Yavin; just as Paige and Leia's non-decompressing ship interiors require no more than the Death Star hangar bay,  or indeed everyone strolling about in the atmosphere of a gas giant.  We should be able to pick holes - and offer fan rationalisations - without it spoiling a fantasy film for us.

But I appreciate I'm putting words in people's mouths here, and worse reading their minds.  My genuine frustration comes not from the largely sane criticism here, from from the broader internet dogpile, which I believe has nothing whatsoever to do with inconsistent physics. This film is far closer to what I have wanted from SW since RotJ that it bothers me that reaction may push Disney in another direction entirely, in the same way Lucas took the prequels into a dull and boring cul-de-sac of misery because everyone hated Jar Jar.

We should be talking about why everyone bangs on about God in the film instead.  There's a nitpick I can get behind.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steven Denton 30 December, 2017, 12:11:01 PM
I get Steven's point,  but I still suspect that losing suspension of disbelief comes BEFORE you start finding the relative motion of bodies in space a problem.  My contention is that people pick up on these things because they already dislike the film: it's an effect,  rather than a cause.  Otherwise ghastly nonsense like the time reversal in Superman the Movie would spoil the film for basically everyone,  when in fact most people just laugh and carry on enjoying the film.  Hence things like the different reactions to the bombing sequences in TESB and TLJ.

The plot is that the FO can't catch the (as stated) smaller and faster rebel fleet at sublight speeds, which really requires no more suspension of disbelief than the Death Star's inability to move to a decent firing position at Yavin; just as Paige and Leia's non-decompressing ship interiors require no more than the Death Star hangar bay,  or indeed everyone strolling about in the atmosphere of a gas giant.  We should be able to pick holes - and offer fan rationalisation's - without it spoiling a film for us.

But I appreciate I'm putting words in people's mouths here, and worse reading their minds.  My genuine frustration comes not from the largely sane criticism here, from from the broader internet dogpile, which I believe has nothing whatsoever to do with inconsistent physics.

We should be talking about why everyone bangs on about God in the film instead.  There's a nitpick I can get behind.

If you lose an audience they will pick holes, if you present too many holes you’ll lose an audience and they will pick holes. For some people, maybe they are willing to suspend disbelief for hundreds of huge flaws and holes but what may seem like a relatively common plot contrivance could be a red line and suddenly they are done (that’s something that happens with me quite a bit) my only real point is that not only do we not know why each person lost their suspension of disbelief but the likelihood is they don’t either. Most people don’t analyse themselves or their relationship with fiction deeply enough. All we do know is the film lost them and wasn’t strong enough to win them back. And by them I mean me.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 30 December, 2017, 01:27:52 PM
All l we do know is the film lost them and wasn’t strong enough to win them back. And by them I mean me.

And that's a perfectly sensible position,  if unfortunate. I do understand the problem: RotS  lost me completely with Padme's ludicrous continuity-busting and incomprehensible death scene,  whereupon everything else about the film retrospectively unravelled for me,  right down to Yoda and Obi-Wan referring to Palpatine as the Emperor at the same moment he's declaring his Empire in the Senate. It remains my most disliked SW film,  a feeling that only grows each time I watch it,  but I'm always aware that this all starts with the failure of a single scene at the end of the movie.

I'm currently more invested in the question of why Poe waved Rey goodbye in TFA supposedly before he met her for the first time in TLJ.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steven Denton 30 December, 2017, 01:37:15 PM
We’ve all waved to a stranger in a steam train before, it probably just seemed like the polite thing to do.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 30 December, 2017, 01:39:07 PM
Padme died of a broken heart, TB.

My contention is that people pick up on these things because they already dislike the film: it's an effect,  rather than a cause.

While I agree that this is a Thing That Happens, I think with TLJ you have a bit of an outlier in that there are a lot of people who were clearly genuinely psyched for it and the film just lost them.
In years to come, I suspect that we'll see consensus on "Hold the line/Yo Momma" being the series' shark jump moment.

Keeping this nonsense going: why don't the bombers just fly horizontally and point their keels toward their target if they create their own gravity?  Use them as missiles, sort of thing?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 30 December, 2017, 01:42:02 PM
We’ve all waved to a stranger in a steam train before, it probably just seemed like the polite thing to do.

"You've never heard of the Mallard? She's the engine that made the East Coast Mainline run in 12 furlongs".
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 30 December, 2017, 01:52:47 PM
In years to come, I suspect that we'll see consensus on "Hold the line/Yo Momma" being the series' shark jump moment.

Whereas I thought that exchange - and the whole opening sequence - was utterly great,  my favourite space battle since Endor, character-anchored and clearly choreographed. I loved the sustained undermining of the 'coolness' of evil,  both from Poe and from Ade Edmondson's character and the dreadnought Captain. Hux may have the natty uniforms and the megaships, but he and his kind are really just pompous Peter Principle incompetents whose subordinates (and superiors) loathe them.  Gleeson is more than a bit Panto, but I relished every sleight,  however broad.   
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 30 December, 2017, 02:03:26 PM
Absolutely Steve, with regards to plot holes or inconsistencies, I barrel past minor things like the science behind their bombs, or perhaps anachronistic humour, but if the main plot in an important scene doesn't make sense to me I don't really have a choice in reacting negatively to that. Suddenly I'm not following and the characters actions and motivations are undermined. And you're right, once you're on the wrong side of a film for whatever reason, it's myriad problems can start to congeal for you. Something that was perhaps a minor plot hole before (story related, not bomb science n stuff) now just compounds the criticism. I got most of the way through before I realised it had completely lost me, I realised when I was admiring the pattern on the ceiling of the cinema briefly.

I think Leia should be an ice lolly in space, Finn should be fused to the wreckage of a miniature Death Star cannon and Luke shouldn't have been a crybaby but that's all subjective, I like talking about the plot holes because they are less contentious things to criticise as I think they're legitimate errors in the writing.

Lucas took the prequels into a dull and boring cul-de-sac of misery because everyone hated Jar Jar.

they were in said cul-de-sac from the get go! :D
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steven Denton 30 December, 2017, 02:03:59 PM
Your assessment of the character is fine but, We have already had admeral piett and he wasn’t played as Captain Hook on Bournemouth pier so we’ve already seen this can work way better.

In a film of good to excellent performances Hux stands out a mile as simply awful. In my opinion he’s the only bad performance, and he’s not just a little off, he’s way off.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steven Denton 30 December, 2017, 02:14:44 PM
I found the on hold bit funny though, even if it was very family guy.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Dandontdare 30 December, 2017, 02:23:44 PM
Ade Edmondson's character

Thought this may be a joke till I googled it - how did I miss Vivyan/Eddie on the dreadnaught? According to Google, many people did!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 30 December, 2017, 02:40:09 PM
He's bloody brilliant in it too. And while it's not my catch, his opening line "we've caught them in the middle of their evacuation" is so Eddie Hitler it may be the cleverest thing in the film.  I pray there's an outtake of that where he mugs to camera.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: IndigoPrime 30 December, 2017, 02:42:58 PM
https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/942767862367731713

And in some ways it's odd people think this is so odd – some of the UK's best actors are comedians.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 30 December, 2017, 04:23:01 PM
https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/942767862367731713

And in some ways it's odd people think this is so odd – some of the UK's best actors are comedians.

Great twitter thread, cheers for the link IP!  Now I see where Gleeson was going with Hux too... Grand Moff of the Haltemprice Sector, I presume.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 31 December, 2017, 01:29:29 AM
https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/942767862367731713

And in some ways it's odd people think this is so odd – some of the UK's best actors are comedians.

You'll say people like David Jason, Hugh Laurie and Robbie Coltrane can play serious characters next!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mister Pops 31 December, 2017, 03:50:36 AM
https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/942767862367731713

And in some ways it's odd people think this is so odd – some of the UK's best actors are comedians.

You'll say people like David Jason, Hugh Laurie and Robbie Coltrane can play serious characters next!

Sure weren't they all secretly Stormtroopers in the new movies?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Rara Avis 31 December, 2017, 11:14:06 AM
I saw this a while back and it was a solid 5/10 for me. I went in with no expectations and hardly any knowledge of what to expect. I was happy to let the story go wherever but ultimately felt it didn't live up to the promise of TFA (which I loved).

The opening scene was just ridiculous and consequently I found the first half of the film to be ridiculous. Poe who was a standout character in TFA gets turned into an absolute meathead and ultimately the cause of the destruction of the rebel fleet. Later he is responsibe for a mutiny against the rebellion command and they wonder why they're not winning? In R1 people die in order to help the rebellion and yet this beautiful fool throws a temper tantrum and disobeys a direct command any time he doesn't get his own way. And gets away with it ...

After spending so much time building up the relationship between Rey and Finn, he is side lined to go off on some ludicrous expedition which ultimately fails. Then when he decides to sacrifice himself for the greater good and crash into that weapon thing at the end he's knocked out of the way by Rose who they have created in order to free up Rey for some Kylo Ren action in the next movie. His depiction as a PTSD suffering cog in the imperial machine and his subsequent desertion of the FO was actually really original and he deserves way better than to be turned into a comedic prop.

Then we have the death of Snoke... ok it lead to one of the best fight scenes in the movie but c'mon...
Not much else to say about this I found it weird that he chose to lounge about all day in his open chested gold robe with guards that resemble sex toys ..

Not much critcism of Luke and Leia other than he acts like a thwarted child for quite a bit of his story arc while her indulgence of Poe was baffling. No wonder no one came to her aid when called.

The second half of the movie that focused on the Rey / Ren story gave the movie some much needed gravitas and really turned it around. The overall arc of the trilogy would appear to be his redemption with the assistance of Rey. I don't believe that her parentage truly has been revealed but if it has .. well that was just disappointing. Not that she needs to be the child of someone important, but like the sudden death of Snoke and even Admiral Ackbar's sad and offscreen demise, it doesn't do the story or character justice.

I have not read through this entire thread but I see some of you are discussing the technicalities of some of the events in far more detail than I can go into. My only observations here, which may have been discussed already were the rebel fleet's crisis involving the need for a space petrol station and if the lead ship had no fuel how was the final hyperspace jump carried out when they should not have had enough fuel to do it. Clearly Laura Dern's character is expendable so her sacrifice is allowed, improbable though it may have been.

So overall it was an ok movie but I don't understand how the film makers can think they'll get away with these gaping plot holes. They can say 'oh it's just a kids movie' but they know kids aren't the only ones watching them and a bit more thought and some better writing would have elevated this mediocre movie from meah to eh!



: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Trout 31 December, 2017, 04:13:16 PM
He's bloody brilliant in it too. And while it's not my catch, his opening line "we've caught them in the middle of their evacuation" is so Eddie Hitler it may be the cleverest thing in the film.  I pray there's an outtake of that where he mugs to camera.

He had me grinning the whole time. I wish Rik had lived to be sarcastic about it.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 31 December, 2017, 04:57:52 PM
I saw this a while back and it was a solid 5/10 for me. I went in with
So overall it was an ok movie but I don't understand how the film makers can think they'll get away with these gaping plot holes.

Hyperspace fuel and realspace fuel are probably very different things for what are entirely different engines.  See TESB and TPM.  Did you mention any other supposed glaring plot holes there?

In the end Poe's destruction oF the dreadnought probably saved the Resistance - if it had been left intact it could have obliterated the Crait base, shield or no shield,  just as it did D'Qar.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Richard 31 December, 2017, 06:12:35 PM
if the lead ship had no fuel how was the final hyperspace jump carried out when they should not have had enough fuel to do it.
They said all along that they had enough fuel to make one jump, just not enough to make a second one. They made one jump. No plot hole.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 31 December, 2017, 06:43:59 PM
They should've jumped into the Mutara Nebula and looked up the FO ships' prefix codes whilst awaiting the arrival of Captain Jim...

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Richard 31 December, 2017, 06:54:28 PM
I saw it today and thought it was great. The best in the franchise since the first one, Episode IV.

I'm surprised by how negative the comments are about this film (although I shouldn't be, I suppose -- it seems that no matter how good a film is, people are determined to find plot holes and things to carp about).

One of them I don't even understand. Yes, Poe fucked up and got some of his comrades killed -- so what? That isn't a plot hole, that's a character making a mistake that anyone else in his position might have made. Just because he's one of the good guys means he can't make a mistake? I thought that the reveal of the scale of his error actually made an interesting plot turn. (Imagine if heroes in 2000AD never made mistakes. "The Moses Incident" would have been a very short and uneventful story if Johnny Alpha had left Moses where he was instead of taking him to see Malak Brood.)

So the x-wing fighters still move like aeroplanes even though they shouldn't? So what, they did that in the original films. If they hadn't done that in this film, you'd be moaning about how the makers of the new films had ignored the physics of the original trilogy. That's a point that they literally can't win -- damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Imagine if the studio shrugged their shoulders and said "fuck it, there's no pleasing these fans so we won't bother making episode IX." (I know they won't because of the money, but imagine if they did.) Would you like that? Mission accomplished? I doubt that's what anyone on this board really wants, but the mentality of the people who did that petition is mind-boggling.

Would the film really be improved by cutting out the casino and the alien horse chase? Why not just cut the whole thing down to 80 minutes? We only need the bare bones of the story, not all these sub-plots, secondary characters and action sequences. In fact the whole film should just have been Luke and Rey talking on an island. The spaceships just get in the way.  ::)

 
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 31 December, 2017, 07:59:20 PM
Poe didn't screw up as far as I can see.

He saved the fleet.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JLC 31 December, 2017, 07:59:28 PM
Would the film really be improved by cutting out the casino and the alien horse chase?
Yes. Because that whole plot line went nowhere & felt like something from the prequels. & there would have been no need for that plot if Holdo hadn't kept her plan secret for unknown reasons.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Richard 31 December, 2017, 08:09:38 PM
I assumed she just felt that she didn't have to explain herself to an unruly and recently demoted subordinate, but yes she could have avoided a lot of trouble if she'd just come clean.

Poe endangered the fleet, the plan would have worked perfectly if he hadn't sent Flynn to get the code breaker, which is what led to him telling Bernicio del Toro about the plan, which led to the transports being fired on as they left the cruiser.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 31 December, 2017, 08:11:13 PM
Not sure about it going nowhere, but did feel like it scuppered the ticking clock, with them caring more about giant bunnies and the evils of the elite than their rapidly exploding mates.

Depending on how it's shot, people on CGI creatures can leave me cold - this felt like another 'watching someone else play a game' like the Hobbit platformer.

It led to DJ spotting Holdo's plan (the one that involved no-one in the FO fleet looking at a window) and it led to the godawful Tiny Tim scene at the end.

It just highlighted the bits I hated and was preachy to boot.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 31 December, 2017, 08:19:49 PM
I assumed she just felt that she didn't have to explain herself to an unruly and recently demoted subordinate, but yes she could have avoided a lot of trouble if she'd just come clean.

Poe endangered the fleet, the plan would have worked perfectly if he hadn't sent Flynn to get the code breaker, which is what led to him telling Bernicio del Toro about the plan, which led to the transports being fired on as they left the cruiser.

If Poe hadn't disobeyed orders the Dreadnought would still have been able to track them through hyperspace, and it would have likely ended them before they even got to that point.

Poe and Maz's plan would have worked - it's not entirely their fault that Finn and Rose are fuck-ups.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 31 December, 2017, 08:48:14 PM
I just can't get my head around the idea that the Canto Bight bit was pointless. Far from it. It introduced a whole range of ideas and images that hadn't existed in SW before (movies that is, TCW explored a lot of this kind of thing), it gave us Rose's backstory, some character development for Finn, and as well as being a spectacle the bit with the Fathiers served as a metaphor for the whole struggle and our heroes' place in it.  'Saving what you love', driving 'a fist through the whole lousy beautiful town', bringing the hope of freedom to the enslaved and downtrodden - which, remember, was what L'il Ani promised to do in TPM and then never even tried (in the movies).   

Without Canto Bight, all we have in the movie is another isolated retreat planet (albeit beautifully realised), and a bunch of soldiers pounding on each other in space. 

With CB, we have a fantastic collection of new aliens to oogle, a magnificent recreation of that shot from Wings, a whole level of GFFA society we never knew existed, a new option presented to Finn (neither FO nor Rebellion, just 'don't join'), a chase through a brilliantly dressed cityscape, and some understanding of both the FO's wealth and the broader setting of the Star Wars themselves. 

We all complained that there was no context in TFA, we didn't get any idea of what the New Republic was, or how the Resistance fitted in, or where the FO came from: Canto Bight offers exactly that kind of fleshing-out of the story (albeit not those specific things), and sense of a larger galaxy beyond the 'splosions and 'sabres. 

No question that the movie is too long (and that the pacing and internal timing is a problem) but I think savings could be better made in some overlong speeches (Snoke, I'm looking at you), rather than this rather lovely-looking new world and its important themes.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 31 December, 2017, 08:57:00 PM
BAH: ...and the sidetrip is Finn & Rose's contact with one of the central points of the movie, 'failure, the best teacher is'.  Don't tell me it wasn't a great moment when Poe realised they'd failed, and then got zapped by Leia, and then DJ's betrayal, and then the escape transports getting blasted like gungans in a bongo....  That was some tense cinema, for me at least.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Colin YNWA 31 December, 2017, 09:07:44 PM
I just can't get my head around the idea that the Canto Bight bit was pointless....

I'll not quote it all as you can read it yourself. Just suffice to say as ever 'What Tordelback said' and we can all leave happy.

I loved this sequence, so fresh for the franchise.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Mister Pops 31 December, 2017, 10:05:21 PM
I haven't read the whole thread here, but has anyone mentioned how good Mark Hamill was? Possibly the best performance in any Star Wars movie ever. If I were to rate his performance to his in the original trilogy I would have to use a logarithmic scale
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 31 December, 2017, 11:14:26 PM
I just can't get my head around the idea that the Canto Bight bit was pointless.

Little in the film is pointless; there are set-ups and pay-offs in each storyline. The film is a bit too long but it'd be a hard one to cut down because it's all effectively a game of dominoes and Canto Bight is about as short as it could be without it completely losing its point – maybe shorten jockeying the space-nags.

I think Canto Bight suffers because it's just not quite as good as all the other stuff going on around it and probably would've been a better served location if it was a larger part of the story and set-up earlier. I'd have loved a larger arms-dealing subplot – or to go total fan-wank have Lando as one of the rich elite secretly funding the resistance trying to get more ships and weapons to them – but that kind of 'film-making' in hindsight is bollocks. The film is the best made since the OT and is filled with simple yet clever scene staging that enhances the story and the characters.

Rey compelling Luke into telling her what actually happened during his dark night of the soul between him and Ben Solo is notable; with Luke forced down on his back floating just off the ground while Rey holds the saber over him. The staging effectively reverses the POVs of the characters in the past: Luke is telling it to Rey and seeing it from Ben Solo's point of view as Rey is seeing it from Luke's while she also holds a threatening saber. The poignant call-back to Luke's robotic hand lifting and igniting the saber neatly underscores the impulsive yet mechanical reflex of action without thinking and obviously old D.V. himself.

Another stand-out is Snoke's red-room and the light/dark saber fight; shot like a musical number it still manages to perfectly play the fine line of looking like an improvised fight but choreographed at the same time.


: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 31 December, 2017, 11:31:53 PM
Don't tell me it wasn't a great moment when Poe realised they'd failed, and then got zapped by Leia

It was great: sparking the door then bursting through looking like a negative version of her Da in Episode IV.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Rara Avis 31 December, 2017, 11:51:21 PM
My apologies I assumed that the more their fuel ran out the less capable they would have been of making a final hyperspace jump.

@Tordelback, I thought it was Poe's fuffing about that allowed the FO to be able to put a tracker on the fleet in the first place ...

if the lead ship had no fuel how was the final hyperspace jump carried out when they should not have had enough fuel to do it.
They said all along that they had enough fuel to make one jump, just not enough to make a second one. They made one jump. No plot hole.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 01 January, 2018, 12:44:19 AM
The film is the best made since the OT and is filled with simple yet clever scene staging that enhances the story and the characters.

QFT.  The film is literally jammed with little bits of cleverness, including numerous call-backs to the OT and the Prequels that actually serve a purpose (usually to confound or invert), rather than just nerd-affirming cameos.  This visual richness is something missing from SW since TPM.

Another thing I particularly enjoyed (whether intentional or not) was the apparent reference to the Tartakovsky Clone Wars (previous holder of Best SW Since RotJ) in the Dark Side cave.  In the cartoon, the Jedi Council discuss Anakin's uncompleted Jedi Trials: the last of these is 'facing the mirror', an idea obviously derived from the Cave/Tree scene on Dagobah.  But here we seem to see a possible in-universe literal origin for the term, in the birthplace of the Jedi Order itself. 

The Cave offers knowledge, but is only a mirror that reflects what's in the supplicant's heart. Rey wants to know about her family, but in her heart she knows (or more likely fears) that she is all alone, herself and nothing more: the mirror shows her this, in the same way it shows Luke that the enemy he fights is himself (or possibly his fear of becoming a monster). How true was the vision in Luke's case?  And in Rey's?


: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 01 January, 2018, 01:19:01 AM
The Cave offers knowledge, but is only a mirror that reflects what's in the supplicant's heart.

The sequencing of all that is put together particularly well. 'No narration' was a bit of an invisible rule in editing SW films and it throws you a bit when she's talking about herself at the mirror but then revealing that it's Rey telling Kylo of the experience via the Force flips the whole subjective thing again, interrupted by Luke aptly tearing down the walls, leading into Rey's Luke confrontation/flashback.

The set-ups in terms of the physical after-effects of force-facetime really help make Luke's ending work: Kylo feeling the impact of Rey's blaster and the water wiped from his face indicate that Luke didn't just die of 'exhaustion' from projection but felt those saber burns. He was holding his side just before he phased-out  at the twin suns.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 01 January, 2018, 01:34:58 AM
An interesting watch is MidAmeriCon (1976) Worldcon - Star Wars Q&A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmhjvkj8_aw) – an early promo tour before the release of the original film where Mark Hamill, Gary Kurtz & Charles Lippincott (Producer Judge Dredd) field fan questions/quibbles about plot, explosions in space, faster-than-light travel and why are they using swords?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 01 January, 2018, 04:25:56 AM
bringing the hope of freedom to the enslaved and downtrodden - which, remember, was what L'il Ani promised to do in TPM and then never even tried (in the movies).   


Did he do that in the novels / comics / other EU/Legends stuff then?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 01 January, 2018, 05:55:52 AM
bringing the hope of freedom to the enslaved and downtrodden - which, remember, was what L'il Ani promised to do in TPM and then never even tried (in the movies).   
Did he do that in the novels / comics / other EU/Legends stuff then?

The Clone Wars cartoon rehabilitates Anakin somewhat by basically making him a different character: a person who actually gives a shit about the war, his men and other people in general. Strength of character is what the Prequel films lack and partly why Anakin's turn to the dark-side in ROTS is unconvincing and structurally flat. The decision to go full evil in that Windu/Palps duel seems to boil down to Anakin being caught in a bunch of convoluted trickery on behalf of the Emperor about cheating death and convincing him the Jedi are carrying out a coup.

Palpatine's plot-machine on overtime makes Anakin seem too stupid for my liking and undercuts what I thought could play a larger part in the Republic becoming the Empire and his fall, namely Anakin's disagreement with the Jedi's philosophy as guardians and peace-keepers, and being compelled by a real desire to stop the Republic being torn apart by bringing it under his military control.* No Order 66, thanks.

Instead he kinda slides into evil henchman by being caught under the Emperor's spells and bullshit tales of midi-chlorians – it's definitely another angle to the Sith all right but doesn't sit well with the ruling the galaxy part of Vader.

*Post-accident Vader would of course become a weaker lackey under the Emperor and rely on mahinery to keep him alive – so in effect it could be 2 falls: an initial fall to the dark-side, then falling under the Emperor's control.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 01 January, 2018, 11:26:22 AM
He's not really a stooge of Palpatine so much as simply biding his time, as evidenced by his willingness to turn on Palpatine in the OT, and more recently in the Lucas-approved alternate ending to the Revenge Of The Sith videogame where Anakin's besting Obi-Wan on Mustafar leads him to murder Palpatine.

The decision to go full evil in that Windu/Palps duel seems to boil down to Anakin being caught in a bunch of convoluted trickery on behalf of the Emperor about cheating death and convincing him the Jedi are carrying out a coup.

Although Anakin was already under Palpatine's thrall by then, Windu actually forces Anakin's hand by attempting to execute the democratically-elected leader of the Republic without trial, while also acknowledging he's acting illegally in doing so.
Though this forces Anakin to make a binary choice between the Republic and the Jedi, he hasn't "flipped" with this one act, he's still the same man he was when he told the Jedi that Palpatine was the Sith lord they were looking for, but Palpatine has by this point groomed Anakin to think that without the Jedi there's only one way forward for him: master the Dark Side and finally discover balance in the Force, just as he was destined to do before politics and romance confused his path.  He slaughters kids not because he's completely evil now, but because he's been duped - thanks in part to the "bullshit tales of midi-chlorians" - into thinking he has no other choice and that the ends - mastery of life and death - will justify the means.
A better actor and script would probably have helped, though.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 01 January, 2018, 03:01:24 PM
bringing the hope of freedom to the enslaved and downtrodden - which, remember, was what L'il Ani promised to do in TPM and then never even tried (in the movies).   

Did he do that in the novels / comics / other EU/Legends stuff then?

The TCW/Comics Anakin has an understandable bee in his bonnet about slavery,  and tackles it several times: most accessibly in the Zygerrian Slaver arc of TCW (Season 4?) and the DH Clone Wars comic that it's based on. There are plenty of more minor examples, and I don't know about the prose novels (there aren't that many Anakin novels anyway).

I would have given a lot to see Anakin's fall derive from actions he took fighting against slavery outside the Republic, in opposition to the Jedi Order's hands-off approach (as virtual slavers themselves they must have been nervous about addressing it). That would have allowed him to be a hero right up until manipulated into some terrible moment of anger that led him to become Vader,  instead of a venal self-absorbed kid with a minor genocide under his belt when he was still an apprentice.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 01 January, 2018, 04:18:24 PM
He's not really a stooge of Palpatine so much as simply biding his time, as evidenced by his willingness to turn on Palpatine in the OT, and more recently in the Lucas-approved alternate ending to the Revenge Of The Sith videogame where Anakin's besting Obi-Wan on Mustafar leads him to murder Palpatine.

Aye but it's implied he's not capable of doing it alone; I assume because he's physically unable so as stated needs Luke to confront the Emperor. Until then he can only really function as a servant along with Jerjerrod and the rest. The alternate ROTS ending sounds interesting enough. The film could've done with a bit more that attitude.

The decision to go full evil in that Windu/Palps duel seems to boil down to Anakin being caught in a bunch of convoluted trickery on behalf of the Emperor about cheating death and convincing him the Jedi are carrying out a coup.

Although Anakin was already under Palpatine's thrall by then, Windu actually forces Anakin's hand by attempting to execute the democratically-elected leader of the Republic without trial, while also acknowledging he's acting illegally in doing so.

Though this forces Anakin to make a binary choice between the Republic and the Jedi, he hasn't "flipped" with this one act, he's still the same man he was when he told the Jedi that Palpatine was the Sith lord they were looking for, but Palpatine has by this point groomed Anakin to think that without the Jedi there's only one way forward for him: master the Dark Side and finally discover balance in the Force, just as he was destined to do before politics and romance confused his path.  He slaughters kids not because he's completely evil now, but because he's been duped - thanks in part to the "bullshit tales of midi-chlorians" - into thinking he has no other choice and that the ends - mastery of life and death - will justify the means.

A better actor and script would probably have helped, though.

As you quite rightly point out, by this time Anakin has revealed to the Jedi that Palpatine's the real enemy, but Palps has also just reminded Anakin of how only he has the knowledge that can save his wife. "He must stand trial" and "It's not the Jedi way" are played as though Anakin is feeding Windu a line so he can get what he needs from the Chancellor rather than service to the Republic – though I do enjoy Palpatine from this point on.

I admit it's purely a if I had my druthers view of all this but the grooming and befuddlement of Anakin's motivations make the character and his choice less convincing for me. I'd have preferred the status of Anakin switched at this point to show Palpatine's fear of him until after he's turned into a living cinder and Palpatine keeps him alive, c'est la vie.

Respect to Lucas though for trying to tie the 'conflict' threads together but leaving most of the heavy work until the second half of the last film did him no favours.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 03 January, 2018, 02:20:02 PM
“This is not going to go the way you think”.

Well he got that right. But what exactly did unhappy fans expect from Luke in TLJ?  Let's say, for the sake of argument, that he was actually a happy balanced Jedi Master busy doing urgent Snoke-defeating research of some kind on Ahch-To, rather being than a broken hermit like the two generations of masters that preceded and indeed taught him. 

Rey shows up, hands him his lightsabre and asks him to come back with her, train her and save the Resistance.  “Wizard” says Luke, “I've never run from a fight yet.  Let's do this!”.   (And there go arguably the best bits of the film, but onward...). 

So they're on the Falcon and Luke is doing the whole 'unlearn what you have learned' thing with Rey, then they reunite with Leia and go on to a double-date smack-down with Darth 'Snoke' Plagueis (if we're making fans happy why not go the whole hog) and Kylo Ren, who is so hideously scarred he never takes off his helmet these days.

Luke and Plagueis/Ezra have a big ol' green-versus-blue lightning fight while Rey tries to turn Ben good through the magic of R.P. diction, which all ends in a draw, probably hingeing on the revelation that Obi-Wan is Rey's grandfather, and the fact that while Luke is teh arsome, Rey Kenobi is only a girl so can't beat Kylo, who is a boy and therefore stronger, so she lets the side down and gets captured by the Knights of Ren who are all like subtly different Boba Fetts with crazy lightsabre polearms*. Thus there can be another movie where the boys have to rescue her. 

So basically Luke's arc in this 'improved' version is that he was away on sabbatical while the First Order got in the saddle, but now he's back like he was never away and after 30 years of non-stop lightsabre practice he's the baddest most confident Jedi there ever was. Possibly even a Grey Jedi, although not one that in any way deviates from what everyone understands Jedi to be.

I know that was a childish straw-porg argument, but wasn't it a lot more interesting to see Luke, who defeated the Sith by throwing away his lightsabre and refusing to fight, driven to retreat by the utter failure that the fall of his own nephew, the only child of his best mate and his twin sister, represents, by the realisation that his attempt to recreate the Jedi Order on his own has only served to perpetuate its most poisonous legacy. 

“I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought I could train him as well as Yoda: I was wrong”, said Obi-Wan, and you can imagine those words ringing in Luke's ears as he watched his new temple burn.  The cycle repeats, there's something wrong in the setup: either the teacher, or the blood, or the teaching itself. Whichever, the solution is to remove himself from the equation. 

And then in the end, Luke's solution is once again to give his all to fight the darkness by not fighting


I believe in this Luke more than I ever could the great warrior that people seem to have wanted to see. Wars not make one great.



*Meanwhile Poe and Finn jump in another TIE fighter and blow up the FO fleet while quipping away, DJ sees the value of freedom and joins the Rebels and Rose dies tragically trying to save CGI Leia who crashes her cruiser into Darth Ezra's flagship in a new ending filmed after Carrie Fisher's death.  Luke now leads the Resistance, and starts handing out lightsabres to likely looking lads and female Twi'Leks.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JLC 03 January, 2018, 02:29:53 PM
“This is not going to go the way you think”.

Well he got that right. But what exactly did unhappy fans expect from Luke in TLJ?
I'm one of the 'unhappy fans' who actually lthought Luke's character was interesting, theoretically, but like everything else in this movie it was poorly executed. What a mess of a movie!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 03 January, 2018, 03:06:02 PM
So Luke runs off to hide for decades as a cranky hermit in a bathrobe, before coming out of hiding to join a young Jedi strong in the Force fight against an evil empire but dying while stalling the evil black-clad villain - who was once a huffy lank-haired teen - in a lightsaber duel so that the goodies including Princess Leia and a headstrong gifted pilot can escape, and he dies by disappearing from his robes, happy that he has "broken the cycle"?

This is why the whole "we had to do something different" defence rings utterly hollow to me even before the pretend iconoclasm of "you think I'm going to do this but I'm actually doing this" storytelling approach beloved of the Family Guy Star Wars specials wore down my patience.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 03 January, 2018, 05:27:27 PM
It should go without saying that I would far rather have watched an Episode VIII with Prof Bear on the script committee,  and one where it was accepted that Luke lived happily ever after and only appeared as a wryly charming ghost, if at all.

But seeing as the Mouse took against such sensible ideas, I very much enjoyed the version we did get: in this light "something different" is less of a bankrupt defence and more the best we could have hoped for. Was anyone involved really claiming iconoclasm (which as I understand it gets you fired these days), or was it more a case of giving the audience a few surprises within established parameters?  Or even established meter?

I do however believe there is new stuff to see here.

I'd draw the reader's attention to Yoda and Luke's chat. In telling Luke that a Master is someone a student grows beyond,  he is reminding him that Obi-Wan and himself did everything they could to prevent Luke confronting Vader, and subsequently attempting to save him. Their advice, their teaching, was completely wrong (twice): Luke went his own way,  and succeeded.   To some extent this both exonerates Luke from his failure with Ben Solo,  and makes him realise that his most recent student might benefit from his support more than his opposition.

That the events closely mirror Obi-Wan's story doesn't take away from it - rather it highlights Luke's own journey, and maybe the viewers': I like that my childhood hero fails just like I do, and then gets back up and tries another way. 
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 03 January, 2018, 06:00:25 PM
It seems like a lot of people dislike this movie purely because of its portrayal of Luke, which I don't really understand. As with the question of Rey's parentage (and as I pointed out at the time of that film's release) it was pretty clear that decisions made in the writing of The Force Awakens had written the sequel into a corner regarding certain things, including Luke - ie that there was no real satisfying way of explaining his absence other than that he had ran away, and given up. It never even occurred to me that Luke having turned his back on the Force was supposed to be a twist or a 'subversion of expectations' in this one.

In a wider sense, pre-requisites of making this sequel trilogy were that:

a) The Rebel victory at the end of Jedi has to be undone.
b) Luke has to be taken out or removed from the action somehow - it was either this or have him dead before the film began (which would have been my preference).

A status quo where the good guys have already won and continue to survive would make for an incredibly boring springboard from which to tell new stories - see basically everything in the old EU.

I don't know why people are surprised, or were expecting anything different.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 03 January, 2018, 06:16:18 PM
It never even occurred to me that Luke having turned his back on the Force was supposed to be a twist or a 'subversion of expectations' in this one.

I don't think it was meant to be,  but everything else you say is correct.  The decision to set the sequels so soon after RotJ was terrible,  but inevitable. However,  I think TLJ managed to be interesting and exciting within the parameters that its timeframe mandated.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 03 January, 2018, 10:04:48 PM
It seems like a lot of people dislike this movie purely because of its portrayal of Luke, which I don't really understand.

I don't agree or disagree with it but I understand the sentiment: a lot of people find the idea of their fictional hero dying a lonely death after several years of being a depressed former space-hippy far away from his best friends, abhorrent.* They want a craggier, more adjusted version of 23 year-old Luke from Return of the Jedi, which is fine, but is it going to be that interesting? Same goes for Han Solo.


it was pretty clear that decisions made in the writing of The Force Awakens had written the sequel into a corner regarding certain things, including Luke - ie that there was no real satisfying way of explaining his absence other than that he had ran away, and given up. It never even occurred to me that Luke having turned his back on the Force was supposed to be a twist or a 'subversion of expectations' in this one.


This might be the precarious path of nostlagia and inverted recycling they chose to go down with the Sequels but the basic Luke in seclusion story was never a problem, and it was the intended corner Lucasfilm wanted the story written into. It also happens to be George Lucas's idea.

Published in the 2 art books, the early Episode 7 pre-production concept art that Lucas had commissioned for his story treatment show a junk-planet urchin girl, known as Kira (renamed Rey), who goes searching for old Luke who's hidden in a temple on a mountain-top during a 30 year funk in which he's re-evaluating his life – Kira finds him, gets Jedi training, and helps him regain his faith. The villain – known as the Jedi-Killer – is an early version of what eventually became Ben Solo.


If you're going to do another full-on Luke story it's the best one to choose as enough time has elapsed for a certain amount of significant dramatic change to occur. Can he be stuck in a supporting role even as a force-ghost without too many fans complaining that it's a missed opportunity to finally show Luke 'da badass'? Wanting to go large with a demonstration of his force/lightsaber skillz doesn't appeal to me as a scene nor suit the character's more pacifist streak.

The scant knowledge gleaned from Lucas's commissioned concept art indicates he wanted the hermit-Luke story of The Last Jedi to be the crux of Episode 7 but it was Michael Arndt who preferred shoving Luke's story into Episode 8 – as is now well known his presence would dominate the story once he's introduced. I think Arndt was right but Abrams and Kasdan didn't fully follow-through with that looking for Luke theme and storyline, as it really only functions as a set-up and framing device in Episode 7.

In a wider sense, pre-requisites of making this sequel trilogy were that:

a) The Rebel victory at the end of Jedi has to be undone.
b) Luke has to be taken out or removed from the action somehow - it was either this or have him dead before the film began (which would have been my preference).


To me the end of Jedi is not undone – they still won – but the Sequels have put it into a bigger story and context. Unfortunately, as with the set-up of Luke in 7, the context and nature of the antagonism isn't developed enough to support the idea of what-the-fuck happened since Jedi? This could easily have been rectified.

*Reluctantly, it behooves me to refer to Star Wars and The Hero's Journey since I've read a few fans citing it as proof that The Last Jedi's 'subversion' of Luke's character negates the culmination of his hero journey in the OT; they need to actually read it or are missing the Rescue from Without section from their crib-sheet.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Richard 03 January, 2018, 11:16:05 PM
TordelSoap nailed it.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 03 January, 2018, 11:25:05 PM
It seems like a lot of people dislike this movie purely because of its portrayal of Luke, which I don't really understand. As with the question of Rey's parentage (and as I pointed out at the time of that film's release) it was pretty clear that decisions made in the writing of The Force Awakens had written the sequel into a corner regarding certain things, including Luke - ie that there was no real satisfying way of explaining his absence other than that he had ran away, and given up. It never even occurred to me that Luke having turned his back on the Force was supposed to be a twist or a 'subversion of expectations' in this one.

The premise of Luke living in solitude on its own isnt a big deal, but they weren't completely in a corner, Luke's personality, his reasons for being there and his subsequent arc could've been written differently.

For example what if rather than ignoring the force, he was training on this planet, a holy Jedi place where the force is strong, summoning and conversing with Jedi ghosts and meditating to attain further wisdom and mastery. 'After seeing the power of Snoke/Ren and my own limitations, I needed to know more, to prepare'.

Although not a whiney crank like in ep 8, he could still be left disturbed and fearful by his experiences with Ben Solo, be apprehensive about Rey and training her at first, yet eventually relent - but in this version find hope in her as she trains. Perhaps developing a paternal relationship, the father she never had. Ultimately, with newfound optimism and resolve he leaves the island with Rey 'I've been away too long' to take a corporeal part in the rest of the film up until his optional Obi-Wan style sacrifice later (I might've left that for the next one).

Rey would've got some shit-hot training if Luke had been channelling Jedi ghosts into the mix too! Show Rey your gorilla press, dad! :D
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 03 January, 2018, 11:49:59 PM
For example what if rather than ignoring the force, he was training on this planet, a holy Jedi place where the force is strong, summoning and conversing with Jedi ghosts and meditating to attain further wisdom and mastery. 'After seeing the power of Snoke/Ren and my own limitations, I needed to know more, to prepare'.

I see what you're saying, but I still don't think there was a satisfying way of resolving what was set up in TFA - ie that Luke has thrown a strop and knowingly abandoned the galaxy to the First Order and Snoke.

I think Johnson did the best he could with a bad setup, with one exception - having Luke even contemplate murdering a teenager in cold blood is - just did not sit right with me, and just felt like a rather hollow attempt to get us to sympathise with Kylo Ren.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 04 January, 2018, 12:13:35 AM
I don't think anyone categorically said in episode 7 'he's turned into a right moody knob' did they? Maybe something was said I don't remember but I dont think they were locked into the stroppy prick angle.

I think if you say the reason he did one is that he had to regroup and steel himself with training, reaffirm his oneness with the force and have a chat with the masters, you're got a good explanation. You could go into detail with that if you wanted, with something like Luke admitting to Rey that his understanding of the force was never equal to Yoda's or Obi Wan's, that he should've made this pilgrimage long before trying to train the next generation.

Perhaps theres a darkness in him somewhere caused by the tragedy of Ben Solo and that has been holding him back, stopping him from completing the final stage of his training (that's why he's been stuck there so long), and when he finds some hope and redemption in training Rey, he too completes his final task and will be a space ghost when he dies or whatever you get when you go blackbelt.

having Luke even contemplate murdering a teenager in cold blood is - just did not sit right with me, and just felt like a rather hollow attempt to get us to sympathise with Kylo Ren.

absolutely agree with that.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 04 January, 2018, 12:19:32 AM
Am I imagining it or was there an early story leak during preproduction of TFA that suggested that Luke had gone into exile as he had become so powerful with the force he could not contain it, and ultimately ended up inadvertently killing Han?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 04 January, 2018, 12:28:48 AM
I've not heard about that, the idea was he basically got the gush?? I'd have watched it!  :lol:
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 04 January, 2018, 01:00:19 AM
I think Johnson did the best he could with a bad setup, with one exception - having Luke even contemplate murdering a teenager in cold blood is - just did not sit right with me, and just felt like a rather hollow attempt to get us to sympathise with Kylo Ren.

Luke's dialogue during the last recall:

"I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, pain, death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And I was left with shame and with consequence. And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him."

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Last_Jedi

In Luke's final version it's not a contemplated moment and not only about Ben but about Snoke as well. The intentional way his metal hand is shown to suddenly jerk with the saber in reflex, without him looking at it, underscores this. I saw this version of the scene more about empathising with Luke – he is Vader's son so a little bit of the dark-side is expected. For Luke it's a greater moral dilemma than killing Vader because Kylo has yet to become the same – but then of course he goes and kills Luke's students rather than just hurting Luke.

(https://78.media.tumblr.com/1b72d44b6f92846987368974069a377f/tumblr_nqzxths5a71uqi4ivo1_500.gif)

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 04 January, 2018, 01:29:40 AM
Am I imagining it or was there an early story leak during preproduction of TFA that suggested that Luke had gone into exile as he had become so powerful with the force he could not contain it, and ultimately ended up inadvertently killing Han?

A Luke killing Han scuttlebutt was reported in late November 2014 after the film had finished shooting.

'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' Rumours: Han Solo Killed by Luke Skywalker? (http://www.ibtimes.co.in/star-wars-force-awakens-rumours-han-solo-killed-by-luke-skywalker-614795)

"Luke Skywalker, bearded and fully fleshed, raising a GREEN lightsaber at Han, who in turn has his classic blaster pointed at him," Kyle of Star Wars 7 News noted. "Adam Driver stands, not so much beside Han, but more off to the side. The perspective almost makes Driver look like he is in the middle. Driver looks concerned, but not frightened, more like he is pondering his next move."

"The three of them are standing in what I guess is a cave or some partially natural environment. The ground beneath them is gravel or dirt. The walls are definitely rock," Kyle noted, adding that Luke resembles a crazy person.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 04 January, 2018, 11:03:17 AM
No question that Luke's momentary 'pull to the Dark' was the hardest thing for me to take in the film.  But as Joe says, it's part of who he's always been: that he resists, that Luke doesn't do what Anakin does to save Padme, both at Endor to save his sister, and then at the Temple to save everything he loves.

Hard though that lapse is for the viewer, that's what makes him Luke Skywalker, and neither some stainless flawless hero, nor the man he sees in the cave beneath the tree.

(It's worth noting too that Luke always draws first - both at Bespin and at Endor, the first blade ignited is his.)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Theblazeuk 04 January, 2018, 02:19:27 PM
We rewatched TFA and I am really hoping that the vision of Ren and the (I assume) Knights of Ren on the rainy planet come to pass. Those guys look dorky cool and I fear they won't be around as my gut feeling is they were at best Snoke's bodyguards that got chopped up, and that originally that vision is supposed to be when Luke's academy was destroyed - which it can't be because in the vision they're all in the full costume.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 04 January, 2018, 02:54:45 PM
We rewatched TFA and I am really hoping that the vision of Ren and the (I assume) Knights of Ren on the rainy planet come to pass. Those guys look dorky cool and I fear they won't be around as my gut feeling is they were at best Snoke's bodyguards that got chopped up, and that originally that vision is supposed to be when Luke's academy was destroyed - which it can't be because in the vision they're all in the full costume.

I had also assumed that this was from the destruction of Luke's academy - but this now seems very unlikely, as it wasn't raining that night in Luke's flashback, Kylo had his helmet, and the Knights (if those are they) are all kitted out as space-gangstas too, and it seems improbable they kept that stuff in their Padawan hope-chests: so if not the future, certainly an unexplored part of the past. Luke mentions that Ben took a number of his students with him, I hope against hope that this is a neat bit of ball-passing between Abrams and Johnson, and after keeping them safely off-stage during the carnage of TLJ, Supreme Leader Ren has his coterie of Dark Jedi by his side in IX: an Order of disposable baddies was something that was painfully lacking in the Prequels.  Ideally we'd see a wee bit more of a flashbackabout how Snoke came into Ben's life too: it seems like something we should know (in the surprisingly enjoyable new-canon Leia novel Bloodline, we discover that Ben first learnt that Vader was his Gran'pappy while already at Luke's Academy, and then third-hand from media reports of a successful (First Order orchestrated) political smear campaign against Leia. Assuming that Disney are serious about the content of their new EU, this seems like an excellent starting point for his disaffection). 

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JLC 04 January, 2018, 05:03:54 PM
I think Johnson did the best he could with a bad setup, with one exception - having Luke even contemplate murdering a teenager in cold blood is - just did not sit right with me, and just felt like a rather hollow attempt to get us to sympathise with Kylo Ren.

Bad set up? There was plenty set up with lots of interesting places to take it. Sadly Mr Johnson chose to ignore it. At least he had the good sense not to leave any interesting plot threads or develop things in any meaningful way. Audiences can't be upset by what happens next as there are no cliffhangers or any tantilising plot threads.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 04 January, 2018, 05:14:08 PM
Bad set up?

Yes. It was always obvious to me that we were never going to get truly satisfying answers to who Rey is, who Snoke is, why Luke went into exile (dooming the galaxy in the process to a crisis of his own making), even down to other minor things like why Maz had that lightsaber* or why Luke left a map, or why R2 D2 had the rest of it and randomly woke up - because the sloppy writing of TFA didn't leave room for it.

*Speaking of Maz, she really got Jar Jar'd in this one, huh?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tjm86 04 January, 2018, 05:26:03 PM
Well, we finally got around to seeing this.  Have to be honest, the general tenor of discussion has gone a long way towards shaping my expectations which was probably a good thing as i came away thinking it was better than I'd expected. 

I would agree that it was overlong.  In fact it started to put me in mind of the Pyrhamus and Thisbe death scene in which Pyrhamus keeps dying.  It just felt like it had reached the end but then kept going.  A serious case of having too many ideas and not enough editorial control.

My other gripe was the 'nods' towards Empire and Jedi.  It got to the point where I was starting to spend less time following the story and more time looking for the next 'homage'.  Scenes from Hoth, the inner Death Star, hell Snoke's speech was an almost word perfect quotation.   The General Huck on hold gag rankled a bit as well.  As a parody it would have worked perfectly but not for the main event.  Sorry Rian, leave it for Taff Wars.

Overall; not the best, not the worst, not earth shattering, a bit above 'meh'.  Someone needs to do the Reduced Shakespeare version.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Colin YNWA 04 January, 2018, 05:27:17 PM
I need to catch up with this thread as there seems to be a LOT of opinion on it and having rewatched it again today (the excuse being to take the kids, which I'll get back to) I have a lot of opinion about it too.

The most important thing, this is the first Star Wars film my kids have seen in the cinema, they are 6 and 8 and they absolutely LOVED it. So for me this film can do no wrong. Sid my son was having air lightsaber fights with Luke and Kylo (which I quietly tried to hamper reluctantly as I loved it, but it must have been infuriating for others) he just couldn't contain himself he was so excited. My daughter was just a rolled up bundle of joy, tension and I have to admit at a couple of points tears (she cried three times at Paddington 2).

So yeah that box well and truly ticked.

For me after a second viewing and removed from the nerves, tension and hyper-anticipation of the first view, I can now calmly and assuriedly proclaim it FUCKIN' AMAZIN'

It gets better and its last test before I give serious consideration of whether it gets place 4 or 3 in my Star Wars list (its never going to top Empire and Star Wars now is it) is how it stands up to viewing on the small screen. It definately the best Star Wars film since Return.

Its the most visually stunning of them all. At times the glory of its visuals feel a little forced (pun indeeded or not, who cares) but God at times its breathtaking.

It flies by on second viewing, the good bits getting better, the awkward bits feeling more comfortable. And I spoted all sorts of smart, sharp nice bits that I missed first time.

Its a perfect ending of Luke's story, the perfect continuation of Rey's and holds the charm and excitment of the originals without being slavish and overly referenial, when it is its to, box it up and put it way. Sheding the old skin to allow the new to truly truly shine.

What a trimpuh.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 04 January, 2018, 05:31:35 PM
Bad set up?

Yes. It was always obvious to me that we were never going to get truly satisfying answers to who Rey is, who Snoke is, why Luke went into exile (dooming the galaxy in the process to a crisis of his own making), even down to other minor things like why Maz had that lightsaber* or why Luke left a map, or why R2 D2 had the rest of it and randomly woke up - because the sloppy writing of TFA didn't leave room for it.


I was satisfied with the answer to who Rey was (as long as it sticks) - too many sci-fantasy stories are based on who you're descended from rather than who you are.  As for Snoke - there wasn't really a question about who he was - that was all fan-generated - in the films themselves his identity was as much a mystery as the Emperor was in the holy trinity.

*Speaking of Maz, she really got Jar Jar'd in this one, huh?


I think your idea of what Jar Jar is and mine are completely different.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 04 January, 2018, 05:36:24 PM
*Speaking of Maz, she really got Jar Jar'd in this one, huh?

I think your idea of what Jar Jar is and mine are completely different.

Just so you don't mistakenly think I like Binks - I mean that to me Jar Jar is a rubbish character from the off, which I don't think Maz is (and can't see how a previously acceptable character can be Jar Jar'd).
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 04 January, 2018, 06:15:23 PM
What do people think to the way they seem to be making the story up as they go along here, on a per-film basis? Would anyone prefer they had more of a roadmap?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Colin YNWA 04 January, 2018, 06:33:26 PM
Bad set up?

Yes. It was always obvious to me that we were never going to get truly satisfying answers to who Rey is, who Snoke is, why Luke went into exile (dooming the galaxy in the process to a crisis of his own making), even down to other minor things like why Maz had that lightsaber* or why Luke left a map, or why R2 D2 had the rest of it and randomly woke up - because the sloppy writing of TFA didn't leave room for it.


I was satisfied with the answer to who Rey was (as long as it sticks) - too many sci-fantasy stories are based on who you're descended from rather than who you are.  As for Snoke - there wasn't really a question about who he was - that was all fan-generated - in the films themselves his identity was as much a mystery as the Emperor was in the holy trinity.

*Speaking of Maz, she really got Jar Jar'd in this one, huh?


I think your idea of what Jar Jar is and mine are completely different.

I meant to play with the
tags but think I'll just mess it up so I'll leave the lot in.

The main point I want to raise is I think there is an entirely satisfactory continuation explaination for Rey's family. I think her parents being nobody and nobody is great, surely nearly all Jedi have such parentage... unless they are all just one big interspecies interbreeding family thing going on when there was loads of them. Some people just happen to be strong in the force . Its gives entirely justified underscoring to the point that this is Rey's story, not Luke's, or Leia's or Han's or Darth's but Rey's a new story and though intertwined with the stories of the past, this is a new and fresh thing. I applaud it and was very very pleased with it.

Also I don't think anyone was more disappointed with Luke's reaction to Kylo Ben than Luke and hence he took himself off the list of options to prevent worse things happening. Again entirely pleasing and well done for me and a great explaination for Luke sucking the space cow juice and hangin' with the Fraggle Beanie Boos.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 04 January, 2018, 06:36:18 PM
why R2 D2 had the rest of it and randomly woke up

I've got a theory*.  Contrary to JJA's assertion, Luke didn't leave a map, and R2 didn't get his bit on the first Death Star. I'd suggest that Luke and R2 scouted out Ahch-to in the X-Wing a long time ago**, when Luke was in his post-RotJ phase of learning about the Jedi, and (most of) the chart of that voyage is what R2 is carrying. Going on a complicated space-archaeological expedition doesn't seem like something a man fleeing the destruction of all he loves would do: running to the best hideout he already knows from his days as pioneer of the Jedi rebirth seems more likely.

To prevent the location of the sacred First Temple falling into enemy hands, Luke separated the critical magic-hyperspace-compass-led part of the journey from R2's hyperspace navigation memory files, hiding the USB stick somewhere safe just in case (Who knows where?  Long time ally and apparently friend of the family Lor San Tekka is able to lay his hands on it but not without a great deal of effort, so somewhere). 

After Ben's betrayal, Luke retreats back to 'the most unfindable place in the galaxy' ostensibly to die (but also perhaps with the vague hope of repairing his shattered faith in a sacred place with texts to read) this time without Artoo, using the compass.  This is more or less the same pattern Yoda follows with Dagobah, following Qui-Gon's advice, according to Season 6 of The Clone Wars.

In the Falcon lounge scene, TLJ possibly shows why R2 'wakes up' when he does: the only witness to the entire saga also wants his master (and friend?) back in the game. He's 'only' a droid, but one who hasn't had his memory wiped in at least 60 years, who remembers the Jedi and both Anakin and Ben's falls, and who clearly has agency of his own.  Perhaps once he hears that in this Rey character there is someone who has faced up to Kylo Ren, he believes it's time to bring Luke back to the fight, just as he once brought back Obi-Wan.  It's not all orders and programming with R2, and it never has been.



* That's it a demon. A dancing demon! No something isn't right there.
**The Battlefront 2 game hints at a timeline for this in having Luke source the Jack Sparrowesque Compass we see in his hut from one of Palpatine's abandoned facilities.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 04 January, 2018, 06:43:19 PM
I think your idea of what Jar Jar is and mine are completely different.

I meant as in they drastically reduced her screen time in the second film in the same way they did with Jar Jar in Clones and Sith. I remember rumours that there was friction betweens Abrams and the actress who played Maz (she was originally supposed to have a bigger role in TFA as I understand it).

What do people think to the way they seem to be making the story up as they go along here, on a per-film basis? Would anyone prefer they had more of a roadmap?

I think it's a pretty common misconception that works of fiction are planned out far in advance, when the majority of writers are just winging it and making it all up as they go. Even the creators of things that often seem meticulously mapped out in advance (Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, the original Star Wars trilogy) usually have only a vague idea of the direction of the overall story and are just furiously laying down train tracks as they go. Making it seem like it was all part of a wider plan is the real skill.

RE: Rey, think I've made it pretty clear by now that I have no problem with her being a nobody, but it makes for a very underwhelming resolution to what was teased as a mystery over the course of two whole films. It's the execution that blows, not the concept.

Tordels, I applaud that display of mental gymnastics. Don't ever change.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 04 January, 2018, 06:48:50 PM
(deleted double post)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 04 January, 2018, 07:09:05 PM
I think it's a pretty common misconception that works of fiction are planned out far in advance, when the majority of writers are just winging it and making it all up as they go. Even the creators of things that often seem meticulously mapped out in advance (Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, the original Star Wars trilogy) usually have only a vague idea of the direction of the overall story and are just furiously laying down train tracks as they go. Making it seem like it was all part of a wider plan is the real skill.

You're right that I'm sure brilliant story tellers like George RR Martin still change their minds about the direction of a character or event, even 7 books in or whatever it is now, but I'm not sure theres even a cursory overarching path to follow in the current Star Wars story, with Rhian Johnsons approved authorial power to subvert in TLJ.

Theres pros and cons, writing on the fly might bear more suprises, but then maybe there'd be more to look forward to in the next one if the story had been planned a bit more as the second film in a trilogy.

Lost is a good example of a show that really was just made up as it went, with no thought to where it was going, how the world really worked or how it should end. It was often unpredictable and amazing, but could also feel rudderless and messy, and that ending, my god.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 04 January, 2018, 08:43:44 PM
Lost is a good example of a show that really was just made up as it went, with no thought to where it was going, how the world really worked or how it should end. It was often unpredictable and amazing, but could also feel rudderless and messy, and that ending, my god.

Remind me again, who's responsible for the end of the current SW trilogy...?

Im not averse to writers letting characters or a story take them where they will, as long as what happens works with what's gone before.  It worked for TESB, and it (mostly) worked for RotJ, critical plot points of both being pulled from the air.

This is what hacks me off so much about Revenge of the Sith: far from making it up as he goes along, it's as if Lucas suddenly gives up and just moves all the pieces into their starting positions in Star Wars, without paying any attention to what little has been established about those events in the OT, and very little to what has supposedly led to that point in the Prequels. 
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 04 January, 2018, 09:07:20 PM
Remind me again, who's responsible for the end of the current SW trilogy...?

I dont envy him either, its an unusually hot potato being thrown his way.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 04 January, 2018, 09:21:37 PM
Remind me again, who's responsible for the end of the current SW trilogy...?

Point of order, M'lud - the producers have already said that Finn and Ray's stories won't be concluded in Episode 9.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 04 January, 2018, 09:28:47 PM
Remind me again, who's responsible for the end of the current SW trilogy...?

Point of order, M'lud - the producers have already said that Finn and Ray's stories won't be concluded in Episode 9.

Is that producers with a capital 'P'?

Didn't know that, but pleased to hear it!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 04 January, 2018, 09:40:41 PM
When I came out of the cinema, having watched this, I thought, "I quite enjoyed that."

Now, after reading the learned discussions on this thread, I have no idea whether I enjoyed it or not... :D


: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Colin YNWA 04 January, 2018, 09:53:34 PM
Remind me again, who's responsible for the end of the current SW trilogy...?

Point of order, M'lud - the producers have already said that Finn(ey) and Ray's stories won't be concluded in Episode 9.

What Sinister Dexter are in Star Wars now... I missed that...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 04 January, 2018, 10:44:46 PM
Lost is a good example of a show that really was just made up as it went, with no thought to where it was going, how the world really worked or how it should end. It was often unpredictable and amazing, but could also feel rudderless and messy, and that ending, my god.

That's the case with just about every longform TV show that's not an adaptation. The creator of Breaking Bad has talked about purposely writing the show into corners so they would need to work harder to make it work.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 05 January, 2018, 02:27:12 AM
ou're right that I'm sure brilliant story tellers like George RR Martin still change their minds about the direction of a character or event, even 7 books in or whatever it is now

It's fascinating to read Martin's original outline of the plot of what became 'A Song of Ice and Fire' (when it was being pitched as an 'epic trilogy', and see just how much it took on a life of it's own once he began writing it.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 05 January, 2018, 02:39:59 AM
Speaking of 'making it up as they go', I don't think Vader was originally supposed to be Luke's father, and Leia certainly wasn't originally supposed to be his sister.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 05 January, 2018, 02:58:42 AM
That's the case with just about every longform TV show that's not an adaptation.

Yeah I take your point in that they're mostly all written a season at a time not least of all because stuff gets cancelled, and it can work great with good writing like in Breaking Bad even when writers are testing themselves. Lost is a good example of a series doing it exceedingly recklessly and showcasing some of the extreme boons and pitfalls of that in the process.

Although it's worth saying as well whilst we're talking about Breaking Bad, that you will get a better chance of consistency - and I'm sure also behind-the-scenes thoughts about long-term arcs and potential endgames occurring - with the same artistically-invested top brass writing and firmly steering during its entire run. By contrast handing it off to different, removed writers every few hours of tv, with authorisation to make drastic changes and subvert expectations would have been.. interesting!

Personally I'd have wanted to approach writing a trilogy as one thing seeing as it has a continuous arc, like writing a season of a tv show or a book. Of course stuff could be added as you go, if a cool wrinkle or revelation occurs to you that enhances the story, but I would want a strong framework. I wonder if it did have a framework, and fan reaction to ep 7 made Disney want to tear it up?


: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: von Boom 05 January, 2018, 11:46:30 AM
When I came out of the cinema, having watched this, I thought, "I quite enjoyed that."

Now, after reading the learned discussions on this thread, I have no idea whether I enjoyed it or not... :D

Then the internet is working properly.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 05 January, 2018, 01:31:06 PM
I foolishly took a gander at the comments  under some of the Solo movie Lego set reveals... Sweet Moofmilkin' Jabba! I know SW fandom has always had a large toxic element (which I is why I do all my commenting here rather than 'there', as I once did), but post-Last Jedi  it looks like fecking GamerGate over there now. 

And this isn't the sensible criticism and disappointed folk we've had on this thread, no indeed not. 

All the modern rhetorical suspects are there: creating narratives by repeatedly using buzzwords (the Last Jedi was a 'fiasco', a 'flop', Disney's 'ethnic cleansing' of our heroes, Luke has been turned into a 'child killer' [must have missed that scene] etc. etc); endless reference to silent majorities and appeals to take the red pill and leave the herd mentality; liberal conspiracies and [yes] even white slavery.  And my personal favourite: Lucas (who has been the whipping boy for 90% of SW fandom for the last 20 years) is now apparently the one true saviour of Star Wars (a position I can get behind, but feck me the hypocrisy...!). 

Is this whole online world just a perpetual tyre-fire now?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: IndigoPrime 05 January, 2018, 02:06:58 PM
Is this whole online world just a perpetual tyre-fire now?
Mostly, yes, which is why one of my resolutions this year has been to dial back on a lot of social network and internet activity. My mental health was starting to suffer with the ongoing slew of toxic shit. It's too much. Fortunately, this place is for the most part a little oasis in a sea of sewerage.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 05 January, 2018, 03:31:25 PM
...this place is for the most part a little oasis in a sea of sewerage.

You missed your vocation - a glittering new career in writing package holiday brochures beckons!

I've almost totally given up on social media myself, for the same reason, except for following a mix of colleagues, creatives and scientists on Twitter, and, well, here.  One glance at the comments on popular Irish news sites and I feel like I've slipped into a nightmare.  Is this really what goes on in the heads of the people on the bus, in the supermarket queue, working across the desk from me?  Is that what the girl over there is typing into her phone right now? No wonder Professor X's hair fell out.

But at one level I can almost understand the kind of grim passion for propagating your childishly selfish narrow model of the real world that seems to be represented across social media - it's bringing all possible guns to bear on a popular science fantasy franchise that I just can't grasp! I mean 'Mary Sue Rey' was one thing, at least couched in the familiar (misused) misogynistic language of fandom, but 'pointless Asian b*tch', in casual usage?  Enough.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tjm86 05 January, 2018, 04:31:24 PM

I've almost totally given up on social media myself, for the same reason, except for following a mix of colleagues, creatives and scientists on Twitter, and, well, here. 

Could I possibly recommend a one-off venture into the TwitterSphere for a quick butchers at Nigel Farage's #askBarnier.  It will restore your faith, or at the very least give you a good chuckle.  (Lost to a dolphin!!!!!)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 05 January, 2018, 04:32:19 PM
I've come to the - possibly paranoid - conclusion that the vast majority of the pigshit-thick commentary on social media is either bot-produced, or indistinguishable from bot-produced content to the point I may as well just block it anyway, as I'm fucked if they're driving me off even as dreadful and morally compromised a platform as Twitter.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 05 January, 2018, 04:46:10 PM
All the modern rhetorical suspects are there: creating narratives by repeatedly using buzzwords (the Last Jedi was a 'fiasco', a 'flop'

Yep - because I sought out a few mixed reviews of TLJ, I keep getting youtube videos popping up in my feed called things like 'Mark Hamill - "I HATE The Last Jedi" that deliberately misrepresent and distort Hamill's sensitive and very well-reasoned comments about his ambivalence to the portrayal of Luke.

As for social media, I think Twitter is the worst offender. I pretty much quit using it entirely after the 2016 election. It's such an echo chamber of smart-arsery, outrage and despair, it's just not good for anyone's mental health. I'm mainly on Instagram these days, with imo is a very pleasant - even relaxing - place to be (depending on who you follow, obvs).
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 05 January, 2018, 05:20:15 PM
Could I possibly recommend a one-off venture into the TwitterSphere for a quick butchers at Nigel Farage's #askBarnier.  It will restore your faith, or at the very least give you a good chuckle.  (Lost to a dolphin!!!!!)

Hah, cheers Tjm, that was a good laugh!

To further cheer myself up I've just booked a third visit to TLJ for tomorrow morning... IMAX 2D this time, have to try all the flavours.  Ain't had the SW hunger this bad since TPM.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Dandontdare 05 January, 2018, 06:28:11 PM
May need to expand this now to include SW, but I’ve been saying for a while that the two scariest internet communities to get on the wrong side of are Whovians and Mumsnet
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Pete Wells 05 January, 2018, 06:35:21 PM
Yeah, I’ve just been reading some dickheads comments about modern Star Wars being too political! I think he missed Lucas’ point entirely.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tjm86 05 January, 2018, 07:14:26 PM
May need to expand this now to include SW, but I’ve been saying for a while that the two scariest internet communities to get on the wrong side of are Whovians and Mumsnet

OOOOh, Mumsnet?  No, just .... no.  Imagine the scariest, b********* girls in school, all grown up, then cross them with a mountain lioness protecting her cubs.  You'd be safer strapping yourself to an ICBM and shouting 'mines bigger than Donald's!'
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 06 January, 2018, 12:00:47 AM
Is this whole online world just a perpetual tyre-fire now?
Mostly, yes, which is why one of my resolutions this year has been to dial back on a lot of social network and internet activity. My mental health was starting to suffer with the ongoing slew of toxic shit. It's too much. Fortunately, this place is for the most part a little oasis in a sea of sewerage.


I've not been on here too much lately but it is about the only online forum I go to which I interact with (I follow a few RPG forums, but that's more to gain ideas and read than to actually participate).
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 06 January, 2018, 12:07:38 AM
ou're right that I'm sure brilliant story tellers like George RR Martin still change their minds about the direction of a character or event, even 7 books in or whatever it is now

It's fascinating to read Martin's original outline of the plot of what became 'A Song of Ice and Fire' (when it was being pitched as an 'epic trilogy', and see just how much it took on a life of it's own once he began writing it.


For many years Lucas claimed he had an end in mind and worked his way to the beginning (and Pat Mills claimed he was doing the same with Nemesis).  We took it on faith that he was telling the truth there, though the experience of the prequel trilogy, where we absolutely knew what the end point was (the holy trilogy) and how badly Lucas handled plot, pacing and character development to get to that point casts some doubt on the original claim (leaving aside at what point he decided to make half the main characters part of the same family).


One writer I absolutely do believe is capable of consistently planning out long form series and executing them correctly is Alan Moore.  From early works like Marvelman, his tooth stuff (elements introduced seemingly as background flavour in Book One coming to the fore in Books Two and Three) to his later work, you always get the impression he has a plan.


All of which is contrasted with the making-it-up-as-they-go-along that the latest 'trilogy' is using.  Though is it really a trilogy if there's no plan, or are they just three otherwise unrelated films?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 06 January, 2018, 12:58:04 AM
George RR Martin has a good analogy:

“I think there are two types of writers, the architects and the gardeners. The architects plan everything ahead of time, like an architect building a house. They know how many rooms are going to be in the house, what kind of roof they're going to have, where the wires are going to run, what kind of plumbing there's going to be. They have the whole thing designed and blueprinted out before they even nail the first board up. The gardeners dig a hole, drop in a seed and water it. They kind of know what seed it is, they know if planted a fantasy seed or mystery seed or whatever. But as the plant comes up and they water it, they don't know how many branches it's going to have, they find out as it grows. And I'm much more a gardener than an architect.”

At the end of the day, though, I don't think this new SW trilogy is any more or less off the cuff than the original trilogy. I just think the original trilogy is a lot better written.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 06 January, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
George RR Martin was still way ahead of the reader though in constructing his narrative, he's not laying track just out of sight with regards to almost everything, like this current Star Wars trilogy. I binged on George RR Martin interviews a few years ago and he definitely talked about having plans in place, however fluid a writer he is.

You might be right about the original Star Wars trilogy though, I've no idea how off the cuff they were. If they were written entirely exactly the same way as this current trilogy, one movie at a time with no foresight, they were indeed just better written! Having one guy at the centre of writing the story for all 3 films helps guarantee *some* consistency and oversight too, even if they were just flying by the seat of their pants.

One writer I absolutely do believe is capable of consistently planning out long form series and executing them correctly is Alan Moore.  From early works like Marvelman, his tooth stuff (elements introduced seemingly as background flavour in Book One coming to the fore in Books Two and Three) to his later work, you always get the impression he has a plan.


I remember that Halo Jones was supposed to be 9 books. You'd think that if someone announced 9 books they're not averse to a plan! :) Although, a thought - isn't Halo Jones a decade older in each released book, teens, 20s, 30s? If you decided each book was going to be set in a different decade of her life, you could arrive at the 9 number without much of a plan at all. Maybe that's the real reason he's never come back to it, the last 2 or 3 books set in a retirement home would be a chore :D
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Big_Dave 06 January, 2018, 02:10:22 PM
"You might be right about the original Star Wars trilogy though
If they were written entirely exactly the same way as this current trilogy, one movie at a time with no foresight, they were indeed just better written!"

so its the writing you dont like
not being written in advance isnt why you dont like them

lucas made ot up as he went
kasdan is the lucas of new films
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 06 January, 2018, 02:16:05 PM
I remember that Halo Jones was supposed to be 9 books. You'd think that if someone announced 9 books they're not averse to a plan! :) Although, a thought - isn't Halo Jones a decade older in each released book, teens, 20s, 30s? If you decided each book was going to be set in a different decade of her life, you could arrive at the 9 number without much of a plan at all. Maybe that's the real reason he's never come back to it, the last 2 or 3 books set in a retirement home would be a chore :D

According to Neil Gaiman it was worked out to a certain point and he at least had an ending:

It would have ended up with Halo Jones upon some planet that is right at the absolute edge of the universe where, beyond that, beyond some sort of spectacular lightshow, there is no space, no time, and it would have ended up with Halo Jones – all the rest of the people on this planetoid because, actually, time is not passing; you could stay there forever, potentially – and what would have happened is that Halo Jones, after spending some time with the rest of the immortals, would have tottered across the landing field, got into her spacecraft, and flown into the psychedelic lightshow, to finally get out. And that would have been the ending.

http://www.3ammagazine.com/3am/boy-from-the-boroughs/3/

Apart from just the difficult process of writing there are varying degrees of pressures that are different between comics, novels and films. Pumping out a $200 million film every 2 years because the shareholders want their return is not the same as George RR Martin spending almost a decade on one book pleasing himself.

I'm not convinced there was zero plan or co-ordination in the Star Wars Sequels and yes it'd be easier to have a full outline beforehand but it doesn't mean it would be necessarily better. Personally, I believe going into the films Lucas had as much planned for the Prequels as he did the Originals but the execution and a change in the method of their making resulted in quite different outcomes.

From reports and statements by Lucasfilm, Carrie Fisher's death put the Sequels' conclusion into a tail-spin as both 8 + 9 were being written quite close together, ahead of time. You can at least imagine the themes and dynamics they were going for with concentrating on female characters and the relationship between Leia and Ben Solo being a pay-off to the Force Awakens, and to the themes of nurturing a wider, galaxy-spanning Rebellion fostered in The Last Jedi. A 'Force' Majeure –pun intended– demanded a drastic, from scratch, re-write of 9.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 06 January, 2018, 02:16:34 PM
Three viewings under the belt now, and my main feeling as the credits rolled was 'Again! Again!'. I even found myself warming to Holdo this time around, picking up on the inversion of Luke and Leia's conversation, as well as really grokking the visual device of the burning curtains in Snoke's throne room. 

For those playing irrelevant-character bingo, I am sorry to confirm that Poe's decision to take out the 'fleet-killer' Dreadnought is what saves the Resistance: the wonderful Captain '5 bloody minutes ago' Kannady is confidently targeting the Raddus with his auto-cannons when his ship is destroyed - had it survived, it could presumably have taken out the Raddus at any time, and then the Crait base.

TLJ is now tied with TPM in my No. 4 spot, TPM mainly holding its ground due to the sheer amount of beautiful designs, and maybe Qui-Gon. On all other counts TLJ is the best thing since RotJ, with the possible exception of the Tartakovsky series.

I think it's a work of unexpected and unlooked-for genius, that so far has done nothing but reward repeated scrutiny and thought.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: CrazyFoxMachine 06 January, 2018, 03:52:12 PM
TLJ is now tied with TPM in my No. 4 spot, TPM mainly holding its ground due to the sheer amount of beautiful designs, and maybe Qui-Gon. On all other counts TLJ is the best thing since RotJ, with the possible exception of the Tartakovsky series.

Yeah, I'd go with that. Also - extra pudding for mentioning the phenomenal unforgettable (sadly non-canonical) Tartakovsky masterpieces.

TARTAKOVSKY GIF DUMP!

(https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/mordhau-media/spirit/images/64/64a49d2a827d15d3ce71d5a6daf2b0bb.gif)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/fLQQwESqJ0Q8M/giphy.gif)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/2cU0SWFCGqQRa/giphy.gif)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/14hOxFydmgj6VO/giphy.gif)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/NsIkzVo1bqjio/giphy.gif)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Colin YNWA 06 January, 2018, 03:55:04 PM

According to Neil Gaiman it was worked out...

Of course he was working out - he looked buff as Kylo and 20 years younger. When will everyone else acknowledge that Kylo is Gaiman?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 06 January, 2018, 04:01:55 PM
so its the writing you dont like
not being written in advance isnt why you dont like them

lucas made ot up as he went

I don't like a lot of the writing in TLJ, I'm just thinking about why it's written like it is, like whether TLJ would be better and the films would be in a better position in general if they'd been planned more. Or at least had one head writer with full oversight. I think they would be personally.

According to Neil Gaiman it was worked out to a certain point and he at least had an ending:

It would have ended up with Halo Jones upon some planet that is right at the absolute edge of the universe where, beyond that, beyond some sort of spectacular lightshow, there is no space, no time, and it would have ended up with Halo Jones – all the rest of the people on this planetoid because, actually, time is not passing; you could stay there forever, potentially – and what would have happened is that Halo Jones, after spending some time with the rest of the immortals, would have tottered across the landing field, got into her spacecraft, and flown into the psychedelic lightshow, to finally get out. And that would have been the ending.

http://www.3ammagazine.com/3am/boy-from-the-boroughs/3/

Thanks for that! I wish it'd get finished :'(

I think it's a work of unexpected and unlooked-for genius, that so far has done nothing but reward repeated scrutiny and thought.

I disagree with your verdict on ep 8 Tordelback, but I rather enjoy your enthusiasm! :D



: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Magnetica 06 January, 2018, 04:12:43 PM
TPM in 4th spot?

Have to say I’m just a little surprised.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: IndigoPrime 06 January, 2018, 04:19:50 PM
I'm just thinking about why it's written like it is
I'd wager at least part of this is down to diminished importance being given to the editing process. You see this throughout TV and movies these days in a manner that's much worse than even a decade ago, let alone several. Too many individuals have too much power, and script editors aren't powerful enough. Additionally, although you used to have drastic decisions made on the back of audience previews (Little Shop of Horrors being one of the most overt (https://thedissolve.com/features/movie-of-the-week/1016-the-spectacularly-tragic-little-shop-of-horrors-th/)), the 'science' of modern-day responses mean algorithms and too much data can have a hugely adverse effect on a great many movies.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 06 January, 2018, 04:30:40 PM
I'm just thinking about why it's written like it is
I'd wager at least part of this is down to diminished importance being given to the editing process. You see this throughout TV and movies these days in a manner that's much worse than even a decade ago, let alone several. Too many individuals have too much power, and script editors aren't powerful enough. Additionally, although you used to have drastic decisions made on the back of audience previews (Little Shop of Horrors being one of the most overt (https://thedissolve.com/features/movie-of-the-week/1016-the-spectacularly-tragic-little-shop-of-horrors-th/)), the 'science' of modern-day responses mean algorithms and too much data can have a hugely adverse effect on a great many movies.

Not sure that's really the case with The Last Jedi. Just going by Rian Johnson's consistent line about creative autonomy in the script and what he could do in the edit, and the fact Lucasfilm don't hold public screenings for Star Wars films – I believe TLJ had been seen by less that 20 people before the premiere.

I'm sure a more conservative studio figure would've cut a lot of TLJ out.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 06 January, 2018, 04:31:41 PM
TPM in 4th spot?

Have to say I’m just a little surprised.

Ah RotJ isn't that bad.

 ;)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 06 January, 2018, 04:37:40 PM
Too many individuals have too much power, and script editors aren't powerful enough.

Although I do agree not having a strong script editor can be a problem, sometimes.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 06 January, 2018, 05:28:51 PM
I don't know to what extent the sequel trilogy didn't have an overall plan relative to the highly fluid OT, but the degree of effort to which TLJ goes to draw the OT, the PT and TFA together is really remarkable, as is the awareness of and respect for these antecedents. Key scenes and conversations in both OT and PT are merged, reversed and reworked, and given a new unity in the context of the ST and the overall saga.  As one example, Rey and Kylo's final face-to-face conversation in the throne room takes Padme and Anakin's final scene from RotS , and mixes in Vader and Luke's final face-to-face from TESB, but concludes with an entirely different 'victor'. Similarly, Luke and Kylo's final duel takes Vader and Kenobi's showdown conversations from both ANH and RotS, and reframes them.

One of my favourite scenes is where Luke finally opens himself to the Force again, and reprises the pivotal moment in TESB where Leia hears his cry for help.  Her awakening, his re-awakening, her awakening of a different sort.  But this also serves to remind us that Leia's force-powers shouldn't have been a surprise, and that Jedi could always communicate at a distance: much as Snoke tossing Hux about reminds us that Vader too could work through the Force at interstellar distances, so it shouldn't be surprise when Rey, Kylo and finally Luke take this a step further.
  Very few of the 'surprises' in TLJ come without a clear precedent, and often an explicit reference to that precedent, even if we didn't recognise them as such

TLJ isn't simply copying or homaging these scenes for nostalgic effect, it's continuing to explore their themes and implications, and find new ways forwards, in the process knitting these 8 films together in a very satisfying way, and showing that their possibilities are far from played out.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JLC 17 January, 2018, 10:57:53 AM
https://screenrant.com/star-wars-last-jedi-chinese-theaters/ (https://screenrant.com/star-wars-last-jedi-chinese-theaters/)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: manwithnoname 17 January, 2018, 11:33:57 AM
TPM in 4th spot?

Have to say I’m just a little surprised.

Ah RotJ isn't that bad.

 ;)

I like Return Of The Jedi. Rounded the trilogy off perfectly. Yeah, there's issues with it, but after the grimness of the previous chapter, I think a bit of happiness and light was justified.

Mind you, I was about 12 or 13 when I watched it for the first time.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 17 January, 2018, 11:44:56 AM
https://screenrant.com/star-wars-last-jedi-chinese-theaters/ (https://screenrant.com/star-wars-last-jedi-chinese-theaters/)

A Western film that makes a big deal about a young student coming to learn at the feet of a grumpy but venerated master storyline, only to go off on one saying that this whole sub-genre is a load of bullshit lapped up by morons, and Asian audiences weren't keen on it for some reason?  Even Sherlock Holmes can't solve this mystery.

Given how TLJ social media evangelicals usually take criticism of the film, I fully expect them to be calling for war with China any minute now.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: manwithnoname 17 January, 2018, 11:51:31 AM
https://screenrant.com/star-wars-last-jedi-chinese-theaters/ (https://screenrant.com/star-wars-last-jedi-chinese-theaters/)

A Western film that makes a big deal about a young student coming to learn at the feet of a grumpy but venerated master storyline, only to go off on one saying that this whole sub-genre is a load of bullshit lapped up by morons, and Asian audiences weren't keen on it for some reason?  Even Sherlock Holmes can't solve this mystery.

Given how TLJ social media evangelicals usually take criticism of the film, I fully expect them to be calling for war with China any minute now.

If it isn't big robots, monsters, superheroes or exploding cars, non-Chinese films have zero chance of success in China.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 17 January, 2018, 01:02:31 PM
If it isn't big robots, monsters, superheroes or exploding cars, non-Chinese films have zero chance of success in China.

Hmmm, now you mention it TLJ didn't have a monster, did it?  Very odd. Even Rogue 1 had a monster*.




*RotS didn't have one either, but only because Obi-Wan's fight with a water monster on Utapau was apparently cut during filming.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: manwithnoname 17 January, 2018, 01:06:56 PM
If it isn't big robots, monsters, superheroes or exploding cars, non-Chinese films have zero chance of success in China.

Hmmm, now you mention it TLJ didn't have a monster, did it?  Very odd. Even Rogue 1 had a monster*.




*RotS didn't have one either, but only because Obi-Wan's fight with a water monster on Utapau was apparently cut during filming.

I'm not sure a fleeting appearance of a monster would quite cut it with the Chinese. It needs to have monsters in it ALL THE TIME, and ideally stars a monster as the main character.

"The Adventures Of Sarlacc - HE EATS LADIES!" for example, might have worked
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 17 January, 2018, 01:15:56 PM
List of highest-grossing films in China. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_films_in_China)

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tiplodocus 27 January, 2018, 06:12:32 PM
Second visit today at an IMAX. Still loved it. Snoke looks miles better on the bigger brighter screen.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 27 January, 2018, 08:35:11 PM
I've done two IMAX trips myself now, 3D and 2D: they were both stunning experiences. Trying to squeeze in at least one more before its too late. Now without question my 4th favourite SW movie. Can't see Solo affecting its ranking, TBH.

(V-IV-VI-VIII-I-VII-R1-II-III)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 28 January, 2018, 12:07:28 AM
Now, without question, my least favourite Star wars film.

This film has actually managed to largely kill my 41 year passion for Star Wars, which I generally just cannot believe. I still think it's just completely awful in almost every way (liked Kylo.....that's it)........that's me almost certainly done with "modern" star wars.

 I just need Lando to be revealed as a paedophile in episode 9 and that's my childhood completely, well and truly,  defiled.

Cheers Disney!

Ps. Saw it twice.......first time I was bored and disappointed.....second time just completely disappointed and let down.

Bur.....I still have Indy......Crystal Skull may have been poor but at least it didn't thoroughly betray the integrity of it's characters.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 28 January, 2018, 12:18:24 AM
And as orders go.....

VI-V-IV-III-II-VII-I......................R1 (horrible)...VIII (travesty).
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Krakajac 28 January, 2018, 12:26:34 AM
Largely agree with you, SIP.  The Rotten Tomatoes audience score appears to be levelling off at about 49% - which is pretty dire when compared to other SW movies.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 28 January, 2018, 01:23:13 AM
Funny how the score levels off only after Disney have finally stopped trying to force Rotten Tomatoes to change it themselves through their allegations that an alt-right conspiracy was responsible for the low audience scores.  A cynical man - and lord knows I am not a cynical man - would almost think that Disney was aware of a way to game those review scores, hence its public comments on the matter, but now they've stopped drawing attention to that method and the scores go up.
That's a weird coincidence, isn't it?

This film has actually managed to largely kill my 41 year passion for Star Wars, which I generally just cannot believe.

To be fair, it's not so much the film as the fact that without at least one of the original trio, there's nothing left for OT fans to come back for, except maybe to see the Millennium Falcon get blown up in part 9.  Essentially, the story they've been following all these years is finished.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Eric Plumrose 28 January, 2018, 08:49:25 AM
Crystal Skull may have been poor but at least it didn't thoroughly betray the integrity of it's characters.

Marion's being a smitten kitten was absolutely one of the worst things INDY IV inflicted.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 28 January, 2018, 08:53:50 AM
Essentially, the story they've been following all these years is finished.

On this at least we can agree!  The story actually finished in 1983, it's just taken us this long to get to a new one. Did folk really go into these movies hoping for a satisfying continuation of their characters' stories? I can't see how that could have been, and still allowed new characters to be important. Our heroes had to fail and die, or there was no need for new ones: in the execution I though the ways in which this happened were true to the characters,  and remarkably heroic.

Personally I'd have started the sequel trilogy at about the point we are likely to find ourselves at in Episode IX, but I don't have billions of dollars to invest and hungry shareholders to feed. Now that they've chewed through most of their insanely expensive IP inventory, I'm interested to see where Disney take their investment.

OTOH circa 50% approval seems a fair representation of this thread. 

Still,  Indy V on the way,  that's bound to be ace,  eh?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 28 January, 2018, 08:54:56 AM
Crystal Skull may have been poor but at least it didn't thoroughly betray the integrity of it's characters.

Marion's being a smitten kitten was absolutely one of the worst things INDY IV inflicted.

Really?  I absolutely loved that bit. God that woman's smile could power cities.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Colin YNWA 28 January, 2018, 09:17:04 AM
To be fair, it's not so much the film as the fact that without at least one of the original trio, there's nothing left for OT fans to come back for, except maybe to see the Millennium Falcon get blown up in part 9.  Essentially, the story they've been following all these years is finished.

You say that as though its a bad thing. Lets move to new stories.

I do love a bit of Star Wars film rating. So my (Jedi) order is...

ESB > SW > LJ + RotJ* >>>>>>> R1 >>>>>>>>>>> AotC > tFA > RotS > PM

As ever I reserve my right to change my mind at the drop of a hat (the second trilogy scores as I've only watched them in chunks via my kids watching of them *they love them* and so are a little wonkily based on exciting snipets here and there.

*I'm still flimflaming over this one. I think I prefer LJ but I keep meaning to find time to watch Return again to make my mind up.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JamesC 28 January, 2018, 09:31:04 AM
To be fair, it's not so much the film as the fact that without at least one of the original trio, there's nothing left for OT fans to come back for, except maybe to see the Millennium Falcon get blown up in part 9.  Essentially, the story they've been following all these years is finished.

You say that as though its a bad thing. Lets move to new stories.

I do love a bit of Star Wars film rating. So my (Jedi) order is...

ESB > SW > LJ + RotJ* >>>>>>> R1 >>>>>>>>>>> AotC > tFA > RotS > PM

As ever I reserve my right to change my mind at the drop of a hat (the second trilogy scores as I've only watched them in chunks via my kids watching of them *they love them* and so are a little wonkily based on exciting snipets here and there.

*I'm still flimflaming over this one. I think I prefer LJ but I keep meaning to find time to watch Return again to make my mind up.

ROTJ is my favourite one but it’s worth noting that it’s the film that suffered worst from the ‘Special Edition’ releases. I can’t watch the SE version so stick to my original cut VHS instead. In the SE the pacing of the whole Tattoine section (which for my money is one of the greatest Star Wars sequences of them all) is completely ruined, as is the Sarlaac scene. They also ruined the ending.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 28 January, 2018, 09:39:39 AM
Ugh,  yeah,  the RotJ SE (and especially the v. 2.0 stuff) is mostly terrible. Yow-Yowza's teeth being the worst offender (completely undercutting the grimy threat of Jabba's Palace) closely followed by Force Ghost Hayden.  Not sure the pacing is badly affected,  though -  it was already pretty poor.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: IndigoPrime 28 January, 2018, 09:47:13 AM
Here, I'd say ESB > SW > TLJ > TFA == R1 > ROTJ >>>>>> TPM >>>>>>>>>>>>> ATOC >>>>>> [many days later] >>>>>>> ROTS.

But then I'm no SW nut. I like the originals for what they are, and had the toys etc. as a kid, but they were just another in a long line of things I enjoyed at the time. These days, they're fine. In all honestly, the wife and I enjoyed re-watching the Back to the Future trilogy more (and SW, as I've said before, is very weird with its Smurfette syndrome).

I quite like the new ones. They desperately need better script editors, but show me a modern film that doesn't.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 28 January, 2018, 09:48:24 AM
In total agreement on the jedi SE, all completely unnecessary.

I have high hoped for Indy V, I really do. I'm waiting on an announcement that it will be Spielbergs next project. Bottom line is they have already stated categorically that Indy will not be killed and that Lucas would be on board. For me that's good enough.

As for crystal skull, I thought if you took some of the sillier sequences out (monkey swinging), got rid of all the mac double/triple agent stuff.....it's a fairly decent adventure film. I'm certainly not a hater on that film, and liked the happy ending.

With regards to the character progression of the original trilogy heroes I'm not sure why we must expect them to fail and die? Why? They could have been used in great ways without any of the misery and death. Any writer worth his salt could have done that. Why must they effectively ruin the characters for me and Rob me of my 1983 happy ending? That didn't need to happen.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 28 January, 2018, 10:06:58 AM
Not dismissing your opinion, or saying your points are invalid, but I really think that once they decided to have the Big Three in it again,  I can't see how else it could have gone.

Either Han and Leia lived happily ever after, with a representative democracy and roguish Jedi kids,  or they didn't.
Either Luke successfully trained a new generation of balanced Jedi with none of the narrow monkish dogma and warlike tendencies of Yoda's gang, or he didn't.
If either of the former happened,  the new movies had to destroy all that to have any stakes at all.
If the latter,  then there was no happy ending.

The sequel trilogy chose a middle ground. The only other option was to move forward 50 or 100 years and let the old guard die in the beds off screen. And those films would never have been made,  because Disney wouldnt have taken the risk.

And while I'd rather they weren't involved at all,  I still don't see how Han, Leia and Luke's characters (and fates) are inconsistent with their established characters. In particular everything about Luke rang painfully true,  right down to that single petulant whine to Uncle Yoda.

Spoilers added at TB request.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 28 January, 2018, 11:21:02 AM
But I think that's only true where you are using the characters from that angle. Han Solo went back to his old smuggling ways, great, he could have dipped in and out of an adventure and been featured.....without what happened to him. Don't make him kylo's dad......he's then just "special guest star". We have a bit of fun, catch up with old Han, then han goes back to his life. Luke can feature in exactly the same way. Nothing dictates that he "trained a new generation of jedi" post return of the jedi. That's the way they chose to go in the film.  He could have just easily been living a quiet life and similarly been a character in the film who was involved and not pivotal.

They chose to write these characters in to the story in the negative way that they did. These characters are not significant to the overall story, we dont need them, the points of drama that they create, suchas han's death can easily be substituted. These are films about Rey and Kylo. They could so easily have been written in as fun sideline characters without the need for the misery , failure and death that was heaped upon them.

I would have enjoyed that. I do not enjoy the idea forced upon me that my heroes became miserable old failures, then swiftly despatched.  They deserved better than that, and so did I.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 28 January, 2018, 11:30:49 AM
If it had gone that way......I'd be sitting here saying "that was good fun".....like I'd expect from a star wars film.

Instead I sit here thinking "what a messy and mostly boring and unimaginitive exercise in misery and depression that was".

That was missing the spirit of Star wars completely and i'm entirely serious when I say that I wish it didn't exist. I'm desperately hoping that JJ can somehow drag something out of the bag with episode 9 that reverses some of the tragic misrepresentation of the character of luke skywalker that the last jedi produced. I just can't understand how anyone could misread a character that badly.

When there are hour long YouTube montages of Mark Hamill saying exactly that......you know you've gone completely wrong.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Jim_Campbell 28 January, 2018, 12:22:13 PM
They deserved better than that, and so did I.

The sense of self-entitlement dripping from your posts is palpable. There were some movies you enjoyed when you were a kid. Then someone made some follow-up movies when you were a grown-up that you didn't like.

No one came round your house and took away your DVDs, no one strapped you into an ECT machine and shocked your childhood memories out of you. What actually happened was you saw some movies you didn't like. Your "paedophile Lando" comment suggests you should probably get a bit of perspective here.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: DrRocka 28 January, 2018, 12:51:04 PM
D’you know I’m still waiting for the immortal words “Disney ruined my childhood”
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 28 January, 2018, 01:00:05 PM
Not dismissing your opinion, or saying your points are invalid, but I really think that once they decided to have the Big Three in it again,  I can't see how else it could have gone.

Either Han and Leia lived happily ever after, with a representative democracy and roguish Jedi kids,  or they didn't.

There are literally dozens of stories that could have been told about these characters that weren't about their lives becoming abject failures or plots that required galaxy-threatening stakes, and Disney chose to remake A New Hope, so it's not like they can really claim they were averse to going down a path of least resistance.
That eldsters can't be the stars of franchises, only mentors or living examples of the follies of getting stuck in your ways, is arguably just as limited a lens for storytelling as dashing rogues marrying princesses and living happily ever after.  Nothing about these stories was inevitable or set in stone.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 28 January, 2018, 01:10:08 PM
They deserved better than that, and so did I.

The sense of self-entitlement dripping from your posts is palpable. There were some movies you enjoyed when you were a kid. Then someone made some follow-up movies when you were a grown-up that you didn't like.

No one came round your house and took away your DVDs, no one strapped you into an ECT machine and shocked your childhood memories out of you. What actually happened was you saw some movies you didn't like. Your "paedophile Lando" comment suggests you should probably get a bit of perspective here.

I have perspective Jim.....I'm discussing a film on a website. I've had far bigger issues to deal with this weekend than a stupid film. I'm discussing here as a form of escapism, just as I used to enjoy these films as escapism.

In no way does me discussing my disappointment in the direction taken with something that has been a significant part of my life classify me as "self entitled". I'm sure you can defend the film if you wish without the need for personal criticism?

And clearly the Lando comment was a sarcastic shot fired due to the degradation of the other original trilogy characters in the new films. Please feel free to take it as such.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Jim_Campbell 28 January, 2018, 01:19:16 PM
In no way does me discussing my disappointment in the direction taken with something that has been a significant part of my life classify me as "self entitled". I'm sure you can defend the film if you wish without the need for personal criticism?

Talking about what you "deserve" is the text-book definition of self-entitlement. The only thing you "deserved" was to be entertained for two and a bit hours in return for the ticket price you paid. Given that you stated well in advance that you didn't expect to enjoy the film, you could have saved yourself the money.

And I'm not defending the film — I thought it was OK when I saw it, but the more distance I get from it, the less I like it. Given that I didn't like TFA much either, I'm not sure I'll bother with IX, and I'm OK with that.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Big_Dave 28 January, 2018, 01:26:33 PM
There are literally dozens of stories that could have been told about these characters that weren't about their lives becoming abject failures or plots that required galaxy-threatening stakes

star wars = ww2 / sequels = cold war
ewoks (communists) go from ally to enemy

rebels use empire science
to build thousands of bigger death stars
 
ewok stalin builds bigger catapults
& log traps 2 destroy them   threads/
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 28 January, 2018, 01:27:47 PM
It's well recorded on this notice board that I'd been looking forward to the film for 2 years......I did not think I wouldn't enjoy it before I went in to the cinema. The only time I started to feel anxious about the film was when Mark Hamill's well documented issues started to hit the Internet.  If luke skywalker himself thinks you've completely missed the essence of his character, then there is likely a problem.

It was only about a halfway through the film did I realise that I wasn't enjoying it at all.

I'm sort of not fine with it......I'm a complete star wars geek. I'm heavily invested in star wars, always have been....so I'm surely allowed to voice my extreme disappointment in something I've wanted to watch for 35 years? Star wars isn't a casual thing for me, it's been a fundamental part of my life since I was 4. So this stung a bit.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 28 January, 2018, 02:27:33 PM
And I'm not taking that away from you at all, I don't think you're acting entitled, and I get where you're coming from. I was completely disgusted by the end of Revenge of the Sith, to the point that it put me off Star Wars completely for years, and I had been (and remain) a Prequel Apologist.

However, I cannot really imagine a "regular" Star Wars episode without a galaxy-scale threat (unless we're talking about TPM , of course...  :think:), never mind a new trilogy, and I cannot imagine any circumstances where Han, Luke and Leia wouldn't get involved in confronting that, until they were dead.  A film where Han turned his back on the plight of his friends/family would be a real betrayal of that character's journey.  And one where Luke did likewise... well, wasn't that many people's problem with this one?

Leave 'em out of it, or feature them and kill 'em.  Those were the only choices I can imagine.  I wish it had been the former, but then we wouldn't have had any films at all (yet) and I really enjoyed the two we got.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 28 January, 2018, 02:45:44 PM
Picking up on Bear's solid points, I do agree that nothing was set in stone - but the overall direction taken by Disney was to re-use the 'good bits' of Star Wars (Rebels, Empire, likeable trainee Jedi on a hero's journey, wise but flawed mentors, the lure of the Dark Side, family tragedy and redemption) that we spent more than a decade bemoaning the absence of.  The destruction of the peace our heroes had won had to happen - it was only a question of whether it was decades or centuries later.  Financial sense won out over artistic creativity, and we got to watch our childhood heroes being broken: but their dreams reborn.

Incidentally, I am a late convert.  This is me the day after the Disney buy-out news:

As a fanboy myself, the most amusing thing about all this is how Star Wars fandom is going to deal with not having Lucas as a whipping boy any more.  Oh this is going to make those debates about his 'disregard for canon' seem as utterly trivial as they always were.

If anyone involved has any sense they'll chuck those legendary 'treatments' in the bin, hire Hamill for a force-ghost appearance only, skip ahead 200 years and tell a whole new story in the old setting.  Sadly the laws of the business mean that the next film will be wall-to-wall with reprises and heavy-handed knowing homages to the previous 6, with some Johnny Depp thrown in for luck. 

Obviously the prophecy wasn't clear, and Depp ended up in the Harry Potter Prequels instead.  Looks like 88.8% accuracy wasn't good enough.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 28 January, 2018, 03:53:52 PM
I just can't understand how anyone could misread a character that badly.

When there are hour long YouTube montages of Mark Hamill saying exactly that......you know you've gone completely wrong.

Apart from a few quotes of him relating his initial reaction to reading the script, a lot of the content in those videos doesn't directly relate to The Last Jedi –half the time he's talking about The Force Awakens or something else– and are mostly a mash-up of edited facial reactions and him basically repeating statements about the film being not what you'd expect.

If luke skywalker himself thinks you've completely missed the essence of his character, then there is likely a problem.

But he had countered even his own initial misgivings.

"I've had trouble accepting what he saw for Luke, but again, I have to say, having seen the movie, I was wrong," – Mark Hamill, Dec 13, 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OONALPqf3X8
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 28 January, 2018, 04:07:01 PM
No Joe, can't agree with you there, he has made a multitude of comments, mostly during the publicity TV and press interviews for the Last Jedi. He has been quite verbose in detailing that this is not the Luke Skywalker he knows, to the point that he was in constant disagreement with the director on set and that he eventually decided that he was actually playing a completely different character, who he referred to as "jake" Skywalker.

There are literally HOURS of him talking like this on every chat show, red carpet and press junket that he appeared at. The same negative comments over and over.

His negative commenting got to such a prolific level that I suspect, and it's pure speculation, but Disney must have given him a slap on the wrist. It would surely have been a contractual issue for Hamill to persist in his obvious negative attitude to the film, it's missteps with his character and his feeling that it was all only concerned with profiteering.

As I say, speculation.....but wouldn't seem like good business practice for Disney to let one of their employees continue to take shots at their upcoming product.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 28 January, 2018, 05:00:06 PM
Well I adore Mark Hamill,  but even if his misgivings were as stated (and that wasn't my reading at all)  he is just the guy who played Luke in the movies, not Luke himself, or even the guys who wrote the lines. I can see why you might be shocked to see your old hero character from 30 years ago transformed to a reluctant mentor role,  or indeed momentarily giving in to fear - a scene he filmed three different ways, remember. But that's why one goal of fiction is character development, not character stasis: because it's interesting, and maybe surprising. Was Luke really only tempted by the Dark Side, and a violent solution, twice in his whole life?

Can I be curious,  and ask SIP what specifically he would have liked to see Luke do in the film?

EDIT: thanks for the spoiler tags,  Bolt!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 28 January, 2018, 05:13:59 PM
Ugh,  I'm in double post mode today. Would note that Mark Hamill disagrees with one element of Luke's characterisation in TESB, and he says it a lot more forcefully than his TLJ remarks,  which I read as being a calculated attempt to build suspense and anticipation for a bold vision,  in the sense of "even I can't believe what happens to Luke, and I play the guy!", and in the wake of widespread accusations that nothing new happened in TFA.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 28 January, 2018, 05:16:54 PM


I would have played luke as an extension of the man he was in the scene in jedi when he threw his lightsabre down in front of the emperor. I didn't need to see him a bitter, defeated man.
He could still be the hero that he was, and willingly come to the aid of Leia and Rey in the fight against the First Order.

He could have been given an epic heroic sacrifice sequence (where he was actually present), similar in spirit to what the end of last jedi was meant to be going for, against overwhelming odds.......and i'm good with him eventually losing that fight , because he's effectively immortal.

You could have achieved the same outcome that the film achieved without beating down and tarnishing a much loved character.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 28 January, 2018, 05:19:28 PM
I'm assuming you've seen these countless interviews with Hamill in the run up to Last Jedi TordelBack, that's not a man drumming up publicity........he seemed convincingly despondent with it.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: DrRocka 28 January, 2018, 05:52:39 PM
I would have had Luke still training his Jedi school, and reaching the crucial moment in their training when they feel the pull of the dark side (similar to the point when he leaves Yoda in ESB), then events elsewhere in the galaxy (featuring Han and Leia, natch) mean he must face a choice; leave his school to possibly tear itself apart (and the ramfications that would have), or go and save the galaxy and his friends. And then we get to see him deal with fallout of his impossible choice. He’s a hero, who’s screwed either way.

But Disney seldom ring me for plot advice.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 28 January, 2018, 05:57:01 PM
I'm hardly going to change any minds with this, but I appreciate the discussion greatly: having just read a comment thread where people argued that Children of Men* is an anti-immigration parable because it shows how refugees fucked up Britain, a civilised chat like this seems a precious thing.  So:

He could still be the hero that he was, and willingly come to the aid of Leia and Rey in the fight against the First Order.

But he still had to fail first, and lose his students, for Rey (and him) to be the last hope  So he was always defeated.  And if he had been away trying to learn how to defeat Snoke and Ren, instead of removing himself from the Force, he has to fail at that too, or it invalidates the whole point of Rey (and Finn, and Poe) being the new trilogy's hero(es).  And in the end, he does come willingly back to the fight, knowing that it will kill him whatever happens.

He could have been given an epic heroic sacrifice sequence (where he was actually present), similar in spirit to what the end of last jedi was meant to be going for, against overwhelming odds....

But he did make an epic, heroic sacrifice, he just did it without violently confronting his nephew (again), his only sister's only child... That's what makes him Luke Skywalker. He's not a warrior, he never was.  No good comes of using the Force for violence, despite the very best of intentions (see Anakin, see Obi-Wan, see his own failure with Ben).  He believes the solution is to break the cycle of master and student, to remove himself and his tainted Skywalker legacy from the story, then he realises that this too is arrogance.

Ah what the heck, look: I find Luke's portrayal in TLJ genuinely inspiring, and it makes me love and respect the character more than ever.  If you don't, that's okay, but it is a pity.



*One of the greatest SF movies ever made, IMO.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 28 January, 2018, 06:09:55 PM
Can I be curious,  and ask SIP what specifically he would have liked to see Luke do in the film?

Any answer that isn't "suck on space walrus titties like he just doesn't give a fuck" is a lie.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 28 January, 2018, 06:11:39 PM
There are literally HOURS of him talking like this on every chat show, red carpet and press junket that he appeared at. The same negative comments over and over.

If you take the entire interviews maybe it amounts to hours but I don't see it for just extracted quotes, not the ones I've watched. Not that it matters how long it is if interviewers continue to ask him the same question because it's an easy grab.


it's pure speculation, but Disney must have given him a slap on the wrist.

I'll take Hamill at his word(s) –all of them– rather than parse his statements into divergent motivations but Hamill has been expressing 2 sides to this sentiment since he began promoting the film.

I don't think he'd need to make a statement like this if he didn't feel strongly about it – he could've just said nothing.

"I'm really enjoying the conversations about #TheLastJedi both Pro AND Con, "Everyone's entitled to their own opinion-but let me make one thing perfectly clear: Neither Disney or Lucasfilm has ever complained or told me what to say-EVER."

http://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/12/30/mark-hamill-star-wars-the-last-jedi-comments-disney/
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 28 January, 2018, 06:13:24 PM
I don't see any need for Luke having "failed" at anything. You are arguing from the confines of what has been made, eg. Kylo as lukes nephew. In alternate take on these films, luke could just be happily living out the quiet life, no need for him having to have failed at training new jedi.

If we are sticking to the confines of force awakens, lukes failure only needs to be that Kylo was fundamentally bad so he didn't complete his training. The magnitude of how badly that has panned out could have been a complete mystery to luke as we join him in last jedi.

I've no desire to have your mind changed, nor have you change mine TordelBack, I take no issue with people enjoying the last jedi, I'm glad that people do. I'm only sad that I will never be one of those people as I can't get along with the treatment of the original cast. It's just not the way I wanted it to go for my own continued enjoyment.

Just my opinion.......I will shuffle off now happy that others, as so often happens, do not share it!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 28 January, 2018, 06:28:19 PM
If we are sticking to the confines of force awakens, lukes failure only needs to be that Kylo was fundamentally bad so he didn't complete his training. The magnitude of how badly that has panned out could have been a complete mystery to luke as we join him in last jedi.

That doesn't really sell why he decided to get lost and disappear to an island for several years. Luke needed to have a deeper stake in Ben's fall to make that work.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 28 January, 2018, 06:28:41 PM
Please don't shuffle off, SIP!  But...

... lukes failure only needs to be that Kylo was fundamentally bad ...

Is there anything in the rest of Star Wars that suggests this is likely? (Even Jabba loved his son!). Once Ben was part of the Skywalker family, he had to have a choice, and as his mentor, Luke had to fail him. That failure being dramatised as a moment of fear and weakness was a reminder that Luke too had (and has) that choice. A perfectly good Luke is just as boring as a perfectly evil Kylo - or Vader.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 29 January, 2018, 09:44:17 AM
Just to sideline the debate, as I know I'm never going to be on the same page with this one, what jars so badly with you about Revenge of the Sith Tordels?

The only real issues for me are that it needs to jam too much in due to wasted time in episodes 1 and 2, anakins conversion is too quick (though I think his motivations are valid), and the younglings thing overstepped. Other than that I think it's decent. McDairmid is great in it too.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 29 January, 2018, 10:40:29 AM
Oh lordy, I feel like I've written all this so many times over the years, but never let it be said there's finite limit to my bitterness.  There's lots of good stuff in RotS - the opening sequence is a speedy greatest-hits romp, Kashyyyk, Utapau and the various theatres of war look great, there's some nice imagery on Mustafar, Ian McDiarmid never disappoints and his soliloquies are all good, the music is uniformly terrific. 

But once we get into the third act it all turns to shit.  It's like Lucas just remembered that he's supposed to be tying things up, and he hasn't thought at all about how to do it. So he sacrifices any pretence of plot, and just picks up his characters and places them where we find them in ANH.  It's ghastly.  Anakin turns evil because; Palps kills the Jedi Council just so; Padme just dies (and directly contradicts Luke and Leia's sole reference to their mother); Obi-Wan beats Vader (despite his New Powers, whatever those are) because he has the high ground;  Palps has a pre-designed Vader suit just lying about his medical facility; the twins get palmed off to where they have to be, Yoda flies off to Dagobah, the Death Star gets built, Tarkin appears and the droids get left on the Tantive IV with Captain Antilles.  Th universe enters a state of perfect stasis for 19 years until we drop in again for Episode IV.  Was that everything ticked off?  Did we miss anything? No? Good, roll credits.

These were supposed to be stories in their own right, but also ones that showed how things came to be, but instead it turns into pure teleology: there's little or no reason given for any of it, and leaving it to The Clone Wars cartoon to fill in the blanks is utter balls.  Utterly and completely disappointing.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: manwithnoname 29 January, 2018, 10:48:10 AM
Unlike The Last Jedi, which is a machine-tooled, precision mechanism of coherent story-telling and plotting, which explained everything so well, and slotted right into the previous film's world-building.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 29 January, 2018, 10:50:02 AM
So.....you didn't like it then?   :lol:

I think anakins reasons are quite strong and I don't have a problem with it. Handled far too rapidly, yes, but his contempt for the councils actions (the jedi really are a bunch of arrogant and dodgy geezers) and the fear of his visions over his wife are just cause.....it's just should have happened over a couple of films.

The high ground thing is very silly.
Padme losing the will to live is silly.

The Vader suit.... .I'm thinking in this society of high technology, it's not really a big stretch to put together that suit on Coruscant during the flight back from Mustafar.

As for Leias memories of her mother.... .from my point of view she's referencing Bail Organas wife in Return of the Jedi, not Padme.  This would explain her memories of her mother compared to Lukes.

The other silly little pieces of slotting characters in where they needed to be, the druids, yoda, the death star, the babies to tattooing, all happen as footnotes to the film over a 5 minute sequence......not a big deal for me, and just an exercise in loose end tying. I just see them as a little epilogue rather than a core part of the film.

What sith also has is artistic creativity and imagination in abundance.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 29 January, 2018, 10:56:59 AM
Unlike The Last Jedi, which is a machine-tooled, precision mechanism of coherent story-telling and plotting, which explained everything so well, and slotted right into the previous film's world-building.

The Last Jedi deals with the 'mysteries' it inherits head-on, and wrong-foots us with its solutions. Revenge of the Sith just skips from one setup (the Prequels) to another (the OT) without doing anything with its long-standing puzzles. 

How does the Emperor defeat the Jedi Council?  He hit them with his lightsabre.   How did Obi-Wan beat Vader? He hit him with his lightsabre. What happened to Luke and Leia's mother? She just died, and presumably someone else posed as Leia's 'real' mother that she remembers, in addition to her adoptive mother. Why do some Jedi vanish and then appear as ghosts?  Qui-Gon told them how (how?). Did the midichlorians create Anakin? Who cares. It's pure balls.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 29 January, 2018, 11:01:45 AM
Unlike The Last Jedi, which is a machine-tooled, precision mechanism of coherent story-telling and plotting, which explained everything so well, and slotted right into the previous film's world-building.

The Last Jedi deals with the 'mysteries' it inherits head-on, and wrong-foots us with its solutions. Revenge of the Sith just skips from one setup (the Prequels) to another (the OT) without doing anything with its long-standing puzzles.

It was Last Jedi's constant need to "wrong-foot" the audience that worked to its detriment I feel. Things that had been set up as intriguing and potentially exciting, we're flipped constantly into something anti climatic. They overdid it, and in doing so robbed episode 9 of a lot of its potential.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 29 January, 2018, 11:03:54 AM
You know that moment on the cliff with luke you waited for......cheap gag, nothing to see here.  Remember that mysterious leader snoke.....yeah, nothing to see here. Remember the mystery of Reys heritage.....yeah, nothing to see here.

Remember when you cared just a little of what might happen next? Yeah.....nothing to see here.

Kylo is the only character left of any interest. Rey, Finn and Poe were all robbed of any of the charm that they displayed in Force Awakens.

Damn.....I got sucked back into the last jedi debate....   
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 29 January, 2018, 11:33:38 AM
The Last Jedi deals with the 'mysteries' it inherits head-on, and wrong-foots us with its solutions. Revenge of the Sith just skips from one setup (the Prequels) to another (the OT) without doing anything with its long-standing puzzles.

The Last Jedi takes the path of least resistance just like Sith does and resolves every dangling mystery in the easiest possible way.  "Who are Ray's parents?"  Nobody.  "Who is Snoke?"  Nobody.  "Why is Luke in hiding like a coward?"  Because he is.  "Why is Ben evil?"  He just is.

I'm surprised you won't give Sith the benefit of the doubt on some of your criticisms, though, TB, like the galaxy going into stasis for 19 years because Palpy has made plans across decades to ensure the Jedi simply have no moves left to play, while Obi-Wan defeats Anakin because Anakin was arrogant enough to believe he could jump just a little bit higher than he actually could.  I grant you that - like most of the PT - it works a bit better as a paradigm or romantic notion than it does as a narrative.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: manwithnoname 29 January, 2018, 11:39:26 AM
Yeah, I love how they "wrong-footed" us with that cheap-as-fuck (literally) throw-away visual joke with the lightsaber.

Although no doubt it was to show us that our long-held beliefs in the righteousness of the Jedi Order/ Luke's beatification in the series so far/ whatever are being rightly vast aside for a brave new world of modern story-telling!

And that Canto Blight bit? Capitalism = child slavery and nasty weapons-dealers! AMIRIGHT!?

Fuck yeah, get Finn on some space-camels and wreck the joint, with whatever the fuck that annoying character was called.

Clunky and embarrassing.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Link Prime 29 January, 2018, 11:51:48 AM
I still think it's just completely awful in almost every way

Have to disagree with the word 'almost' in this quote.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 29 January, 2018, 12:30:24 PM
I still think it's just completely awful in almost every way

Have to disagree with the word 'almost' in this quote.

I really liked Adam Driver in the film........so he alone earned the "almost". I WAS enjoying Snoke for a little bit, but then they ruined that.

And dear lord......that whole Canto Blight thing.....jesus......I felt like it really insulted my 9 year old sons intelligence.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: manwithnoname 29 January, 2018, 12:33:21 PM
I still think it's just completely awful in almost every way

Have to disagree with the word 'almost' in this quote.

I really liked Adam Driver in the film........so he alone earned the "almost". I WAS enjoying Snoke for a little bit, but then they ruined that.

Emo Darth was, tragically, one of the most interesting characters in TLJ.

Admittedly being more interesting than Mary Sue Rey isn't hard, although she was much better in this film than The Force Awakens, so there's been improvement in both.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 29 January, 2018, 12:36:20 PM
He's interesting AND entertaining to watch......and I for one am rooting for him being victorious and ruling the galaxy as a twisted, evil overlord by the end of 9. Now that would be a good twist.

Kylo for the win!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: manwithnoname 29 January, 2018, 12:38:16 PM
He's interesting AND entertaining to watch......and I for one am rooting for him being victorious and ruling the galaxy as a twisted, evil overlord by the end of 9. Now that would be a good twist.

Yeah, because that's going to happen.

I don't think Disney have done a really dark and weird ending since The Black Hole in 1979
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JamesC 29 January, 2018, 12:47:02 PM
TLJ is a far better film than ROTS. I agree with lot of points here on both sides though.

The film has lots of flaws but despite that I enjoyed it. Hamill is great despite some his material being less so and I'd agree that Kylo Ren is the most interesting character, with Driver being excellent.

To be honest I was more disappointed in Rey's ark than anything. Over the course of two films I don't think she's really become a character I know or care about the way I had with Luke, Leia and Han (and even the droids) by the end of ESB.

Long before these new sequels were a thing, my friend and I had a preferred scenario while imagining what might happen. This was that after ROTJ the new republic effectively outlaws force use. They've become paranoid about force users and understandably don't want people with mind control powers hanging around their newly formed government. As far as they know, the only trained force user left in the galaxy is Luke - so they give him a gold watch and tell him to begone (overruling and undermining Leia in the process).
I still quite like this idea and think it could have worked fairly well as an explanation for Luke's absence within the new trilogy.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 29 January, 2018, 01:05:23 PM
I would argue that ROTS was a far better film than The Last Jedi. There are a lot of things I love in ROTS, not much for me to love in TLJ.

The Finn and Poe storylines are often so turgid, stupid, cringeworthy and preachy, that any good work done by Adam Driver and Mark Hamill (who is excellent in his portrayal of Jake) is completely lost.

ROTS has many problems, but none that overwhelm the film itself.

Any future viewings of last jedi will involve me skipping probably 90 minutes of its run time.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Goaty 29 January, 2018, 01:08:04 PM
But you went see it twice?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 29 January, 2018, 01:11:51 PM
But you went see it twice?

Yes. The first time because I'm a star wars fan.

The second time because my older brother, who is the world's biggest star wars fan, was having an extremely hard time and wanted to see the film......so I went with him rather than him going alone.

Be under no illusion that I went because I wanted to see the film again!

As it turned out, it did not lift his mood.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tiplodocus 29 January, 2018, 04:21:56 PM
Yeah, I love how they "wrong-footed" us with that cheap-as-fuck (literally) throw-away visual joke with the lightsaber.

Although no doubt it was to show us that our long-held beliefs in the righteousness of the Jedi Order/ Luke's beatification in the series so far/ whatever are being rightly vast aside for a brave new world of modern story-telling!

And that Canto Blight bit? Capitalism = child slavery and nasty weapons-dealers! AMIRIGHT!?

Fuck yeah, get Finn on some space-camels and wreck the joint, with whatever the fuck that annoying character was called.

Clunky and embarrassing.

She's called ROSE. And while it can be fun to pretend that you don't remember character names, it is also a tactic employed a lot by people who have an agenda deeper than film.criticism.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 29 January, 2018, 04:35:57 PM
I thought he meant Holdo.

On the subject of Rose, I assumed she was there as a deliberate sop to the overseas market, particularly the country of CharactersThatSuckia.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: manwithnoname 29 January, 2018, 04:50:32 PM
Yeah, I love how they "wrong-footed" us with that cheap-as-fuck (literally) throw-away visual joke with the lightsaber.

Although no doubt it was to show us that our long-held beliefs in the righteousness of the Jedi Order/ Luke's beatification in the series so far/ whatever are being rightly vast aside for a brave new world of modern story-telling!

And that Canto Blight bit? Capitalism = child slavery and nasty weapons-dealers! AMIRIGHT!?

Fuck yeah, get Finn on some space-camels and wreck the joint, with whatever the fuck that annoying character was called.

Clunky and embarrassing.

She's called ROSE. And while it can be fun to pretend that you don't remember character names, it is also a tactic employed a lot by people who have an agenda deeper than film.criticism.

Rose. Great. I had no idea, possibly because she was a shit character.

I have no idea what the Benicio Del Toro character was called either. But please, don't tell me, or try and read anything into it, because I don't care.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 29 January, 2018, 05:47:51 PM
You have got to give me the number of that charm school, manwithnoname.

The Last Jedi takes the path of least resistance just like Sith does and resolves every dangling mystery in the easiest possible way.  "Who are Ray's parents?"  Nobody.  "Who is Snoke?"  Nobody.  "Why is Luke in hiding like a coward?"  Because he is.  "Why is Ben evil?"  He just is.

First off, this isn't the final movie in the way Sith was, so not all answers are necessarily on the table.  Second, as you know, many of the faults there lie with the way mysteries were established in TFA with no thought to their solution: I would have expected that with three films to play with, Lucas could have delivered more than Johnson managed with one. 

Specifically in the case of Rey's parents, this is a new and exciting answer in itself - not a secret Disney princess after all, just No-one from Nowhere.  I can't think of a (plausible) answer that is as interesting as that.  In the case of Luke, he's seen himself/his role/the Jedi as the problem and removed himself in the hope of breaking the cycle (although his choice of retreat and hoarding of the Jedi books suggests he was hoping to find another solution): that's an interesting answer too, although not the only possible one.  Snoke is indeed more of an issue, both in himself, and in relation to Ben's fall - I'm hoping this gets some kind of exploration in IX.  But for now, he served a pretty enjoyable dramatic purpose as a red herring, and to develop the theme that Masters are what their students grow beyond.

You're right about my not giving RotS the benefit of the doubt though, and TBH that reluctance probably comes down to one thing: Padme's pointless hand-waved death. Two-and-a-half movies as a brave, determined, pragmatic leader (alongside some truly awful romantic decisions), and the only significant new character in the whole trilogy, then her hubby turns into a monster and she just gives up and dies, with two healthy babies in her arms, even when the one single thing we knew about her going into all this thing was that she lived long enough for Leia to remember her.  That sours everything else for me. It's just lazy bollocks.

I can see all the allegory, I can admire Palpatine's false-flag plan and subversion of the Republic (quite a lot, really: the militarisation of the Jedi leaving them scattered and surrounded by legions of armoured assassins, as well as morally compromised enough that a coup attempt wouldn't have seemed inconceivable: it's clever), I can enjoy the oodles of great design, but ultimately I had all these questions in my head for a quarter century, and the answers turned out to amount to a join-the-dots puzzle. Which may be more my fault than Lucas', but still means it feels very, very empty to me.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 29 January, 2018, 06:08:40 PM
I still think the explanation of Leias mother memories are covered in my comments above re ROTS Tordels.

But hell, I know you are a big Star wars fan and I appreciate the rational, considered arguments that you are putting forward. I agree on the padme death....it's complete rubbish, but I can overlook it. The rest of the film largely works for me (I'm easily into the 50-60+ viewings of ROTS).

Last jedi just didn't tick those same boxes with me. It didn't generate any emotions (ROTS generated lots), didn't give me any "wow" moments......it didnt excite me at any point....it just left me flat and incredibly disappointed.

But you're a gent sir, and I'm certain that we can agree to disagree.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 29 January, 2018, 06:25:23 PM
Would certainly hope that we can, SIP!   :thumbsup:

I still think the explanation of Leias mother memories are covered in my comments above re ROTS Tordels.

I have tried to ret-con it in that oh-so-flexible head canon of mine, but I just can't get past this line:

"Leia, do you remember your mother? Your real mother?"

Luke definitely knows from Obi-Wan that Leia is adopted, and from the way the question is framed, from Leia herself too. He asks about her 'real mother' as a lead-in to revealing that this person is also his mother.  I just can't believe he's making some generic point about remembering/not remembering mothers in general: this is a specific mother he's talking about - his. Theirs. Padme.

There's also balance here, suitable to the twin theme: Luke to his uncle and aunt, under Obi-Wan's protection, Leia with her mother, under Bail's.

Incidentally, on Luke's discarding of that bloody lightsaber, well good for him.  What's so special about that thing? Did he ever go looking for it himself?  He'd learnt it wasn't the heirloom of a loving heroic father, but the weapon of a monster.  We know (and maybe Luke knew at this point, given that he'd learned Palpatine was Darth Sidious) that Anakin's original blade was destroyed on Geonosis, that this one was knocked up as a replacement during the Clone Wars, used for mainly chopping up droids and then used to murder Dooku in cold blood, and then a roomful of children.  Yay, a storied blade, the very symbol of the legacy he had come to that island to escape.  Screw that thing.




: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Rara Avis 29 January, 2018, 07:17:42 PM
Went to see the movie again .. got the tracking bit completely arseways.

Thanks to y'all for not tearing me a new one  :-[ .. although maybe you did I haven't had time to go back and read through all the posts..
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Dandontdare 29 January, 2018, 07:42:15 PM
I'm assuming you've seen these countless interviews with Hamill in the run up to Last Jedi TordelBack, that's not a man drumming up publicity........he seemed convincingly despondent with it.

Countless? hardly. I have also seen the one where he says he regrets saying those things and "having seen the movie, I was wrong"
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 29 January, 2018, 07:46:08 PM
So were being pedantic over a turn of phrase now? Sheesh.

Okay, by countless I meant "a lot".  Well into double figures. I'd hate for the point to become lost in nitpicking over my use of English.

Sadly, I shall be more specific in future. Or we could just discuss the point?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 29 January, 2018, 07:53:41 PM
I'm very excited for this one. I'm hoping this is the film that tries something new and takes a few more risks. And the proper return of luke skywalker is what I have been excited about since it was revealed that they were making episode vii.

And, it'll help me forget about Rogue One 😊

Me from earlier on in the thread. Posted as I was previously accused of stating well in advance that I did not want to see The Last Jedi. Far from it.....I've been excited about it for 2 years.

Guess I got the "risks" I was after......though not quite what I had hoped for.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Dandontdare 29 January, 2018, 08:21:22 PM
So were being pedantic over a turn of phrase now? Sheesh.

Okay, by countless I meant "a lot".  Well into double figures. I'd hate for the point to become lost in nitpicking over my use of English.

Sadly, I shall be more specific in future. Or we could just discuss the point?

The point was that he said he was wrong and that it was a great movie
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 29 January, 2018, 08:24:34 PM
And he also made a large number of comments during many interviews that he did not like the direction of the film or the treatment of his character. That was my point. And the quote you have used of mine still stands in the context that it was used.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 29 January, 2018, 08:26:19 PM
Mrs Bail Organa WAS her real mother, TB, you insensitive monster.

then her hubby turns into a monster and she just gives up and dies

(https://image.ibb.co/kd1tUR/pods.jpg)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 29 January, 2018, 08:44:15 PM
Arf!

Mrs Bail Organa WAS her real mother, TB, you insensitive monster.

I did feel bad when writing that, but let's face it, Luke's the one at fault here.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Keef Monkey 30 January, 2018, 10:58:47 AM
And he also made a large number of comments during many interviews that he did not like the direction of the film or the treatment of his character. That was my point. And the quote you have used of mine still stands in the context that it was used.

I've seen a few 'When I read the script I wasn't sure or happy with what they'd done with Luke...' style clips passed around the internet, but in every case they turned out to be edited deceptively. I haven't found one that, on finding the original clip, wasn't followed by a '...but then I realized I was wrong and this was exactly what the story needed' type resolution. Seems like a lot of interviews have been chopped up to serve the narrative.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 30 January, 2018, 05:15:08 PM
then her hubby turns into a monster and she just gives up and dies

(https://image.ibb.co/kd1tUR/pods.jpg)
What's the thing that looks a bit like a fried egg?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 30 January, 2018, 05:18:59 PM
Would certainly hope that we can, SIP!   :thumbsup:

I still think the explanation of Leias mother memories are covered in my comments above re ROTS Tordels.

I have tried to ret-con it in that oh-so-flexible head canon of mine, but I just can't get past this line:

"Leia, do you remember your mother? Your real mother?"

Luke definitely knows from Obi-Wan that Leia is adopted, and from the way the question is framed, from Leia herself too. He asks about her 'real mother' as a lead-in to revealing that this person is also his mother.  I just can't believe he's making some generic point about remembering/not remembering mothers in general: this is a specific mother he's talking about - his. Theirs. Padme.

There's also balance here, suitable to the twin theme: Luke to his uncle and aunt, under Obi-Wan's protection, Leia with her mother, under Bail's.


Yep, I can't get my head into the convoluted gymnastics required for one adopted person to say that line to another adopted person and mean anything other than biological mother, or for the respondee to do likewise.

Incidentally, on Luke's discarding of that bloody lightsaber, well good for him.  What's so special about that thing? Did he ever go looking for it himself?  He'd learnt it wasn't the heirloom of a loving heroic father, but the weapon of a monster.  We know (and maybe Luke knew at this point, given that he'd learned Palpatine was Darth Sidious) that Anakin's original blade was destroyed on Geonosis, that this one was knocked up as a replacement during the Clone Wars, used for mainly chopping up droids and then used to murder Dooku in cold blood, and then a roomful of children.  Yay, a storied blade, the very symbol of the legacy he had come to that island to escape.  Screw that thing.


Yep - everybody in the cinema burst out laughing at that scene when I saw it (haven't seen it again since, but should while it's still running).  Also more than happy that Rey isn't a lost princess / another member of the Skywalker clan - there's far too many chosen ones who inherited their power instead of actually finding their own way in fiction already.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 30 January, 2018, 05:26:35 PM
What's the thing that looks a bit like a fried egg?


Tide-Pod (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2018/01/13/teens-are-daring-each-other-to-eat-tide-pods-we-dont-need-to-tell-you-thats-a-bad-idea/?utm_term=.099d85d77e81)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Eric Plumrose 30 January, 2018, 06:08:28 PM
Marion's being a smitten kitten was absolutely one of the worst things INDY IV inflicted.

Really?  I absolutely loved that bit. God that woman's smile could power cities.

That 'bit' lasted half the sodding film!

In total agreement about Karen Allen's smile, though.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 02 February, 2018, 09:02:37 AM
So, my new way of looking at episodes 7-9 is to consider the films as a "what if?"/elseworld sort of thing.

For me, none of the original trilogy characters, Han, Leia, Luke, Chewbacca or even Yoda, feel or act like the characters from the original trilogy. I have a difficult time reconciling that these are the same people........so episodes 7 to 9 are now a parallel dimension of Star wars, a "what if all of your heroes failed?" Set of stories.

That's how I'm going to live with them anyway. My OT characters saved the galaxy and all lived happily ever after. Hooray!  This will help me sleep at night 😊

Anyway.....NEXT!
"Han Solo" trailer reported to be released this coming Monday. Can Ron Howard save it? Fingers crossed........I still have hope.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Dandontdare 02 February, 2018, 09:37:59 AM
"Save" it? Sounds like you've made your mind up before the trailer's even out
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 02 February, 2018, 09:57:30 AM
"Save" it? Sounds like you've made your mind up before the trailer's even out

Where do people keep getting this idea that I'm always ready to jump all over new star wars? I give opinion on something when I've experienced it.....not before. I mostly liked Force Awakens.....didn't like Rogue One (I did at first.....just not later), and don't like last jedi. All of those films I paid to see at least twice.

I would note that I was positive and enthusiastic in my comments on all of these films BEFORE I had seen them.

No sir, I'm referring to the controversy surrounding the film, with the high profile dismissal by Disney of the films original directors (following creative differences with Kasdan) after a significant proportion of the shooting had been completed.

Ron Howard was effectively brought on to "save" the film by reportedly sticking closer to Kasdan's vision than the original directing team was and reshoot when necessary......hence my comment.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 02 February, 2018, 10:04:08 AM
As per every star wars film (including "the clone wars" movie), I shall be first in line on opening day. I've hardly made my mind up. I WANT this to be good.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Dandontdare 02 February, 2018, 10:50:35 AM
sorry, I got the wrong end of the stick. I don't follow all the pre-release news and gossip about movies, partly because there are too many idiots who wind me up, and mainly for spoilers - not so much plot-spoilers, but just general scuttlebutt - I find it's very hard NOT to go into a film with preconceptions if I've been reading about it for the past year*. I just watch the stuff when it comes out and enjoy it or not.

* when Dredd came out, as you can imagine there was a long busy thread on here beforehand - I made a conscious decision to avoid it for the alst 6 months so I'd go into the movie 'fresh' - regretted that as the regulars who'd been contributing got their names included in block graffiti and billboards in the finished movie!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 02 February, 2018, 10:54:41 AM
sorry, I got the wrong end of the stick. I don't follow all the pre-release news and gossip about movies, partly because there are too many idiots who wind me up, and mainly for spoilers - not so much plot-spoilers, but just general scuttlebutt - I find it's very hard NOT to go into a film with preconceptions if I've been reading about it for the past year*. I just watch the stuff when it comes out and enjoy it or not.

* when Dredd came out, as you can imagine there was a long busy thread on here beforehand - I made a conscious decision to avoid it for the alst 6 months so I'd go into the movie 'fresh' - regretted that as the regulars who'd been contributing got their names included in block graffiti and billboards in the finished movie!

My fault entirely......I should not have made the assumption that everyone would know about the problems that have gone on during the production of the Han Solo film!

Ron Howard is a solid director......so I'm confident he will have put together something cohesive. It would be easy to see how this film may come out disjointed. My fingers are crossed though.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 02 February, 2018, 11:00:50 AM
* when Dredd came out, as you can imagine there was a long busy thread on here beforehand - I made a conscious decision to avoid it for the alst 6 months so I'd go into the movie 'fresh' - regretted that as the regulars who'd been contributing got their names included in block graffiti and billboards in the finished movie!
Me too. I just have to imagine The Legendary Shark's Shuggy Shack is around the corner from the slo-mo den, next door to Dandontdare's Disco Dino Diner.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 02 February, 2018, 11:26:53 AM
Never mind, I was a contributor to that thread but didn't get my name in there.

But...... my username at the time was just my actual name, which wasn't exactly exciting!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 02 February, 2018, 11:47:40 AM
Let me guess; Mark Krysler...?

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 02 February, 2018, 11:51:21 AM
Let me guess; Mark Krysler...?

No, my username back then was "PeachTrees".....still annoys me that I didn't get in there.....
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 02 February, 2018, 02:37:27 PM
I have never been less enthused about the prospect of a new SW film than I am about Solo, despite the fact that I have rarely been as excited about SW in general, and would pay a significant sum to watch Episode IX right now.  It's not that I've any strong opinions about the casting or production - beyond thinking Disney very seldom make a bad movie, and Ron Howard can be relied upon to deliver a solid flick - but the whole idea of a Han Solo prequel still just leaves me cold, and nothing the PR machine (sole employee: Ron Howard) has put out to date has done anything to warm me up. 

But I am both easily pleased, and always open to being pleasantly surprised, so here's hoping.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Pyroxian 02 February, 2018, 02:40:13 PM
I liked the casting of Lando Calrissian. I'd much prefer this was a Calrissian prequel movie TBH, as there's a lot less of his background we know about, so it could make for a more interesting story.

I'm worried that Solo will just be an exercise in box-ticking - Rescues Chewie (tick), Wins the Millenium Falcon (tick), Does the Kessel Run (tick)...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 02 February, 2018, 02:50:33 PM
I liked the casting of Lando Calrissian. I'd much prefer this was a Calrissian prequel movie TBH, as there's a lot less of his background we know about, so it could make for a more interesting story.
 

Damnit, you're right, that would have far better - you could have introduced Young Han Solo that way as a minor player in Lando's story, and seen was there actually an appetite for more.  I can really see myself getting excited about that, and even better if it had a framing device of Billy Dee Williams telling a story over a game of sabacc in the Sequel era. Discounting his various EU outings, there's actually more juicy hints about Lando's past in the movies than there is about Han's - battle of Tanaab, for example.  His role in Rebels, where he's just getting into mining, offers a nice platform too.

And just think of the SJW-accusations fired at that one!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JamesC 02 February, 2018, 02:51:07 PM
I'm hoping he gets off with Jabba's bird - which is the real reason Jabba has a vendetta against him.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 02 February, 2018, 02:55:53 PM
I'm hoping he gets off with Jabba's bird - which is the real reason Jabba has a vendetta against him.

Gardulla...?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JamesC 02 February, 2018, 03:01:56 PM
I'm hoping he gets off with Jabba's bird - which is the real reason Jabba has a vendetta against him.

Gardulla...?

Ha ha, I didn't actually realise there was such a character but I've Googled her and she's pretty hot. I think Han would be into it.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 02 February, 2018, 03:34:09 PM
It's a Ron Howard/Lawrence Kasdan joint.  I think I'll give it a chance.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Goaty 02 February, 2018, 03:39:21 PM
And they got Woody Harrelson!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 02 February, 2018, 04:06:16 PM
I have never been less enthused about the prospect of a new SW film than I am about Solo, despite the fact that I have rarely been as excited about SW in general, and would pay a significant sum to watch Episode IX right now.  It's not that I've any strong opinions about the casting or production - beyond thinking Disney very seldom make a bad movie, and Ron Howard can be relied upon to deliver a solid flick - but the whole idea of a Han Solo prequel still just leaves me cold, and nothing the PR machine (sole employee: Ron Howard) has put out to date has done anything to warm me up. 

But I am both easily pleased, and always open to being pleasantly surprised, so here's hoping.

Must admit I wasn't as enthused for it previously as I normally would be with a Star wars movie as I struggle to consider anyone other than Harrison as Han Solo....but I need a serious Star Wars pick me up after the last film, and as this is a prequel with the Empire Strikes Back writer......it might be just what I need right now.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tiplodocus 02 February, 2018, 05:02:38 PM
 Back when I was sixteen and had finished reading Brian Daley's Han Solo books I'd have been all over a Solo movie. Now, less so. 

But the cast looks great, Ron does good solid stuff, Kasdan can be brilliant and there may be elements of Lord and Miller lurking in there. Add the impeccable Star Wars production values and you know what? I've nearly done a Peter Wolf and contradicted myself in the same post.

It's going to be great!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 02 February, 2018, 05:31:09 PM
I'm worried that Solo will just be an exercise in box-ticking - Rescues Chewie (tick), Wins the Millenium Falcon (tick), Does the Kessel Run (tick)...

That is exactly what the film will be, no question, which is why I have zero interest in seeing it.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 02 February, 2018, 07:16:54 PM
I agree that there are other characters we know little about that would be more intriguing to explore. I'll be seeing it of course, but I have no idea what to expect! Is there no Xmas Star Wars movie this year then? It had been becoming a bit of a tradition for me and my friends!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 02 February, 2018, 10:24:54 PM
I liked the casting of Lando Calrissian. I'd much prefer this was a Calrissian prequel movie TBH, as there's a lot less of his background we know about, so it could make for a more interesting story.
 

Damnit, you're right, that would have far better - you could have introduced Young Han Solo that way as a minor player in Lando's story, and seen was there actually an appetite for more.  I can really see myself getting excited about that, and even better if it had a framing device of Billy Dee Williams telling a story over a game of sabacc in the Sequel era. Discounting his various EU outings, there's actually more juicy hints about Lando's past in the movies than there is about Han's - battle of Tanaab, for example.  His role in Rebels, where he's just getting into mining, offers a nice platform too.

And just think of the SJW-accusations fired at that one!


Hopefully the Solo film will lead in to a Lando film in a few years.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Colin YNWA 03 February, 2018, 07:47:17 AM
I'm worried that Solo will just be an exercise in box-ticking - Rescues Chewie (tick), Wins the Millenium Falcon (tick), Does the Kessel Run (tick)...

That is exactly what the film will be, no question, which is why I have zero interest in seeing it.

Yep this is my concern a Han Solo movie could be so cool and explore so much about his smuggler past, but from what you hear this will be a box ticking piece of fan service.

I know he did the Kessel Run, we know he rescues Chewie, we know he wins the Falcon in a card game with Lando. Tell me something I don't know about him, open him up don't close him off.

Christ if it ends with him getting a contract with Jabba!

Mind fairs fair lets wait and see...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 03 February, 2018, 09:24:57 AM
Mind fairs fair lets wait and see...

Yep. In some ways it's good that even re-shoots were finished before the TLJ backlash started - if we're fearing a conservative box-ticking exercise, how much worse it would be if Disney had been actively discouraged  from including any new characters, women, non-whites, things we hadn't known existed before, unexpected character developments or even different spaceships*.



*(My current favourite TLJ criticism is 'where were the Y-wings?' - apparently they would have been far superior anti-capital-ship bombers than the Star Fortresses, which in my mind just begs the question 'well where were they in TESB, in the exact same scenario?')
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 03 February, 2018, 02:15:04 PM
I like this idea that the new Star Wars movies haven't been fan-pleasing exercises so far.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Colin YNWA 03 February, 2018, 02:32:51 PM
I like this idea that the new Star Wars movies haven't been fan-pleasing exercises so far.

Who said that?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 03 February, 2018, 02:37:04 PM
I like this idea that the new Star Wars movies haven't been fan-pleasing exercises so far.

I would think that the lack of fan pleasing is entirely accidental.....Disney want to make money after all.

I suspect that the larger than usual "fan" backlash to TLJ will not likely be making the Disney execs rub their hands together with glee.

Disneys  only gameplan would surely be to keep as many people as happy as possible, sell as much merchandise as possible and get as many people as they can into the theme parks. As the majority of people that they have irritated are precisely the people who buy all that stuff, doubt they would want to deliberately upset them.

What actual proportion of the audience that is remains to be seen......blu ray and toy sales may give some indication, opening figures for episode 9 too.

Will be very interesting to see if any impact is felt at all.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 03 February, 2018, 02:39:23 PM
I like this idea that the new Star Wars movies haven't been fan-pleasing exercises so far.

Who said that?

If you visit any of the star wars related forums, or star wars hot toys forums etc, there is a seemingly significant proportion of the "fan" community (the hardcore) that aren't happy at all Colin.

I use the word seemingly 😊

The apparent displeasure of the hardcore will not really have been felt at the box office for TLJ because they were all there at the first screenings.....booked and paid for months in advance.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 03 February, 2018, 03:12:07 PM
Simon ain't wrong.  I have no way of judging how representative the more vituperative haterz are of fans in general,  or whether they are just one more tragically vocal chorus of manbabies sourced from the Internet's endless parade, but all the SW forums I ever peek at are now war zones. And not just the men.  The women and the children too.

Of course Disney makes fan-pleasing (i.e. profit-maximising at various timescales) movies,  the issue is how they judge what pleases fans. And if I was a Disney shareholder glancing over social media I might suspect that non-white non-male (and just in case) non-straight characters and any deviation from expectation are not high on the want-list.

And that would be shit for everyone.

As it is,  I suspect the familiar human garbage of Twitter's New Empire are just dominating the discussion,  and aside from the reasonable folks who just didn't like the direction taken,  I suspect most fans are still on board.  At least until Solo.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 03 February, 2018, 03:46:10 PM
And if I was a Disney shareholder glancing over social media I might suspect that non-white non-male (and just in case) non-straight characters and any deviation from expectation are not high on the want-list.

Hit and run whataboutery might be common, but by and large, Twitter reflects the taste of the user, hence those people who follow opposing political or critical opinions tend to be the first ones complaining about extremists on the other side of the fence and those who follow them fall in behind.
Shareholders will find their own opinions reflected back at them, or - most likely - they'll avoid SW fandom because organised fandom is increasingly seen as the enemy by corporate interests who naturally want to control the narratives surrounding their products.
It's no coincidence that TLJ enthusiasts (and Star Trek Discovery enthusiasts before them, and Ghostbusters enthusiasts before them) are pushing a narrative that sees them as noble progressives standing against a detestable hoard represented by low audience satisfaction scores.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 03 February, 2018, 04:27:10 PM
It's a very tricky thing to judge......but the core fanbase for Star wars must be one of the biggest fan communities in the world?

The main chunk of the offended will be the 40 to 50 year old males......the OT fanboys. That's my demographic (and yours too TB?). I wonder just how many there are......

I'm a 1/6 figure collector so also frequent the Hot Toys/Sideshow forums.
Now, it's mostly the hardcore that will pay £200- £300 for a star wars figure.......i suspect not your casual fan.

So, Hot Toys star wars customers will mostly be made up of this irritated group of people. A lot of those collectors on the forums have stated outright that they will now not be buying/preordering any of the Last Jedi figures produced......so Hot toys for one will acutely feel any backlash. What may not be a dent in Disneys profits could certainly prove to be a dent in Hot Toys.

I think in the short term, it'll be the high end merchandise for the film that suffers.......I'm really curious to see the blu ray sales, though I suspect they'll be consistent.

Disney has 18  months for the hardcore to calm down and make some peace with the TLJ......hopefully the Han Solo movie will be the thing that calms them down....then they may well all pre book their tickets for Episode 9 regardless of their hysterics.

I'll be there......as I want to see the conclusion to the Kylo/Rey story and, well, it's Star wars.  It would be like not going to one of my children's school plays! 😊
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 03 February, 2018, 04:42:28 PM
It's no coincidence that TLJ enthusiasts (and Star Trek Discovery enthusiasts before them, and Ghostbusters enthusiasts before them) are pushing a narrative that sees them as noble progressives standing against a detestable hoard represented by low audience satisfaction scores.

Bit of Worzel Gummidge there, no? I'm never going to apologise for aspiring (though usually failing) to progress, but this isn't about demonising notional people who don't like the film (like many here, apparently): there is a very real and very noisy cadre of the genuinely detestable weighing in. As with Brexit as with Trump (or at least anti-Clinton),  there are sane people who have different but understandable views, but then there is the living cultural detritus that attaches itself to that side of the argument and through the magic of generating monetisable eyeballs come to dominate the debate.

Calling racist sexist narrow-minded shit-stirring attention-hungry scum what they are isn't the same as defining yourself as a noble paladin of the one true and loving ideology, defending the gates of fandom from the barbarian horde.

Incidentally,  I don't like TLJ,  Ghostbusters 2016 or Discovery because they are 'progressive': I liked them all because I enjoyed them.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 03 February, 2018, 06:36:11 PM
Actually, I fudged that comment above: I meant to say that TLJ enthusiasts (and STD/Ghostbusters fans) were at the forefront of a narrative pushed by corporate marketing and astroturfers who cynically magnify appalling opinions from utter bellends, not that the enthusiasts were creating that narrative themselves for the purposes of - urgh... I'm really going to say it - virtue signalling, which is how my comment reads.  I apologise if it read like a dig.

You don't have to justify liking something to me, TB, though now you've brought it up, I'm thinking another one of my 5000 word essays on why you're all wrong about Batman & Robin and/or Star Trek 5 is long overdue.
There have always been detestable scum in the fanbases - just ask Tharg his opinions on the forum - it's just that now the detestable scum are presented as the default setting of fandom rather than the tiny minority that feels compelled to voice their entitled man-baby opinions as loudly and obnoxiously as possible.  I'm not arguing that these types don't deserve scorn and ridicule, I'm just worried that the end result will be a crackdown on dissenting opinion rather than a rise in better-articulated arguments based entirely on objective assessment.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 04 February, 2018, 09:08:26 AM
Fair do's,  Prof.  I've certainly seen corporate interests adopt this kind of defensive narrative,  but not,  I think, any more than creatives and fans have always done in the spirit of the crowd praising the Supreme Leader's New Clothes. And when presented with a mob of known fuckwits pushing to the front of the crowd,  it's tempting to point them out as the source of dissent.

Have we had this analysis (http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/12/20/the-curious-case-of-the-last-jedi-and-its-rotten-tomatoes-audience-score) on here yet?  It's over a month old,  so I don't know how it's conclusions have aged,  and by the author's admission its methodology was very constrained,  but it's certainly interesting reading.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 04 February, 2018, 09:20:18 AM
"..its conclusions...".  I swear I must have run over auto-correct's dog,  it hates me that much.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: IndigoPrime 04 February, 2018, 01:42:44 PM
Ghostbusters 2016
Still annoyed about that one – because I wanted to see what happened next.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Leigh S 04 February, 2018, 06:35:08 PM
I have no opinion onf the Star Wars film (not seen it), but this does seem to be a problem with the internet in general perhaps, or at least exacerbated by it, from Ghostbusters to the Labour Anti-semitic rows, it is very easy to take a worse case example and conflate that with all criticism - I am reminded of Russle T Davies very successful "ming mong" defence of any criticism of his Who tenure
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 04 February, 2018, 07:03:43 PM
...it is very easy to take a worse case example and conflate that with all criticism...

True, but if only that 'worse case' was ever a lone example!  I was very pleasantly surprised by Nu-Ghostbusters, it was far from perfect, but in no way deserved the dogpile of hate it appeared to receive.  It really doesn't take much to see the films (and other media) selected for this treatment as having common elements, specifically being perceived as trespassing on the piss-stained white-male-victim territory of the GamerGate fucks and their equally pathetic successors.  Valid criticisms may well get lost, and indeed conflated with this regressive prickery, in any attempts to counter this flow of shite, but let's be honest if childish here: they started it.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Leigh S 04 February, 2018, 07:18:32 PM
...it is very easy to take a worse case example and conflate that with all criticism...

True, but if only that 'worse case' was ever a lone example!  I was very pleasantly surprised by Nu-Ghostbusters, it was far from perfect, but in no way deserved the dogpile of hate it appeared to receive.  It really doesn't take much to see the films (and other media) selected for this treatment as having common elements, specifically being perceived as trespassing on the piss-stained white-male-victim territory of the GamerGate fucks and their equally pathetic successors.  Valid criticisms may well get lost, and indeed conflated with this regressive prickery, in any attempts to counter this flow of shite, but let's be honest if childish here: they started it.

Yeah, there's a huge swathe of invalid criticism that is motivated by the critics own insecurities and crazies.  From a GB point of view, I havent seen the new one or the original all the way through, but I do recall it having some issues with its portrayal of women in those opening scenes, so making an all female version was bound to rattle some unpleasant cages. 

Waiter: "was your meal to your satisfaction?"
Diner 1: "well it was a little slow and a bit undercook-"
Diner 2: "You bastards! You just reheated a ready meal - IT'S A READY MEAL! I SAW THE PACKETS!"

The waiter can walk away with a clear conscience that there's some crazy folk out there, but that meal might well have needed another 5 minutes... But it is tempting and actually a smart move to write off the whole shebang of disgruntleds as a singular basket of deplorable "ming mongs".

And it is great for silencing valid criticism, becuase I dont want to put myself in that basket with the kind of peolpe who happily use phrases sucha s "snowflake", "SJW", "Virtue Signalling" etc
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 25 June, 2018, 10:24:00 PM
Hope those #Remake producers are listening to the fans and not the SJW/MARXIST/WOKE/CUCK/DICK-KNOCKERS. Tru-Fans have it sorted.

Here's How Disney Can Fix Episode IX! - Saving Star Wars (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVy_mlKpx7o)

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 25 June, 2018, 10:44:18 PM
Yeah, I saw that one.  It's spectacular in the degree to which it honours Luke's teachings:  "Amazing. Every word you just said was wrong".

I so want to know where this sort of thing comes from:  "Let him show how badass he really is: bring back Luke Mother-effing Skywalker".  What movie was that guy in?  Hell, what game, comic or book was he in?  Nothing EU Luke did showed as much power, mastery and cunning as the trick he pulls at the end of TLJ, or for my money, as much understanding of how to square the circle of being an order of warrior monks, and how to use the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack. 

I also love how he exhorts JJ to include spectacular lightsabre battles: now that the technology exists to do it. I...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 25 June, 2018, 10:51:13 PM



I also love how he exhorts JJ to include spectacular lightsabre battles: now that the technology exists to do it. I...

For reals this time.

Not just Luke that needs to be a badass, everyone does, apparently.

It's the only way to save Star Wars: "Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope. We need Da Force. We need Da Badass back."
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Frank 25 June, 2018, 10:54:26 PM
Hope those #Remake producers are listening to the fans and not the SJW/MARXIST/WOKE/CUCK/DICK-KNOCKERS. Tru-Fans have it sorted.

Here's How Disney Can Fix Episode IX! - Saving Star Wars (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVy_mlKpx7o)

Got as far as SPLIT EP.IX INTO 2 MOVIES*, then realised - just by clicking on this one fucking video - my Youtube recommendations are going to be full of witless HOW DISNEY KILLED STAR WARS rants for months.

This is Jordan Peterson all over again.


* Great idea! What the world needs is more Star Wars.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 25 June, 2018, 10:57:22 PM
This is Jordan Peterson all over again.

Well he does sound uncannily like Yoda; Yoda on the verge of a nervous breakdown.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Link Prime 26 June, 2018, 09:55:45 AM
Some of the shite you lot make me Google...the world has gone absolutely bonkers.

Anyway, is there anyone out there on the WWW that genuinely believes a remake would even be entertained as an idea?
My irony radar is in a shambles after years of reading posts from Prof Bear.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 26 June, 2018, 11:08:22 AM
My irony radar is in a shambles after years of reading posts from Prof Bear.

Ditto.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 26 June, 2018, 12:34:45 PM
It's not my fault that Batman & Robin is an objectively good film.

Anyway, is there anyone out there on the WWW that genuinely believes a remake would even be entertained as an idea?

Yes, just not right now, or in the immediate future.

See, I still suspect that at some point, Disney will remake the Prequels.  It's the obvious endgame of years of "the Prequels were badly made" astroturfing and Disney's penchant for wringing every last dime out of previously successful films (tangentially, before they bought FOX, it might even have been a away around not having full control of the movies made prior to TFA).
Once you accept that remake as a possibility, why wouldn't they keep going and eventually remake the rest?  Seems like the best way to capitalise on a property when spin-off films are a crapshoot, though obviously you'd be talking years down the line here - decades, even - and a completely new cast (although if Hamill is still knocking about, there's zero chance of him not doing a voice cameo).
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 26 June, 2018, 01:30:59 PM
See, I still suspect that at some point, Disney will remake the Prequels.

I believe that too but like I've suggested before, since the announcement of Rogue One and more Prequel spin-offs, they've more or less been doing that anyway and giving the fans the service they've always wanted to see – Vader hacking his way through the galaxy etc. and even Lucas himself to some extent began remaking the Prequels by revisiting and redoing Prequel scenes and themes in The Clone Wars but with better writers.

The comics have been doing alternative versions of storylines for years (and the whole EU has always been an alternate Star Wars with its multiple levels of canon that George Lucas chose to ignore when he felt like it) so if anything like that ever becomes feasible on a larger scale, they'll probably do it. I don't personally have anything against that type of thing some way down the pipe.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 26 June, 2018, 01:53:16 PM
Anyway, is there anyone out there on the WWW that genuinely believes a remake would even be entertained as an idea?

Not if they have a clue.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 26 June, 2018, 01:55:56 PM
It's not my fault that Batman & Robin is an objectively good film.

>noted for gravestone inscription<

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 26 June, 2018, 02:46:53 PM
I was vindicated the moment nerds started jizzing their knickers over Brave and the Bold episodes.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: sheridan 04 July, 2018, 08:19:11 AM
See, I still suspect that at some point, Disney will remake the Prequels.  It's the obvious endgame of years of "the Prequels were badly made" astroturfing and Disney's penchant for wringing every last dime out of previously successful films (tangentially, before they bought FOX, it might even have been a away around not having full control of the movies made prior to TFA).


Having looked up what 'astroturfing' means (in this context: "the deceptive practice of presenting an orchestrated marketing or public relations campaign in the guise of unsolicited comments from members of the public.") and having been around when the prequels were released, there were always unsolicited comments from the general public that they were not well-made at the time that they were coming out...
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 04 July, 2018, 10:11:54 AM
I wasn't actually suggesting the idea that "the Prequels were bad films" was new, I was pointing out that a lot of professional opinion writers all seemed to come up with the same idea in the same recent space of time that the PT was actually artistically significant and beloved by many despite its flaws, a notion that was marginal - to say the least - before Disney owned the property, but is now the critical consensus.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: I, Cosh 05 July, 2018, 08:52:04 AM
I guess it's also possible that the five year olds who loved the prequels are more likely to post on the internet (or get paid to write opinion pieces) in 2018 than they were in 1997.

I watched the start of Last Jedi for the second time on a plane at the weekend but turned it off when Finn woke up. Slightly disappointed that it's not showing at any of the outdoor summer cinema events this year, but Do the Right Thing is a more than adequate substitute.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: wedgeski 05 July, 2018, 09:36:44 AM
I wasn't actually suggesting the idea that "the Prequels were bad films" was new, I was pointing out that a lot of professional opinion writers all seemed to come up with the same idea in the same recent space of time that the PT was actually artistically significant and beloved by many despite its flaws, a notion that was marginal - to say the least - before Disney owned the property, but is now the critical consensus.
I certainly enjoyed them at the time, despite their obvious flaws, enough to buy the DVD's on day 1 even. And there is a helluva lot to like: they were a CGI-soaked spectacle of sci-fantasy that hadn't really been seen before.

I forgave TPM all its flaws *just* because of the jaw-dropping three-way saber fight at the end. Clones had a last act of epic Jedi warfare. Revenge... well, it had, erm, that quite good Order 66 bit... and the fight between Yoda and Sidious was kinda cool... but then Franken-Vader actually made me snort with laughter in the theatre...so, on the whole, not sure why I was so eager to add that one to my collection (let's say "completeness").

Nowadays, I can *maybe* watch TPM, but probably won't ever watch the other two again. The spectacle has been far surpassed, and what's left is basically awful.

All of which is why I loved TFA so much. Plenty of typically Abrams-ish plot failings, but it had everything Star Wars, and was written and directed by people who hadn't inexplicably forgotten their craft.

TLJ, not so much. Plenty to like, but a bizarre throwing-out of the all the questions asked by TFA, and an inexplicable, half-ass reset of the story. Episode 8 exited without addressing the mysteries of Snoke, Rey's heritage (I don't buy Kylo's jab), why Luke's light-saber ended up where it did, or how the First Order came into being. How did they fail so massively?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Dandontdare 05 July, 2018, 12:47:29 PM
the mysteries of Snoke, Rey's heritage (I don't buy Kylo's jab)

I don't see any mystery in Snoke - Palaptine and Vader are dead so another Sith lord steps up to take power. I'm sure there's more that could be told about his background, but I didn't feel it was necessary for the purposes of the plot.

Rey's "ordinary" background is central to the major theme of the movie - anyone can use the force, you don't have to be descended from a master or to be anyone special.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tiplodocus 05 July, 2018, 12:53:46 PM
Similarly I was never thinking there was any mystery to Snoke. He's the chief bad guy, leader of the First Order.

By the time the original trilogy ended, if you go only what is in the films, we knew Absolutely fuck all about the back stories of the Emperor, Boba Fett, Yoda, or Chewbacca.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: wedgeski 05 July, 2018, 01:28:04 PM
the mysteries of Snoke, Rey's heritage (I don't buy Kylo's jab)

I don't see any mystery in Snoke - Palaptine and Vader are dead so another Sith lord steps up to take power. I'm sure there's more that could be told about his background, but I didn't feel it was necessary for the purposes of the plot.
I could have done with more.

Rey's "ordinary" background is central to the major theme of the movie - anyone can use the force, you don't have to be descended from a master or to be anyone special.
*No-one* had a random awakening in all the time between RotJ and TFA?!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JamesC 05 July, 2018, 01:37:02 PM
the mysteries of Snoke, Rey's heritage (I don't buy Kylo's jab)

I don't see any mystery in Snoke - Palaptine and Vader are dead so another Sith lord steps up to take power. I'm sure there's more that could be told about his background, but I didn't feel it was necessary for the purposes of the plot.
I could have done with more.

Rey's "ordinary" background is central to the major theme of the movie - anyone can use the force, you don't have to be descended from a master or to be anyone special.
*No-one* had a random awakening in all the time between RotJ and TFA?!

Luke had an academy with at least a dozen force sensitive students. Do we know anything about their backgrounds (certainly not from the films)? They could easily have been ordinary people who Luke sensed were sensitives or something (other than Ben/Kylo of course).
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 05 July, 2018, 02:12:38 PM
the mysteries of Snoke, Rey's heritage (I don't buy Kylo's jab)

I don't see any mystery in Snoke - Palaptine and Vader are dead so another Sith lord steps up to take power. I'm sure there's more that could be told about his background, but I didn't feel it was necessary for the purposes of the plot.
I could have done with more.

Snoke's fate seemed obvious since in The Force Awakens Ben Solo's stated life goal to his grandfather's melted head was to "finish what you started"; not surprising he did exactly that: killed his master and became Ruler of the Galaxy. Using Rey as a distraction for Snoke is a replay of Vader's plan to use Luke as a means to strike the Emperor down.

Besides, Snoke is an eejit: he built another Death Star after 2 had all ready been blown-up.

Rey's background in The Force Awakens was vague rather than mysterious and the only decent answer to that ambiguity is that she can be anyone/no-one which is more or less the awakening theme in the film and the message to the galaxy: anyone can be a Jedi and resist. Episode IX should carry through with that.


Rey's "ordinary" background is central to the major theme of the movie - anyone can use the force, you don't have to be descended from a master or to be anyone special.
*No-one* had a random awakening in all the time between RotJ and TFA?!

If we take Prequel logic, it seems no one else during the original trilogy - other than the Skywalkers - had scored enough midi-chlorians for the force to speak fluently enough through them.

If we go by the Originals, there are apparently no known force-users because it's a suppressed, forgotten, and forbidden knowledge until after Return of the Jedi.

In the Sequels, as has been pointed out, Luke found a few to teach.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Dandontdare 05 July, 2018, 02:16:34 PM
and there was also the lad with the broom on the casino planet - there may have been many "awakenings" that were never developed because people didn't immediately think "ooh, I'm a jedi, best enrol in luke's academy"
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 05 July, 2018, 05:48:21 PM
If we take Prequel logic, it seems no one else during the original trilogy - other than the Skywalkers - had scored enough midi-chlorians for the force to speak fluently enough through them.

If we go by the Originals, there are apparently no known force-users because it's a suppressed, forgotten, and forbidden knowledge until after Return of the Jedi.

And if we go by the spin-off media (which has been rendered canon by several of the movies), there have been plenty of awakenings over the years, they just didn't feature in the Skywalker saga.

We saw the number of young Force users from across the galaxy that there actually were in RotS - there was only a handful, so clearly they're pretty rare even in a galaxy of trillions of people, and post-RotS there are only four people who could sense them, none of whom got out very much: two sat with their thumbs up their holes for 20 years, one lived in seclusion because of his "injuries", and the other was floating in a vat of milk on top of a volcano castle for some reason.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 06 July, 2018, 02:26:01 AM
I definitely didn't like the way Snoke was handled. I was under the impression that by the original Star Wars, we're down to two Jedi and two Sith. Jedi, Sith and the Force itself are passing into myth. They're very rare, and you need training to 'git gud'. So who trained Snoke, why is he so powerful (especially if no-one did train him!)? He seems old, has he been around all this time, was he perhaps even pulling Palpatine's strings?? Was he in a position close to the old Imperial leadership to fill that power vacuum or did he launch a plan to hijack it by force?


Magicking up all-powerful Sith, not developing or explaining them at all and then chopping them down as unceremoniously as they were introduced is really unsatisfying to me and makes them seem a bit ten-a-penny. They could still perhaps explain some of this in the next one though of course, perhaps tie Snoke into some deeper reveal about the world, I'd like that!


: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JamesC 06 July, 2018, 06:42:31 AM
I thought the Snoke thing was a good rug pull. It was more interesting than any backstory about him was likely to be.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 06 July, 2018, 10:16:47 AM
The more gaps there are, the more opportunities for spin-offs to fill them.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: shaolin_monkey 06 July, 2018, 03:07:13 PM
A Star Wars story:  The Snoke Years! Working title - How I Learned to Love Wearing a Dressing Gown Everywhere.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Bolt-01 06 July, 2018, 03:12:18 PM
Snoke wears a dressing gown at all times, appears to live in a fabulously opulent manner, looks way too old and 'interesting' to have had a quiet life and is very interested in the arrival of a young lady with extraordinary skills...

Isn't that Hef?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 06 July, 2018, 05:52:27 PM


From Stiff to Sith, the Rise of the Clerk of Darkness: A Star Wars Asset Story.

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...

The Jedi are no more and the Emperor tightens his EVIL GRIP around more and more regions of the galaxy.

Enforcing order and obedience throughout the Empire, DARTH VADER has the VILE Emperor's sanction to break any and all dissent or resistance.

But tyranny is expensive and the COST must be COUNTED. Thus, as deadly ion bombs reign down on Bawlie Gollux, the SINISTER Sith Lord's new personal accountant, Young Master Snoke, has a question about Section 347b of the Personal Expenses Code Regulations...

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 06 July, 2018, 09:52:20 PM
This story premise has been invalidated by the completely canon three-part Clone Wars story about banking regulation.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 07 July, 2018, 02:53:23 AM
And if we go by the spin-off media (which has been rendered canon by several of the movies)

That would be an ecumenical matter.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Colin YNWA 07 July, 2018, 08:25:54 AM
Snoke wears a dressing gown at all times, appears to live in a fabulously opulent manner, looks way too old and 'interesting' to have had a quiet life and is very interested in the arrival of a young lady with extraordinary skills...

Isn't that Hef?

Sweet Jesus there a movie we all deserve. The Playboy Menace.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: auxlen 08 July, 2018, 03:25:39 PM
That would be an ecumenical matter.

I tink yerr right
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: auxlen 08 July, 2018, 03:29:41 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuW8TaAlBfg
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 18 July, 2018, 06:30:25 PM
One thing we can all hopefully agree on (for once) - this Last Jedi poster is pretty freakin' sweet!

https://io9.gizmodo.com/lukes-magical-last-jedi-trick-gets-an-equally-magical-p-1827672086 (https://io9.gizmodo.com/lukes-magical-last-jedi-trick-gets-an-equally-magical-p-1827672086)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 19 July, 2018, 03:38:10 PM
.....but it makes me think about that incredibly lacklustre finale.

 :lol:
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 19 July, 2018, 03:56:20 PM
I liked that the finale simultaneously admitted that the audience had come to see Luke Skywalker do laser sword stuff, but also explicitly made the text of the film story that expecting Luke Skywalker to do laser sword stuff was completely misunderstanding the deeper nuance of that children's film with living teddy bears in it that came out forty years ago.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 19 July, 2018, 04:30:05 PM
...that children's film with Man-eating Stone-Age Viet-Cong living teddy bears ...

FTFY

Here's a question: after Chewie and that Giant Space Squid thing in Solo, is it the case that everything Han meets tries to eat him except the dianoga in the Trash Compactor?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 19 July, 2018, 09:48:28 PM
But let's face it, all this live-action flim-flam and poo-doo is as porg-droppings compared to tonight's happy, happy Star Wars news:  It's Back! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM399BkTpts). 

Much dancing and cheering in my house.

Never doubted they'd get round to animating the existing voicework eventually, but imagined it was years off yet.  And here's hoping they give the already released 'animatic' episodes the same treatment too.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 19 July, 2018, 10:02:57 PM
About time. No doubt this announcement is part of an attempt to rehabilitate Lucasfilm's image in fandom. The announcement of Benioff and Weiss's Old Republic films must be soon.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 19 July, 2018, 10:18:51 PM
Considering how soon it launches, odd that Resistance isn't also getting any push.  Still, I'm sure it's at least as good as (checks notes) Forces Of Destiny.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 19 July, 2018, 10:25:30 PM
...that children's film with Man-eating Stone-Age Viet-Cong living teddy bears ...

FTFY

Here's a question: after Chewie and that Giant Space Squid thing in Solo, is it the case that everything Han meets tries to eat him except the dianoga in the Trash Compactor?

Show Leia some respect, dammit.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 19 July, 2018, 10:54:23 PM
Forces Of Destiny.

This is a good point.  I watch any old shite with spaceships'n'splosions in (although in comparison to m'learned Bear I am a cineaste of the most exquisitely refined sensibility), but I have never clapped eyes on Forces of Destiny, nor feel the lack (although I do like the look of the dolls - the Sabine one looks very cool). Similarly, despite being a brainwashed Disney sequel shil, the prospect of Resistance leaves me unmoved - and no-one else in my house has evinced any interest.  And I've bought and read the Poe Dameron comic and the Rose/Paige prequel novel!  What does this all mean?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 20 July, 2018, 12:38:36 AM
Is Christopher Nolan the next President of Lucasfilm?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 20 July, 2018, 12:05:17 PM
"The clone wars" cartoon is easily the best star wars outside of the original trilogy, so this is great news. I guess this will be the last ever chunk of Lucas-involved Star wars too.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Pyroxian 20 July, 2018, 12:19:25 PM
"The clone wars" cartoon is easily the best star wars outside of the original trilogy, so this is great news. I guess this will be the last ever chunk of Lucas-involved Star wars too.

I preferred Rebels, but that did build on a lot of stuff set up by Clone Wars.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 21 July, 2018, 12:03:45 AM
"The clone wars" cartoon is easily the best star wars outside of the original trilogy, so this is great news. I guess this will be the last ever chunk of Lucas-involved Star wars too.

I preferred Rebels, but that did build on a lot of stuff set up by Clone Wars.

I really don't like rebels, its dull, turgid and just plain boring in comparison to what clone wars offered.....and the production quality is way worse. It also plays to a much younger audience, its actively aimed at children where I don't feel clone wars ever was. Despite the promise of McDairmid emperor I still can't bring myself to get through the last season that I've had sitting there for months.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: radiator 21 July, 2018, 12:10:07 AM
its actively aimed at children where I don't feel clone wars ever was

Is this the same show that had a character called 'Stinky the Hutt'?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Jim_Campbell 21 July, 2018, 12:16:59 AM
Is this the same show that had a character called 'Stinky the Hutt'?

Yeah, but they had that half-season devoted to the thrilling 'banking regulations' story arc that was pretty damn grown up.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 21 July, 2018, 12:19:28 AM
It generally played to the family audience, some of it was bad, mostly it was great.

I'm not aiming to be pithy, sarcastic or argumentative, it was just a generally solid piece of entertainment. Rebels was more of a children aimed show with lower production values.

It had genuinely great episodes, and some really poor episodes.  Bit when it was good, it was good.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 21 July, 2018, 12:27:00 AM
its actively aimed at children where I don't feel clone wars ever was

Is this the same show that had a character called 'Stinky the Hutt'?

Tccch, his name was Rotta, which is far more mature. Only Sky Guy and Snips called him Stinky. Positively gritty, if you ask me.

But it's also the show where a fan-favourite character introduced in the second episode, the only survivor of a squad the show had followed since they were clone cadets, is condemned, gaslighted and then killed in cold blood just as he almost succeeds in warning the Jedi about Order 66. It could be pretty intense drama too.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 21 July, 2018, 12:48:09 AM
I really don't like rebels, its dull, turgid and just plain boring in comparison to what clone wars offered.....and the production quality is way worse. It also plays to a much younger audience, its actively aimed at children where I don't feel clone wars ever was.

Clone Wars mostly seemed aimed at an older audience than any of the films – barring maybe Rogue One. The films didn't have Gungans getting stabbed; Undercover Kenobi forking a prisoner's hand to the table (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faVstLFQJ6U&t=1m11s), or feature some of the horror vibe in later seasons with Maul's exorcism and slaughtering a village on screen. Rebels seemed to skew more towards the mostly general cert of the saga.

As for Rebels being boring, for me it has some of the best 'Star Wars' (Sabine and the Heroes of Mandalore) and one of the best endings.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 21 July, 2018, 01:16:49 AM
Rebels' ending was a massive cop-out, but at least it had one.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 21 July, 2018, 02:11:23 PM
As so terrifyingly often, I begin to suspect that the Prof's rumblings about Disney and the Prequels may have been close to the target. In addition to 'new' CW episodes, there are Padme books and comics coming... as the most poorly served of any SW character, I wonder what's afoot.

If it's just an attempt to regroup the fractured 20/30-something fanbase, it's unlikely to work, since i'm already seeing calls for Filoni (formerly arch-Satan SW-ruiner and enabler of SW's first Mary Sue, aka "that mouthy bratty bitch showing her belly like a pedo's whore" and Lucas' most infamous bootlicking cuck, now recast as Fedora-wearing fellow bro coming to kick Kennedy in the cootie-hole) to be installed as Supreme Leader of LFL.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 21 July, 2018, 03:35:03 PM
the prospect of Resistance leaves me unmoved - and no-one else in my house has evinced any interest.

For some reason, my main takeaway from the single short description of Resistance to come out of Disney so far is that it uses no gendered pronouns anywhere in the description of the lead character.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 21 July, 2018, 05:48:24 PM
i'm already seeing calls for Filoni to be installed as Supreme Leader of LFL.

If the scuttlebutt is at all to be believed, once the Fox deal is signed-off Disney'll address the matter of installing the new regime/creatives (down to 2 candidates and their people) while Abrams and Bad Robot handle Episode IX independently. Filoni is staying put but will have more creative control and Benioff & Weiss and Favreau are gearing up for next year.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 21 July, 2018, 07:38:02 PM
Between the Kennedy and Gunn situations you do have to wonder where it will all end when the vilest shits on the internet seem to influence billion-dollar decisions. Imagine a world where Shapiro and Cernovitch (a man who probably belongs on a D Wing somewhere) are kingmakers of pop culture.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Dandontdare 21 July, 2018, 08:28:40 PM
i'm already seeing calls for Filoni (formerly arch-Satan SW-ruiner and enabler of SW's first Mary Sue, aka "that mouthy bratty bitch showing her belly like a pedo's whore" and Lucas' most infamous bootlicking cuck, now recast as Fedora-wearing fellow bro coming to kick Kennedy in the cootie-hole) to be installed as Supreme Leader of LFL.

I occasionally wonder if my nerdishnes is still within socially acceptable levels, or whether I've fallen down the rabbit hole, but I didn't understand a single word of that, so I'm reassured.  ;)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 21 July, 2018, 08:42:24 PM
Glad to be of service! 
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 21 July, 2018, 08:50:52 PM
Once you acknowledge that billion dollar corporations know full well that they will be allowed to ply their trade under fascism, but not under socialism, their willingness to ignore lefties and embrace Nazis becomes a little clearer.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 21 July, 2018, 10:12:39 PM
Bob Iger gotta eat! And intends to run for office one day after his mate Don sets things up for him, as ‘good cop’.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tiplodocus 22 July, 2018, 12:36:23 AM
Glad to be of service!

Me too.

Seriously, can someone explain it simple terms. X said Y and Z didn't  like it so sued X and B.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Legendary Shark 22 July, 2018, 06:10:22 AM

Jeez, even the characters of the alphabet are arguing now?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: The Enigmatic Dr X 22 July, 2018, 09:18:40 AM
Similarly I was never thinking there was any mystery to Snoke. He's the chief bad guy, leader of the First Order.

By the time the original trilogy ended, if you go only what is in the films, we knew Absolutely fuck all about the back stories of the Emperor, Boba Fett, Yoda, or Chewbacca.

This misses the point for me, and highlights the sloppy writing here.

We don't need background. We need motivation and purpose. We knew the Emperor wanted to crush the rebellion and turn Luke. We know Boba Fett wanted to get Hans's bounty. We know Yoda was the last Jedi and reluctantly trained Luje. We know Chewie was loyal to Han.

How? As there were interactions to give this info over.

Note, too, that these characters affected the main characters. These minor characters were there for a reason, to develop plot and character development of the main cast.

Snoke? We're just to understand he's the bad guy. As you say, we know he's bad so why do we need to get any info?

Show, not tell, that's why. There is a development-critical relationship between Snoje and Ben Kenobi (I can't remember his bad guy name!). But it's off screen and done in a few sentences. That's okay for minor characters, but not good enough if you want pay off from Snoke 's demise.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 22 July, 2018, 09:36:57 AM
Between the Kennedy and Gunn situations you do have to wonder where it will all end when the vilest shits on the internet seem to influence billion-dollar decisions. Imagine a world where Shapiro and Cernovitch (a man who probably belongs on a D Wing somewhere) are kingmakers of pop culture.

Internet ranters aside, I think it's fair to say that most people would fear for their job if they lost as much money for the shareholders as Kathleen Kennedy has this last 12 months.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Colin YNWA 22 July, 2018, 10:55:27 AM
I'm certainly no expert on such matters but I saw this from Screen Rant

If Kennedy wants to leave on her own accord, that's her prerogative, but it would be surprising if she was shown the door after overseeing three movies that collectively earned more than $4 billion globally.

Though there are of course rumours that they are looking to get her out as well.

Disney as a whole shares seem to have stagnated over the last couple of years but that's across a global company that has so many more strands than just Star Wars. I think assigning that to one person who has made a shed load of money for the company is possibly a sympton of your anger at the Star Wars franchise at the moment?

That said what THE HELL AM I DOING defending Disney executives!.... when did that start to happen???
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 22 July, 2018, 11:20:17 AM
Internet ranters aside, I think it's fair to say that most people would fear for their job if they lost as much money for the shareholders as Kathleen Kennedy has this last 12 months.

Not helped by shareholders expecting regular yearly releases that need to earn almost billion+ while Disney throws more billions into a massive Star Wars theme park that has put the expenditure on the franchise into debt. This is a corporation exploiting a franchise.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 22 July, 2018, 01:21:53 PM
Kennedy lost them some dosh on Solo, a (good) movie that came out 6 months after the previous billion-dollar sequel on her watch, and 18 months after the billion-dollar spinoff before that. Far from a catalogue of failure!

A considerable proportion of online hatred directed against her is specifically focused on her gender, as it is on the new movies' characters. That alone is enough for me to raise an eyebrow over her supposed shortcomings.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 22 July, 2018, 01:27:14 PM
Kennedy has overall made a boatload of cash for Disney, flops are part and parcel of the movie biz and Solo will eventually make its money back and then some, but we're not talking about rational or good faith actors at this stage, we're talking about an incel campaign against women and non-whites and Disney is a brand-conscious entity that knows its way around negative PR.  The fear is that if Disney thinks it's in its interest to cut her loose to appease Nazis, it will.
LOL just realised Disney has form with Nazis, too.  Funny how things come back around.

Similarly I was never thinking there was any mystery to Snoke. He's the chief bad guy, leader of the First Order.

By the time the original trilogy ended, if you go only what is in the films, we knew Absolutely fuck all about the back stories of the Emperor, Boba Fett, Yoda, or Chewbacca.

This misses the point for me, and highlights the sloppy writing here.

Yeah, I don't understand why people seem to be struggling with the idea that someone might ask "where did Snoke come from?" in good faith, as it's a perfectly legitimate question.
The Emperor in the OT is a spurious example of why Snoke supposedly works because there wasn't any backstory to the Star Wars universe circa the OT beyond what characters dropped in dialogue here and there (some of which was open to interpretation, as it turned out), but circa episodes 7 and 8, there's four decades of backstory and replicating what was done in the OT - which Last Jedi did again and again and again - doesn't work because there just isn't the elbow room to jam in an ancient and incredibly powerful Sith lord that nobody has ever seen or heard of across 10 films and over a hundred episodes of confirmed-canon cartoons which feature - among other scenes - the Emperor specifically sniffing out powerful Sith to destroy, and Yoda visiting the Sith homeworld to discover that there definately isn't any other Sith but the ones we know of already.
You can argue that the movies shouldn't have to be beholden to some cartoon from 10 years ago, but they are, and this is by the makers' deliberate design.  The Sequels just don't exist in the vacuum that the OT did.

Anyway, if they'd said "yep, he's Plagius" that would have been the end of it: a Sith already mentioned in canon, who taught the Emperor how to shield himself from other Force users, and has a reason to stay out of sight between episodes 1-6.  Can't use him, though, because we've got to keep doing our tiresome rug-pulls.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 22 July, 2018, 01:47:59 PM
Anyway, if they'd said "yep, he's Plagius" that would have been the end of it: a Sith already mentioned in canon, who taught the Emperor how to shield himself from other Force users, and has a reason to stay out of sight between episodes 1-6. 

Or better yet, Ezra Bridger.

I'm in two minds about Snoke. Another shadowy Sith emperor in TFA always seemed a mistake to me, so the idea that he was an irrelevance who existed only as a stepping stone, and an excuse for a really nifty surprise, doesn't bother me too much. I also think there's time to fill in his back story yet.

But I do take the point that we are in a different position that we were in the OT, and there is a need to explain how we got from there to here for his character to be remotely satisfying.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 22 July, 2018, 01:50:00 PM
Kennedy lost them some dosh on Solo, a (good) movie that came out 6 months after the previous billion-dollar sequel on her watch, and 18 months after the billion-dollar spinoff before that. Far from a catalogue of failure!

A considerable proportion of online hatred directed against her is specifically focused on her gender, as it is on the new movies' characters. That alone is enough for me to raise an eyebrow over her supposed shortcomings.

True but you could also point out the number of directors that have been sacked/sidelined/replaced and the extra money spent on reshoots.

Maybe it was for the better, but it seems quite a high ratio of directors being replaced.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 22 July, 2018, 01:56:52 PM
Maybe it was for the better, but it seems quite a high ratio of directors being replaced.

This is very true. But also I suspect it's quite a complex set of factors and players there.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 22 July, 2018, 02:49:27 PM
Firing/replacing directors and arranging necessary reshoots to improve the film is literally her job.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 22 July, 2018, 03:02:09 PM
I'm not buying that it's all just Internet hatred directed at Kathleen Kennedy.  From my point of view she has shown an apathy towards star wars, produced inferior "product", dealt with the audience poorly, had some very turbulent productions, taken director replacement and re-shooting to impressive levels, and has seen the sales of Star wars merchandising fall. It's not just the films, star wars related income has fallen.

I won't miss her, I know some of you have enjoyed what Lucasfilm have done since Lucas departure, but on the whole for me it's been mostly disappointing or just plain awful.

More than happy for anyone else to take over, regardless of age, sexuality, gender, race or religion.....just as long as they are actually at least interested in Star wars.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 22 July, 2018, 03:08:34 PM
Firing/replacing directors and arranging necessary reshoots to improve the film is literally her job.

Does it not call into question your judgement about hiring them in the first place though?

It's not just Lord and Miller and Edwards, it's also Trevorrow and Trank.

To an outsider, that seems like quite a lot.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 22 July, 2018, 07:19:20 PM
Or it looks like a difficult and thankless job.

Understand, I'm no Kennedy Stan - quite the opposite, as I've been terribly disappointed in almost everything to come out of the Disney acquisition, and the shutting down of Lucasarts given its critical reputation, the turnover of videogames, and their importance in marketing synergy for cinematic universe franchises and expanded universe properties like SW in particular seems like a financially irresponsible decision at best - but there's a disparity between the response to Kennedy's gamekeeping a notoriously temperamental franchise and its dreadful fanbase and other film executives such as Spielberg's handling of the increasingly-terrible Jurassic Park franchise, Kevin Feige's handling of creatives at Marvel Studios, and even Harvey Weinstein's handling of all those actresses he raped.  In general, heterococks seem to be getting a lot more leeway than the lady type, especially given the scale of the job she was given in turning an 8 billion dollar investment profitable in less than 5 years.  It is not a small task and anyone would have trouble wrangling it all, much as Lucas himself did even before theme parks and a once-yearly movie slate had to factor into things.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 22 July, 2018, 07:36:44 PM
I have no real opinion either way, just pointing out how it might appear.

I'm increasingly bored of most things pop culture since it seems impossible to watch something without it being spoiled to death/come with increasing amounts of baggage.

5 years ago I would have been right down the cinema to watch Incredibles 2... now - I really can't be arsed.

Didn't mind the retread of TFA, didn't hate or love TLJ, never watched any of the TV stuff and didn't watch Solo.

Only recently caught up with the Marvel stuff (Infinity War aside), and didn't bother with WW or JL.

Seems half the time I'm watching something feels like out of obligation.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 22 July, 2018, 07:55:13 PM
I similarly share a lot of that apathy now......the Internet seems intent on killing the joy in most things. And yes, I do appreciate the irony that I too am a part of that by discussing this here.

As for Kennedy, nobody will ever convince me that giving a film so important to get right as "The Last Jedi" to Rian Johnson, seemingly leaving him with free reign to do whatever he liked, with a constant background nagging murmur from its main star, was  ever a good decision. It feels like someone who just couldn't care less about the quality of the output.

And I don't agree with the opinion that star wars fans are a toxic bunch, I don't think that could be further from the truth. There's just a bunch of unpleasant vocal extreme fans who are making a lot of noise....they are a part of every fan following, including this one.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 22 July, 2018, 09:12:42 PM
Star Wars fans are the absolute worst.

Signed, a Star Trek fan.
ps: don't ask me my opinions on Star Trek Discovery
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 22 July, 2018, 11:11:18 PM
I do feel that internet trolls often end up getting much, much more credit than they deserve for how much of the fandom (or any group, media-related or no) they represent, and then often the other side dig in and become even more extreme in their opposite opinion to try counter-act this perceived threat. It all polarises pretty darn fast and anyone can get sucked into it if they're not careful!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 22 July, 2018, 11:11:30 PM
And I don't agree with the opinion that star wars fans are a toxic bunch, I don't think that could be further from the truth. There's just a bunch of unpleasant vocal extreme fans who are making a lot of noise....they are a part of every fan following, including this one.

They're the most militant and vocal section, naturally, but many other fans who're just unhappy have found a common goal with them: Kill Kennedy. They don't care if there are Trumpettes leading the charge as long as they get rid of the woman and her cohorts whom they see as obstacles standing in the way of them getting the Star Wars they want – whatever that means amongst 3 generations of fans. I heard one particular middle-aged woman say that Star Wars should only be run by an 'alpha male'. How you parse the lot of them out I don't know.

The failure is Disney's expectation of a higher yield on all Star Wars revenue: if they can't pump out successful and well received yearly ads (films/TV shows like Marvel) to sell their upcoming SW theme park, then they will perceive a problem in the chain. They have concentrated on the fan backlash because they see it as influencing who turns up, and toy sales, rather than being a Star Wars centric phenomenon, have fallen globally for Hasbro, Mattel and Lego, so it probably means a restructuring with a concentration on games, streaming shows and streamlining the film releases.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 23 July, 2018, 07:30:51 AM
often the other side dig in and become even more extreme in their opposite opinion to try counter-act this perceived threat.

Thing is though, if you aren't in the group that constantly uses misogynistic and racist language, attacks actors and filmmakers online relentlessly, asserts their personal version of SW to be the only 'true' one and demands that people be fired, films be scrapped or remade to adhere to that, it can be quite hard to shrug and say "all fans together, eh".

Again, as so often these days, I just don't see the two positions as being equally valid, or equally squalid.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 23 July, 2018, 01:24:55 PM
I wasn't saying that all sides of any particular argument are equally valid, or that we should all just be friends. I just meant that the 'correct' side often loses balance and nuance too, and additionally I think the constant outrage and polarisation on the internet is changing us for the worse, indulging our tribal tendencies constantly and in an addictive way.

Personally I don't know if I've ever even heard of this Kennedy person before, but if she's been running Star Wars it might not be a bad thing if she's replaced, there's been some royal cock-ups in my opinion. I'm sure I'd be lumped in with sexists for saying that in some quarters! Thankfully I only use social media to annoy games companies :D
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 23 July, 2018, 02:12:07 PM
I wasn't saying that all sides of any particular argument are equally valid, or that we should all just be friends. I just meant that the 'correct' side often loses balance and nuance too, and additionally I think the constant outrage and polarisation on the internet is changing us for the worse, indulging our tribal tendencies constantly and in an addictive way.

Sure, didn't mean to suggest you did, just that I frequently find this argument goes along the '...from a certain point of view' line, whereas I tend to see a significant element of the 'SJW Bitch Kennedy Must Die!  Remake Last Jedi But Without Whores and Asians! Star Wars is about the MOST POWAHFUL MEN EVAH HITTING EACH OTHER WITH GLOWSTICKS!' crowd as being just another facet of the 'enemies of all that is good in the universe' gang, who I am heartily sick of accommodating with silence.   

Disllking current SW, or feeling it's got things wrong (it has), is fine. A quick glance at the TPM trailer I keep on my desktop reminds me that its been that way for 20 years.   I'd rather a whole raft of different choices had been made at the start, but I accept that corporate interests meant that if new films were going to happen it was only going to go the one way: one of the reasons I like TLJ, it felt like a welcome change in direction.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: GrudgeJohnDeed 23 July, 2018, 02:51:50 PM
Yeah those people are poison absolutely, no-one should feel they have to just grin and bear their shit. But we have to be mindful not to let that toxic minority cloud and polarise our opinions on the subjects they bring up.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 23 July, 2018, 03:23:05 PM
I'm not saying there aren't dicks out there, but it's worth remembering that corporations now run their own Youtube channels for trailers rather than letting the trailers out into the wild like they used to, and what they have done with this new level of control over the visibility of public reaction is to delete reasonably presented criticisms (IE: "this does not seem very original", "there are no funny jokes in this trailer" etc) and yet leave the misogynistic, racist, alt-right anti-feminist and entitled fanboy comments in place.
They've deliberately cultivated the narrative of fandom as an awful thing, my own theory being that they resisted the current models of media distribution for years, preferring instead to try and put the genie back in the bottle much as they did when home taping went mainstream*, and they similarly resisted the rise of social media as an important marketing platform ("this forum is on thin ice!") until they absolutely couldn't anymore, and now because they sat with their fingers in their ears yet again for - let's be honest here - decades, fandom has organised in their absence and established their own communities where reactions to new things will likely first materialise, and possibly even a consensus will form.  Corporations need these organised fandoms to go away so that they can be replaced with more easily manipulated consumer groups, and that's why we're seeing these attacks on Ghostbusters, Star Trek and now Star Wars fans - in order for the corporate owners to exclusively dictate the terms of discussion about and reactions to their products, they have to invalidate voices or opinions that might not play along.

The latest target seems to be She-Ra fans, who are apparently all misogynistic jerks for pointing out that She-Ra looks more abstractly stylised than she used to because Filmation's techniques could accommodate the animation of more complex character designs such as those based on toys or action figures. whereas 2d animation has latterly erred to more consistent but less detailed character models that are easier to replicate digitally and can lend themselves to more easily produced toy molds.
In other words, new She-Ra has a big chin and no cleavage so it must be sexists complaining, and the best way to combat them is to do loads of fanart and promote our show for us.  OUR SHOW WHICH IS ONLY ON NETFLIX etc

* Though unsurprisingly they also tried to keep all the extra profits that came from emergent platforms, hence the last two major writers' strikes
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 23 July, 2018, 04:06:10 PM
I think that's a pretty astute analysis, but it doesn't take away from the current and immediate consequence, where the antediluvian whinings of overgrown infants is the loudest noise in creation, and commensurately garners the most attention.  Whoever is smoothing their path towards ever-greater cultural (and political) influence and normalisation of behaviour and distortions of language that I can hardly believe, I wish they'd lay the feck off. It's wall-to-wall Sc*j* out there now, with a side order of unironic Godpleton.

And the She-Ra thing had me nodding along in agreement with JMS' comments, which is always disturbing.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 23 July, 2018, 04:07:13 PM
My general opinions haven't changed, I thought Force Awakens was a very safe and promising start, but I didn't like the token death in it. Last Jedi was not my thing at all, with a flurry of bad decisions that not only ruined that film, but has retrospectively robbed Force Awakens of some of its strongest story elements. The attempts at humour in Last Jedi fall entirely flat and feel out of place.

I do not find common ground with any of the extreme voices on you tube beyond my dislike of episode 8. I don't care who runs lucasfilm, I don't care about the gender, sexuality, race or religion of my heroes.....I just want an exciting action adventure film with positive aspirational role models for both of my children* (girl and a boy), hope, and good triumphing over evil. And please aim the films at all ages......I'm increasingly bemused by who each film is for. Last Jedi certainly played at a lot younger audience that the Clone wars cartoon.

On a positive note......it took me until the age of 45 to get bored about talking Star Wars. I think I just need to accept that it's an entirely different beast now and it seems is just not "my thing".

*can anyone point at the positive male role model in Last jedi?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 23 July, 2018, 04:24:44 PM
Perfectly reasonable!

I don't really get the idea that TLJ aims younger than CW, though. Complexity-wise there was the manner of Rey and Ben's connection, Luke's fake-out, the arms dealing... all at least CW level stuff. In the grim/violence stakes, there was the whole bit with Snoke and his guards getting sliced and diced, Paige's death, Holdo's sacrifice (a particularly CW moment, actually) and the erosion of the entire Resistance down to the hold of a YT-1300 light freighter... even if there were a few hiding in the cape room.  I don't see much there that isn't at least at the age-level of CW, without quite as much of the exposition that dogged that show's middle period.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 23 July, 2018, 05:19:30 PM
I think that's a pretty astute analysis, but it doesn't take away from the current and immediate consequence, where the antediluvian whinings of overgrown infants is the loudest noise in creation, and commensurately garners the most attention.

This has surely long been a problem with the mainstream media - that negatively-skewed stories are the ones that have been proven to grab attention and thus reward those with advertising revenue to generate?  Add to which, most websites now rely upon "hate clicks" (deliberately provocative and/or wrong scenarios presented as fair comment in order to make people angry enough to share, view or respond to the text) as a revenue model with the rise of adblocking and popup blocking plugins wiping out the malware profit margins.
The real problem - as usual - is capitalism, as the issue is not the entitled man-babies who were always there, it is that their hate has now been successfully monetised and corporate concerns are not known for wanting to change course at the best of times, let alone when they've found a new money printing method.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 23 July, 2018, 05:38:26 PM
Once youtubers realised they had a massive upswing in viewers and donations to their channels when they made a negative Lucasfilm video, the volume increased exponentially, and just about the only thing they talk about now is Star Wars and whole channels have been created to exploit it – which financially benefits youtube as well as its content producers.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 23 July, 2018, 06:03:01 PM
...whole channels have been created to exploit it – which financially benefits youtube as well as its content producers.

Whole channels full of nothing but lies, in many cases.  Multiple videos per day by people (men, for want of a better word) whose ability to spell Kashyyyk might reasonably be called into question (I kid, no gatekeeping at Tordeltowers! Arriviste scum) with headlines 'KENNEDY FIRED!' turn out to have nothing to do with the content, said ranting usually consisting of reports of reports from Personal Contacts and Rock-Solid Sources who were at Top Secret Disney Boardroom Meetings where @joeskywalkerLIVES999's most recent observations were being taken Very Seriously. It's as if SuperShadow has metastasised and monetised in one hideous evolutionary leap. 

And again, none of the wit of RLM or a Jenny Nicholson type (her scathing review of Solo well worth a look, BTW), where at least you got a grin out of the invective.  This is just goateed baseball caps surrounded by Hot Toys Clone Troopers jealous much pretending they never doubted George Lucas (or Dave Filoni) for a second.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 23 July, 2018, 06:15:05 PM
ADDENDUM:  It'd be an interesting study to analyse how many of these guys previously did the equally cynically uncritical Lucafilm fan panels for fun (and profit), before turning to the dark side (and profit).
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Tiplodocus 23 July, 2018, 06:35:09 PM
*can anyone point at the positive male role model in Last jedi?

Why male? Shouldn't just being a positive role model, regardless of gender, be enough?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 23 July, 2018, 06:45:56 PM
*can anyone point at the positive male role model in Last jedi?

Why male? Shouldn't just being a positive role model, regardless of gender, be enough?

Also, aren't most of the male heroes in TLJ positive role models?  Poe goes from hotheaded genius fighter pilot (whose actions as I'll argue yet again actually save the fleet at D'Qar) to humble and thoughtful leader, Luke picks himself up from abject failure and despair to wry wit and heroic inspiration: he's a genuine role model.  Not really sure what Finn is up to in this one, TBH, other than "learning", which is a bit of a shame when his journey in TFA is so clear.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 23 July, 2018, 06:51:59 PM
*can anyone point at the positive male role model in Last jedi?

Why male? Shouldn't just being a positive role model, regardless of gender, be enough?

By that rationale, the role model also needn't be female and we're back to square one.  I think the progressive case for more diversity is predicated on the notion that audiences wish/deserve to be personally represented, in which case males have as much right to a representative role model as females.

Although I'd argue there are no good role models in Last Jedi - almost everyone makes monstrously stupid mistakes that get people killed.

(her scathing review of Solo well worth a look, BTW)

I like Jenny, but had to tap out about 10 minutes into the Solo review because it was getting into CinemaSins nitpicking territory.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 23 July, 2018, 07:06:38 PM
(her scathing review of Solo well worth a look, BTW)

I like Jenny, but had to tap out about 10 minutes into the Solo review because it was getting into CinemaSins nitpicking territory.

That it did, but in the context of her other lighter more coherent stuff, I thought that the non-stop barrage of negative minutiae was at least part of the joke.  Probably helped that I was surprised to find myself well-disposed towards Solo.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: IndigoPrime 23 July, 2018, 07:18:49 PM
I think the progressive case for more diversity is predicated on the notion that audiences wish/deserve to be personally represented, in which case males have as much right to a representative role model as females.
In which case, look at, I dunno, about 99% of media. As someone bringing up a girl, I'm sick and tired of the notion that films should have X character as a role model. Across film, we should get a range. So if you watch 50 films, you'd see men, women, boys, girls, straight, gay, white, PoC. But what we really get is OH MY GOD THERE'S A GIRL, WHY ARE THERE NO MENZ

And I know that wasn't what you were saying, Professor Bear, but I really wish media as a whole would be a bit more thoughtful. The reality is: people argue girls will read about/watch boys, but not the reverse. The white male becomes the default. Everyone else has to pick up the scraps. Frankly, whatever else I think about the new Star Wars, I was really fucking happy that the hero was a woman, and that the co-hero was black. It's not like the film's not full of white blokes elsewhere anyway – it's just they're (for once) not the leads.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 23 July, 2018, 10:23:54 PM
Yeah, I follow all this guys, but I have to admit, as a 5 year old boy watching Star Wars i really wanted to be Luke, and a little later still I wanted to be Han (now I want to be luke again.....but the one from Return of the Jedi, not that new guy). At no point did I want to be Princess Leia, despite the fact that (in the original trilogy) she was fantastic.

I think it's okay for a little boy to have positive male role models that they want to emulate. That's not denigrating the female role models in the film in any way by saying that.

As for the men in Last jedi, we are arguing that they learned something and improved......maybe......but they are all shown to be inferior people to begin with, and they don't really come across very well for 99% of the fil. Most of them are shown to be fairly stupid and sub-standard for the majority of the film. The.man who would rather die than turn to the dark side, who would sacrifice his life in the solid belief that there was just a shred of decency in his genocidal child murderer father considers.murdering his own nephew because he thought he was a little off kilter. Sigh.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 23 July, 2018, 10:34:08 PM
The Last Jedi fundamentally misunderstands a characters core being, I get that we can become jaded, disillusioned and bitter with age....but this took a giant step into the ridiculous in its about turn with that character choice. It just does not work (in my opinion). What's more, other than sensing darkness in his own nephew, Luke really didn't have any terrible experiences to corrupt his beliefs so drastically.

If they'd have just got Lukes character right, if he came across as a maturing of the same man that we saw in Return of the Jedi, I could have forgiven the film it's awful Finn, Rose, Po and Holdo story arcs and the constant rug pulling.

Right, enough of my anti last jedi propaganda......I've said it all before. It's just not for me.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 23 July, 2018, 10:55:41 PM
I think the progressive case for more diversity is predicated on the notion that audiences wish/deserve to be personally represented, in which case males have as much right to a representative role model as females.
In which case, look at, I dunno, about 99% of media. As someone bringing up a girl, I'm sick and tired of the notion that films should have X character as a role model. Across film, we should get a range. So if you watch 50 films, you'd see men, women, boys, girls, straight, gay, white, PoC. But what we really get is OH MY GOD THERE'S A GIRL, WHY ARE THERE NO MENZ

And I know that wasn't what you were saying, Professor Bear, but I really wish media as a whole would be a bit more thoughtful. The reality is: people argue girls will read about/watch boys, but not the reverse. The white male becomes the default. Everyone else has to pick up the scraps. Frankly, whatever else I think about the new Star Wars, I was really fucking happy that the hero was a woman, and that the co-hero was black. It's not like the film's not full of white blokes elsewhere anyway – it's just they're (for once) not the leads.

I really liked Rey in the Force Awakens. I thought all of the new cast were great. So much so in fact that I really wish the old cast weren't there to get in the way and cause problems.

I take no issue with Rey and Finn being front and centre in the whole trilogy.......what irritated me was the constant having to make men look stupid to elevate the female leads. That's not equality is it?  Finn is made to look inferior and stupid, Po gets the same treatment (and later finally learns how to run away) and Luke comes out of it worst of all. I'm assuming that was no accident. All men = lacklustre in that film. Kylo ultimately fails, but at the hands of cowardly Luke on his island.....where he seemingly hides while leaving his sister and family in constant mortal peril .....because that's what Luke is like......apparently.

Damn....thought I was finished ranting about this goddam stupid film.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Professor Bear 23 July, 2018, 11:40:55 PM
I didn't like Rey because she is a Mary Sue in the original sense of an authorial avatar within the fiction, rather than the more commonly accepted idea of a Mary Sue as someone who displays uber competence in all things - "OMG Han Solo!  OMG Millenium Falcon!  OMG I know all about the OT - but not those awful Prequels!"  So yeah basically I hated Rey because she's a Star Wars fan, and Star Wars fans, as we know from Disney's marketing, are dreadful.

I think the progressive case for more diversity is predicated on the notion that audiences wish/deserve to be personally represented, in which case males have as much right to a representative role model as females.
In which case, look at, I dunno, about 99% of media. As someone bringing up a girl, I'm sick and tired of the notion that films should have X character as a role model. Across film, we should get a range. So if you watch 50 films, you'd see men, women, boys, girls, straight, gay, white, PoC. But what we really get is OH MY GOD THERE'S A GIRL, WHY ARE THERE NO MENZ

It was unfair that 8 year old girls didn't have role models in sci-fi, but equally unfair that 8 year old boys now have to carry the can for it.  Some kids won't watch old films, so referring them to that 99% of existing media doesn't really help them much.  A level playing field would do that, but as you say, there will always be those in the audience for whom any concession to diversity is "too far, too quickly."
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Keef Monkey 24 July, 2018, 09:36:51 AM
The one criticism I keep seeing about TLJ that I really don't get is this notion that they got Luke's character wrong, or that he was a different person than he was in the original trilogy.

Just don't see it at all, he was always conflicted, prone to grumpiness and self doubt and even when he was projecting himself as some badass jedi warrior he could come out of it looking arrogant and flawed. I thought TLJ nailed that guy further down the line and later in life.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: IndigoPrime 24 July, 2018, 09:46:29 AM
At no point did I want to be Princess Leia, despite the fact that (in the original trilogy) she was fantastic.
She was also 'other'. She was Smurfette. Re-watching the original films, as Mrs G and I did years back, we were open-eyed about just how few women were in the entire run.

As for boys having male role models, I'm all for that, but, as I said, that's almost all media anyway. Film. TV. Comics. Books. I would say of the children's books we have for mini-IP, 90% have male protagonists. And this isn't for the want of trying to find something that doesn't (and that also isn't a stereotype of pink and unicorns). Of TV shows for kids, the vast, vast majority are male-focussed, and that's especially true for the popular ones. In the original Paw Patrol, of the six-dog line-up, FIVE are male. And she's the smallest. And pink. And 'support'. When they finally deigned to add another female dog, they stuck her up a fucking mountain, and made sure they added TWO extra male dogs, just so the boys didn't feel hard done by.

So, honestly, I don't care if there's a Star Wars film where the men aren't solely front, centre, heroic and amazing. Let boys see other people taking the lead now and again. As for equality within Star Wars alone, I might have more sympathy for that if we weren't still seeing a huge proportion of films (including ones for children) failing something some simple as the Bechdel test.

It was unfair that 8 year old girls didn't have role models in sci-fi, but equally unfair that 8 year old boys now have to carry the can for it.
How very dramatic. So they're "carrying the can" in one film. How terrible for them. Perhaps they can learn that it's OK to root for a woman, and consider her a role model. (And how are they really "carrying the can" here anyway? Even new Star Wars is weighted towards men in the primary cast. Would your solution have been to swap out Rey for a man?)

A level playing field would do that, but as you say, there will always be those in the audience for whom any concession to diversity is "too far, too quickly."
Fuck them. It's not 1950. Again, that we still have films – including children's films – where two named female characters don't talk about anything other than male characters is ludicrous. That we still have a vast, vast majority of films where there are no leads that are female, and where even the support cast and background cast are weighted heavily in favour of male characters is ludicrous.

There are exceptions. Saving Private Ryan, for example, obviously isn't going to be terribly equal in terms of gender. But when you have things like science fiction, far into the future, there's no bloody excuse. (Hello, rebooted Star Trek, which in your utopian future still seems to basically be a sausage fest. And Star Wars, frankly, no longer has that excuse either, even if it's technically set far in the past.)

Keef Monkey: I agree. The portrayal of him seemed quite in keeping. He was slap-dash, arrogant, and grumpy. But also, he came good in the end. I suspect part of the problem for people is these stories don't match the one people have had in their heads since the 1980s.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 24 July, 2018, 09:50:28 AM
The one criticism I keep seeing about TLJ that I really don't get is this notion that they got Luke's character wrong, or that he was a different person than he was in the original trilogy.

Just don't see it at all, he was always conflicted, prone to grumpiness and self doubt and even when he was projecting himself as some badass jedi warrior he could come out of it looking arrogant and flawed. I thought TLJ nailed that guy further down the line and later in life.

I think he couldn't be a more different character.

You think that the Luke Skywalker who would lay down his life rather than turn to evil, and is eternally optimistic, to the point of his own potential destruction, that there is a spark of good in a man who has done the terrible things that his father has done would turn into a man that would murder a young, defenceless, confused member of his own family in his sleep because he sensed a flicker of bad in him? A person that had, at that time, done nothing?

A guy who would rush headlong into mortal peril to help his friends, would completely abandon them?

I'm struggling with that one. Our interpretations of that character are clearly a hundred miles apart.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 24 July, 2018, 10:07:49 AM
I think maybe we were all watching different films. So....

A new hope - luke aspires to join the rebellion to fight the evil empire. Risks his life to save a princess, then risks it again to destroy the death star. He's a bit stroppy because he's young and bored.

Empire - luke fights the evil empire on hoth, trains to be a jedi, but must leave to save his friends....risks his life for them......chooses potential death rather than join his evil father.

Jedi - luke risks his life to save his friend from Jabba, tells yoda he can't murder his father, tells his sister he can save their father, risks his life to do so, chooses almost certain death rather than join the emperor.

Last jedi - luke has trained some young aspiring jedi.....has a sense of something bad in his nephew....decides to go and kill him in his sleep. Abandons all of his friends and hides from the baddies.

We know of no terrible trauma that he's had over the decades that should somehow push luke to this incredible about face on all of his beliefs and convictions......he's just a bit of a coward and a weasle now because he's older.....and he had a dodgy feeling about something that hadn't happened.....despite him knowing jedi visions are entirely unreliable.

Seriously? Help me out with where that was plausible character progression. He's fundamentally changed his entire belief system and motivations for absolutely no good reason. Why has he lost everything that made him Luke?.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 24 July, 2018, 10:17:48 AM
I don't need a big lightsaber duel, I don't need over the top fan service wankery.....just a believable interpretation of an old character. Hans character progression I could understand, didn't particularly like it, but I can understand it. Lukes......it didn't appear to be the same character, just the same actor doing distinctly out of character things.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 24 July, 2018, 10:26:47 AM
It's fair to say......it's not for me.

I'm sure that the film must appeal to those who can reconcile such a quantum shift in a character who was inherently the personification of all that is good and noble, becoming something pathetic and cowardly. It grates on me, and it's a step too far for me to extract any enjoyment from the film.

Right.....I really must go and find something more worthwhile to do with my life!  ;)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 24 July, 2018, 10:43:54 AM
I think you're a bit confused as to what happens in the movie, SIP, although I accept that you're far from alone in your interpretation, so maybe the confusion is on my side...

First off, the bit in RotJ, where Luke is wailing on Vader like he's an asthmatic practice dummy? That's where he gives into the power of his anger, his innate dark side, in response to his failure to protect Leia's identity. He almost kills Vader, taking the quick easy path, until Palps interrupts and he realises what's going on.

In TLJ, in the last of the three versions of his visit to Ben's bedside, the true one, he sees the terrible future Ben represents, the threat to everything and everyone he loves, and for a second the quick, easy path beckons again. And again he turns away from it. But this time, Ben has seen his moment of temptation, and everything goes to shit. The point is, however, that he doesn't give in.

I can't see that as anything but completely consistent.

Link  (https://youtu.be/eCrULIMdyOI) to shitty cammed version of the scene.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: IndigoPrime 24 July, 2018, 10:54:20 AM
The difference in ROTJ is by taking the difficult path, he emerges victorious. In TLJ's flashbacks, his decisions cause untold pain and misery, and so it's no wonder he then wants nothing to do with anything else at that point.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 24 July, 2018, 10:55:53 AM
No confusion whatsoever, though I can understand that peoples interpretations will differ. He does snap in jedi and attacks his father when provoked, but he stops short on his own volition.....the amount of provocation luke has had at this point is fairly extreme as he's actually physically witnessing the destruction of the rebellion, the death of all his friends and is then threatened with the corruption of his sister.....and he still ultimately controls himself and takes the noble path.

I'm not sure if that level of provocation draws a parallel with luke actively going to Kylo's bedside and considering his murder in a moment of weakness because of what he "senses" in Kylo.  It's just not equivalent threat.

This also doesn't go on to justify lukes subsequent protracted behaviour and the disregarding of his family, friends and the fate of the galaxy.

: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 24 July, 2018, 11:07:53 AM
Luke is also aware sensing the future is not entirely reliable. The difference between witnessing the destruction of everything and lashing out, ultimately displaying self control and self sacrifice, and acting on a feeling, that may or may not happen, leading to  considering premeditated cold blooded murder of your nephew seem poles apart to me.

Anyway, arguing interpretations and points of view seems fairly non-constructive. I don't see Luke Skywalker in that film, others do. Fair enough!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Link Prime 24 July, 2018, 11:08:40 AM
100% with SIP on Luke's portrayal in TLJ.
All topped off with a death scene more ignoble than an alka seltzer dissolving in a jar of warm tramp piss.

Pew Pew to the rest of ya!  ;)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 24 July, 2018, 11:11:32 AM
I don't think Luke goes to Ben's bedside with the intention of killing him, any more than he surrendered at Endor with the intention of killing Vader. He's peering into his mind to see what's going on - and what he finds terrifies him. The parallel being drawn here is with Anakin's fall (fueled by visions of doom), and possibly his own foolish, pointless rush to Bespin (which was the right thing to do nonetheless). Who knows to what extent Luke has come to trust the snippets the Force shows him?

Note also that it is the mechanical hand that holds the sabre, unlike at Endor, but he looks at its whirring gears just the same, and reaches the same conclusion: he won't take the easy path.

His response to events, to delivering his nephew up to corruption, the loss of his other students to either the dark side (the elusive Knights of Ren) or death, exactly as Obi-Wan and Yoda did before him, is enough to convince him that he personally, and the Jedi Order itself, are the fecking problem. I can see that.

Again, I find a hero who is tempted but resists, who despairs but finds hope again, far more interesting and believable than one who remains unchallenged since the triumphs of his early 20s.

EDIT: sublime imagery there, Link!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 24 July, 2018, 11:28:40 AM
If nothing else, I guess this debate only serves to show the opposing views of Star wars fans everywhere right now.

I completely understand your arguments, and I can appreciate that it works - for you, but I respectfully wholesale disagree with them. It's just not Luke Skywalker. 

People can level the odd argument of "that's the interpretation of the character that you've constructed in your head"....well of course it is, based on 40 years of my experience with him. Just the same as everyone else!

Some find the direction it took exciting and interesting, I didn't. The fact that it's caused so much debate and polarisation could be seen as an indicator that something is off, many obviously share the same sentiments.

And they aren't all the same idiots posting hate videos on YouTube.

Hopefully episode 9 restores balance.  Let me know when you see it!  ;)

I'm bowing out now as, like new Star wars, I'm endlessly repeating myself. Think I've covered my thoughts pretty extensively. I'll let someone else have a go.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: wedgeski 24 July, 2018, 11:43:42 AM
I quite enjoyed Luke's character in TLJ, but have given up trying to convince anyone else of that. As soon as I report my feelings on the film to someone new, they immediately go on a tirade about Luke as if there's nothing else I could possibly dislike!
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 24 July, 2018, 11:53:08 AM
I quite enjoyed Luke's character in TLJ, but have given up trying to convince anyone else of that. As soon as I report my feelings on the film to someone new, they immediately go on a tirade about Luke as if there's nothing else I could possibly dislike!

Personally, I have no tirade to hurl at anyone, I'm merely expressing an opinion and partaking in a discussion on the Last Jedi in a thread about "The Last Jedi". I thought that was the whole point?

I would say again, if you like it, great, I'm pleased that some people do. Genuinely. I'd rather it had a happy audience than no audience.  I'm just  not one of them.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Dandontdare 24 July, 2018, 11:53:57 AM
I'm fighting with Tordelblock on this - to have Luke as a saintly white-knight figure would have been deathly boring - his doubts, mistakes and (although I hate the word in this context) journey, are what makes Luke a character rather than a cipher, and makes TLJ an interesting film rather than just a cgi spectacle or merch-advert. He's always been flawed, but comes good in the end. I honestly can't see him having an "incredible about face" or "fundamentally change his belief system" - that probably stems from an overly simplistic (mis)reading of his original character, and a refusal to accept that there has been a looong gap between the movies - events happen and people change, but it's all consistent and it's all explained.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 24 July, 2018, 11:56:37 AM
Why does anyone expressing an opposing view to others get levelled with "confused" or "overly simplistic (mis)reading" allegations?

Guys, could you be any more patronising and condescending?

I am neither. You just have a different opinion. I can accept that, can we play nice?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 24 July, 2018, 12:39:26 PM
.....and I can well accept that it's been a looooong time for the character - I've lived it! I was 10 when I first saw Return of the Jedi, I was 44 when I saw The Last Jedi, believe me, I know that time has passed.

Other than seeing potential darkness in Kylo, did I miss the detailed description of everything that had happened to Luke in the 30 years that jaded him so? What was fully detailed and explained in the film? If it was all in the film, we wouldn't be having the debate. I saw it twice.....it's not all explained in the film beyond him reacting to the fate he saw for Kylo.

And as argued at length, I DON'T think it's consistent. That's  exactly my opinion, I think it's inconsistent.


Anyway......the more I try to get out, the more they suck me back in. Lunch time  :)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 24 July, 2018, 12:44:28 PM
For me I have to ask the question the film-makers/audience after The Force Awakens were left with:

Why would Luke Skywalker vanish to an unknown location for a decade and remain incommunicado from his friends and family? What would make him choose to do that and how hard would it be to turn him around?

A personal failing and loss of faith is one of the few convincing character dilemmas that would drive him to do such a thing otherwise it's about resorting to plot contrivances rather than dramatic character reasons to keep him in force-silent mode on that island for so long.

Should he be a prisoner of the plot/antagonist or a prisoner of his own conscience?

I know which one I prefer and I can definitely see someone as passionate as Luke take such a personal sense of failure* to the end point: He wouldn't turn to the dark side, he would shut down.

You can argue the degree to how well the idea is executed but I think it's the best and more interesting reveal to any others I've heard raised as alternatives.

*unconsciously kill the problem with a lightsaber out of fear/anger, as he almost did before.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 24 July, 2018, 01:22:15 PM
Why does anyone expressing an opposing view to others get levelled with "confused" or "overly simplistic (mis)reading" allegations?

The only point where i see possible confusion (and I accept that I may be the one confused here) is in the reading of the specific flashback scene itself: I think a lot of people's views of the final (true?) version of those events is coloured by the previous iterations: Kylo's dark side Luke in particular, my first viewing of which gave me exactly those "Luke would never do that!" vibes I see expressed in this argument.  What I see in Luke's final confession is fear and momentary weakness instantly replaced by shame, rather than the anger-fueled machiavellian malevolence of the earlier version. 

Here's (https://youtu.be/Td4AQZMTkTQ) a half-decent mishmash of all three versions of bedside scene, Luke's self-serving original one included (although I note bits are missing). I think the direct contrast between the second and third is my central point.

Not believing those events are in character for an older version of OT Luke, I can accept that as a point of view, and it does suggest that the filmmakers didn't achieve their aim, as I understand it.  The confusion I refer to is in really what that aim was.  For myself, I saw an older Luke I could completely believe, and like SIP, that guy has been living in my head for 40 years.       
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: wedgeski 24 July, 2018, 01:43:50 PM
I quite enjoyed Luke's character in TLJ, but have given up trying to convince anyone else of that. As soon as I report my feelings on the film to someone new, they immediately go on a tirade about Luke as if there's nothing else I could possibly dislike!

Personally, I have no tirade to hurl at anyone, I'm merely expressing an opinion and partaking in a discussion on the Last Jedi in a thread about "The Last Jedi". I thought that was the whole point?
I'm not sure how you read that as being directed at you, but I assure you it wasn't. :)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 24 July, 2018, 01:46:18 PM
Incidentally, in my rewatching of those scenes this morning I noticed that Ben's apprentice-era sabre appears to be the slefsame hilt as Kylo's broadsword yoke.  Which means he basically added spoilers, a noisy exhaust and painted it black.  Who says evil is cool?
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 24 July, 2018, 02:05:33 PM
I quite enjoyed Luke's character in TLJ, but have given up trying to convince anyone else of that. As soon as I report my feelings on the film to someone new, they immediately go on a tirade about Luke as if there's nothing else I could possibly dislike!

Personally, I have no tirade to hurl at anyone, I'm merely expressing an opinion and partaking in a discussion on the Last Jedi in a thread about "The Last Jedi". I thought that was the whole point?
I'm not sure how you read that as being directed at you, but I assure you it wasn't. :)

Sorry sir, I may have been overly touchy there based on the fact that I was offering the opposite opinion in my reading of Luke's character.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 24 July, 2018, 03:55:19 PM
Who says evil is cool?

He has an impressive calligraphy set for when the edgelord needs to break-out some stanzas proclaiming "Luke is a rotter and his robes smell of old piss".

(https://i.redd.it/i0lbkv0yakn01.png)
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 24 July, 2018, 04:33:53 PM
I did find the calligraphy set amusing at the time. I'm not sure those Sacred Jedi Texts that Luke tracked down led him to design an entirely practical guarding-peace-and-justice-in-the-galaxy curriculum. Either that or there's a TESB deleted scene somewhere where Yoda instills in Luke the value of good penmanship in defeating the Empire. 
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 25 July, 2018, 12:15:03 AM
So in the wake of the James Gunn disaster, Rian Johnson has apparently deleted 20K tweets.  Is this the beginning of the end for the most interesting aspect of social media, interacting with creatives and other professionals and getting insights into their work?  I'm reminded of the flight of many artists and writers from this very forum for different reasons, now are we going to see everyone of any interest clamming up for fear of having their past remarks dragged out by far-right assholes and used to lobby for their dismissal in the present?  Can't be many of us who've been on here for a while could risk a job in the public spotllght, so!

And yet that mound of fly-blown human waste in the White House endures.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 25 July, 2018, 08:24:56 AM
I think I'm generally relieved. It may now stop Lucasfilm from seemingly wanting to constantly pour fuel on to the fire.

Do you think that Disney have stepped in post "Gunn"?

Tweets from a broad range of Lucasfilm management and creatives inferring that if you don't like "new" Star Wars that you can either be labelled as a man baby, a misogynist, a racist, a sexist etc have not exactly been endearing to huge portions of it's "custoners". It's also given more and more ammunition to the you tube ranters.

I know that these tweets were intended to be directed at a very select group of people, but unfortunately they don't always read that way.

Insulting your customers on a very regular basis isn't the best of business decisions. I have to wonder if Disney finally woke up to it as Lucasfilm have been uncharacteristically quiet for a month or so, especially Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 25 July, 2018, 08:39:45 AM
As for Gunn....a little common sense was required there I think.

I work in a College, my wife an infant school. If either of us decided to tweet in our free time the sort of things Gunn was tweeting*, we would rapidly be unemployed.

He was working for Disney, the home of family and child entertainment......

* I haven't read the tweets.....so I'm commenting based on the reports that I heard regarding their content.  I have read the majority of the Lucasfilm tweets, including Johnson's and they are incredibly badly judged.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 25 July, 2018, 08:51:15 AM
He was working for Disney, the home of family and child entertainment......

No, he wasn't - if that was the case, he'd deserve no sympathy at all, and Disney would be well rid of him.

His (stupid, unfunny) tweets date from the period he was working for Troma etc, back before 2012, when he was actively trying for as crude a sense of humour as possible.  He has sincerely apologised in the past for his online persona back then, and expressed regret on numerous occasions.  Disney was fully aware of all this taking him on, and there's been no repeat behaviour since he started making kids' movies.

In short, he made stupid jokes in the past, but he's trying - and by all accounts succeeding - at being better.

His mistake was criticising Trump and his online shitheel pals.

Take a look at the archives of this very forum. See us all acting like assholes on several notable threads.  See most of us acting a lot better now.  People change.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 25 July, 2018, 08:53:27 AM
He was working for Disney, the home of family and child entertainment......

No, he wasn't - if that was the case, he'd deserve no sympathy at all, and Disney would be well rid of him.

His (stupid, unfunny) tweets date from the period he was working for Troma etc, back before 2012, when he was actively trying to for as crude a sense of humour as possible.  He has sincerely apologised for his online persona back then, and expressed regret on numerous occasions.  Disney was fully aware of all this taking him on, and there's been no repeat behaviour since he started making kids movies.

In short, he made stupid jokes in the past, he's trying - and by all accounts succeeding - at being better.

His mistake was criticising Trump and his online shitheel pals.

To clarify "he was working for Disney", I'm referring to his recent sacking, not his employment at the time of the tweet.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 25 July, 2018, 08:54:42 AM
It's a business decision.....Disney don't want to be associated with the subject matter, they cut him loose. Harsh, but hardly surprising.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: Steve Green 25 July, 2018, 08:55:12 AM
I'd also add that these kids movies have one character being called a 'green whore' and a reference to the spunk spattered status of Starlord's ship.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 25 July, 2018, 08:58:15 AM
Also, anyone can dredge up anything that I've written online since I discovered the Internet, you may find me rambling about a film or comic, but you won't find me making jokes or passing comment on such sensitive and inappropriate issues.

My children are taught this at school.....don't put things on the Internet that may well destroy your career prospects..
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: SIP 25 July, 2018, 09:05:07 AM
And another day of "heated debate" begins...... :lol:
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: TordelBack 25 July, 2018, 09:06:04 AM
Also, anyone can dredge up anything that I've written online since I discovered the Internet, you may find me rambling about a film or comic, but you won't find me making jokes or passing comment on such sensitive and inappropriate issues.

Lucky you!  A blameless past!

Many of us here contributed to a thread called "Who wants to look at women's underware[sic]?", pretty sure most of us regret it, and wouldn't do it now.  Should we now be placed on a watch list somewhere?  (Obviously Tips should, but that's a different matter).

I do take Steve's point about certain elements of GotG though: and Whedon's Avengers for that matter.
: Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
: JOE SOAP 25 July, 2018, 09:13:30 AM
It's a business decision.....Disney don't want to be associated with the subject matter, they cut him loose. Harsh, but hardly surprising.