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General Chat => Film & TV => : Frank 23 August, 2017, 08:16:27 PM

: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Frank 23 August, 2017, 08:16:27 PM

He's only producing, but - before you think that restores a shred of dignity - he's hired The Hangover guy to direct.

I'm not linking to the press release, but it's a classic. It's a full house for anyone playing DC Cinematic Universe bingo - "dark ... gritty and grounded ... set in the eighties ... more of a dark crime movie than a traditional superhero adventure".

I don't blame him for taking Time Warner's cash for putting his name on this  - he's 100 years old and hates the world for not going to see his Japanese priest torture porn movie.


: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Goaty 23 August, 2017, 08:19:07 PM
Links please.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Frank 23 August, 2017, 08:42:12 PM

http://bfy.tw/DXIb


: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Goaty 23 August, 2017, 08:43:42 PM

http://bfy.tw/DXIb

(https://media.giphy.com/media/pPhYIDiYzOGSA/giphy.gif)
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: JLC 23 August, 2017, 08:45:10 PM
Links please.
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/aug/23/martin-scorsese-to-produce-gritty-and-grounded-joker-origin-story-reports
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Goaty 23 August, 2017, 08:47:30 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/aug/23/martin-scorsese-to-produce-gritty-and-grounded-joker-origin-story-reports

(http://i.imgur.com/BIT4TTM.gif)
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: JLC 23 August, 2017, 08:52:12 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/aug/23/martin-scorsese-to-produce-gritty-and-grounded-joker-origin-story-reports

(http://i.imgur.com/BIT4TTM.gif)
Odd response. Your one of those types I guess who has just discovered gifs?
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Richard 23 August, 2017, 10:18:03 PM
At least he's discovered grammar.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: JLC 23 August, 2017, 10:21:27 PM
At least he's discovered grammar.
Hilarious...
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: JOE SOAP 23 August, 2017, 11:33:52 PM
He all ready made that film.

(http://www.movingimage.us/images/calendar/media/King_of_Comedy-detail-main1-detail-main.jpg)
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Professor Bear 23 August, 2017, 11:53:41 PM
This is the world we deserve, because it's the one we've made.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: TordelBack 24 August, 2017, 12:03:35 AM
Odd response. Your one of those types I guess who has just discovered gifs?

Nah Goaty's been a gif-slinging machine since you still had to paint them with animal fat and charcoal on the sides of migrating mammoth.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: paddykafka 26 August, 2017, 03:35:03 PM
Yep. He's the Gif that keeeps on Giffing! :lol:
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Richard 26 August, 2017, 04:28:31 PM
 :D
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: IAMTHESYSTEM 26 August, 2017, 05:38:39 PM
I guess the crown prince of crime is going to be a wise guy. This attempt to recast the Joker as an organised crime figure does resonate with me since a lot of the animated Batman stories had this as the back story of the Joker, and you can see Warner Bros logic behind it. Our attempts to make Batman into a franchise have all fallen short of expectation and the best-considered version, Christopher Nolans 2008 Dark Knight had a genuinely compelling villain. Which Film Directors have made the most admired Movies about career crooks? Martin Scorsese has so we'll hire him to oversee our production about a psychotic Comic Book Villain in the hope this will make the audience feel our Joker is more realistic or credible. Whether Mr Scorsese gets a say in casting, editing or anything else, I doubt, but it does smack of desperation on Warner's part.   
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Frank 26 August, 2017, 06:49:47 PM
Whether Mr Scorsese gets a say in casting, editing or anything else, I doubt

I'm sure the film will show as much of its Executive Producer's influence as that Batman v Superman Chris Nolan put his name to.

Scorsese's involvement will be the same as the bras Holly Willoughby 'designs' for New Look. Their PA shows them some samples, they say 'does it have to be blue?' or 'the tits should be bigger; the next thing they hear about it is when it's in the bargain bin, with their name all over it.


: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: sheridan 28 August, 2017, 04:23:19 PM
I guess the crown prince of crime is going to be a wise guy. This attempt to recast the Joker as an organised crime figure does resonate with me since a lot of the animated Batman stories had this as the back story of the Joker, and you can see Warner Bros logic behind it.
Also the Joker has been a be-suited organised crime figure since at least far back as Burton/Nicholson's Batman from the 1980s (which was probably the first Batman story I, and many others, were exposed to other than the 1960s TV series).
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Frank 05 October, 2019, 09:07:00 AM

"I don’t see them. I tried, you know? But that’s not cinema,” Scorsese told Empire magazine about the Marvel movies. “Honestly, the closest I can think of them, as well made as they are, with actors doing the best they can under the circumstances, is theme parks. It isn’t the cinema of human beings trying to convey emotional, psychological experiences to another human being.”


Turns out Scorsese had nothing at all to do with Hangover-guy's Taxi Driver rip-off. Unless Marty's being paid to troll Marvel fanboys:


1/ Goodfellas
2 Raging Bull
3/ The King Of Comedy
4/ After Hours
5/ Taxi Driver
6/ Mean Streets
7/ Cape Fear
8/ Captain America
9/ Casino
10/ New York New York
11/ Iron Man
12/ Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore
13/ Hugo
14/ Thor: Ragnarok
15/ Bringing Out The Dead
16/ The Age Of Innocence
17/ Guardians Of The Galaxy
18/ The Color Of Money
19/ The Aviator
20/ Avengers: Endgame
21/ Bringing Out The Dead
22/ The Passion Of The Christ
23/ Iron Man 3
24/ Gangs Of New York
25/ Kundun
26/ Dr Strange



: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: JayzusB.Christ 05 October, 2019, 01:00:31 PM
Anyone seen it yet? While I've seen mixed reviews, I can't wait.  I never really had much interest in Marvel characters and was disappointed to see the last few Superman / Batman movies falling flat.  I really hope Joker gives DC films a bit of a boost.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: The Enigmatic Dr X 05 October, 2019, 02:41:06 PM
Nope. My 14 year old just got knocked back from it.

Y'know, the original posts on this thread might end up being premature, if reviews are anything to go by.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Frank 05 October, 2019, 03:22:46 PM
Nope. My 14 year old just got knocked back from it.

Y'know, the original posts on this thread might end up being premature, if reviews are anything to go by.

Joker is 6 on Metacritic (https://www.metacritic.com/movie/joker), 7 on RT (https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/joker_2019#contentReviews) (9 audience), and 9 on IMDB (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7286456/ratings?ref_=tt_ov_rt) (audience only).

It got a B+ on Cinemascore (https://www.cinemascore.com/)*; same as IT: Chapter 2, less than Hobbs & Shaw (A-) or Gerard Butler's Angel Has Fallen (A-).


* Paying patrons surveyed in lobbies straight after leaving screenings, rather than self-reporting users of websites, who may or may not have seen the movie
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: JayzusB.Christ 05 October, 2019, 05:19:41 PM
Cheers Frank. Oddly not nearly as consistently high as I'd expected, after reports of standing ovations and chatter about potential Oscars.  Still, I love the fact that this seems to be a small-scale character study rather than a messy sci-fi extravaganza, and I think it's pretty brave of DC to allow their most famous supervillain to be used this way.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Frank 05 October, 2019, 06:50:02 PM

It won the Golden Lion at Venice (https://edition.cnn.com/2019/09/07/entertainment/joker-venice-film-festival-trnd/index.html), so critics went into it expecting to be impressed. That probably means some of the critic scores cited above are a little low. Equally, the kind of people who see a film on its first day (and who rate it on the internet) are predisposed to like it.

As Cosh points out on this discussion of Batman Vs Superman (https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=38907.msg912183#msg912183), once regular punters vote in numbers that correct for initial fan enthusiasm, the high audience scores and low critic scores meet somewhere in the middle. Today, Batman Vs Superman's rated 6.5 on IMDB (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2975590/ratings?ref_=tt_ov_rt)*

If history's any guide, that B+ Cinemascore (https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/4c045x/batman_v_superman_gets_an_b_on_cinemascore/) means Joker's probably a quite enjoyable movie that you'll enjoy a little more than most if you're already a fan.


* note the anomalous spikes in 10 & 0 scores, just like Joker (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7286456/ratings?ref_=tt_ov_rt)
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: dweezil2 05 October, 2019, 07:23:16 PM
Anyone seen it yet? While I've seen mixed reviews, I can't wait.  I never really had much interest in Marvel characters and was disappointed to see the last few Superman / Batman movies falling flat.  I really hope Joker gives DC films a bit of a boost.

I felt that the serious themes of mental health and social decay were an uncomfortable match for a rather shallow super villain origin story, even though Pheonix's performance is remarkable at times.

It wears it's Scorsese influence a little too obviously on it's clown crumpled sleeve also, though their are moments of audatious grandeur and it looks fabulous, with the film's attention to 80's style Gotham.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Funt Solo 05 October, 2019, 07:45:10 PM
...Hangover-guy's Taxi Driver rip-off.

The textual equivalent of pissing all over Todd Phillips doormat and then belching drunkenly in his face when he opens the door to complain. Have you even seen the movie?
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: karlos 05 October, 2019, 08:09:36 PM
Just saw it.

It's crap.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Apestrife 05 October, 2019, 09:04:52 PM
Saw it yesterday. Really liked it. Bit like Taxi Driver does King of Comedy with sprinkles of American Psycho in clown spackle. The thing about his laugh was heartbreaking... Some really creepy scenes (in a good way I think). Fascinating getting to root for a character and then despise him. Me and my friend's take away from watching it was a solid "hope people become nicer to each other" in unison.

As for it borrowing a lot from Scorsese, I didn't mind. Wouldn't mind if more did.

Made me really want to watch The Dark Knight. Watching it now. heist in the beginning. "I hear he wears makeup... to scare people. You know, war paint.", made the two fit together in my head canon. Phoenix mista J being an inspiration to Heath's Joker.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Richard 06 October, 2019, 12:33:05 AM
Just saw it tonight. It's brilliant. Not for everyone, perhaps, but I think that is a matter of personal taste, not a defect in the film. When I read a two word review that just says "it's crap," that tells me more about the reviewer than it tells anyone about the film. Phoenix will be nominated for an Oscar.

It's not an action movie. It's a dark and brutal character study of how a mentally ill but initially decent man spirals down into becoming vengeful and ultimately evil. I think the trailer (at least the trailer I saw) accurately shows the tone of the film.

It reminded me of Nightcrawler, and I think that is a good litmus test. If you liked / disliked that film, your reaction to Joker will probably be the same.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: karlos 06 October, 2019, 02:56:01 PM
I'll eluicidate.

I was hugely excited for this but, for me, it did not deliver, beyond a very good central performance and the occasional bit of bleak humour.

Felt very much like a patchwork assembly of parts from other, better films (the 70s WB logo was a giveaway, I guess).

Kudos to DC for letting it get it made and I hope it's success leads to more of these off-centre comic book films getting made but I really did not like it at all.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: radiator 07 October, 2019, 08:30:54 AM
Anyone seen it yet? While I've seen mixed reviews, I can't wait.  I never really had much interest in Marvel characters and was disappointed to see the last few Superman / Batman movies falling flat.  I really hope Joker gives DC films a bit of a boost.

I felt that the serious themes of mental health and social decay were an uncomfortable match for a rather shallow super villain origin story, even though Pheonix's performance is remarkable at times.

It wears it's Scorsese influence a little too obviously on it's clown crumpled sleeve also, though their are moments of audatious grandeur and it looks fabulous, with the film's attention to 80's style Gotham.

I’d go along with this take. It all seems a bit overly serious for what amounts to a slightly preposterous tale (the fairly perfunctory plotting and more egregiously comic booky elements are easily the weakest aspects of the film) but if its going to be superhero movies from here to eternity its probably better if they’re as stylish and character/performance focused as this, I suppose.

Not a masterpiece by any stretch, but worth seeing.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Keef Monkey 07 October, 2019, 09:43:56 AM
Yeah I liked it but wasn't bowled over. The more I think about it the more it feels like quite a shallow film elevated by an amazing lead performance and an exceptional score, a lot of the time those elements are giving it a weight and gravitas that it otherwise perhaps wouldn't deserve.

I'm a bit uncomfortable with the depiction of mental health. The film doesn't seem to know whether it wants to help the audience sympathize with people with mental troubles who might fall through the cracks of the system, or whether it just wants to further stigmatize the mentally ill as crazed gunmen in waiting. Judging by the way the US media are reporting on the film it appears it's (perhaps unwittingly) doing a better job of the latter (a lot of those news outlets seem desperate for tragedy to strike at one of the screenings just so their hysterical angle on it can be justified).

There's also one moment that really hits one of my pet peeve nerves, the over-explaining of a twist. The romantic storyline always feels odd and as if it's not on the level, so when she finds him on the couch all we need is her reaction for the penny to drop. The film then does a very heavy-handed 'and now for the slow people in the room...' flashback sequence to bash you over the head with something you've realized already. Always bothers me when a film does that, and I think if it was the serious movie it really aims to be it would have had more respect for the audience's intelligence there.

For all that stuff that I don't like I definitely don't think it was a bad film - I was gripped throughout, because that performance and that music do such an incredible job of the heavy lifting that I was drawn in completely. It's got some really fantastic moments too, and as much as it spells out some things it shouldn't have, it does have quite an air of ambiguity about its ending (in talking to my wife after the movie we decided the closing asylum scene can be taken in a number of ways, and in one reading throws the whole events of the film into question).

It's only as the movie has settled in my head a bit that the niggles have grown and the things I was unsure about have grown a bit and it's become clearer to me why I wasn't as blown away as I wanted to be. I might need to give it another watch to know how I really feel about it, and that in itself is a pretty interesting thing to be saying about a DC movie at this point.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Hawkmumbler 08 October, 2019, 04:03:26 PM
Keef has pretty much my shared sentiments.

Twas fine, appropriately flawed, easily best Warner/DC movie since Batman Begins (controversial take I know), it most certainly isn't the second coming it will inevitably be held up as, but entertaining none the less.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Link Prime 11 October, 2019, 01:26:07 PM
Having no Twitter feed, Facebook feed or penchant for agenda driven websites I happily sidestepped 90% of the pearl clutching nonsense and marketing hype for the film (the fact it won the Golden Lion at the Venice Film Festival was difficult to ignore though).

The verdict; It was a really good film, but fell just short of superb in my estimation.
It goes without saying that Phoenix gave the expected career staple performance, but the supporting cast were no slouches either. Frances Conroy and Zazie Beetz and even good ol' Bob DeNiro - adding richly to every scene they were in. 
Even minor roles were perfectly cast. I don't think I've ever wanted a fictional character to make it out the door as much as I did Gary the dwarf.

The sleazy early 80's portrayal of Gotham city was pitch perfect too - grimier than even the sets from The Deuce. I loved that.

Overall a 9/10 for me, one point deducted for the inevitability of the lean-ish story.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Frank 11 October, 2019, 06:07:16 PM
... Phoenix gave the expected career staple performance

He's done a Depp/Downey Jr. Decades spent building up credibility and goodwill doing oddball roles in small indie films then cash in your chips with a showy turn in a corporate behemoth.

It'll be interesting to see whether he handles it like the former or the latter.


: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Hawkmumbler 11 October, 2019, 06:10:10 PM
Phoenix has been a, A-Lister for awhile now Frank. Her, The Sisters Brothers, The Master, Gladiator....
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Frank 11 October, 2019, 06:32:13 PM
Phoenix has been a, A-Lister for awhile now Frank. Her, The Sisters Brothers, The Master, Gladiator....

Cheers, mate. My mistake.


: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: GrudgeJohnDeed 12 October, 2019, 12:21:04 AM
It's not perfect but I really enjoyed it.

I am the one of the people who didn't feel like Gotham had been portrayed quite enough as ready to pop before it did go crazy though. Government underfunding and muggings just didn't sew ideas of a powder keg in my head. That's any forgotten industrial town in blighty :D

I feel like the movie stopped short of showing him become the evil, insane criminal mastermind I think of him as. Perhaps they could've done more to foreshadow that too, as it's still a little hard for me to imagine him being that guy, cunning and alpha, running a gang. I'd love a sequel that explores the new Arthur!


I swear Phoenix actively trained his muscles to impinge the shoulders that badly, it's that crazy.

Also, Gary Glitter?! That was a surprise! It suits Joker I guess..
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: radiator 12 October, 2019, 03:30:59 AM
Agree with the point above - I felt that the civil unrest in Gotham hadn't nearly been foreshadowed enough for the sudden turn of events later in the film to really make sense. One of those things you just have to go along with.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Frank 12 October, 2019, 11:04:14 AM
"I don’t see them. I tried, you know? But that’s not cinema,” Scorsese told Empire magazine about the Marvel movies. “Honestly, the closest I can think of them, as well made as they are, with actors doing the best they can under the circumstances, is theme parks. It isn’t the cinema of human beings trying to convey emotional, psychological experiences to another human being.”

Roger Murdock (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/kareem-abdul-jabbar-scorsese-wasn-t-wrong-marvel-he-wasn-t-right-1247063) weighs in with an unusually thoughtful and well-argued piece for someone who once fought Bruce Lee:


Director Martin Scorsese’s claim to Empire magazine that Marvel films aren’t “cinema” is like saying the novel Fifty Shades of Grey isn’t “literature.” He’s technically wrong — but he’s culturally right.

And all the outraged defenders of Marvel films know he’s right. I include myself among Marvel’s defenders as both an enthusiastic fan and recent Marvel comics author. I’ve seen the entire Marvel Comic Universe pantheon multiple times. Guardians of the Galaxy and Thor: Ragnarok are two of the most addictive movies ever made. If I’m channel surfing and even catch a glimpse of them, I’m riveted.

At the same time, several of Scorsese’s films (Taxi Driver, Goodfellas) are among my all-time favorites for their emotional power and thematic depth.

I’m aware that the international popularity of Marvel films makes them very influential in positively adjusting social attitudes about race, gender and sexual orientation. Every time I see Black Panther, I feel a rising swell of pride because we finally have a popular black superhero and he’s not just powerful, but also kind and compassionate. Captain Marvel, Black Widow and Wonder Woman (DC) are definite improvements from Barbie as role models for young girls. But influence, even for the betterment of society, isn’t the issue.

Scorsese wasn’t denigrating Marvel films so much as making a distinction between High Art (an accurate but cringe-worthy term) that we might see in a museum or featured on NPR, and regular everyday art that we might see on our T-shirts and tattoos.

Scorsese is stating the obvious: Rembrandt’s "The Storm on the Sea of Galilee" is not on the same level as Coolidge’s "Dogs Playing Poker," no matter how much those dogs make us smile. Nor will Peter Benchley’s novel Jaws ever match the magnificence of Herman Melville’s Moby-Dick, despite selling millions more copies. Captain America will never be James Baldwin.

It’s an important distinction to make because wrapped up in our vision of High Art are the cultural ideals, moral values, and social vision that defines who we are and who we want to be. Our best art reflects our highest aspirations as well as our flawed approach in obtaining those aspirations. The angels of our reach, the devils of our grasp.

High school makes many of us resistant to definitions of High Art. We are forced to read poems, plays and novels we don’t understand and then are told there are “hidden meanings” that we’re just not smart enough to see. We feel dumb if we can’t figure out that Robert Frost’s poem “Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening” isn’t about stopping to appreciate a wintery wonderland, but about contemplating suicide. What the hell! Why should we have to work so hard just to read a poem or story?

Here’s why: High Art is basic training for teaching us to be more observant and insightful in our personal lives. People don’t always do or say directly what they mean, so sometimes we have to interpret their actions and words to avoid being manipulated. We learn through unreliable narrators the excuses and justifications people make to hinder their own happiness.

When we see them doing it, we can often recognize it in others — and ourselves. Great art heightens our ability to see more by widening our perspective on the world until those meanings are no longer hidden, but obvious. Popular art may thrill us, entertain us and bring us joy, but it rarely furthers our insights or understanding of ourselves or illuminates our path to greater happiness. They are shiny artifacts of our culture, but they don’t define who we are.

Celebrated British novelist and screenwriter Graham Greene (The End of the Affair) divided his fiction between “entertainments” and “novels,” with the latter being his serious art. He was making the distinction between melodrama (entertainment) and drama (art): Melodrama emphasizes plot over character, while drama (or cinema for Scorsese) emphasizes character over plot.

While it’s true that there is much great entertainment within the melodramatic genres of mysteries, thrillers, romances, science fiction and so on, most are just straightforward stories with the main intent of exciting the readers’ emotions: fear, joy, love, hate, etc. The “ride” must be as exciting as possible. Once you’re finished with the work, your memories will be of those exciting moments within the story. Which is why Scorsese sees Marvel films as “theme parks.”

Drama, however, focuses on how the main characters are changed — or not changed — by the events in the story. It asks us to examine those emotions so that we understand what they say about us. Sometimes writers are able to elevate a melodramatic genre into High Art, as Graham Greene did with the thriller film The Third Man, Francis Ford Coppola did with the gangster genre in The Godfather, Stanley Kubrick did with the sci-fi genre in 2001: A Space Odyssey and Robert Towne did with the detective genre in Chinatown.

And Joss Whedon’s Serenity, though not part of the MCU is within Scorsese’s intent, is a remarkably nuanced and thematically sophisticated film about defining good and evil and how our misperceptions can unwittingly further evil while destroying good. Deep stuff for a movie with rocket ships, laser guns and Nathan Fillion’s perfect hair.

Scorsese admitted that he’s never seen a Marvel movie all the way through and I feel sorry for him that he hasn’t experienced the sheer joy, humor and excitement of these films. That he didn’t see Robert Downey Jr.’s touching death scene as Iron Man or Tom Holland’s infectious wonderment at becoming Spider-Man or the delightful banter of Hulk and Thor. Marvel films have made me laugh, cry, jump, agonize and almost always leave the theater feeling lighter and more satisfied than when I went in. And that’s not nothing. But it’s also not everything. With Marvel melodrama we feel better. With High Art, we are wiser.

THR columnist Kareem Abdul Jabbar is an NBA Hall of Famer, the author of Mycroft and Sherlock Holmes: The Empty Birdcage and one of the writers of Marvel #1000, a special comic book commemorating the company’s 80th anniversary.



: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: GrudgeJohnDeed 12 October, 2019, 07:41:50 PM
I hate the concept of a high art/low art distinction, it's very snooty and just doesn't exist for me.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Funt Solo 12 October, 2019, 08:09:17 PM
It exists for me.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/419j%2B%2B8uOJL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51sdQjVc1ZL.jpg)
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: GrudgeJohnDeed 12 October, 2019, 08:13:32 PM
haha I retract my statement. :D
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Frank 12 October, 2019, 08:49:25 PM
I hate the concept of a high art/low art distinction, it's very snooty and just doesn't exist for me.

I think that's mostly just the emotive choice of terminology and the value structure they imply.

If Kareem Abdul Jabbar* had opted for terms like affective and inductive storytelling, nobody would dispute that some films emphasise plot and eliciting an emotional and/or visceral response more than others.

Those are the films that dominate cinema (https://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/chart/?yr=2019&p=.htm), which was Scorsese's point. Netflix (https://youtu.be/WHXxVmeGQUc) is where his kind of films live, now

Joker (https://youtu.be/CD69-zWsJs4)'s done seven-times budget in a week, so even if Phoenix refuses to reprise the role some credible thesp's doomed to promote Jok3r at Comicon 2022, swearing they're excited to play opposite Finn Wolfhard's Batman.


* I can't believe I'm typing that
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: JOE SOAP 12 October, 2019, 09:15:22 PM
The idea that Marvel films are not 'cinema' is the issue some have with the sentiment. Cinema's origins are rooted in populist entertainment – films that were very rudimentary and centred around the basic thrill of the illusion but looked down upon by the literati as not being 'art'.

It was later film practitioners and their critics films who elevated it to café society but the basic entertainment aspect of cinema does not go away and it's no less of a theme-park ride than it was when Martin Scorsese was a nipper watching Epics, Westerns and B-movies which, as a practioner and critic himself, he now eulogises.







: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Frank 12 October, 2019, 09:33:18 PM
The idea that Marvel films are not 'cinema' is the issue some have with the sentiment. Cinema's origins are rooted in populist entertainment – films that were very rudimentary and centred around the basic thrill of the illusion but looked down upon by the literati as not being 'art'.

It was later film practitioners and their critics films who elevated it to café society but the basic entertainment aspect of cinema does not go away and it's no less of a theme-park ride than it was when Martin Scorsese was a nipper watching Epics, Westerns and B-movies which, as a practioner and critic himself, he now eulogises.

Regret posting that Scorsese quote. This board is no place for old men who think everything was better when they were young.


: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: GrudgeJohnDeed 12 October, 2019, 09:33:42 PM
Of course we're all free to criticise art, have storytelling we like and storytelling we don't, but trying to sort all things into a category of high art and low art is something else entirely. It does just feel pompous and exclusionary, and ultimately has no positive aspect to me.

I can understand someone's frustration at the homogeneity of the cinema that is successful at the moment, absolutely, but to say it's low art in Kareem's case or 'not cinema' in Scorsese's is just a bit stuck-up to me. Scorsese is a legend and I still love him, of course. Kareem was in Airplane so he's awesome too.

: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: JOE SOAP 12 October, 2019, 09:41:29 PM
Regret posting that Scorsese quote. This board is no place for old men who think everything was better when they were young.

And some of it didn't even exist (Texas City/MC-1 Civil War).

I'm just waiting for Spielberg to take the Netflix ruble.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Frank 12 October, 2019, 09:50:51 PM
... to say it's low art in Kareem's case

As he makes clear, Kareem loves Marvel movies. He says he pities Scorsese for never experiencing them.

Like I say, I think your problem is with the terms he adopts*


* I'm not sure I like them either - specifically, the binary opposition they imply. But I don't think anyone would seriously argue with the definitions he provides - just the (apparent) linguistic privileging of one over the other. As KAJ says in his brilliant piece, the very best films - his examples are The Third Man, The Godfather, 2001 and Chinatown - are a mixture of both.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: JOE SOAP 13 October, 2019, 06:38:42 AM
GROUCH (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqpak5lFxvs)

: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Robin Low 13 October, 2019, 10:01:48 AM
Roger Murdock (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/kareem-abdul-jabbar-scorsese-wasn-t-wrong-marvel-he-wasn-t-right-1247063) weighs in with an unusually thoughtful and well-argued piece for someone who once fought Bruce Lee:

<SNIP>

Celebrated British novelist and screenwriter Graham Greene (The End of the Affair) divided his fiction between “entertainments” and “novels,” with the latter being his serious art. He was making the distinction between melodrama (entertainment) and drama (art): Melodrama emphasizes plot over character, while drama (or cinema for Scorsese) emphasizes character over plot.

This argument all falls apart, of course, when one notes Marvel movies are their characters, not their plots.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who didn't think Goodfella's would have been massively improved by Batman bursting through the ceiling and kicking the shit out of everyone, then tying them up and leaving little greeting cards with bat symbols on them tucked into the ropes.

Regards,

Robin
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: TordelBack 13 October, 2019, 11:17:16 AM
I'm just waiting for Spielberg to take the Netflix ruble.

I do hope it happens. It ain't cinema, but the bottomless coffers and seemingly endless space that Netflix provides have so much potential for the (low) artist. Lately I find myself fantasising that they hand their mega-expensive Second Age Middle Earth project to Louis Leterrier and the Jim Henson Company. I'm doing it right now. Mmmmm nice.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Tiplodocus 13 October, 2019, 03:59:19 PM
It exists for me.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/419j%2B%2B8uOJL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51sdQjVc1ZL.jpg)

But which is which?
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: karlos 16 October, 2019, 08:45:04 AM
Caught Crispin Glover's thoughts on it all - very interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qWdoHBmTJM

: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Frank 16 October, 2019, 10:12:02 AM
Caught Crispin Glover's thoughts on it all - very interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qWdoHBmTJM

I haven't seen all of the Marvel movies, but it seems difficult to argue that Thor: Ragnarok, for example, is legitimising US foreign policy*

Glover, presumably, has the Avengers movies in mind, which provide an easy analogue for the last 80 years of calamitous and often self-defeating interventionism.

But then you have Cap 2: ARE WE THE BADDIES? and Tony Stark 3's prescient observation that we were all hatin' on a trust fund fantasist wanking to CD-ROM porn in a cave while the real threat to democracy came from tech bros in Northern California** 


* Although Professor Bear could do so easily. Anything that depicts superior strength as conferring moral superiority is problematic, I suppose. But that's quite vague and applies to everything except Woody Allen movies, which have problems of their own.

** At the time, I thought Guy Pearce's ugly nerd who gives himself a makeover and becomes a preening, hate-fueled narcissist obsessed with literal and metaphorical power was just a generic villain. Then I read about Elon Musk (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/pAt5OVl0mnA/maxresdefault.jpg).
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: CalHab 16 October, 2019, 12:02:52 PM
Roger Murdock (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/kareem-abdul-jabbar-scorsese-wasn-t-wrong-marvel-he-wasn-t-right-1247063) weighs in with an unusually thoughtful and well-argued piece for someone who once fought Bruce Lee:

<SNIP>

Celebrated British novelist and screenwriter Graham Greene (The End of the Affair) divided his fiction between “entertainments” and “novels,” with the latter being his serious art. He was making the distinction between melodrama (entertainment) and drama (art): Melodrama emphasizes plot over character, while drama (or cinema for Scorsese) emphasizes character over plot.

This argument all falls apart, of course, when one notes Marvel movies are their characters, not their plots.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who didn't think Goodfella's would have been massively improved by Batman bursting through the ceiling and kicking the shit out of everyone, then tying them up and leaving little greeting cards with bat symbols on them tucked into the ropes.

Regards,

Robin

Absolutely! Gangs of New York would be immeasurably improved by having the Mike Mignola Victorian Batman as well.

Yours sincerely,

Alfred Pennyworth
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Robin Low 16 October, 2019, 08:36:04 PM
I'm sure I'm not the only person who didn't think Goodfella's would have been massively improved by Batman bursting through the ceiling and kicking the shit out of everyone, then tying them up and leaving little greeting cards with bat symbols on them tucked into the ropes.

Regards,

Robin

Absolutely! Gangs of New York would be immeasurably improved by having the Mike Mignola Victorian Batman as well.

Yours sincerely,

Alfred Pennyworth

America was born in the streets... shaking in deep shock... dying for no reason at all...

Yes, I'd pay money to see that... and surely there already is a Gangs of Gotham story out there somewhere.

Regards,

Robin
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: radiator 16 October, 2019, 11:13:28 PM
It struck me the other day just how much the theatrical poster for Joker looks like a Jock painting. Anyone know if he had a hand in it's design?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71jKxPAMFbL._AC_SL1500_.jpg)
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Frank 20 October, 2019, 07:44:43 PM

Frank Coppola misinterprets the meaning of #MeToo and joins Scorsese's bandwagon: Old Man Shouts At Clown (https://www.indiewire.com/2019/10/francis-ford-coppola-marvel-1202183238/)

Mr Dracula doesn't have anything new to add, but discussion of his remarks reminded me of the 2013 speech their mate, Steve (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/steven-spielberg-predicts-implosion-film-567604) - one of the two guys most responsible for the blockbuster model of film making - gave talking about exactly this increased specialisation in theatrical distribution.

Forgetting any arguments about virtue, snobbery, or high art, it's difficult to compare these two (US) charts and deny the marked difference in subject matter, genre and the variety of both. I don't think anyone can argue with Scorsese's point that theatres are now trading almost exclusively in spectacle:


(https://i.imgur.com/mYmzCyq.png?1) (https://i.imgur.com/tWSg7Wz.png?2)
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: JOE SOAP 20 October, 2019, 08:15:14 PM
Unlike his grumpy mates, Spielberg wants to do a comic film.

https://variety.com/2018/film/news/steven-spielberg-blackhawk-dc-1202756319/

: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Frank 20 October, 2019, 08:28:09 PM
Unlike his grumpy mates, Spielberg wants to do a comic film.

https://variety.com/2018/film/news/steven-spielberg-blackhawk-dc-1202756319/

As Kevin Smith, promoting the new Jay & Silent Bob (https://youtu.be/l5UJu1BAy8U) joint, points out, Scorsese's made his superhero (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/kevin-smith-defends-marvel-movies-says-scorsese-made-biggest-superhero-movie-ever-1247630) movie.


: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: JOE SOAP 20 October, 2019, 08:34:41 PM
Unlike his grumpy mates, Spielberg wants to do a comic film.

https://variety.com/2018/film/news/steven-spielberg-blackhawk-dc-1202756319/

As Kevin Smith, promoting the new Jay & Silent Bob (https://youtu.be/l5UJu1BAy8U) joint, points out, Scorsese's made his superhero (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/kevin-smith-defends-marvel-movies-says-scorsese-made-biggest-superhero-movie-ever-1247630) movie.


Kevin Smith in his role as peace mediator for Hollywood.

: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: JayzusB.Christ 28 October, 2019, 09:46:46 PM
Finally watched Joker, and I have to say I loved it.  There are definitely plot holes, but I found his descent into psychopathy believable  - I was wondering at near the end how all of Gotham's gangs would be dancing to his tune, but when it did happen - in a very literal way - it completely made sense.

Obviously there are the oft-mentioned riffs on Taxi Driver and King of Comedy (but hey, it's not like they did it behind Bobby D's back), but there's also a healthy dose of Norman Bates in the mix.  I'm not particularly invested in Batman continuity so I can live with the fact that all of Gotham knows the J-Dog's true identity, he will be a geriatric when Batman gets properly into the swing of things, Thomas Wayne is old and a bit of a dick, and the Wayne killer is wearing a clown mask; and I really love the fact that Batman is born at the exact moment the Joker is.

I wonder how Jack Nicholson feels about such amazing actors making his then-definitive turn as the Joker seem so redundant? A quick watch of Suicide Squad should cheer him up.

P.S. And just to prove the Joker is cooler than you, he was into the KLF before they even existed.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: JOE SOAP 28 October, 2019, 09:56:51 PM
P.S. And just to prove the Joker is cooler than you, he was into the KLF before they even existed.

And KLF are cooler than the Joker: they burnt a pile of money years ago.

: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: JayzusB.Christ 28 October, 2019, 10:09:13 PM
P.S. And just to prove the Joker is cooler than you, he was into the KLF before they even existed.

And KLF are cooler than the Joker: they burnt a pile of money years ago.



 :o
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: JayzusB.Christ 29 October, 2019, 10:10:21 PM
... and only now do I discover that he's not dancing to the KLF at all, but a Gary fucking Glitter song that the KLF sampled in their successful experiment to cynically create a guaranteed number 1 hit.  I'd always assumed they made that bit up.
: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: Frank 29 October, 2019, 10:40:29 PM
... and only now do I discover that he's not dancing to the KLF at all, but a Gary fucking Glitter song

Although Gadd won't profit from the song's use in the film or even increased sales and streaming, since he sold all rights to his back catalogue weeks before he was outed as a paediatrician (https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/music/story/2019-10-11/joker-gary-glitter-rock-and-roll-part-2).

He may still get something from the song's regular use at US sporting events (https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/8533216/joker-gary-glitter-sync-profit-copyright-pedophile).


: Re: Scorsese makes Joker movie - or The Death of Culture
: JayzusB.Christ 30 October, 2019, 06:51:55 AM
... and only now do I discover that he's not dancing to the KLF at all, but a Gary fucking Glitter song

Although Gadd won't profit from the song's use in the film or even increased sales and streaming, since he sold all rights to his back catalogue weeks before he was outed as a paediatrician (https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/music/story/2019-10-11/joker-gary-glitter-rock-and-roll-part-2).


Glad to hear it.  He'll be lucky to get out before he dies anyway.