2000 AD Online Forum

General Chat => Film & TV => Topic started by: Jim_Campbell on 10 October, 2017, 06:53:24 pm

Title: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 10 October, 2017, 06:53:24 pm
Thought, per comments on the GRIM RUMOURS thread, that we could do with a more appropriately-titled thread!

Not seen Ep4 yet (the wife's away for a week due to work and it's more than my life's worth to watch it without her…) but I'm really enjoying it.

Spoilers are fair game from here on in. Have at it. I'll be back on Friday, when I've seen Ep4!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JamesC on 10 October, 2017, 10:20:25 pm
I think it's ace. I'm enjoying the design of the Discovery more every time I see it.
Episode 4 was good and offered some more surprises. I wasn't expecting the spore beast to be so integral to the plot (and neither was that silly cow security woman - I was well glad when she got mauled). Now the spore beast is ill though. Poor spore beast.
I'm still expecting Michael to mutiny against this crew at some point, probably destroying the spore tech in the process. I'm preparing to have my expectations confounded though.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JOE SOAP on 11 October, 2017, 02:43:02 am
They just nipple clipped a Third Stage Guild Navigator.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JamesC on 11 October, 2017, 06:27:54 am
I suppose you could see the spores as being something like melange. Never thought of that.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 11 October, 2017, 09:08:20 am
Glad it wasn't just me thinking Dune.  But there are much worse things to think of.   

So there was lots of good stuff in Episode 4, but there was also a big drop in the novelty factor.  If this is going to be just incremental steps in the Michael Burnham Story I'm going to get bored.  I'd definitely prefer a more ensemble-based approach, give other crew-members the spotlight, rather than just quick turns orbiting Michael's manifest destiny.  Bargain Basement Alan Tudyk had his spin this week, but it was all just playing off Michael and Lorca: I want to see a Saru-centric episode, one with whats-that-on-her-face Keyla, and that rather cool Doctor.  But thank goodness that awful Security Chief got chomped before I had to learn more about what the hell her problem was. 

But maybe we'll get to that, now that the spore drive has had its workout (and continuity-damaging concerns aside, I rather liked all of that spinning and zipping about).  And I did warm to Michael more this week, with her Federation scientist hippy side coming to the fore, rather than her wannabe-green-blooded ultra-pragmatism.

Main gripe: sweet Surak's scrotum, am I sick of subtitled Klingon dialogue now. It's not so much the reading, it's the haughing and clicking of a made-up language for 10 minute stretches.  We get it, bunch of bald lads shouting 'remain Klingon', now turn on the universal translator.   

Mudd next week I believe, fingers crossed for that one.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Magnetica on 11 October, 2017, 09:55:33 am
Main gripe: am I sick of subtitled Klingon dialogue now. It's not so much the reading, it's the haughing and clicking of a made-up language for 10 minute stretches.  We get it, bunch of bald lads shouting 'remain Klingon', now turn on the universal translator.   

Yes me too. I am used to reading subtitles so that's not an issue, rather it is the language itself. It seems to have a completely different feel to it than before - it's a lot softer than it ought to be in my opinion. Plus I can't help wonder if the writers are just putting random sounds in, or have they actually invented Klingon vocabulary and grammar ( and yes I know you can get a Klingon dictionary etc, but as  said this sounds different to what we have seen before)?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 11 October, 2017, 10:02:56 am
Try subtitles on Netflix as it perfect on all languages including Klingon
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 11 October, 2017, 10:30:59 am
5 whole posts before someone starts complaining - it's definitely a Trek thread, but now I don't know why we left the Grim Rumors thread.

I watch roughly 5 episodes of fansubbed Japanese tv each week, and even I was bored of the Klingon subtitle scenes.
Also: this heavily damaged ship is just sitting there uncloaked inside Federation space for six months with no backup while the crew munch on dead people?  And Starfleet doesn't scuttle its ships in wartime?
And it's a personal gripe, but I hate seeing "bio-technology" in sci-fi, as it is basically one big hand-waving exercise and it would be quicker and more honest to just call it Plot Magic.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: IAMTHESYSTEM on 11 October, 2017, 10:47:19 am
I 'm gonna wait till its available on download but thankfully all the rumours appear to be just that and Trek is back with a bang. Wahoo! 
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: von Boom on 11 October, 2017, 02:23:01 pm
They just nipple clipped a Third Stage Guild Navigator.

Yeah, this struck me as well. The spice spores must flow!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 11 October, 2017, 03:10:38 pm
Also: this heavily damaged ship is just sitting there uncloaked inside Federation space for six months with no backup while the crew munch on dead people?  And Starfleet doesn't scuttle its ships in wartime?

One might point at the Stargazer for (subsequent) precedent, abandoned at the battle of Maxia, merely presumed destroyed by her cowardly crew. Maybe the Federation territory around Binary Stars was lost/undefendable early on in the 6 month period?  Anyhoo, maybe this spock-up is where the doctrine of self-destructing/scuttling abandoned Starfleet ships originates from (I don't recall if NX-01 did much self-destructing).

As to the bio-tech = magic thing, well it's no worse than transporters.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: von Boom on 11 October, 2017, 04:13:46 pm
I have a notion that it isn't actually the spores that connect the universe, but they grow/collect where the connections take place, so Ripper would naturally know the paths of where it's primary foodstuff is located, migrating as the spores grow and diminish, thus its mind is a neural map of these paths.

The thing is that Ripper should only 'know' a small portion of the map so Discovery is going to need more Rippers to travel further and further.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 11 October, 2017, 05:28:02 pm
Well it is Star Trek...
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 11 October, 2017, 05:37:40 pm
5 whole posts before someone starts complaining - it's definitely a Trek thread, but now I don't know why we left the Grim Rumors thread.

I watch roughly 5 episodes of fansubbed Japanese tv each week, and even I was bored of the Klingon subtitle scenes.
Also: this heavily damaged ship is just sitting there uncloaked inside Federation space for six months with no backup while the crew munch on dead people?  And Starfleet doesn't scuttle its ships in wartime?
And it's a personal gripe, but I hate seeing "bio-technology" in sci-fi, as it is basically one big hand-waving exercise and it would be quicker and more honest to just call it Plot Magic.

Yeah, the whole floating-for-six-months thing bugged me a bit (have the Klingons just assumed not just T'Kuvma but everyone else on his ship are dead?) but I'm assuming the Federation hadn't returned because surely this is technically Klingon territory now...?
Some other things:
- Seems pretty clear Voq and L'Rell are going to have to start from scratch with T'Kuvma's work. Klingons seem to be carrying on just fine warring without him. Being Klingons, don't they just need any old excuse to start a scrap, the 23rd century equivalent of "are you looking at my bird?"?
- Taking bets Voq is going to be transformed into a human courtesy of L'Rell's answer to what he has to sacrifice?
- Is there something wrong with me that I'm finding L'Rell kinda weird-alien hot? Sorry. Had the same problem with one of the Klingon sisters in Next Gen.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 11 October, 2017, 05:43:54 pm
Glad it wasn't just me thinking Dune.  But there are much worse things to think of.   

So there was lots of good stuff in Episode 4, but there was also a big drop in the novelty factor.  If this is going to be just incremental steps in the Michael Burnham Story I'm going to get bored.  I'd definitely prefer a more ensemble-based approach, give other crew-members the spotlight, rather than just quick turns orbiting Michael's manifest destiny.  Bargain Basement Alan Tudyk had his spin this week, but it was all just playing off Michael and Lorca: I want to see a Saru-centric episode, one with whats-that-on-her-face Keyla, and that rather cool Doctor.  But thank goodness that awful Security Chief got chomped before I had to learn more about what the hell her problem was. 

But maybe we'll get to that, now that the spore drive has had its workout (and continuity-damaging concerns aside, I rather liked all of that spinning and zipping about).  And I did warm to Michael more this week, with her Federation scientist hippy side coming to the fore, rather than her wannabe-green-blooded ultra-pragmatism.

Main gripe: sweet Surak's scrotum, am I sick of subtitled Klingon dialogue now. It's not so much the reading, it's the haughing and clicking of a made-up language for 10 minute stretches.  We get it, bunch of bald lads shouting 'remain Klingon', now turn on the universal translator.   

Mudd next week I believe, fingers crossed for that one.

Apparently episode 8 will be Saru-centric.

Not worried at all about the spore-drive and canon continuity. It's already being made so clear that logistically and ethically, there are real problems with it. (Seriously, what happens if this thing dies when they're behind Klingon lines...?) There's going to be a good reason why this ship isn't mentioned or remembered. Plus, it's top secret. Even with rescuing the miners, Discovery didn't hang around to do a "Captain's Log". In and out. No witnesses. Kirk and Spock may not even know this ship ever existed.

Landry may have been the stupidest crew member to ever grace a starship. Good lord. Good riddance. Waste of a good actress.

Finally, I think I'm the only person on the planet enjoying the Klingon subtitle stuff. Sorry. It's all my fault.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 11 October, 2017, 06:39:53 pm
Plus, it's top secret.

AKA Black Alert. So it classified.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 11 October, 2017, 11:00:18 pm
I do get that, honest.  I also appreciate that the show can't - and shouldn't be - constrained by 50 years of established guff. That would be disastrous, and besides no Trek movie, series, season or individual episode has ever felt obliged to do so.  There are episodes of Voyager where characters assert the complete impossibility of things that actually happened to them just the episode before.  (I watched an episode just tonight where the Doctor and Janeway discuss her hypothetical reaction to the supposedly unlikely scenario of Harry Kim meeting an alien girl, falling in love and wanting to leave the ship... an event that had occurred in the previous season).

It's just... even if turns out to have inescapable unworkable side effects (which it will), you'd think the existence of instantaneous spore-based travel might have come up again independently in a society of scientists and frequently desperate explorers, and the dozens of alien races and rivals we've encountered, over the subsequent 100+ years the various shows have covered. 

Instead of just being discovered once by Stamets and his pal, and then hushed up.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 11 October, 2017, 11:17:08 pm
I do get that, honest.  I also appreciate that the show can't - and shouldn't be - constrained by 50 years of established guff. That would be disastrous, and besides no Trek movie, series, season or individual episode has ever felt obliged to do so.  There are episodes of Voyager where characters assert the complete impossibility of things that actually happened to them just the episode before.  (I watched an episode just tonight where the Doctor and Janeway discuss her hypothetical reaction to the supposedly unlikely scenario of Harry Kim meeting an alien girl, falling in love and wanting to leave the ship... an event that had occurred in the previous season).

It's just... even if turns out to have inescapable unworkable side effects (which it will), you'd think the existence of instantaneous spore-based travel might have come up again independently in a society of scientists and frequently desperate explorers, and the dozens of alien races and rivals we've encountered, over the subsequent 100+ years the various shows have covered. 

Instead of just being discovered once by Stamets and his pal, and then hushed up.

I guess the easiest cop-out answer on my part is perhaps it has come up, just not on the Enterprise, Enterprise-A, Enterprise-D, DS9 or Voyager.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 13 October, 2017, 01:41:00 pm
I think I've figured out why I'm not enjoying this very much. It's a bit of an arsey reason, though, which is disappointing.

It's because it's about war.

The original Trek was all about hope for the future - in the midst of the Cold War we're given a Russian as a trusted bridge officer, in the midst of racism and sex inequality we're given a black woman as a trusted bridge officer. It was fantastic in ways that are just standard today, in ways that we can't fully appreciate.

This new series has none of that - it's all about looking good, being clever  and shooting aliens.

There's enough real war in the world these days, I don't want it in my Star Trek as well.

(Yes, DS9 did war too, but that was in a time before the world fell into insanity.)

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 13 October, 2017, 03:47:13 pm
Sharky, the original series and TNG (and DS9 more specifically) dealt with war every second episode. Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Dominion, Borg, etc. Star Trek has always reflected the times it lived in. This is no different.

Maybe you just don't like this show. There doesn't always have to be a reason.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 13 October, 2017, 04:18:53 pm
This new series has none of that - it's all about looking good, being clever  and shooting aliens.

You're not the only genuine trekkie of my acquaintance I've heard expressing dislike (or even disgust) for the series, and there's no reason that someone who likes Next Generation has to instantly glom onto this very different beast.  I personally don't rate DS9 as highly as most seem to, precisely because I could never get behind the idea of Starfleet on a war footing.

HOWEVER, you're wrong about the series lacking the elements you cite. The interesting bits for me sp far have been the tension between Starfleet SOP as we understand it, and the extreme actions that Burnham initially and Lorca subsequently are prepared to undertake to defeat the existential threat posed by an effectively medieval ideology, itself a response to perceived acculturation.  That science, co-operation, empathy and all that good Federation stuff still seems to trump the blindly aggressive victory-at-any-cost attitude seems to me to be as pertinent and optimistic a theme as ST has ever had.

At a slightly more meta- level, we kicked off with two non-white women as our captain and commander, and still have a broadly 50/50 M/F crew supporting a very central female POC lead - that's no small matter, even in 2017.

Plus: explosions! Spaceships!  Aliens!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 13 October, 2017, 04:26:59 pm
The focus, though, was more about avoiding war and finding other ways to settle disputes. Sure, there were shooty episodes in all series but Discovery seems to be all about war from the get go.

Yes, the ethnicity and sex of the characters are diverse - probably moreso than any other iteration - but in this day and age that's no so cutting edge.

There are many things I do like about what I've seen so far but I just find it disappointing. If I want to watch wars amongst the stars I'd watch Star Wars - I expect more from Star Trek.

I told you it was an arsey reason! :D

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 13 October, 2017, 06:31:05 pm
Orville - because I'm going to derail this thread too - covered this very topic this week.  With the creature designs for their own Klingon-types being quite close to Discovery's, it was hard not to think of it as a potshot, even though with USTV production schedules being what they are, I know it probably wasn't.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 13 October, 2017, 06:39:56 pm
The focus, though, was more about avoiding war and finding other ways to settle disputes. Sure, there were shooty episodes in all series but Discovery seems to be all about war from the get go.

Yes, the ethnicity and sex of the characters are diverse - probably moreso than any other iteration - but in this day and age that's no so cutting edge.

There are many things I do like about what I've seen so far but I just find it disappointing. If I want to watch wars amongst the stars I'd watch Star Wars - I expect more from Star Trek.

I told you it was an arsey reason! :D

Well, it is all about war. That's the whole point of the show. Exploring what it's like when these non-aggressive characters are actually put to the ultimate test and thrust into the middle of a war without it all being wrapped up neatly in 44 minutes with a nice, haughty moral at the end. It's an attempt to do something different with the template (and honestly, I don't see that much difference in tone from DS9's war arc. This one just looks less cheesy because they're throwing in $8 mil per episode.) Honestly, space battles and war were dime-a-dozen on the earlier shows, particularly TOS, but they didn't have the fx budget to show us how that would have looked. Like TB, I think you're missing the grey areas between the black-and-white that the show is very clearly showing us but look, if it's not working for you, it's not working for you. That's okay too. There's plenty of other TV to watch.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 13 October, 2017, 06:46:57 pm
Orville - because I'm going to derail this thread too - covered this very topic this week.  With the creature designs for their own Klingon-types being quite close to Discovery's, it was hard not to think of it as a potshot, even though with USTV production schedules being what they are, I know it probably wasn't.

I doubt CBS gives two shits what Orville is doing at this point...
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 13 October, 2017, 07:21:02 pm
I'm not trying to convince anybody, just explaining why I, personally, find this series disappointing so far.

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 13 October, 2017, 07:26:04 pm
Well, I enjoy it, and it's the Star Trek!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: von Boom on 13 October, 2017, 08:03:29 pm
Orville - because I'm going to derail this thread too - covered this very topic this week.  With the creature designs for their own Klingon-types being quite close to Discovery's, it was hard not to think of it as a potshot, even though with USTV production schedules being what they are, I know it probably wasn't.

I doubt CBS gives two shits what Orville is doing at this point...

Nor Fox.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JOE SOAP on 13 October, 2017, 08:32:01 pm
For the first time in my life I'm regularly watching Star Trek, so it must be doing something wrong.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 13 October, 2017, 10:53:45 pm
As has been noted, the first Trek reboot movie did great and brought in many new fans.  Who promptly fucked off by the third one.

Orville - because I'm going to derail this thread too - covered this very topic this week.  With the creature designs for their own Klingon-types being quite close to Discovery's, it was hard not to think of it as a potshot, even though with USTV production schedules being what they are, I know it probably wasn't.

I doubt CBS gives two shits what Orville is doing at this point...

Nor Fox.

That's where you're wrong - Fox will be taking careful note of when to cancel it.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 13 October, 2017, 11:14:35 pm
As has been noted, the first Trek reboot movie did great and brought in many new fans.  Who promptly fucked off by the third one.

Orville - because I'm going to derail this thread too - covered this very topic this week.  With the creature designs for their own Klingon-types being quite close to Discovery's, it was hard not to think of it as a potshot, even though with USTV production schedules being what they are, I know it probably wasn't.

I doubt CBS gives two shits what Orville is doing at this point...

Nor Fox.

That's where you're wrong - Fox will be taking careful note of when to cancel it.

Ratings are stabilizing around the 1.0. Three million viewers, give or take. Hard to tell what happens next. Can't see it doing much better than that. Hard to see a second season with those ratings.

Have to be honest, I do not get this show. I've been a good boy, I've watched every episode so far thinking maybe something will click, I'm seeing people who's opinions I trust say they like it and I'm just not seeing it. Last night's was supposed to be the best one yet and I found it utter fucking torture to finish.

And yes, I realize there's an Orville thread but it only has six comments. Unless it's getting compared to STD (unfairly for both shows...), no-one wants to talk about it.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 13 October, 2017, 11:25:36 pm
*whose opinions I trust. Sorry. Realized I've been mixing up my who's and whose lately.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 14 October, 2017, 02:14:01 am
Fair play to you for sticking with a show you don't like and giving it a fair chance even when you get disappointed by it every week.
I dunno about the latest being "the best", but it was definitely the episode that benefited most from lowered expectations.  The forced and largely unfunny banter between characters made the sudden swing to mass murder more of a turn-up than if it was an entirely straight-faced show, and I didn't even mind that the plot hinged on aliens installing deadly death lamps in their ships instead of light bulbs.  Aliens might do that.  Who am I to judge?

Quote
There's an Orville thread but it only has six comments. Unless it's getting compared to STD (unfairly for both shows...), no-one wants to talk about it.

The Orville thread is Tips asking where he can watch it legally.  What was to be said about the show itself was pretty much already said in the Grim Rumors thread.  And now here.

I actually followed a bunch of random YT Trek channels like Trekyards, Crimson Sin, Major Grin, Irish Trekkie etc to keep up with the weekly STD chatter, and they all seem to have regular Orville round tables/review vids now.  Most of them are well over comparing the shows or picking sides, too, though there's always Midnight's Edge if you fancy your chatter a bit more partisan, or The Dave Cullen Show if you want your Trek reviews from a right wing headcase conservative.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JOE SOAP on 14 October, 2017, 03:30:54 am
or The Dave Cullen Show if you want your Trek reviews from a right wing headcase conservative.

–puke–

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 14 October, 2017, 06:12:15 am
Fair play to you for sticking with a show you don't like and giving it a fair chance even when you get disappointed by it every week.
I dunno about the latest being "the best", but it was definitely the episode that benefited most from lowered expectations.  The forced and largely unfunny banter between characters made the sudden swing to mass murder more of a turn-up than if it was an entirely straight-faced show, and I didn't even mind that the plot hinged on aliens installing deadly death lamps in their ships instead of light bulbs.  Aliens might do that.  Who am I to judge?

Quote
There's an Orville thread but it only has six comments. Unless it's getting compared to STD (unfairly for both shows...), no-one wants to talk about it.

The Orville thread is Tips asking where he can watch it legally.  What was to be said about the show itself was pretty much already said in the Grim Rumors thread.  And now here.

I actually followed a bunch of random YT Trek channels like Trekyards, Crimson Sin, Major Grin, Irish Trekkie etc to keep up with the weekly STD chatter, and they all seem to have regular Orville round tables/review vids now.  Most of them are well over comparing the shows or picking sides, too, though there's always Midnight's Edge if you fancy your chatter a bit more partisan, or The Dave Cullen Show if you want your Trek reviews from a right wing headcase conservative.

Well, I know most of the main heads at Orville fairly well from Family Guy. They're all good people so I wish I felt better about it. David Goodman actually worked on Enterprise and I know Seth's enthusiasm for Trek (particularly TNG) is the real deal. Just wish the show was more solid. I get what they're trying to do, just don't think they're pulling it off successfully.

In other news, the Trek Yards lads are something.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 14 October, 2017, 06:28:27 am
In other news, 86 year old Shatner still wants in:
https://trekmovie.com/2017/10/13/william-shatner-thinks-there-is-still-an-interesting-story-to-tell-with-him-as-kirk-in-star-trek/
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 14 October, 2017, 08:57:31 am
Thought, per comments on the GRIM RUMOURS thread, that we could do with a more appropriately-titled thread!

(Also, I thought it would be nice to talk about the show without endless diversions into discussions about The Sodding Orville, but plainly not…)
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 14 October, 2017, 10:27:07 am
In other news, the Trek Yards lads are something.

Forget it, Jake.  It's a Youtube channel.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 14 October, 2017, 02:25:09 pm
Thought, per comments on the GRIM RUMOURS thread, that we could do with a more appropriately-titled thread!

(Also, I thought it would be nice to talk about the show without endless diversions into discussions about The Sodding Orville, but plainly not…)

I agree. Sorry. My bad. No more Orville. It's dead, Jim. Promise.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 14 October, 2017, 02:33:30 pm
I agree. Sorry. My bad. No more Orville. It's dead, Jim. Promise.

No apologies needed. I was just tetchy this morning. Sorry!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 14 October, 2017, 02:35:02 pm
For the first time in my life I'm regularly watching Star Trek, so it must be doing something wrong.
Two episodes in and THIS is my sentiments exactly. Resoundingly solid sci-fi indeed.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 16 October, 2017, 09:23:09 pm
So a great episode this week, not least because it showed that the show can sucessfully have a non-Michael focus, and that the various crewmembers have more going on than just background colour. Assume new pretty boy will be oyr new security chief? Also a nice bit of Mudd that bodes well for the future.

However, two completely gratuitous "f*cking"s make me wonder who this show is aimed at. Am I the only person watching this with young kids? Isn't Star Trek a family show anymore?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 16 October, 2017, 09:42:01 pm
ZAP PEW STAR TREK NOT JUST FOR KIDS ANY MORE
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 16 October, 2017, 09:44:42 pm
So a great episode this week, not least because it showed that the show can sucessfully have a non-Michael focus, and that the various crewmembers have more going on than just background colour. Assume new pretty boy will be oyr new security chief? Also a nice bit of Mudd that bodes well for the future.

However, two completely gratuitous "f*cking"s make me wonder who this show is aimed at. Am I the only person watching this with young kids? Isn't Star Trek a family show anymore?

The f-bomb was a little shocking but it was so playful, I'd find it hard to get offended. Can't imagine we're going to be hearing it too often. (Was it worse than Starfleet officers being gutted with bayonets and Klingon women having half their faces melted off? Or worse still, according to the internets: The Klingon D7 cruiser didn't look like the one from TOS...)

Yep. Best one yet. Show’s finding its groove now, gathering strength every week. Have to confess, grew so fatigued by technobabble on TNG and VOY over the years but really enjoyed Tilly, Burnham and Stamets doing their take on it last night.

I loved Wilson as Mudd. He fit the part without any issues for me. Wasn’t much of a stretch to envision him as the same character. I think anyone doing a rewatch of Mudd’s Women would see there’s nothing terribly whimsical about the character in that one.

Burnham and Saru’s exchange at the end, Saru’s attempt to find common values between the greatest Starfleet captains as reference for himself, the ethical debate (and drama arising from) regarding the tardigrade and its subsequent release were all perfect Trek. The show’s too dark? Nonsense. Someone may have turned the lighting down but the show’s spirit is aligned towards hopeful solutions.

Acting’s top-shelf in this one. Doug Jones in particular gets to shine but Isaacs is so, so great. You can tell he’s having a lot of fun. io9 were bitching this morning about him leaving Mudd behind on the Klingon cruiser means Star Trek's lost its soul but that's not true at all. Lorca's lost his soul. Seeing now how deep his wounds go.

If I’ve some minor nitpicks…? The plotting’s still a bit clunky. It’s an issue with a lot of episodic TV. Game of Thrones suffered a lot this season with this – the feeling of characters being moved around to service the plot like chess pieces rather than characters making decisions themselves to push the plot forward.

I wish we could get some nice money shots of some of these ships. Everything moves around so fast, it’s hard to get a sense of what they look like.

These are minor compared to the positive aspects though. Show’s warping now. So happy it seems to be in good hands. More, please!!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 16 October, 2017, 09:49:58 pm
Anyone notice the list of Captains include Jonathan Archer and Christopher Pike!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: von Boom on 16 October, 2017, 10:03:26 pm
I wasn't offended by the f-bomb, but it came across like a 4 year old saying to show how grown up they are. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Magnetica on 16 October, 2017, 10:06:14 pm
Anyone notice the list of Captains include Jonathan Archer and Christopher Pike!

Yes.

I guess Pike just about works with the timeline.

Not sure Mudd does though - he looked too old compared to what he should be in TOS.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 16 October, 2017, 10:12:29 pm
And we got Robert April on that list too, from TAS, and Matt Decker from The Doomsday Machine, father of Will Decker from TMP.

 Nice work. Really nice work.

Thought that the whole thing with freeing the tardigrade was great.

And D9 is probably a broad Starfleet category rather than a specific class - old Trek RPG material used to say it referred to the number of decks, IIRC. Much like the movies' and TNG's 'Bird of Prey' referred to half a dozen ships of different size.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tiplodocus on 16 October, 2017, 11:43:53 pm
Really liked that. Better ensemble feel. And playful is exactly the way to describe the swearing. It was an f-tickle rather than an f-bomb.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Banners on 17 October, 2017, 12:14:03 am
Pretty livid about the F-word. Really disappointing. Trump, Brexit – Star Trek represents and allows a brief sojourn into utopia. I don't want it to reflect the real world, I want it to project the future, the brilliant potential of the human race.

Another thing I can't enjoy. Thanks for that.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JamesC on 17 October, 2017, 06:29:28 am
I really enjoyed that episode. I thought Mudd was great and I'm quite intrigued by what the Klingon lady is up to. What was the deal with her having the hots for human men?
I wasn't really bothered by the swearing, just a bit disappointed. It's 2 words in about 5 hours worth of TV so far though - no need to over react.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 17 October, 2017, 07:06:37 am
I tend to agree with Banners on this, it doesn't fit with what Trek should be: I still cringe at Data's "oh shit" in the woeful Genetations. It moves the show into a different viewing category, entirely unnecesarily.

Other than that, two thumbs up, which is what makes it stick out.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 17 October, 2017, 07:21:35 am
Ugh, lurching bus spelling, apologies.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JamesC on 17 October, 2017, 08:46:48 am
I tend to agree with Banners on this, it doesn't fit with what Trek should be: I still cringe at Data's "oh shit" in the woeful Genetations. It moves the show into a different viewing category, entirely unnecesarily.

Other than that, two thumbs up, which is what makes it stick out.

Yeah, I do agree with you. I'm just determined not to let it ruin something that I'm enjoying so much otherwise. There are so many positive things to say about this show and I'd rather concentrate on those.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Mardroid on 17 October, 2017, 09:12:57 am
I really enjoyed that episode. I thought Mudd was great and I'm quite intrigued by what the Klingon lady is up to. What was the deal with her having the hots for human men?


Actually, in other Star Trek series klingon women are renowned for a bit of... sexual experimentation. Particularly shocking considering its kinda rape in this instance (assuming the guy didn't intentionally attempt to seduce her to find a way of escape, which is possible, I guess).

Quote
I wasn't really bothered by the swearing, just a bit disappointed. It's 2 words in about 5 hours worth of TV so far though - no need to over react.

I agree. That language has no place in Star Trek although  it was kinda amusing and cute coming out of her mouth. But I won't get hung up over it, and I enjoyed this episode just fine.

Much as I like the klingon ship designs I'm not keen on them as klingon ships and wish they'd stick with the traditional style. The larger ships, not so much. They're different but mostly fit the overall shapes we know. Those little raider things from this episode look like something from another race entirely, however.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 17 October, 2017, 09:29:16 am
In Voyager B'Elanna's mother is Klingon, her father human; Worf's main squeeze K'Ehleyr had a human mother and a Klingon father, both loving relationships (at least initially), so despite incorrect numbers of organs (I choose to believe this refers to a Klingon's secondary backup spinal cord!) and human fragility, it happens.

Obviously the context in Discovery is distinctly unpleasant, and may have more to do with power than actual attraction.

I really liked the Klingon starfighters, BTW.  There were never enough fighters in Trek, even the Jem H'adar ones looked bulky and sluggish.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JamesC on 17 October, 2017, 10:19:07 am
The fighters really reminded me of the Nova fighters from Guardians of the Galaxy. I didn't mind the overall shape of the fighters but wasn't keen on the big bubble canopy. Klingon ships always seem so dark and claustrophobic and I thought the fighter cockpit should have a similar feel.

I really liked the scenes featuring the Admiral. Her no nonsense relationship with Lorca was great and I hope we see more scenes between the two of them.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 17 October, 2017, 12:46:39 pm
If that Starfleet chap isn't a spy it would be more of a surprise.  I did like when the Klingon lady gets shot in the face with a gun that makes an armored soldier turn into red paste seconds earlier and she only gets a bit of a burn - Kylo Ren ain't got nuffink on that.
The production design was pretty garish, tho.  A lot of ugly sets and ship designs with no clear unifying themes apart from grime and high saturation.  I appreciate that it's attempting to differentiate from the Ikea organic pastels of TNG, but this is starting to feel like overcompensation (see also: the f-bombs and cannibalism).
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 17 October, 2017, 02:02:34 pm
If that Starfleet chap isn't a spy it would be more of a surprise.

Oooh yeah.  My money's on him replacing Lt. Looney Tunes, the unmourned Security Chief.

I did like when the Klingon lady gets shot in the face with a gun that makes an armored soldier turn into red paste seconds earlier and she only gets a bit of a burn ....

Wasn't it just collateral damage from a near miss? A hit on her plot armour, maybe?  Did like those disruptors in action though, and the fact that the Klingons spoke Engrish for once. Nail polish on yer wan's armour was a bit much, maybe, but in general I thought the Klingon interiors were in line with what we've seen before, and thus distinct from T'Kumva's Trump Towers.  All the Starfleet interiors seem pretty sweet to me, bit too much going on in the corridors, but far less outright visual pollution than the Abrams Enterprise.

But I would be happier if the adolescent unpleasantness was dialed back. It's not big and it's not clever.

Also on my wish list, some focus on the Ops officer (or is it still Navigation in this era?).  She has the coolest of cool haircuts. 
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: von Boom on 17 October, 2017, 02:17:03 pm
We're a third way through the series now and I have a feeling that with the introduction of characters like Harry Mudd and this new fellow that characters we think we'd like to learn more about are going to be nothing more than place holders.

I want to know more about that semi-robotic commander myself.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 17 October, 2017, 02:29:13 pm
Don't we all!  But given that we have already got Michael, Saru, Lorca, Tilly, Stamets, the painfully handsome Dr Culber (who isn't actually the CMO, I thought I noticed this week?), sort-of Keyla and now this dodgy Tyler (?) fellow (as well as three principal Klingons, Harry Mudd, Sarek and the Admiral), that's nearly as many regular crewmembers as any of the shows had. 

Anyone else is likely to be relegated to wallpaper roles, but you never know.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: von Boom on 17 October, 2017, 02:37:46 pm
Airiam. The semi-robot is called Airiam. That's something at least.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 17 October, 2017, 02:44:57 pm
Excellent sleuthing there, that name leads us to Memory Alpha (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Airiam) where it becomes clear that no-one has a flipping clue what she is. Good looking actor under all the prostheses, though.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 17 October, 2017, 03:05:12 pm
I miss the robot faced dude from the pilot whose head would flash the words "RED ALERT" on his face during an emergency.  Whatever species he is, clearly they think a work/life balance is for pussies.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tjm86 on 17 October, 2017, 03:29:04 pm
Probably gone into teaching then!   ::)
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 17 October, 2017, 03:39:08 pm
I miss the robot faced dude from the pilot whose head would flash the words "RED ALERT" on his face during an emergency. 

That was all kinds of wonderful - was very much hoping he/she/it/them had lived to bleep another day.

Probably gone into teaching then!   ::)

Ha!  I can just see that faceplate lighting up with "The bell is a signal for me, not for you".
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 17 October, 2017, 03:50:09 pm
She is Ensign Daphne Punk (Must be in honour of Daft Punk)

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/298/462/a7a.jpg)
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 17 October, 2017, 04:09:27 pm
Excellent, cheers Goaty!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: von Boom on 17 October, 2017, 04:11:08 pm
Now that is some excellent sleuthing Goaty.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: von Boom on 17 October, 2017, 04:16:35 pm
When Saru had the computer list the bravest captains in Starfleet history Cptn. Robert April was top of the list. This means they've incorporated TAS as canon. I have only one question.

Where are the Kzinti?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 17 October, 2017, 04:52:27 pm
Probably enjoying the protection of Larry Niven's lawyers!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 17 October, 2017, 05:25:18 pm
Dear Star Trek,

I have loved you since first I laid eyes on you. We have walked hand in hand through countless dreams and boundless imaginings, you have seeped into my heart and into my soul and, through your joyous optimism and faith in Right, made me a better person.

But now, though you look more beautiful than ever, you haven't put on these stunning new clothes for me.

You're breaking my f*cking heart.

Goodbye, my love, goodbye.

TLS.

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 17 October, 2017, 05:25:55 pm
Yes we got your message last week that you don’t like it.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 17 October, 2017, 05:45:29 pm
Apologies. I thought this was the internet.

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 17 October, 2017, 06:00:30 pm
Dear Star Trek,

I have loved you since first I laid eyes on you. We have walked hand in hand through countless dreams and boundless imaginings, you have seeped into my heart and into my soul and, through your joyous optimism and faith in Right, made me a better person.

But now, though you look more beautiful than ever, you haven't put on these stunning new clothes for me.

You're breaking my f*cking heart.

Goodbye, my love, goodbye.

TLS.

This'll be your last comment in here then? We get it. You don't like it. You can move along now. Good lord. Melodrama over a TV show.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 17 October, 2017, 06:05:09 pm
I think a bona-fide Trekkie like the Shark should be able to express ongoing disappointment. It's not like ST series don't change as they go along.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 17 October, 2017, 06:11:24 pm
I think a bona-fide Trekkie like the Shark should be able to express ongoing disappointment. It's not like ST series don't change as they go along.

Only if Shatner himself gets to enact Sharky's last post aloud...
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 17 October, 2017, 06:12:00 pm
No, Blackmocco, I don't think I'll be posting on this thread any more as I will, for the first time ever, be giving up on a Trek series. This might not mean anything to you, but it is really painful for me. But, you know, you keep on posting your opinion every week because it's obviously more valid than mine.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 17 October, 2017, 06:18:05 pm
No, Blackmocco, I don't think I'll be posting on this thread any more as I will, for the first time ever, be giving up on a Trek series. This might not mean anything to you, but it is really painful for me. But, you know, you keep on posting your opinion every week because it's obviously more valid than mine.

Oh give over. No-one minds criticism of the show being posted in here, Sharky. I'm all for discussing it with you. Just thought your last post was a bit OTT, is all.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 17 October, 2017, 06:56:46 pm
Fair enough.

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: von Boom on 17 October, 2017, 07:04:52 pm
No, Blackmocco, I don't think I'll be posting on this thread any more as I will, for the first time ever, be giving up on a Trek series. This might not mean anything to you, but it is really painful for me. But, you know, you keep on posting your opinion every week because it's obviously more valid than mine.

I feel your pain Sharky, I've been watching Star Trek my entire life. After that last episode I'm very concerned about the direction the show is taking. But Star Trek is about hope and I'm hopeful they can turn it around before the end.

You aren't alone in giving up on Trek, but do keep your ears open, it might change before the end.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 17 October, 2017, 07:15:03 pm
Great episode, enjoy it as Klingon Prison ship was nice, and brutal fights, Harry Mudd was perfect added, and not trust that new guy, Taylor?!

No-one here mention about that final image with mirror that freaked me out!

I would really love to see Discovery moving around, not Warp or Spore jump, everything went BSG jumps!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 17 October, 2017, 08:06:17 pm
I have to say it;this was the first episode where the bad outweighted the good.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Eamonn Clarke on 17 October, 2017, 09:48:59 pm
Well I think it’s drokking fraking smeging frelling gorram awesome!

Ahem.  :-[.
I think it’s all rather, jolly good. What, what?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JOE SOAP on 18 October, 2017, 04:18:10 am
Shark is our Tardigrade – set him loose among the shroom-ways of space.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: auxlen on 18 October, 2017, 10:51:25 am
where they the first trek f bombs?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 18 October, 2017, 10:55:30 am
Very much so.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 18 October, 2017, 12:27:35 pm
Sort of disappointed that it's not just me, Von Boom (sometimes, it's good to be wrong)... Hopefully it will get better but, if it doesn't, at the very least there seem to be enough people enjoying it to keep the franchise alive. Maybe the next series will be better!

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 18 October, 2017, 01:51:32 pm
IDK,Im giving it a few more episode to see where it will go,but the whole thing feels soulless,for the lack of a better word.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tjm86 on 18 October, 2017, 06:23:03 pm
I've been enjoying it so far, such as it is.  For me, Star Trek has always been something enjoyable to watch but it has always had flaws.  As with all series, it is still trying to find its inner core, so I'm willing to give it time.

But ....

... and I want to be incredibly careful here because I appreciate that I'm about to tread on sensitive territory.  The scene with the Doctor Kulber and Stamets had me cringing.  I couldn't quite put my finger on what it was about it that bothered me.  I get that they are in a relationship but something about that moment set me off. 

Then it clicked, it just seemed so 'twee' for want of a better word.  Now I'm quite happy to be set straight on this but did the relationship have to be portrayed in that manner?  It almost came across to me as a caricature.  The doctor's concern and irritation at Stamet's decision could just as easily have been portrayed as normal officerly concern and their relationship still made clear without representing him the way it seemed to to me.  No?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 18 October, 2017, 06:40:52 pm
I thought that scene was awkward. It's like someone wanted to show how tolerant the Federation is. I have this vision of some executive saying, "Make the saucer bit spin 'round, that'll look cool, and let's have some gays in there as well, that'll look cool too. And somebody get me a bagel!"
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 18 October, 2017, 06:44:04 pm
Deal with it, it is 23rd Century...
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 18 October, 2017, 06:48:31 pm
I have nothing whatsoever against the inclusion of gay characters - it just seemed to be a gimmick rather than proper character development.

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 18 October, 2017, 06:57:18 pm
It almost came across to me as a caricature.  The doctor's concern and irritation at Stamet's decision could just as easily have been portrayed as normal officerly concern and their relationship still made clear without representing him the way it seemed to to me.  No?

If the scene had been with Keiko and O'Brien, would you have asked the same question?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 18 October, 2017, 07:00:55 pm
Keiko wasn't a Starfleet officer, she was (will be) a civilian botanist.

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JamesC on 18 October, 2017, 07:02:09 pm
Deal with it, it is 23rd Century...

You'd think they'd have cured it by then.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 18 October, 2017, 07:02:41 pm
What been bothering me is that Lorca is kind of a dick.I know its Harry Mudd,but leaving him behind still comes off as a dick move.Or at least something a Starfleet Captain wouldnt do.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 18 October, 2017, 07:04:46 pm
Keiko wasn't a Starfleet officer, she was (will be) a civilian botanist.

That's not an answer.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 18 October, 2017, 07:07:43 pm
Well, pardon me all over the place.

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JamesC on 18 October, 2017, 07:08:17 pm
What been bothering me is that Lorca is kind of a dick.I know its Harry Mudd,but leaving him behind still comes off as a dick move.Or at least something a Starfleet Captain wouldnt do.

But Lorca is totally supposed to come across that way. It can bother you in that you don't see it as becoming of a Starfleet Captain but I don't think it's a fault with the script.
The Discovery has been established as a top secret vessel of war so taking civilians on board is presumably a big no-no.
I guess Lorca still submits a log so the rough location and description on the Klingon prison ship will have been recorded. Maybe another Starfleet ship will be sent to intercept.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tjm86 on 18 October, 2017, 07:09:32 pm

If the scene had been with Keiko and O'Brien, would you have asked the same question?

You know what, I'm not sure.  Maybe this is part of what bothered me about this.  In terms of Keiko and O'Brien, one of the partners is a civvy so arguably it might have been in character.  I guess what I'm saying is for me it did the characters a bit of a disservice. 
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 18 October, 2017, 07:12:12 pm

If the scene had been with Keiko and O'Brien, would you have asked the same question?

You know what, I'm not sure.  Maybe this is part of what bothered me about this.  In terms of Keiko and O'Brien, one of the partners is a civvy so arguably it might have been in character.  I guess what I'm saying is for me it did the characters a bit of a disservice.

They were both off-duty but to take your point, let's try this again: Worf and Dax. Would you ask the same question?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tjm86 on 18 October, 2017, 07:21:51 pm
True, this is why I am a bit conflicted in this regard.  Would a heterosexual couple acting in the same way have had the same affect on me?  I'd already figured out Stamets' orientation from his interaction with his old research partner so it wasn't much of a revelation.  Am I being unfair to the characterisation here?  Maybe.  As I say, it just jarred a little.  Sorry.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 18 October, 2017, 07:23:52 pm
Worf and Dax enjoyed a long and developing relationship - this was just, bam! There was no build up (unless I missed it).

Sorry. I know the question wasn't for me.

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 18 October, 2017, 07:28:53 pm
But Lorca is totally supposed to come across that way. It can bother you in that you don't see it as becoming of a Starfleet Captain but I don't think it's a fault with the script.

Yeah. We are clearly supposed to regard Lorca as a man whose moral compass is seriously off, leading to the question of whether we are misjudging him, or whether Burnham's willingness to buck the chain of command is going to come into play again…
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 18 October, 2017, 07:32:28 pm
True, this is why I am a bit conflicted in this regard.  Would a heterosexual couple acting in the same way have had the same affect on me?  I'd already figured out Stamets' orientation from his interaction with his old research partner so it wasn't much of a revelation.  Am I being unfair to the characterisation here?  Maybe.  As I say, it just jarred a little.  Sorry.

Well, I'm not trying to be a dick by asking. I'm just curious. The scene didn't seem much different to me from O'Brien and Keiko or Worf and Dax. I would assume (although how you'd avoid the promo material pointing out Stamets and the doctor are a gay couple) it might have been a surprise to someone out there watching.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tjm86 on 18 October, 2017, 07:34:01 pm
TBH I have actually avoided all the promo material.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 18 October, 2017, 07:35:30 pm
So did I.

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: sheridan on 18 October, 2017, 07:37:08 pm
I miss the robot faced dude from the pilot whose head would flash the words "RED ALERT" on his face during an emergency. 

I was completely expecting something more like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/iCtZy7y.gif)
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 18 October, 2017, 07:37:21 pm
Would really love to see more character of Lorca, even he did blew up his ship with crew.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 18 October, 2017, 07:38:48 pm
Worf and Dax enjoyed a long and developing relationship - this was just, bam! There was no build up (unless I missed it).

Sorry. I know the question wasn't for me.

Yeah, I deleted that part. Didn't mean it to look so snappy, Sharky. That wasn't intended.

Yeah, DS9 showed us that for sure, and at 22 episodes over multiple seasons mostly concentrating on character development, it had the time to do that. We've less episodes with this one, and it's a show less concerned with ensemble so some of this stuff has to be a little more broad strokes. Everything in the scene tells us what we need to know about them and their relationship in a condensed form without making a big song and dance about it. If the writing's a little clunky, so be it. The message is more important.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 18 October, 2017, 07:41:50 pm
But Lorca is totally supposed to come across that way. It can bother you in that you don't see it as becoming of a Starfleet Captain but I don't think it's a fault with the script.

Yeah. We are clearly supposed to regard Lorca as a man whose moral compass is seriously off, leading to the question of whether we are misjudging him, or whether Burnham's willingness to buck the chain of command is going to come into play again…
It comes into play every episode.And every episode she learns a lesson about it,but I digress...
Im not really buying that as a tough moral choice.He left a man(even if its Mudd) to be tortured and killed.Thats hard to justify.
And the whole thing about his last crew...are we suppose to care?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 18 October, 2017, 07:44:25 pm
Sorry I snapped back, Blackmocco. Very un-Trekkie of me! (Maybe Lorca's my great-great-great-grandson...)
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 18 October, 2017, 07:47:46 pm
But Lorca is totally supposed to come across that way. It can bother you in that you don't see it as becoming of a Starfleet Captain but I don't think it's a fault with the script.

Yeah. We are clearly supposed to regard Lorca as a man whose moral compass is seriously off, leading to the question of whether we are misjudging him, or whether Burnham's willingness to buck the chain of command is going to come into play again…
It comes into play every episode.And every episode she learns a lesson about it,but I digress...
Im not really buying that as a tough moral choice.He left a man(even if its Mudd) to be tortured and killed.Thats hard to justify.
And the whole thing about his last crew...are we suppose to care?

A man who would have betrayed him at every turn to save himself, though. Mudd simply couldn't be trusted. Nonetheless, I think leaving him behind makes it clear we're supposed to be a little unsettled by Lorca. He's bereft of the morals and goodwill we usually associate with someone in his position on this show. All the better to create some drama and conflict.

Plus, they could only seat two in the LEXX fighter ship...! (Tyler actually says that to Mudd as they're leaving: "This was always a two-man job!" I assume in reference to the fighters being two-seaters.)
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 18 October, 2017, 07:50:20 pm
How the hell did he know he was going to find a two-seater during his escape? :|
You ninjad that while I was writing.Yeah,not buying that either.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 18 October, 2017, 07:51:17 pm
C A P T A I N...
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 18 October, 2017, 07:51:41 pm
How the hell did he know he was going to find a two-seater during his escape? :|

Indeed. I have a feeling Tyler isn't exactly who he says he is. Could be wrong, though.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 18 October, 2017, 07:53:17 pm
How the hell did he know he was going to find a two-seater during his escape? :|

Indeed. I have a feeling Tyler isn't exactly who he says he is.
You dont say? :)
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 18 October, 2017, 08:00:22 pm
The captains we're familiar with would have put Mudd and Whatsisname on the two-man fighter and stayed behind (except that Whatsisname would have been killed before launching so the captain would have escaped anyway). Also, Lorca killing his entire previous crew and surviving seems unlikely as well. How would an officer who did that remain a captain in Starfleet? That just leaves a bad taste.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 18 October, 2017, 08:04:07 pm
Paging ABCWarbot… ABCWarbot to the homophobia subthread…
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 18 October, 2017, 08:12:21 pm
The captains we're familiar with would have put Mudd and Whatsisname on the two-man fighter and stayed behind (except that Whatsisname would have been killed before launching so the captain would have escaped anyway). Also, Lorca killing his entire previous crew and surviving seems unlikely as well. How would an officer who did that remain a captain in Starfleet? That just leaves a bad taste.

Yeah, but that's the point. We've never actually followed a starship captain in one of these shows who was anything less than noble and pure. I like we're seeing a broken man in charge for a change. It's a darker path for sure, but the rest of the crew don't share his problems, thankfully. Stamets argues with him, Saru has made clear to Burnham he doesn't approve of the way Lorca runs the ship. This is all headed to a conflict of ethics at some point and with Burnham's history of bucking command, I think it's a pretty obvious roadmap.

In saying that, yeah, it seems weird that Lorca's still in charge after that tale (if that's the true tale we heard. He may have been passing on fake info to test his fellow prisoners and their loyalty). Unless Starfleet handed over the reins to someone they knew doesn't share their ideals and ethics in oder to win the war, war being a situation they've bonked us over the head with since episode 1 that they're not familiar or comfortable with. Something doesn't quite add up there yet, but I doubt they're going to leave that just hanging there.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 18 October, 2017, 08:16:10 pm
Paging ABCWarbot… ABCWarbot to the homophobia subthread…

And this thread will be locked too.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 18 October, 2017, 08:17:28 pm
Look, if it helps just think of the Federation as The Culture, Starfleet as Contact, and Lorca as some borderline psychotic Special Circumstances asset that they wheel out when faced with an O.C.P.

As to the rest: The pilot of TOS featured a deformed old lady seducing Capt. Pike; the second episode of TNG had a horny Doctor try to seduce Picard, and Tasha making use of Data's 'multiple techniques'; the pilot of DS9 had a young doctor lusting after a 300 year old intestinal parasite.  But two blokes brushing their teeth together?  Too far!

You humans are crazy.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 18 October, 2017, 08:20:01 pm
Anyway. I might give it one more episode but that's it for me, I'm afraid. I am glad most everyone else likes it, though, and I really want to be turned around on this. Stranger things have happened.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 18 October, 2017, 08:20:14 pm
The captains we're familiar with would have put Mudd and Whatsisname on the two-man fighter and stayed behind (except that Whatsisname would have been killed before launching so the captain would have escaped anyway). Also, Lorca killing his entire previous crew and surviving seems unlikely as well. How would an officer who did that remain a captain in Starfleet? That just leaves a bad taste.
Good point.
But again,they had no way of knowing what kinda craft would they steal.If all 3 of them found then ship and then ditched Mudd,it wouldnt be that much of a problem.
I got this weird feeling this was meant to be a gritty reboot of Space Above and Beyond,but they changed it to ST during development. :|
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 18 October, 2017, 08:23:45 pm
"Space: Above and Beyond," wow - there's a blast from the past! I loved that show!

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JamesC on 18 October, 2017, 08:24:03 pm
The captains we're familiar with would have put Mudd and Whatsisname on the two-man fighter and stayed behind (except that Whatsisname would have been killed before launching so the captain would have escaped anyway). Also, Lorca killing his entire previous crew and surviving seems unlikely as well. How would an officer who did that remain a captain in Starfleet? That just leaves a bad taste.

We don't know enough details about this story to make a sound judgement.
The fact that Lorca killed the crew was his confession - we don't know that anyone in Starfleet is aware of that detail (or even if it's true. It could quite easily be a detail designed to test the new guy. If he hears that rumour at a later date he'll know the new guy isn't to be trusted).
A captain being off-ship during a dangerous situation doesn't sound too unusual.

At the moment I think very little is as it first appears.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 18 October, 2017, 08:27:34 pm
Not sure if that's such a good test, "by the way, New Guy, I murdered my entire crew and ran for it - wanna help me escape? You can trust me, honest!"

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 18 October, 2017, 08:28:10 pm
The captains we're familiar with would have put Mudd and Whatsisname on the two-man fighter and stayed behind (except that Whatsisname would have been killed before launching so the captain would have escaped anyway). Also, Lorca killing his entire previous crew and surviving seems unlikely as well. How would an officer who did that remain a captain in Starfleet? That just leaves a bad taste.

We don't know enough details about this story to make a sound judgement.
The fact that Lorca killed the crew was his confession - we don't know that anyone in Starfleet is aware of that detail (or even if it's true. It could quite easily be a detail designed to test the new guy. If he hears that rumour at a later date he'll know the new guy isn't to be trusted).
A captain being off-ship during a dangerous situation doesn't sound too unusual.

At the moment I think very little is as it first appears.

And with the story being stretched over the fifteen episodes, not all that stuff is going to be quickly resolved by the end of the given episode. It's a long game.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 18 October, 2017, 08:31:49 pm
"Space: Above and Beyond," wow - there's a blast from the past! I loved that show!
So Im not the only one who remembers that. :)
Now,I dont presume to know what Star Trek is supposed to be,but wasnt it meant to show a better humanity?So far,Im not seeing that in Discovery.Its oddly too similar to our world.
Again,Im willing to give it a few more episodes,but I cant say Im really optimistic.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 18 October, 2017, 08:34:09 pm
"Space: Above and Beyond," wow - there's a blast from the past! I loved that show!
So Im not the only one who remembers that. :)
Now,I dont presume to know what Star Trek is supposed to be,but wasnt it meant to show a better humanity?So far,Im not seeing that in Discovery.Its oddly too similar to our world.
Again,Im willing to give it a few more episodes,but I cant say Im really optimistic.

That's about how I feel about it too.

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 18 October, 2017, 08:48:03 pm
"Space: Above and Beyond," wow - there's a blast from the past! I loved that show!
So Im not the only one who remembers that. :)
Now,I dont presume to know what Star Trek is supposed to be,but wasnt it meant to show a better humanity?So far,Im not seeing that in Discovery.Its oddly too similar to our world.
Again,Im willing to give it a few more episodes,but I cant say Im really optimistic.

That's about how I feel about it too.

Trek's always been a reflection of when we're living though. I'd rather see a sci-fi show that reflects that and shows us characters who rise above those challenges than one set in a culture I have no way to relate to. If anything, that's what doomed Voyager and Enterprise for me. Everything was too neatly wrapped up. Drama had no real consequences. A culture of people serving together who have risen above arguing with each other? Who can relate to that in 2017? The world's so divided right now, nuance in a conversation is a thing of the past, people are shits to one another and we're all on a knife-edge. TOS and TNG were very idealistic, and I love those ideals (even if I was in a very different headspace and age when I first discovered those shows) but it's unfair to say this show doesn't have them. The challenges it faces may seem harsher to overcome, but most of these characters have a moral compass pointed the right way. Just like out there in the real world.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JamesC on 18 October, 2017, 08:49:32 pm
Not sure if that's such a good test, "by the way, New Guy, I murdered my entire crew and ran for it - wanna help me escape? You can trust me, honest!"

Well that was just off the top of my head, the point is, don't take everything at face value.

Besides what would the new guy's alternative have been? Stay with the Klingons?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 18 October, 2017, 09:16:21 pm
@blackmocco
Rewind that for me-you couldnt relate to people wanting to get back home?
Also,Im not buying the theory it should be realistic because that would be more realistic.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 18 October, 2017, 09:19:34 pm
Those two blokes weren't gay.
Remember when Dax kissed her goddang ex wife right there on the frigging screen because they were both in love with each other?  Trek's producers bent over backwards to assure the media that this wasn't a gay kiss Because Sci-Fi Reasons, so two chaps sharing a bathroom is not gay, Discovery, not by Trek standards.
I'm not saying we need a graphic sex scene to dispel any ambiguity - actually, yes.  Yes I am.

Anyway. I might give it one more episode but that's it for me, I'm afraid.

Then I guess we'll see your fishy ass in the Orville thread where - in the interests of consistency - I will probably be discussing Star Trek Discovery.

I have theory why Lorca left Mudd behind: he'd seen TOS and found him a really annoying character and hoped he'd die on the Klingon ship so he wouldn't be in Lorca's show anymore.  I don't blame him as - and you probably have no idea that this is the case - I really fucking hate the Harry Mudd character.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 18 October, 2017, 09:19:50 pm
I think, Blackmocco, that idealism is what sets Star Trek apart - let other shows do the grit. For me, Enterprise is still the best Trek because of the lengths to which Captain Archer goes to prevent war, not only between humans and the Xindi (with the Enterprise getting chunks ripped out of her along the way) but between the Vulcans and the Andorians as well. I find that faith in humanity (for want of a better word), despite the seeming futility of such optimism, to be deeply moving and inspirational. This, to me, is at the core of what Trek is all about - to strive for peace and a better future despite the cost, despite the pain, despite the odds because, in the end, peace is worth it. Discovery is the antithesis of Enterprise. Discovery just says, "fuck it - let's have a war." To me, that's just not Star Trek - it's a betrayal of everything Star Trek stands for. Give me a battered old NX-01 struggling to do the Right Thing over a slick, saucer-spinning NCC 1031 glibly blowing Klingons to atoms any day of the week, Sorry - there I go with the hyperbole again! :D
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 18 October, 2017, 09:31:23 pm
Lovely to see men in Starfleet pyjamas!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 18 October, 2017, 09:38:41 pm
The awesome PJs were the most striking thing about that scene.

Sharky, not questioning your right to dislike whatever the hell you want in any way whatsoever, and I do understand and sympathise with your disappointment, but a past war with the Klingons (and indeed Romulans) informs both TOS and TNG.  Many situations in both those series depend on it, not least the fervour with which characters try to avoid a repeat. 

Exploring how the Federation reacted to, conducted themselves in and survived that war seems like a valid thing to do.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 18 October, 2017, 09:48:54 pm
I understand that, Tordels, I really do and I also concede that as a valid part of Trek history it's fair game for stories. There's just so much real war and misery in the world at the moment that I just don't want any more. It would have been far more interesting (to me) if this series had been set at the end of the Klingon war - with a battle-weary, damaged crew taking part in a final few battles and then getting back to the business of exploration and progress, putting Starfleet, the Federation and themselves back together.

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: von Boom on 18 October, 2017, 09:52:53 pm
I understand that, Tordels, I really do and I also concede that as a valid part of Trek history it's fair game for stories. There's just so much real war and misery in the world at the moment that I just don't want any more. It would have been far more interesting (to me) if this series had been set at the end of the Klingon war - with a battle-weary, damaged crew taking part in a final few battles and then getting back to the business of exploration and progress, putting Starfleet, the Federation and themselves back together.

(https://i.imgur.com/7qXcLkc.gif)
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 18 October, 2017, 10:00:05 pm
FWIW Sharky, I would prefer to watch that series too.  But I doubt it would get made in 2017, when there's already hundreds of hours of more or less that available on Netflix for us old farts to watch for the umpteenth time, and there's zombie dragons fighting incestuous royals and drugged-up unshaven superheroes bonking on the other channel.

This is what 2017 Trek looks like, and I'll extract what optimism is there, and take what I can get.

But I do get a bit miffed at being told off (not here) for objecting to unnecessary 'fucking's on a show I watch with 8 year old Trekkie daughter.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 18 October, 2017, 10:04:38 pm
Heh - I'm going to take that as a small win and shut up now.

I'm really sorry to be so negative, everyone.

LLaP.

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 18 October, 2017, 10:13:53 pm
@blackmocco
Rewind that for me-you couldnt relate to people wanting to get back home?
Also,Im not buying the theory it should be realistic because that would be more realistic.

Of course I could relate to that. But I couldn't ever relate to the characters in that situation as they were presented. It wasn't satisfying as drama. Two fiercely rival factions stranded together in the middle of nowhere and by the end of the first ninety minutes, everyone's one big happy co-operating crew. Seemingly insurmountable problems are solved too easily. I get the idea that these are more evolved humans (supposedly), but when you remove the flaws and the canvas to create real character drama, your storytelling becomes boring and stale. Ron Moore knew this. He wanted to fuck Voyager up (and he should have been let do that) but instead went off and did it with BSG, the counterpoint to what Trek was doing at the time. Darker? Certainly, but a far more effective launchpoint to take on subject matter.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 18 October, 2017, 10:23:10 pm
I find that faith in humanity (for want of a better word), despite the seeming futility of such optimism, to be deeply moving and inspirational. This, to me, is at the core of what Trek is all about - to strive for peace and a better future despite the cost, despite the pain, despite the odds because, in the end, peace is worth it. Discovery is the antithesis of Enterprise. Discovery just says, "fuck it - let's have a war." To me, that's just not Star Trek - it's a betrayal of everything Star Trek stands for. Give me a battered old NX-01 struggling to do the Right Thing over a slick, saucer-spinning NCC 1031 glibly blowing Klingons to atoms any day of the week, Sorry - there I go with the hyperbole again! :D

Ehh, I think you're missing out. This show is far more nuanced. They've set the show during a war to come full circle to all the ideals you're talking about. It can't arrive fully formed. Don't you want to see how humanity got to that point? TOS always made a huge deal about humanity striving to be better than they can be. That's where later Trek incarnations went wrong (we'll have to agree to disagree about Enterprise) for me. If we're not going to see that growth towards something better, it's just boring being handed all these perfect, flawless characters from a culture that has already reached its pinnacle. Who really believes we're going to end up living like that? There's nothing to latch on to anymore. We've seen where this universe is going to go, but I'm more than happy to see how they get there. It's the journey, not the destination I'm interested in...
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 18 October, 2017, 10:31:06 pm
Moore's friendship with Voyager producer Brannon Braga broke down because of that argument over Voyager's direction - and then Star Trek went and did all the things Moore insisted that Voyager should have done in Enterprise's third season anyway, and did so with Brannon Braga's name still on it.  Make of that what you will.

Further to the whole "definately a spy" discussion, NEERRRRRDS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG31n6rN_tE).

If we're not going to see that growth towards something better, it's just boring being handed all these perfect, flawless characters from a culture that has already reached its pinnacle.

This is the same reasoning applied by Zack Snyder to why Superman had to murder Zod at the end of Man Of Steel: until he actually killed someone, how would he know he didn't like it?  Sort of like not knowing for sure if you're straight until you've kissed another man.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 18 October, 2017, 10:39:12 pm

Further to the whole "definately a spy" discussion, NEERRRRRDS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG31n6rN_tE).

If we're not going to see that growth towards something better, it's just boring being handed all these perfect, flawless characters from a culture that has already reached its pinnacle.

This is the same reasoning applied by Zack Snyder to why Superman had to murder Zod at the end of Man Of Steel: until he actually killed someone, how would he know he didn't like it?  Sort of like not knowing for sure if you're straight until you've kissed another man.

I feel dirty having the Trekyard lads and Zack Snyder's Superman all in the same post.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JOE SOAP on 18 October, 2017, 10:43:51 pm
I'll take the voyages of a Section 31/Black-Ops style Federation ship over another Bad Robot film. The potential dynamic between this crew is far more interesting – and we've all ready had a lovely story about the capture and liberation of a space-bear who's happiest when free to forage his own space-fungus.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 18 October, 2017, 10:55:03 pm
I don't think the concern is that a different story is being told in the Trek universe - Section 31 and Mirror Universe tales are staples - so much as that this might be the template for all of Trek going forward.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 19 October, 2017, 05:13:17 am
@blackmocco
Yes,Voyager had flaws.We went thru that a dozen times.
But I dont think the reasoning of "our world is shit" or "because GoT or Man of Steel" is any sort of justification here.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JamesC on 19 October, 2017, 06:33:40 am
I don't think you have to start comparisons with MoS (and I don't think this is the same as Snyder's justification of Superman's actions. That may have been valid if this was Kirk, Spock or even Pike we were talking about. Lorca's a new character captaining a secret ship we've never seen before) to understand that this series is set at a point in time before Starfleet as we know it is fully evolved.
This is the middle of a war and the writers have gone out of their way to explain that this crew is not representative of Starfleet in general.
You may not want to see the adventures of a morally corrupt captain, fighting a war with dubious methods, produced under the Star Trek brand but to argue that the story is somehow wrong or invalid seems incredibly narrow minded.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 19 October, 2017, 07:51:57 am
Not quite what I said,but whatever,this conversation is spinning in circles,and I have no energy to continue this.To each his own.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 19 October, 2017, 02:16:44 pm
@blackmocco
Yes,Voyager had flaws.We went thru that a dozen times.
But I dont think the reasoning of "our world is shit" or "because GoT or Man of Steel" is any sort of justification here.

Ugh. I didn't bring up Man of Steel. That was Prof Bear. I hate that fucking movie.

As to the point about the current state of affairs justifying STD's style and story, we can just disagree. That's okay too.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Magnetica on 20 October, 2017, 11:30:57 am
"Space: Above and Beyond," wow - there's a blast from the past! I loved that show!
So Im not the only one who remembers that. :)

I remember it is as well. My recollection is it was a good concept but it didn’t really make the most of it. The nougthies BSG was way better.

But it was starting to (unexpectedly) get really interesting right at the end, with the reveal of the alien. And then it got cancelled and so never had the chance to build on that.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 20 October, 2017, 05:19:52 pm
Yeah,it never could decide if it wants to be Vietnam War in space or WW2 in space.One episode plays out like a war comic,another hammers in that big companies have started the war to make money.You know,realistic approach.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 20 October, 2017, 05:21:16 pm
Yeah,it never could decide if it wants to be Vietnam War in space or WW2 in space.One episode plays out like a war comic,another hammers in that big companies have started the war to make money.You know,realistic approach.

We're just long overdue for a VC's TV show.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 20 October, 2017, 06:42:58 pm
No chance a mod could change the title of this thread to "Fucking surprised by…"? :-)
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 20 October, 2017, 06:49:16 pm
No chance a mod could change the title of this thread to "Fucking surprised by…"? :-)
Somebody saying fucking.Yeah,that was just childish,
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 20 October, 2017, 07:26:15 pm
Klingon guard beat the man to death, and the fucking word is the most offence? Lovely.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Magnetica on 20 October, 2017, 07:28:33 pm
Just responding to where the conversation went.

Goodness knows the board is quiet enough these days, without being bound by the actual title of the thread. :lol:
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 20 October, 2017, 07:41:22 pm
Klingon guard beat the man to death, and the fucking word is the most offence? Lovely.

Yeah, the F-bomb getting the headlines for that episode says something about our sensibilities, doesn't it? Violence and sex = okay. A playful F-bomb = utterly unacceptable.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JamesC on 20 October, 2017, 07:44:22 pm
I guess violence and sex are inevitable within Starfleet but swearing is seen as unecessary.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 20 October, 2017, 07:53:47 pm
Klingon guard beat the man to death, and the fucking word is the most offence? Lovely.
Well,Klingons killed people before.This is a new thing.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JOE SOAP on 20 October, 2017, 08:26:19 pm
Well,Klingons killed people before.This is a new thing.

Kinda

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vrm8TV7K4zo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rICFoH5P5A
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 20 October, 2017, 08:29:34 pm
Klingon guard beat the man to death, and the fucking word is the most offence? Lovely.
Well,Klingons killed people before.This is a new thing.

Also a new thing: Klingons graphically goring their victims with giant Klingon bayonets and kicking an unarmed prisoner's skull in. Yet the F-bomb makes people question whether their kids should watch the show.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 20 October, 2017, 08:34:48 pm
Yeah, the F-bomb getting the headlines for that episode says something about our sensibilities, doesn't it? Violence and sex = okay. A playful F-bomb = utterly unacceptable.

Hmmm. While I would prefer the violence and gore was toned down to family-viewing levels, Kilngons and their violent proclivities are fantasy, they don't exist and none of it actually happened, and even so their actions are clearly painted as Bad Things done by Bad Guys.  Swearing OTOH is a real thing that my kids are likely to do, that takes place between two human characters, including our cute bumbling Starfleet cadet character, and it's framed here as funny. 

You can surely see the difference, from a parental PoV. 

I love creative swearing, Deadwood is probably my favourite non-SF TV show of all time, but Star Trek is a show we have always watched as a family, just as it was tea-time viewing for me as a kid.  It definitely wouldn't have been if Bones' catchphrase had been "Fuck it Jim, I'm a Doctor, not a c*nt".  I'm sure there were more examples, but in the entire 50 years of the franchise I can recall one 'bastard' (well repeated twice) and one 'shit', and I didn't care for the latter at all.  Swearing adds realism to characters' speech patterns, but there's no need for it, and precious little precedent, in a far-future setting like Trek.

EDIT: Just watched Joe's links - forgot about the Merde!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 20 October, 2017, 08:48:42 pm
Yeah, the F-bomb getting the headlines for that episode says something about our sensibilities, doesn't it? Violence and sex = okay. A playful F-bomb = utterly unacceptable.

Hmmm. While I would prefer the violence and gore was toned down to family-viewing levels, Kilngons and their violent proclivities are fantasy, they don't exist and none of it actually happened, and even so their actions are clearly painted as Bad Things done by Bad Guys.  Swearing OTOH is a real thing that my kids are likely to do, that takes place between two human characters, including our cute bumbling Starfleet cadet character, and it's framed here as funny. 

You can surely see the difference, from a parental PoV. 

I love creative swearing, Deadwood is probably my favourite non-SF TV show of all time, but Star Trek is a show we have always watched as a family, just as it was tea-time viewing for me as a kid.  It definitely wouldn't have been if Bones' catchphrase had been "Fuck it Jim, I'm a Doctor, not a c*nt".  I'm sure there were more examples, but in the entire 50 years of the franchise I can recall one 'bastard' and one 'shit', and I didn't care for the latter at all.  Swearing adds realism to characters' speech patterns, but there's no need for it, and precious little precedent, in a far-future setting like Trek.

I get why people are jarred by the word showing up on Star Trek. Honestly, I do. I was jarred, even if I loved how it was used, but I don't think a child hearing that word is worse than being shown graphic, painful violence. I'm a grown man but I grimaced more at Lorca's pilot getting pretty graphically kabob'd and the sound of the prisoner's skull being smashed than at a naive cadet losing her cool in excitement at a scientific breakthrough. (And yes, I have a kid, lest anyone thinks I've no point of reference but as she lives in a household with an Irish father, there are probably very few colorful metaphors she hasn't heard over the years...) It's just a word in the end, and attaching all this drama to it lends it more weight than it deserves. Obviously, I wouldn't want a young child to hear it, but as I've just said, I wouldn't want a young child seeing the examples of graphic violence on Discovery either.

Discovery's on premium pay service here in the US and the lead up made it pretty clear the show was going to be presented in a more adult fashion than before. I wonder if because it's airing on Netflix over there that news wasn't properly conveyed maybe...?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 20 October, 2017, 08:49:06 pm
To be honest, the swearing doesn't really bother me (not being a parent) so long as it's done properly. I wouldn't have minded if Captain Janeway, on spotting a fleet of Borg cubes suddenly dropping into normal space and hurtling straight for Voyager had said, "oh, for fuck's sake."
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 20 October, 2017, 08:56:00 pm
From CBR's interview with Discovery's showrunners:

Does the streaming service allow you to push the envelope of what we’ve known as Star Trek content?

"The streaming service has definitely allowed us to push boundaries. We can do nudity. We can do violence that we can’t do on broadcast. We can have language."

Do you?

"For us, it has to be really carefully considered. One of the most important things that Gretchen and I have been learning since we came on the show is, just how anecdotally people come to Trek by way of their mother, their father, their older brother or their older sister. How many families watch the show, took in the show, turn it off, had a debate. It really is a property that is passed down generation to generation.

So if you’re going to do something like language, or a little nudity, or a little extra violence — which that’s one of the sad things about where we are in terms of media: violence is accepted; sexuality, maybe not so much. We’re taking great pains to make sure that nothing feels gratuitous if we’re doing it. That if language is involved, it might be language that’s celebratory.

We have a moment where three of our scientists have just pulled off the most incredible thing ever. They are talking about concepts that are so above everybody else’s head, and one of them says, “This is so fucking cool.” And she’s a cadet, and she’s catches herself, and she looks at her boss, because oh my God, she just dropped an F-bomb. And her boss, played by Anthony Rapp, turns to her and says, “You’re right, cadet — this is fucking cool.” So in a moment like that, where I feel like we’re celebrating smarts and people who are at the top of their game. It’s rare when we’ll do it, but if we do it, we want to make it feel organic."
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 20 October, 2017, 10:56:21 pm
Did I hear the False Equivalence Siren blaring?  I think I did!
Stabbing someone up and stomping people's heads in is presented as a Bad Thing.  Swearing like a trooper is presented as a good thing to the point the showrunners seem incredibly proud of it.  I don't give a toss because I'm an adult, but these things are not equivalent even if you don't have kids in the room.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 20 October, 2017, 11:33:16 pm
Succinctly put. 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that the swearing is the only problem for sharing this show (Star Trek, fercrissakes) with younger viewers, but it is an unnecessary one.  I can accept that extra gore and violence might be required to compete in a post-GoT world, but I don't think anyone was crying out for swearing.  I also think moving Trek out of a family viewing remit is a huge mistake, and note that Netflix caters for kids too - dunno about the CBS pay channel.

All the moreso because I'm really enjoying it and its many other novel aspects, and the amount of kid-free time I get in front of the box is limited to say the least.

That said, I'm just back from watching a few Discovery clips on YouTube, and by the Prophets I've seldom seen such hatred for anything as I saw in those comments - and I'm a Phantom Menace apologist - so I've decided the show must be doing something right. 
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 21 October, 2017, 12:15:36 am
You'd think the way everyone's weeping into their synthohol that Discovery's the only Trek show to ever break canon...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFq-37a7pk0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75jU8n3F9aI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnhIkX99OYw
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 21 October, 2017, 06:04:25 am
I'm not gonna say "think of the kids",they hear worst thing in school.And,no swearing doesn't bother me so much,but the whole thing was just the show yelling :  Look at us,we can say fuck now!
Also,I'm not sure what GoT has to do with anything.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tiplodocus on 21 October, 2017, 11:13:30 am
I hadn't really thought about the increased violence and swearing in a family context as we no longer have youngsters in the house. But even I was thinking the violence was a bit much for Trek.

I would love if where they are going with this is; in the face of War and the horrible things people are willing to do to each other, the federation and optimism and unity prevails. 

But somehow, I don't think this will be the case and Discovery will present our current universe in Star Trek clothes rather than a Star Trek universe.

So I'm still enjoying the show but can't definitively comment on whether it "IS" Trek until it all gets resolved.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 21 October, 2017, 12:12:04 pm
Tips hits that nail squarely. Although I am far more optimistic than I was before it started.

And I completely agree with Blackmocco about Trek canon- no two given episodes are consistent, never mind between series,
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 21 October, 2017, 12:44:38 pm
I don't think people are annoyed at the idea that Discovery messed with canon, they're annoyed that it's a prequel at all and didn't learn the very lessons linked to in those videos.  I mean, it's not like they didn't test the Trek prequel thing to destruction already - the last Trek show on tv was Enterprise, and the last episode of Enterprise - literally the last piece of Star Trek made for tv before Discovery - doubles down on wanking the canon and is widely despised as one of the worst series finales ever made.
There is an equal argument to be made that a history of bad continuity in Trek doesn't excuse Discovery's (perceived) bad decisions and failings, it just compounds them.

I can accept that extra gore and violence might be required to compete in a post-GoT world

I will assume you are not au fait with the current (mostly bad) Nicktoons iteration of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which I only dipped my toe into recently to check out some crossovers with Usagi Yojimbo and the 1987 TMNT cartoons, but what I have seen has often been brutal to a standard that rivals some mature-rated shows.  So many stabbings, and not always presented in a context that establishes that jamming a bladed weapon into someone's neck is a Bad Thing, either.
And this is a cartoon show.  For kids.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 21 October, 2017, 01:05:20 pm
Because ofc,those are the only two TMNT shows.Why do people forget the 2003 series?Middle child syndrome?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 21 October, 2017, 01:49:30 pm
Because 2003 TMNT fans are the absolute worst.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 21 October, 2017, 01:58:02 pm
I don't think people are annoyed at the idea that Discovery messed with canon, they're annoyed that it's a prequel at all and didn't learn the very lessons linked to in those videos.  I mean, it's not like they didn't test the Trek prequel thing to destruction already - the last Trek show on tv was Enterprise, and the last episode of Enterprise - literally the last piece of Star Trek made for tv before Discovery - doubles down on wanking the canon and is widely despised as one of the worst series finales ever made.
There is an equal argument to be made that a history of bad continuity in Trek doesn't excuse Discovery's (perceived) bad decisions and failings, it just compounds them.

People are pissed Discovery has messed with canon, man. Go to the first forum you find. Visually and historically. It’s the first thing angry Treknerds bring up in their crybaby rants. Their tears of rage bring me unmitigated joy.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 21 October, 2017, 02:52:12 pm
Because 2003 TMNT fans are the absolute worst.
You clearly have no idea what are you talking about.  ;)
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 21 October, 2017, 05:40:08 pm
Their tears of rage bring me unmitigated joy.

This is why we can't have nice things :D

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 23 October, 2017, 02:55:04 pm
Great news as it renewed for season 2z
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 23 October, 2017, 03:16:25 pm
Because 2003 TMNT fans are the absolute worst.
You clearly have no idea what are you talking about.  ;)

WAAAAAH WHY DONT THEY FINISH THE NINJA TRIBUNAL STORYLINE WTF IS THIS TIME TRAVEL TOY AD SHIT IT HAS JACK KIRBY IN IT OMG
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: IAMTHESYSTEM on 23 October, 2017, 03:45:10 pm
Great news as it renewed for season 2z

Yep.
http://www.denofgeek.com/uk/tv/star-trek-discovery/37600/star-trek-discovery-news
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 23 October, 2017, 04:13:18 pm
Fantastic news.  And I never thought I'd be saying that.

Although I do hope the suggested 2019 airdate doesn't kill momentum. I have enough trouble waiting forever between seasons of Better Call Saul.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tjm86 on 23 October, 2017, 04:36:24 pm
Because 2003 TMNT fans are the absolute worst.
You clearly have no idea what are you talking about.  ;)

WAAAAAH WHY DONT THEY FINISH THE NINJA TRIBUNAL STORYLINE WTF IS THIS TIME TRAVEL TOY AD SHIT IT HAS JACK KIRBY IN IT OMG

Think that's bad, have a go at X-men continuity and see what happens?  Teddy Bears, Pram, Ballistics?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 23 October, 2017, 04:43:47 pm
Because 2003 TMNT fans are the absolute worst.
You clearly have no idea what are you talking about.  ;)

WAAAAAH WHY DONT THEY FINISH THE NINJA TRIBUNAL STORYLINE WTF IS THIS TIME TRAVEL TOY AD SHIT IT HAS JACK KIRBY IN IT OMG
As soon as I translate that,you will get an answer. :)
But seriously,2003 series is an aquired taste.If you dont like it,you need to aquire some taste.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 23 October, 2017, 04:46:21 pm
Delighted with that news. Wish I could say the same about last night's episode. Oh boy. First real dud of the season so far for me. Shite from top to bottom. Some good concepts - Vulcan logic extremists! Honestly, I wish the episode had been about this. Instead it gets a few lines and bored the arse off me with everything else.

My biggest worry with the show taking Sarek and Burnham and giving them a history wasn't so much any canon violations, more the reasoning behind doing it. Is there a reason to do this other than the shout-out to TOS? Based on this, I'd say none at all. It feels like it was an idea in the writers' room and when it came to fleshing that idea out, no-one knew what to do with it. If there's a conflict between how she was raised on Vulcan vs her human nature within Burnham, the show hasn't done a good job of presenting it clearly or doing anything interesting with it. They could have dumped the Vulcan connection and still had the same character. Bit disappointed with all that.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 23 October, 2017, 05:30:40 pm
Because 2003 TMNT fans are the absolute worst.
You clearly have no idea what are you talking about.  ;)

WAAAAAH WHY DONT THEY FINISH THE NINJA TRIBUNAL STORYLINE WTF IS THIS TIME TRAVEL TOY AD SHIT IT HAS JACK KIRBY IN IT OMG
As soon as I translate that,you will get an answer. :)
But seriously,2003 series is an aquired taste.If you dont like it,you need to aquire some taste.

Mate, it's Ninja Turtles - every cartoon series is awful.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: von Boom on 23 October, 2017, 06:05:33 pm
Delighted with that news. Wish I could say the same about last night's episode. Oh boy. First real dud of the season so far for me. Shite from top to bottom. Some good concepts - Vulcan logic extremists! Honestly, I wish the episode had been about this. Instead it gets a few lines and bored the arse off me with everything else.

My biggest worry with the show taking Sarek and Burnham and giving them a history wasn't so much any canon violations, more the reasoning behind doing it. Is there a reason to do this other than the shout-out to TOS? Based on this, I'd say none at all. It feels like it was an idea in the writers' room and when it came to fleshing that idea out, no-one knew what to do with it. If there's a conflict between how she was raised on Vulcan vs her human nature within Burnham, the show hasn't done a good job of presenting it clearly or doing anything interesting with it. They could have dumped the Vulcan connection and still had the same character. Bit disappointed with all that.


Agreed. It feels like they've lost focus on the main arc of the series. An episode like this can be forgiven when you have 22 or 24 in a series, but with only 15 you can't get distracted.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 23 October, 2017, 06:08:28 pm
It was originally supposed to be 10, so they've actually got four more fillers to go.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 23 October, 2017, 06:12:11 pm
Because 2003 TMNT fans are the absolute worst.
You clearly have no idea what are you talking about.  ;)

WAAAAAH WHY DONT THEY FINISH THE NINJA TRIBUNAL STORYLINE WTF IS THIS TIME TRAVEL TOY AD SHIT IT HAS JACK KIRBY IN IT OMG
As soon as I translate that,you will get an answer. :)
But seriously,2003 series is an aquired taste.If you dont like it,you need to aquire some taste.

Mate, it's Ninja Turtles - every cartoon series is awful.
Your opinion,not a fact.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 23 October, 2017, 07:05:34 pm
This is a Ninja Turtles 2003 thread now.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: von Boom on 23 October, 2017, 07:24:07 pm
That's still more relevant than the films.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Magnetica on 23 October, 2017, 10:44:46 pm
I actually quite enjoyed this week’s episode. You are right though that Burnham’s character (so far) would be pretty much the same without the Vulcan element. Indeed so much so that I had largely forgotten she was meant to have been raised by them. However I think the same is mostly true of Spock the other way round - his human element was virtually never referred to.

Interesting developments with Lorca and the Admiral. I had pretty much suspected they were more than friends since last week. It was also obvious something nasty was going to happen to her when took over Sarek’s mission - how else was Lorca going to remain in charge of Discovery?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tiplodocus on 23 October, 2017, 10:54:03 pm
I quite liked that despite the "I guess that's what being a human is all about!" dialogue and message.

But the best bits were all to do with the main story arc; Lorca and the admiral, the Klingon grand plot and Stammets odd behaviour. 
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: DaveGYNWA on 23 October, 2017, 11:20:03 pm
Well, I've just ruined things for myself.....figured out who the new security bloke is, and now all I can think is "Yes, I can hear you, Clem Fandango"
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 24 October, 2017, 11:02:49 am
I can only hope they go somewhere with the Vulcan Extremists thing.
Now lets wait for the next episode and see if a Mark Hamill imitator can salvage something here.  :)
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Magnetica on 24 October, 2017, 11:55:16 am
The Vulcans seem to be one of the least used main alien races in Star Trek over the years. Much more use has been made of the Romulan, Klingons and (in later seasons of TNG and then DS9) the Cardassians. So it would be good to delve deeper into the Vulcan society, culture and technology.

And yes I know we had all that stuff about their emotions coming out every few years. And Spock and Sarek etc, but compared to the others I have mentioned they seem to have had far less screen time. Even compared to The Changlings, Jem Hadar, the Vorta and The Borg.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 24 October, 2017, 12:19:46 pm
I was about to argue that 9 of the movies, TOS, Voyager and particularly Enterprise had a Vulcan (or half Vulcan!) in almost every scene, but actually you're probably right: in comparison to Klingons, Romulans, Bajorans, Cardassians and Borg, we spend relatively little time looking at the homeworld or the culture itself, beyond folk meditating, shagging at proscribed intervals, playing discordant music and being quizzed by disembodied voices.  Maybe that's all they do! 

In other news, watched Trouble with Tribbles with the kids last night, they rolled about laughing at the 'Klingens', as they appear to be called by most.  Couldn't help myself shouting 'Remain Klingon!'* whenever Koloth was looking and sounding paticularly human.  Damn fine episode, though. 


*Which I recently discovered is 'Fan Tliongánach' in Irish, thanks to the superb @theirishfor.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tiplodocus on 24 October, 2017, 12:53:09 pm
I hope you are following up with the "Trials and Tribbleations" companion episode of DS9.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 24 October, 2017, 01:21:49 pm
Poor Worf

https://youtu.be/Xka6IYCpj4E (https://youtu.be/Xka6IYCpj4E)
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 24 October, 2017, 01:31:09 pm
I hope you are following up with the "Trials and Tribbleations" companion episode of DS9.

Such a question to ask.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Mardroid on 24 October, 2017, 02:00:18 pm
I do remember a whole plot arc involving Vulcan extremists in Enterprise too. Actually there were two lots: one group who had pushed aside the tenets of logic to explore their emotions, (they weren't terrorists, to be fair) and another lot involved in the government who wanted to oppose the coming connection with Earth (the Federation itself not existing at that point. Although to be fair, I think that one was largely orchestrated by Romulan agents....) It did remind me a bit of the stuff in this episode though, even including a suicide bombing. I'm happy to see a bit more concerning the culture, though.

I actually rather enjoyed this episode. An interesting character piece, and that twist concerning Spock was interesting. Poor Sarek. :lol:
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 24 October, 2017, 02:20:16 pm
A lot of this episode was outright embarrassing, especially the mind meld kung fu shit - which was just an over-milked reheating of Sisko's arc in The Emissary.  But suicide-bombing Vulcans... sure, why not?  If you're throwing shit at a wall, what's one more turd?

Enterprise tried to make the Vulcans villainous, but it was generally a lost cause because it just amounted to Gary Graham doing an impression of a grumpy dean of a university where Party House had been caught drinking or looking at naked girls again.  It was pretty bad, but I really liked the season 4 wrap-up where they put the whole idea to bed forever so we'd never have to endure dull and grumpy off-model Vulcans again.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tjm86 on 24 October, 2017, 03:17:21 pm
one group who had pushed aside the tenets of logic to explore their emotions ...

I think I remember that one.  Didn't it feature the guy from 'Without A Trace' basically acting as a Vulcan version of the guy from 'Without A Trace'? 
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 24 October, 2017, 04:00:37 pm
Also,that wasn't much of a bomb,considering Sarek was standing next to him,and he gets off with a concussion.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 24 October, 2017, 04:30:14 pm
Also,that wasn't much of a bomb,considering Sarek was standing next to him,and he gets off with a concussion.

You saw him put up a shield at the last minute, yes?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JamesC on 24 October, 2017, 06:57:33 pm
Just watched the latest episode and really enjoyed it.
I don't know what others were expecting but I reckon this series has been pretty consistently good. We have a staple of interesting, engaging characters, an interesting premise, lots of potential jeopardy, a bit of mystery and some very pretty production design. I'm happy with that.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 24 October, 2017, 06:59:13 pm
I agree with JamesC as I enjoyed it too, nice new information and twists about characters. And that ending. I liked it!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 24 October, 2017, 07:21:22 pm
Just watched the latest episode and really enjoyed it.
I don't know what others were expecting but I reckon this series has been pretty consistently good. We have a staple of interesting, engaging characters, an interesting premise, lots of potential jeopardy, a bit of mystery and some very pretty production design. I'm happy with that.

I’m loving it so far. Just didn’t feel this matched the previous ones. I really felt the plot being shoved ahead too quickly at the expense of the characters. You know what I mean?

Lorca and the admiral in particular could have used a little more meat on the bones. Instead we got one scene where Lorca’s competency is questioned and then they jump into bed together. Felt way too forced. Likewise with the Vulcan extremists. I would have liked a little more time with that. The Klingon trap too. The big problem for me is we haven’t spent a whole lot of time with the admiral so far and I don’t really care about her or that she’s now in danger. It also means that Lorca’s reluctance to rescue her didn’t carry the weight it should have.

Had the same problem with GoT this season. Loving the story being told, just wish the pacing was a bit more patient. I get it. Fifteen eps isn’t a lot to flesh everything out properly and honestly, one dud out of six is good innings. No biggie.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JamesC on 24 October, 2017, 08:02:48 pm
Just watched the latest episode and really enjoyed it.
I don't know what others were expecting but I reckon this series has been pretty consistently good. We have a staple of interesting, engaging characters, an interesting premise, lots of potential jeopardy, a bit of mystery and some very pretty production design. I'm happy with that.

I’m loving it so far. Just didn’t feel this matched the previous ones. I really felt the plot being shoved ahead too quickly at the expense of the characters. You know what I mean?

Lorca and the admiral in particular could have used a little more meat on the bones. Instead we got one scene where Lorca’s competency is questioned and then they jump into bed together. Felt way too forced. Likewise with the Vulcan extremists. I would have liked a little more time with that. The Klingon trap too. The big problem for me is we haven’t spent a whole lot of time with the admiral so far and I don’t really care about her or that she’s now in danger. It also means that Lorca’s reluctance to rescue her didn’t carry the weight it should have.

Had the same problem with GoT this season. Loving the story being told, just wish the pacing was a bit more patient. I get it. Fifteen eps isn’t a lot to flesh everything out properly and honestly, one dud out of six is good innings. No biggie.

Fair enough. I actually think the Admiral and the slightly mysterious past she shares with Lorca are being handled well. I mention back on page 4 of thi thread how much I enjoy the scenes between the two of them and their scenes in this episode were no exception.
I can see how the bedroom scene could have seemed a little rushed but I just assumed it was fairly normal for them in their relationship.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tiplodocus on 25 October, 2017, 01:45:31 am
Also,that wasn't much of a bomb,considering Sarek was standing next to him,and he gets off with a concussion.

You saw him put up a shield at the last minute, yes?

I didn't. I thought he had dropped out of warp and braced himself while other fella went flying to other end of ship.

A shield makes much more sense.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 25 October, 2017, 05:44:56 pm
Okay, so that episode was much better.

I really want to like Discovery and I hope this is the first step on that road.

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 25 October, 2017, 08:16:27 pm
Easily the best episode so far for me.

The Sarek (always one of my favourite ST characters) and Michael stuff really worked for me, which it really hadn"t before, the crew played well as an ensemble, I liked Amanda, I liked the utter bastardy of Lorca.

There were a few awkward bits, Michael's torrent of exposition at the start and her rambling drivel with Tyler at the end, but the rest was groovy.

Now I want to see Spock and Sybok make an appearance too!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 30 October, 2017, 04:27:18 pm
Well,I actually liked this episode.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 30 October, 2017, 06:35:57 pm
Yeah, that was a fun one.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: von Boom on 30 October, 2017, 06:48:34 pm
That was actually a pretty good episode. Not too dark and Rainn Wilson played Mudd very well this time I thought.

And can anyone explain to me why they are running around the hub of Discovery? They have a holodeck of sorts and treadmills must be pretty sweet by now.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 30 October, 2017, 07:07:18 pm
That was actually a pretty good episode. Not too dark and Rainn Wilson played Mudd very well this time I thought.

And can anyone explain to me why they are running around the hub of Discovery? They have a holodeck of sorts and treadmills must be pretty sweet by now.

Apparently not technically a holodeck, according to the writers. Just a holographic targeting program. I guess the running thing just looks cool...? I dunno. I got nothing.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 30 October, 2017, 07:28:41 pm
I run, but I find treadmills a uniquely empty experience.  Nothing like actually travelling and feeling the ground under your feet, and I'd imagine being stuck in a tin can all day would make that sensation all the more important.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Magnetica on 30 October, 2017, 09:54:15 pm
Yes I enjoyed that episode. As soon as I saw the ship explode I knew time would reset. Well actually I knew before that when Mudd said “see you earlier. This sort of device feels really familiar these days. Indeed hasn’t Star Trek itself done something similar before?

As well as a lot of action there was a lot of character development. I feel like we are really getting to know these characters and they are becoming more likeable and indeed seem to be getting on with each other far better than before. Remember comments in the first few weeks complaining that they we’re likeable and didn’t care about each other? Well things now seem to be progressing well on that front.

Mudd seems to be a very different character to the one we saw on TOS. In that I remember him being a lovable rogue. Here he is a hardened criminal.

I also now really get the look of this show. It will be a shame when the mid season break kicks in.

———
Re treadmills- in my experience they are a poor replacement for actually running. Same thing for exercise bikes.

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tiplodocus on 30 October, 2017, 11:37:08 pm
That worked for me.

Is the similar TNG episode called "Cause and Effect"?.

This was that but with a villain and a clever reason for a romantic sub plot. If you are going to write "And love saved the day" then that's the way to do it.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 31 October, 2017, 12:18:41 am
That worked for me.

Is the similar TNG episode called "Cause and Effect"?.

This was that but with a villain and a clever reason for a romantic sub plot. If you are going to write "And love saved the day" then that's the way to do it.

Yep. With Kelsey Grammar as a captain!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 31 October, 2017, 04:41:53 pm
Torn on this one: is the comedy mileage in mocking what an old whore of a plot this is by now - it's the plot of the episode that made me stop watching Dark Matter - or in pretending they ripped off anime movie Uresei Yatsura 2 and there hasn't been a time loop episode in almost every single sci-fi and fantasy show since Brannon Braga stole the idea from a telemovie called 12:01pm?
Although I did think it was pretty funny that the McGuffin was just straight-up called a Time Crystal, and also laughed at "you've never been in love" - they did not go subtle on the character stuff this time out, though after last week, I don't suppose it should be a surprise.

One thing that did seem off was that the crew were pretty passive about a dude running around waving a gun.  Aren't they at war or something?  Don't they train for just this kind of thing?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: von Boom on 31 October, 2017, 06:22:10 pm
Torn on this one: is the comedy mileage in mocking what an old whore of a plot this is by now - it's the plot of the episode that made me stop watching Dark Matter - or in pretending they ripped off anime movie Uresei Yatsura 2 and there hasn't been a time loop episode in almost every single sci-fi and fantasy show since Brannon Braga stole the idea from a telemovie called 12:01pm?
Although I did think it was pretty funny that the McGuffin was just straight-up called a Time Crystal, and also laughed at "you've never been in love" - they did not go subtle on the character stuff this time out, though after last week, I don't suppose it should be a surprise.

One thing that did seem off was that the crew were pretty passive about a dude running around waving a gun.  Aren't they at war or something?  Don't they train for just this kind of thing?

It does seem odd that they were pretty flat footed about the whole thing. Don't ships usually have marines hanging about to stop this sort of thing.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 31 October, 2017, 09:41:37 pm
Unless they've changed - or just outright ignored - it, the MACOs were dissolved at the formation of the Federation.  I was thinking more that previous episodes have spelled out that this is a ship at war that's also the Federation's frontline secret weapon, so I would have expected a few more have-a-go Joes to be knocking about other than that one bloke who almost tried something.

Another thing that confused me was how Mudd didn't do anything about the only other guy who could move from one loop to the next, which I presume if he didn't twig was a thing when the guy shot him, he would have noticed him turning up all the time in places he shouldn't have been if the loop was playing out as it should.

I guess it's also worth asking how this version of Mudd lines up with the one we know from TOS.  You know, what with the murders and stuff.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Mardroid on 01 November, 2017, 06:58:26 am
I wonder if Mudd would have committed those murders if he didn't know a reset was coming.

As for the Scientist guy, I don't think Mudd twigged about him until very late.

A good episode!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 01 November, 2017, 07:36:41 am
I quite enjoyed that episode once I got over initial eye-roll of it being that kind of story. Honestly, is a contractual obligation that every SF show has to have a 'Groundhog Day' episode?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JamesC on 01 November, 2017, 07:51:51 am
I love these kinds of stories and really enjoyed this.
I put the murders down to Mudd knowing there was a reset coming combined with a bit of post-trauma and desperation regarding the Klingons.
I really liked Mudd's space helmet.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: pauljholden on 01 November, 2017, 01:28:03 pm
I quite enjoyed that episode once I got over initial eye-roll of it being that kind of story. Honestly, is a contractual obligation that every SF show has to have a 'Groundhog Day' episode?

Such a hoary old cliche sci-fi story I'm slightly amazed that The Orville hasn't done it yet.

(I actually enjoyed it, and enjoy orville, so I won't mind when they eventually do it...)

I'm not sure why Mudd doesn't just sell the time crystal - surely it's worth more than everything else combined and Mudd's final fate doesn't seem THAT terrible - if she were a big Jabba the hutt style slug monster, I could understand, but as it is...?
 
pj
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 02 November, 2017, 07:16:03 am
So that was proper Trek fun, by which I mean the very hardiest of plot perennials (I make this the 5th go around in Trek alone, which may represent a meta-plot, I suppose...) combined with an entertaining guest star and some light character development.

Note that Stamets (why wasn't he a Betazoid? He looks and even acts like one, and now we know the species is around in this period),  remarks on how little 7 months of torture have affected Tyler, and also that Tyler survived on that ship largely through engaging the affections of a dangerous woman. Hmmmmmm.

Also: Stamets now knows a LOT of secrets, about Lorca's toys particularly.

While it was amusing to see Mudd prequelled into marraige, I was a bit confused as to why he was let walk off with full knowledge of all Discovery's secrets. Great performance though.

Weekly Star Trek! Not ever did I imagine this time would come again. So to speak.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tiplodocus on 07 November, 2017, 08:19:26 am
That was nice to see them off ship and on planet for a change and some nice action sequences in opening space battle (which included some really simple exposition of more of Lorca's character). I can't help but think that every plot element in each of the different story strands needed more time to breathe though - especially the Avatarland bit.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 07 November, 2017, 08:52:47 am
All in all,it was a pretty meh episode.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tiplodocus on 07 November, 2017, 12:25:33 pm
I liked it. But somehow it managed to be less than the sum of its parts.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: von Boom on 07 November, 2017, 01:58:44 pm
This was the Frankenstein's monster of Star Trek episodes. The pillaged so many previous Star Trek tropes it's hard to name them all. Maybe this was a peace offering to disgruntled fans.

I liked it, though. It wasn't great or new, but more like a comfy chair. Old, worn, and well used.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 07 November, 2017, 02:37:19 pm
That was fun. Once a hippy-ish element shows up in Trek, you know it’s going to hell. I liked it well enough overall though. Nice to see Saru having something to do. He’s probably my favorite character in here so far. Man, Doug Jones and Mary Chieffo are working wonders under that make-up. Chieffo in particular. She’s able to do all her acting through her eyes (even in the long shots…!), something none of the other Klingon actors have been able to manage so far. Great stuff, even if some of her character’s motivations seem too convoluted. No doubt we’ll get some clarity next week.

I’m assuming the admiral is still alive and that L’Rell dumped her escape plans once she discovered her clan had all been killed by Kol.

Starting to think the Voq/Tyler thing is a red herring at this point – although no doubt that’s exactly what the writers would love me to think. His physical appearance I can live with if it’s been altered but he just seems way too familiar with human customs and culture. Also, surely Saru would have been made aware of any nefarious behaviour (even of a Manchurian candidate variety) after last night’s melding? I’m actually going to be disappointed if this goes as it’s set up.

If I’ve nitpicks, they’re the same issues that have been apparent from the start, and to lesser or greater degrees in every episode so far: shorter seasons means compressed plotting and the feeling the characters are simply being pushed along – sometimes way too quickly and forcefully. In a perfect world, I’d actually have liked to have 18, maybe 20 episodes of this after all so that the show could relax and breathe a little.

Wish the space battles would lose the hyper-edits too. They need better storyboard artists.

Also, calling it now: Tilly is going to be Discovery’s captain in the Mirror Universe.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JamesC on 07 November, 2017, 07:19:02 pm
Another enjoyable episode. Can't wait to see where it goes next week (I love that they're releasing it weekly).

I've been trying to think who Saru reminds me of and I think I've got it - he's basically a thin version of Babyface Finlayson.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Robin Low on 09 November, 2017, 06:59:52 pm
Only up to episode five of this. While I am pleasantly surprised that it's a good show, I'm still rather underwhelmed by it. Some things impress me, but I find the tech-level really jarring.

I was arguing with a colleague (a decade younger) today about it. He thinks everything needs updating for a new audience. I say bollocks to that, even though I concede he may have a point. However, it occurred to me that if the series was set a hundred years after Voyager, and there was some guff about the Klingon Empire going bonkers, quitting the Federation fifty years earlier and buggering about with their genetics again, then you could do pretty much exactly what the series has done only without everything looking wrong.

Also, if you're going to give the crew such big quarters, wouldn't it be kinder to make the beds a bit wider? After all, if you did roll over and fall off, it's quite a drop.

Regards,

Robin
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: von Boom on 09 November, 2017, 07:20:02 pm
You're right about it being underwhelming overall. It's the kind of show I'll watch the once and probably never give it a second look.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 13 November, 2017, 02:21:54 pm
Im sensing this episode will start a familiar argument or two here...
And now,they are lost in space.Pun not intended.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: von Boom on 13 November, 2017, 02:39:27 pm
Im sensing this episode will start a familiar argument or two here...
And now,they are lost in space.Pun not intended.

Not lost. Lorcas knows where they are.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: pauljholden on 13 November, 2017, 02:45:27 pm
Only up to episode five of this. While I am pleasantly surprised that it's a good show, I'm still rather underwhelmed by it. Some things impress me, but I find the tech-level really jarring.

I was arguing with a colleague (a decade younger) today about it. He thinks everything needs updating for a new audience. I say bollocks to that, even though I concede he may have a point. However, it occurred to me that if the series was set a hundred years after Voyager, and there was some guff about the Klingon Empire going bonkers, quitting the Federation fifty years earlier and buggering about with their genetics again, then you could do pretty much exactly what the series has done only without everything looking wrong.

Also, if you're going to give the crew such big quarters, wouldn't it be kinder to make the beds a bit wider? After all, if you did roll over and fall off, it's quite a drop.

Regards,

Robin

Here's the tech thing that's been bugging the hell out of me...

Every time they chat to star fleet command, they're chatting to a hologram - but it's a hologram that walks around and moves WITHIN THE CONFINES OF THE RECEIVER'S SPACE - like they exist there.

So, what do the holograms see? Are the commanding officers getting a hologram of the bridge and it's entire crew? Do they have to go an an equivalent of a holodeck to call out people?

It's driving me nuts.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 13 November, 2017, 03:03:39 pm
Im sensing this episode will start a familiar argument or two here...
And now,they are lost in space.Pun not intended.

Not lost. Lorcas knows where they are.

Yup. Watch the ep again. Lorca overrides the final jump destination from his chair (although he seems as confused as the rest of them by the end). I’m wondering is Lorca from the Mirror Universe? Trying to get Home?

Also: man, I loved that one.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: von Boom on 13 November, 2017, 03:54:40 pm
Lorcas has shows his Machiavellian skill at scheming. I appreciated that aspect of the episode, but I truly loathe the Klingons. They're completely inept. No guards anywhere? None on a bridge that size? And Kol, instead of acting like a commander allows himself to be distracted by a challenge for single combat? Daft. Worf would have his spleen for such stupidity.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 13 November, 2017, 04:00:09 pm
Well,they are space orcs.But unfortunatly,not space orks,if you catch my drift. :)
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 13 November, 2017, 04:16:30 pm
Lorcas has shows his Machiavellian skill at scheming. I appreciated that aspect of the episode, but I truly loathe the Klingons. They're completely inept. No guards anywhere? None on a bridge that size? And Kol, instead of acting like a commander allows himself to be distracted by a challenge for single combat? Daft. Worf would have his spleen for such stupidity.

They’re about as inept as they’ve ever been. Haha! Even Worf’s not exactly a deep thinker.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 13 November, 2017, 05:28:09 pm
Surprised no-one moan about Klingon Porn!

Loved the episode and interesting ending! Captain does that on purpose as not want go to Starbase! Hope that was Mirror Universe!?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 13 November, 2017, 05:45:04 pm


Here's the tech thing that's been bugging the hell out of me...

Every time they chat to star fleet command, they're chatting to a hologram - but it's a hologram that walks around and moves WITHIN THE CONFINES OF THE RECEIVER'S SPACE - like they exist there.

So, what do the holograms see? Are the commanding officers getting a hologram of the bridge and it's entire crew? Do they have to go an an equivalent of a holodeck to call out people?

It's driving me nuts.

I assume it's simply a case of all incoming data being passed through a series of in-line null-point discrete individual being discrimination algorithms and extraneous information blackmasking programs via banks of isolinear quantum processing units in order to extract and consolidate caller/sender specific infopackets into focused holographomatic images whilst simultaneously excising and dump-purging extraneous audiovisual input/output streams in a realtime virtual focus environment.

Or: computers.

Simples... :)

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tjm86 on 13 November, 2017, 07:44:10 pm

....
Or: computers.

Simples... :)

I was going to go with "It's all make believe for entertainment purposes, just sit back, disengage brain, enjoy the ride and go 'Oooh pretty!' in all the right places." but we can go with yours too.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 13 November, 2017, 08:17:55 pm
Future version of augmented reality
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 13 November, 2017, 08:39:27 pm
The equivalent projectors that create the Admiral create equally shoddy holos of the crew and furniture at his end.
 Holodeck is a whole separate thing - forcefields, temporary objects,  gravity and ambient conditions, moving the participants about... holograms are the least of it.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tiplodocus on 13 November, 2017, 09:37:28 pm
Quite enjoyed that. Wasn't sure what Lorca was up to but I think even he was surprised by the result. Wasn't expecting the Tyler story to pan out that way either. The episode wasn't without issues though; the aforementioned pathetic Klingons being just so wrong. But the pacing seemed off... episode seemed to end then start again. Not the first time It's done this.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 13 November, 2017, 10:38:13 pm
Surprised no-one moan about Klingon Porn!

That was the best thing in the episode. And it had lots of good things in it!

Going to be a looooooooooooong, hard wait until the series comes back after Christmas.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Mardroid on 14 November, 2017, 06:26:54 am
Lorcas accepting the challenge I can quite believe. It's a very Klingon thing to do, especially considering he was called out in front of his crew.

Overall a good mid-season finale, I'd say. I missed that bit with Lorcas.

Did I actually see bare female lady chest too? Oh my. Only for an instant but they're pushing the envelope on what they consider adult, eh? Even taking into account the argument "why not, since they've gotten more violent, and gory! Why are depictions of violence okay but sex isn't?" the context seemed a bit off, to me, but anyhow.

That exchange a the end between Tyler and T'Rell was interesting though. A couple of ways that could be interpreted... I don't think I can believe he is that albino Klingon in disguise, but where did that guy go?


I wrote a whole chunk describing continuity issues with klingon cloaking technology being widespread this early, then thought up a reasonable explanation that means it doesn't mess with continuity at all. (Often thoughts occur when I'm typing that didn't earlier. Not sure how that works.) I typed it all out here... then deleted it, as it's no longer an issue.

I look forward to more. Shame we'll have a while to wait! I'm not sure why this can't just be season one, and the next, season 2, but I guess they amount of episodes is far too short for typical American series, and there's only a couple of months in between.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 14 November, 2017, 07:26:41 am
(http://78.media.tumblr.com/6a76e03953bca568f2cd9e984afb2212/tumblr_ou2l2zE63Q1vrd10wo1_500.png)
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tiplodocus on 14 November, 2017, 08:12:10 am
It was the fact the Klingons were shite at fighting (hand to hand and ship to ship) that rankled me most. I could see the Captain accepting the challenge but surely he'd have handed Burnam her ass in less than a minute. (My excuse is "Aha but she's trained in Vulcan martial.arts... or something"). But baddies have to be more competent at killing things.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 14 November, 2017, 12:12:07 pm
I look forward to more. Shame we'll have a while to wait! I'm not sure why this can't just be season one, and the next, season 2

Then CBS would only have delivered 9 episodes to the investors like Netflix that paid for 10.  Don't think they'd have been too pleased at having to renegotiate/pay again for the end of the story, let alone a "second" season they'd already paid for.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 14 November, 2017, 12:23:44 pm
I don't normally go for fan theories, but a couple of interesting ones I came across in response to the (niggles aside) fairly excellent mid-season cliff-hanger were…

At some point since using the Spore Drive, Lorca has been replaced with his Mirror Universe version and is trying to get himself back to there and to take this shiny new ship with him

Or, possibly more interestingly…

The whole series has been set in the Mirror Universe until now.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 14 November, 2017, 01:04:56 pm
If this series was set in the Mirror Universe, wouldn't the ships and crew all bear MU "Earth-with-a-dagger-through-it" logos? Wouldn't there be pain-booths and floggings? Wouldn't Lorca have a goatee?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: von Boom on 14 November, 2017, 02:32:14 pm
It was the fact the Klingons were shite at fighting (hand to hand and ship to ship) that rankled me most. I could see the Captain accepting the challenge but surely he'd have handed Burnam her ass in less than a minute. (My excuse is "Aha but she's trained in Vulcan martial.arts... or something"). But baddies have to be more competent at killing things.

The fact that Burnham was even allowed to live once she revealed herself rankled me. "Hey. I'm an enemy just appearing on your flagship bridge. Can we chat?"

She should have been disrupted to bits. End of.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 14 November, 2017, 04:02:05 pm
I liked the giant neon lanterns that shouted "PREPARING TO TRANSMIT DATA" that they hid all over the ship, Klingons apparently being blind and deaf as well as stupid and useless at fighting.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: von Boom on 14 November, 2017, 04:38:16 pm
Why would they see them? They couldn't see Burnham crouching behind a console for twenty minutes. But of course spycraft 101 clearly states if you crouch down you become completely invisible.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Smith on 14 November, 2017, 04:43:17 pm
Clearly,she has maxed out stealth (skill).
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 14 November, 2017, 06:04:19 pm
Burnham wasn't covered in lights and shouting things, I imagine that's how she wasn't noticed.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 14 November, 2017, 08:04:20 pm
While not wanting to excuse the relentless undermining of alien threat that is a key part of any ST incarnation, it strikes me that these are shit Klingons, and not wholely accidentally.  T'Kuvma was the visionary prophet uniting a dissolute race, and Voq his designated successor: these opportunists clowns are the usurpers of this legacy, it wouldn't make as much dramatic sense if they were capable and competent anyway. 
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 14 November, 2017, 08:26:26 pm
Privileged upper class Klingons who talk a good fight and are arrogant enough to believe themselves superior to the actual balls-out warriors they command simply by dint of their noble birth? I can get behind that, no problem.

As to the Other Thing, Lorca might be from the future, come back in time to look for Spock but somehow missing the Kelvin Timeline, which is what he's looking for now... (I hate myself for even suggesting that.)

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 14 November, 2017, 08:36:09 pm
As to the Other Thing, Lorca might be from the future, come back in time to look for Spock but somehow missing the Kelvin Timeline, which is what he's looking for now... (I hate myself for even suggesting that.)

think that was done in the film?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tiplodocus on 21 November, 2017, 06:14:15 pm
I was actually disappointed when I went to watch this last night and realised there wasn't a new episode. So "Job done, ladies and gentlemen. Job done!"
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Mardroid on 23 November, 2017, 07:52:48 am
Yeah, mid season break apparently. It should be back early next year. Nor free why they don't just call what we watched series one and the next series 2, since they appear to literally be going somewhere else...
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JOE SOAP on 05 December, 2017, 01:30:20 am
One for the fans.

 Quentin Tarantino is also planning to boldly go where he has not gone before. Sources said that Tarantino has come up with a great idea for a Star Trek movie at Paramount. After sharing his idea with JJ Abrams (who himself is busy prepping Star Wars Episode IX), I’ve heard the plan is to assemble a writers room of scribes who’ll hear Tarantino’s take and begin to put together a movie. If it all works out, Tarantino might direct it, with Abrams producing.


http://deadline.com/2017/12/quentin-tarantino-star-trek-movie-jj-abrams-1202220032/
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 05 December, 2017, 01:44:54 am
I'd be thrilled with that, to be honest. Not the first time Tarantino has voiced his ideas for a Trek movie and what he'd do with it. He LOVES TNG's 'Yesterday's Enterprise' and the dilemma at the heart of it.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 05 December, 2017, 10:12:43 am
He LOVES TNG's 'Yesterday's Enterprise' and the dilemma at the heart of it.

So I guess the plot of the new film would be Everythings got fucked up, people fights, get killed, so much evil, so much deaths then it all reset at ending?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 05 December, 2017, 10:17:42 am
He LOVES TNG's 'Yesterday's Enterprise' and the dilemma at the heart of it.

So I guess the plot of the new film would be Everythings got fucked up, people fights, get killed, so much evil, so much deaths then it all reset at ending?

Two photon torpedo technicians talking about foot massages for twenty minutes while they wait for the order to motherfrakkin' fire, dammit!

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Mardroid on 05 December, 2017, 12:15:32 pm
Two photon torpedo technicians talking about foot massages for twenty minutes while they wait for the order to motherfrakkin' fire, dammit!

Heh. What I love about Tarantino films, there will be scenes of that gubbins and I'll still listen to it, and be entertained.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 05 December, 2017, 01:38:35 pm
The compelling dilemma in Yesterday's Enterprise is what constitutes a life of significance: fighting the good fight, or dying to prevent that fight ever starting. Only one thing is clear: being zapped by black goo is a waste.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 05 December, 2017, 07:07:45 pm
He LOVES TNG's 'Yesterday's Enterprise' and the dilemma at the heart of it.

So I guess the plot of the new film would be Everythings got fucked up, people fights, get killed, so much evil, so much deaths then it all reset at ending?

Two photon torpedo technicians talking about foot massages for twenty minutes while they wait for the order to motherfrakkin' fire, dammit!

"Know what they call a Big Mac on Talos IV...?"
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JOE SOAP on 06 December, 2017, 01:42:24 am
Ersatz Trek is all the rage.

Black Mirror - U.S.S. Callister (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=qgTtyfgzGc0)

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tiplodocus on 09 January, 2018, 08:32:55 pm
So I right enjoyed that.

Lorca is certifiable but I don't think he's from mirror universe unless he is playing a long game and very good at acting.

And a shock death!

But good to see a mirror universe episode that wasn't high camp.

Good to have it back. It's still not Star trek but some of the things the characters say are helping it get there.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: von Boom on 09 January, 2018, 08:54:29 pm
I'm undecided about this change. I need to think about it some more. There were elements I thought 'yes, that makes sense', but some of it didn't work for me, namely the murder and the agony booths. I'm also coming to the realisation that Burnham is dull as dishwater and I don't care about her story in the least.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 10 January, 2018, 04:08:47 pm
Maybe the break was the worst thing that happened here but ten minutes into this, I started asking myself do I actually like this show?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 10 January, 2018, 04:53:23 pm
All the characters are assholes, no-one trusts each other, and they haven't done a single original thing yet - what's not to like?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 10 January, 2018, 04:54:39 pm
I re-watched the first nine episodes in the hope that, now my disappointment has dissipated somewhat, I might actually enjoy it. I didn't.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JamesC on 10 January, 2018, 08:44:22 pm
I really enjoyed that - I thought it was extremely entertaining and great fun.
There are plenty of questions but that’s all part of the fun (Im intrigued to know what Burnham’s history with the Vulcans is in the mirror universe).
I don’t think it’s fair to say the characters are all assholes and that they don’t trust each other. Burnham is pretty sound and obviously trusts security bloke (probably wrongly so), Lorca certainly trusts Burnham etc.
I think the whole thing’s ace.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 10 January, 2018, 09:26:37 pm
Yep. Really enjoyed this latest episode. Haven’t enjoyed a ST series this much since DS9, although in a very different way (obviously).
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Bad City Blue on 11 January, 2018, 10:20:58 am
Nice switch to a "Dark Universe" alternate reality - very STar Trek!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tiplodocus on 11 January, 2018, 10:41:40 am
Yep and Tilly is not an asshole and trusts people.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Satanist on 11 January, 2018, 12:58:33 pm
This show is enjoyable fluff. Out of all the characters I like Tilly best. Lorca's a tool.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 11 January, 2018, 07:10:31 pm
It's soooo wrong,  but feels so right! Kids pestering me non-stop to watch this,  now we have to watch all the previous Mirror Universe episodes... Excellent work, Discovery types.

Do hope they find a way to bring the Doc back,  one of my favourite characters,  but a good surprise nonetheless.  Bets on who the Emperor is?  Round here Georgiou is the favourite,  with Admiral Cornwall a contender. But I'd love Captain April or even Doctor Culber himself!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Steve Green on 11 January, 2018, 07:23:15 pm
I can't remember if I watched the mirror universe episodes of Enterprise, but looking at the wiki, the novels had Hoshi Sato as Empress with a line of succession for 122 years
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JamesC on 12 January, 2018, 06:15:52 am
Is this supposed to be the same mirror universe as shown in TOS? If so, how come there was an evil Spock as part of the evil Enterprise crew seeing as he’s half Vulcan (not sure I’ve ever seen that episode of TOS, if I have it was years ago)?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 12 January, 2018, 08:08:35 am
Enterprise established Vulcans as a slave/vassal race of the Empire, after Zephram Cohrane pulled a blaster at the Bozeman First Contact and looted their ship... One of the best opening sequences in Trekstory, but sadly lost in that show's largely unwatched 4th Season. The main thing to remember about the Mirror Universe is that it's fun, rather than any kind of plausible counterfactual: the gag is the same characters on the same ships but with different personalities, despite the hugely different timelines.  Discovery slightly disappoints in its tragic lack of goatees (and crop-tops).
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JamesC on 12 January, 2018, 10:04:29 am
Thanks - I really should get round to watching Enterprise.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 12 January, 2018, 10:20:42 am
Thanks - I really should get round to watching Enterprise.

Oh no! You've activated the Bear Signal!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Theblazeuk on 12 January, 2018, 11:18:36 am
Lorca is my favourite character because he's a tool. Nice to see a tool on Star Trek that isn't just a fusspot or Neelix.

Looks like many of the bets about Lt Tyler were correct, eh? Lot of character arc already for a fake person. Gutted about the Doc, bit dubious about in regards to the 'Bury Your Gays' trope  The other half was doomed from the second he injected himself with spacemagic of course, but I feel that's a bit different. Maybe just because this was my favourite couple in SF for a long while and one of the things that made the relatively dark world of Discovery still part of the Utopian tradition of Star Trek.

This Mirror World is Totally Fun. Captain Killy? Doesn't need a goatee
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Mike Carroll on 12 January, 2018, 11:38:50 am
Lorca is my favourite character because he's a tool. Nice to see a tool on Star Trek that isn't just a fusspot or Neelix.

Looks like many of the bets about Lt Tyler were correct, eh? Lot of character arc already for a fake person. Gutted about the Doc, bit dubious about in regards to the 'Bury Your Gays' trope  The other half was doomed from the second he injected himself with spacemagic of course, but I feel that's a bit different. Maybe just because this was my favourite couple in SF for a long while and one of the things that made the relatively dark world of Discovery still part of the Utopian tradition of Star Trek.

This Mirror World is Totally Fun. Captain Killy? Doesn't need a goatee

Sorry, Theblazeuk, I had to remove the TV Tropes link because the spoiler tags don't work properly with embedded links. (I could have simply spoilered the text around the link, but the link itself is a bit of a spoiler...)
-- Mike
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 12 January, 2018, 11:45:14 am
Thanks - I really should get round to watching Enterprise.

Oh no! You've activated the Bear Signal!

The first two seasons of Enterprise are the best.  ALL HAIL THE EMPIRE.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 12 January, 2018, 12:07:27 pm
Looks like many of the bets about Lt Tyler were correct, eh? Lot of character arc already for a fake person.

I think the thing is that Tyler is a real person - the original (captured and now dead) Tyler's personality has been 'grafted' on over Voq's, presumably along with his face etc. Now both Tyler and Voq share a mind and a body. So he's sort of a grimdark Discovery version of Tuvix
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Mardroid on 13 January, 2018, 05:34:01 am
Great new episode!

Concerning Tyler, considering his alteration was surgical, that shouldn't effect a DNA scan, right? I suppose they must have done some DNA resequencing too...I suppose his alteration is more extensive than that spy underwent from The Trouble with Tribbles where a tricorder scan showed him for what he was, after that tribble went barmy. Come to think of it, I wonder how a tribble would react to Tyler... . [ \spoiler]
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 13 January, 2018, 10:54:59 am
Great new episode!

Concerning Tyler, considering his alteration was surgical, that shouldn't effect a DNA scan, right? I suppose they must have done some DNA resequencing too...I suppose his alteration is more extensive than that spy underwent from The Trouble with Tribbles where a tricorder scan showed him for what he was, after that tribble went barmy. Come to think of it, I wonder how a tribble would react to Tyler... . [ \spoiler]

Chekov's Tribble.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Steve Green on 13 January, 2018, 11:01:13 am
Lorca is my favourite character because he's a tool. Nice to see a tool on Star Trek that isn't just a fusspot or Neelix.

Looks like many of the bets about Lt Tyler were correct, eh? Lot of character arc already for a fake person. Gutted about the Doc, bit dubious about in regards to the 'Bury Your Gays' trope  The other half was doomed from the second he injected himself with spacemagic of course, but I feel that's a bit different. Maybe just because this was my favourite couple in SF for a long while and one of the things that made the relatively dark world of Discovery still part of the Utopian tradition of Star Trek.

This Mirror World is Totally Fun. Captain Killy? Doesn't need a goatee

Seem to recall the actor saying you haven't seen the last of the doc.

Since they're in the mirror universe his alternate is likely knocking around.

Although that might be a bit having your cake and eating it regarding that trope.

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Robin Low on 14 January, 2018, 01:28:35 pm
Bets on who the Emperor is? 

Harry Mudd.

God only knows what's really going on here. It's a Mirror Universe, but is it the Mirror Universe, the one we saw in TOS, DS9 and E? Having established the existence of multiple parallel universes, I'm going to presume that the prime 'verse of Discovery is not the 'verse of TOS, TNG and so forth, on the basis of all the design and technology that doesn't match. As a geek I'm kind of fond of parallel universes, but here I guess it's going to be used as a lazy justification for Discovery not fitting coherently with previously established Trek.

Overall, it's kind of fun and I like several of the characters, but because it does feel like it's from a parallel universe I don't have so much emotional investment.

Regards,

Robin
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 14 January, 2018, 02:42:02 pm
Well, I was almost on the verge of being within sight of beginning to think about enjoying that episode. Almost.

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 15 January, 2018, 03:24:01 pm
It was slow but 3rd act  :o - great episode!

Of course we knew he is. But nice reveal.

And the Emperor is...  :o
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Mardroid on 15 January, 2018, 11:45:28 pm
Yes, I enjoyed that. I am proud to say I actually guessed the identity of The Emperor correctly.

I was way behind in guessing a certain other persons identity, however. I mean, I had a strong inclination before this week, but I understand many of you guessed way back when the character was introduced. Particularly impressed that both Voq and Tyler are played by the same actor. I’d never recognise him under the prosthetics, etc. Credit to them that they kept the secret by crediting Voq under a fake actor’s name. The actor chose his own late fathers name!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 18 January, 2018, 12:07:48 am
Praise Grud! I've been wanting to like STD for so long I've come out in a rash. These latest two episodes have attracted my attention. Not converted just yet but have my fingers crossed.



Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 22 January, 2018, 03:36:32 pm
Well, that's more like it. Reckon that was the first time the show has felt 100% Trek from start to finish. No bad thing. I'll avoid spoilers. Let's just say everything - EVERYTHING - gets pulled together at last and it's pretty delicious.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: pauljholden on 22 January, 2018, 07:27:44 pm
this week. blimey.

I LOVE that they're juist going balls out nutso.

I wonder, if, ultimately, we'll find out that Discovery isn't set in any of the trek universes we've seen already - that it's mirror universe is just one of many mirror universes to the many other trek universes,
 would explain klingons and the rest... I'd've said that was a bonkers idea (though I've been playing with it for a while) but now Lorca...
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 22 January, 2018, 07:40:32 pm
Last night's also left me a little sad thinking about what we might have had had Fuller been left to truly craft an anthology series. Less complaining, I think, if we'd known this would be - quite literally - a standalone season telling its own story and knowing the next one would be completely different. A real shame and a missed opportunity.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tiplodocus on 23 January, 2018, 07:59:14 am
Well that explains a few things! I love this long form plotting and the opportunities it affords for audacious rug pulling. Very good stuff and I love that quite a lot of the main characters are now behaving like they are in Star Trek.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 23 January, 2018, 10:50:46 am
Heh I knew it! But excellent episode.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JamesC on 23 January, 2018, 11:02:08 am
Yep, enjoyed that. Lorca's awesome!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 29 January, 2018, 04:45:05 pm
Another excellent episode. Too many deaths!

Jason Isaacs is the perfect casting to the series.

Two episodes to go.  :o
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tiplodocus on 30 January, 2018, 07:58:20 am
Very exciting stuff. Wasn't entirely happy with some of the technobabble problem solving and massive pieces of propulsion system redesign being completed in minutes but sometimes you just gotta roll with it.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Steve Green on 30 January, 2018, 11:37:18 am
I think I needed to pay more attention over the last couple of episodes.

I got the impression at the end of the last episode that Stamets swapped places? But in this episode nothing seems to have been made of it, and the real Stamets has been killed off, but the mirror one didn't seem to have the corruption on his arm...

Maybe the twists are making me glaze over and I'm seeing them where they aren't there
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 30 January, 2018, 12:00:56 pm
Maybe the twists are making me glaze over and I'm seeing them where they aren't there

I think it's this. I thought they might swap the Stamets but there really wasn't anything to indicate that and plenty to indicate that they hadn't.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Steve Green on 30 January, 2018, 12:34:23 pm
I'll have to rewatch - I could have sworn there was something about him reappearing somewhere else
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: DaveGYNWA on 30 January, 2018, 12:52:21 pm
I'll have to rewatch - I could have sworn there was something about him reappearing somewhere else

That was Mirror him waking up from his coma after normal him sorted stuff out where they were stuck, and got normal him out too.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 30 January, 2018, 02:49:00 pm
I'll have to rewatch - I could have sworn there was something about him reappearing somewhere else

Both Stamets were in a comatose state. When Prime Stamets “found his way home”, we see MU Stamets waking in the Charon’s med bay. What’s confusing is they show him waking first and saying something like “he did it!” before we see the same thing on Discovery. The show whips by very fast. I have to watch it all twice. It’s like Hannibal all over again!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Steve Green on 30 January, 2018, 06:48:36 pm
Yeah, it felt a bit odd - not sure if it was intentional or not, but thought they were going somewhere with it.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Leigh S on 30 January, 2018, 07:06:34 pm
I did read it as "noraml universe" Stamets waking up in his Mirror counterparts body, too.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 30 January, 2018, 09:00:59 pm
Yeah, just a bit sloppily edited, I reckon. Would have made more sense to show us Discovery's Stamets waking first.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Theblazeuk on 30 January, 2018, 09:32:29 pm
Glad I wasn't the only one - kept thinking "Well, Stammet's prime is playing a very long and strange game here."

My personal theory on all this is Lorca swapped places with his 'prime' version, the guy with the Starfleet career that he could step into and start to exploit. Otherwise he was proper busy! Even managing to get a backstory with the Admiral.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Mardroid on 31 January, 2018, 08:17:26 am
Yes, it was the Prime universe Lorca who had the relationship with the Admiral. There's a scene where the Admiral reminisces with him. She mentions something which he does not remember. In that episode it just seemed that his memory was patchy, or an indicator that he has other priorities, but in hindsight its a clue that he doesn't remember because... it wasn't him who experienced it.

Much as I wish I'd noticed that myself, I confess it was pointed out in the After Trek show that follows the programme. (Yes I'm one of those sad cases who watches those . while it involves a lot of inter cast/production team botty kissing it does have some interesting stuff.)
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Steve Green on 31 January, 2018, 08:42:31 am
Interesting.

I wondered where it might go after killing off Lorca, but hadn't considered that Prime Lorca might still be knocking around somewhere, and could make for some interesting dynamics with the crew, in light of his mirror counterpart's actions
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JamesC on 31 January, 2018, 09:04:08 am
I thought Prime Lorca was dead because he transported into the mirror ship in the ion cloud as it was destroyed (mirror Lorca's transporter signal got swapped with Prime Lorca's, so PL transported to the mirror ship at the point of destruction while ML transported to the prime universe).
Did I get that wrong?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Steve Green on 31 January, 2018, 09:10:21 am
You're probably right, although I do wonder if either of them might linger around the network.

With the Klingon's having 'won' I've no idea where it might be going other than a time-travel/reset button -
 maybe even back to the initial Lorca switch
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Steve Green on 31 January, 2018, 11:20:26 am
Looks like nothing has been ruled out.

https://trekmovie.com/2018/01/29/jason-isaacs-and-star-trek-discovery-producers-talk-prime-lorca-emperors-future-and-more/
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 31 January, 2018, 02:17:47 pm
Seeing as we now know Discovery can travel through alternate realities and time via the blippity bloppity network thingy, and noting we’ve just two episodes left for them to repair their current timeline (assuming they don’t end on a cliffhanger), I wonder if that’s going to be the basis for her future explorations/seasons...? Certainly more interesting than just flying around the Prime Universe. Or perhaps they’ll be lost trying to find their way back to their proper reality and time. Like Voyager but not (mostly) boring...?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tiplodocus on 31 January, 2018, 05:05:09 pm
Regarding Lorca prime, I think the adage applies:
If you didn't see the body or see them die onscreen then don't assume they are dead.


Nice to see some tactics with containment shields used in the firefights. Not many... but It's a start.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tiplodocus on 06 February, 2018, 08:19:49 pm
Much quieter episode tonight with emotional resolutions and precious little action or threat. But continues to get more like Trek.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 06 February, 2018, 08:54:30 pm
Yeah, even I'm starting to enjoy it. That scene with Tyler in the mess hall - that, right there, is what Trek is all about for me.

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 09 February, 2018, 05:04:23 pm
Worst episode yet for me.  The bits where they stand around shouting at the start just made me think of those behind the scenes clips of Ricky Gervaise playing an IRA bomber in Alias and he kept cracking up just because it was such a ridiculous, po-faced conceit.
The bit in the mess hall also seemed a bit... well, I mean, obviously it simply has to be a callback to the third or so episode where Burnham got the same reception, but things play out differently here, with the guy who murdered one of their most well-liked co-workers accepted pretty quickly compared to the treatment the woman who was proven right about making the first strike against the Klingons recieved.  I wonder what's different about this handsome white(ish) male that he's more readily accepted by the crew for his crimes than a black woman?  I guess we'll never figure out what the subtext is there.
Speaking of subtext: abusive spouses.  I can't tell if this subtext was intentional or not, because the message seems to be that Burnham is wrong to hold a history of abusive behavior towards her against the handsome white(ish) male, and all her supposed friends seem to be taking his side and proffering excuses.  Her feelings are not unreasonable here, I don't quite know what the script is supposed to be doing other than going through the motions of what Treks past have done.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 09 February, 2018, 07:54:18 pm
I wonder what's different about this handsome white(ish) male that he's more readily accepted by the crew for his crimes than a black woman? 

Because he was coerced,  by having his personality grafted onto/into the tormented body of a Klingon Pope?  As opposed to committing mutiny and getting her Captain and crewmates killed of her own free will?  Forgiving one seems easier for Starfleet than the other,  irrespective of skin colour/gender. Also, Tilly now has the precedent of Burnham before her.

I actually tend to agree with the Prof this week,  the emotional scenes seemed overblown and forced, as did the Enterprise excerpt from Memory Alpha that Cantwell googled. Still enjoying it overall, though.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 10 February, 2018, 12:02:35 pm
As opposed to committing mutiny and getting her Captain and crewmates killed of her own free will?

That is literally my argument: that the whit(ish) male gets the benefit of the doubt Burnham doesn't and a rationalisation for his actions despite no-one actually knowing for sure if he can be trusted.  They are creating bioweapons and happily jump to experimenting on living beings on Discovery by the time Burnham arrives - one would assume that anyone serving on it is on nodding terms with the concept of the ends justifying the means, much as they are clearly shown to already be acquainted with a paranoiac level of security because of - presumably - the possibility of Klingon spies.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 10 February, 2018, 01:26:32 pm
Rather than race/gender, the difference I see is that a chunk of Discovery's crew are survivors of the Shenzou - notably Keyla and Saru - and in addition to losing their captain and ship supposedly due to her actions, when Michael shows up again they are unwillingly fighting a war they believe was started by their long-time former First Officer,  Starfleet's first convicted mutineer: there is a shared shame by association, and a personal betrayal of trust.

I do think this is a more unacceptable pill than Tyler's murder of Culber, when he is a less-familiar figure,  and essentially a victim of the forces they have been fighting.  Starfleet is well familiar with being suborned by aliens (it happened to Saru only the other week), less so with their superiors committing mutiny and starting wars.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 10 February, 2018, 02:48:21 pm
I also took it as the trust and respect has grown between these crew members. They’re now willing to stand by each other in a way they couldn’t back at the start. Personally speaking, I doubt I’d be letting a suspected Klingon spy wander around my ship after all that but hey, that’s why they’re on Star Trek and I’m not.

Mind you, this is also the organization that thinks letting an evil, genocidal empress from a parallel universe take command of their most useful war asset is a champion idea. If Discovery has shown us one thing over the last fourteen episodes, it’s that Starfleet is not very good at this war thing...
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 10 February, 2018, 02:49:55 pm
I also took it as the trust and respect has grown between these crew members. They’re now willing to stand by each other in a way they couldn’t back at the start. Personally speaking, I doubt I’d be letting a suspected Klingon spy wander around my ship after all that but hey, that’s why they’re on Star Trek and I’m not.

Mind you, this is also the organization that thinks letting an evil, genocidal empress from a parallel universe take command of their most useful war asset is a champion idea. If Discovery has shown us one thing over the last fourteen episodes, it’s that Starfleet is not very good at this war thing...
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 10 February, 2018, 02:50:33 pm
Oh for fuck’s sake.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 10 February, 2018, 03:23:09 pm
Rather than race/gender, the difference I see is that a chunk of Discovery's crew are survivors of the Shenzou - notably Keyla and Saru - and in addition to losing their captain and ship supposedly due to her actions, when Michael shows up again they are unwillingly fighting a war they believe was started by their long-time former First Officer,  Starfleet's first convicted mutineer: there is a shared shame by association, and a personal betrayal of trust.

The fact that they were there means they knew Burnham didn't start the war as she was prevented from firing first - if anything, they'd be wondering if she was right all along, especially after Klingons killed and ate their former captain and wiped out Starfleet's admiralty.

All of which doesn't change that none of what we've discussed as to motivations or a change in the ship's atmosphere is actually onscreen - all that's onscreen is high school drama about not eating alone, a scene which played out differently for another character.  I know we're in a post-Last Jedi world where the audience is expected to do all the heavy lifting the script doesn't bother with, but I'm old fashioned and I'm taking Discovery at face value here, and it's been a story about someone who doesn't fit in wherever she's ended up, and now we see the current bunch of snobs she's surrounded with are willing to extend a different level of understanding to her abusive ex.  At best, this just confirms my half-joking summation that Discovery is a ship full of wankers.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 10 February, 2018, 03:51:05 pm
all that's onscreen is high school drama about not eating alone, a scene which played out differently for another character.

"We did this to Burnham and we were wrong. Let's not do that again." Is that not a valid interpretation? The time with Burnham (and, quite possibly, a very different moral compass guiding the occupant of the captain's chair) has changed the crew of Discover? Possibly for the better?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 10 February, 2018, 04:14:52 pm
Have we actually seen Burnham get out of the doghouse yet, tho?  She's been narratively central, but her entire story engine is being an outsider no matter where she is.

I stand by my assessment that the crew are wankers, though I will concede that they've just come back from a universe of evil doubles and I can't really see that reducing their spy-based paranoia levels much, so kudos to them for almost immediately getting over a confirmed murderer wearing someone else's face being among their number.  I imagine it makes it easier to go back to gossiping about that crazy Burnham and her loopy idea back on the Shenzou that the Klingons were about to attack and declare war.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 10 February, 2018, 04:51:12 pm
I do think Prof Bear has a point here - set against Michael's longer arc of redemption,  Tyler's quick re-acceptance by the crew seems out of place.  I don't see the race/gender component,  and I think it makes sense for the reasons given earlier,  but it does seem an unfortunate story choice,  unless it becomes a larger point later.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 10 February, 2018, 05:47:47 pm
To me, Burnham in her mess hall scene represented the Federation's world and moral compass all turning to shit so nobody wanted to sit with her for fear of being infected by her perceived toxic perspective. They all believed in the Federation and its principles and, at this early stage in the war, may have been terrified to examine those core beliefs too deeply or even risk having them questioned.

Tyler's mess hall scene, in contrast, occurs at a time when the Federation's ethics and procedures (even though distorted by Terran Lorca) have seen the crew through a particularly trying and dangerous time and so the crew sit with him because they fear losing the Federation principles which have served them so well and are, after all, what they've been fighting to preserve.

I see basically the same fear driving both scenes and resulting in different outcomes based only on time and circumstance. The fear of losing the Federation's principles, to my mind, explains both scenes without any need whatsoever to bring sex, race, creed or colour into the mix.

Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 10 February, 2018, 06:58:22 pm
I do think Prof Bear has a point here

Statistically speaking, it had to happen while I was blathering, but I am as surprised and alarmed by this turn of events as anyone.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 12 February, 2018, 04:35:06 pm
That was great final episode. Really enjoy it. Nice cameo from Cliff Howard.

And that amazing final scene!! What a cliffhanger!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 12 February, 2018, 04:49:38 pm
That last scene is going to leave some people pretty divided. Not crazy about them updating the Enterprise but at least it looks like a pretty respectful take on it.

Good finale, I thought, even if things wrapped up just a little too neatly (and talky).
- Klingons didn't look too excited about peace. Couldn't they just kill L'Rell and take her iPad?
- Would have been more interesting to have Burnham start back at a lower rank, maybe?
- This Sarek's a bit too nice compared to how he'll be ten (nine?) years from now on Journey To Babel.
- Who's Discovery's new captain going to be? (It's going to be Burnham. They're not going to make it to Vulcan to pick up their new captain, methinks...)
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tiplodocus on 13 February, 2018, 12:53:54 am
Quite disappointed with that finale. Very low key and all too neat to be believable - especially the resolution with the Klingons. I actually wish the Season had finished two episodes back. It had a better cliffhanger too.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 13 February, 2018, 11:33:41 am
Loves the whole series. The Klingon war resolved the way it had to resolve. The Federation weren't about to start genocidally wiping out planets. Burnham had to get pardoned, as otherwise without Lorca's protection she was heading straight back to the glasshouse.

The highlight for me was Michelle Yeoh. She was a bit meh as the good Phillipa, but totally amazing as her own evil duplicate. So pleased she survived the episode.

The end of season cliffhanger. Not really a cliffhanger, more a semi-promise that Spock is going to be in season 2. I liked it.

Oh yeah, and BRING BACK LORCA!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Professor Bear on 13 February, 2018, 12:31:34 pm
Continuing the downward trend from last week, the finale felt more uneven than outright bad - the show works hard to differentiate itself from the utopian 1960s fantasy version of the Federation but then expects you to forget all that and buy their "Oh Captain My Captain" moment.

All of the pivotal scenes necessary to make this episode work relied on the audience's indulgence rather than feeling earned by the actual story, which I'm not sure made sense objectively or relative to its own narrative: "I have a bomb that will blow up this planet if you don't do what I say" is basically a bluff, but it is also a bluff being made against the Klingons - the Have-A-Go-Joes of the Alpha Quadrant - by someone they hate and ridicule.  A deus ex ending where the enemy is threatened into submission with a war crime rather than reasoned with - it's like 60s Trek never went away.
The bit where the Klingon ships just turn around and fly away from Earth was really funny, though, as was "previously in Star Trek Discovery" being said in Klingon at the start.  Also, I wasn't sure why Burnham was giving that speech at the end, but I'm sure I blinked and missed something.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: JamesC on 13 February, 2018, 01:16:14 pm
RE: the speech at the end. I've noticed in films and TV at the moment that characters make what are supposed to by rousing or poignant speeches or monologues but the writers aren't very good at being  succinct so they just come out as a load of old waffle.
I can't think of any more examples at the moment but it's a trend I've been peripherally aware of to the point where when this speech started it came into sharp focus and made me think - 'Not another of these awful waffley speeches we've been getting a lot of lately!'

Other than that I enjoyed the episode.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tiplodocus on 13 February, 2018, 04:30:00 pm
"Band of Brothers" did the closing, rousing speech trope rather well by having a German commander giving it to his troops.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 13 February, 2018, 05:52:59 pm
Well, for me the series started off poorly, got steadily worse, rallied somewhat right near the end but finished floating face down in a pool of its own sickly jizz.


Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Tiplodocus on 13 February, 2018, 09:20:01 pm
Well, for me the series started off poorly, got steadily worse, rallied somewhat right near the end but finished floating face down in a pool of its own sickly jizz.

Ah, so you've been on a night with the CalHab boarders?
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Art on 13 February, 2018, 10:18:24 pm
Best first season of a Trek since TOS.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 13 February, 2018, 10:28:17 pm
Mmmm, as early Trek seasons go, this whole thing is way above par. One recalls the clusterfuck (writer's strike notwithstanding) constituted by the the last four episodes of TNG's first season (or indeed the end o fits second). Miracle anyone tuned in ever again.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: blackmocco on 13 February, 2018, 11:19:55 pm
I would say DS9 had a patchy but generally effective first season too. If the stories weren't always great, they at least succeeded in laying down a great tone to build off. I'd say the same about Discovery. It didn't have the strength of its convictions by the end, in my opinion. It teased a lot of directions it never really had the balls to go in. (For example, I loved the Lorca twist - honestly didn't see it coming - but feel now that maybe we missed an opportunity to see how a starship functions when the captain is a dick, rather than a captain who's an evil duplicate from a parallel universe.) In saying all that, I enjoyed it a lot and yeah as a first season with some stumbles, it succeeded in giving me a crew I want to know more about with a great cast.

Fuller's non-involvement in season 2 will be the real tester as to whether they can get it right or not.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Art on 14 February, 2018, 12:05:05 am
Early DS9 mostly consisted of recycled TNG plots, they had to burn through a lot of those to get to the good stuff.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: TordelBack on 14 February, 2018, 07:46:42 pm
As my 8-yr old daughter put it,  "that's a lot of Orion butt! ". But aside from the rather rushed and unconvincing end to the war, I thought the whole series was a surprising success. Finding myself eagerly watching, and speculating about, new Trek week to week with my kids, it still seems so incredibly unlikely. For this feat alone Discovery now has a place in my heart.

More,  please!
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Goaty on 14 February, 2018, 07:48:13 pm
Anyone loved the moment when Tilly want to "Hail Emperor".
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Art on 14 February, 2018, 08:37:40 pm
Everything Tilly/Killy related is great.

Note that she kept the wig far longer than she actually needed it.
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Robin Low on 17 February, 2018, 11:38:36 am
RE: the speech at the end. I've noticed in films and TV at the moment that characters make what are supposed to by rousing or poignant speeches or monologues but the writers aren't very good at being  succinct so they just come out as a load of old waffle.

The best thing about Prelude to Axanar (and there are a number of good things) is Ramirez' speech in Archer Arena:

We are facing an enemy that is consumed and committed to our total destruction. 
An enemy that demands to be fought, and we will fight!
But I say to you our greatest challenge is not the might of a Klingon fleet.
The greatest challenge laying before us is to do what must be done, without undoing the dream of the Federation. 
For myself, I have but one fear: Destroying the dream of the Federation.
Compared to such a loss, I DO NOT FEAR THE KLINGON EMPIRE!

In PtA this is intercut with some other comments (a bit like wossname's in Discovery), but it's short and sharp, and Tony Todd's delivery and performance is powerful. It's a pretty clear statement about the nature of Star Fleet. Yeah, if we have to fight then we'll fight and fight hard, but we'll also do our damnedest not to compromise the Federation's ideals and goals in the process.

For all the impressive things in Discovery, I can't help but compare it to PtA. There's nothing in Discovery that I'm interested in rewatching, but I find myself coming back to PtA again and again. It's like Discovery is using the iconography of Star Trek, but PtA actually understands and follows its tenets.

Oh, dear. Star Trek as a religion. Never mind.

Regards,

Robin
Title: Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
Post by: Theblazeuk on 18 February, 2018, 09:17:15 pm
Bit of a rush job there for both Klingons and Voke. I would maybe have preferred the resolution took as much time and sweat as the mirror verse excursion.