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Spoilers => Prog => Topic started by: Colin YNWA on 04 December, 2017, 08:36:41 pm

Title: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: Colin YNWA on 04 December, 2017, 08:36:41 pm
Bloomin' heck 8.30pm and I bag the Prog thread... I take it it wasn't just me who missed out on Saturday...

... not that we missed much to be honest.

The Dredd was been a story I've enjoyed, up to this part. I love the dog surfing... but the meteor, the letting Dredd go (kinda) it felt a little weak if I'd honest. Liked the last panel abut over all poor ending. Still these landing are hard to pull off.

As the 3riller shows... well the middle part was good at least but this failed to deliver the ending flat with a kinda twist and characters that just didn't gem in the end.

And Slaine doesn't so much land the ending as belly flop in a big messy splash. Damn that was disappointing, Slaine get the double page feature and wastes it with a limp, indulgent ending at least 4 pages too long.

So thank Tharg for Absolam, a bit of piss and vinegar, to two assembled and splashed in front of us and a tense promise of the conflicit to come. Now that's the way to land an ending.
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: Richard on 04 December, 2017, 10:48:44 pm
I liked the 3riller ending. Reminded me of Tales of Telguuth.
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: James Stacey on 05 December, 2017, 10:32:31 am
the Norwichmas Threeler didnt do it for me sorry. A twist like that only works if you didn't see it coming but should have. It was just stuff that happened.
How did Slaine defeat the Archons? Was it just with a quip. Felt a bit odd, lets just talk a bit then we'll flash forward to it being over. As always beautiful art but the story, what there was of it took ages to get anywhere, then needn't have bothered. Seemed it was just an excuse to shoe horn a trademark uncle Pat rant against religion. I'm not a huge fan of Absolom either so not a great prog for me. Dredd was alright though. :D Looking forward to the next batch of thrills now.
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: IndigoPrime on 05 December, 2017, 10:59:32 am
Sláine was never particularly subtle when it came to religion, but this series felt like a angry internet troll. RELIGION IS BAD ALL CAPS RANT OVER SEVERAL PROGS. The absolute nadir of the strip, for me. And that after what I felt was a proper return to form in the first book.

As for Dredd, that doesn't look like an ending to me – more of a comma or a semi-colon, judging by that final frame.
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: Eamonn Clarke on 06 December, 2017, 12:47:42 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/Kkxe57r.jpg)
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: Magnetica on 06 December, 2017, 01:17:18 pm
Well I guess it is a good thing it’s the Xmas Prog next week, because I found that a bit flat.

Dredd was ok but that last panel doesn’t make much sense if this was the last part.

I hate to say it as it has been one of my favourites over the years, but it is time to wrap Slaine up. This just feels totally flat to me and I’m just tuning out the rants / “message”. Slaine personally just looks so tired and old as well. And it might well not be popular opinion but I don’t think Simon Davis suits this. Get him back on Sinister Dexter.

I think the 3hriller format isn’t working. It’s too long to be punchy like a future shock but not long enough for much character development. This particular story was all about the twist at the end and would have been so much better as a one parter IMHO.

Absalom was the best thing this week.
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: Woolly on 06 December, 2017, 06:17:48 pm
Is it the last episode of this Dredd story though? Doesn't look like it to me.
I'm betting 2 Dredds in the Xmas prog...

I hate to say it as it has been one of my favourites over the years, but it is time to wrap Slaine up. This just feels totally flat to me and I’m just tuning out the rants / “message”. Slaine personally just looks so tired and old as well. And it might well not be popular opinion but I don’t think Simon Davis suits this.

I agree that this current Slaine tale isn't doing much for me, and this latest episode feels somewhat rushed, but I don't think it's time to wrap Slaine up just yet.
A story about him being feeling old and tired could be awesome, and just the change the strip needs.
That said, the few pages of set-up for the next book look interesting - 'Dragontamer'? Yes please!

I remember calling the Books of Invasion 'a load of old Mollochs' back in the day, but in hindsight the complete tale reads superbly and I now consider it another classic Slaine story. Maybe I'll look upon Brutania similarly one day...

I do agree that Simon Davies, brilliant as he is, isn't the best fit for Slaine. I can't really put my finger on it to be honest, and I'd certainly never want to criticise his work as it's awesome, but it just isn't working for me here.
Maybe if it was pen and inks instead of paints? I dunno.
Maybe I'm just missing Ukko   :'(
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: Proudhuff on 06 December, 2017, 06:49:54 pm
Cover: That strap line only works in a mockney accent, if you pronounce your Rs it doesn't make sense... Like  Winston's Jaw jaw/War War thing. otherwise nice use of white space
 but the promise of Slaine's final battle fair cheered me up  :D :D :D

Damage Report: CyerberMatt's a droid, why would he need a free lunch?  :lol:

This Dredd was  a story I've enjoyed, and looking forward to a rematch, still that last panel is curious.

As the 3riller
shows... that's a harder gig that a five pager..

And Slaine ... dont stones come from the earth too so are part of the mother too? no final battle, a tacked on 'and next time' which looks like a GoT rip off right from the first frame  :(


So thank Tharg for Absolam, a bit of piss splashed in front of us and a tense promise of the conflict to come. Now that's the way to doit! Best in prog for weeks IMHO.
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: Magnetica on 06 December, 2017, 07:37:29 pm
Is it the last episode of this Dredd story though? Doesn't look like it to me.
I'm betting 2 Dredds in the Xmas prog...

Just had a quick look on the Tooth website at the blurb about next week's Dredd.
There is only one strip and it is the first part of a new story, with art by Colin MacNeil.*
But...it is a continuation of this story...at least it starts off that way...so that final panel is actually fine.

Phew...glad that's sorted.


* it was the description in the back of this week's Prog that made me think it was a new story....And yes it is a different artist...but it's same writer.

So yes this could be another of t
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: Magnetica on 06 December, 2017, 07:39:15 pm
hmm pressed the wrong button and that posted it self  :'(

And just when you need it, the modify button is no where to be seen.

I was going to say this looks like another of the modern way of doing epics, i.e. multiple interlinked stories.
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: Dan Banks on 07 December, 2017, 05:45:30 am
There's a fair amount of criticism for Slaine here and I'd like to echo some of it but my biggest issue with it has got to be the lettering. Doesn't it bother anyone else? Particularly in this issue, the bubbles for the goddess and yaldaboath just don't gel with Simon Davis's exquisite paintings. It's just such an odd clash.

I'd like to stick up for Slaine a little though, even if it is just as an artists show case and token "fantasy" adventure, it does serve to add some variety to the prog and Pat can still make me chuckle every few episodes.

Do we know if SD will be returning for the next run? Or will it be someone else's chance to take on the big job?
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: Magnetica on 07 December, 2017, 06:25:23 am
There has been plenty of criticism of the lettering on Slaine on here over the last few weeks. Yes the lettering this week was hard to read, but for me the issues with the strip are far deeper than that. It used to be a fast paced exciting strip full of ideas. Now it seems ponderous and unexciting (to me anyway). I am also not on board with the so called “message” and don’t need it repeated so often.

I don’t think a comic strip should ever solely be a showcase for the art work. As Dave Gibbons has said, the art is there to tell the story.

When the story grinds to a halt, I think it is time to call it quits.
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: Tiplodocus on 07 December, 2017, 08:57:30 am
Mrs Tips has lost the charging cable for my tablet so I am progless. The brilliance of digital technology undone by the tyranny of cables.

Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: James Stacey on 07 December, 2017, 09:15:35 am
There's a fair amount of criticism for Slaine here and I'd like to echo some of it but my biggest issue with it has got to be the lettering. Doesn't it bother anyone else? Particularly in this issue, the bubbles for the goddess and yaldaboath just don't gel with Simon Davis's exquisite paintings. It's just such an odd clash.
It almost amounts to vandalism to have such poor font choice matched with such good art.
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: Steve Green on 07 December, 2017, 09:25:36 am
I don't often chip in on criticising these days, but I'm going to make an exception to the God lettering on Slaine and why I think it doesn't work at all.

Hand letterers like Tom Frame, Steve Potter, Dave Gibbons were very restrained in the use of non-standard lettering for special cases, such as the Dark Judges, Spirit Torquemada, Aliens, and the Biochips.

The heavy lifting is done by the style of the balloons, whether it's the dripping Dark Judges, twisted Torque or the scalloped balloons of the biochips, the type rarely changes.

Even in the case of the Dark Judges, dripping type is reserved for when it's needed and drops back to more regular lettering for the rest of the strip.

Examples.

(http://mindlessones.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/nemesis007-copy1.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/78/e1/5c/78e15cf0e6938a7efecd6c192d597f20--the-aliens-graphic-novel.jpg)

Dark Judges drippy
(http://nerdbastards.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/the_four_dark_judges__color__by_vorkedlarfleeze-d5xo55p22.png)

but not for the rest

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yrfYubEiNVY/WafgdMfbxkI/AAAAAAAAmzY/z196yy5WRCAwhEdC1emJT_5Rx3CWswW8QCLcBGAs/s1600/Untitled-1.jpg)


There just needs to be more attention paid as to why things worked in the past.

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: James Stacey on 07 December, 2017, 09:47:17 am
I don't often chip in on criticising these days, but I'm going to make an exception to the God lettering on Slaine and why I think it doesn't work at all.

Hand letterers like Tom Frame, Steve Potter, Dave Gibbons were very restrained in the use of non-standard lettering for special cases, such as the Dark Judges, Spirit Torquemada, Aliens, and the Biochips.

The heavy lifting is done by the style of the balloons, whether it's the dripping Dark Judges, twisted Torque or the scalloped balloons of the biochips, the type rarely changes.

Even in the case of the Dark Judges, dripping type is reserved for when it's needed and drops back to more regular lettering for the rest of the strip.
All of this! I found the Archons text ugly and jarring and the goddess text too lightweight so difficult to read. Both would have been 100% better with custom balloons and normal text. I wonder if it was direct from Uncle Pat?
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: Steve Green on 07 December, 2017, 10:20:05 am
I think he was asked about it here.

http://ecbt2000ad.libsyn.com/ecbt2000ad-ep346-an-interview-with-pat-mills (http://ecbt2000ad.libsyn.com/ecbt2000ad-ep346-an-interview-with-pat-mills)

I seem to remember the answer Pat giving as no, but not sure where in the interview it is.
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: TordelBack on 07 December, 2017, 11:25:35 am
That was an utterly bizarre episode of Slaine.  I loved (and had been hoping for) SBD's interpretation of the Goddess and it was quite brilliant, although undermined by the most unnecessarily ghastly font choice in the history of 2000AD.  I liked the shouting across the country bit, and the lead in to the next chapter with New Troy and sliced-up Terry Thomas. But in between, WTF happened?  It wasn't only that it felt like two pages had been inadvertently dropped (not suggesting this actually happened), but Slaine's whole design seemed to change between panels.  What happened? How did Slaine defeat the stone warriors? How did Goddodin escape?  Wasn't the whole fight taking place in a chambered tomb?  Why'd Yortlebuzzgubbly just give up?  Very odd indeed, and a pretty messy conclusion to an otherwise solid story with some of the best art to ever grace the prog.

Dredd.  I dunno man.  If it wasn't for the boisterous art and maybe the dog surfing, I'm not sure I'd have got anything out of this story.  Another female Sov pal for Joe? What was the reason for the paperwork nonsense at the beginning, was it really just Kafkaesque humour? Was all this fuss for access to asteroid minerals?  When the Meg already has a well-established space infrastructure, even if everything else has gone to shite? How many times did one side take/search the other for weapons?  Maybe the follow-on will make sense of it all, but not really doing it for me so far.

Absalom suffers a wee bit from Mills syndrome (making me wonder again to what extent 'the Mills' themselves are a sly jab), with the two teams lining up for their end-of-term photos, short ones at the front, bigger boys at the back.  Still, Rennie uses this beat sparingly, and limits it to a half page each, and thus it feels more like a gathering up of threads than a way to burn up an episode (or two).  the hint of negativity I detect in my reaction probably stems from my real reluctance to see this series apparently drawing to a close. 

The 3riller, while fun and very smartly turned out, didn't quite stick the landing, in the end feeling more like a lost Tale of Telguuth than a new three-parter.  Maybe some prior emphasis on the market value of hybrid blood would have given the resolution more of a feeling of closure? Personally I'd like to see more of this setting, but that may be because I felt a little short changed by what I got,

And that was our lot.  Not the best pre-Crimbo wrap-up, not the worst.

Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: IndigoPrime on 07 December, 2017, 12:25:16 pm
That was an utterly bizarre episode of Slaine.

I agree with most of that. (I don't think it was solid. One good book for me, and a load of ranty scripting.) Something something Earth Goddess stones all crumble something Sláine swings axe win? And, good grief at that lettering. The all-caps is obnoxious, but the stuff the goddess was saying was borderline unreadable. Surely, balloon shapes are enough, without grabbing a weird font that totally doesn't work in all-caps?

As for Sláine's design, I suppose it represents that he now has purpose again, and so cut his beard a bit. I dunno. I hope whatever comes next actually brings some of the fun and vigour back to Sláine, because right now it's a boring, turgid trudge.

Quote
Dredd. Another female Sov pal for Joe?
Judging by that last panel, she doesn't seem much of a pal.
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 07 December, 2017, 12:38:04 pm
The most controversial Slaine's been in years and I have no idea what the Mayor's opinion is...  :(
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: Dandontdare on 07 December, 2017, 03:55:01 pm
Quote
Dredd. Another female Sov pal for Joe?
Judging by that last panel, she doesn't seem much of a pal.

That was her deputy doing the dirty at the end, without her knowledge.
I quite enjoyed this Dredd, a good action yarn (though it wasn't very clear why a bunch of Siberian scavengers would be almost super-powered). Looks like the next story will be a straight follow on (so is it a new story at all?)

I always like when the Goddess shows up to kick butt in Slaine, though the switch from 'impossible odds' to 'chop-chop-yay we've won' (with a quip - stone killer? geddit? geddit?) totally undermined any dramatic tension. Putting my precog hat on and going by the name of the next Slaine saga, I'm guessing it will be less anti-churchy but more animal-rightsy (with Pat's usual soft-touch subtelty)

the 3riller won me over in the end - I thought the first part was a little busy and over-crowded with characters, but it was just setting the scene for a dense but fast moving tale. There was an awful lot going on in those 3 parts (enough for one of those door-stop fantasy novels that I always avoid when I see "part 3 of the second book of the whateverquest saga") and it came to a satisfying conclusion with a nice final twist. I usually have the memory of a ... of a ... (what are those little orange creatures that swim in bowls?) .... anyway, I often have trouble remembering what happened last week, but it says something about this story that I was engaged enough to pick it up each week without needing to refresh my memory from the last prog.

Absalom just ticks all my boxes, truly fantastic. Didn't appreciate just how many secondary characters we've been  introduced to until we got those two big group shots. TT's many shades of grey are as beautiful as ever.

I thought this was a very good prog, but I'm not that enthused about the Christmas offerings - rebooting an old fan-fave like Bad Company is always risky, but Savage and ABC Warriors area welcome returns.
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: Woolly on 07 December, 2017, 06:06:28 pm
The most controversial Slaine's been in years and I have no idea what the Mayor's opinion is...  :(

I would imagine lots of remarks regarding Sinead's boob tube, and lamentations that Simon Davis isn't using Harry Styles as his Slaine model.
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: Tiplodocus on 07 December, 2017, 09:19:33 pm
The most controversial Slaine's been in years and I have no idea what the Mayor's opinion is...  :(

I would imagine lots of remarks regarding Sinead's boob tube, and lamentations that Simon Davis isn't using Harry Styles as his Slaine model.

You never saw The Mayor and Harvey Weinstein posting at the same time.
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: Tiplodocus on 07 December, 2017, 11:59:17 pm
How odd. I had been enjoying this run of progs but it was only Absolom that made me think "Aw! It's finished. I hope we don't have to wait too long for the next part."
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: TordelBack on 08 December, 2017, 08:41:24 am
How odd. I had been enjoying this run of progs but it was only Absolom that made me think "Aw! It's finished. I hope we don't have to wait too long for the next part."

Nail on the head there.
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: norton canes on 08 December, 2017, 10:51:53 am
Cover: Stunning. I like the consistency with prog 2055's cover, with the angled text, nice attention to detail. If I was being super-picky I'd say it's sometimes OK to have the 2000 AD header in a different colour on a white background, rather than use a dark outer glow.

Dredd: Dog-surfing aside this has been a pretty good story, but I have to say the art has let it down on occasion. This week the meteorite strike (which was a genius plot device) was a bit... puny, really - it's a massive chunk of rock that's just hit the ground at ten times the speed of sound, it could have done with a half-page panel at least to do it justice. Anyway I'm glad the plot is carrying over - could this have been the 'Block Mania' to another 'Apocalypse War'?

Slaine: I think the key question we need to ask ourselves here is: "Dog's breakfast, or dog's dinner?" Has book 4 simply been a complete mess, or merely a case of style over substance?

One thing's for sure - that Earth Goddess typeface... oh my days. Whoever thought it would be a good idea to have a typeface with so many absurdly distracting serifs in all caps? I despair. It's an affront to the letterer's art, honestly.

And yes, it looked for all the world as if a page or more had gone missing from the end of the first part. I mean, OK, I suppose we're meant to infer that the Earth Goddess has done her job and Slaine is merely mopping up the last few stone creatures, but it looked incredibly jarring with the next installment on the facing page. Shame the excellent depiction of New Troy couldn't have been shifted to the centrespread.

Then, the page full of nothing but singing peasants... I don't know. Don't even know where to start.

Let's move on.

3riller: Still to read this one, I must admit. Needless to say it hasn't grabbed me.

Absalom: Excellent way to wrap the chapter, obviously a bit plot-lite but it makes the prospect of the next chapter even more mouth-watering.
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: norton canes on 08 December, 2017, 03:05:27 pm
Thinking about it, what they should have done is split the two Slaine episodes either side of Absalom. Because there's no way they looked like they were supposed to run together.
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: Muon on 08 December, 2017, 03:53:51 pm
I'm really looking forward to the Christmas prog.
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: TordelBack on 08 December, 2017, 05:26:47 pm
Then, the page full of nothing but singing peasants... I don't know.

I liked that bit, clever idea.
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: Proudhuff on 08 December, 2017, 06:54:17 pm
Then, the page full of nothing but singing peasants... I don't know.

I liked that bit, clever idea.

you mean it wasn't a pish take of Saturday night TV?  :-[
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: Taryn Tailz on 08 December, 2017, 10:51:50 pm
Was one of the messengers in Slaine a young Aled Jones?, cos it kind of looked like it. A bit unfortunate timing if it was. :P
Title: Re: Prog 2060 - Fighting Torc!
Post by: sheridan on 09 January, 2018, 12:51:53 pm
I liked the 3riller ending. Reminded me of Tales of Telguuth.
You weren't the only one to be reminded.