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General Chat => Off Topic => : TordelBack 05 March, 2020, 08:57:13 PM

: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 05 March, 2020, 08:57:13 PM
"Tomorrow will be worse. And the day after that. And after that... too grim to contemplate."

In the spirit of the Politics Thread, I thought we might consider self-isolating Coronavirus chat here. That way those of us who want to stare into the abyss can do so in company, and those who'd understandably rather pull the curtains and turn up the stereo don't have to hear the moans of the damned.

Starting this in the full knowledge that this isn't going to be funny, and people you love are probably going to die before this is over. So I apologise for offence in advance.

14 cases in Ireland now, doubling every day, and community transmission hasn't even started. Outgoing Govt response is to pretend there are no issues, and no actions required, so that the economy can stagger on infecting everyone for a bit longer before it keels over and dies.

*Everything* depends upon the final level of infection rates, and we here appear to have surrendered that fight without even trying.

Who'd have thought hardline communist dictatorships were ahead of the game after all?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 05 March, 2020, 09:04:45 PM
Good idea to start a new thread.  This is going to be a big one, and I don't think the enormity has hit me yet. 

I wonder what will change after this, along with the deaths.  Economies maybe. Governments.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 05 March, 2020, 09:05:49 PM
Again, a local school sent children on a skiing trip to Italy on Monday, in full knowledge that skiing holidays are where loads of infections originated. So that vector seems fun. Kids return, spread the virus to friends/parents/siblings. And then the town is fucked.

My hope is they’ll get lucky. Regardless, I wish people would stop being a mix of selfish, flippant, and ignorant about the potential dangers. (Icelanders returning from Italy were reported as having switched flights, so they could avoid quarantine. Fortunately, many of them were idiots and boasted about this on social media. Even so, that tiny country now has over 30 cases. That might not sound much, but that’s one for every 10,000 people there.)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 06 March, 2020, 08:19:11 AM
So we’ve got a climate change thread, a coronavirus thread - maybe I’ll start an asteroid thread given the close call that’s due in about a month.

I guess my only real thought on this is that it’s staggering how much media hysteria is being whipped up about a virus whose death toll remains in the 100s versus, say, deaths by car in the U.K. which number in the thousands, and actual deaths by climate change to date which already number in the millions.

On the plus side, China quarantining itself has caused a staggering drop in emissions.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 06 March, 2020, 09:33:10 AM
Unknowns are a concern. There’s no vaccine, and this virus seems rather nasty, converting to a hospitalisation condition in a fifth of people who catch it. Death rate is around 3.4%, according to the WHO. If it can be contained, we’ll probably be OK. If it can’t and it hits in one big blast, we don’t have enough hospital beds.

As for climate change, I agree, but a lot of this comes down to political will. Climate change is “in the future”, and so gets punted. This virus is “now”, and so gets _some_ attention from politicians. Although in the west, they still seem to be figuring out how many deaths they can get away with before shutting everything down. The economy remains king. As do skiing trips.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: pauljholden 06 March, 2020, 09:57:40 AM
This morning I decided we need a coronvirus plan - nothing significent, not zombie attack plan, just a general, what do we do if a) either one of the kids school finds someone infected or b) wife's shared office space does the same. These are our biggest potential vectors.

My youngest has asthma, though I think he'd be fine, but both my wife and my dad are gonna be pretty susceptable to anything and I don't want to endanger them.

Here's the plan, in the event that one of the two schools or wife's shared office reports someone has it, all of us will self isolate for two weeks. That should limit our potential to spread anything from one location to another.

We have some food for a little while (*two days probably given how my kids eat), but I've family can probably deliver stuff to our front door (or tesco's can)

After the two weeks, everything being equal, I'm sure we'll be all clear. At that point if the location is still closed off, we'll simply avoid that place until it's clear - in the meantime the rest of us can go about our business.

Gonna be a bit more careful outside our flat in the communal areas (because who knows, right?) and will probably start to buy enough in-house supplies for a two week self-isolation program if it comes to that.

But aside from that, that's largely it.

Our biggest concern is our eldest has always been funny about his health and cleanliness to the point I've been worried he'll develop OCD and we have an appointment with someone to talk about CBT to make sure it doesn't become abnormal. BUT - what he's always been doing is now the recommended advice, and he's keen to start wearing face masks (and has been for years...)

It's very hard to know where sensible planning crosses the line to panic, but I hope I've struck a balance.



: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 06 March, 2020, 10:49:29 AM
That's basically our Plan too, although we have added an appendix outlining which pet we'll eat first.  Saves arguments later.  The big worry for me is how to continue to provide care for two elderly and unwell relatives.

While I agree that the media have been driven to ecstatic heights by their newest click-enhancer, I don't think there is any hysteria whatsoever in the WHO numbers - and those are absolutely dire if infection rates even get out of single digits. With a mortality rate 20-40 times that of recent flu's, and even the young and fit as likely to die of C-19 as the most elderly crock is of seasonal flu (0.2%), plus a huge number of Chinese victims still in critical care, I think it's a very, very serious situation indeed. With 1 in 5 victims requiring hospital care, and about 1 in 25 requiring ICU, it only takes the smallest of infection rates to utterly overwhelm our health services.

I've said it before here, but here it is again: 250 ICU beds in Ireland (and a promise of 20 more), which means we have to keep the infection rate below 0.25% (about 11,000 victims total) at any one time or people will be dying at way above the predicted levels.  That's not far off the same level of hospitalisations as seasonal flu, against which the elderly, vulnerable and frontline staff are vaccinated, as well as the responsible chunk of the rest of us. So in the absence of a vaccine, and a long incubation period, why would we believe C-19 infections will stay below that number?

When there are no more ventilators left, watch that mortality rate soar.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 06 March, 2020, 10:51:32 AM
I'm trialling a reverse-isolation strategy. Every time someone coughs in my vicinity, I drag them into an alley and kill them with a baseball bat. It's the only way to be sure.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 06 March, 2020, 11:21:30 AM
While I'm reasonably confident of my own ability to protect myself from this virus, and follow basic common sense and decency when it comes to coughing or sneezing etiquette, that most certainly does not extend to my fellow humans. Case in point: just a few weeks ago, the guy behind the counter in Teco's - who was clearly afflicted with a cold or chest infection of some kind or other - sneezed right into his hand, before then proffering my change from the purchase towards me. I told him to put it in the charity box!

And don't get me started on public transport. Just a couple of months ago during the height of flu season, the amount of mank-bags on buses and trams, coughing, sneezing and hacking without even bothering to cover their gobs or expel their sputum into a tissue was staggering. It was like travelling on mobile petri dishes!

I will soon be refraining from using public transport and going shank's mare instead until this crisis has passed.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 06 March, 2020, 12:23:08 PM
It’s bad enough at schools. Mini-G (5) is super at sneezing/coughing properly, but comes back almost every day saying how other kids at her school don’t do that. But then I was recently on a train with some grumpy 20yo (or thereabouts) sitting on the floor, coughing into the air. Thanks, germ spreader!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 06 March, 2020, 12:44:16 PM
In terms of preparedness, we’ve had a rolling stock of 6 months supplies of food and essentials ever since the first Brexit date rolled around. We could self-isolate right now and come out in a month having probably put on weight from stuffing our faces out of boredom.

Re the numbers cited above, I bow to the findings of the number crunchers - not my area of expertise. It is tough to find calm, rational info amid the noise, but if that is what WHO say I’m not about to argue with the scientists. Unless of course I see some YouTube videos about it being a big conspiracy to sell more Andrex.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IAMTHESYSTEM 06 March, 2020, 01:55:09 PM
I think Judge Dredd advised us to 'Wash our hands,' so there's some sage advice for everyone. Not looking too good, is it? I'm reading The Modern Mercenary by Sean Mcfate and according to him, the 14th Century is about to return, with private Mercenary Corps devastating parts of the globe on behalf of Governments and Private Monies. Couple that with disease pandemics like the current Coronavirus, migration waves as civilians try to escape war zones and powerful technology like A.I Spy Drones, you can see how bad this Century could become. "Vive la mort, Vive la Guerre, Vive le sacré mercenaire" (Long live death, long live war, long live the cursed mercenary)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Dandontdare 06 March, 2020, 03:13:09 PM
I'm off to Lanzarote in the morning and I've got a hacking (smoker's) cough - shouldn't have trouble getting a seat at the airport!

I'm more worried about Ryanair still being in business in a week's time than catching the bug.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: moly 06 March, 2020, 06:36:06 PM
Due to go to Singapore and Thailand beginning of April so that should be interesting if the planes are actually flying then
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 06 March, 2020, 07:05:17 PM
Recovering from another lung virus, and my knee surgery, and my first ever full-blown panic attack (post-op stress), my psyche is quietly gibbering in a corner in utter terror because ... I don't wanna die!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 06 March, 2020, 08:33:45 PM
2000AD Squaxxes ...https://memes.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/8ffdaa45-b421-4689-85d6-e324d856920e

You hang in there, Funt and stay strong!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Dandontdare 06 March, 2020, 09:08:09 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/YYahq1u.jpg?1)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: judgeurko 06 March, 2020, 09:34:33 PM


Starting this in the full knowledge that this isn't going to be funny, and people you love are probably going to die before this is over. So I apologise for offence in advance.


WTF? You know this for a fact. What a morbid little soul you are.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Mister Pops 06 March, 2020, 10:17:47 PM


Starting this in the full knowledge that this isn't going to be funny, and people you love are probably going to die before this is over. So I apologise for offence in advance.


WTF? You know this for a fact. What a morbid little soul you are.

Yeah Tordels, stop being so morbid. This time next year we'll all be laughing about this...







...well most of us will...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 06 March, 2020, 10:49:57 PM
Predicted global infection rate of 60-70% because of the lengthy incubation period in which the disease is transmissible but presents no symptoms, a 3% death rate that climbs higher with each new fatality (currently at 3.4% but I rounded down) - statistically, if you know 12 people who fit the mortality profile of being old, young, or having a medical condition, then you'll be going to a funeral in the next 12 months.
I tried to do the sums on this - 3% of 60% of 7.7 billion for the low-end number of eventual fatalities - but I don't know how to do percentages on a calculator so I will just assume the end number is not great.

Of course, maybe the government will contain this and we're worrying about nothing.  As long as someone competent is in charge and people's well-being is put before other considerations, this is still containable.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Steve Green 06 March, 2020, 10:53:46 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ESaXzXaU0AEIXjL?format=jpg&name=medium)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 07 March, 2020, 12:31:37 AM
Predicted global infection rate of 60-70% because of the lengthy incubation period in which the disease is transmissible but presents no symptoms, a 3% death rate that climbs higher with each new fatality (currently at 3.4% but I rounded down) - statistically, if you know 12 people who fit the mortality profile of being old, young, or having a medical condition, then you'll be going to a funeral in the next 12 months.
I tried to do the sums on this - 3% of 60% of 7.7 billion for the low-end number of eventual fatalities - but I don't know how to do percentages on a calculator so I will just assume the end number is not great.

Of course, maybe the government will contain this and we're worrying about nothing.  As long as someone competent is in charge and people's well-being is put before other considerations, this is still containable.

136.8 million.

Percentage on a calc is you divide by 100, so the sum was 0.03 * 0.6 * 7.7.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 07 March, 2020, 01:05:34 AM


Starting this in the full knowledge that this isn't going to be funny, and people you love are probably going to die before this is over. So I apologise for offence in advance.


WTF? You know this for a fact. What a morbid little soul you are.

I'll rephrase this: in my extremely amateur opinion, if we dont keep infection rates improbably low, and unless you dont love many elderly/vulnerable people, someone you love is probanly going to die of this shit in the next year or so. Better?

For myself, I love at least five people who absolutely must not catch this virus. I may be spoiled with living relatives, friends and in-laws of my and my parent's generation and/or with contraindicated health conditions whose loss in this disaster would break my heart, so I acknowledge that bias.

The rest is primary school maths. I hope I'm still as shit at it as my teachers said I was.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 07 March, 2020, 08:02:09 AM
.... a 3% death rate that climbs higher with each new fatality (currently at 3.4% but I rounded down) -

It is worth exercising caution on the mortality rate.  As a range of folks have observed, this is based on reported cases with more severe symptoms. The present infection rate is possibly higher which would affect these figures.  Ultimately what we are dealing with right now is a moving average with insufficient data points to be able to arrive at a  definitive figure.

Whilst Trump might not have been the most eloquent in his phraseology, his contention that the actual figure is closer to 1% is actually supported by experts (sorry Michael ...).

What is potentially more pertinent, and especially for those of us with older / infirm relatives, is the variability with age and comorbidity.  The figures are skewed heavily towards those in later years and with cardio-pulmonary conditions.  I guess the old 'an ounce of prevention is better than a ton of cure' is highly relevant here.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 07 March, 2020, 08:40:24 AM
The logic there is that actual infection numbers (X) are higher than detected/recorded, therefore mortality rates (Y) are lower. But (very crudely) No. of Deaths = X*Y, so I'm not sure that an increase in one term and reduction in the other is automatically as good as it sounds when it comes to numbers instead of rates.

Also, 1% is still terrible. The 2018 Irish flu season killed 250 directly plus 600 indirectly through pneumonia etc, at 0.1% mortality. At an equivalent infection rate, the low-end 1% rate for C-19 would 8,500.

And most significantly, that number is with flu vaccination uptake of over 70% of elderly and those with health-conditions, and over 50% of frontline health staff (although why that isn't 100% I don't understand).

It really is all about keeping the numbers of infections down.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IAMTHESYSTEM 07 March, 2020, 09:47:46 AM
You could be cynical and argue a pandemic would be in a lot of people interests. It mainly affects the elderly and infirm, so why not let it circulate a little, relieving your society of financial burdens care wise? A cure or a vaccine might be six months away at the earliest, and there are already indications that it will be expensive. Opportunity for money-making abound in such a scenario, and I have no doubt Pharmacists will be posting excellent profits next year.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 07 March, 2020, 10:20:51 AM
It really is all about keeping the numbers of infections down.

Aye.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that variance in the mortality rates is giving a rosier picture, just that there is a need to approach the data sensibly.  The simple fact of the matter is that it is a dynamic situation.

Someone from the WHO that has been out to China recently to examine their approach to the situation was talking on the radio this morning about their successes.  A lot has been made about the more 'draconian' measures that have been put in place but he offered up a different explanation.  More about the other areas of China rather than the epicentre.

As he noted, community response contributed significantly to lower rates of transmission as individuals took responsibility for their own health.  Individuals were taking effective steps to avoid transmission and there was a sense of collective responsibility.  Communities are, as he argued, the most effective early warning system.  Locating and isolating quickly is key.

Perhaps part of the problem we may face is a more individualistic / entitled culture?  The tendency to blame rather than own, to want to claim rather than act more responsibly?  People have been taking the p*** out of Johnson for his comments about washing hands but simple personal responsibility such as effective hygiene is what the medics recommend.

Much as it pains me, Thatcher had a bit of a point with the old "there is no such thing as society, only the individual."  Society only works when individuals recognise their rights and their responsibilities.  It got totally bastardised along the way but there is something valid at its core.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 07 March, 2020, 10:46:11 AM
Society only works when individuals recognise their rights and their responsibilities. 

Uncanny - was only talking about this last night, about how infantilised people’s reactions have become about accepting blame. Very few people accept responsibility for their actions - it always seems to be the fault of something else. As a result, there’s no ownership, no learning, no growing, and no positive collective improvement for society. Society starts with personal responsibility.

I think the discussion arose due to behaviour on the roads. For example, around our way folk seem to be treating red lights as advisory. Then when accidents inevitably happen the response is “well, that’s a stupid place to put the lights” or “they never stay green long enough so I’m forced to race the red” etc etc etc.

So if that failure of personal responsibility is happening when folk are in charge of a tonne of fast moving dangerous machinery, which then is collectively becoming a societal issue, I dread to thing how this sense of individual entitlement will affect the spread of this virus.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 07 March, 2020, 12:56:47 PM

Fascinating conversation, chaps - seriously.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 07 March, 2020, 01:53:28 PM
An interesting theme came up at a work drinks last night, from a few independent sources. The type of responses to this crisis that we are prepared to entertain are very telling. We had found ourselves saying things like "they can't cancel Cheltenham!", "they can't lay us off and trap us on our homes for a month!" or (for one developed example) "they can't close the schools, think what it'll do to exam results, and the knock-on on for college places!".

And then there's this moment of realisation that we made all this shit up - we decided (for example) how education works, when terms are, how university admission works. These aren't properties of the universe, they aren't real - and we don't need to be bound by them, we can change them any way we see fit in the service of things that are real: life, health, a future.

As a group of archaeologists, we above all people should already have been conscious of just how momentary, how contingent, how atypical our way of life is. But faced with an immediate unavoidable global crisis, for the first time in our pampered peacetime lives, it actually broke through. We can change everything if we need to, just as people always have. Parades, holidays, sporting events - all this stuff seems like it has to be, but it wasn't and it doesn't.

Sophmoric drink-fuelled pablum, I grant you- but the interesting bit was the realisation that maybe the instant scalding effect of a probable pandemic can help with the boiling-a-frog problem of climate change. Maybe learning suddenly and collectively as a society that we can contemplate radically adapting our ways of life in order to sustain our one-and-only lives will grant us the courage to do the same for climate.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 07 March, 2020, 06:40:04 PM
Funnily enough there have been discussions around what to do if the scare affects schools and colleges.  Universities debating how to reschedule the start of the year, primary schools talking about cancelling SATs and league tables ...

It's quite amazing how liberating it is when you realise that you can let go of crap that you thought was so important (okay, but I'm not giving up the Tooth ...)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: pauljholden 07 March, 2020, 06:49:45 PM
Can assure you, the entire creative community has been self-isolating for decades...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 07 March, 2020, 07:24:36 PM
If I had my way, any bastard found profiteering from this virus and the - entirely understandable - fear it is causing in people, would be stood up against a wall and shot.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/hand-sanitisers-selling-for-more-than-5000-above-recommended-uk-prices-online-986438.html

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 07 March, 2020, 07:31:51 PM
Can assure you, the entire creative community has been self-isolating for decades...

... and has been frequently observed recently, so is our inestimable Prime Minister ...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 08 March, 2020, 11:57:25 AM
North Italy now in lockdown. 1200 new confirmed cases in 24h. Everyone suddenly discovering what ‘exponential’ means. And we are, what, a week behind? No chance of shutting the door before the horse bolts.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 08 March, 2020, 01:47:28 PM
I think the discussion arose due to behaviour on the roads. For example, around our way folk seem to be treating red lights as advisory. Then when accidents inevitably happen the response is “well, that’s a stupid place to put the lights” or “they never stay green long enough so I’m forced to race the red” etc etc etc.

So if that failure of personal responsibility is happening when folk are in charge of a tonne of fast moving dangerous machinery, which then is collectively becoming a societal issue, I dread to thing how this sense of individual entitlement will affect the spread of this virus.
Tell me about it - I pass about six or seven junctions every day where between two to four cars, vans and lorries go through red lights every single time the lights change (they also have to screech around a corner on a few of the junctions).
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: moly 08 March, 2020, 05:56:51 PM
Hoping Italy is the exception and not the norm, figures just released are horrendous 133 dead in one day, 25% increase in infections, if I was religious I'd pray
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 08 March, 2020, 06:54:32 PM
Even our HSE are now openly 'preparing' for the median guess of 40% infection. That's 500,000 requiring hospitalisation, which is like a sick joke.  And depending on the pace of spread, my amateur calculations put that at a (conservative) outcome of 50,000 dead.

I went to my parents today to beg them not to go out to any shop or public place, i would deliver anything they needed but if they didn't take this absolutely seriously I would likely not be seeing one or other of them again. They are both pushing 80, my Dad is a diabetic with two types of  advanced cancer and a history of heart disease, and my mother is exhausted caring for him.  I told them that when they were suffocating to death on a blanket on the floor of the parish hall I wouldn't be permitted to visit them, and there'd likely be no funeral. I hope I got through, but I doubt it.

Call me morbid, call me cruel, call me psychotic. This is where I believe we are.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tiplodocus 08 March, 2020, 07:20:08 PM
The fannies downp our way have emptied the shelves of loo roll.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 08 March, 2020, 08:05:03 PM
There's selfishness and then there's selfishness!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 08 March, 2020, 09:45:32 PM
Even our HSE are now openly 'preparing' for the median guess of 40% infection. That's 500,000 requiring hospitalisation, which is like a sick joke.  And depending on the pace of spread, my amateur calculations put that at a (conservative) outcome of 50,000 dead.

I went to my parents today to beg them not to go out to any shop or public place, i would deliver anything they needed but if they didn't take this absolutely seriously I would likely not be seeing one or other of them again. They are both pushing 80, my Dad is a diabetic with two types of  advanced cancer and a history of heart disease, and my mother is exhausted caring for him.  I told them that when they were suffocating to death on a blanket on the floor of the parish hall I wouldn't be permitted to visit them, and there'd likely be no funeral. I hope I got through, but I doubt it.

Call me morbid, call me cruel, call me psychotic. This is where I believe we are.

I really hope your folks are ok.  My parents are of a similar age - my dad is ridiculously healthy despite daily blood-thinning medication, but my mam is struggling with a heart problem that led to a minor stroke two years ago.  They live in a fairly rural part of a small town, so I hope that goes some way towards keeping them safe.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 09 March, 2020, 10:17:49 AM
Wishing all of you and yours the best folks. My partner is type 1 Diabetic, and between this and the coming Brexit worries over insulin, it is just a very worrying and uncertain time.

Things look to be taking a dark turn in some parts of the world, and to see the ignorance and lack of empathy on display in some quarters just makes me despair.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Buttonman 09 March, 2020, 07:15:28 PM
The fannies downp our way have emptied the shelves of loo roll.

Arseholes surely?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 09 March, 2020, 08:36:36 PM
Fannies are arseholes, where I live.

(Not a sentence I ever imagined using.)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 09 March, 2020, 09:57:49 PM
To paraphrase Bill Bryson: 'Americans. They call a slut a tramp, a tramp a bum, a bum a fanny, and a fanny... well, we've covered that.'

The Paddy's Day festivities have been cancelled, all over the country. A shame, but it's definitely the right thing to do.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: ZenArcade 10 March, 2020, 09:48:04 AM
My take simply is the evident inertia on behalf of the authorities has a purpose.  They've simply done a numbers game and figured 40 - 80% of the population will contract the virus and anywhere between 1 - 4% will die. 

They'll attempt to gradually raise the intensity of counter-measures in an effort to retard the spread and give medical services time to: A - Cope with the spread and B - Hopefully come up with a workable anti-virus treatment in 10 - 12 months time.

The difficulties are, I suppose, the arguably cynical nature of any numbers game where people and populations are concerned, coupled with the unknowns re the strength of the virus in question and the stresses on an already denuded public health infra-structure and the economy in general.  Z
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 10 March, 2020, 11:12:41 AM
The UK should be doing an Italy right now, and supporting gig economy workers and the vulnerable. We are a week ahead, and can use that time or not. The not option results in a slew of infections very rapidly, and an overwhelmed health service where there just aren’t enough ventilators and ICU places.

Right now, our government looks out of its depth – like rabbits in headlights. It’s all but admitted defeat in terms of containment. But doing an Italy next week will be too late. (Notably, the corporate I write for accelerated its contingency planning. So they’ve already tested 100% WFH with my team and presumably most others. Any company that has the capability to do this should be trying the same right now.)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 10 March, 2020, 11:28:00 AM
Isn't a pandemic caused by not giving the serving staff some days off the premise of Kids Rule OK?  I'd suggest Rebellion get on a collected edition, but most of the target audience won't be around to read it.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 10 March, 2020, 11:51:40 AM
Locals are being complacent and arguing everything will be fine. Meanwhile, our town now has a confirmed case – one of the Natwest bank staff. So the branch is closed and everyone who works there is self-isolating for a week. But that means every person who recently went in there is now at risk, and those who they interacted with, and…

I was at the GP’s earlier, and overheard staff talking about someone self-isolating and saying (sadly) “and we’ve done all we can for them”. Quite why the government is just bobbling along with this, I’ve no idea. (My guess: the UK will end up shut down within a fortnight when infections sky-rocket, when the damage could have been limited.)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 10 March, 2020, 02:01:13 PM
Irish funeral directors association have today advised no funerals for C-19 victims, due mainly to the high risk to their staff that family members are also infected.

We're now just a hop and a skip away from 'wrap the family member's body in a black binliner and place outside the front door for collection".
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 10 March, 2020, 02:08:45 PM
TBH I get some of the reservations over shutting everything down just yet.  What baffles me though is that foreign travel is still being allowed to go on, particularly things like school trips to Disneyland Paris.  Send kids crammed on a coach for several hours to a site visited by people from all over Europe, bring them back on the same coach, and pray that they dodged the bullet?

Kids might be disappointed at missing out on the trip but isn't that a small price to pay?  Or am I just being naive?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 10 March, 2020, 02:29:23 PM
I don’t think you are. Kids from our town last week went on a skiing trip to Italy, despite Italian ski resorts being a key infection vector. Kids will probably mostly be fine. Reports suggest if they get anything at all, it’s a bit of a sore throat. But infections blaze around schools, infect staff, end up with parents, and end up with grandparents. It can all happen insanely quickly.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 10 March, 2020, 02:53:00 PM
I work in an English school. We have a small staff room and share classrooms.  One of our teachers was off today with restricted breathing and a temperature.  I'll keep yous posted.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 10 March, 2020, 08:05:23 PM
Hell's Bells, Jayzus! Keeping my fingers crossed that you and yours will be okay. Ditto for Tordelback and, it goes without saying - but I'll say it anyway! - all the rest of my fellow Squaxx.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 10 March, 2020, 10:08:06 PM
Thanks, Paddy. You stay safe too; you've been through the wars lately!

 BTW I sent you a pm recently, not sure if you got it.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 10 March, 2020, 10:25:43 PM
I work in an English school.

Sheesh!  Those bloody English ...

Take care though.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 11 March, 2020, 12:15:54 AM
Right. I will apologise if this seems alarmist, but I read it and my blood ran cold. If this info is correct I feel it is more dangerous not to post it.

Below is the English translation of a post that appears to be from an ICU physician in Bergamo, Dr. Daniele Macchini.

Original website here:

https://www.ecodibergamo.it/stories/bergamo-citta/con-le-nostre-azioni-influenziamola-vita-e-la-morte-di-molte-persone_1344030_11/

Translated from the Italian:

«With our actions we influence the life and death of many people »

 With a long post on Facebook, Dr. Daniele Macchini, a doctor at Humanitas Gavazzeni, talks about his life on the front lines to combat coronavirus.  It is a creepy testimony, to be read from the first to the last line.


The post reads:

 In one of the constant emails that I receive from my health department on a more than daily basis now these days, there was also a paragraph entitled "doing social responsibly", with some recommendations that can only be supported.  After thinking for a long time if and what to write about what is happening to us, I felt that the silence was not at all responsible.  I will therefore try to convey to people "not involved in the work" and more distant from our reality, what we are experiencing in Bergamo during these pandemic days from Covid-19.  I understand the need not to panic, but when the message of the danger of what is happening does not reach people and I still feel who cares about the recommendations and people who gather together complaining that they cannot go to the gym or be able to do soccer tournaments  I shudder.

 I also understand the economic damage and I am also worried about that.  After the epidemic, the tragedy will start again.  However, apart from the fact that we are literally also devastating our NHS from an economic point of view, I allow myself to raise the importance of the health damage that is likely throughout the country and I find it nothing short of "chilling" for example  that a red zone already requested by the region has not yet been established for the municipalities of Alzano Lombardo and Nembro (I would like to clarify that this is pure personal opinion).

 I myself looked with some amazement at the reorganizations of the entire hospital in the previous week, when our current enemy was still in the shadows: the wards slowly "emptied", the elective activities interrupted, the intensive therapies freed to create  as many beds as possible.  Containers arriving in front of the emergency room to create diversified routes and avoid any infections.  All this rapid transformation brought in the corridors of the hospital an atmosphere of surreal silence and emptiness that we still did not understand, waiting for a war that was yet to begin and that many (including me) were not so sure would never come with such ferocity  .  (I open a parenthesis: all this in silence and without publicity, while several newspapers had the courage to say that private health care was not doing anything).

 I still remember my night guard a week ago passed unnecessarily without turning a blind eye, waiting for a call from the microbiology of the Sack.  I was waiting for the outcome of a swab on the first suspected patient in our hospital, thinking about what consequences it would have for us and the clinic.  If I think about it, my agitation for one possible case seems almost ridiculous and unjustified, now that I have seen what is happening.

 Well, the situation is now nothing short of dramatic.  No other words come to mind.  The war has literally exploded and the battles are uninterrupted day and night.  One after the other, the unfortunate poor come to the emergency room.  They have anything but the complications of a flu.  Let's stop saying it's a bad flu.  In these 2 years I have learned that the people of Bergamo do not come to the emergency room at all.  They did well this time too.  They followed all the indications given: a week or ten days at home with a fever without going out and risking contagion, but now they can't take it anymore.  They don't breathe enough, they need oxygen.

 Drug therapies for this virus are few.  The course mainly depends on our organism.  We can only support it when it can't take it anymore.  It is mainly hoped that our body will eradicate the virus on its own, let's face it.  Antiviral therapies are experimental on this virus and we learn its behavior day after day.  Staying at home until the symptoms worsen does not change the prognosis of the disease.

 Now, however, that need for beds in all its drama has arrived.  One after the other, the departments that had been emptied are filling up at an impressive rate.  The display boards with the names of the patients, in different colors depending on the operating unit they belong to, are now all red and instead of the surgical operation there is the diagnosis, which is always the same damn: bilateral interstitial pneumonia.

 Now, tell me which flu virus causes such a rapid tragedy.  Because that's the difference (now I'm going down a bit in the technical field): in the classical flu, apart from infecting much less population over several months, cases can be complicated less frequently, only when the VIRUS destroying the protective barriers of the  Our respiratory tract allows BACTERIA normally resident in the upper tract to invade the bronchi and lungs, causing more serious cases.  Covid 19 causes a banal influence in many young people, but in many elderly people (and not only) a real SARS because it arrives directly in the alveoli of the lungs and infects them making them unable to perform their function.  The resulting respiratory failure is often serious and after a few days of hospitalization, the simple oxygen that can be administered in a ward may not be enough.

 Sorry, but to me as a doctor it doesn't reassure you that the most serious are mainly elderly people with other pathologies.  The elderly population is the most represented in our country and it is difficult to find someone who, above 65 years of age, does not take at least the tablet for pressure or diabetes.  I also assure you that when you see young people who end up in intubated intensive care, pronated or worse in ECMO (a machine for the worst cases, which extracts the blood, re-oxygenates it and returns it to the body, waiting for the organism,  hopefully, heal your lungs), all this tranquility for your young age passes.

 And while there are still people on social networks who pride themselves on not being afraid by ignoring the indications, protesting that their normal lifestyle habits are "temporarily" in crisis, the epidemiological disaster is taking place.  And there are no more surgeons, urologists, orthopedists, we are only doctors who suddenly become part of a single team to face this tsunami that has overwhelmed us.  The cases multiply, we arrive at the rate of 15-20 hospitalizations a day all for the same reason.  The results of the swabs now come one after the other: positive, positive, positive.  Suddenly the emergency room is collapsing.

 Emergency provisions are issued: help is needed in the emergency room.  A quick meeting to learn how the first aid management software works and a few minutes later they are already downstairs, next to the warriors on the war front.  The screen of the PC with the reasons for the access is always the same: fever and respiratory difficulty, fever and cough, respiratory insufficiency etc ... Exams, radiology always with the same sentence: bilateral interstitial pneumonia, bilateral interstitial pneumonia, bilateral interstitial pneumonia.  All to be hospitalized.  Someone already to intubate and go to intensive care.  For others it is late ...

 Intensive care becomes saturated, and where intensive care ends, more are created.  Each fan becomes like gold: those of the operating rooms that have now suspended their non-urgent activity become places for intensive care that did not exist before.  I found it incredible, or at least I can speak for Humanitas Gavazzeni (where I work) how it was possible to put in place in such a short time a deployment and a reorganization of resources so finely designed to prepare for a disaster of this magnitude.  And every reorganization of beds, wards, staff, work shifts and tasks is constantly reviewed day after day to try to give everything and even more.

 Those wards that previously looked like ghosts are now saturated, ready to try to give their best for the sick, but exhausted.  The staff is exhausted.  I saw fatigue on faces that didn't know what it was despite the already grueling workloads they had.  I have seen people still stop beyond the times they used to stop already, for overtime that was now habitual.  I saw solidarity from all of us, who never failed to go to our internist colleagues to ask "what can I do for you now?"  or "leave that hospitalization alone."  Doctors who move beds and transfer patients, who administer therapies instead of nurses.  Nurses with tears in their eyes because we are unable to save everyone and the vital signs of several patients at the same time reveal a fate that has already been marked.

 There are no more shifts, schedules.  Social life is suspended for us.  I have been separated for a few months, and I assure you that I have always done everything possible to constantly see my son even on the days of taking the night off, without sleeping and postponing sleep until when I am without him, but for almost 2 weeks I have not voluntarily  I see neither my son nor my family members for fear of infecting them and in turn infecting an elderly grandmother or relatives with other health problems.  I'm happy with some photos of my son that I regard between tears and a few video calls.

 So be patient too, you can't go to the theater, museums or gym.  Try to have mercy on that myriad of older people you could exterminate.  It is not your fault, I know, but of those who put it in your head that you are exaggerating and even this testimony may seem just an exaggeration for those who are far from the epidemic, but please, listen to us, try to leave the house only to  indispensable things.  Do not go en masse to stock up in supermarkets: it is the worst thing because you concentrate and the risk of contacts with infected people who do not know they are higher.  You can go there as you usually do.  Maybe if you have a normal mask (even those that are used to do certain manual work) put it on.  Don't look for ffp2 or ffp3.  Those should serve us and we are beginning to struggle to find them.  By now we have had to optimize their use only in certain circumstances, as the WHO recently suggested in view of their almost ubiquitous impoverishment.

 Oh yes, thanks to the shortage of certain devices, I and many other colleagues are certainly exposed despite all the means of protection we have.  Some of us have already become infected despite the protocols.  Some infected colleagues also have infected relatives and some of their family members are already struggling between life and death.  We are where your fears could make you stay away.  Try to make sure you stay away.  Tell your family members who are elderly or with other illnesses to stay indoors.  Bring him the groceries please.

 We have no alternative.  It's our job.  In fact, what I do these days is not really the job I'm used to, but I do it anyway and I will like it as long as it responds to the same principles: try to make some sick people feel better and heal, or even just alleviate the suffering and the  pain to those who unfortunately cannot heal.

 On the other hand, I don't spend many words about the people who define us heroes these days and who until yesterday were ready to insult and report us.  Both will return to insult and report as soon as everything is over.  People forget everything quickly.  And we're not even heroes these days.  It's our job.  We risked something bad every day before: when we put our hands in a belly full of blood of someone we don't even know if he has HIV or hepatitis C;  when we do it even if we know that he has HIV or hepatitis C;  when we sting with the one with HIV and take the drugs that make us vomit from morning to night for a month.  When we open with the usual anguish the results of the examinations at the various checks after an accidental puncture hoping not to be infected.  We simply earn our living with something that gives us emotions.  It doesn't matter if they are beautiful or ugly, just take them home.

 In the end we only try to make ourselves useful for everyone.  Now try to do it too though: with our actions we influence the life and death of a few dozen people.  You with yours, many more.  Please share and share the message.  We must spread the word to prevent what is happening here in Italy.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 11 March, 2020, 12:29:57 AM
It appears to be real:

https://www.facebook.com/100000176383731/posts/3395152210500625/?d=n
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 11 March, 2020, 07:04:56 AM
I suspect the UK will follow Italy’s lockdown, but it will also be after the horse has bolted. Italy had an excuse: it didn’t know what it was dealing with. We do – and our government isn’t up to the task.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IAMTHESYSTEM 11 March, 2020, 11:32:13 AM
With quite a lot of elderly conservative voters under threat from this Coronavirus, you'd think the Government would be more proactive, concerned that its core voter block might become depleted by this growing epidemic. Now the Health Minister Nadine Norries has tested positive for Coronavirus, a massive blow against 'situation under control' both in metaphor and reassurance. There appears to be no plan, except to take the hit and hope it's not too catastrophic.   
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Cyberleader2000 11 March, 2020, 12:49:22 PM
so I live in Tewkesbury and I'm now anoyed with Cheltenham they decided to not stop Race week people come all acros the contrey for that event some even come from abord, I feel this was a really stupid move.
it dosent help that ~I need to go out today to a meeting and have to take a bus or a 50 minute walk since the bus I need to take passes through Cheltenham, and of corses everon in my area is eaither like it will be fine, I even know people who just think its a nastey cold. then theres the panic buyers enough said about them.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 11 March, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
I share your annoyance, Cyberleader. Had there been an outbreak of Foot and Mouth, you can be damn sure that the entire event would have been cancelled. I'm even more pissed off with the selfish, stupid morons who travelled here from the Emerald Isle to a venue - that will attract crowds of up to 65,000 - where they could quite possibly contract this virus, bring it back to this country and potentially infect thousands more. Absolute and utter wank-stains, every fucking one of them!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 11 March, 2020, 03:39:19 PM
Stories leaking out on Facebook / Whatsapp that a Department For Communities Office in Belfast has been shut down, with staff not allowed to leave building, an entire floor shut off whilst they await the arrival of higher management to make an announcement.

Bizarrely, the fella who made the post on a Facebook group, has now taken the post down. I used to work with him, and am finding this all rather bizarre, frightening and wondering when some proper leadership and assurances will be provided by my management, my elected representatives and actual people who know what they are talking about!

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 11 March, 2020, 05:20:52 PM
Absolute and utter wank-stains, every fucking one of them!

There are people on Irish social media this very minute offering their oh-so-edgy opinion that C-19 only kills those who "are waiting at Death's door anyway" so we should just carry on as normal and escape economic ruin.  I think if we're going to take this pragmatic tone, everyone returning from Cheltenham should be quickly and humanely killed before they have a chance to kill their parents - and mine.

As the WHO conference today said, the real problem is that our social and health systems are pared to the bone, and have zero capacity to absorb this kind of crisis. In the light of onrushing climate collapse, I pray to my atheist gods that that we learn this lesson.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 11 March, 2020, 05:28:36 PM
Time and again I am so grateful that I use SM sparingly.  That said, MSM can be just as bad.  Some of the stories the Express is peddling are beyond belief. 

So now the WHO has called this a pandemic and is scathing about the international response.  Even Trump is trying to walk back his earlier blasé attitude it seems.  The overriding message seems to be though that neoliberalism is about to come up against some pretty harsh truths.  A decade of cutting back on those seeming inessentials ...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Cyberleader2000 11 March, 2020, 08:13:01 PM
Absolute and utter wank-stains, every fucking one of them!

There are people on Irish social media this very minute offering their oh-so-edgy opinion that C-19 only kills those who "are waiting at Death's door anyway" so we should just carry on as normal and escape economic ruin.  I think if we're going to take this pragmatic tone, everyone returning from Cheltenham should be quickly and humanely killed before they have a chance to kill their parents - and mine.

Don't get me started I has asma and the last 3 times I've had a cold I got a chest infection the first one and the last 2 times I got close to having one. So I'm rather conserened with getting this bug, but people tell me I should not worry and it's just a nasty cold that affects people with health problems. But I can't think of it just affecting me there's my brother and my gran who I help and support so I have to be super carfule. And for the first time since my dad died am I a little glad he isent round as he had COPD and if he was still around I know I would have been loosing my mind with stress from people's lack of care and awereness.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JOE SOAP 11 March, 2020, 08:55:20 PM
Stories leaking out on Facebook / Whatsapp that a Department For Communities Office in Belfast has been shut down, with staff not allowed to leave building, an entire floor shut off whilst they await the arrival of higher management to make an announcement.

Bizarrely, the fella who made the post on a Facebook group, has now taken the post down. I used to work with him, and am finding this all rather bizarre, frightening and wondering when some proper leadership and assurances will be provided by my management, my elected representatives and actual people who know what they are talking about!

The whole island needs a cross-border disease policy. There was a reason Foot and Mouth never took hold in Ireland but catastrophic in Britain.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 11 March, 2020, 10:01:07 PM
So my workplace is on a war footing. Lots of advice and updates issued daily via HR, loads of signs and hand sanitizers going up everywhere.  Recalled 500 laptops from around the business, big discussions about setting up work-from-home remote access as quickly as possible for essential and high risk staff. I’m on that list due to asthma. It’s quite reassuring - more so than the pathetic response from our glorious Dicktator Johnson.

Someone in the office opposite us was a confirmed case. The entire building has been shut down for a deep clean.

If I get this virus I am in trouble. My asthma has almost killed me once already - I really don’t think I’ll make it through a bout of bilateral interstitial pneumonia, which appears to be what is causing the high mortality rate in the folk over 60 who contract COVID-19.


: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 11 March, 2020, 10:14:22 PM
Stsy safe, Shaolin-monkey. It's bloody scary.

 Talked to my eldest lad tonight about pulling him out of school, whether it would affect any of his continual assessment work.  He wants to stay in until Friday, as it turns out that all week they've been prepping over a month's worth of projects and assignments that they can do and submit through OneNote, with the understanding that attending school is probably finished from Paddy's Day until May.

Finally some f**king sense. Hats off to those teachers.

And the lad himself: I'm trying to imagine a single day in my school career where I would have turned down an offer from my Dad to not go in in te morning, just so I can finish setting out a month of homework...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: von Boom 11 March, 2020, 11:53:47 PM
It's very scary out there at the moment so everyone be safe. However, it seems there is some hopeful news coming out of Italy. An anti-inflammatory drug used in rheumatoid arthritis is working to help a patient with a.Covid-19 breath again.

https://twitter.com/laoneill111/status/1237796973383749633 (https://twitter.com/laoneill111/status/1237796973383749633)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 12 March, 2020, 08:17:01 AM
Stories leaking out on Facebook / Whatsapp that a Department For Communities Office in Belfast has been shut down, with staff not allowed to leave building, an entire floor shut off whilst they await the arrival of higher management to make an announcement.

Bizarrely, the fella who made the post on a Facebook group, has now taken the post down. I used to work with him, and am finding this all rather bizarre, frightening and wondering when some proper leadership and assurances will be provided by my management, my elected representatives and actual people who know what they are talking about!

The whole island needs a cross-border disease policy. There was a reason Foot and Mouth never took hold in Ireland but catastrophic in Britain.

Totally agree.

They need to take the politics out of this, and agree a joint strategy. Common sense in short supply, though.

The news out of Italy is horrendous. To think the UK Government seem paralysed, and not willing to make the decisions needed just shows what an absolutely horrendous mess we have all made of things. Then you see Trump's Address.. Christ. We are just lurching from shit show to shit show.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 12 March, 2020, 08:36:46 AM
I'd like to say I can't believe what Trump is saying, but of course I can. Playing childish 'See? See? Those no-good wops and dagos!' dishonest, divisive Brexit politics with a pandemic: I try to never wish harm on people, but I hope he gets a damned good dose of 'no worse than the flu, you can just work through it'. 

Half of the construction site I'm currently working were off at Cheltenham this week, and the most of them are off to a three-day open-bar wedding in Killarney today. Come next week this place is going to be ground zero. 

Yesterday some tosspot lifted all the toilet roll from both the jacks and the supply cupboard.

I'm now keeping the (newly bought, hard won) supply, along with the hand sanitiser refills, in my boot, and bringing it in one roll at a time as needed: although maybe I should go the Immortan Joe route and stand on the roof of my Ford Ka shouting "I am your redeemer!  It is by my hand that you will wipe poop from the bottom of the world!".  If it falls to one to establish the new world order, best to place oneself on the milking stool.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 12 March, 2020, 08:45:55 AM
The other disturbing aspect of this is that this is an infectious disease that is going to affect a lot of folks but they will recover from it.  Before shouting me down on this, I'm not trying to be blasé about the affect on high risk groups.  What I am suggesting is that this could potentially be a dress rehearsal for escalation in the effects of climate change.

It is not unreasonable to expect that future events could see the size and structure of 'vulnerable groups' increase substantially.  In fact you could argue that this is already the case but the disjointed and disconnected nature of events is obscuring comprehension of the full scale.  It's a bit like Niemoller's poem but on a global scale.

Then again, perhaps this will be the wake up call that is needed?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 12 March, 2020, 09:19:43 AM
That's my hope too, Tjm - the only potential good I can see in all this. Our tax/services/economy model has been shown to be completely indequate, the global.equivalent of living on your credit card and hoping for the best. Imagine if instead of pouring  trillions into imperialist military projects in the middle east and billions into nationalist fiascos closer to home, we'd actually put something into global preparedness and resilient care for the most vulnerable.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 12 March, 2020, 09:26:47 AM
UK response is baffling. *Planning* to *possibly* legislate on social interaction policy *next week*. It’s not like there’s any urgency!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 12 March, 2020, 10:12:44 AM
Another nothing update from Management this morning.

Contingency plan in place to keep Office open, regardless of members of staff going off sick and hopes that "It isn't as bad as we are expecting..."


 

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 12 March, 2020, 10:24:49 AM
My employers emailed me a couple of posters to print and put up in the site office, added a bit about hand washing and self-isolating to the Safety Statement and suggested I buy some hand sanitiser (and keep the receipt).

Clearly we are prepared.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 12 March, 2020, 10:31:52 AM

And the lad himself: I'm trying to imagine a single day in my school career where I would have turned down an offer from my Dad to not go in in te morning, just so I can finish setting out a month of homework...

Honestly, young people these days, eh?  ::)

Potentially, some good news on the horizon, as suggested by Professor Luke O'Neill in the clip from yesterday's The Pat Kenny Show on Newstalk. And apparently, there's an Anti-Inflammatory drug - normally used to treat Rheumatoid Arthritis - that is proving to be effective in tackling the lung symptoms. Perhaps a small chink of light shining into these dark times? Worth a listen to, anyway.

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-the-pat-kenny-show/race-find-coronavirus-vaccine



: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 12 March, 2020, 10:58:30 AM
The missus, who works in the support office of a very well-known high street company, has been told that effective as of tomorrow she, and literally everyone else they could get a laptop for, will be working from home for at least two weeks.

Meanwhile, we are now at the point of begging her mother to take this seriously. The mother-in-law's in at-risk group and her partner is older, has diabetes, high blood pressure and a heart condition — there is a very real chance that COVID-19 will kill him and no amount of blitz spirit and upper-lip-stiffening will change that simple fact.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 12 March, 2020, 11:01:48 AM
The UK government has made its policy clear: it wants people to become infected and thus create "herd immunity", and given that they got away with killing 150 thousand (and counting) through austerity measures, I don't see them being held to account for this by our venal media class (https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1238030855584526336), either.

Lots of people will recover from this and they'll be young, workers, scared into a reactionary worldview, and meanwhile the victims will  be freeing up welfare money, homes, and even jobs - you have to ask what the downside is for a political class that has already doubled its wealth through a quiet genocide of the most vulnerable.  It's not that these bastards are incompetent, it's that they've been given the numbers by people who know what they're talking about and decided it's worth rolling the dice on letting us die.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 12 March, 2020, 11:07:07 AM
so I live in Tewkesbury ... ~I need to go out today to a meeting and have to take a bus or a 50 minute walk since the bus I need to take passes through Cheltenham,

Buses running then are they?  Considering the weather I'd have thought a boat would have been better?  We moved out about 30 years ago (bugger, that long ago! Paper round from Smiths .... Making fishing tackle at Ryobi Masterline ... ) and flooding was bad enough then.  Now some lunatic has built a supermarket and massive housing estate on the fields that were flooded every year and people are surprised to find their homes regularly flooding?  That's got to do wonders for the health of local residents!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 12 March, 2020, 11:22:21 AM
Meanwhile, we are now at the point of begging her mother to take this seriously. The mother-in-law's in at-risk group and her partner is older, has diabetes, high blood pressure and a heart condition — there is a very real chance that COVID-19 will kill him and no amount of blitz spirit and upper-lip-stiffening will change that simple fact.

We've tried everything with my 92-year old aunt, to no avail. The threat of no funerals scared her briefly, but then some Dept of Health prat came on radio and said that was an overreaction and out she toddled to M&S.

So we had a long talk about it last night and we've decided we've done all we can to keep her safe have to let her go her own way - after complications from a fall and a dose of flu she ignored the doctors and discharged herself from hospital on Christmas Day, forcing us to drive an hour each way and deliver her back to her shitty home, she rejected the home care package it took us weeks of work to arrange, she refused her landlord's offer of hand railings, an accessible shower and modernised kitchen (it's rotting yellowed chipboard straight out of the 1950s, it's horrific)
and a staircase lift etc etc  - and now she won't take any C-19  precautions.

So after years of trying to persuade her to move closer to/in with us, and running ourselves ragged running up and down to her, we've now given up: so that's probably that for her, and we can concentrate on keeping our parents alive. Family triage, it's fucking heartbreaking.

I hope your MiL sees sense, Jim.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 12 March, 2020, 11:48:28 AM
Christ. Prayers and hopes for the best to you and yours. Nothing as hard as family.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 12 March, 2020, 02:01:28 PM
And that's that.  In Ireland, all schools, colleges and childcare facilities to close tonight at 6, until 29 March - which will inevitably be extended until at least 20 April. This alone will take out about a sixth of the workforce. Next it's the pubs, then government services, public transport, then... what?

I'm increasingly convinced that it's really not a good thing to have read so much SF: each one of these stages and announcements has been done a hundred times, and they echo in my ears.  The bit where they close the schools is usually the end of the chapter right before the President reveals they have no plan, and we should all stay at home and try to die with dignity. If the protagonist is lucky they'll get to spend a chapter wandering around outside marveling at the quiet streets and empty playgrounds, as an unusually large flock of birds banks and twists in an unfamiliar fashion overhead. 
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Pyroxian 12 March, 2020, 02:10:36 PM
Sounds like Ireland's doing the sensible thing to reduce transmissions and let the virus die out, as opposed to the UK which is basically just 'Carry On, Nothing's Wrong' (Which is still better than the US's response...)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 12 March, 2020, 02:33:13 PM
Sounds like Ireland's doing the sensible thing to reduce transmissions and let the virus die out...

That isn't going to happen, by all accounts. If we're very very lucky, we might reduce overall infections somewhat, but the plan (such as it is) is now in the 'Delay' phase: we've accepted that some huge proportion of the population are going to catch this thing, but we're trying to spread that inevitability out over as many months as possible so there is some slim hope of providing health services to the worst affected, and some form of society keeps ticking on. The alternative is that literal hell comes to visit all at once sometime later this month and 1000s die without care in horrible circumstances over a matter of weeks.

And I'm not making this shit up.  That's what the numbers, all the numbers, say.  And they've been saying the same thing for over a month now. I haven't slept much lately, as may be evident.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 12 March, 2020, 02:49:43 PM
People in Italy are referring to “wartime triage”. In other words, save whoever you can – and whoever is most likely.

Mrs IP’s now considering whether to jack in her part-time job and take mini-G out of school, and screw the consequences. (She has a school trip tomorrow, which is apparently still going ahead.)

Meanwhile, my parents (late 60s) are in Spain. They have a place there, and it’s quite isolated. They could wait this out. It’s the low-risk option. But my mum can’t/won’t drive out there, and they don’t speak enough Spanish and so would need a translator if hospitalised. So they were asking what they should do – and what I would do. And I… don’t know. The might be able to get a flight back on Saturday, but Gatwick is of course a massive infection vector.

Meanwhile, Boris Johnson seemingly thinking the smart move is to kill 2.5 million people is fucking insane.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 12 March, 2020, 03:18:03 PM
And that's that.  In Ireland, all schools, colleges and childcare facilities to close tonight at 6, until 29 March - which will inevitably be extended until at least 20 April. This alone will take out about a sixth of the workforce. Next it's the pubs, then government services, public transport, then... what?



Well, that's me off for two weeks. And probably more.  We tried to teach our classes after the announcement but it was ridiculous trying to pretend things were normal and the students knew it.  So we cancelled everything and sent them home. 

On the plus side, my colleague who was off with a temperature and restricted breathing turned out only to have a throat infection. 
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 12 March, 2020, 03:31:21 PM
Glad to hear that your colleague's illness wasn't as bad as you feared, Jayzus. Checked to see why you didn't get my reply to your PM and realised that I failed to spot the "Do Not Reply to this email" notice. Doh! Will send you a PM soon.

In other news, I'm already hearing reports of Panic buying going on in shops and supermarkets around the country. Some of the lyrics from "Life During Wartime" by Talking Heads seem scarily appropriate at the moment.

This ain't no party, this ain't no disco
This ain't no fooling around
No time for dancing, or lovey dovey
I ain't got time for that now

Heard about Houston? heard about Detroit?
Heard about Pittsburgh, PA?
You oughta know not to stand by the window
Somebody might see you up there
I got some groceries, some peanut butter
To last a couple of days
But I ain't got no speakers, ain't got no headphones
Ain't got no records to play
Why stay in college? why go to night school?
Gonna be different this time?
Can't write a letter, can't send a postcard
I can't write nothing at all
This ain't no party, this ain't no disco
This ain't no fooling around
I'd love to hold you, I'd like to kiss you
I ain't got no time for that now



: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 12 March, 2020, 04:26:19 PM
(She has a school trip tomorrow, which is apparently still going ahead.)
....

Meanwhile, Boris Johnson seemingly thinking the smart move is to kill 2.5 million people is fucking insane.

Been chasing up with an upcoming trip our girls have at the end of the month to Disneyland Paris.  At the moment the trip organiser is trying to figure out which is the worst of the two evils: losing the money or putting the kids at risk.  My argument is that:
a) it is not exactly the kids that would be at risk, rather elderly and at-risk relatives;
b) if they do end up with self-isolation of someone while they are on the trip / Europe pulls a Trump and closes borders then that is likely to be a nightmare.
We'll take the hit on the money.  Sorry, consequences for others is just too much to think about.

As for Johnson, a couple of things occurs to me:
- he and other minister's have spent a lot of time talking about 'following the science'.  I hope those scientists realise what that could mean for them.
- he hasn't said what 'science' he is following.  Given Cummings' propensity for behavioural science and oddball thinking ...

Not good!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 12 March, 2020, 04:37:30 PM
The blustering and bumbling act won't cut it now.

I would hope that those "fortunate" enough to get near him to ask questions don't lob snowballs, but hammer him with a sledgehammer.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 12 March, 2020, 04:48:22 PM
Borders are a big issue. My parents were due back from Spain in a couple of weeks. They’ve decided to fly home this weekend instead, in part because they don’t want to be stuck there. And they have an apartment. It’d be far worse in a tiny hotel room, potentially not being able to come home for days or even weeks.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 12 March, 2020, 05:35:25 PM
Ooh wah, slarty var!

(https://www.fatowltees.com/cache/resized/h615/files/images/motive/logos/001/001686_39675.jpg)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 12 March, 2020, 06:28:51 PM
You know, I've been thinking about Tordel's comment about reading too much SF.  This is the bit that completely baffles me, fiction writers have gamed out pretty much every scenario going for an apocalyptic epidemic.  The common transmission factor is always international travel.  I'd bet that most governments around the world have war-gamed bio-warfare at one time or another, probably including such moves.

That being the case then, WHY THE HELL DID THEY KEEP LETTING PEOPLE TRAVEL?  Seriously.  The human race does not deserve to keep going!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 12 March, 2020, 06:50:36 PM
Borders are a big issue. My parents were due back from Spain in a couple of weeks. They’ve decided to fly home this weekend instead, in part because they don’t want to be stuck there. And they have an apartment. It’d be far worse in a tiny hotel room, potentially not being able to come home for days or even weeks.

I feel for them, IP. I have an international crew working with me, my wife has a US intern - they're all trying to judge when/if it's best to run for home. Very strange atmosphere.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 12 March, 2020, 07:30:32 PM
WHY THE HELL DID THEY KEEP LETTING PEOPLE TRAVEL?

Not to be too cheeky but that quote in US politics springs to mind: "It's the economy, stupid!"

(I don't think you're stupid, by the way. I think there's a strong dichotomy between stopping the virus and keeping the economy chundering along. Supply chains - the survivors will need those.)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 12 March, 2020, 07:37:42 PM
I feel for them, IP. I have an international crew working with me, my wife has a US intern - they're all trying to judge when/if it's best to run for home. Very strange atmosphere.
Where they are just got notified that the entire region is basically shutting down all municipal buildings, banning markets, and attempting to limit groups to under 30. This wouldn’t have massively affected them, but my dad doesn’t want to be “stuck” out there without medication (he has enough for three more weeks), and the next step will clearly be airports. I hope that won’t be the case before Saturday.

Good luck for your crew and wife’s intern. Right now, I don’t think there are any right answers – just various levels of risk.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 12 March, 2020, 07:43:56 PM
The story of Gussison, Colorado (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/01/gunnison-colorado-the-town-that-dodged-the-1918-spanish-flu-pandemic), and how it delayed the spanish flu epidemic of 1918.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 12 March, 2020, 08:17:02 PM
Glad to hear that your colleague's illness wasn't as bad as you feared, Jayzus. Checked to see why you didn't get my reply to your PM and realised that I failed to spot the "Do Not Reply to this email" notice. Doh! Will send you a PM soon.


Cheers Paddy! Also, yeah, it's a big relief that my colleague isn't infected. I'm not too scared of getting the virus myself, but really don't fancy the idea of being a walking hazard to vulnerable people.

I'm lucky to have a second job that doesnt generally involve contact with the public.  I'll be using this time to catch up on the painting projects that I'd assured clients  would be done within a few weeks, some time in late December.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Cyberleader2000 13 March, 2020, 10:00:53 AM
so I live in Tewkesbury ... ~I need to go out today to a meeting and have to take a bus or a 50 minute walk since the bus I need to take passes through Cheltenham,

Buses running then are they?  Considering the weather I'd have thought a boat would have been better?  We moved out about 30 years ago (bugger, that long ago! Paper round from Smiths .... Making fishing tackle at Ryobi Masterline ... ) and flooding was bad enough then.  Now some lunatic has built a supermarket and massive housing estate on the fields that were flooded every year and people are surprised to find their homes regularly flooding?  That's got to do wonders for the health of local residents!

funny you say that tewkesbury was flooded for 2 weeks about 3 weeks ago.
in worring news the wife of a friends work college is getting tested today i hang out with this friend most day in the week since he moved in a few roads over from me and he works in a bakearey one that is well know to the staff and friends of staff at haveing apaling health standereds and work pratices.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 13 March, 2020, 10:28:13 AM
A bit of light relief amidst this madness - Twitter is on fire today. We didn’t start it though.

(https://i.imgur.com/yFO72r4.jpg)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 13 March, 2020, 10:44:20 AM
So, let’s see if I have this right:

- No money for healthcare

- $1.5 trillion to keep the rich rich


Is that how it appears to you too?


https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/fed-repo-trillions-added-to-fight-coronavirus-economic-risk-recession-2020-3-1028991278
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 13 March, 2020, 11:13:06 AM
A bit of light relief amidst this madness - Twitter is on fire today. We didn’t start it though.

At a time like this, the link below certainly brought a much needed smile to my face.

https://www.facebook.com/LivingDublinAltogether/photos/a.410783018934550/3179253705420787/?type=3&theater

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 13 March, 2020, 01:48:54 PM
Nice! :D
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 13 March, 2020, 01:53:32 PM
Of course, we can now all stalk you on Twitter, shaolin_monkey.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 13 March, 2020, 02:01:57 PM
Is that how it appears to you too?

There's no other possible reading. It's an act - a policy - as calculatedly vile as many we condemn throughout history: more, it's exactly how great empires cement their decline. I suspect the last fading, tattered wisps of the American dream just died.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 13 March, 2020, 02:49:18 PM
So in addition to Bolsanaro's aide, the man himself seems to have tested positive ...

... after spending an evening sat next to President Trump.

How to respond ....  :-\
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 13 March, 2020, 02:53:58 PM
One of my crew is Catalan, with a partner living near Madrid, and as our current job is wrapping up in a few weeks (and now there's no prospect of any more starting here), he's been nervously eyeing the flight- and virus situation trying to time his exit. He seemed upset this morning (more than the rest of us, fuck this atmosphere is bizarre), so I took him aside for a chat - his partner is desperate for him to come home, but from her testimony on the ground half of all Spanish cases are in Madrid, and he's terrified that flights or onward travel will be cancelled when he's on route and he'll be stranded. He believes Spain is about a week away from being Italy today.

Almost incredibly he's decided to abandon his plans to go home, and instead get the ferry to Britain, where he believes Boris' laissez faire approach will mean less restrictions on work and travel, and he'll ride it all out working on a HS2 site deep in the countryside somewhere.

If I was half-joking about the world sounding like an unoriginal SF novel, I'm not any longer - this is almost exactly the story setup for a PoV character in an apocalypse.  The poor bastard.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 13 March, 2020, 03:03:55 PM
Spain is not looking good. Areas with low infection have traced basically everything to Madrid and Italy. My folks are in the south-east, and they’ve even roped off all of the children’s playgrounds. All municipal buildings are being closed.

Meanwhile, Iceland is containing things in some interesting ways, such as keeping shops open but mandating a maximum of 100 people even in large supermarkets and stores (which are relatively few in number in that country, but some do exist).
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 13 March, 2020, 03:13:01 PM
It's certainly lucky there aren't loads of British people over the age of 60 in Spain then, isn't it...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 13 March, 2020, 03:56:34 PM
So in addition to Bolsanaro's aide, the man himself seems to have tested positive ...

... after spending an evening sat next to President Trump.

How to respond ....  :-\

Wow.  I'm not sure how to feel about that.  A wee bit of schadenfreude I have to admit, as Mr 'Just Another Democrat Hoax' wakes up to reality.  Not saying this is a moral standpoint; it's the petty little snide in me doing the thinking.

Another of my co-workers is getting tested today. The whole thing is overwhelming.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 13 March, 2020, 03:58:31 PM
It's certainly lucky there aren't loads of British people over the age of 60 in Spain then, isn't it...
Two of which are my parents. As of tomorrow, they might not be – depending on how far the state of emergency being declared goes. (They have flights booked. The question is whether the flights will still happen.)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: I, Cosh 13 March, 2020, 04:10:44 PM
All schools in Switzerland closed until April now. Further restrictions on events: maximum 100 people at anything and 50 in a bar or restaurant.

Number of cases per capita has been very high here, mostly from proximity to northern Italy.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 13 March, 2020, 04:22:51 PM
A wee bit of schadenfreude I have to admit, as Mr 'Just Another Democrat Hoax' wakes up to reality.


... and off the back of that revelation the White House goes into full panic mode ...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 13 March, 2020, 06:02:36 PM
Seems like the Bolsonaro infection thing was probably wrong.  Bit of a 9/11-style day today; conflicting news reports from all angles.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 13 March, 2020, 07:24:04 PM
So in addition to Bolsanaro's aide, the man himself seems to have tested positive ...

... after spending an evening sat next to President Trump.

How to respond ....  :-\

At some point in the next couple of months, many of us will be openly praying that he, Johnson and the lot of them catch it and die, so compassion is the best way to respond for now, while we're still capable.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Dudley 13 March, 2020, 07:51:23 PM
This being the one place I sometimes post where my family isn't likely to see, please allow me to vent. My wife and I are in lockdown because the schools where we live are closed down, and we're lucky enough to have the option of teleworking. Meanwhile, my fucking mother, who has metastatic kidney cancer in both lungs, is refusing to take any precautions at all - this weekend she's been to a bunch of parties and all over the country, basically walking around in every damn crowd she can find. Worse, she's dragging my dad along with her (triple cancer survivor and not in the best of health himself). All the while making blithe little jokes about "if it comes, it comes," seemingly not giving a shit about her life or anyone's feelings but her own. We've tried gently and then less gently getting her to take the whole social distancing thing more seriously, but it just doesn't get through. And there's a limit to how much I can physically interfere given that I am stuck a good 2000 miles away, just going out of my mind.

Thanks for listening /reading /scrolling past, etc. Just really wanted to get that off my chest somewhere.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 13 March, 2020, 08:26:08 PM
Similar issues with the olds in my neck of the woods. They seem fairly blase about ... end of life stuff.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 13 March, 2020, 08:31:07 PM
So in addition to Bolsanaro's aide, the man himself seems to have tested positive ...

... after spending an evening sat next to President Trump.

How to respond ....  :-\

At some point in the next couple of months, many of us will be openly praying that he, Johnson and the lot of them catch it and die, so compassion is the best way to respond for now, while we're still capable.

A kind sentiment, Professor, even if only a temporary one. I think it is worth bearing in mind, though, that the likes of Johnson and his ilk, generally tend to view compassion as a weakness to be exploited, abused and manipulated. So with that in mind, I would have to say "Sod them!" Give your enemy an inch and they'll dig up the whole bloody garden and laugh at you while they're doing so. Offer no quarter, mercy or forgiveness, 'cause you can be damn sure that you won't get any from them.

I'll save my compassion for those that are truly deserving of it.

And speaking of which, my thoughts are with you, Dudley. I can't offer any possible solutions to your dilemma. For what little it is worth, I can only give you my best wishes and hope that things work out for yourself and your family, at this difficult and traumatic time.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 13 March, 2020, 09:24:53 PM
...  All the while making blithe little jokes about "if it comes, it comes," seemingly not giving a shit about her life or anyone's feelings but her own. We've tried gently and then less gently getting her to take the whole social distancing thing more seriously, but it just doesn't get through.

Maybe it isn't jokes so much as resignation?  I don't know.  News today has got me considering options and this is about to transition to Black Dog Thread (sorry not talking about Covid-19, rather personal news).  I get the nihilism, the resignation.  It's a massive challenge trying to think about how it affects other people when you are sat there thinking 'fuck it, there is only so much you can take.'

We've got a PM sat there saying 'do you know what, we're going to lose loved ones'.  That's another way of saying 'fuck it, a couple of thousand deaths don't count'.  So I get the idea of thinking about having a good innings but not wanting to be a further burden.  I even get the idea that it might be painful for loved ones in the short term but you know what, that pain fades.  Maybe there is a silver lining here in that it gives some of us a helpful get out.  Half a million deaths?  What is one more?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 13 March, 2020, 09:42:54 PM
Ah - my school has just closed down till April 24th - this is in the US. People keep asking what it all means (for graduation, for learning, for jobs, for life) and all I have is "It's unprecedented".
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 13 March, 2020, 10:56:36 PM
This being the one place I sometimes post where my family isn't likely to see, please allow me to vent. My wife and I are in lockdown because the schools where we live are closed down, and we're lucky enough to have the option of teleworking. Meanwhile, my fucking mother, who has metastatic kidney cancer in both lungs, is refusing to take any precautions at all - this weekend she's been to a bunch of parties and all over the country, basically walking around in every damn crowd she can find. Worse, she's dragging my dad along with her (triple cancer survivor and not in the best of health himself). All the while making blithe little jokes about "if it comes, it comes," seemingly not giving a shit about her life or anyone's feelings but her own. We've tried gently and then less gently getting her to take the whole social distancing thing more seriously, but it just doesn't get through. And there's a limit to how much I can physically interfere given that I am stuck a good 2000 miles away, just going out of my mind.

Thanks for listening /reading /scrolling past, etc. Just really wanted to get that off my chest somewhere.

Aw, man, that's brutal. Mothers have a way of driving you mental sometimes but that's just a whole lot worse. Hope your folks can get through it despite your Mam's belligerent attitude.

Meanwhile, my brother in England is still having to work with huge groups of schoolkids, because fuck Johnson and his sociopathic eugenics approach to human life.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: DaveGYNWA 13 March, 2020, 11:31:58 PM
Sobering moment this evening when I got home from work - my kids (11 and 9) asked if there was anything they could do to help with what is going on.

A little chat later, and they have got text together for a leaflet for them to put through the letterboxes of the estate we are on, offering help to anyone who needs it. Popped it up on the Facebook group for the estate, got a long list of names & numbers to add to the list and volunteers to help distribute the leaflets.

Kids are great.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Gary James 13 March, 2020, 11:43:50 PM
For those with friends or relatives who are not taking precautions, perhaps a better way of looking at their actions is that of a coping mechanism - by changing their routine, and accepting that there are significant risk factors involved with crowds and so on, their fear of catching Covid-19 (or, really, any bug doing the rounds) might increase. By maintaining a pattern of behavior which conforms to prior expectations they are simply dealing with events as best they can.

Many older people, having lived through other events of significant disruption, can have a "keep buggering on" attitude - in other circumstances this would be laudable. Don't view their stubborn refusal to follow guidelines as some sort of a death wish, as I'm certain that this isn't going to be the case for most people.

For years I have been mocked for compulively washing my hands, but the reason for OCD now becomes clear - this is how the I'm going to get through the next few months (hopefully) unscathed. I can't afford to catch anything, least of all Captain Trips.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 14 March, 2020, 12:04:41 AM
Christ, Dudley that's a shite situation. As detailed upthread, I had to genuinely terrorise my parents to get them to behave (there were spreadsheets) - luckily I did it early enough that as events have unfolded I've now achieved a certain prophetic noteriety, and they seem to be toeing the line. Although my Dad may never forgive me for physically barring him from going to the pub with a terminally-ill mate. I doubt it will save them, but at least we will know we tried.

My aunt, OTOH, went down to the PO for her pension today despite my filling out the forms for her to get it put in her bank 3 months ago, then to the hairdressers, and marvelled at how quiet it was, then into Tesco for some fresh buns. There she met a very kind neighbour who has been delivering food to her this past fortnight, who was horrified to find this frail 92 year old woman in the bakery section. Apparently said neighbour was 'very rude, I don't know what got into her'.

And so it goes.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 14 March, 2020, 01:38:52 AM
Sorry for the double post, but if you haven't read  this article  (https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca)you must, and then share it.

This is the one that, like the Terminator, lays it all down: hidden cases, judgement day, the history of things to come. Be like Miles Dyson: take it pretty well, but listen.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Eamonn Clarke 14 March, 2020, 10:07:51 AM
A doctor writes:
It seems inevitable now that most of us are going to be exposed to this virus over the coming year, tens (or hundreds) of thousands of us are going to contract the Covid-19 illness, and thousands are going to die.

We are going to run out of something but it’s won’t be toilet rolls. It’s going to be hospital beds in general, and intensive care beds in particular. People who should be in an ITU bed are going to be cared for on standard wards, people who should be on the ward are going to be nursed in corridors, and people who should be in hospital are going to be kept at home.

It seems the only chance the elderly or people with chronic health conditions have is to delay their exposure to the virus until later in the year when there may be a bed for them, or to try and avoid it altogether.

So we should all:
Avoid crowded places or events.
Do not travel by plane if you can avoid it.
If you can arrange to work from home then do so.
Unless you are unwell please stay away from the NHS.
If you are due a routine medical review or have some non urgent problem you want to see your GP about please don’t come to the surgery. Ring us and hopefully we can do it by phone or video.
If you get a cough, sore throat or fever then go straight home. Current advice is 7 days. I would say 14.
If this happens and you have a pre-existing health condition (asthma, diabetes, heart disease, COPD, cancer, or any form of immunodeficiency) then get medical advice from 111 or your surgery by phone.
If you get breathing difficulties then get immediate medical advice by phone.
Do not visit elderly relatives or friends unless it is to drop off supplies.
Talk to them regularly by phone or video instead.
Tell them to do the same.
I know it is proving difficult for many people to convince older relatives but try to impress on them the seriousness of this. Tell them it’s doctor’s orders.

Additional thoughts.
We’re comic fans so spare a thought for the industry that relies on us to keep going.
If you have an order at your local comic shop then try and pay them by phone or online even if there’s going to be a delay in picking them up. Maybe they will be offering a postal service.
If you are out and about then pick up the prog and other comic magazines
Conventions are going to be cancelled so perhaps contact your artist of choice to pay them for a sketch or commission.
Support the small press comics people if you can.
And if you’re still reading this far then please think about some of the worst off people in society who are going to be hit hard.
Donate some of the money you won’t be spending on social events to homelessness charities, food banks, or organisations that support refugees (Just a thought).

Above all please be kind.
And now wash your hands.
Thank you for your attention.
Eamonn Clarke
A NHS GP
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 14 March, 2020, 10:19:14 AM
Thank you, Eamonn. That's great. 
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 14 March, 2020, 10:42:59 AM
Excuse the double post, but something has just occurred to me, which will be blindingly obvious already to most of you: if Johnson believes in 'herd immunity', why hasn't he already made efforts to 'immunise' himself and his own family (at least, the ones he can find)?  It's can't be that hard to find a sick person and get yourself infected.

Or maybe the 'herd' doesn't include Tory public school types.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 14 March, 2020, 12:44:06 PM
Brilliant Eamonn, thanks for this. You are as always the very best of us.

The appeal to accelerating herd immunity is a counsel of despair. That was obvious as soon as Katie Hopkins started tweeting about how chickenpox parties never did her any harm. I'm having none of it.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Steve Green 14 March, 2020, 12:59:36 PM
Avoid crowded places or events.

Scottish contingent meet-ups were well ahead of the curve there.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 14 March, 2020, 01:07:41 PM
Avoid crowded places or events.

Scottish contingent meet-ups were well ahead of the curve there.

Pioneers of social distancing.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 14 March, 2020, 01:09:56 PM
For both truth and a dark chuckle at the situation, here’s Honest Government Ads:

https://youtu.be/Hks6Nq7g6P4
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 14 March, 2020, 02:25:03 PM
I would like to hereby start a campaign to get Johnson and his herd immunity advisers infected, then send them to an isolated house till they're good and immune.

I'll let Boris decide himself whether he wants to take his elderly mother along to get naturally immunised too.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Dandontdare 14 March, 2020, 04:51:14 PM
I’m in Lanzarote- due to fly home tomorrow but first 2 confirmed cases yesterday’s at our resort. Jet2 flights have been turning back to UK mid flight but Ryanair don’t seem to give a $%*#

I would happily be trapped here or have some self isolation back home, even if if unpaid. I just don’t want to go to work on Monday  :(
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 14 March, 2020, 05:30:38 PM
Folks just landed; back from Spain. Originally scheduled to come back in two weeks, but weren’t keen on being stuck. They’ve – fortunately – been in one of the least-affected areas, but it’s now in full lockdown. (The Spanish aren’t fucking around – looking at closing roads/banning intercity travel/etc.)

I’m not thrilled at them having gone through two airports and flown, but it seemed the lesser of two evils. Here’s hoping the right decision was made…
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 14 March, 2020, 05:57:18 PM
Nerve-wracking to say the least IP but at least they are close by now. Fingers crossed for ye.

As for you DDD, there are surely worse fates than being marooned in the Canaries!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Dandontdare 14 March, 2020, 07:41:34 PM
Fingers crossed!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Leigh S 14 March, 2020, 07:52:40 PM
Wife is back from the shops which are half empty now - God knows what panic would set in if they shut the schools - A google search of "Why are the English so" comes up with "angry" and "entitled"  - sounds about right.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 14 March, 2020, 09:12:25 PM
Sorry for the double post, but if you haven't read  this article  (https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca)you must, and then share it.

This is the one that, like the Terminator, lays it all down: hidden cases, judgement day, the history of things to come. Be like Miles Dyson: take it pretty well, but listen.

Thanks for sharing that article. It moved me to start a couple of campaigns of social distancing with the older chunk of my family. And, my (US) school is canceling classes from Tuesday, so I'm emailing all my students and suggesting strongly that they needn't attend on Monday either. Like the article says: one day can make a big difference.

Fuck: I've cried three times in the last 24 hours. I usually only cry at The Waltons.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 14 March, 2020, 10:06:59 PM
Really hope your folks are OK,  IP.

I'm in my local, really loving the normalcy of it all. They may all be closing soon so I'll enjoy it while I can.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 15 March, 2020, 08:27:47 AM
Fuck: I've cried three times in the last 24 hours. I usually only cry at The Waltons.

I'm finding it unbearable, to be honest. I've been digging into the actual progression and likely long-term conseqiences of the illness itself and it's way, way worse than I understood. This is one of those moments of complete transformation for our world.

Pubs jammed to the rafters, parents letting their kids roam around in packs, sick people forced to come into work... we aren't capable of being responsible or flexible, the patterns of our lives seem like railway tracks to us, when we need to strike off crosscountry.

I'm minutes away from putting my head in the sand.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: judgeurko 15 March, 2020, 08:59:51 AM
Not sure what to do. I have relatives in their 60s about 200 miles away was planning to visit?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Dandontdare 15 March, 2020, 09:05:23 AM
Ah bollox- just heard that Lanzarote will be locked down from midnight- 12 hours after our flight home.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 15 March, 2020, 04:41:31 PM
Just got off the phone to my dad. I was pleasantly surprised to hear that he and my mam are taking this seriously: staying at home, washing hands, limiting social contact etc.
He was due to come up and see me tomorrow, but I put him off. A colleague of mine is due to get tested ASAP so I'm waiting to see if I have symptoms or not before coming into contact with him.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 15 March, 2020, 06:27:53 PM
Fashion proving how tasteless it is once again. (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-51899526)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IAMTHESYSTEM 16 March, 2020, 09:47:43 AM
Is the bulk-buying a form of survival strategy? By limiting your exposure to a possibly toxic environment, you eliminate some of the risks involved, and shopping is where humans gather together to buy items. By scaling down your purchasing activity, or buying more at one visit, you help reduce any threat of infection to yourself, ensuring you continue to work and support your offspring or dependents. Our local big Tesco Superstore was heaving this morning; long queues, lots of piled up trolleys, and some bare rather than empty food aisles. It looks like this is going to be the way of things for the next couple of months, at least, so keep washing those hands, folks.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 16 March, 2020, 10:59:17 AM
Everything’s gone fucking nuts. My recommendation to my parents was to shop online. Good luck with that. Even click and collect is no longer viable for three of the major supermarket chains – and I imagine we’ll see a full house within 48h. Amazon, notably, now also out of key staples (and arseholes on marketplace are now aiming to fill that particular void).
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Trooper McFad 16 March, 2020, 11:12:23 AM
These Doomsday preppers in the US (and other areas) will be grabbing their bug out bags and running to the hills singing “ I told you so, I told you so” while the rest of us will just have to sit tight and hope for the best🤞🏻
Better start watching Bear Grylls on how to catch & skin rabbits & squirrels 😳
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Aaron A Aardvark 16 March, 2020, 11:16:43 AM
So I can wipe my arse on a squirrel when the toilet paper runs out?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Trooper McFad 16 March, 2020, 12:03:57 PM
So I can wipe my arse on a squirrel when the toilet paper runs out?

Softer than Andrex but might tickle a bit 😂😂😂
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JamesC 16 March, 2020, 12:27:27 PM
So I can wipe my arse on a squirrel when the toilet paper runs out?

Softer than Andrex but might tickle a bit 😂😂😂

and it'll probably go for your nuts.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 16 March, 2020, 01:11:26 PM
One of the Four Horsemen is now doing deliveries of said essential item.  ;)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1564916640333689&set=a.1564920673666619&type=3
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: gurnard 16 March, 2020, 04:22:12 PM
I live in Belgium, British immigrant. My folks are in the UK and most of my friends.  I am sadly not suprised how little the UK gov seems to be doing. Here the schools closed today. All shops apart from food and pharmacy are closed at the weekends. All concerts have been postponed, bars and restaurants are closed but you can go get a takeaway.
Anyone who can work from home are advised to the office is open but the boss sent an email saying work from home. Shops are open in the week but I think they are changing that now to be just essentials.  If you have symptoms you call the doctor and they come to your home. There are daily updates from the state. There are also concessions for mortgage payments and the tax returns can go in a month or so later this year.

All of this makes me feel happy that the gov is taking actions to limit the spread and reduce the death toll. I wish the UK would do something similar. It is not a complete lock down but sensible precautions.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 16 March, 2020, 05:31:47 PM
One of the Four Horsemen is now doing deliveries of said essential item.  ;)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1564916640333689&set=a.1564920673666619&type=3

Thank you.  That is outstanding!!!!!!  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: auxlen 16 March, 2020, 05:34:56 PM
My Job has stopped me from going out to customers. A colleague's son has it and it is awful (and he is only 22 and can't breathe). my parents are in their 70s and my mum keeps going to the shops for bits and bobs!!!!! she will never change.

and I keep getting people saying it's just a cold (like the Italians did).
I work in the construction supply industry and possibly saw it all a bit early from rushes and backorders on hand sanitizer and masks and tp. scary stuff.

we will never know if we overreacted or acted too soon.
but we will know for sure if we acted too little too late.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: auxlen 16 March, 2020, 05:36:19 PM
Also, a shout goes out to all the people who cannot work from home. My mum was a cleaner and she couldn't clean from home so... :'(
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 16 March, 2020, 06:10:12 PM
If anyone wants to scare the living shite out of their elderly  parents in terms they may understand, try this: a comparison of the Death Notices in the Bergamo Echo newspaper from one month ago, and this week. Good luck not losing your composure by the end.

https://t.co/gTREDkDGPL
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 16 March, 2020, 08:04:07 PM
My dad’s going to Lidl tomorrow, because of course he is. On the plus side, he’s aiming to get enough that my parents won’t have to leave their house again for a couple of months, potentially. I would have recommended getting a delivery, but good luck with that. Even getting on to the Ocado website now takes over 15 minutes, and there won’t be any slots until you do. Sainsbury’s and Tesco locally also have no slots. Morrisons doesn’t have any for eight days (and god knows what you’ll actually get). Asda still had some yesterday, but I imagine they’re probably gone by now as well. Even Amazon is struggling with stock.

Still, everyone don’t leave your homes!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 16 March, 2020, 08:05:30 PM
As I long suspected, it's maths teachers that will kill us all. Watching social media reactions to latest Irish Govt briefing, where an established growth rate of 30% per day will mean 15,000 (identified) infections in a matter of weeks, and half the takes are people refusing to believe that 'only 30%' could end up with such a high figure . Add that to 'shure it only kills 1%' and it's obvious we have a situation where a huge part of the electorate can't grasp basic maths. Which may be where very many of our problems start.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 16 March, 2020, 09:23:45 PM
I do not see how this can possibly end well:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/coronavirus-us-panic-buying-guns-ammo-nra-a9403886.htmlThis
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 16 March, 2020, 11:21:32 PM
Mark Drakeford, the Welsh AM, made a very important point tonight.

The rates of child poverty are so incredibly high in Wales, which means closing the schools would be a disaster - without their breakfast club and free school meals the kids would literally starve.

This is one of the main reasons they’re holding off closing schools in Wales - to give Welsh government time to get something in place to counter this awful situation.

I imagine this is the same for other impoverished areas in the U.K.

Another slow handclap for Tory austerity.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 17 March, 2020, 12:03:46 AM
It's almost as if capitalism is the problem, and the pandemic is merely a symptom.  That stripping utilities to the bone until they're only just holding on is a bad idea and that infinite profit is a stupid concept on a sphere with a finite number of resources even before you get to the problem of some fuckers hoarding that profit in overseas accounts so it can't stimulate the economy.

My sister and her two oldest girls have made a point of visiting my mum regularly since people started social distancing and panic buying, so mum doesn't feel lonely and isolated what with her chest infection and advancing years and being short of breath all the time to the point she can barely speak.  Did I mention all three girls work in retail?  And haven't stopped working yet?  And one of them works at a 24 hour petrol station that is visited by one car in five passing through the town?  Honestly, I've just spent all my money on toilet paper and baked beans - where do they expect me to rustle up the cash for a decent pair of black shoes?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 17 March, 2020, 06:15:22 AM
The rates of child poverty are so incredibly high in Wales, which means closing the schools would be a disaster
This is one of the main reasons they’re holding off closing schools in Wales - to give Welsh government time to get something in place to counter this awful situation.

This is something that we are acutely aware of up here in the Valleys where this is not so much an abstract political problem but a daily reality.  Families are also heavily reliant on older relatives, many in risk-groups, for childcare so that is another issue.

I know that we have been critical of the government, and Johnson in particular, in the past (okay, with good reason ...) but even so I really don't envy him the choices he is facing right now.  Brexit is the least of his problems right now!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 17 March, 2020, 08:36:35 AM
Entitled incompetent lies and fucks over his country (and mine) to gain power over everyone's lives, now he finds out what that responsibility can mean you feel sorry for him? You're a better man than I, Tjm86!  Personally I hope he vomits in terror everytime he looks in the mirror.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 17 March, 2020, 08:59:50 AM
Entitled incompetent lies and fucks over his country (and mine) to gain power over everyone's lives, now he finds out what that responsibility can mean you feel sorry for him? You're a better man than I, Tjm86!  Personally I hope he vomits in terror everytime he looks in the mirror.

Yeah - for somebody who wanted to be in power so much, why hadn't he made any decisions in his time in the job?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 17 March, 2020, 09:32:59 AM
Not entirely sure I would go so far as to say that I fell sorry for him.  He is now finding out what the bed he has made feels like to lie in.  A career of self-centred narcissism, duplicity and deceit really is catching up on him and circumstances are demonstrating how grotesquely inadequate he is for the job.  As someone once said, "karma's a bitch."
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 17 March, 2020, 09:45:33 AM
Fuck him. I have no sympathy whatsoever for someone who lied their way into a position of power, and who is now making decisions still in some cases based on ideology rather than humanity. There is no fucking excuse right now. The government should at the very least be mandating businesses close, so insurance can kick in, and introducing some kind of UBI to get gig workers and those who cannot WFH as much as possible out of harm’s way.

If nothing else, I do hope whatever we are on the other side of this recognises that society needs to change. I don’t think capitalism is the problem — it’s our implementation. By all means have competition and companies scrapping for marketshare. But ensure the underlying foundation is solid. Don’t run the health service at 90% capacity. Enact a full UBI scheme, so people have enough money to survive when things go wrong. This doesn’t require nationalising all the things and going full socialism. It means a robust mixed economy, which ends up borrowing fairly equally from Thatcher-style competition and open markets and Green Party-oriented societal changes. If we stick with only the former, it’s going to be the death of many of us.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 17 March, 2020, 11:02:03 AM
Just heard: one of mini-IP’s best chums has a family now in isolation. One of their kids has been sick for a week. Chances that her entire class now has this are certainly now a lot higher than zero. Still, great that the schools aren’t shutting in the UK. What a fantastic plan this is to stop the spread!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 17 March, 2020, 11:14:44 AM
Just heard: one of mini-IP’s best chums has a family now in isolation. One of their kids has been sick for a week. Chances that her entire class now has this are certainly now a lot higher than zero. Still, great that the schools aren’t shutting in the UK. What a fantastic plan this is to stop the spread!

As Cathy Newman rather waspishly asked a health minister on C4 News: "What's the point in stopping going to the pub if our kids are going to bring this disease home from school?"

Needless to say, the reply was a wall of content-free waffle about being "led by the science".
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IAMTHESYSTEM 17 March, 2020, 11:45:50 AM
The schools are effectively time-bombs waiting to go off. One Telegraph writer has accusations laid against him of all but applauding the Coronavirus, seeing it as an opportunity to rid the nation of costly welfare recipients. You could argue school-aged children are now Bio-Weapons, used to knock-off granny, but that's just my paranoia. Still, a lot of Hospitality jobs are on the line here, with Pubs, Clubs and Restaurants in the firing line. I doubt the Government will move to save these workers, knowing their Business Donors friends would like nothing more than to pick up bankrupted businesses for a song. The scary thing is, we're just at the start of this epidemic.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 17 March, 2020, 12:10:47 PM
Close the schools - widespread malnutrition and starvation in nearly one in three kids.

http://theconversation.com/food-poverty-agony-of-hunger-the-norm-for-many-children-in-the-uk-116216


Don't close the schools - spread the virus quickly around families.


The Tory policy of austerity has created a real "Sophie's Choice" here, eh? 

It's hard to see a way out, other than close the schools and get emergency food parcels to 4 millions kids weekly over the next few months.  And ideally forever after.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 17 March, 2020, 12:26:39 PM
used to knock-off granny,
Granny probably votes Tory. Even the government isn’t that stupid.

As for people who don’t have enough money, that’s why I’ve also been saying above we need UBI basically immediately.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 17 March, 2020, 02:02:04 PM
Our schools (WA, US) are closed but we will be supplying packed meals as pick-up items, effectively at a doorway location. Schools are currently figuring out logistics for students who live far away, like setting up satellite distribution centers and using the school buses as delivery trucks.

Closing the schools has been an emergency no-brainer. Figuring out how to continue supporting the in-need kids is being dealt with. New rules for this crazy emergency.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Lorenzo 17 March, 2020, 02:27:34 PM
... There is no fucking excuse right now. The government should at the very least be mandating businesses close, so insurance can kick in, and introducing some kind of UBI to get gig workers and those who cannot WFH as much as possible out of harm’s way....

I don't normally post that much - so, hello - but I'm intrigued by your anger. I live in Holland and my Prime Minister gave a very statesmanlike and grave address to the nation yesterday. He basically said closing everything down (like France and Spain) would be terribly destructive and, as difficult as it is to say it, the only real solution is for everyone (or at least 60%) to get the virus. Just not all at once.

If a country goes into lock down you will temporarily stop the spread, but when everyone crawls back out into the daylight after a month, the virus will reappear. A vaccine ain't gonna happen for 12 months at least. If you lock down the country for 12 months there isn't going to be a society left, so where does the UBI come from? It's all very well slagging off Bojo - he's a very easy target! - but hibernating isn't going to save us. France, Spain and Italy are going to be stuffed.

The scientific advice here seems to be let everyone that is young and fit get the virus, spread out the infection rate over the next couple of months, and protect the elderly and sick from infection in the mean time. Protecting everyone isn't going to solve the problem. It seems to be an odd virus - most people barely notice they are ill, whilst the very old are very vulnerable, but seasonal flu is a bit like that as well...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 17 March, 2020, 02:36:20 PM
Oh ffs. Seasonal flu doesn’t overwhelm the healthcare system, and COVID is something like ten times as deadly. It’s not hibernating, it’s flattening the curve. Do the bare minimum of research, please.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Lorenzo 17 March, 2020, 02:41:50 PM
Way to pick out one word from my reply. I have done my research try this:
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 17 March, 2020, 02:54:57 PM
used to knock-off granny,
Granny probably votes Tory. Even the government isn’t that stupid.

It's not just granny who's going to come a cropper - society's most vulnerable and sick aren't likely to be Tory voters and they're facing a holocaust.  A few hundred thousand Tory votes at most will be lost, but even if by some evil miracle or statistical quirk that were the single demographic that was struck down by the virus, the Tories would still have enough voters to spare thanks to the sterling job done by British centrists over the last few years.

On balance, the Tories will make out like bandits from this pandemic: fire sales of national assets, super-austerity measures, houses freed up to use as bribes to the electorate, and lots of undeserving chaff culled from the herd.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 17 March, 2020, 04:51:15 PM
Hah hah, one of my main Iads from work just texted me to say he's in quarantine - a friend he hung out with the weekend before last was on holiday with a confirmed victim, and is now sick as a dog with fever/cough and queued up for a test. Luckily he still has no symptoms himself, and I haven't seen him since Friday - and rumour has it it's the last few asymptomatic days that the most shedding takes place. Fingers are crossed for him, his own underlying health isn't the best, and he's a grand bloke.

But fuuuuuuck do I not want to be going into work tomorrow.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 17 March, 2020, 05:41:09 PM
Way to pick out one word from my reply. I have done my research try this:
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf

The conclusion of that study was that we need to practice suppression (which you labelled "hibernation", and were arguing against.) Not sure why you're arguing against your own research but there's nowt as queer as folk.

Sorry if my reaction to your comparing Covid-19 to flu didn't sit well with you: but I'm flabbergasted as to how anyone can make that sort of "bah - tis just a flu" comparison with a straight face (and without a clearly worn, and worn, tin foil hat). Like the WHO and the rest of the world are all shitting themselves for no reason. Italy's just exaggerating etc. I know you didn't say all that exactly, but it seemed like an analogy, and if it wasn't intended as such then what did you mean by the comparison?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 17 March, 2020, 06:00:57 PM
Hah hah, one of my main Iads from work just texted me to say he's in quarantine - a friend he hung out with the weekend before last was on holiday with a confirmed victim, and is now sick as a dog with fever/cough and queued up for a test. Luckily he still has no symptoms himself, and I haven't seen him since Friday - and rumour has it it's the last few asymptomatic days that the most shedding takes place.


Rumour?  You should stop listening to rumours.


Incubation period    (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(20)30074-7/fulltext)5·8 days (2·6)


Symptoms of COVID-19 appear within two to 14 days after exposure and include fever, cough, runny nose and difficulty breathing. (https://newsroom.clevelandclinic.org/2020/03/15/frequently-asked-questions-about-coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 17 March, 2020, 06:08:54 PM
The Tory policy of austerity has created a real "Sophie's Choice" here, eh? 

"Hobson's Choice" ...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 17 March, 2020, 06:33:49 PM
Rumour?  You should stop listening to rumours.

Well I say 'rumour' precisely because I don't want to be asserting as facts things I don't fully understand, but that was the best understanding from the WHO (https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200306-sitrep-46-covid-19.pdf?sfvrsn=96b04adf_2) when last I looked, which admittedly was last week - it's not like I was hearing it from a lad down the pub and reporting it on here as fact.

Feck all I can do about it anyway, just trying to give myself  a wee shred of hope! 
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Lorenzo 17 March, 2020, 10:07:50 PM
Way to pick out one word from my reply. I have done my research try this:
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf

The conclusion of that study was that we need to practice suppression (which you labelled "hibernation", and were arguing against.) Not sure why you're arguing against your own research but there's nowt as queer as folk.

Sorry if my reaction to your comparing Covid-19 to flu didn't sit well with you: but I'm flabbergasted as to how anyone can make that sort of "bah - tis just a flu" comparison with a straight face (and without a clearly worn, and worn, tin foil hat). Like the WHO and the rest of the world are all shitting themselves for no reason. Italy's just exaggerating etc. I know you didn't say all that exactly, but it seemed like an analogy, and if it wasn't intended as such then what did you mean by the comparison?

I have no idea why you are being quite so patronizing and passive-aggressive towards me. I think you need to re-read my post and understand I'm asking a question.

I didn't say 'bah - tis just a flu' read my sentence again, don't parse it and don't reinterpret it.

Suppression is elastically defined as 'social distancing of the population + home isolation of cases + (possibly) school and university closures'. I don't consider that 'hibernation' which the French and Italians are practising. This involves banning people from leaving home at all and closing all businesses. The Dutch are attempting 'social distancing' whilst allowing some business to continue where home working is not an option. This could mitigate total economic collapse with only a minimal increase in risk.

That was the reason I asked my question to IndigoPrime, but you can answer if you want.
If you are advocating a total lock-down, like the French, where businesses are closed and freedom of movement is removed totally. How long will the economy last before total collapse and how does the state then pay for UBI? What happens to society if everyone's job goes down the sh*tter? Total lock-down will only work if it can be maintained until a vaccine has been produced. Otherwise as soon as the lock-down ends the virus will still be out there waiting.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JOE SOAP 17 March, 2020, 10:56:36 PM
The scientific advice here seems to be let everyone that is young and fit get the virus, spread out the infection rate over the next couple of months, and protect the elderly and sick from infection in the mean time. Protecting everyone isn't going to solve the problem. It seems to be an odd virus - most people barely notice they are ill, whilst the very old are very vulnerable, but seasonal flu is a bit like that as well...

There is no scientific advice that says that. 'Herd Immunity' has not been proven with COVID-19 because it hasn't been around long enough and even if it does develop it might not stick. Herd Immunity is usually developed in tandem with a vaccine, which we don't have.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 17 March, 2020, 11:00:12 PM
The economy of the whole world is going down the shitter on this one, no matter what any one country does. All we can do is follow the best advice of epidemiological and crisis experts and save as many lives as we can. Ultimately that's what the economy is for, sustaining life, not creating wealth to be hoarded. It will have to change.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Mister Pops 17 March, 2020, 11:54:37 PM
That's very interesting.

I don't have a clue how this will all work out, nor would I even try to pretend to.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 17 March, 2020, 11:58:02 PM
I don't have a clue how this will all work out, nor would I even try to pretend to.

Wise words, Mr P.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 18 March, 2020, 12:16:03 AM
Lorenzo: I think there's a confusion over terms, honestly.

You're differentiating the French/Spanish/Italian response from suppression and I'm not. You have called it "hibernation", whereas I'd just describe it as sensible suppression. So, we disagree there.

---

As for your not liking my way of expressing myself toward you: you compared Covid-19 to flu in an ambiguous way that seemed (to me) to downplay the dangers of the former, and that triggered me. I got salty. I still think that's pretty fair. Happy to eat my hat (metaphorically: things haven't gotten that desperate yet) if you tell me that's not what you were doing.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 18 March, 2020, 08:27:46 AM
The Tory policy of austerity has created a real "Sophie's Choice" here, eh? 

"Hobson's Choice" ...

Sophie’s, surely?

“Sophie's choice refers to an extremely difficult decision a person has to make. It describes a situation where no outcome is preferable over the other. This can be either because both outcomes are equally desirable or both are equally undesirable.”

Keep schools open - infect everyone
or
Close schools - starve 1 in 3 kids

Both are equally undesirable.



: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 18 March, 2020, 11:59:27 AM
It's a digression, but how the fuck does one of the richest countries in the world get to the point where so many kids depend on school meals for survival? Whenis shit is over, it seems like there are some very serious questions to be addressed about how we do things.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: gurnard 18 March, 2020, 12:04:38 PM
Close schools - starve 1 in 3 kids

This should not be on the list in a civilized nation.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 18 March, 2020, 01:54:48 PM
It's a digression, but how the fuck does one of the richest countries in the world get to the point where so many kids depend on school meals for survival? Whenis shit is over, it seems like there are some very serious questions to be addressed about how we do things.

It really is disgusting.

Blue in the face at this point asking how the tories got in, and somehow remain in power. As much as the right wing media are at fault, you have to question the morals and empathy of a hell of a lot of voters.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 18 March, 2020, 02:01:40 PM
Blue in the face at this point asking how the tories got in, and somehow remain in power. As much as the right wing media are at fault, you have to question the morals and empathy of a hell of a lot of voters.

I'd never truly appreciated the power of the media until the last couple of years, having had multiple conversations with people I would otherwise have thought politically fairly sensible, or at least moderately savvy, absolutely convinced that Corbyn was more or less literally Satan. The sheer volume of demonstrable lies that have passed into 'common knowledge' as things 'everyone knows' is simply overwhelming.

You have to strip every political conversation back to first principles and work from the ground up, refuting every lie one by one and, even then, most of the time the other person doesn't believe you. You can see a shutter come down behind their eyse and suddenly you're a "cultist". It's exhausting, which was probably the point.

(Apologies for the derail.)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 18 March, 2020, 02:27:41 PM
Mrs IP still at work, because her company is still figuring out how to get fucking Slack working (their PCs still mostly run Internet Explorer, and they are admin-locked, with only one part-time tech support guy who works nights barely available to make changes), let alone remote access to their systems. But, hey, all’s good, because they’ve put in place a stringent set of requirements, including:

- Removing all filing from desks (in what’s principally a paper-based org)
- Forcing everyone to eat lunch IN THEIR CARS (and closing the kitchen facilities)
- Having all meetings outside, in the cold
- Denying anyone the means to move between the two buildings
- Cleaning every three hours
- Regular temperature checks

Now, I’d broadly on board with about one and a half of those. My wife notes: “Nobody is getting any work done.”

ARGH. Meanwhile, at mini-IP’s school, they are now down SIX staff and an increasing number of students, whose families are self-isolating. But they pretty much have to stay open, for various reasons. YAY, UK! We’re doing so well!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Richard 18 March, 2020, 02:51:41 PM
The best arguments against Brexit were always that Brussels is less incompetent and less heartless than Westminster. </Brexit>
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 18 March, 2020, 02:59:54 PM
The best arguments against Brexit were always that Brussels is less incompetent and less heartless than Westminster. </Brexit>

One friend of mine (before that date in 2017) claimed that the worst thing about the EU was how corrupt it was.  This was at the height of (one of) the expenses scandal(s).
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 18 March, 2020, 03:08:46 PM
Whenis shit is over, it seems like there are some very serious questions to be addressed about how we do things.

Those questions have been asked over and over by UK charities for about a decade now.  It has been widely discussed in such papers as The Guardian and The Independent for many years also.

Does anyone remember the visit from UN Special Rapporteur Phil Alston, and his report on UK poverty?  He put his incredibly damning report in front of Conservatives and they basically denied the existence of starving children.

Here's his report, if anyone is interested:

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=23881&LangID=E


Here's how government reacted:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/may/24/un-poverty-expert-hits-back-over-uk-ministers-denial-of-facts-philip-alston


The point being, I guess, is that we've been screaming this until we are blue in the face for years and nothing has changed. What is the solution though, outside of violent revolution?


Jim - totally hear you.  The media, including FB and Twitter, have been on a massive pogrom of propaganda, lies, half-truths, misinfo, confusion and goodness knows what else with the sole aim of keeping Corbyn out of power.  It is a well established tactic which we have seen from tobacco companies, and also (you've guessed it) the fossil fuel industry re climate change.  Sow doubt and discord to prevent action. The tactics are tried, tested, and incredibly successful.

Anyway, I digress.  Apologies everyone for derailing the thread.

On a COVID-19 related note, I am now working from home.  As is my partner.  I should be glad, but she has a really loud telephone manner, and the kid next door to our spare room where I have set up office plays Kanye West really loud.

On the plus side I've eaten so much cheese the toilet roll shortage won't be an issue.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 18 March, 2020, 03:13:06 PM

I'd never truly appreciated the power of the media until the last couple of years, having had multiple conversations with people I would otherwise have thought politically fairly sensible, or at least moderately savvy, absolutely convinced that Corbyn was more or less literally Satan.

Supermarkets are currently stripped of products and people don't even know why they bought them, so I'd say the lie that the media doesn't effectively brainwash people has had its day.

What got me about the incredible reach of right wing media was when I recently had to replace all the tvs in the flat, and so without much choice in the matter I ended up with "smart" tvs, which are like regular tvs but cluttered with pop-up ads like you get on your phone.  It is remarkably easy to get into the Youtube app because it comes right up on the screen as an option, which means that the default news videos on Youtube (from places like the Daily Mail and Telegraph YT channels) are right there on your tv, circumventing television broadcasting regulations and likely being watched uncritically by many old biddies who consider it equivalent to anything they see on BBC news.  I can't even imagine the ramifications of the Youtube recommendations algorithm on any lengthy viewing session that begins with a Daily Mail video.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: blackmocco 18 March, 2020, 04:01:35 PM
Can't lie, sitting in Los Angeles I'm more concerned about people than viruses. LA is notoriously non-neighbourly. I've lived in places before for years and never gotten to know who lived next door. There's a good argument to be made that maybe this city doesn't have the greatest cross-section of humanity seeing as most of the residents are here to "make it" at any cost and genuine human interaction is kinda the opposite of that goal. (Yes, that's a gross generalisation, I know. Truthfully, the people who were born and grew up here are the only ones immune to the call of the Siren) In any case, everyone is hoarding here, a lot of the supermarkets are stripped to the bone and gun sales are booming. I'm hardly here to defend Ireland and her culture from fault but at least back home, I'd feel reasonably confident that if shit went down, people in the immediate vicinity would have my back and I'd have theirs. My mum died last October and I've been living away from home for over twenty years but I was struck by how caring and concerned all her neighbours were for her the last few years, even those of them that barely knew her. In LA, I'm not confident that kind of neighbourly concern is high on people's agendas. Ugh. Time will tell.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 18 March, 2020, 04:14:35 PM
Close schools - starve 1 in 3 kids

This should not be on the list in a civilized nation.

Some quick space math gets 3 million may rely on school meals (https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/03/12/uk-school-closures-could-leave-children-hungry#) out of a student population of approximately 10,320,811 (https://www.besa.org.uk/key-uk-education-statistics/).

So that's 29% (UK).

In the US, it's 22 million (https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qjdnjx/22-million-kids-rely-on-school-for-meals-heres-what-theyre-doing-during-closures) out of 56.6 million (https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=372), which is 39%. (Highly skewed by area: so in New York City it's 74%.)

I don't know about in the UK, but locally (WA, US) the schools provide meals all through the summer as well: which is why they've been able to quickly start providing takeaway meals during this school closure - they've just switched to the summer model of distribution. The UK could do the same. You could suggest it to your local school, or MP, or..?

---

Moving away from meals, the other thing schools provide is a stable environment and a caring adult presence: which isn't necessarily available at home. In our street, there are at least three elementary age kids who basically look after themselves when school's not on: their parents and other carers are out at work from early to late in poorly paid jobs.

It's not possible to "packed lunch" our way out of those problems.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 18 March, 2020, 05:03:11 PM
Perhaps it’s different elsewhere, but outside of school time, you don’t get anything in the UK. Even in school time, there are major limits. Basically, you get free meals in infant school, but — at mini-IP’s school — have to ‘subscribe’ to milk. In junior school, you start paying for meals. Outside of term time, there are clubs you can join, but they cost money as well.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 18 March, 2020, 05:17:33 PM
The point being, I guess, is that we've been screaming this until we are blue in the face for years and nothing has changed. What is the solution though, outside of violent revolution?

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 18 March, 2020, 05:46:44 PM
Schools closing from Friday.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 18 March, 2020, 06:21:28 PM
Schools closing from Friday.

Though some nurseries and private schools will be involved in taking on children of NHS and other priority workers. 

Exams are suspended for this year.  Children will somehow still get qualifications - quite how has not been revealed, and it's Boris Johnson so details are not in evidence.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 18 March, 2020, 06:34:49 PM
I've never been a Boris fan, but it's not his fault that this is difficult and doesn't have easy answers. I defy anyone to come up with easy answers to almost any question about daily life at the moment.

How do we educate with closed schools? How do we pay for things without an income?

You can generalize the question: how do we carry on as before when we can't carry on as before? Even realizing what the question is, is difficult. Assume you solve the question of qualifications: do we then send people off to college and university in the Autumn? Or are we still in lock-down then? What jobs exist then? What is the timescale of the curve-flattening exercise?

I predict rationing. And more military involvement. And nationalization of vital industries.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 18 March, 2020, 06:43:05 PM
Or to put it another way: it's total war.

But this time with a virus, not a nation.

This is a familiar if horribly difficult concept, but if we refuse to let our vulnerable be murdered en masse by this thing, which we unequivocally do, then we must accept that the whole of our society and economy has to be redirected to this end for the time being.

And when we win, which we will at enormous cost, we have to take a long hard look like at ourselves and decide what we are prepared to do to stop this happening again.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 18 March, 2020, 07:38:45 PM
While you’re doing that, please also prep for the droughts, floods, heatwaves, sea level rise and crop failure that are already with us but getting exponentially worse every year. To quote an archaeologist:

“You really, truly do not want to see the text chains being sent between archaeologists who study collapse of civilizations.”

We need to be ready to rock once we’re through this, ‘cos worse is on its way.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 18 March, 2020, 07:44:49 PM
At this point, money is exposed as the fiction that it is. The government has two options—pretend that all the old economic ‘realities’ still apply and let a few hundred thousand people die, or adopt some policies that three months ago we were told were communist heresy and would mean the end of the world.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Dandontdare 18 March, 2020, 08:47:18 PM
My  nephew's a primary school teacher and even though they're still open to the end of the week, attendance was about 20% yesterday.

"I hope you're not going shopping"  I said to my mum. "Of course not" she replied, "if we need any bits, your dad gets them when he picks up the newspaper"  ::)

Although I think the seriousness is sinking in as she was shocked that there was no gin in Aldi on Monday.

I told work I'd just flown back from Canaries and that I felt fine, no temperature, but I do have a chesty cough (mainly from smoking too much) - they told me not to come in!  :D
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Eamonn Clarke 18 March, 2020, 09:06:59 PM
Day 18 in the Covid NHS aka project mayhem, and 20% of our staff are off already while we field literally hundreds and hundreds of phone calls. Pausing every now and then to put all the gear on and see patients in our designated isolation room.

The toilet roll phenomenon is affecting prescription supply chains already with numerous requests for paracetamol “just in case”, blue salbutamol inhalers “just in case”, and “can I have 3 or 6 or even 9 months worth of my repeat prescriptions now, just in case?”

BTW the fact that the paper masks the department of health sent us went past their use by date in 2016 is apparently just fine.

Good luck, everyone.
Stay safe and now please wash your hands.
Eamonn
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Steve Green 18 March, 2020, 09:12:31 PM
Take care Eamonn,

I would have hoped pictures of a temp morgue being erected in London might persuade people, but seeing clips of fuckwits in gyms wanting to 'take it on the chin' just makes me despair.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 18 March, 2020, 09:14:31 PM
We need to be ready to rock once we’re through this, ‘cos worse is on its way.

Absolutely. This is a dress rehearsal for the real crisis, but I'm hoping against hope that the fact that no-one knows their cues, marks or lines, and both the sets and the costumes appear to be for a different play entirely, wakes everyone the fuck up.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 18 March, 2020, 09:22:46 PM

Good luck, everyone.
Stay safe and now please wash your hands.
Eamonn

Hang in there Eamonn, you utter legend. I’m sure I speak for all of us here when I ask that you pass on our thoughts and best wishes to your colleagues too.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 18 March, 2020, 09:47:31 PM
At this point, money is exposed as the fiction that it is. The government has two options—pretend that all the old economic ‘realities’ still apply and let a few hundred thousand people die, or adopt some policies that three months ago we were told were communist heresy and would mean the end of the world.

Indeed.

I suspect, however, that the Powers That Shouldn't Be will use this current situation to further their money-as-chains agenda. They've been trying to eradicate cash for years and replace it with digital currency - which sounds good until one realises that authorities will then be able to switch off any individual's money for any reason. All they have to say is that notes and coins spread the Virus of the Day and people will actually beg for cash to be abolished. Classic problem, reaction, solution.

Personally, I'm not over worried about this latest outbreak. What does worry me is how this situation is going to be used to further curtail freedoms and rights for the masses, and increase the freedoms and rights of "authorities." Sure, steps should be taken to combat the virus - but will those steps be retraced when the crisis is over? I doubt it. Once a government gives itself a power, it rarely gives it up again.

We're going to see a lot of Draconian measures instigated, things authoritarians have been dreaming of for a long time, and people will accept them through fear. Never let a good crisis go to waste.

There's a lot of weird surrounding this year's virus, from the idea that at least one of the five strains of corona originated in the US but was either covered up by or misdiagnosed as a result of vaping to the suggestion that it's a weaponised virus which either breached quarantine or was deployed on purpose. I don't know, to be honest.

Whatever's occurring, I think the best thing to do is act sensibly on a personal level because all the "elites" want to do is use it to spread fear and panic in order to advance their own agendas. Which seems to be working better this time around. When I remember all the other civilisation-ending diseases the MSM has been waving at us for the past few years, I can't help but think about "The Boy Who Cried Wolf." Perhaps the whole planet should remember that fable and demand a better, more balanced media, amongst other things.

I'm not going to get into arguments over this post - this is just how I see things - I may be right and I may be wrong, I really don't know.

Stay well, everyone, and don't give in to the fear.


: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 18 March, 2020, 11:14:16 PM
I know you don't want an argument Sharkie, and I totally accept that: I'd just say that the stats (and their limitations) on this one are fully open from the start thanks to the WHO, and from those this isn't a 'civilisation ending disease', and nor has it been presented as one: civilisation could proceed without the 3-10% largely elderly and vulnerable, as has been suggested by pricks possibly to the benefit of the hale taxpayer: but it turns out that many people aren't prepared to accept that, and would rather turn civilisation upside down than not even try to minimise casualties. I take that show of humanity as a positive.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 19 March, 2020, 01:38:53 AM
Not to take Sharky's side - because he's a dirty anarcho-commie and we all know syndicalism is where it's at - but Johnson is already signing into law, without a vote in the Commons, a two-year period of what is effectively martial law for the UK, and tbh, I think the only reason we're getting the watered-down version of it is so that our chickenshit troops have their hands free for some pre-planned military adventure.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Cyberleader2000 19 March, 2020, 03:07:15 AM
there are times where I think we really need to let darwinism "survival of the fittest" happen and this is one of thros times.

https://sea.mashable.com/culture/9597/disgusting-coronavirus-challenge-has-people-licking-toilet-seats-and-doorknobs
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Eamonn Clarke 19 March, 2020, 09:47:32 AM
A useful watery analogy

https://youtu.be/nl6tTwxzCi8
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 19 March, 2020, 09:51:36 AM
People are really, really, losing their fucking minds.

Things we aren't going to run out of: milk, eggs, soap, toilet roll and baked beans.

Things we are going to run out of very soon: potatoes and tomatoes, which are largely imported at this time of year. Thanks to Just In Time supply chains, the stuff that would have been in the shops next week probably hasn't even been picked yet… and the places where they grow are all under lockdown.

As a bonus: remember all that flooding? The flooding that stopped UK farmers planting a wide variety of crops earlier this year…?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 19 March, 2020, 10:15:53 AM
Why the fuck are construction sites - and by extension me and my team - still working? No matter how many social distancing/hygiene measures we enforce, most of the gang still have to get the bus or share lifts. And now the bus services (up to now reasonably empty and well-spaced) have been slashed, so everyone was jammed in this morning again. This is all pure greed.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 19 March, 2020, 12:26:57 PM

As a bonus: remember all that flooding? The flooding that stopped UK farmers planting a wide variety of crops earlier this year…?

Yep - it's a perfect storm: food supplies interrupted by climate change, Hostile Environment for migrant workers meaning food left rotting in the fields, European supply chains petering out as folk self-isolate, so many folk ALREADY hungry due to poverty, and of course let's not forget about the effects of Brexit and the complete balls-up which is government right now.

I see trouble ahead.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 19 March, 2020, 12:34:13 PM
Personally, I'm not over worried about this latest outbreak. What does worry me is how this situation is going to be used to further curtail freedoms and rights for the masses, and increase the freedoms and rights of "authorities." Sure, steps should be taken to combat the virus - but will those steps be retraced when the crisis is over? I doubt it. Once a government gives itself a power, it rarely gives it up again.

Don't be silly - after the first world war ended, licensing laws regarding pub opening times were loosened again, weren't they? ...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: von Boom 19 March, 2020, 01:01:02 PM
People are really, really, losing their fucking minds.

Things we aren't going to run out of: milk, eggs, soap, toilet roll and baked beans.

Things we are going to run out of very soon: potatoes and tomatoes, which are largely imported at this time of year. Thanks to Just In Time supply chains, the stuff that would have been in the shops next week probably hasn't even been picked yet… and the places where they grow are all under lockdown.

As a bonus: remember all that flooding? The flooding that stopped UK farmers planting a wide variety of crops earlier this year…?
My wife's brother-in-law was bragging he had enough toilet roll to last them for at least a year. When I asked if I could get a package, just one mind, he said he'd have to think about it and come up with a suitable value if he did let me have one. Prick.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 19 March, 2020, 01:07:09 PM
he said he'd have to think about it and come up with a suitable value if he did let me have one. Prick.

Unbefuckingleivable. Kill the twat. Take what you want. Y'know… if that's how he wants things to work.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: strontium71 19 March, 2020, 01:23:54 PM
People are really, really, losing their fucking minds.

Things we aren't going to run out of: milk, eggs, soap, toilet roll and baked beans.

Things we are going to run out of very soon: potatoes and tomatoes, which are largely imported at this time of year. Thanks to Just In Time supply chains, the stuff that would have been in the shops next week probably hasn't even been picked yet… and the places where they grow are all under lockdown.

As a bonus: remember all that flooding? The flooding that stopped UK farmers planting a wide variety of crops earlier this year…?

See , I’m thinking what people should start doing is , if they have gardens that is , to assign a patch of their back gardens to crop growing , and get those potatoes in now. Other basics like lettuce , tomatoes , peas. Get them planted now , and with any ‘luck’ , they’ll be coming into their own when there could be shortages. Swap excess crops with neighbours. Your spare potatoes for their spare cabbage. Prepare now , it wouldn’t hurt either way. You’ll have free food regardless if the shops have enough veg for everyone. It’s a war with the virus , so start having that blitz spirit mindset. I don’t have a garden or any access to one , but god do I wish I did. I tell fellow workies to start this up in possible readiness , and I just get the usual meh 😕
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: von Boom 19 March, 2020, 01:28:59 PM
he said he'd have to think about it and come up with a suitable value if he did let me have one. Prick.

Unbefuckingleivable. Kill the twat. Take what you want. Y'know… if that's how he wants things to work.
Par for the course with this guy.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 19 March, 2020, 01:42:29 PM

See , I’m thinking what people should start doing is , if they have gardens that is , to assign a patch of their back gardens to crop growing , and get those potatoes in now. Other basics like lettuce , tomatoes , peas. Get them planted now , and with any ‘luck’ , they’ll be coming into their own when there could be shortages. Swap excess crops with neighbours. Your spare potatoes for their spare cabbage. Prepare now , it wouldn’t hurt either way. You’ll have free food regardless if the shops have enough veg for everyone. It’s a war with the virus , so start having that blitz spirit mindset. I don’t have a garden or any access to one , but god do I wish I did. I tell fellow workies to start this up in possible readiness , and I just get the usual meh 😕

Way ahead of you! (As are quite a few of my mates)

We’ve been setting up every spare bit of garden that isn’t lawn (and some bits that are) to grow all kinds of veg and herbs. My partner went into full-on Brexit preparedness mode after the first leave date was set.

We’ve already enjoyed bumper crops of potatoes and onions, but we’ve gone into full production mode now!

Peas, carrots, potatoes, onions, spring onions, strawberries, blackberries, herbs of all shapes and sizes etc etc. She’s even planted an apple tree and cherry tree for further down the line.

(https://i.imgur.com/gKHx2dy.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Jl9v51N.jpg)

I was also considering chickens last year after discussing their cost, care and initial outlay (excuse the pun) with John Wagner at Lawless. Wish I had now, as I’m down to five eggs left and there’s none in the shops.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: strontium71 19 March, 2020, 01:44:51 PM
That is actually really great to see there! Good work , very good work  :) :)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 19 March, 2020, 02:13:38 PM
We have whatever the opposite of green fingers are. Any growing tips — and advice for dealing with the seemingly infinite number of slugs in our garden — would be welcome. Perhaps that in itself could be a thread here.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 19 March, 2020, 02:20:53 PM
Good idea.  :D

https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=46328.0
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 19 March, 2020, 04:21:08 PM
I knew all this felt familiar - I just re-read Issue 46 of Moore's Swamp Thing (it was my second one), and as usual the Magus puts his stained be-ringed finger on it:

"Everyone who's ever hoped to be long dead by doomsday looked up, and the feeling in their stomachs was just as they always knew it would be.  It seemed unfair, but then it had to happen in somebody's lifetime".

Now to dig out the relevant issues of Promethea to see how his views matured...

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Leigh S 19 March, 2020, 04:57:50 PM
Obvious solution is to shit on his lawn.


My wife's brother-in-law was bragging he had enough toilet roll to last them for at least a year. When I asked if I could get a package, just one mind, he said he'd have to think about it and come up with a suitable value if he did let me have one. Prick.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Hawkmumbler 19 March, 2020, 06:06:06 PM
My main concern is juggling what few hours I can parse from work (40-50 hour week reduced to as little as 12) and keeping home, desperately trying not to pass anything onto my elderly grandparents.

It's quiet frightening times right now lads, not going to lie at all.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 19 March, 2020, 06:07:26 PM
Run oot o' bog roll? Dinnae fash: get yersel' an erse gadget like wan o' these (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Portable-Personal-Pregnant-Cleansing-Postpartum/dp/B07P4MP4RG/ref=pd_sbs_60_2/260-6199699-8413318?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07P4MP4RG&pd_rd_r=b351696c-0db8-44ee-a0ee-a8a23f27c138&pd_rd_w=LaQtZ&pd_rd_wg=BTDpT&pf_rd_p=96cae456-8d7a-4bc1-91c7-9b20b4dfd7c9&pf_rd_r=BAHZ4F50XVT4G03MZBWV&psc=1&refRID=BAHZ4F50XVT4G03MZBWV)!

Ra full title is a bit much, though (and missin' an apostrophe, so it is): "Portable Travel Bidet, Personal Bidet Sprayer for Kids Ass Washing,Pregnant Women Cleansing, Postpartum Clean, Handheld Travel Bidet with 450ML Water Capacity and Angled Nozzle Spray"
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: strontium71 19 March, 2020, 06:13:13 PM
My main concern is juggling what few hours I can parse from work (40-50 hour week reduced to as little as 12) and keeping home, desperately trying not to pass anything onto my elderly grandparents.

It's quiet frightening times right now lads, not going to lie at all.

Never thought I’d ever be telling someone I’m frightened, but when half the work staff get put on immediate 3 day week for THREE months , and knowing I’ll be next within...dunno , then I , too , am genuinely emotional and a wreck right now. Started off as a not too bad day , considering. Then BAM , people are worrying about just trying to get through the next week , let alone 3 months. Minimum.
I always thought I was unempathic , that I didn’t really care about people’s lives , as they didn’t affect me. Turns out I was very , very wrong.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: moly 19 March, 2020, 07:41:05 PM
One of the worst things for me is how all this is going to affect people's mental health and the more than likely people committing suicide as the impact gets worse and worse
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 19 March, 2020, 08:36:39 PM
One effect of all this is that we’re seeing a whole bunch of conspiracy theories pop up on social media and the web. I won’t go into what they are, but you can probably guess.

Dr. John Cook and Dr. Stephan Lewandowsky (Creator and contributor respectively to EDX course ‘Denial 101x’ - THE online course about understanding the psychology of climate change denial) had planned to release a handbook on conspiracy theories next month. However, they released it today as they could see its needed! It’s a short pamphlet of about 10 pages, but a great look at the modus operandi and psychology of conspiracy theorists.

Here you go:


https://www.climatechangecommunication.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ConspiracyTheoryHandbook.pdf
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 19 March, 2020, 08:55:57 PM
I must be clearly doing something wrong.  I keep missing all these conspiracy theories. 

Maybe someone is deliberately hiding them from me to keep me ignorant?   ::)

That's a cracking document though.  Well worth the short read.

Thanks for that.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 19 March, 2020, 10:37:41 PM
That's a cracker, cheers for that!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 20 March, 2020, 08:54:09 AM
No probs.  I don't know about you, but occasionally I've fallen foul of knee-jerk reactions to stuff posted on FB or Twitter without applying critical thought.

This checklist from the pamphlet is particularly useful for me:

Do I recognize the news organization that posted the story?
Does the information in the post seem believable?
Is the post written in a style that I expect from a professional news organization?
Is the post politically motivated?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IAMTHESYSTEM 20 March, 2020, 09:43:08 AM
There are expansive queues of people, all armed with trollies outside the local Supermarket every morning for the past three days. The time is at Six O'clock in the morning; I'm usually there buying stuff before I go home, have brekky then walk to work. It calms down a little, but the food stalls remain packed, and one of the staff complained to a customer that she couldn't understand why people are panicking so much. I'm afraid people are scared and perhaps with good reason. My Bosses E-Mailed me to say at least two of my current cleaning jobs will be on hold soon, and that means no pay if I'm not working. Oh well, I 'll just have to take a bit of a hit money-wise, though it's unsettling to think how quickly life has changed.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 20 March, 2020, 10:50:22 AM
So there I was on the bus yesterday, on my way to do my weekly food shop.

(It was the best of several bad options, as the nearest supermarket to me is about half-an-hours walk; I don't drive, live alone and am socially isolated, so I don't have the option of having someone to call upon - whom I could be certain was not infected - to ferry me back. Plus there's the whole social distancing thing to consider, which makes me averse to using taxis for the same reason.

Online shopping is out as well, given that there is now such a backlog in getting stuff delivered.

I also have COPD, so while I could walk the distance to the market okay, by the time I got back home with several, heavy, awkward bags of shopping, I would not need to wait for Corona to finish me off, lol.)

I had gone up to the top deck of the bus as it was relatively empty; also the noise from kids screeching on the lower deck was too much to deal with. (I am extremely noise sensitive and that kind of thing is like physical pain to me.)

At the far end of the bus, a woman - with a young boy beside her - was close to coughing up her lungs onto the window facing her. I mean, what part of 'Self-Isolate if you think that you're infected' did this moron not understand? While she was far enough away from me, that I can reasonably hope I was out of the firing line as it were, I nevertheless had to go within a couple of feet from her in order to make my way back downstairs and to the exit. I was practically crossing my fingers that she would not start hacking up again as I drew nearer. Luckily I made it down and out of the bus, just as I could hear her once again barking away like billy-oh upstairs.

The return journey was made almost as unpleasant by two late-teen skangers, who were loudly blaring out some shite modern pop music on their phone. My polite and very courteous request for them to turn it down a bit was met with a firm "No! We want to listen to our music!" by the surly, baseball-hatted, male teen of the species. I ended up just getting off the bus as I could not bare this racket anymore. (If there were a virus that exclusively affected ignorant, selfish, obnoxious bastards like them, I would most certainly not be shedding any tears on their behalf).

I'm done with using public transport now for the near-future, as it is just not worth the hassle or distress anymore - especially at a time like this. It looks like I have no other choice than to risk getting a taxi back from now on. And considering that I have a free public-transport travel pass- on account of being on Invalidity Benefit - that pisses me off even more so.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 20 March, 2020, 12:54:16 PM
Our local buses operate a "no speakers" policy on phones after a bunch of people signed a petition to whoever it is that runs the local routes.  I'm not sure if the drivers and station managers are overreaching their authority, but people don't seem to be in any hurry to overturn the rule, as most routes seem to be choked with obnoxious neds on a sightseeing trip.

My brother works for the DWP and only found out yesterday that somebody who came in to work on St Pat's refused to leave the building when co-workers noticed he was feverish and sweating buckets, as management wouldn't give him a sick day after he was on the premises.  Apparently all of the building managers have decreed themselves as essential staff so they can work from home.
I am beginning to suspect that the DWP is not a good institution.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 20 March, 2020, 01:34:04 PM
Mindscape Bonus Episode | Tara Smith on Coronavirus, Pandemics, and What We Can Do. (https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2020/03/18/bonus-tara-smith-on-coronavirus-pandemics-and-what-we-can-do/)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 20 March, 2020, 03:10:43 PM
Our local buses operate a "no speakers" policy on phones after a bunch of people signed a petition to whoever it is that runs the local routes.  I'm not sure if the drivers and station managers are overreaching their authority, but people don't seem to be in any hurry to overturn the rule, as most routes seem to be choked with obnoxious neds on a sightseeing trip.

My brother works for the DWP and only found out yesterday that somebody who came in to work on St Pat's refused to leave the building when co-workers noticed he was feverish and sweating buckets, as management wouldn't give him a sick day after he was on the premises.  Apparently all of the building managers have decreed themselves as essential staff so they can work from home.
I am beginning to suspect that the DWP is not a good institution.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 20 March, 2020, 03:44:28 PM
Apols for double post, Professor, but I inadvertently pressed the send button before responding to your post.

Interestingly enough, the Parliament here in the Emerald Isle has just finished debating Emergency  Legislation around a number of measures dealing with, and relating to this current virus. Amongst those, are powers that would allow those suspected of being infected with the illness to be forcibly detained.* At the time of writing, this legislation has now been agreed upon and has been passed on to the President for signing into law.

Given some of the clueless and selfish behaviour by people that I have witnessed recently, I can understand the necessity of bringing in such draconian - albeit short term - measures. But while I don't think that this State is in any immediate danger of being turned into a Dictatorship - despite how much we may rightly deride many of our politicians - the thought of such laws being enacted do, at the same time, fill me with a certain amount of unease.

And I would certainly worry about other countries', where certain unscrupulous individuals and regimes might use this current pandemic for their own nefarious ends.

Just out of curiousity, Professor Bear, what does DWP stand for?

*The link to this article is below.

https://www.thejournal.ie/covid-19-emergency-legislation-5052749-Mar2020/
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 20 March, 2020, 04:20:10 PM
Interestingly enough, the Parliament here in the Emerald Isle has just finished debating Emergency  Legislation around a number of measures dealing with, and relating to this current virus. Amongst those, are powers that would allow those suspected of being infected with the illness to be forcibly detained.* At the time of writing, this legislation has now been agreed upon and has been passed on to the President for signing into law.

Funny you should mention that.  On Tuesday (at 23:59 I think, so in effect from Wednesday) the Isle of Man passed powers that people could be fined or confined  if they failed to self-isolate while showing symptoms.  The first person in the UK to be arrested is currently kicking their heels in a specially-prepared police cell right now...

Just out of curiousity, Professor Bear, what does DWP stand for?

The Department of Work and Pensions.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 20 March, 2020, 06:07:35 PM
Bingeing Fargo at an alarming rate. Charming performances start to finish, offsetting moments of almost suffocating tension. Top stuff.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Hawkmumbler 20 March, 2020, 06:08:33 PM
Well, that's buggered the self employed.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 20 March, 2020, 06:15:28 PM
Bingeing Fargo at an alarming rate. Charming performances start to finish, offsetting moments of almost suffocating tension. Top stuff.

I may have posted this in the wrong thread. But I suppose it's tangentially relevant.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 20 March, 2020, 07:30:13 PM

Funny you should mention that.  On Tuesday (at 23:59 I think, so in effect from Wednesday) the Isle of Man passed powers that people could be fined or confined  if they failed to self-isolate while showing symptoms.  The first person in the UK to be arrested is currently kicking their heels in a specially-prepared police cell right now...

Just out of curiousity, Professor Bear, what does DWP stand for?

The Department of Work and Pensions.

Thanks, Professor.

I just finished watching 'V for Vendetta'.

At this point in our shared history, it seems scarily appropriate. Let's stay strong, people, and do what we can to see that we get through the days ahead - and triumph.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 20 March, 2020, 09:18:28 PM
Well, that's buggered the self employed.
My MP has cheerfully stated we “won’t be disadvantaged” because we can pay our tax six months late (once, when another six months is due), and because we may be eligible for UC.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Mister Pops 20 March, 2020, 10:59:52 PM
Bingeing Fargo at an alarming rate. Charming performances start to finish, offsetting moments of almost suffocating tension. Top stuff.

I may have posted this in the wrong thread. But I suppose it's tangentially relevant.

Totally relevant. I need stuff to watch in quarantine and I remember enjoying the 1st 2 series. Although it is a bit of a digression as it lacks your defeated resignation
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 21 March, 2020, 09:24:59 AM
‘Serve serve serve. In the end it is the servants who will save us all.’

https://twitter.com/schwarzenegger/status/1240786709022793728?s=21

Did Arnie just turn into a socialist?!

‘The workers control the means of production’ etc.

After decades of worth being defined by how much cash you have it is so horrible it takes a crisis like this to expose that lie!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 21 March, 2020, 10:28:29 AM
Epic thread re how South Wales NHS is prepping to care for COVID-19 victims.

It’s a must read - a real insight into the ‘war footing’ hard work that is going on.

https://twitter.com/adavies4/status/1241297992507895808?s=21
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: von Boom 21 March, 2020, 01:47:09 PM
Called my mum last night to see how things were going there. Everyone seems okay for the moment, but she did tell me that my uncle is in desperate need of quadruple bypass surgery. He's seen the surgeon at the end of the month to discuss the surgery, however it's not likely to happen until the virus situation is somewhat resolved. Given the times we're looking at he's not likely to see the summer.

We need to alter the death toll to include those that aren't receiving necessary treatment because of it.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 21 March, 2020, 02:24:41 PM
Sorry to hear it, von Boom. Here’s hoping your uncle can somehow get through this.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Hawkmumbler 21 March, 2020, 02:45:51 PM
So. I might be going into quarantine.

My manager has been instructed to go into quarantine by HO, she lives with her sister who has been diagnosed with the virus. My last shift was a close with the manager on Wednesday.

I've no nowhere to go besides my family home with the grandparents, an at risk couple.

Honestly have no idea what i'm going to do. After the stress of the last few years this really isn't what I needed from 2020.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Mattofthespurs 21 March, 2020, 03:18:29 PM
I'll come out of a self imposed ban from this site (writing not reading) just to let you all know that my Wife is on day 11 of having this virus.
She has had a dry cough, very nasty sore throat and a mild temperature. She is on the mend but still gets tired easily and is in a constant state of some pain or another.

However, other than feeling grotty she is ok. She is 51, doesn't smoke, hardly drinks and never gets ill. But she does work in London (the filthy place) and think she picked up a couple of good doses from there.

On the plus side my Son and I had a mild cough and sore throat about a week before so we are all hoping that we have had it and seen it on it's way. Fingers crossed. Stay safe everyone.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: von Boom 21 March, 2020, 03:24:30 PM
Sorry to hear it, von Boom. Here’s hoping your uncle can somehow get through this.
Thanks, IP. I really hope he's able to get the surgery in time. He's only 62 and he took me to see Star Wars in the cinema when I was 7. While I was growing up he gifted me with many of his old scifi/fantasy/horror books. I owe him a lot.

So. I might be going into quarantine.

My manager has been instructed to go into quarantine by HO, she lives with her sister who has been diagnosed with the virus. My last shift was a close with the manager on Wednesday.

I've no nowhere to go besides my family home with the grandparents, an at risk couple.

Honestly have no idea what i'm going to do. After the stress of the last few years this really isn't what I needed from 2020.
That's awful news, Hawk. I hope you and your family come out of it unscathed.

I'll come out of a self imposed ban from this site (writing not reading) just to let you all know that my Wife is on day 11 of having this virus.
She has had a dry cough, very nasty sore throat and a mild temperature. She is on the mend but still gets tired easily and is in a constant state of some pain or another.
Glad to hear she's mending, Matt. You haven't been afflicted, I hope.

All the best to everyone.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 21 March, 2020, 03:27:02 PM
Jeez lads! Good thoughts go out to you all, and fingers crossed in every case.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 21 March, 2020, 05:13:20 PM

Vital Facts About Covid-19. (https://www.justfactsdaily.com/vital-facts-about-covid-19/)

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 21 March, 2020, 07:31:39 PM
Fascinating that a right-wing US website can cherry-pick facts with such confidence that they contradict every single medical practioner and statistician in the world.

I presume the authors will be presenting themselves at the 800 Italian funerals resulting from today's no-worse-than-sesonal-flu to inform them that this is all spun out of proportion by the global liberal elite, probably led by Ocasio-Cortez.

Oh wait, they won't, because there won't be any funerals. Not for those poor people, not for the thousands tomortow and the next day, and not for the millions of US citizens that will follow them.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 21 March, 2020, 07:40:43 PM
Thanks Sharky.  A nice, simple piece of work.  Helpful for panicking relatives, methinks.   


Vital Facts About Covid-19. (https://www.justfactsdaily.com/vital-facts-about-covid-19/)



In the meantime, stay safe folks.

Oh, and if anyone wants a laugh check out recent videos of Trump at press conferences.

There's a great one where he goes full "toddler-tantrum" at a reporter for asking the wrong question and another one where one of his advisers does a face-palm / grimace as he listens to some of the crap Trump spouts.   :o :o :o :o
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Hawkmumbler 21 March, 2020, 07:53:45 PM

Vital Facts About Covid-19. (https://www.justfactsdaily.com/vital-facts-about-covid-19/)

JustFactDaily is an affiliate of known snake oil merchant Alex Jones and his conspiracy train Info Wars, Sharks.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JOE SOAP 21 March, 2020, 08:02:53 PM
Vital Facts About Covid-19. (https://www.justfactsdaily.com/vital-facts-about-covid-19/)

The daily look of ‘this wasn’t supposed to happen on my watch’ terror on Boris’s face tells me the consequences of COVID-19 are not hype.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 21 March, 2020, 08:06:51 PM
Vital Facts About Covid-19. (https://www.justfactsdaily.com/vital-facts-about-covid-19/)

I do wonder about your motivations, Shark. I assume you've heard of Occam's Razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor). If you apply that idea here you just have to ask the simple question of what's more likely?

A. The WHO and plenty of other reputable scientific sources, plus evidence from Italy and China are persuading governments around the world to put their entire economies on hold in order to try and halt the spread of a virus which probably has about a 1% mortality rate and is threatening to overwhelm health service infrastructures on a global scale - which would push that death rate MUCH HIGHER.

B. They're all wrong, but you found the truth on a shit website.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Mattofthespurs 21 March, 2020, 08:07:05 PM

Glad to hear she's mending, Matt. You haven't been afflicted, I hope.

All the best to everyone.

Thanks. Best wishes.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Mister Pops 21 March, 2020, 08:58:39 PM
Vital Facts About Covid-19. (https://www.justfactsdaily.com/vital-facts-about-covid-19/)

I do wonder about your motivations, Shark. I assume you've heard of Occam's Razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor).

I like Newton's Lazer Sword* personally. It's both more precise and more dangerous.

*Anything that can't be proved by experiment should be discounted.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 22 March, 2020, 02:36:15 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EMyowi6WsAEvL5H.jpg)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 22 March, 2020, 07:28:33 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EMyowi6WsAEvL5H.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EMyowi6WsAEvL5H.jpg)

Heh, that gave me a giggle :D

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 22 March, 2020, 08:53:26 AM
Funt is a very bad man. But chuckles are in short supply this morning, so he's forgiven.

Dreading going in to work tomorrow, the Shark Shed seems like a better place to be visiting losing oneself in off-the-wall thinkifying and Ezquerra chat over a pipe or two of the Longbottom Leaf. Stay safe mate, and one day I'll carry out my threat.

For now i'm instead enjoying Rebellion's ingenious gift of a story about a population driven insane by a contaminant from the East prior to the breakdown of society and mass-executions in the street, and the death of half its citizens. Such an escape from grim reality!

Casefiles 5 looks amazing on my phone, the repro seems gorgeous. However, as always I struggle with comic on a screen. Anyone suggest the best viewing App for a pretty teeny Android?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 22 March, 2020, 08:54:46 AM
Double Post Deleted
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 22 March, 2020, 10:00:13 AM
Just in case anyone was uncertain what actual honest-to-God evil looks like, here's a snippet from today's Sunday Times by Tim Shipman, their political editor:

(https://i.imgur.com/MPU34Uu.jpg)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 22 March, 2020, 10:10:54 AM
I came here to post that exact same things. His ‘tactic’ lost us days of preventative measures and has likely cost hundreds of lives.

When this is over, let us not forget who brought it upon us.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 22 March, 2020, 10:28:10 AM
When this is over, let us not forget who brought it upon us.

I'm not a fan of violence in any form, but I find myself thinking that if Dominic Cummings' political career ended with a lamp post and a length of piano wire, I wouldn't shed many tears.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: strontium71 22 March, 2020, 10:32:19 AM
For anyone stuck indoors , and likes the radio , I’ve just come across this link to a dead-easy to use Worldwide station finder. I’m listening to an Oz 80’s station , and it’s like I’m playing Vice City again!

http://radio.garden/visit/mazara-del-vallo/CSkOWLOq
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 22 March, 2020, 10:44:59 AM
When this is over, let us not forget who brought it upon us.
People will. The Tories will, I’m certain, end up following Trump in blaming the Chinese. When we fall out of EU agencies and the single market, ongoing shortages will be blamed on the EU. It’s of course hyperbolic to say we’re on a Norsefire trajectory, but we’re not a million miles away from that. People are their own worst enemies sometimes, and the Tories are currently polling with an absolute majority (which, if repeated in a GE, hasn’t happened since 1931, and would give them well over 400 MPs).

Alternatively, just maybe we’ll get a backlash, akin to Churchill after WW2. (And hopefully by that point a decent Labour administration will be around.)

As for C19, the reality is hitting home here. I now feel guilty about going into town, because it wasn’t entirely necessary, although I did buy supplies (we have a delivery arriving on Tuesday, but locals have been getting as little as 25% of their orders), and get medication for myself (although I have a small overflow that I built up as we headed towards Brexit). I mean, it wasn’t going to pubs, but…

Mrs IP’s spiralling. If she stops and thinks, she gets tearful. Iceland stated they are likely to stop all flights soon, and so today she said “I really hope nothing happens to my family, because…” and just kind of stopped. But even internal stuff is going to be like that soon enough.

Mini-G’s still bouncy at least. For her right now, this is an extended school holiday, albeit one where her gymnastics sessions are cancelled, and where she’s not allowed to see her friends or grandparents. And if we end up with Spain-style lockdown, she won’t be allowed out of the house either. I’m at this point very grateful we have a garden at least, which is slowly transforming into something usable after a winter of pretending to be a swamp. (Even our 7kg dog ‘sank’ in the ‘grass’ when he went out to do a wee!)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 22 March, 2020, 11:43:01 AM
I came here to post that exact same things. His ‘tactic’ lost us days of preventative measures and has likely cost hundreds of lives.

When this is over, let us not forget who brought it upon us.
We live about half-way between a primary school and the borough hospital.  A few days ago one of the teachers from the school died in the hospital.  If Johnson had called the schools out earlier, would she still be alive?  What about all the other teachers, staff and children at the school?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 22 March, 2020, 11:45:27 AM
When this is over, let us not forget who brought it upon us.
People will. The Tories will, I’m certain, end up following Trump in blaming the Chinese. When we fall out of EU agencies and the single market, ongoing shortages will be blamed on the EU
Unfortunately I think you're right.  Even in the midst of Johnson completely failing to show any leadership qualities, before we broke up for home-working at least two people at work said what a great job he was doing.  That was when they were being forced to use public transport (about 80% of usual passengers) with one fifth of usual services.  Even those who normally managed to get seats ended up pressed up against strangers for half an hour.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 22 March, 2020, 12:33:23 PM

You're always welcome, Tordels - as are you all (I'm not nearly so scary in real life...).

Anyhoo, I've been reading some second-hand reports about a Bloomberg report - unfortunately, my 'phone can't access the Bloomberg site at all (annoying transcoding error). I'll post what the reports of this report typically say and then the link. If anyone feels like it, could you possibly check the link to see if the reports of the report are real and/or accurate and pass on any links that might be included? Thanks, guys:)

Typical report of the Bloomberg report:

"More than 99% of Italy's coronavirus fatalities were people
who suffered from previous medical conditions, according
to a study by the country's national health authority.
After deaths from the virus reached more than 2,500, with a
150% increase in the past week, health authorities have
been combing through data to provide clues to help combat
the spread of the disease.
Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte's government is evaluating
whether to extend a nationwide lockdown beyond the
beginning of April, daily La Stampa reported Wednesday.
Italy has more than 31,500 confirmed cases of the illness.
The new study could provide insight into why Italy's death
rate, at about 8% of total infected people, is higher than in
other countries.
The Rome-based institute has examined medical records of
about 18% of the country's coronavirus fatalities, finding
that just three victims, or 0.8% of the total, had no previous
pathology. Almost half of the victims suffered from at least
three prior illnesses and about a fourth had either one or
two previous conditions.
More than 75% had high blood pressure, about 35% had
diabetes and a third suffered from heart disease.
The average age of those who've died from the virus in Italy
is 79.5. As of March 17, 17 people under 50 had died from
the disease. All of Italy's victims under 40 have been males
with serious existing medical conditions.
While data released Tuesday point to a slowdown in the
increase of cases, with a 12.6% rise, a separate study shows
Italy could be underestimating the real number of cases by
testing only patients presenting symptoms.
According to the GIMBE Foundation, about 100,000 Italians
have contracted the virus, daily Il Sole 24 Ore reported. That
would bring back the country's death rate closer to the
global average of about 2%.
© Copyright 2020 Bloomberg News. All rights reserved."

And the supposed link:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-18/99-of-those-who-died-from-virus-had-other-illness-italy-says


: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 22 March, 2020, 12:55:24 PM

Coronavirus bill: summary of impacts. (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-bill-summary-of-impacts/coronavirus-bill-summary-of-impacts)

"The policy makes provision to postpone elections in England
and Wales scheduled for 7th May 2020 by a year to 6 May
2021. It also makes provision for other relevant elections
and referendums that may arise (for example, by-elections)
to be postponed up to 5 May 2021, and for supplementary
provisions to be made to handle the consequences of any
election postponements."

Eek...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 22 March, 2020, 02:13:21 PM
A few days ago one of the teachers from the school died in the hospital.  If Johnson had called the schools out earlier, would she still be alive?  What about all the other teachers, staff and children at the school?

Fair question.  That said, the 'school closure' is a complete and utter dog's breakfast.  Some schools are open, others are not.  No one really knows who is going to be available to provide staffing or where they are expected to go.  Then again, no one knows how many kids are going to turn up.  FUBAR is definitely an appropriate acronym.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JOE SOAP 22 March, 2020, 02:18:24 PM
Just in case anyone was uncertain what actual honest-to-God evil looks like, here's a snippet from today's Sunday Times by Tim Shipman, their political editor:

The final paragraph implies worse.

(https://i.imgur.com/1EcGSn6.jpg)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 22 March, 2020, 02:43:33 PM
The final paragraph implies worse.

This was the cause for much disbelief among myself and friends at the last pub meet-up we figured we were going to have for quite some time a few of weeks back.

The government was still actively peddling this line at the time, and you don't have to be a fucking epidemiologist to be able to multiply the UK population by a selection of predicted contagion rates and then by a pretty modest estimate of mortality rate.

Leaving aside the simple fact that 60-80% of the population infected doesn't get you to herd immunity, 60% at 0.7% mortality gives you more than 268,000 dead. You slide either of those numbers up significantly — like, say, to the 90%+ of the population with antibodies that you actually need for herd immunity, and you end up with a number in the region of the entire population of Liverpool or Bristol.

And that's before you attempt to factor in the simple truth that infections at that scale would be untreatable and people would just be left to die in emergency hospitals.

There's that Dominic Cummings 'genius' in action.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 22 March, 2020, 03:09:41 PM
When this is over, let us not forget who brought it upon us.

The UK media has already forgotten that Johnson's plan was to let hundreds of thousands die in order to preserve the economy, and there's currently a viral video of Trump going off on a journalist for not asking "the right questions".  The media won't help us, they'll actively work against us, and it's been made clear by the myopic politics of British centrists over the last few years that we'll never be allowed to have a viable opposition, no matter what Tory-lite scam artist ends up being crowned leader and lauded as "the savior of Labour" by people who never vote Labour and never will.
We are on our own and we're fucked.

When most of us emerge on the other side of this, there might be an expectation that the NHS, staffed by people who currently won't see their homes for weeks or months - and some of those will never see their homes again - might be appreciated for its efforts, but I'll bet you actual money that what we'll see instead is capitalisation on this disaster to replace the NHS with a private model by hook or by crook.
If I was a Tory, I'd be subtle and say we need to draft in more private contractors to replace exhausted NHS staff and create jobs for those left unemployed by the lockdown, but bereft of a media to hold them to account, they'll probably just put American healthcare companies in charge of hospitals right off the bat (Richard Branson's notoriously shitty and litigious Virgin Healthcare is going to make out like a bandit) even as US hospitals struggle with their own disastrous workload.  This is going to be a huge payday for the usual parasites.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JOE SOAP 22 March, 2020, 03:15:43 PM
I'll bet you actual money that what we'll see instead is capitalisation on this disaster to replace the NHS with a private model by hook or by crook.

QFT (in advance)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 22 March, 2020, 03:59:00 PM
I'll bet you actual money that what we'll see instead is capitalisation on this disaster to replace the NHS with a private model by hook or by crook.

QFT (in advance?

I don't think it'd even be worth asking Paddy Power for the odds on that one.

Watched about 40 cyclists crowded around outdoor cafe tables and benches in a village today as we wished my MiL a happy Mother's Day across her garden wall, from the safe distance of the kerb. Then watched her 95 year neighbour slowly navigate a way through the press of  lycra.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 22 March, 2020, 04:22:26 PM
I'll bet you actual money

Actual money is no good any more. Got any toilet paper?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Leigh S 22 March, 2020, 04:25:47 PM
And thats all before the collateral deaths from people ill with other serious conditions not able to access support...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 22 March, 2020, 06:34:29 PM
Apologies if this has been posted before, but here's a link to the Johns Hopkins Coronavirus map which is updated every second and is tracking both infection rates and fatalities globally, so you can be terrified in real time via a fun interactive map (https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html).
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Old Tankie 22 March, 2020, 08:08:09 PM
We live in an extra care housing scheme, half of us are doing our best not to die and are completely self-isolating, while the other half haven’t got a clue what’s going on! Groups of family members turning up to give their mothers bunches of flowers! Strange times.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IAMTHESYSTEM 23 March, 2020, 11:44:36 AM
That sounds rough Tankie, keep the faith and all that. Less crowded in the morning at the Supermarket, not so long a queue, but I feel that's because the initial shock is fading and having stocked up enough, people feel safer. I'm afraid my Bosses E-Mailed to say two of my morning jobs are on hold for the moment. The country's and the world is going through a lean period, and I'm too small an operator to dodge that flak. Billionaire Richard Branson, however, gave two months unpaid leave to his cabin crew, while working on his tan on some Caribbean Island somewhere.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 23 March, 2020, 01:47:24 PM
I’m glad to hear people in various spots saying things are improving at supermarkets. I hope that makes it around here. 100m queues reported at a local massive Tesco earlier this morning. Although someone had success at the nearby Aldi, which was surprisingly stocked. They even managed to get some eggs. Entertainingly, our local Co-op is now keeping eggs “behind the counter”, like some kind of oddball food porn.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 23 March, 2020, 01:50:34 PM
I can’t even find the words to describe the rage in me at the Politicians who rather than act decisively, are spinning. When those plates come down, I hope you are never able to show your faces in public again, and that that is the east of your punishment.

Disgusting.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: von Boom 23 March, 2020, 02:45:32 PM
I’m glad to hear people in various spots saying things are improving at supermarkets. I hope that makes it around here. 100m queues reported at a local massive Tesco earlier this morning. Although someone had success at the nearby Aldi, which was surprisingly stocked. They even managed to get some eggs. Entertainingly, our local Co-op is now keeping eggs “behind the counter”, like some kind of oddball food porn.
Hopefully the twats that have been panic buying are stocked up and will let the rest of us have a shot at some much needed supplies.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sintec 23 March, 2020, 02:57:42 PM
Entertainingly, our local Co-op is now keeping eggs “behind the counter”, like some kind of oddball food porn.

Our local Spar used to do this with bacon, presumably because it was commonly stolen, always amused me though
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Recrewt 23 March, 2020, 03:22:28 PM
I’m glad to hear people in various spots saying things are improving at supermarkets. I hope that makes it around here. 100m queues reported at a local massive Tesco earlier this morning. Although someone had success at the nearby Aldi, which was surprisingly stocked. They even managed to get some eggs. Entertainingly, our local Co-op is now keeping eggs “behind the counter”, like some kind of oddball food porn.

I'm working from home now but before that I had to travel about 20 miles from where I live and the difference in locations is quite stark.  I live in a county town which is over supplied with supermarkets so the supply here is better.  Where I work, there are fewer shops and they have been stripped bare.

Last Friday morning near work, I have never seen the shops so busy.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Cyberleader2000 23 March, 2020, 05:10:10 PM
just found out a friends mom is in hospital and has now been confirmed as having the dam virus.
whats worses is hes been working nightshifts with another friend of mine last week and I was hanging out with said other friend all of last week so now im more worried about this couf I have.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 23 March, 2020, 05:20:17 PM

Out on our gardening rounds today in this fine weather, few people seemed concerned. In fact, whilst doing the gardens adjacent to fairly well travelled roads, more people than usual stopped for a quick natter about nothing in particular.

The only hitch was our last customer, an elderly lady who usually makes us a brew and let's us use the toilet, declared herself in lockdown (which is fair enough, of course) - so no brew and no toilet. Had to do the last hour of weeding with crossed legs and a clenched jaw. (It's just weeding, wee-ding, WEE-ding - think about deserts, think about deserts... Nnng...)

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Angry Vince 23 March, 2020, 06:10:04 PM
As a kiwi, I thought my fellow NZ'ers were smart enough people. Events of the past month have proven me wrong on a daily basis.
I'm working for an FMCG company in NZ (we make bread, fresh & UHT milk, flour, butter, spreads etc.) so for the past three weeks my team have been working all hours trying to keep the country in stock as more and more people have been panic buying*

All of this stuff is locally made and the only thing preventing it being on the supermarket shelves is the legion of apocalyptic muppets (Apocamuppets?) buying like crazy.

And of course toilet paper has been flying off the shelves.

The reason why everyone has been hoarding toilet paper became abundantly clear when our PM announced a lockdown starting tomorrow and the country collective shat it pants.

Panic buying on a national scale, but not in a way that makes sense - most supermarkets were swamped and overwhelmed. The one that I walk past on the way home from work was deserted as was the superette near home.

People are, collectively, fucking morons.

* We have since renamed panic buying as Sudden Temporary UnPlanned Increased Demand

<edited for grammar>
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 23 March, 2020, 06:19:17 PM
... now im more worried about this couf I have.

This is the irritating (possibly not the best phrase) part of this situation.  Normally we wouldn't bat an eyelid at a cough this time of year.  Now it is one more thing to stress over.

Stay frosty though ...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 23 March, 2020, 07:02:34 PM
The Tories, all the time: "Being selfish is good!"
The Tories, now: "Why is everyone being so selfish?"

* perhaps belongs on the political thread
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 23 March, 2020, 07:05:46 PM
Tories, 2019: What Corbyn proposes cannot be done, there no money for it.
Tories, now: Here's all that Corbyn wanted and even some UBI shit right on top for good measure, AND an extra trillion for landlords and the banks.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 23 March, 2020, 07:05:59 PM
The Tories, all the time: "Being selfish is good!"
The Tories, now: "Why is everyone being so selfish?"

Tories, 2016-2020: "We've all had enough of experts — don't let the liberal elite tell you what to do!"

Also Tories, 2020: "Why won't anyone listen to the experts and let the liberal elite tell them what to do?"
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: pauljholden 23 March, 2020, 07:08:59 PM
just found out a friends mom is in hospital and has now been confirmed as having the dam virus.
whats worses is hes been working nightshifts with another friend of mine last week and I was hanging out with said other friend all of last week so now im more worried about this couf I have.

Stay safe Cyber leader, it's likely if you have it you'll come through the other side unscathed, but thoughts with you buddy!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 23 March, 2020, 07:12:51 PM
Tories 2010 - 2019:  NHS workers are underworked, overpaid wasters ...
Tories 2020: NHS workers are heroes, the lifeblood of the nation and we all need to get behind them ...

[Actually, is it worth shifting this to a new thread?  Day of Chaos 2 Fallout:  Tory Hypocrisy]
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Enigmatic Dr X 23 March, 2020, 07:21:08 PM
When do we see police on the street, authorised to summarily dispense justice?

I reckon in about an hour...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: pauljholden 23 March, 2020, 08:02:48 PM
Well, that's it then:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-51999604

Coronavirus: Greggs to close all stores to prevent spread

I can't believe they preempted the PMs announcement of it an hour early, though.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 23 March, 2020, 08:39:53 PM
Neither the government or its ministers - including the PM - have run a single Coronavirus ad on any of their social media accounts, despite being offered millions in free advertising credit by Facebook to do so. (https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-govt-hasnt-run-ads-on-pandemic-from-official-social-media-accounts-11962386)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 23 March, 2020, 08:53:06 PM

Even though we didn't pick MERS or SARS or H1N1 or swine 'flu or Ebola or any of the other viruses you've heard of, it was just a coincidence that our exercise used Coronavirus two months before the actual outbreak  - honest... (http://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/newsroom/center-news/2020-01-24-Statement-of-Clarification-Event201.html)

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 23 March, 2020, 09:03:21 PM

Even though we didn't pick MERS or SARS or H1N1 or swine 'flu or Ebola or any of the other viruses you've heard of, it was just a coincidence that our exercise used Coronavirus two months before the actual outbreak  - honest... (http://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/newsroom/center-news/2020-01-24-Statement-of-Clarification-Event201.html)

‘Coronavirus’ is a general class of virus that includes SARS and MERS, for fuck’s sake.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 23 March, 2020, 09:07:38 PM
When do we see police on the street, authorised to summarily dispense justice?

I reckon in about an hour...
You're wrong - it was an hour and ten minutes ;)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Mister Pops 23 March, 2020, 09:31:54 PM

Even though we didn't pick MERS or SARS or H1N1 or swine 'flu or Ebola or any of the other viruses you've heard of, it was just a coincidence that our exercise used Coronavirus two months before the actual outbreak  - honest... (http://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/newsroom/center-news/2020-01-24-Statement-of-Clarification-Event201.html)

‘Coronavirus’ is a general class of virus that includes SARS and MERS, for fuck’s sake.

(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/coronavirus_name_2x.png)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Recrewt 23 March, 2020, 11:53:24 PM
The Tories, all the time: "Being selfish is good!"
The Tories, now: "Why is everyone being so selfish?"

* perhaps belongs on the political thread

It does make you wonder if Boris is going through some sort of existential crisis at the moment.

It's all good and well telling everyone that you're a libertarian and that no one should have a 'nanny state' telling them what to do until you suddenly realise that your cavalier attitude will lead to the deaths of everyone's gran and grandad.

Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to run the nhs and social care into the ground and perhaps some of those 'non-jobs' that we were told needed shedding like say epidemiologists, might actually have been useful. 

Interesting that one of the suggested measures is to have local authorities deliver food to vulnerable people's homes.  Makes you wonder why we never had this in the past.  Oh we did, but then the budgets all got slashed so we could spend billions on Brexit!   
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 24 March, 2020, 06:51:23 AM

Even though we didn't pick MERS or SARS or H1N1 or swine 'flu or Ebola or any of the other viruses you've heard of, it was just a coincidence that our exercise used Coronavirus two months before the actual outbreak  - honest... (http://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/newsroom/center-news/2020-01-24-Statement-of-Clarification-Event201.html)

‘Coronavirus’ is a general class of virus that includes SARS and MERS, for fuck’s sake.

Which is why they always use the word 'Coronavirus' instead of MERS or SARS in the news, for fuck's sake.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 24 March, 2020, 07:19:24 AM
Which is why they always use the word 'Coronavirus' instead of MERS or SARS in the news, for fuck's sake.

You literally just made a post that implied that they were different things. You actually said: "Even though we didn't pick MERS or SARS or H1N1 or swine 'flu or Ebola or any of the other viruses you've heard of, it was just a coincidence that our exercise used Coronavirus".

Your own link makes it very clear that they were modelling a coronavirus, which, by definition, could have included a new strain of SARS or MERS, not the specific COVID-19 strain. You're reading a conspiracy into lazy journalistic shorthand and you could have debunked your own 'story' if you'd taken thirty seconds to double check the definition of 'coronavirus'.

Just. Fucking. Stop.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 24 March, 2020, 07:26:15 AM
Well, that's it then:

Coronavirus: Greggs to close all stores to prevent spread


What????? NOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's the end of British civilisation!   :crazy:
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 24 March, 2020, 10:15:40 AM
Which is why they always use the word 'Coronavirus' instead of MERS or SARS in the news, for fuck's sake.

You literally just made a post that implied that they were different things. You actually said: "Even though we didn't pick MERS or SARS or H1N1 or swine 'flu or Ebola or any of the other viruses you've heard of, it was just a coincidence that our exercise used Coronavirus".

Your own link makes it very clear that they were modelling a coronavirus, which, by definition, could have included a new strain of SARS or MERS, not the specific COVID-19 strain. You're reading a conspiracy into lazy journalistic shorthand and you could have debunked your own 'story' if you'd taken thirty seconds to double check the definition of 'coronavirus'.

Just. Fucking. Stop.

Which is why I used the word 'coincidence,' which is exactly what it might be.  Also, I wouldn't call this a conspiracy per-se. It might just be people suspecting a coronavirus event had already started or was about to start trying to get ahead of the curve, or it might be just some random study coincidentally hitting on the global buzzword of the day.

In any case, the information's there for you to do with as you will. I'm glad you seem to know for certain exactly what Event 201 was about, Jim, because I don't.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Molch-R 24 March, 2020, 11:27:07 AM
I'm going to step in at this point and provide a little guidance on this thread.

Anyone posting misinformation, conspiracy theories, or scare-stories from dodgy sources will have their posts removed and bans may be handed out for repeat offenders. If you don't see where the line is drawn by my previous sentence, don't post.

A lot of people are scared and under extraordinary stress, this is not the time to spread misinformation that will stoke panic or fear. Please practice a little empathy and think about the safety and well-being of other human beings.


Emboldened for emphasis — IP
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 24 March, 2020, 12:14:26 PM

Please define misinformation and conspiracy theories so we're all on the same page. Also, how does one define a dodgy site?

Thanks in advance.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Molch-R 24 March, 2020, 12:35:03 PM
"If you don't see where the line is drawn by my previous sentence, don't post."
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 24 March, 2020, 12:46:09 PM

Your site, your rules.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 24 March, 2020, 02:36:36 PM
In this time of almost constant stress you can mitigate feelings of helplessness by setting yourself achievable goals. Also, it may be wise to limit your time spent on news stories (or other information - perhaps including this thread) related to the outbreak.

“Notice that the stiffest tree is most easily cracked, while the bamboo or willow survives by bending with the wind.” - Bruce Lee
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 24 March, 2020, 02:46:01 PM
I’ve been employed by the wife to paint the house. Badly.

Once that’s done, I’m getting the garden tidied and ready for summer and we are hopefully going to get around to planting lots of veg, in hopes it grows and we can get a foothold before Lord Humungous makes his calls.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 24 March, 2020, 02:56:11 PM

I'm actually too busy digging trenches for drainage and power/water (and contemplating that this activity, rather than The Virus, is more likely to see me off) to spend as much time as I'd like researching the current situation.

Afraid, though? Nah, not me. Wary, perhaps, or concerned, but not afraid. That said, I'm not insensitive to the fact that many people are afraid and it's not my intention to stoke that fear. It is my belief that free and frank discussion is a good antidote to fear, but that's just my position.

I apologise if I've scared anyone.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 24 March, 2020, 03:43:07 PM
Also, it may be wise to limit your time spent on news stories (or other information - perhaps including this thread) related to the outbreak.

I endorse this message.  After some months of very little sleep broken by the tiny glow of phone screens at 3am, the good woman and I have set designated times and strictly limited durations for news/social media doomsurfing, and ceded each other powers of enforcement. This has helped our evenings, mornings and stress levels immensely.  The judgmental cry of "you'd better be looking at tits on that thing" is an unexpected bonus.

Stress will be further reduced when they shut my bloody site, which please almighty grud will be tomorrow, because being responsible for the infection-control of a team of 12 people 8 hours a day on a busy building site is WAY above anything I can bill for.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Mister Pops 24 March, 2020, 08:01:21 PM
Finally working from home. It's astounding how technologically illiterate people a mere half decade older than me are. If anything, this is proof that commuting into an office for a job that can be done online is silly
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 25 March, 2020, 05:34:33 PM
Phew, i can go home, my clients finally pulled the plug. And in the process earned my respect by paying everyone in full up to the end of their current contract - unexpected and unprecedented in my 30+ years experience.

I'm self-employed, and have a mountain of off-site work to do, so it doesn't apply to me, but one direct consequence is that several colleagues have volunteered to complete various outstanding off-site tasks,despite being paid in full anyway. That's yer virtuous circle right there.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 25 March, 2020, 05:54:45 PM
That’s great news, TB. Put your feet up, if only for a little while, and enjoy your libation of choice.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 25 March, 2020, 05:55:59 PM
Waaaay ahead of you, Jim!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Hawkmumbler 25 March, 2020, 06:40:33 PM
Well done Tordels, good to see some decency left in the world. Mortified to see two of my former employers among the scum jumping through hoops to keep their stores open. Makes me weep.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 25 March, 2020, 06:46:41 PM
Glad to hear that, Tordelback. Personally, during these times, I've found that a glass of whiskey, taken in the late evening, has quite a calming effect upon me.

I foresee a separate thread now arising, along the lines of: "This Week, I have mostly been drinking..."

 
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Hawkmumbler 25 March, 2020, 06:49:36 PM
I foresee a separate thread now arising, along the lines of: "This Week, I have mostly been drinking..."

I'll start, Jose Cuervo Especial Reposado.

Neat.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Mister Pops 25 March, 2020, 08:04:28 PM
I foresee a separate thread now arising, along the lines of: "This Week, I have mostly been drinking..."

I'll start, Jose Cuervo Especial Reposado.

Neat.

Raspberry mead I made for my sister's (now cancelled) wedding.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 25 March, 2020, 08:20:02 PM

Coffee.

Lots of coffee.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 26 March, 2020, 08:22:08 AM
I had several Peroni and a whole bottle of Pinot Grigio last night - won't be repeating that any time soon.  :sick:

I think I'll stick to the occasional whisky from this point on, as I'm already piling on pounds from the lack of exercise as it is. I'm just not sure four bottles is enough though. And one of those is a really cheap nasty one someone gave me for Xmas.  Desperate times folks!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 26 March, 2020, 08:25:16 AM
If you're adhering strictly to Handwashing Etiquette, this is most likely your current Physical state:

 https://www.facebook.com/9gag/posts/10160300224386840

and this, your current Mental state:

https://www.facebook.com/LivingDublinAltogether/videos/314512866193677/

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Bolt-01 26 March, 2020, 09:47:14 AM
Tords - glad to hear your news and very glad to hear of the 'paying it forward' as well.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Third Estate Ned 26 March, 2020, 09:59:24 AM
I never post on here any more, I merely lurk, but wanted to pop in to say that handwashing video gave me a much, much, much needed laugh, so thanks. Maybe I laughed harder than was strictly necessary but a laugh nevertheless.

I've been under lockdown in Italy for nearly a month now, 5 of us in a small flat - got to keep the little ones distracted or it all unravels. There was a lot of contradictory official information at first regarding going outside. We were allowed out for short, solitary walks in the vicinty of our homes for exercise but this permission was abused and misinterpreted. When the first cases emerged in the village we were ordered to stay indoors unless for necessities, with heavy fines for ignoring this. When I do my weekly shop I have to carry with me a declaration saying that's what I'm doing.

I'm working online and actually grateful for the distraction. My wife is the core of morale keeping us all together. I marvel at her infinite imagination and resourcefulness. The police patrol every day with the loudspeaker ordering us to stay at home so we have to pretend to our 3-year-old it's publicity for the circus (that's how they usually publicise it). Like others here, I've reduced news intake because it was sending me into deep and constant anxiety. My wife gave me the greatest advice, which was the best thing you can do right now is make the situation as good as you can for the kids and that isn't possible in the state you're in. At first it seemed irresponsible to bury my head in the sand re the situation but she's right about keeping the kids happy. Weird how you get into a routine as if all that is going on was the norm.

Luckily, the bog roll issue won't hit us so hard as every home has a bidet.

I hope everyone here is able to find their way out of the mental fog that this isolation brings.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Mardroid 26 March, 2020, 05:57:39 PM
Just found out our work laptops are ready for pick-up tomorrow so we can work from home! We can take a monitor and a mouse too.

Security is to be informed in case we appear to be looting.  :lol:
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: von Boom 26 March, 2020, 06:41:58 PM
Just found out our work laptops are ready for pick-up tomorrow so we can work from home! We can take a monitor and a mouse too.

Security is to be informed in case we appear to be looting.  :lol:
Surely there can be no confusion.  :)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FJUlzOb1v4tw%2Fhqdefault.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 26 March, 2020, 06:43:21 PM
Just found out our work laptops are ready for pick-up tomorrow so we can work from home! We can take a monitor and a mouse too.

Security is to be informed in case we appear to be looting.  :lol:
Lucky you - we had to provide our own mouses / mice!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 26 March, 2020, 06:44:17 PM
Just found out our work laptops are ready for pick-up tomorrow so we can work from home! We can take a monitor and a mouse too.

Security is to be informed in case we appear to be looting.  :lol:
Lucky you - we had to provide our own mouses / mice!

(and forget about a monitor - stuck on titchy screen).
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 26 March, 2020, 07:14:40 PM
(https://wpcdn.us-east-1.vip.tn-cloud.net/www.pittsburghmagazine.com/content/uploads/2020/03/IMG_2014-1.jpg)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 26 March, 2020, 07:33:35 PM
Anyone working from home, please take care to:

- Not overdo hours. Make a schedule that’s close to your standard one
- Take regular breaks
- Where possible, get a decent chair — sit at a dining chair and your back and bum will hate you
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Eamonn Clarke 26 March, 2020, 08:21:53 PM
I’ve started this post several times with a few different reports from the NHS but can’t really find the words.

Just this: whatever social distancing and personal hygiene regime you’re currently practicing please double it. Really. Step it up again.

That’s all. I’ll see you on the other side.
Eamonn
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JOE SOAP 26 March, 2020, 10:49:39 PM
I’ve started this post several times with a few different reports from the NHS but can’t really find the words.

Just this: whatever social distancing and personal hygiene regime you’re currently practicing please double it. Really. Step it up again.

That’s all. I’ll see you on the other side.
Eamonn

Thanks, Eamonn.

It can't be stated enough: We only get one chance.

Stay safe.



: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Recrewt 27 March, 2020, 12:36:09 AM
I've been under lockdown in Italy for nearly a month now, 5 of us in a small flat - got to keep the little ones distracted or it all unravels. There was a lot of contradictory official information at first regarding going outside. We were allowed out for short, solitary walks in the vicinty of our homes for exercise but this permission was abused and misinterpreted. When the first cases emerged in the village we were ordered to stay indoors unless for necessities, with heavy fines for ignoring this. When I do my weekly shop I have to carry with me a declaration saying that's what I'm doing.

I'm working online and actually grateful for the distraction. My wife is the core of morale keeping us all together. I marvel at her infinite imagination and resourcefulness. The police patrol every day with the loudspeaker ordering us to stay at home so we have to pretend to our 3-year-old it's publicity for the circus (that's how they usually publicise it). Like others here, I've reduced news intake because it was sending me into deep and constant anxiety. My wife gave me the greatest advice, which was the best thing you can do right now is make the situation as good as you can for the kids and that isn't possible in the state you're in. At first it seemed irresponsible to bury my head in the sand re the situation but she's right about keeping the kids happy. Weird how you get into a routine as if all that is going on was the norm.

Wow, I don't envy your situation Ned but that's the way that things are going in the UK.

It's so easy for the enormity of this situation to just overwhelm us.  But I disagree - there is nothing 'burying your head in the sand' about looking after yourself and your family.  That's what many of us have to focus on now.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Steve Green 27 March, 2020, 09:17:44 AM
I’ve started this post several times with a few different reports from the NHS but can’t really find the words.

Just this: whatever social distancing and personal hygiene regime you’re currently practicing please double it. Really. Step it up again.

That’s all. I’ll see you on the other side.
Eamonn

Definitely.

Take care Eamonn, looking forward to buying you many pints once this is over.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 27 March, 2020, 09:30:20 AM
I’ve started this post several times with a few different reports from the NHS but can’t really find the words.

Just this: whatever social distancing and personal hygiene regime you’re currently practicing please double it. Really. Step it up again.

That’s all. I’ll see you on the other side.
Eamonn

Take care, Eamonn.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 27 March, 2020, 11:18:50 AM
Just this: whatever social distancing and personal hygiene regime you’re currently practicing please double it. Really. Step it up again.

I've offered to put up a tent in the back garden for my wife to live in, but she seemed oddly resistant to the idea.

No pleasing some people!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 27 March, 2020, 12:25:50 PM
Nice one, Jim. :lol:

For those trying to get the right message through to young people, I would recommend the link below.

https://www.facebook.com/9gag/photos/a.109041001839/10160335186801840/?type=3&theater

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 27 March, 2020, 01:35:44 PM
Trying to be as positive, non grouchy during this testing time.

Wish I could draw my attention from the news cycle. The footage from Spain and Italy could not fail to move you.

Not a religious man by any measurement, but I’m praying to whatever looks over us that things get better for us all as quickly as possible, and that those people on the frontlines of this terrible tragedy unfolding before us, are going to be supported and shown the proper love and  appreciation when we get to the other side of this. God help them.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 27 March, 2020, 02:14:06 PM
Well, if anyone is still feeling a bit glum in these troubling times, I would heartily recommend seeking out footage of Dominic Cummings' departure from Downing Street today as Johnson tests positive for Covid-19.  Hopefully the defining image of his illustrious career.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 27 March, 2020, 02:23:42 PM
Ned and particularly Eamonn, my thoughts are with ye.

This is a huge test of how our collective imaginations work: as with climate change I like to think that I have a realist's view of the immediate future, that I've informed myself and run the numbers as best I can, but it's still too much for me to really grasp. When our unflappable CMO Tony Holohan points out where we are on that terrifying graph (the beginning of the beginning), I cock a snook at the still-in-denialists and "why weren't we prepared" crowd that explode daily across Irish social media, but I'm actually not one whit better.  One moment I'm laughing with the kids over some crude bit of wordplay while trying to decide whether to watch a DS9 Season 3 episode or Antman & the Wasp, the next I shake with the realisation that we're all standing on a rapidly-draining beach waiting for the tsunami to rush in, and then it's back to Quark's latest attempt to offload those self-sealing stembolts.

Wouldn't be surprised if Boris had faked a positive result or deliberately infected himself just to find a way out of being the incompetent in the driving seat.  I might do the same.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IAMTHESYSTEM 27 March, 2020, 02:56:15 PM
There are Security guards or Shop workers who are acting as such at all the smaller grocery stores now. You have to queue to get in standing two meters apart. Only two people at once are allowed into one of the local food shops. It is almost surreal, and it reminded me of WW2 films with people queuing outside the Butchers to receive their rations. What a strange future has leapt upon us all, upending the consumerist society onto its head. The peculiar habit of avoiding people, stepping out onto the road, so as not to share the pavement with whoever you're passing. The empty highways, the sound of birds rather than car wheels; all just getting familiar, yet unsettling somehow.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Hawkmumbler 27 March, 2020, 04:00:56 PM
Went to help my 75 year old grandfather (in the early stages of Parkinsons) do a swift weekly shop at Sainsburys this morning, in the pensioner slot. My grandfather is increasingly struggling to cope with heavier tasks, and the staff at our local branch have been very inviting of family and care giver support during the one hour shopping segment. Still had to queue which is an odd feeling but it only took 5 mins, and major props to the tiny lass working the main entrance trafficking folks in and out, and was not at all standing for any abuse. Two lads wanted to get in "just for fags love swear on me babes life" and promptly kicked off seeing me next in line. Don't think i've ever seen a pair of burly security guards so done with someones shit deliver such a swift kicking off the premises, and it was, quiet literally, a kicking. You love to see it.

I like to think people are by and large quiet amicable but I do wonder sometimes.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 27 March, 2020, 05:43:09 PM
Wouldn't be surprised if Boris had faked a positive result or deliberately infected himself just to find a way out of being the incompetent in the driving seat.  I might do the same.

It was said in jest but now we really do have to step back and appreciate the achievement of electing the three worst Prime Ministers in British history in a row: each one somehow topping the one before in terms of incompetence, and the first guy in the chain fucked a pig.
This is a sign from God, and if we elect another Tory PM, the Earth is legit going to get hit by an asteroid.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: moly 27 March, 2020, 07:04:13 PM
Wondered how long it would take someone to have to bring politics into this
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: auxlen 27 March, 2020, 07:05:35 PM
GENIUS MOVE TO 'BE INFECTED'.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Hawkmumbler 27 March, 2020, 07:19:51 PM
With the news the Excel Center, NEC and Mcr Central being converted into makeshift hospitals and morgues, with an alarming emphasis on the latter, and refrigerated mobile morgues being set up State side, I keep being reminded of that painful, gut wrenching page from the tail end of Day of Chaos where the Judges isolate tens of thousands of citizens in a sports arena and just wait for them to die.

We're living in the worst possible timeline here lads.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 27 March, 2020, 07:28:02 PM
I have to admit to being in admiration of Trump and his minion's ability to distort reality. 
So now it turns out he is threatening broadcasters in the states over an ad that simply repeats his own words. (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/27/donald-trump-coronavirus-response-us-advertisement)

Why?  Because they claim that he said a few things between the word "Coronavirus" and the phrase "this is their new hoax."  I'm trying to wrap my head around how they getting round the fact that they haven't included every single word he said in all those speeches in the ad.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 27 March, 2020, 08:27:38 PM
Wondered how long it would take someone to have to bring politics into this

It's right there in Page 1, Post 1 (cos politics is life, man):

Who'd have thought hardline communist dictatorships were ahead of the game after all?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 27 March, 2020, 08:42:01 PM
Wondered how long it would take someone to have to bring politics into this

I was going to reply to this by quoting all the posts in this thread talking about the government's culpability by either delaying their response or a decade of underfunding the NHS, but that would take a while as there is simply no separating this crisis from how we've been failed by neoliberal psychopaths in order to preserve the precious economy that they worship like a god to the point they now want to commit mass human sacrifice to it.
There's only one side of the political spectrum calling for this virus to be allowed to run rampant in the populace and kill a conservative estimate of about half a million people as well as incapacitating 60% of the surviving population for a minimum of 6 weeks so they can't even go back to their jobs anyway - a solution that literally will not work and will kill hundreds of thousands of people and they want to do it anyway because the last five years of politics have taught them that never having to play defence is the same thing as always being right.

Anyway, TLDR: good luck keeping this one apolitical.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 28 March, 2020, 08:39:53 AM
On the subject of keeping politics out of this...

Ok, so our government said some bullshit about not getting the email about joint procurement of PPE and other medical equipment with the EU.

We know that’s just utter bollocks, but now we have proof. Check out this EC briefing, where EU members say U.K. representatives were present in all discussions.

So not only did they ‘get the email’, but the government made a decision not to  engage, most likely for ideological reasons (an aide has commented “we’re not a member of the EU.”)

Yet another life threatening decision to remember when this crisis has passed.

https://audiovisual.ec.europa.eu/embed/index.html?ref=I-187505&lg=en
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 28 March, 2020, 08:52:21 AM
I read the first post of this thread as being "let's not fill the political thread up with COVID-19 posts, so spin it off" - i.e. the full name of this thread might as well be "The Political Thread 2: Day of Chaos 2: a COVID-19 Thread".
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 28 March, 2020, 08:55:41 AM
I see your point. Maybe a Mod could split the thread, so we can keep a record of the disastrous decisions the U.K. government is making during this crisis elsewhere?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 28 March, 2020, 08:59:32 AM
i.e. the full name of this thread might as well be "The Political Thread 2: Day of Chaos 2: a COVID-19 Thread".

Surely it's:

2000ad_online_forum/general_chat/off_topic/political_thread_2/day_of_chaos_2/covid-19_thread

 :-*
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 28 March, 2020, 11:28:17 AM
This is 30 mins walk from my front door. A dose of reality I could really do without.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/news-comment/coronavirus-nhs-field-hospital-principality-stadium-beds-welsh-rugby-a9431236.html
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 28 March, 2020, 11:54:50 AM
When NHS procurement are sourcing disposable scrubs from a fetish supplier, you have to ask yourself what in the hell this Government is doing, how they could have made such a hash of it when they saw what was coming. It is mind boggling.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MedFet_UK/status/1243590308878848002
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Richard 28 March, 2020, 01:11:56 PM
You simply can't separate this issue from politics, it's inherently political I'm afraid. The fact that it also involves death and tragedy on a monumental scale doesn't change that, because political decisions often cause deaths. Now of course it would be wrong for anyone to try to obtain political advantage from it, but commenting on what our government is doing about it and how we got here -- which is partly the result of political decisions -- is certainly not the same thing.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 28 March, 2020, 01:43:31 PM
I don’t think we’ll be splitting the thread. This thread will focus on C19, and that can include some political commentary. This leaves the other thread for everything outside of this subject. Our main concern here from an admin standpoint was outlined by Molch-R earlier in the thread.

If the thread does become too derailed by politics, we can always draw a line.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Cyberleader2000 28 March, 2020, 03:13:33 PM
Here to lighten the mood
https://youtu.be/e0-2XxgHIXk (https://youtu.be/e0-2XxgHIXk)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Pete Wells 28 March, 2020, 05:05:28 PM
Woah, just read this thread from the start and it was fascinating to see it go through the gamete of emotions and approaches from lighthearted and/or sceptical, to realisation, to alarm, frustration, fear and anger, acceptance and everything in between. A journey I think we have all been on.

It’s very hard not to be political with this, in my eyes Johnson has been shambolic with fundamental mistakes made early on, despite the very real evidence from elsewhere. I can’t even bring myself to write about Dominic Cummings, I swear that man is a psychopath. I’ve seen a few social media posts from people who I thought were intelligent praising Johnson’s performance and I just can’t believe it!

My biggest irk as been the lack of clarity for schools. Those who know me will know I am a very passionate special needs teacher. The government’s handling of schools (particularly special schools) has been nothing short of atrocious. Saying all schools will be open for children with EHCP plans is beyond insane. For those who don’t know, the H in EHCP stands for ‘Health’, so I’ve personally seen confused parents (many of whom have learning difficulties themselves) sending children who are very poorly, highly at risk with Health needs, to school because the government is telling them too. It took a LONG time for Johnson and Williamson to be more explicit that, where possible, children should stay at home. Several parents in my setting are STILL ignoring this advice however.

At the end of this crisis, I wonder just how much blood jolly, cuddly, bumbling Bojo with have on his fat, incompetent hands?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Robin Low 28 March, 2020, 06:16:04 PM

the gamete of emotions

This made me smile.

Regards,
Robin
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Steve Green 28 March, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
Pete's autocorrect strikes again.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: auxlen 28 March, 2020, 06:32:33 PM
It's all politics/conspiracy theories until someone you know dies...and in my case, it's a colleague 50 (no underlying health conditions), and an uncle 45 (high blood pressure).
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: von Boom 28 March, 2020, 06:36:25 PM
Very sorry to hear that auxlen. Condolences.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 28 March, 2020, 06:48:58 PM
It's all politics/conspiracy theories until someone you know dies...and in my case, it's a colleague 50 (no underlying health conditions), and an uncle 45 (high blood pressure).

Condolences, Auxlen.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Steve Green 28 March, 2020, 06:54:36 PM
My condolences, Auxlen.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 28 March, 2020, 07:04:37 PM
Very sorry to hear of your losses, Auxlen. My sincere condolences to you.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 28 March, 2020, 11:14:50 PM
It's all politics/conspiracy theories until someone you know dies...and in my case, it's a colleague 50 (no underlying health conditions), and an uncle 45 (high blood pressure).

I’m so sorry to hear that.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 28 March, 2020, 11:50:20 PM
This is 30 mins walk from my front door. A dose of reality I could really do without.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/news-comment/coronavirus-nhs-field-hospital-principality-stadium-beds-welsh-rugby-a9431236.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/news-comment/coronavirus-nhs-field-hospital-principality-stadium-beds-welsh-rugby-a9431236.html)

I know the feeling.  When I left the office the other day, for the last time before starting home working, the following had been put up and the generators were about to cool it down for use as a temporary mortuary to double the capacity of Westminster Coroner's Court.
(https://i.imgur.com/UrV7AEL.jpg)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 28 March, 2020, 11:50:54 PM
It's all politics/conspiracy theories until someone you know dies...and in my case, it's a colleague 50 (no underlying health conditions), and an uncle 45 (high blood pressure).

My condolences.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 29 March, 2020, 12:02:14 PM
I’m starting to see many CORVID19 death announcements on my Twitter feed too. They’re not all elderly folk either. The youngest I have seen so far was 35 year old. They are a mixture of folk from the U.K. and US.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IAMTHESYSTEM 29 March, 2020, 12:16:27 PM
How's you're queue time at the shops? Thirty-five minutes this morning to get into the big local Supermarket. Both the floors inside the building and outside have marked lines six-feet in width. When you're inside, you can move about okay, but it is weird for me buying a whole weeks worth of food at one go. The aisles seem well-stocked, and over the tannoy, the woman announced they had a 'Store Marshall' doing the rounds,  which felt very Judge Dredd and Mega-City One. As Zarjazzer worryingly pointed out to me when I'd hefted the five bags of shopping home; 'January, Fire, February, Flood. March we have pestilence.' so as you can imagine we're somewhat concerned about what April has in store!     
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 29 March, 2020, 12:37:27 PM
I’ve not been - my partner has been to a Tesco once for fresh fruit and veg (our Brexit stockpile has all else covered), and said she wants to avoid going again if she can possibly help it.

What you describe above was very similar to her experience, but also she saw big signs on the doors saying ‘Anyone abusing our staff will not be served and will be removed from the store immediately’. So the mood there was tense, as clearly shit had already gone down in a noteable way.


She’s actually a ‘key worker’ in all of this. As an Ops for a mental health charity in Wales she’s been working incredibly hard procuring beds for the NHS. These have come from wards run by the charity normally taken by mental health patients, from ligature-free buildings and suchlike. She’s been on Zoom calls with NHS managers day and night this last week or more. It’s been tough for her.

She’s also prepping for call-up to support the NHS at the frontline. I’m so incredibly proud of her, but I’m so scared for her also.

I’m ‘high risk’ due to my asthma, so when she goes I won’t see her until it’s over.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 29 March, 2020, 12:48:06 PM
Sorry for the loss of your uncle and your colleague, Auxlen.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 29 March, 2020, 01:38:26 PM
I’ve not been - my partner has been to a Tesco once for fresh fruit and veg (our Brexit stockpile has all else covered), and said she wants to avoid going again if she can possibly help it.

What you describe above was very similar to her experience, but also she saw big signs on the doors saying ‘Anyone abusing our staff will not be served and will be removed from the store immediately’. So the mood there was tense, as clearly shit had already gone down in a noteable way.


She’s actually a ‘key worker’ in all of this. As an Ops for a mental health charity in Wales she’s been working incredibly hard procuring beds for the NHS. These have come from wards run by the charity normally taken by mental health patients, from ligature-free buildings and suchlike. She’s been on Zoom calls with NHS managers day and night this last week or more. It’s been tough for her.

She’s also prepping for call-up to support the NHS at the frontline. I’m so incredibly proud of her, but I’m so scared for her also.

I’m ‘high risk’ due to my asthma, so when she goes I won’t see her until it’s over.

All the best to you and your partner, Shaolin. Herself and all those working at the frontline of this crisis are absolute heroes in my book. Take good care of yerselves!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IAMTHESYSTEM 29 March, 2020, 01:46:59 PM
I’ve not been - my partner has been to a Tesco once for fresh fruit and veg (our Brexit stockpile has all else covered), and said she wants to avoid going again if she can possibly help it.

What you describe above was very similar to her experience, but also she saw big signs on the doors saying ‘Anyone abusing our staff will not be served and will be removed from the store immediately’. So the mood there was tense, as clearly shit had already gone down in a noteable way.


She’s actually a ‘key worker’ in all of this. As an Ops for a mental health charity in Wales she’s been working incredibly hard procuring beds for the NHS. These have come from wards run by the charity normally taken by mental health patients, from ligature-free buildings and suchlike. She’s been on Zoom calls with NHS managers day and night this last week or more. It’s been tough for her.

She’s also prepping for call-up to support the NHS at the frontline. I’m so incredibly proud of her, but I’m so scared for her also.

I’m ‘high risk’ due to my asthma, so when she goes I won’t see her until it’s over.

All the best to you and your partner, Shaolin. Herself and all those working at the frontline of this crisis are absolute heroes in my book. Take good care of yerselves!

You said it right paddykafka. Keep safe Shaolin_ and a big thanks to all frontline Health and Emergency Service workers.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Steve Green 29 March, 2020, 04:00:29 PM
Only the small(ish) local co-op, which has been fine, although empties out of the fresh stuff pretty quickly.

Did sainsburys a couple of weeks back, when people were starting to panic buy, but didn't see any trouble - was just busy.

Whenever I've looked online it's been no chance of delivery...

All the best to you and the family Monkey.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 30 March, 2020, 11:14:46 AM
Very best of good fortune to you guys, Shaolin Monkey.

Here's a very calm, informative (if slightly smug) interview (https://youtu.be/gAk7aX5hksU) from South Korea, which sets out facts from expert experience. Long, but you'll feel better informed, if possibly a bit angrier, by the end.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 30 March, 2020, 12:29:56 PM
I think it is fair to say, that the following cautionary tale firmly belongs in the "Don't Try This At Home" category. But at least his heart was in the right place. (Even if the magnets were not).

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/man-gets-magnets-stuck-up-nose-while-trying-to-invent-device-that-stops-people-touching-their-faces-1.4215674
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Bolt-01 30 March, 2020, 02:04:22 PM
as my youngest pointed out whilst looking out of the window over the weekend - "It's like Thanos won in the real world..."
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 31 March, 2020, 10:29:16 PM
Twitter feed continuing to fill with death announcements. Latest is also the youngest - Ismail, wee 13 year old lad, London, no underlying conditions.

Social media might have to be turned off for a while.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 31 March, 2020, 10:45:36 PM
Terrible news, Shaolin.

I've had to limit my exposure to the news cycle: it's unremitting.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 01 April, 2020, 10:03:17 AM
Couldn't bring myself to play any April Fools on the kids this morning, everything is so upside-down already that it didn't seem right. Instead reflected on past glories, and all the places we were when they were perpetrated that weren't inside these four walls.

Then looked at online media, and it turns out many of the usual suspects have had exactly the same idea.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 01 April, 2020, 11:05:37 AM
Someone noted on Twitter to me that they very nearly did a “school’s back” April Fool on their kid, but decided not to. I can only imagine doing that on mini-IP. She’d be in bits on finding out it wasn’t the case. She loves school and misses her friends. I can only hope this period doesn’t mess her up. (We’re fortunate in that some of her friends’ parents have similar concerns, and so have started doing virtual playdates via Skype. So that’s at least something. I’m very grateful for being in that position regarding technology.)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 01 April, 2020, 11:18:38 AM
Yep, Skype playdates for my 10yr old have been a lifesaver, although it causes one to update the WFH dresscode to include 'trousers compulsory' as she wanders about the bunker giving virtual tours of the squalor.

The 13yr old gets his socialisation in through online murder games with his friends, as usual, but has also reverted to deeply complex multiplayer Minecrafting of the redstone-heavy varieťy, so that's good. Never have I seen a computer game with such longevity: he's played it on and off for at least 5 years now.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 01 April, 2020, 01:41:59 PM
So, for the third night in the last four days, I have been woken from my sleep by the drunken antics of the violent, psychotic, alcoholic girlfriend of the guy in the flat above me (and of whom I previously wrote about in another thread).

While most of the rest of society have rightly been adhering to the principals of Lockdown, he has had her and some of her equally scummy, feral, teenage offspring over to visit him, and join in their drunken lets-party-like-it's-the-end-of-the-world sessions.

I was awoken at 3AM on Sunday morning by the main muppet herself, physically beating the smack-head girlfriend of one of the other guys in the flat above, down the stairs and out the door of the house over some row or other.

The following night, at 12.30 AM, I was again disturbed by the same cretin. This time around, it was her own teenage daughter she was man-handling out the door. And I know this because I could hear her drunken, shit-head offspring screaming "I'm sorry, Ma! I'm sorry, Ma!" as she was being given the old heave-ho out the door.

And then at 2AM this morning, I was once again woken up by the same lunatic, shouting and roaring her head off in the flat upstairs for almost an hour-and-a-half.

There are simply no words to describe the utter contempt that I feel for these muppets. These sorry excuses for humanity would not even know how to spell the words "Social Distancing" and "Self Isolating", much less understand the concepts. The only thing that they care about is getting pissed out of their minds and, to use their own common-as-muck, gutter-trash parlance, "Havin' da buzz" and "Havin' da craic".

I am in no doubt that the last time that they saw a bar of soap was on a TV commercial. And, given their obvious carelessness, it is a fair bet to say that they are carrying the Covid19 virus, if not actively transmitting it.

By coming around to this house and leaving their vile trails on doors and walls, they are putting the lives of myself and everyone else here at serious risk of infection and death.

At this point in time, I honestly could not care less if the lot of them wind up being carted out in body-bags. Because for their stupidity, their ignorance, and above all, their utterly selfish disregard for anything or anyone but themselves, it is no more than what they deserve.

I hate them all.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 01 April, 2020, 02:15:49 PM
Jovus, Paddy that's bloody awful. And I've been giving out about neighbours mowing their lawns for hours on end! 

I know no-one ever wants to be a grass, but the guards are coming the heavy on house parties this past week (I know that's not what this is), maybe a wee chat might sort the immediate issue, if not actually helping in the long term. There haven't been any rowdy sessions round our way since weekend before last, and there's almost always one loud one every week.

This horror story does remind me of one of the very few upsides of this nightmare: the house-alarm chorus that has carried on almost unbroken for the 15 years I've lived here has finally ceased.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 01 April, 2020, 05:13:02 PM
Hi Tordels, you're right on the being a "grass" in theory, but aside from it going against the grain, as it were, with the kind of people - and I am using that term in the loosest possible sense - that I am talking about, I would be likely to have my windows put in at the very least, if not an actual petrol bomb thrown through them.

Trying to reason with them would be equally pointless, as that assumes some level of intellectual capacity on their part to understand what I would be talking about, and which is utterly lacking in their case.

So I have simply gone down the revenge route instead.

To that end, I am currently belting out The Fall's Last Night at the Palais at a sufficiently high volume through an open window, that should more than adequately serve to stir and disturb them from their hangover slumber. I will be following that with tunes from another Angry Young Man, to wit, Peter Hamill with the K Group, and their album The Margin, 'Live.

The icing on the cake will be any one of a number of Krzystof Penderecki CD's that, to their great misfortune, I am lucky to have and are perfect for moments such as this. I'm thinking of starting with Utrenja and after that, well, who knows.

And the beauty of it all is that, thanks to the couple of bottles of whiskey that I have just purchased and have started upon, regardless of what they get up to later I will be completely oblivious to it all.

Do I care?

Do I heck as like!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 01 April, 2020, 06:04:28 PM
Ironically, they'll probably call the cops on you.

Normal grassing rules don't apply during a pandemic, but if you're still worried, just tell the cops you don't wish to leave your name.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 01 April, 2020, 06:56:27 PM
The icing on the cake will be any one of a number of Krzystof Penderecki CD's that, to their great misfortune, I am lucky to have and are perfect for moments such as this. I'm thinking of starting with Utrenja and after that, well, who knows.
Never heard of him, but (and I hope this isn't news to you) I see he died a few days ago (https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/mar/29/krzysztof-penderecki-obituary).
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 01 April, 2020, 07:05:05 PM
Ironically, they'll probably call the cops on you.

Take it from me, Professor, the very last people that these particular idiots will be calling are the police.

(Considering that every one of them has, at some stage or another, done time in various prisons, their attitude towards representatives of the Law are, to say the least, somewhat hostile).

Also, the bloke in question, is very much aware of the utter contempt that I have with regard to his partner. I was the one who stood by him and took his side on the last occasion that she physically assaulted him. But, as is sadly so common in cases of domestic abuse, he later made excuses for her behaviour and chose to take her back into his life. I made it absolutely and abundantly clear to him that I never wished to be in her company again or have anything to do with her whatsoever. And I have, and will continue to keep to that vow.

As I learned from my own bitter experiences of a couple of former partners- albeit in my case, they were of verbal and emotional abuse and controlling behaviour - there are certain people like her that are utterly incapable of change for the better.

At the end of the day, he is so terrified of being alone and accepting the fact that, between his advanced age, economic circumstances and his own personal issues, this is likely to be his lot-in-life going forward, he will forgive her many horrible personal flaws. And the worst of it all is that she herself was apparently the victim of childhood abuse. Which in my view, makes what she has done even more unforgiveable.

And I speak as someone with experience in that area myself. In my case, that abuse manifested itself in the physical fashion. If you have been through that kind of horror or anything like it - as I have - then it is surely incumbent on you to do all that you can, to avoid perpetuating that kind of repulsive behaviour upon anyone else. At least that is the way that I choose to so from a moral point of view.

In any event, he has made his bed and can lie in it. Any sympathy I might have had for him has long since evaporated.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Richard 01 April, 2020, 07:09:21 PM
I'm sorry to hear about all this, Paddykafka, and I wish I had a helpful solution to suggest.

On a completely and totally unrelated subject, does anyone know what a flock of crows is properly called?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 01 April, 2020, 07:11:42 PM
The icing on the cake will be any one of a number of Krzystof Penderecki CD's that, to their great misfortune, I am lucky to have and are perfect for moments such as this. I'm thinking of starting with Utrenja and after that, well, who knows.
Never heard of him, but (and I hope this isn't news to you) I see he died a few days ago (https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/mar/29/krzysztof-penderecki-obituary).

Ah, no. So sorry to hear of that. I will post something else at a later time in the RIP section. Thanks for letting me know, Sheridan.

PS: Just to clarify, the physical abuse that I mentioned in the previous post happened in childhood. Apologies for any confusion.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 01 April, 2020, 07:41:57 PM
... does anyone know what a flock of crows is properly called?

I thought it was a "murder of crows", no?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 01 April, 2020, 07:56:20 PM
: Tjm86
link=topic=46306.msg
1025200#msg1025200
date=1585766517
: Richard
link=topic=46306.msg
1025197#msg1025197
date=1585764561
... does anyone know what a flock of crows is properly
called?
I thought it was a "murder of crows", no?

Not if there's just caws...

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Doctor Alt 8 01 April, 2020, 08:24:00 PM

My landlord is currently trapped in India ....won't be able to return to the UK until at least 18th of April due to lock-down. Hope nothing serious happens to the property because there will be no one to fix it.


On a less serious note... THIS happened to me...

An odd thing happened to me Saturday.I went to do the large weekly shop and I was walking to take my rightful place at the end of the quee which was reaching past the Train station.


A gentleman sees me walk past pushing a blue trolley given to me by my Belgium friend and he INSISTED that I take a place in front of him in the quee (At an appropriate distance of course)


I thanked him prefusly. friend


A few moment later another gentleman three places in front of me offered HIS place in front of the quee...


I thanked That man.


A couple of minutes later a security officer comes passed on a patrol (To ensue all those in the quee are keeping their distance from each other) He insists on separating me out and letting me into the store in front of everyone else in the quee.


As I was talking to mother to tell her what was & wasn't available and to ask if she wanted substitutes the  first man who offered his place came up to me and said that he hoped that I hadn't been waiting long as I was clearly a priority (???)


I did and said nothing to warrent this favorable treatment and I think I need plastic surgery because they clearly thought that I was in my dotage....


I can only thing that because I have to bend to hold onto the trolley as the handles are about 2 inches too short for comfort, people must of mistaken my bend for a aged stoop...




Mother thought that this was hilarious and Adrian said that I should play up to this to get this treatment again...


: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Richard 01 April, 2020, 08:40:20 PM
... does anyone know what a flock of crows is properly called?

I thought it was a "murder of crows", no?

So it is. A murder. Quite right.

On a completely and totally unrelated subject, I hope Paddykafka's troubles come to an end soon.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: von Boom 02 April, 2020, 12:24:17 AM
: Tjm86
link=topic=46306.msg
1025200#msg1025200
date=1585766517
: Richard
link=topic=46306.msg
1025197#msg1025197
date=1585764561
... does anyone know what a flock of crows is properly
called?
I thought it was a "murder of crows", no?

Not if there's just caws...
You monster. ;)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 02 April, 2020, 09:12:01 AM
: Tjm86
link=topic=46306.msg
1025200#msg1025200
date=1585766517
: Richard
link=topic=46306.msg
1025197#msg1025197
date=1585764561
... does anyone know what a flock of crows is properly
called?
I thought it was a "murder of crows", no?

Not if there's just caws...
You monster. ;)

If there's only two crows then it's attempted murder.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: strontium71 02 April, 2020, 10:55:54 AM
Of course if they’re just imitating a bloke guffawing , it’s man’s laughter..
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 02 April, 2020, 11:53:14 AM
... and once again a perfectly serious thread has morphed into the "Squaxx telling jokes" thread.  Can people never stay on topic?

[I know, that's another thread again ....]
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 02 April, 2020, 12:10:10 PM
Of course if they’re just imitating a bloke guffawing , it’s man’s laughter..

If you knew how long I spent trying to come up with a manslaughter-related pun for a corvid- 19 minutes wasted.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 02 April, 2020, 12:17:47 PM

Good job you didn't - it might have gone viral.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 02 April, 2020, 12:59:58 PM
... and once again a perfectly serious thread has morphed into the "Squaxx telling jokes" thread.  Can people never stay on topic?

[I know, that's another thread again ....]

Better than the alternative, speaking of which...

DUP gotta DUP (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus/coronavirus-dup-man-blames-outbreak-on-abortion-reform-and-same-sex-marriage-introduction-in-northern-ireland-39096782.html).
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 02 April, 2020, 01:03:33 PM
This is a sign from God, and if we elect another Tory PM, the Earth is legit going to get hit by an asteroid.

WELP (https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/atlas-comet-visible-night-sky-earth-solar-system-a9440836.html)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 02 April, 2020, 01:21:13 PM
"The DUP distanced itself from the comments, telling the BBC Stephen Nolan show Ballymena councillor John Carson was expressing a personal opinion and not that of the party”

Says a lot when even the DUP are all “nope — that’s too fucking nuts, even for us”.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 02 April, 2020, 02:53:12 PM
I always like how these nutty lads compare themselves and their self-inflicted tribulations to those of Jesus, which always strikes this atheist as distinctly blasphemous: last I looked Jesus was without sin, the perfect incarnation of God's love and understanding for mankind, and the Son of God to boot, and definitely not some nasty lizard-eyed sinner from Ballymena.  And if only they were preaching the same message.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JOE SOAP 02 April, 2020, 02:59:37 PM
"The DUP distanced itself from the comments, telling the BBC Stephen Nolan show Ballymena councillor John Carson was expressing a personal opinion and not that of the party”

Says a lot when even the DUP are all “nope — that’s too fucking nuts, even for us”.

It's not an unexpected utterance from one of their rank.


: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 02 April, 2020, 03:28:24 PM

"Lift a stone and you will find me. Split a piece of wood and I am there."


Creepy crawlies, too.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: ZenArcade 02 April, 2020, 04:37:29 PM
Quote from: Tjm86
link=topic=46306.msg
1025200#msg1025200
date=1585766517
Quote from: Richard
link=topic=46306.msg
1025197#msg1025197
date=1585764561
... does anyone know what a flock of crows is properly
called?
I thought it was a "murder of crows", no?

Not if there's just caws...

Oh Shark, you card you. Z
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 02 April, 2020, 05:17:09 PM
DUP gotta DUP (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus/coronavirus-dup-man-blames-outbreak-on-abortion-reform-and-same-sex-marriage-introduction-in-northern-ireland-39096782.html).

Fascinating how his god supposedly punishes gay rights activism in Northern Ireland by creating a global pandemic. Typical overreaction there from Yahweh.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 02 April, 2020, 05:45:59 PM
DUP gotta DUP (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus/coronavirus-dup-man-blames-outbreak-on-abortion-reform-and-same-sex-marriage-introduction-in-northern-ireland-39096782.html).

Fascinating how his god supposedly punishes gay rights activism in Northern Ireland by creating a global pandemic. Typical overreaction there from Yahweh.

To be fair - overeaction is pretty consistent with what's the in the bible (particularly the Torah / Pentateuch)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 02 April, 2020, 07:03:01 PM
... and once again a perfectly serious thread has morphed into the "Squaxx telling jokes" thread.  Can people never stay on topic?

[I know, that's another thread again ....]

Better than the alternative, speaking of which...

DUP gotta DUP (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus/coronavirus-dup-man-blames-outbreak-on-abortion-reform-and-same-sex-marriage-introduction-in-northern-ireland-39096782.html).

Can we just start a "Batshit Crazy Politico's" thread?  Or would it be easier to start an "Intelligent Politicians and the things they say ... " thread instead ..... Actually, unless it gets pinned I think we'd completely lose track of it.

Ah, ignore me.

Of course now I understand why Foster was so keen on the Cash for Ash scam.  Those headbangers really do seem to like their hellfire and brimstone.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: ZenArcade 03 April, 2020, 08:24:27 AM
Jesus, you guys giving out about swivel eyed DUP head the balls. I have to live here with them in power.  They are an admixture of utter greed and bat-shit lunacy, yer man (scarcely) speaks for many, many people in NI. Z
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Mister Pops 03 April, 2020, 04:11:21 PM
Yeah, this is the shower that thought it would be better to take pandemic leadership cues from a newspaper editor who got himself infected and lives across the sea, than take advice from a qualified doctor who lives on the same small island as us.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 03 April, 2020, 04:44:52 PM
UPDATE ON THE PSYCHO SITUATION

I have just spoken in person with the Landlord, in company with a couple of the other tenants.

As self-appointed Block Spokesperson, I fully apprised him of what had been happening with regard to the rather unpleasant woman - and her vile anti-social behaviour - of whom I wrote about a couple of pages back.

My fellow Block residents concurred with me as to how she had behaving. They had some anecdotes of their own to add, and were as one with me in wishing to see her removed from the building ASAP and that she never be allowed to return here again.

The Landlord was shocked by what we had to tell him. He said "okay" and the last that I saw of him was him heading upstairs, presumably to sort things out. He's a decent enough 'ould skin, so I am quietly confident that he will deal with the issue and that will be the end of it.

This was not a route that I ever wanted to go down, but at the end of the day, the creature has no one but herself to blame.

The celebratory cup of Peppermint tea that I brewed is tasting particularly good right now.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Fungus 03 April, 2020, 05:22:42 PM
Nice one Paddy. This episode has reminded me of my own torment with one neighbour. There were ‘issues’ involved and the whole thing was an institutional attempt to house a problem individual. What I’d done to deserve this, who knows.... anyway, the peace after this spell was palpable. Enjoy your own 👏 😀
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Richard 03 April, 2020, 06:32:45 PM
Result! And you didn't even have to murder anyone. Well done!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 03 April, 2020, 06:50:31 PM
Thanks, Fungus and much appreciated.

I feel your pain on the "bad neighbours" front. Just a couple of years back, shortly after I had to give up work on account of my own mental health issues - name chronic anxiety, depression and work related burn-out among a number of issues (and which I have previously documented) I found myself in the classic Neighbours-from-Hell scenario.

Some charity or other thought it would be a good idea to parachute a single, teenage mother into a house full of middle-aged men. The landlord, having a social conscience and taking pity on her situation, agreed to this. Although I was not exactly thrilled at the prospect of there a baby in the room beside me - the house is older than God and was built when insulation was an optional extra - I nevertheless accepted the situation as it was. And as I have previously explained, amongst my many quirks, I have serious issues with regard to Noise Intolerance.

But to my pleasant surprise, neither mother nor new-born bairn caused me any significant problems and I hardly heard a peep out of the little mite. Until, that is, the young mother decided to install her truly horrible, weed-addicted teenage boyfriend into the room with them.

There then followed possibly some of the worst months of my life, as I had to endure the regular and seemingly endless screaming matches and rows between these two, seriously fucked-up equivalents of Romeo and Juliet. He, in particular, was a truly nasty piece of work - selfish, brain-dead, aggressive and violent to the core. (I once heard her shouting at him: "Ya hit me! Ya punched me in front of me daughter!" So that will give you an idea as to what an utterly despicable character that this malcontent was).

Anyways, to cut a long and savage story mercifully short, the Landlord gave them their marching orders. But he had to wait some time before the Social Services found somewhere else to house them. (Had it been up to me, I would have had the innocent child given into the care of a decent family, and left her parents to rot in a leaky, one man tent under a roundabout off the M50).

My point is, that there must surely be an onus on these charities and other institutions to (a) provide the necessary support, guidance, and regular ongoing interaction for the people that they are housing to help them adjust, (b) to set out the duty-of-care and responsibility they have towards the other tenants around them, and (c) make it abundantly clear to them, that if they cause serious problems of the kind that the two in question did, they they will be removed post-haste.

From what I could see and witnessed, none of this seems to have been in evidence in this case.

As a look through several of my previous posts on this forum have shown, I have demonstrated great empathy towards some of my fellow boarders who have written of their own mental-health problems. And I will continue to do so. But when someone starts to use those issues - whatever they may be - as an excuse to run roughshod over everyone else around them, and make other people's lives an absolute misery in the process, then that is where I draw the line.

Glad to hear that you survived your own encounter with that situation, Fungus, and thanks again for your support.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 03 April, 2020, 08:09:55 PM
... I have demonstrated great empathy towards some of my fellow boarders who have written of their own mental-health problems. And I will continue to do so. But when someone starts to use those issues - whatever they may be - as an excuse to run roughshod over everyone else around them, and make other people's lives an absolute misery in the process, then that is where I draw the line.

Fair point, I think though that possibly a degree of compassion may be in order?  Not justifying such behaviour for an instance but here is the question, and once again the thread morphs:

- at what point do we 'give up' on someone who struggles with the psychological impact of their lives?

I'm not asking this in the abstract, this is a real question to me.  I live with the impact of trauma and the BPD(EU) that I have been diagnosed with on a daily basis.  I fight with it.  The thing is though, for a long time I didn't understand it.

Through all the time that I did not understand it, my behaviour was vile.  I cringe when I rethink those moments in my life.  The last 5 or more years I have been working to evolve beyond the experiences that shaped them.  I'm still not perfect but I recognise far quicker when I need to step back.  Now though I have landed myself in a world of trouble through a moment's lapse.  Even before this Covid crap kicked into high gear it already looked like I was f****ed.

I'm not saying that my diagnosis / condition / experience is an excuse to run roughshod.  What I am saying though is that some people might see it that way.  They see only that single moment.  Am I a lost cause?  Should those around me give up on me.  Should I give up on me?

I know that the Christian Gospel is held in low regard round here.  Considering the attitude of some who profess to 'believe' it, that is entirely understandable.  But looking at one line from a purely philosophical point of view.  So Peter turns round to Jesus and says "is seven times enough to forgive", and you can almost hear the cogs turning, the old 'how great and compassionate am I' as he bigs himself up.  Then he gets the reply.  "Seven times?  Try seventy times seven."  You can almost hear the jaw drop.  How the hell am I going to keep track if I've got to forgive that many times?  Isn't that a fair point?  How many times do we want to forgive?  How many times should we?

I've lost count of the number of times over the years that I've learned something about people that explains there behaviour.  Not justifies, mind.  I don't know.  Is the next time we forgive someone the one that breaks the camels back?  Is it the one that does make the change permanent?  I'm not talking about accepting behaviour that is wrong, immoral or obscene.  Hell, I can think of a number of people who I could cheerfully see burn for their behaviour and actions forty odd years ago.  This is a major challenge to me so I get why anyone would have trouble here.

I don't know.  I don't have the answers.  Only so many questions.  Feel free to shoot me down, challenge me, give me more questions.  Feel free to judge me.  Just take care folks.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Doctor Alt 8 05 April, 2020, 04:23:37 AM
I normally visit my friend Adrian once a week an cook him a meal, do any domestic chores because he can't ( or rather it's extremely difficult for him to do,) Do any shopping (Walking with two crutches mean he isn't able to move and quee )

Well because of the lockdown I have only been round once. I said that if he needs anything to call...I'm just concerned that I could be caught and fined. Although helping someone in his position is supposed to be allowable.

However I haven't seen any police patrolling... yet. Most people seem to be obeying the stay at home except shopping for food. other places are shut. Croydon is almost a ghost town..... This could kill the independent businesses not that there is many... There is a or rather was a V popular puzzle cafe. I hope it weathers this crisis.
At least the panic buying has died down but things are not completely normal supply wise ... things still missing from the shelves.  I think it's a distribution problem.


: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Old Tankie 05 April, 2020, 07:50:21 AM
Carry on helping your friend, you are obviously a caring person.  Caring is allowed.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 05 April, 2020, 08:47:00 AM
Yeah, there are no circumstances where you will be fined for caring for a vulnerable or incapacitated person. From experiences in Ireland, if you're worried just bring a note with Adrian's name and address and tell any cop that that's where you're going, and why.

And good on you, Doc.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 05 April, 2020, 12:04:29 PM
Kudo's to you, Doctor Alt 8. The world needs more good peeps like you in it. (And in case the cops give you grief, you can always adopt your Eldster disguise that you recently posted about, then slip back into your normal youthful persona to avoid detection.   ;) )

Stay safe and all the best.

Below are two links to brighten up my fellow Squaxx' days. The first is another timely, cartoon masterpiece by the inimitable Mr Turner.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/martyn-turner-1.4220229

And below, a great, good news story about an 82 year-old Irish War Veteran who has beaten the virus. I wish him many more happy and healthy years ahead.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/jadotville-picnic-compared-82-year-old-tom-gunn-surviving-coronavirus-995121
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Doctor Alt 8 05 April, 2020, 12:46:02 PM
Thanks folks.

I have to be somewhat careful as mother is at the highest risk... being 82 with COPD. My friend Henry is in the same position and was given advice via a letter from the health service. (Like keeping 3 feet away from other members of the household.. and keeping his cutlery and crockery separate from everyone else.)    It's worrying because his brother is a driving instructor... clearly he can't work now and apparently it could be 3 months before he gets anything from unemployment.  The pair don't seem to understand that they now have to save money... they are a pair of spendthrifts and this crisis isn't helping. (Neither is owning 3 spoilt rotten dogs.)  I know we all should treat our pets like royalty but there are limits...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: von Boom 05 April, 2020, 01:15:41 PM
Good for you Dr.Alt8. Caring for the vulnerable is more important than ever.

Had an update from my mum about my uncle's bypass surgery. The surgeon saw him and said they can't wait. He's due to go in within the next two weeks. The biggest concern is going to be infection, but there's no way to avoid it. It would be a shame for the surgery to go well only to get the covid virus while trying to recover from bypass surgery.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 05 April, 2020, 01:52:32 PM
Best wishes and fingers crossed for your Uncle, Von Boom.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: von Boom 05 April, 2020, 03:10:29 PM
Cheers, paddy. I hope your own difficulties turn around.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Doctor Alt 8 05 April, 2020, 04:29:27 PM
Best wishes for the op.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 05 April, 2020, 09:31:37 PM
Man who boasts about going to hospitals and shaking hands with many people gets admitted to hospital with Covid-19 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52177125).



(the man is Boris Johnson)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 05 April, 2020, 09:48:58 PM



(the man is Boris Johnson)


The agony here.  On the one hand, we are talking about Johnson.  On the other hand we are talking about a human being (albeit a Tory politician).  I'm going to go with a soupçon of sympathy.

Are we looking at the first national leader to join the 1% though?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 05 April, 2020, 10:59:44 PM



(the man is Boris Johnson)


The agony here.  On the one hand, we are talking about Johnson.  On the other hand we are talking about a human being (albeit a Tory politician).  I'm going to go with a soupçon of sympathy.

Are we looking at the first national leader to join the 1% though?

You say one percent, and the 'just as bad as the flu, stop making a fuss' brigade said two percent, but when I look at diagnosed cases and the current deaths in this country, it's more like nine (and that's only hospital deaths and without post mortems of those who died but weren't diagnosed while still alive).

Though this is all assuming he actually does have it and it isn't just a bluff - like when Trump's doctor allegedly said he was healthy.  Just as a reminder of the latter, a few quotes from that medical report:
"laboratory results are astonishingly excellent"
"will be the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency"
"health is excellent, especially his mental health"

Oh, and a few months later the same doctor said the following, which was a massive surprise to everybody:
"Mr. Trump dictated the letter and I would tell him what he couldn't put in there..."
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JOE SOAP 05 April, 2020, 11:37:44 PM
when I look at diagnosed cases and the current deaths in this country, it's more like nine (and that's only hospital deaths and without post mortems of those who died but weren't diagnosed while still alive).

UK having done so little community testing and tracing so far means the official infected numbers recorded are way too low in comparison to deaths, and most likely far below actual number of infections. Still a high death rate, unfortunately.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 05 April, 2020, 11:45:24 PM
All politics aside, here's hoping the Prime Minister's illness is a short one.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 06 April, 2020, 12:18:50 AM
...and that he recovers.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 06 April, 2020, 07:32:35 AM
NM
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 06 April, 2020, 07:51:44 AM


Deaths registered weekly in England and Wales, provisional: week ending 20 March 2020. (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending20march2020)

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 06 April, 2020, 08:38:17 AM
I use this site.  As the mortality rate is skewed by the lack of testing I go by 'deaths/1 million population' instead.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 06 April, 2020, 12:16:25 PM
TBH I'm not completely surprised at the lack of specificity when it comes to recording of deaths.  When my father in law died the year before last it was about 6 hours before a doctor turned up to confirm the death and several hours more before the undertaker collected the body. 

As he had become a high dependency home care patient in the last few months he was in a hospital bed in the middle of the living room of their home.  All we could do was sit and wait with his corpse laying in the middle of the room.

Bearing in mind that this was a point in time when medical services were not really under much in the way of pressure ...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 06 April, 2020, 02:26:40 PM
...and that he recovers.

That goes without saying.

HAVING SAID THAT it would be a very Boris thing for him to catch the virus he said everyone should catch and then die of it.  This is exactly how a British writer's satirical play about a politician with Boris' career and character would end.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 06 April, 2020, 03:00:17 PM
He'd better not die.  I don't want him martyred - I want him held to account.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 06 April, 2020, 06:04:28 PM
He'd better not die.  I don't want him martyred - I want him held to account.

Has this been mentioned on this thread before?  He'll be held to account about the same time Tony Blair will be tried as a war criminal...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Mister Pops 06 April, 2020, 06:30:16 PM
I would never wish death upon another human being, so I hope the fucking dickhead recovers.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 06 April, 2020, 06:53:37 PM
He'd better not die.  I don't want him martyred - I want him held to account.

Has this been mentioned on this thread before?  He'll be held to account about the same time Tony Blair will be tried as a war criminal...

Good point.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 06 April, 2020, 09:21:55 PM
Well, the news is now reporting that he's been taken into Intensive Care. 

What makes me laugh is that I have a vague recollection of someone lambasting RT earlier today for spreading 'fake news' about the state of Johnson's health.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 07 April, 2020, 01:51:47 AM
Royal Gwent hospital preparing for the worst in terms of deaths and being swamped by cases in next 48 hours:

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/ive-young-fit-well-patients-18048123

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-52182550


Also word coming through Twitter that two Swansea nurses have died. Another three still in ICU.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 07 April, 2020, 08:37:34 AM
The reason Trump is pushing a drug with some nasty side effects, untested against COVID-19, suddenly becomes clear (although we probably all suspected it):

“If hydroxychloroquine becomes an accepted treatment, several pharmaceutical companies stand to profit, including shareholders and senior executives with connections to the president. Mr. Trump himself has a small personal financial interest in Sanofi, the French drugmaker that makes Plaquenil, the brand-name version of hydroxychloroquine.”


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/us/politics/coronavirus-trump-malaria-drug.html
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 07 April, 2020, 09:28:06 AM
I think this theory is giving Trump too much credit.  He's just that sad little kid who aggressively tells everyone his Dad is a secret agent, and you better listen because he taught him three ways to kill you with his little finger, and also JFK survived and is kept in a secret room under the Pentagon, and his Dad didn't come to parents' evening because he's in deep cover in the Kremlin and that guy you saw coming out of William Hill's just looked like him.

More cynically, he probably has vastly larger investments in many things that will be adversely affected by his mumbling incoherence, so this is just a miserable coincidence.   
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 07 April, 2020, 02:34:02 PM
Community policing at its finest. Could do with one of these where I am, lol.

https://9gag.com/hot/aDgynex?utm_campaign=link_post&utm_medium=social&utm_source=Facebook


: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 07 April, 2020, 03:09:10 PM
Community policing at its finest. Could do with one of these where I am, lol.

https://9gag.com/hot/aDgynex?utm_campaign=link_post&utm_medium=social&utm_source=Facebook

I welcome our new alien overlords.  They might be less lethal than our current ones.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 07 April, 2020, 03:40:53 PM
Urgh – beds, beds, beds.  COVID-19 appears to be sucking them up, alongside life threatening illnesses which are now taking longer to treat.

Other services are really starting to feel the bite now.  The government have tried to source beds for dementia patients, perhaps prompted by letters from bodies such as the Alzhiemer’s Society:

https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/news/2020-03-12/coronavirus-alzheimers-society-call-government-covid-19-outbreak


However, this has now rolled over into mental health, where charities have serious concerns that mental health patients in hospitals or council-funded wards, many a danger to themselves and others, are being turfed out onto the street to secure COVID-19 beds, dementia beds and more.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul etc.

The mental health charity my partner works for have been so alarmed by this (especially as some recently released patients have committed suicide, and at least one has committed criminal offences) they released an open letter to the government, details here:

https://www.hafal.org/2020/04/hafal-calls-on-health-minister-to-guarantee-the-safety-of-its-client-group-during-covid-19-outbreak/


Why am I mentioning this?  I don’t know really, other than to again highlight the dangerous precipice our entire heath system has been dangling over for best part for a decade now, and how the cracks have split into wide chasms when put under pressure. 

Folk we know, like our very own Eammon, and other key workers, be they providing mental health services, frontline NHS doctors and nurses, carers for a variety of disabilities, even folk like bus drivers, shop assistants etc etc etc, must be under some quite extraordinary and horrific pressure right now. 

I know my partner is, and she’s a bit on the periphery of the pressure the NHS is under – she’s on call after call, trying to get her staff PPE so they can visit service users and don’t get infected, putting disaster-recovery plans in place with affiliated charities as folk are turfed onto the street, trying to pull beds out of thin air for NHS managers, and trying to support the police who are themselves trying their best to protect those released early, and protect those around them.

People are being, and will continue to be, harmed.

Our health services inside and outside our hospitals are on a brutal razor’s edge right now.  Once we’re through this crisis we CANNOT allow this to happen again.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 07 April, 2020, 04:02:53 PM
Also word coming through Twitter that two Swansea nurses have died. Another three still in ICU.

Swansea Bay NHS have said this is categorically not the case - the nurse in another district got the wrong end of the stick.  As per post above, with the pressure NHS workers are under, these things are going to happen.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 07 April, 2020, 06:17:33 PM

"Once we’re through this crisis we CANNOT allow this to happen again."

Don't worry, I'm sure our benevolent masters have a Plan. Sure, it probably involves increased debt slavery, Public Health Mandatory Checkpoints, a binding social credit system, centrally controlled digital currencies, forced vaccinations, criminalising illness, and compulsory  self - imprisonment -  isolation periods but, hey, a plan is a plan, right?

No matter what one thinks of the virus itself (overblown or under-reported, natural or man-made, originating in China or the US, lethal or innocuous),  [sarcasm] only a paltry 1/3 of humanity is on lockdown so far - fingers crossed for more next time, eh? [/sarcasm]

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 07 April, 2020, 07:19:13 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of socialism.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 07 April, 2020, 07:22:35 PM

"Once we’re through this crisis we CANNOT allow this to happen again."

Don't worry, I'm sure our benevolent masters have a Plan. Sure, it probably involves increased debt slavery, Public Health Mandatory Checkpoints, a binding social credit system, centrally controlled digital currencies, forced vaccinations, criminalising illness, and compulsory  self - imprisonment -  isolation periods but, hey, a plan is a plan, right?

No matter what one thinks of the virus itself (overblown or under-reported, natural or man-made, originating in China or the US, lethal or innocuous),  [sarcasm] only a paltry 1/3 of humanity is on lockdown so far - fingers crossed for more next time, eh? [/sarcasm]

(https://www.reactiongifs.com/r/tbt.gif)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 07 April, 2020, 08:03:14 PM

Great pic, FS!

A true anarchist helping people escape from tyranny and oppression! (Or a criminal helping fugitives flee the justice of their rightful ruler, I guess, depending on your viewpoint.)

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Modern Panther 07 April, 2020, 08:37:44 PM
A police officer helps people flee a capitalist monopoly and forge a representative democracy where the means of production belong to the workers.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 07 April, 2020, 09:12:48 PM

Indeed - but in the end he walks away.

Or is sometimes left behind.

But he chooses his own masters. Chooses his own path, for better or worse. Gotta love ol' Max! :D

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 07 April, 2020, 11:44:20 PM
Can't resist the urge to expose the misinformation you presented...

natural or man-made

This is an example of false balance. Covid-19 is natural (https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/the-new-coronavirus-was-not-genetically-engineered-study-shows), not man-made.


originating in China or the US

Another example of false balance. It was China (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus_disease_2019).


lethal or innocuous

This is a false dichotomy: there's a rainbow of possible outcomes for victims. The actual fatality rate is a moving target (https://www.newscientist.com/article/2239497-why-we-still-dont-know-what-the-death-rate-is-for-covid-19/) as we're still in the grip of the crisis. Everyone agrees it's much more serious than flu (except for conspiracy nuts and idiots) - because of all the dead bodies.


overblown or under-reported

Another false dichotomy. It would be impossible to mount a strong argument for "overblown" given that the global shut-down is (drum roll) unprecedented (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52137727). On the other hand, Turkmenistan  (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52186521)is pretending it isn't happening. And in-between there are all the colours of the rainbow (again - isn't it pretty).

---

You also managed to strongly imply that the measures put in place to slow the spread of the virus are somehow a government plot to control everyone - but I'm too tired to even. It's just so fucking disrespectful of you to come on here and talk shit about your conspiracy theory bollocks when people are dying.

Because:

New York reports highest single-day virus death toll (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52205118)
Coronavirus French death toll passes 10,000 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52202705)
Doctor in his 70s at Kingston Hospital dies (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-52204509)
'Stay at home' plea from pregnant nurse with Covid-19 (https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-birmingham-52206276/stay-at-home-plea-from-pregnant-nurse-with-covid-19)
etc.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 08 April, 2020, 05:47:15 AM
This is a long read, but a stunning and brutal expose on the failure of our government.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-britain-path-speci-idUSKBN21P1VF


Projections show U.K. will be the worst hit in all of Europe.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/07/uk-will-be-europes-worst-hit-by-coronavirus-study-predicts

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 08 April, 2020, 02:17:06 PM
It's well worth the read but not exactly surprising.  Not to mention the flaws in the old "we're following the science" line.  Just ignoring the calibre of scientist that normally ends up in governmental positions.

... and in related news, Trump is now castigating the WHO for providing poor advice and attempting to re-write the History of Covid-19 in the USA as a result of his own failings.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 08 April, 2020, 02:36:46 PM
The usual attempts to shift blame from that odious fat shite.

The WHO are hardly blameless in their earliest responses, but even so the facts had been shouted from the rooftops for over a month before Trump did anything other than mock concern about Covid-19.

And if there was justifiable concern about the WHO's impartiality, it was the Trump Admin who'd made the US completely reliant on the WHO: it obliterated the US Epidemiological presence in China, including 2/3rds of the Beijing CDC office, and closed the Beijing offices of the National Science Foundation and the Agency for International Development, both of which dealt with the potential for and response to pandemics. 

“We had a large operation of experts in China who were brought back during this administration, some of them months before the outbreak,” said one of the people who witnessed the withdrawal of U.S. personnel. “You have to consider the possibility that our drawdown made this catastrophe more likely or more difficult to respond to.”  Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-cdc-exclusiv/exclusive-u-s-slashed-cdc-staff-inside-china-prior-to-coronavirus-outbreak-idUSKBN21C3N5)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: von Boom 08 April, 2020, 04:27:30 PM
A message from Motley Crue's Tommy Lee:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EU3ryETXYAEt7ZC?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EU3ryV5WoAEpPrF?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EU3ryV7WkAIvW5c?format=jpg&name=medium)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 08 April, 2020, 05:56:35 PM

Speaking of Trump:

"When an AP reporter
 attempted to ask Trump
 about the issue on Sunday,
 the president cut off the
 question.

“FEMA, the military, what
 they’ve done is a miracle,”
Trump said with a flash of
 anger. “What they’ve done is
 a miracle in getting all of this
 stuff. What they have done
 for states is incredible.”

Trump then ended the
 briefing and walked off the
 podium."

From:

US 'wasted’ months before preparing for coronavirus pandemic
By MICHAEL BIESECKER April 6, 2020 GMT
WASHINGTON (AP) (https://apnews.com/090600c299a8cf07f5b44d92534856bc)

Quite a list of failures.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 08 April, 2020, 06:37:09 PM
A message from Motley Crue's Tommy Lee:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EU3ryETXYAEt7ZC?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EU3ryV5WoAEpPrF?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EU3ryV7WkAIvW5c?format=jpg&name=medium)

It wasn't Tommy Lee who wrote that:

https://heavy.com/entertainment/2020/04/tommy-lee-trump-letter-twitter/


It was this dude on Twitter - @AJPennyFarthing
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Pete Wells 08 April, 2020, 07:01:02 PM
My lil’ girl has got us making hone made squishies tonight. I’m rather pleased with mine...

(https://i.postimg.cc/kXPCt7P6/75-C2-F307-D812-437-B-AB30-232-ED5-B8-DDBF.jpg)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: von Boom 08 April, 2020, 08:31:45 PM
A message from Motley Crue's Tommy Lee:

It wasn't Tommy Lee who wrote that:

https://heavy.com/entertainment/2020/04/tommy-lee-trump-letter-twitter/


It was this dude on Twitter - @AJPennyFarthing
That's a shame.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 09 April, 2020, 08:16:03 AM
Clap for Boris? Christ. The right-wing media really are Gestapo-like.

The numbers being reported are horrendous, and we are being asked to clap and support a PM and his Government who failed us all, and continue to do so.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 09 April, 2020, 09:55:54 AM
Funt Solo: thank you for your rebuttal earlier. Shark: consider this a warning. Earlier in this thread, it was clearly stated that misinformation on this topic will not be tolerated.

Tjm: "we're following the science”

Increasingly clear that line was double-edged (per perhaps, er, more edged). Sets up ‘blame’. (We just did what the scientists told us.) But also aligns with ideology (by following/prioritising specific types of science, such as behavioural). Increasingly, it’s obvious what should have been done: even if the nudge technique was used, it should have been started two weeks earlier, as a precautionary measure. Brexiters have been banging on about borders for four years, but didn’t close ours when it actually mattered.

The US comes out of this even worse. You can only imagine how long this disease is going to rattle around for now.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 09 April, 2020, 11:15:12 AM
Even the Cats are setting a good example.

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10160377221751840&set=a.109041001839
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 09 April, 2020, 01:47:44 PM
Tjm: "we're following the science”

Increasingly clear that line was double-edged (per perhaps, er, more edged). Sets up ‘blame’. (We just did what the scientists told us.) But also aligns with ideology (by following/prioritising specific types of science, such as behavioural).

Aye.  This is possibly the most terrifying aspect of all this.  It's almost like someone watched every bad Sci Fi catastrophe movie ever made and then decided to use the old "over-promoted half wit slaps down the outsider expert with the real solution" trope as their recruiting and crisis management strategy. 

If it wasn't for the fact that it was really happening and the death toll was so high I might be inclined to think that I'd turned to the latest hollywood brain-buster rather than the evening news.  It's like we're in the 2nd act where the muppets still run the show, the brainless leader has taken it in the chest but too many spineless lackeys are managing to keep his old plates spinning so the real 'experts' still can't get a look in.  Oh and by the way, the third act shocker is going to make the death toll by the end of the first act look tame.

I would like to stress that this is a fictional plot for a really dire "made for Channel 5 / direct to Amazon Prime" movie.  Any resemblance to actual events and / or people is just an absolutely horrifying coincidence.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 09 April, 2020, 02:05:41 PM
One of my (many) nagging fears for the medium-to-long term is that if we dodge the worst of the bullet in the UK and come out with only (!) 15-20,000 fatalities then we'll end up with another Y2K situation where people (including many who absolutely should know better) will claim the lack of a worst case scenario as proof of an over-reaction, rather than an effective reaction.

Which will only make it all the harder to coordinate an effective response in the general population when the next pandemic hits.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 09 April, 2020, 02:22:45 PM
Thing is, short of a miracle, even our best-case scenario will put us as the worst case in Europe. (I suspect the USA will end up worse off per capita than we do.) The government will need to answer to that. Why did we do worse than Germany, France and even Spain, not least when we had massive advance warning? Blaming scientists won’t be enough when there is video footage of Johnson acting like a fucking idiot and saying he was shaking hands with people, and that we didn’t need to shut stuff down.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 09 April, 2020, 02:36:38 PM
... we'll end up with another Y2K situation where people (including many who absolutely should know better) will claim the lack of a worst case scenario as proof of an over-reaction, rather than an effective reaction.

See this, to my mind, is where the mainstream media has been so utterly pathetic, to the point of criminality, in recent decades.  The focus on pushing a particular agenda, selling more papers / pulling more viewers regardless of what the content is like or catching the scalp of some major politician in the same vein as Woodward and Bernstein has led to a standard of 'journalism' amongst professionals that is execrable to say the least.  A prime example being our current, inestimable Prime Minister, who built his career on the sort of material that wasn't even fit for the worst type of tabloid.

Now you factor in social media and the tendency of lunatics the world over the share the latest tin-foil ravings of some Hollywood star / 'influencer' as if it were fact rather than the vapid crap that would get them kicked out of your local branch of Weatherspoon's and you can see where this is heading.  Or rather has led us.  Time and again I've leafed through some of the utopian dreams of commentators of the nineties on how the internet is going to free us all and lead us to Nirvana.  They didn't see the likes of Zuckerberg coming.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 09 April, 2020, 05:35:55 PM
...people (including many who absolutely should know better) will claim the lack of a worst case scenario as proof of an over-reaction, rather than an effective reaction.

This.

My extended family in the US have been creatively interpreting the "stay home" mandate from the state governor to encompass a variety of households (thus not actually following the advice) and I've been the one loudly smashing pots and pans together and shouting "Get off the beach! It's a tsunami!"

I expect as the curve gets duly flattened by the majority of people following the measures I'll get told "See: it wasn't all that bad - you were denting your pots and pans for nothing." Oh well. At least I'll be alive to feel the chagrin. [Knocks on wood.]
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 09 April, 2020, 07:29:38 PM

Bank of England to directly finance UK government’s extra spending. (https://www.ft.com/content/664c575b-0f54-44e5-ab78-2fd30ef213cb)

Cautiously optimistic about this - at the very least it might get people (finally) talking about where money comes from, what it's for, and better ways to create it. On the other hand, I worry that the current CENSORED.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 09 April, 2020, 08:16:26 PM
Sharky, you are doing the government's work for them because you are splitting focus away from what they did wrong.  "China created Covid in a laboratory" (SPOILER: no they didn't) and "the public panic buying toilet roll proves that people are stupid and are the ones who are really at fault here" are much the same thing - a shell game to make you talk about anything other than the fact that the government tried to let hundreds of thousands of people die to protect the economy.  They want to fracture the narrative and get people following their own little strands rather than concentrating on the most important one.
And it's working.  I see people already not only talking about how the response was an over-reaction, but that even if it was true we should go back to business as usual anyway.

I don't think people are really grasping that we didn't save some lives because of our governments' actions, we saved lives despite our governments' actions.  The plan was to let us die, and if we weren't as interconnected and wired to each other via dumbass social media connections and got a head start on the lockdown ourselves because we saw that's what they were doing in Asia, we'd have fucking fallen for it and we'd be looking at a bodycount a magnitude higher.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 09 April, 2020, 08:40:48 PM

Just to be clear, the ending to my last post should be interpreted as TONGUE-IN-CHEEK SELF-CENSORED and not REALLY CENSORED.

It's a kind of a joke, you see. I apologise for any confusion.

***

Prof, I'd love to respond but I'm walking on eggshells here. I'm even getting abusive PMs from one or two people who swear at me and then refuse to engage in further dialogue.

I have PMed an Admin and am awaiting guidance on what I can and can't say. (I have no problem with following the rules for public posts but I would like to know what the rules are so I can follow them.)

Everyone is more than welcome to PM me for a free and open discussion, if that idea floats your boat, but if anyone just wants a slanging match, I'm not interested.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 09 April, 2020, 09:43:56 PM
One of my (many) nagging fears for the medium-to-long term is that if we dodge the worst of the bullet in the UK and come out with only (!) 15-20,000 fatalities then we'll end up with another Y2K situation where people (including many who absolutely should know better) will claim the lack of a worst case scenario as proof of an over-reaction, rather than an effective reaction.

Which will only make it all the harder to coordinate an effective response in the general population when the next pandemic hits.
I'd chuck in people complaining that the campaign to have safe sex in the eighties to prevent AIDS was a waste of money as there wasn't a subsequent pandemic.  So I wouldn't hold out much hope that (if whatever the government eventually decides to do next works) they'll appreciate it could have been worse.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 09 April, 2020, 10:22:53 PM
“…the Government remains committed to the idea that the vast majority of the UK population will contract COVID-19, making a minimum number of deaths inevitable, albeit over a longer period of time.

“Using the Government’s own lowest estimate of a fatality rate at around 0.5%, this confirms that it has resigned itself to the expectation that some 264,000 Britons will inevitably die in ensuing months and years from the disease.“


Fuckers. Utter fuckers.

LINK. (https://bylinetimes.com/2020/04/09/leaked-home-office-call-reveals-uk-government-wants-economy-to-continue-running-as-we-will-all-get-covid-19-anyway/?fbclid=IwAR1TvyT9MYPPhz6B4R-0l-twcQW0ttSQQK7QXM9BvEYT5aumbFi5RzexrgI)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 09 April, 2020, 11:58:39 PM
First time I've heard of the Byline Times: but on the surface I'd be a bit wary of a news source that claims to have the only worthwhile truth (they do so in the article, and in their editorial stance). The story was covered with less mouth-foam by the BBC (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52219930) and the Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/09/coronavirus-uk-passport-office-accused-of-taking-cavalier-approach-to-staff-safety) (for example), neither of which saw the need to decry other news sources as not having dug deeply enough. There are editorial assumptions made (by BT) about the UK government having an over-arching and systemic shadow policy (although I don't doubt that it is possible they do).

The underlying logic is unfortunately difficult to avoid, though. Globally, each economy wants to lift restrictions as soon as it's able. Without a cure (or vaccine), that leaves the population exposed to the virus, which means more deaths. That term "flattening the curve" doesn't say anything about reducing what might be considered a minimum death rate - it does try to stop a maximal death rate (where the health services burst like a damn and potential survivors die by the bucket-load).

Into the subtleties (and here I would hope the UK government has some of its thought). Once you regain control over your health services (once that curve is flattened) you might be in a position to do what the Chinese and South Koreans (as two key examples) seemed to be so good at: isolating victims and tracking their contacts so as to control the spread. You can't do that when the infection is too widespread because it's too complex.

That Rupert Shute guy does seem like a dangerous moron, though. He says "You are no more at risk at the workplace as you would be in your home or at the supermarket". He seems to rather be missing the point of minimizing the number of people around you - unless he assumes we all live in enormous Victorian slum-dwellings with 100 to a room.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 10 April, 2020, 02:53:27 AM
Possibly because insomnia and booze are a factor, I feel the need to clarify that I'm not having a swipe at you, Funt, but: your first instinct is to question a lefty news source while offering as more reliable alternatives a media outlet that spent literally decades suppressing stories about members of government and its own staff raping children, and a newspaper notorious for being abandoned by its own readers in the last few years after being repeatedly caught fabricating stories (https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2019-09-11-how-the-uk-security-services-neutralised-the-countrys-leading-liberal-newspaper/) in service to UK intelligence agencies.
Like I say, it's important to be clear that I'm not having a dig at your post but making an observation about who we instinctively question or give the benefit of the doubt, and why that may be relevant as to why the practically-newborn Byline Times is hostile towards certain monolithic journalistic outlets and how/why they disseminate the information they do.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 10 April, 2020, 04:09:38 AM
Honestly, I think it's a fair criticism, to an extent. My defense is that "in all things, balance" (which I'm not sure is a quote, but it sounds like one, so I've used quotation marks).

So, The Guardian has its flaws, as does the BBC: but they both have a lot of staff (so a lot of editorial viewpoints) and a long track record of stories that one may also assume aren't biased. Should I tar their entire output with one brush, or take each instance on its own merits? The Byline Times I am judging on my few minutes of experience with one of their articles and their editorial stance: and it may turn out with the passage of time not to be fair. Still: they do seem to have taken a leap of logic in their reporting on this story - perhaps influenced by their own bias?

My following points (about what we can do in tackling the crisis to both minimize deaths and maximize productivity) were echoed back to me in a Channel 4 News segment tonight with the headline Government advisers probably overlooked mass testing early on, says public health professor (https://www.channel4.com/news/government-advisers-probably-overlooked-mass-testing-early-on-says-public-health-professor).

Whether this proves that I'm following a scientific consensus or whether I'm a slave to the established media is up for debate. No prizes for guessing what I think.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 10 April, 2020, 07:58:46 AM

Question everything.

Simple.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: CalHab 10 April, 2020, 08:38:06 AM
Thing is, short of a miracle, even our best-case scenario will put us as the worst case in Europe. (I suspect the USA will end up worse off per capita than we do.) The government will need to answer to that. Why did we do worse than Germany, France and even Spain, not least when we had massive advance warning? Blaming scientists won’t be enough when there is video footage of Johnson acting like a fucking idiot and saying he was shaking hands with people, and that we didn’t need to shut stuff down.

If we had a functional and critical popular press then I would agree with you. We don't. We have broadcast media which simply relays government briefings and a print press which is beholden to it's owners.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 10 April, 2020, 08:48:38 AM

We also have some very good independent journalists and researchers who are, unfortunately, too often dismissed as "conspiracy theorists" (whatever that even means).

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 10 April, 2020, 10:20:27 AM

We also have some very good independent journalists and researchers who are, unfortunately, too often dismissed as "conspiracy theorists" (whatever that even means).

Here you go Sharkey. Here’s an academic pamphlet on the definition of conspiracy theories and theorists.

https://www.climatechangecommunication.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ConspiracyTheoryHandbook.pdf
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 10 April, 2020, 10:47:14 AM
That Rupert Shute guy does seem like a dangerous moron, though. He says "You are no more at risk at the workplace as you would be in your home or at the supermarket". He seems to rather be missing the point of minimizing the number of people around you - unless he assumes we all live in enormous Victorian slum-dwellings with 100 to a room.
Home - alone, kept isolated from contact with potential carriers.

Supermarket - spending a minute or two at a time in close proximity to other people in the same aisle.

Work - spending seven or eight hours a metre or less from potential carriers.

I know which way around I see the hierarchy of risk!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 10 April, 2020, 02:36:58 PM
So, The Guardian has its flaws, as does the BBC: but they both have a lot of staff (so a lot of editorial viewpoints) and a long track record of stories that one may also assume aren't biased.

I'll only offer that I would never presume to tell someone they're wrong to boycott The Sun or Daily Mail.

Question everything.

Why?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 10 April, 2020, 03:43:35 PM
Question everything.

Why?
[/quote]

Why not?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 10 April, 2020, 04:32:47 PM
Question everything.
Why?

Why not?

Our first instinct on seeing this image...

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81n%2ByVC8ajL._AC_SX466_.jpg)

...isn't to count the tiles.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 10 April, 2020, 04:49:29 PM
Question everything.
Why?

Why not?

Our first instinct on seeing this image...

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81n%2ByVC8ajL._AC_SX466_.jpg)

...isn't to count the tiles.


I was questioning the questioner who questioned the statement to question everything? :-P
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 10 April, 2020, 05:01:30 PM
Are you sure?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 10 April, 2020, 05:19:01 PM
Question everything.
Why?

Why not?

Our first instinct on seeing this image...

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81n%2ByVC8ajL._AC_SX466_.jpg)

...isn't to count the tiles.


I was questioning the questioner who questioned the statement to question everything? :-P

I can be so dense. Still: nice mosaic.

(And interesting what you can do with 1369 tiles.)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Legendary Shark 10 April, 2020, 05:47:52 PM



Here you go Sharkey. Here’s an academic pamphlet on the definition of conspiracy theories and theorists.

https://www.climatechangecommunication.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ConspiracyTheoryHandbook.pdf

I read that - at least, I did if it's the one you posted earlier. I thought it contained a lot of good advice, advice which should be applied to every source. It did, however, imply that anyone who questions "reputable" sources is somehow bound to believe in every conspiracy there is. Still, a useful little book, thanks, SM.

The term 'conspiracy theorist' is, to me, a pejorative term used to describe anyone who doesn't believe an official account either partially or in its entirety. The paragons of example would be David 'Lizard Man' Ike or Alex 'They'll Kill Us All!' Jones. Whilst the information people like this often present is based in reported and even verifiable facts, the conclusions (or theories) they come to based upon them seem, at best, unlikely. I view this end of the spectrum in the same way I viewed Erich von Däniken when I was growing up - interesting, even thought-provoking, but ultimately probably wrong. Like von Däniken, these people turn their efforts into a business - and good luck to them, I say.

At the other end of the spectrum we have people like James 'The Link's In The Show-Notes' Corbett and Jon 'No More Fake News' Rappoport.  The information people like this often present is also based in reported and even verifiable facts, but the conclusions (or theories) they come to based upon them seem, at worst, incomplete - which some freely admit. I view this end of the spectrum in the same way I viewed newspapers when I was growing up - interesting, even thought-provoking, but ultimately probably on the right track. Like old-fashioned newspapers, these people seem to have a general thirst for the truth, whether it agrees with the official account or not - and good luck to them, I say. Most rely on donations to fund their work, so are ultimately businesses too.

Then there are the chattering masses in between - of which I am one - who latch onto 'TRUTH!' with unshakeable faith, or try to make sense of it all, or just go with the flow, or deal with the madness any way they can.

It seems unfair, to me, to lump all these disparate voices and perspectives together under a single, dismissive umbrella. And, technically, a conspiracy theory is just what the words themselves say - a theory to explain an ostensible flaw in an account, which may or may not involve conspirators, a theory meant to be explored and tested, a theory which provides evidence and not, as some believe, proof. Police, insurance companies, and courts investigate conspiracies all the time, working on their theories until they provide credible evidence. Yet we would not call these people "conspiracy theorists," even though it's part of their job.

Then we have the mainstream media and governments. The information people like this often present is also based in reported and even verifiable facts, but the conclusions (or theories) they come to based upon them seem, at worst, political - bending facts to fit agendas. I view this field in the same way I viewed comics when I was growing up - interesting, even thought-provoking, but ultimately probably just entertainment. Like John Wagner, these people seem to have a general thirst for projecting TRUTH! through a lens, bending it to agree with the official agenda - and good luck to them, many say.

This is why I say question everything.

It doesn't mean dismiss everything or disbelieve everything you don't like - that's what religion is for. It doesn't mean attack the opposing view or win the argument - that's what sport is for.

It simply means what it says, question everything - because nothing is entirely as it seems, and anyone who tells you otherwise is either in error or lying.

Question everything I've written, too, of course. I may be wrong about lots of things, I'm just as human and flawed as everyone else. Question Ike and Jones, question Corbett and Rappoport, question the msm, question me, question each other but, ultimately, question yourself as well.


TL;DR

A wise man once said to me, "Listen to everyone. Take what you need and discard the rest."

"Why?" I asked.

He shrugged and said, "Find out."


: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 10 April, 2020, 05:52:43 PM
980. This feels so unreal. The worst in all Europe.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 10 April, 2020, 06:11:02 PM
I'll only offer that I would never presume to tell someone they're wrong to boycott The Sun or Daily Mail.

The only really effective way to avoid the cognitive bias that allows conspiracy theories to flourish is to spend time looking at reportage even from those who would normally make your blood boil.  A healthy dose of scepticism and an open mind are the only defences we have.

Granted it can be painful to listen to the likes of Farage, Yaxley-Lennon or Trump.  It can feel a little insane spending five minutes on the RT site.  You come away from the Express site wondering if you have just been pranked.  Then again it also makes you more critical of the Guardian or the BBC.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Mister Pops 10 April, 2020, 06:21:25 PM
There is genuinely "just asking questions" and there is casting undue suspicion and uncertainty and there is a difference between the two. Questions can either interrogate the facts or attempt to deny reality.

Anyway,  two funerals in as many weeks for my next door neighbours. One was the 88 year old matriarch of the household (Lily), nowt to do with covid-19, Lily was just really old. The second was today, her 54 year old son. That was covid-19.

This house had a non-stop flow of visitors and well wishers after Lily's passing. While the community support is admirable, it's also terrifying in the current circumstances.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 10 April, 2020, 08:48:25 PM
980 deaths recorded today in the U.K.,  the highest in all of Europe, IS NOT THE NUMBER ONE HEADLINE ON THE BBC NEWS WEBSITE.

Instead we have a fluff piece about the health secretary ‘working hard’ to source PPE!

The BBC has a duty to inform the citizens of the U.K. - failure to do so is dangerous negligence. If it refuses to report this, it is the end of it being a reputable source of information.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 10 April, 2020, 09:58:17 PM
980 deaths recorded today ...If it refuses to report this, it is the end of it being a reputable source of information.

Quick correction - it is reported, about halfway down the ‘Herculean effort’ Matt Hancock article.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 11 April, 2020, 08:03:17 AM

Instead we have a fluff piece about the health secretary ‘working hard’ to source PPE!


... and the Mail reporting that Hancock has allegedly criticised NHS staff over 'excessive use' of PPE (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8208991/Health-Secretary-Matt-Hancock-tells-medics-use-PPE-patients.html)!  This is in the same week that reports have emerged of  threats of disciplinary action against staff who talk to the media. (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/apr/09/nhs-staff-forbidden-speaking-out-publicly-about-coronavirus)  Leaving aside whistleblower protection, anyone who sends an email to staff along those lines is the one who should face sanctions, not the staff raising concerns about patient welfare.

I don't have a hell of a lot of time or respect for doctors after some of the idiots I've experienced in my past but even so I would still trust them more than some of the HR halfwits and PR specialists that are sucking valuable resources away from the real job of frontline staff.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 11 April, 2020, 08:54:50 AM
The numbers just terrify me. The pain and suffering, the families and friends left behind. It is just all so horrendous.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 11 April, 2020, 09:30:19 AM
I'm wondering how long it'll take for the real numbers to come out, if they ever do.  Remember, what gets reported on (however begrudgingly) is only the hospital deaths.  How many self-isolators without people checking in on them via phone, email, skype, etc are even now lying dead in their homes?

This was around the corner from where I used to live (not at the time I was living there, but it does mean I'm familiar with the area).  Under normal circumstances this person lived above a busy shopping centre (straddles the main road, two levels and a multi-storey car park, cinema, etc - it's a big place) and when they died had their TV on and audible from outside the flat.  She lay there dead for two years (https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/apr/14/audreygillan.uknews2).  Personally I think there are already hundreds of people in this situation already, and if there aren't, there will be by the time any restrictions are lifted.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 11 April, 2020, 09:54:02 AM
I hope that any actual investigation into this absolute shambles really does the job needed. We need people held to account, not slaps on the wrists when such recklessness and incompetence has been allowed to occur.

We knew it was coming. The science didn't change. They adopted a reckless policy. We are still not enforcing a proper lockdown, and every time I leave the house I'm just hoping and praying that I'm lucky enough to avoid this bloody thing.

To watch these chancers and liars on TV try to shift blame to the NHS, Footballers etc. just disgusts me.

The sad thing, as many have already said on the thread, I fully expect after this that it will all be whitewashed, Boris and his ilk will be venerated, and families all across the UK will be left to pick up the pieces and suffer in silence.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 11 April, 2020, 10:13:52 AM
You can already see the narrative being tested for the post-apocalypse scapegoating.  The big one is the idea that there was an element of 'group think' among scientific advisors that led to a degree of complacency on the part of politicians about the real risks. 

Chris Whitty seems to be the key fall-guy at the moment but there is also a very real sense in which the faceless mob of the civil service is likely to feature prominently in the roster of targets.  Much will be made of the "we are following the science" mantra of the early days despite the inherent ambivalence in that statement.

Let's face it, you've got a better chance of winning the lottery than a proper accounting once this is all done.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 11 April, 2020, 10:33:38 AM
You can already see the narrative being tested for the post-apocalypse scapegoating.  The big one is the idea that there was an element of 'group think' among scientific advisors that led to a degree of complacency on the part of politicians about the real risks. 

Chris Whitty seems to be the key fall-guy at the moment but there is also a very real sense in which the faceless mob of the civil service is likely to feature prominently in the roster of targets.  Much will be made of the "we are following the science" mantra of the early days despite the inherent ambivalence in that statement.

Let's face it, you've got a better chance of winning the lottery than a proper accounting once this is all done.

Sad, but true.

I would have hoped that the horror of this situation, and when you see people from all over the world, caring and loving the most vulnerable in our society, falling to a horrendous virus, that the scales would fall from peoples eyes, and the vileness of the likes of The Sun and Murdoch's assorted hate mongering services would finally be seen through, and perhaps our society could take a more positive and sceptical approach to the nonsense that has been force fed to us all.

Then you go on Twitter and see the balloons still harping on about how Brexit needs Brexited, and that the EU are being mean, that it is the fault of everyone except those in charge....

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sintec 11 April, 2020, 10:35:45 AM
980 deaths recorded today ...If it refuses to report this, it is the end of it being a reputable source of information.

Quick correction - it is reported, about halfway down the ‘Herculean effort’ Matt Hancock article.

It does feel like the BBC have decided to keep these figures out of the headlines this week. When it was Italy that was topping the figures the death toll there was headline news each day. Now it's hitting closer to home it's fluff pieces about the prime minsters recovery at the top of the billing and the death rate is hidden away where most people aren't going to see it. Feels a lot like an editoral decision to keep the public in the dark and focus their attention elsewhere. Or being less cynical it's an attempt to avoid panic by not telling people how bad the situation really is, which seems misguided to me as it risks people becoming complacent.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 11 April, 2020, 10:43:02 AM
The fact they, the BBC, had Stanley Johnson on, and didn't challenge him on his previous, distasteful, ignorant and dangerous comments on Coronavirus is a disgrace.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sintec 11 April, 2020, 11:47:42 AM
The fact they, the BBC, had Stanley Johnson on, and didn't challenge him on his previous, distasteful, ignorant and dangerous comments on Coronavirus is a disgrace.

Yeah I heard them quoting him all day yesterday on radio 6 until I eventually lost patience with it. I'm sure the first report quoted Stanley as saying Boris had "taken one for the team" which was particularly rage inducing. They had the good sense to select a different quote for later news reports.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 11 April, 2020, 11:50:21 AM
Much will be made of the "we are following the science" mantra of the early days
The key thing most publications aren’t asking is WHICH science. It’s not like all British scientists were going: keep delaying lockdown. Number 10 was paying far too much attention to behavioural science that just happened to align with its economy-first ideology.

Then you go on Twitter and see the balloons still harping on about how Brexit needs Brexited
There are at least some positive signs there — a few bellwether Brexiters have been stating outright they are fine with transition being extended, although we really need to get to the state where that’s “for up to the full two years” rather than “for as little time as possible”. (Some are still going with just a few weeks being enough. Nope. Two years won’t be nearly enough, but perhaps during that time we can agree to another extension somehow, if we’ve not pissed off the EU to the extent they won’t deal with us at all by then.)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 11 April, 2020, 11:55:26 AM
The fact they, the BBC, had Stanley Johnson on, and didn't challenge him on his previous, distasteful, ignorant and dangerous comments on Coronavirus is a disgrace.

Yeah I heard them quoting him all day yesterday on radio 6 until I eventually lost patience with it. I'm sure the first report quoted Stanley as saying Boris had "taken one for the team" which was particularly rage inducing. They had the good sense to select a different quote for later news reports.

Is it any wonder the media are so compliant, and unquestioning? Distracted by the access they have to nothings like Stanly Johnson.

Much easier I suppose to craft a story, from the father of the PM, than to cover the tragedy and needlessness of one of the hundreds, before long thousands, dying each and every day, and asking some of the bloody questions that need answer by the PM and his Government.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tiplodocus 11 April, 2020, 12:33:05 PM
 No chance of these Muppets being held accountable after the fact if you don't start it now.

The journalists at the Daily Briefing could be asking about ventilator numbers vs targets, pre numbers vs targets, testing numbers vs targets. And what dates these will be met?

And why the actual fuck New Zealand has only  1 death vs. Our horrendous total? Smaller country, sure. But not 7000 times smaller. Tell me Matt, Boris, why is that?
Numbers don't lie.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 11 April, 2020, 01:07:00 PM
Aye. We’re seeing this already.

https://medium.com/@juliovincent/prepare-for-the-ultimate-gaslighting-6a8ce3f0a0e0
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 11 April, 2020, 01:42:33 PM
Lessons from Ebola (https://the-parallax.com/2020/04/09/ebola-hacking-lessons-coronavirus/)

The minute you leave people out because they’re too poor, or black, or Asian, or because of their immigration status, you give the virus a place to hang out, and then it’ll come back. The minute you cut people out of these systems, you prolong the epidemic.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 11 April, 2020, 03:44:54 PM
Is it any wonder the media are so compliant, and unquestioning? Distracted by the access they have to nothings like Stanly Johnson.

They have access because Johnson is of their class, which is coincidentally also why he's entitled to airtime while the Greens can't buy their way onto BBC programming.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 11 April, 2020, 04:07:10 PM
Is it any wonder the media are so compliant, and unquestioning? Distracted by the access they have to nothings like Stanly Johnson.

They have access because Johnson is of their class, which is coincidentally also why he's entitled to airtime while the Greens can't buy their way onto BBC programming.

It’s a disgrace. What would anybody hope to learn from somebody so out of touch?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 11 April, 2020, 06:00:26 PM
The state of this. Absolutely vile propaganda! Nearly 1000 people die in one day due to the decisions made by this man, and this is what the Telegraph runs with. Sickening.

(https://i.imgur.com/2S4weW0.jpg)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 11 April, 2020, 08:05:10 PM
It’s a disgrace. What would anybody hope to learn from somebody so out of touch?

Believe it or not, Johnson has written books - and even more surprisingly, they are not colouring books.  I will sum them up thusly: "Britain good, sharing bad."  Amazingly, this applies to both his books on eugenics social theory, and eugenics environmental philosophy.

Anyway, it's a real brain-teaser why the BBC are wheeling a eugenicist member of the public with no scientific credentials onscreen after weeks of the government insisting that we should let certain people die so everyone else can have it easier.  It's just a mystery we'll never solve.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 12 April, 2020, 07:41:38 AM
The state of this. Absolutely vile propaganda!

Thing is though, the tagline is absolutely spot on.  Johnson is very much the epitome of the health of the body politic at this present time: diseased, corrupted, totally out of touch with the nation as a whole, slowly disintegrating and taking so many others down too.

Blair famously once said that history will judge him.  The same is going to be true of Johnson and his ilk.  Unfortunately I don't think it is going to be the history of the UK but rather the history of whatever nation arises out of the ashes.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 12 April, 2020, 08:55:53 AM
I'm now seriously considering queuing at our local supermarket every day, getting there as early as possible, so I can lift all copies of The Sun, Telegraph etc. and take them all to the Gluten Free aisle and hide them behind the shelves.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Colin YNWA 12 April, 2020, 09:47:13 AM
I'm now seriously considering queuing at our local supermarket every day, getting there as early as possible, so I can lift all copies of The Sun, Telegraph etc. and take them all to the Gluten Free aisle and hide them behind the shelves.

There's a lot of lessons this country could learn from the way Liverpool pull together after th Hillsborough Disaster and created their 'Total Eclipse of the Sun.'
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 12 April, 2020, 10:11:24 AM
I'm now seriously considering queuing at our local supermarket every day, getting there as early as possible, so I can lift all copies of The Sun, Telegraph etc. and take them all to the Gluten Free aisle and hide them behind the shelves.

There's a lot of lessons this country could learn from the way Liverpool pull together after th Hillsborough Disaster and created their 'Total Eclipse of the Sun.'

Colin, the people of Liverpool should be rightly proud they took a stand. The UK would be a much better place if we done away with it and a few other papers that that do so much psychic damage, and groom so many decent people to take their horrible headlines at face value. Generations of damage done.

Hopefully the financial losses quickly become too much, and they have to shut the bloody thing down. I'd have sympathy for those who make their livelihoods from working for it, but, seriously, you work for The Sun.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 12 April, 2020, 10:36:12 AM
I'm now seriously considering queuing at our local supermarket every day, getting there as early as possible, so I can lift all copies of The Sun, Telegraph etc. and take them all to the Gluten Free aisle and hide them behind the shelves.

See I would take them to the Toilet Roll aisle and put them on the shelves ...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 12 April, 2020, 10:40:12 AM
I'm now seriously considering queuing at our local supermarket every day, getting there as early as possible, so I can lift all copies of The Sun, Telegraph etc. and take them all to the Gluten Free aisle and hide them behind the shelves.

See I would take them to the Toilet Roll aisle and put them on the shelves ...

 :lol:
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 12 April, 2020, 11:04:31 AM
I'm now seriously considering queuing at our local supermarket every day, getting there as early as possible, so I can lift all copies of The Sun, Telegraph etc. and take them all to the Gluten Free aisle and hide them behind the shelves.
Bit harsh on us GFers.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 12 April, 2020, 11:16:45 AM
I'm now seriously considering queuing at our local supermarket every day, getting there as early as possible, so I can lift all copies of The Sun, Telegraph etc. and take them all to the Gluten Free aisle and hide them behind the shelves.
Bit harsh on us GFers.

Apologies, IndigoPrime.

We all have to suffer during these trying times, but some will have to suffer more than others.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Blue Cactus 12 April, 2020, 11:57:47 AM
Decided to modify this to remove my post cos I was just being a bit moany!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 12 April, 2020, 01:18:18 PM
We all have to suffer during these trying times, but some will have to suffer more than others.
You sound like my MP: “We all have to make sacrifices.” But while it’s one thing ensuring that I and millions of others will get no financial support, your suggestion I might glimpse The Sun or Telegraph when looking sadly at my restricted range of crap, expensive GF food is clearly a step too far, sir.

(Seriously, forumites: never, ever go GF unless you absolutely have to for medical reasons, or are stark, raving bonkers. And if you aren’t GF, please don’t take GF food from stores right now, like scumbags locally have been doing, because it’s “the only stuff that’s left” in some cases.)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 12 April, 2020, 01:57:20 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that your local MP is a Tory?

[PS, Rately old chap, the emoticon's do not appear to be working at present.  So sorry]
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 12 April, 2020, 01:59:23 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that your local MP is a Tory?

[PS, Rately old chap, the emoticon's do not appear to be working at present.  So sorry]

Just another bloody thing for me to gripe about! - insert  suitable emoticon here -
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 12 April, 2020, 02:32:25 PM
Tjm86: my MP is Ranil Jayawardena, one of those special Tories who’s the offspring of migrants and seemingly hates migrants. But he’ll be an MP here until he decides he doesn’t want to me, unless he does something really very bad indeed. (His predecessor was better, in that he wasn’t ERG-leaning, but even he had weird shit going on, like pretending to be a Christian for his entire incumbency.)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 12 April, 2020, 02:42:11 PM

[PS, Rately old chap, the emoticon's do not appear to be working at present.  So sorry]

Just another bloody thing for me to gripe about! - insert  suitable emoticon here -
[/quote]

Noticed that myself lately as well. Thought it was something to do with my laptop, or the settings on it... or just my own computer-based technical ineptitude.

Perhaps Tharg's Emoticon chip is malfunctioning?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Hawkmumbler 12 April, 2020, 03:58:42 PM
The entire website has had broken assets and artifacts for me since it's last update...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 12 April, 2020, 07:21:39 PM
Tjm86: my MP is Ranil Jayawardena, one of those special Tories who’s the offspring of migrants and seemingly hates migrants.

Ah yes, I know the type.  Also strangely enough seem to hate UK non-migrants or rather only like certain types of UK citizens.

As for the feigned faith: please do not get me started.  We Christians have a hard enough time as it is without having to deal with those who think that the Pharisees should be role-models.

I know that in some circles I'm likely to be stoned but I've loved some of the satirical website takes on the Easter story this weekend.  In particular those where they've suggested that the police have attempted to prosecute Jesus for breaching social distancing rules, congregating in groups of more than 2 to get hammered and leaving his tomb without an appropriate reason.  All I would say is try doing that with Islam and see how long you last!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 12 April, 2020, 08:08:33 PM
Try doing it 60 years ago in Ireland, and pretty much anywhere 200 years ago. Chrstianity's tolerance of mockery is a very recent development.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 12 April, 2020, 08:57:13 PM
Did a double-take, then almost keeled over laughing, at this hilarious example of mis-spelling in a reddit post that I have just seen.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/fj5ezw/government_calls_for_pubs_to_shit_from_midnight/

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 13 April, 2020, 12:10:31 AM
Try doing it 60 years ago in Ireland, and pretty much anywhere 200 years ago. Chrstianity's tolerance of mockery is a very recent development.

We're not out of the woods yet (https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/stephen-fry-blasphemy-ireland-getting-worse-around-the-world-a7723631.html).
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 13 April, 2020, 12:53:51 AM
Not sure Steven's comments count as mockery. Maybe righteous indignation?

"Bone cancer in children? What's that about? How dare you! How dare you create a world in which there is such misery that is not our fault. It's not right. It's utterly, utterly evil. Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid god who creates a world which is so full of injustice and pain. Because the god who created this universe (if it was created by god) is quite clearly a maniac. Utter maniac. Totally selfish."

As for Christianity being more tolerant than Islam: yer obvious irony there is that all the other religions tend to line up behind Islamic fundamentalism and support it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_OR3b-97Ds), on the grounds that religious intolerance is somehow a higher class of intolerance, and should be forgiven. You know: chucking urine-balloons at primary school children (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Cross_dispute) would normally be frowned upon, but ... add a bit of religion into the mix and it's all fine, somehow.

I don't mind anyone having their (entirely unfounded) beliefs in the supernatural - but it's a bit rich to go around claiming yours is better than anyone else's. Especially in public.

---

Going off topic a bit, I realize, so here's a pirate in a face mask:

(https://www.spaghettimonster.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/mask-eyepatch.jpg)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JOE SOAP 13 April, 2020, 02:00:27 AM
We're not out of the woods yet (https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/stephen-fry-blasphemy-ireland-getting-worse-around-the-world-a7723631.html).

Ireland’s Blasphemy Law was removed by referendum from the Constitution in 2018.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/27/ireland-votes-to-oust-blasphemy-ban-from-constitution
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IAMTHESYSTEM 13 April, 2020, 11:57:32 AM
I suspect the current crisis, once over, will do nothing but harden the pro-nationalist message that is shaping the world. Self-Isolation will encourage national isolation since it is easy to say, and accurate, that globalisation helped in the spread of the disease. A virus from China that originated in Bats found the perfect host, human beings and its incubation period allowed it to flourish far beyond its natural habitat aided by Air Travel. Even in Europe, borders appeared, and that will inevitably lead to questions about the open border policy, ones that favour local or national control. Coronavirus is another nail in the coffin of the globalised world, and trust in others may prove misguided with panic buying leading to stores having to limit the amount people could take with them. It's going to be a very different world after all this, a less trusting one, despite the apparent goodwill of many. Trade will continue pretty much unaffected, but personal travel may be far more restricted than before COVID-19 struck.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 13 April, 2020, 01:15:52 PM
A virus from China that originated in Bats found the perfect host,

Is that true?  Last I head that was just one of the theories - didn't realise it had been confirmed.  Source?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: MacabreMagpie 13 April, 2020, 02:52:48 PM
A virus from China that originated in Bats found the perfect host,

Is that true?  Last I head that was just one of the theories - didn't realise it had been confirmed.  Source?

I'd say "leading theory" rather than confirm. Not sure you really can confirm something like that.

"Scientists say it is highly likely that the virus came from bats but first passed through an intermediary animal in the same way that another coronavirus – the 2002 Sars outbreak – moved from horseshoe bats to cat-like civets before infecting humans."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/13/how-did-the-coronavirus-start-where-did-it-come-from-how-did-it-spread-humans-was-it-really-bats-pangolins-wuhan-animal-market
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IAMTHESYSTEM 13 April, 2020, 03:03:09 PM
Well, here's the Lancet a Medical journal that sites China, Wuhan City as the likely source of the COVID-19 Outbreak.

 
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30230-9/fulltext
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 13 April, 2020, 06:26:41 PM
Well, here's the Lancet a Medical journal that sites China, Wuhan City as the likely source of the COVID-19 Outbreak.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30230-9/fulltext

No mention of bats at all in that article...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IAMTHESYSTEM 13 April, 2020, 06:41:04 PM
Well, here's the Lancet a Medical journal that sites China, Wuhan City as the likely source of the COVID-19 Outbreak.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30230-9/fulltext

No mention of bats at all in that article...

Here is the Science Daily that reports Bats may have been the host animals of the disease, but some intermediate host either Pangolians or some civets creature were other possible candidates for transmission. I read there were bushmeat markets involved that sold various animals as food.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/03/200317175442.htm

 
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JOE SOAP 13 April, 2020, 09:56:01 PM
How China’s “Bat Woman” Hunted Down Viruses from SARS to the New Coronavirus

Wuhan-based virologist Shi Zhengli has identified dozens of deadly SARS-like viruses in bat caves, and she warns there are more out there


The genomic sequence of the virus—now officially called SARS-CoV-2 because it is related to the SARS pathogen—was 96 percent identical to that of a coronavirus the researchers had identified in horseshoe bats in Yunnan, they reported in a paper published last month in Nature. “It’s crystal clear that bats, once again, are the natural reservoir,” says Daszak, who was not involved in the study.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-chinas-bat-woman-hunted-down-viruses-from-sars-to-the-new-coronavirus1//[url]


: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 14 April, 2020, 10:11:38 AM
This is a long read, but it's a great reminder of the lethal decision making of the UK government since January.

https://bylinetimes.com/2020/04/11/a-national-scandal-a-timeline-of-the-uk-governments-woeful-response-to-the-coronavirus-crisis/

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 14 April, 2020, 10:43:44 AM
It's quite hard not to conclude that the UK government realised that the public wouldn't wear 250-500K dead as the price for herd immunity and decided instead to say all the right things about changing policy, but not actually do any of them.

Meanwhile, the WHO is saying that recovering from the infection is no guarantee of immunity (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/13/who-officials-say-its-unclear-whether-recovered-coronavirus-patients-are-immune-to-second-infection.html) which makes the entire 'herd immunity' argument irrelevant.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 14 April, 2020, 12:08:14 PM
Coronavirus: One in five deaths now linked to virus (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52278825)

...but something-something about deaths from flu each year, or something (luckily that little misinformation campaign has stayed away from this forum).
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 14 April, 2020, 08:33:49 PM
I assume the Tories liked the idea of "herd immunity", because it strongly implies that the populace are cattle.

I'm reminded of Griff Rhys-Jones (no, wait) Jacob Rees-Mogg and his (lies) that Glasgow had as high a death rate as the British concentration camps during the Boer War. He probably thinks it's true because he imagines Glasgow is a festering sore of scabies-ridden proletariat tenement dwellers. Scunthorpe.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tiplodocus 14 April, 2020, 09:25:18 PM
I'm assuming that end of this, a simple comparison of average number of deaths in 2015 to 2019 compared to the same periods in 2020 will give us a pretty horrific picture of the true scale of this and the gross negligence of this in charge.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 14 April, 2020, 09:34:54 PM
I'm assuming that end of this, a simple comparison of average number of deaths in 2015 to 2019 compared to the same periods in 2020 will give us a pretty horrific picture of the true scale of this and the gross negligence of this in charge.

No need to wait.  The Office of National Statistics (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths) has you covered.

(I've highlighted a few key numbers)

The provisional number of deaths registered in England and Wales in the week ending 3 April 2020 (Week 14) was 16,387; this represents an increase of 5,246 deaths registered compared with the previous week (Week 13) and 6,082 more than the five-year average.
    Of the deaths registered in Week 14, 3,475 mentioned “novel coronavirus (COVID-19)”, which was 21.2% of all deaths; this compares with 539 (4.8% of all deaths) in Week 13.
    In London, nearly half (46.6%) of deaths registered in Week 14 involved COVID-19; the West Midlands also had a high proportion of COVID-19 deaths, accounting for 22.1% of deaths registered in this region.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 15 April, 2020, 04:35:13 AM
Oh dear god. What has the Curious Orange done now?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-who-funding-white-house-press-briefing-today-coronavirus-a9465401.html

How much more insane can he get before someone takes him out?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 15 April, 2020, 08:44:27 AM
You have to think that the UK's mortality figures are the purest example of statistical distortion in the service of outright lies.  About half of Ireland's C-19 total deaths - that's HALF OF ALL C-19 DEATHS for those down the back - are from Nursing Home/residential care environments (and that's set to rise dramatically, and it's a f**king disgrace).  But in the UK it's about 300 recorded Nursing Home deaths out of over 12,000 total?  Something simply isn't right there, and it has to be a deliberate distortion - or a calculated omission. 
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 15 April, 2020, 08:50:20 AM
Oh dear god. What has the Curious Orange done now?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-who-funding-white-house-press-briefing-today-coronavirus-a9465401.html

How much more insane can he get before someone takes him out?

A solid election campaign play that seems fully in line with about half of what I read on social media, which blames the WHO for, if not directly engineering the virus in cooperation with a Wuhan bioweapons lab, at least deliberately spreading it globally on the orders/in the employ of either China, Big Pharma or Bill Gates. 

Straight out of the Boris 'blame the EU for us not listening to them' playbook.

Those fat fucks aren't as stupid as they look/sound/act/actually are.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 15 April, 2020, 08:54:19 AM
Something simply isn't right there, and it has to be a deliberate distortion - or a calculated omission.

Can't track it down now, but I saw a tweet yesterday from a proper reporter that funeral directors they've been speaking to are saying the 'extra' burials that are most likely COVID-related are running a 5:1 ratio between those coming in from care homes compared to hospitals.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Old Tankie 15 April, 2020, 09:22:49 AM
We live in extra care housing, approximately 100 of us, carers in and out all day. We have the virus in the building and we have had deaths but we are not sure what people have died from. There is no panic here, we are just doing our best to survive with the help of great staff.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 15 April, 2020, 09:52:26 AM
Hang in there Tankie.  Thinking of you dude.  I have two friends who work in this sector also - massively concerned for both of them, and one has also reported the virus is present.



Heading for 40,000 deaths - the world leader!  Yay, go us. 

Dr Anthony Costello,  Director of the Institute for Global Health, University College London:

"It's a public health catastrophe."

"If you have 12,000 now and add on half again for community deaths, that's 18,000, if you have the same deaths on the way down as the way up, that makes 36,000, and we haven't included care home deaths yet.  So we're heading up towards over 40,000 deaths.  That wold make us 200 times higher than Korea, and it could easily put us in 1st place for the world, although I think the US could rival us. So this is the worst public health catastrophe in the last century, and you have to ask questions about why it has happened."


Dr Allyson Pollock, Director of the Institute of Health and Society, Newcastle University:

On care homes:

"It's the final irony that the government said it was going to shield older and vulnerable people, and it is the one group we know absolutely hasn't been shielded or protected.  We know from the rest of Europe that about half of all the deaths have occurred in care homes, and its very likely we will see a similar picture here, with Scotland and UK reporting increasing deaths across care homes."


Dr Rosalyn Moran, Reader in Theoretical Neurobiology, King's College London:

"In our modelling we saw numbers around 49,000."



That's from the first 5 minutes of the COVID report 14/4/20.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY3sEIB7pJY
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 15 April, 2020, 10:13:53 AM
Dr Rosalyn Moran, Reader in Theoretical Neurobiology, King's College London:

"There could be three to up to ten subsequent waves... it'll look from January to now again... potentially there could be the same number of cases again without contact trace and quarantine."

Dr Bharat Pankhania, Senior Clinical Lecturer, Exeter Medical School:

"We have made no effort to gather an army of people who are going to do contact tracing.  I see no evidence of it.  Either we are going to do it, or we are not going to do it.  At the moment it looks like the government does not want to do it."


Dear god.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 15 April, 2020, 11:37:52 AM
This is just frightening, horrendous stuff.

The numbers are just terrifying, Shaolin_Monkey.

I fear that the Government are just hoping for some miracle, as the more I read about their handling of the situation, the clearer it becomes that they made an horrendous initial decision, and are now just flailing from disaster to disaster. There is no excuse. They knew it was coming, and they gambled peoples lives.

To read that they have been offered support by the EU. Private business etc. and basically told them to get stuffed, I mean, how can any of this Governments ministers continue. When you see how they have let so many of us down, surely at some stage it is a resigning matter for most, if not all of them.

Sadly, they have so little empathy and morals, I'd frankly be surprised.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 15 April, 2020, 11:48:08 AM
Thinking of you too, Tankie, although you're clearly a tough old bastard so any concern is probably wasted. 

This is some fecking mess, and I don't think we know the half of what's coming over the next year. 

For my own little corner of the apocalypse, my old man has (mild dose (easy for me to say)) chemo session scheduled for Thursday for the first time since this kicked off, and I'm bricking it - my 77yr-old mam, who is now his sole carer 24-7, doesn't want him to go in because she's convinced he'll get C-19 and bring it home to kill the two of them (his mental state is hopeless, he gets lost every time he goes to the hospital and he's as likely to end up licking the floors as he is washing his hands and keeping his distance - and there's no way they'll let me go in with him), but having screamed at them for weeks to stay isolated, I'm now trying to explain that the situation isn't going to improve any time soon and while he might get away with postponing one session, what about the next, and the next?

I've almost convinced her that we need to be led in his by the oncologist himself, who has to have serious infection-control systems in place if he's still bringing out-patients in, but he's apparently uncontactable 'on annual leave', which I can't help thinking is admin-speak for quarantined or redeployed: what sort of doctor is on his holliers in the middle of this?

It's a good job I don't have much hair left, I'd have it pulled it out by now.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 15 April, 2020, 12:25:38 PM
To read that they have been offered support by the EU. Private business etc. and basically told them to get stuffed, I mean, how can any of this Governments ministers continue. When you see how they have let so many of us down, surely at some stage it is a resigning matter for most, if not all of them.

Have you seen the polls?

As much as I despise the term "mainstream media", it is, almost without exception, failing to hold the government to account on this, preferring to support the main government narrative with some mild criticism around the edges, as if there are occasional supply chain blips, or problems are something all governments are experiencing.

It's quite telling that the government has refused to make any minister available to Channel 4 News for eight days running.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 15 April, 2020, 12:40:08 PM
This is just frightening, horrendous stuff.

The numbers are just terrifying, Shaolin_Monkey.

I fear that the Government are just hoping for some miracle, as the more I read about their handling of the situation, the clearer it becomes that they made an horrendous initial decision, and are now just flailing from disaster to disaster. There is no excuse. They knew it was coming, and they gambled peoples lives.

To read that they have been offered support by the EU. Private business etc. and basically told them to get stuffed, I mean, how can any of this Governments ministers continue. When you see how they have let so many of us down, surely at some stage it is a resigning matter for most, if not all of them.

Sadly, they have so little empathy and morals, I'd frankly be surprised.




That's what you might think - that they wouldn't be able to get away with it, but only half the people seem to be paying attention.  Following taken from the same BBC Have Your Say thread.






Comment number175. Posted byAndreon
2 minutes ago
The “government” has moved past the “containment” stage and is entering the “cover up” stage


Comment number174. Posted byMr Mugwumpon
2 minutes ago
Boris is back, just watch how the death figures now drop with his hand on the tiller. Thank God we do not have socialism making this worse than it need be.




Comment number221. Posted byChopperon
32 minutes ago
?? what a great leader Boris is ?? showing the opposition,the eu & the world how it's done ??




Comment number41. Posted byScubadooon
1 hour ago
Strange to have a bulletin board for this story when so many other important topics and stories have been in the news these last few days. Has it been a deliberate strategy to deny a voice on such things as our German friends givong us 60 ventilators and the govt seemingly deliberately staying out of EU procurement on no less tgan 3 occasions fir PPE? #theyneedusmorethanweneedthem?



: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 15 April, 2020, 12:49:58 PM
Jim / Sheridan,

It is a horrible failure by the media. Surely shaping up to be the greatest scandal in British history, and they meekly line up, one by one, to lob softballs at Ministers, who in most circumstances can't even answer the soft questions competently, or coherently.

When you witness Piers Morgan, who I'm no fan of, tearing apart Ministers every morning on the TV, you have to ask - Are we living in Bizarro world? When the mornings soft news and entertainment show is asking the hard questions, and harrying people for answers, while the rest of the Press are in a state of paralysis... So bloody frustrating.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Old Tankie 15 April, 2020, 01:08:52 PM
Thanks for your concern guys, stay safe everyone and don’t take chances if you can help it.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 15 April, 2020, 01:13:39 PM
Thanks for your concern guys, stay safe everyone and don’t take chances if you can help it.

Tankie, meant to reply to you earlier. Stay safe.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 15 April, 2020, 01:22:17 PM
When you witness Piers Morgan, who I'm no fan of, tearing apart Ministers every morning on the TV, you have to ask - Are we living in Bizarro world?
The thing people forget is Morgan isn’t stupid. He loves to be the guy people hate — but only to a certain extent. He’s a populist too. So this was a piece of highly targeted venom. It showed to me that he could be a great journalist if he so chose to be. He decides otherwise almost all of the time.

As for the Tories, the last poll I saw had them on 54%. Even if the death count is quite high, it’s going to require a miracle with that kind of lead for them not to win the next GE — not least given that the Lib Dems are a busted flush and there’s no-one to replace them. (Labour should be able to flip a bunch of seats in London, and a few in the south, but even now the Lib Dems remain the main alternative to the Tories in a large chunk of the south that Labour will have a hell of a time trying to win.)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 15 April, 2020, 01:35:03 PM
We live in frightening times.

If Corbyn, by some miracle, had been elected, I've no doubt the media would be frothing at the mouth with vitriol if he was handling this situation even half as badly as the Tory Government is.

Have no doubt the Tories will win the next election. It terrifies me that even with this shotshow, they are almost certain to hold onto power.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 15 April, 2020, 02:15:14 PM

A solid election campaign play that seems fully in line with about half of what I read on social media, ....

You know what p***es me off most about social media?  I keep hearing about all of these bat-s*** crazy theories and stories that people keep sharing but I never actually hear any of them.  The best I've managed is reports of Eammon Holmes not really but sort of vaguely denying that he confused people with claims that the link between 5G and Covid-19 might be useful to the government  (which is completely understandable as computers and people can both get 'viruses' so that must be what has been spreading it ...)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 15 April, 2020, 02:51:22 PM
We live in extra care housing, approximately 100 of us, carers in and out all day. We have the virus in the building and we have had deaths but we are not sure what people have died from. There is no panic here, we are just doing our best to survive with the help of great staff.

My thoughts are with you, too, Tankie. Hope you and yours will all be okay.

My sister works in a Nursing Home back here in the Emerald Isle, so I'm always fearful of getting 'that call'. It would appear that they are at least on top of things there for the moment now, though no thanks to the arsehole management running the place. They initially didn't see the need for the provision of PPE, as there was no evidence that anyone in the home had the virus at the time. I strongly urged my Sis that she and her colleagues should insist on being provided with this equipment as, surely it made sense to take all precautions to limit the possibility of being infected in the first place. In any event, it would appear now that all necessary steps and precautions have been taken, full PPE is being provided, and all staff are having their temperature checked twice a day before entering and leaving the building. But given what inept shit-heads the so-called bosses running the place are like - and I know this from talking to her previously - the number of deaths happening in Nursing Homes comes as absolutely no surprise to me. The same dumb-fuck mind-set and refusal to listen is clearly replicated amongst management in other similar settings throughout the country.

Stay safe, Old Tankie and all the best.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 15 April, 2020, 02:58:08 PM
Surely shaping up to be the greatest scandal in British history...

Is it, though?  In addition to almost certainly following Trump's anti-WHO line, I think the whole clusterfuck is going to be successfully spun into a tirade against EU 'Health Policy' (?) and open borders, and how if only Obama Corbyn and the treacherous remoaners hadn't frustrated the Will of the People for so long the the virus-riddled spics and wops could have been held at Calais in a latter-day Battle of Britain, but Boris was forbidden from unleashing the metaphorical 601st Squadron of Sovereignty Regained on Merkel and Barnier's unwashed zombie hordes, not to mention the NHS being short the £350 million a week that Europe stole, and this is the result.

Anyway more dead burdens people now means less future infections, so a stronger re-start for the economy and that's the Conservatives for you, the party of taking hard decisions in order to balance the books.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 15 April, 2020, 03:01:41 PM
Just wanted to wish my best to yourself and your folks as well, Tordels. Cheers and fingers crossed for them both.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 15 April, 2020, 03:05:46 PM
Surely shaping up to be the greatest scandal in British history...

Is it, though?  In addition to almost certainly following Trump's anti-WHO line, I think the whole clusterfuck is going to be successfully spun into a tirade against EU 'Health Policy' (?) and open borders, and how if only Obama Corbyn and the treacherous remoaners hadn't frustrated the Will of the People for so long the the virus-riddled spics and wops could have been held at Calais in a latter-day Battle of Britain, but Boris was forbidden from unleashing the metaphorical 601st Squadron of Sovereignty Regained on Merkel and Barnier's unwashed zombie hordes, not to mention the NHS being short the £350 million a week that Europe stole, and this is the result.

Anyway more dead burdens people now means less future infections, so a stronger re-start for the economy and that's the Conservatives for you, the party of taking hard decisions in order to balance the books.

They surely can't spin this, the dead, the mental health fallout, the long term effects on our Health and social care staff never mind the generation of kids who will grow up in circumstances the likes of which we only ever imagined or were witness to in fiction. At some point, you can't spin, and the hope would be an almighty reckoning for some of this Government. I have been let down before, I probably will again, but I won't forget or forgive the shambles, and those who were part of it, and those who chose to try and defend it.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 15 April, 2020, 03:08:30 PM
Just wanted to wish my best to yourself and your folks as well, Tordels. Cheers and fingers crossed for them both.

Cheers Paddy I don't envy your missus - the nursing home gig is a rough one at the best of times, and these aren't those.

Anyway, just got good news (of a sort - well, I'll take what I can get) on that front: finally got through to someone (although nit the man himself), chemo postponed until June, apparently has been going well enough that a missed session or two is likely to be less of a risk than a visit to Virus Central.  It'll then be handled in the consultant's own office away from the active hospital.  So someone is thinking, at least.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: von Boom 15 April, 2020, 03:10:59 PM
Stay well Tankie.

All the best to you and family, TB. I hope it goes well for you all.

I hope everyone on here is keeping as well as can be. Cheers all.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 15 April, 2020, 03:12:43 PM
Just wanted to wish my best to yourself and your folks as well, Tordels. Cheers and fingers crossed for them both.

Cheers Paddy I don't envy your missus - the nursing home gig is a rough one at the best of times, and these aren't those.

Anyway, just got good news (of a sort - well, I'll take what I can get) on that front: finally got through to someone (although nit the man himself), chemo postponed until June, apparently has been going well enough that a missed session or two is likely to be less of a risk than a visit to Virus Central.  It'll then be handled in the consultant's own office away from the active hospital.  So someone is thinking, at least.

That's great news! Hopefully alleviates some of the stress.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 15 April, 2020, 03:22:16 PM
I won't forget or forgive the shambles, and those who were part of it, and those who chose to try and defend it.

I really hope you're right, Rately, but there seems to be so much room for excuses from international comparisons and marketable blame.  Here in Ireland I hope to feck that it's the final wake-up call for reforming and resourcing our two-tier health service, but having just watched the two traditional parties manoeuvring happily back into bed together I have no optimism on that score.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 15 April, 2020, 03:34:51 PM
I won't forget or forgive the shambles, and those who were part of it, and those who chose to try and defend it.

I really hope you're right, Rately, but there seems to be so much room for excuses from international comparisons and marketable blame.  Here in Ireland I hope to feck that it's the final wake-up call for reforming and resourcing our two-tier health service, but having just watched the two traditional parties manoeuvring happily back into bed together I have no optimism on that score.

Couldn't agree with you more, lad. The Assembly needs a good boot up the hole.

Robin Swann just told the Assembly that the British Government did not make him aware of the European Procurement Scheme for PPE for frontline medical staff. Someone asked if he would have used it, and he said he would seek help from all sources.

Disgraceful. I think long past time NI approach the EU, and Unionist / Loyalist anger etc be damned, because lives are more important than squabbling over who we get help from, whether it be the EU or the British Army.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 15 April, 2020, 03:36:02 PM
Glad to hear your good news, Tordelback. Cheers for now.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 15 April, 2020, 03:36:54 PM
They will spin it. The right-wing press is already doubling down on the heroic Boris Johnson, and relegating the death count to a subhead, if it’s even mentioned. The scandal is being ignored, as media parrots the UK government’s line that the NHS is responsible for the problems in privatised care homes (?!). We’re in a properly fucked state now AND in the future at this rate.

And be mindful the Tories now have a massive amount of wiggle room. They are polling 54% — with Labour on ~29 and the Lib Dems basically dead. For anything other than a Tory majority, we are going to need the kind of political shift that has never been seen in modern history, which will at the very least require the non-Con/BXP/DUP parties allying to some extent, the Lib Dems to regain some electoral heft, and probably an admission no-one’s getting their claws into the SNP’s Scottish seats.

Clearly, we aren’t living in normal times. If we were, this government would have probably already fallen.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 15 April, 2020, 03:48:01 PM
They will spin it. The right-wing press is already doubling down on the heroic Boris Johnson, and relegating the death count to a subhead, if it’s even mentioned.

You sure about that?  Everything I'm seeing at the moment is exactly the opposite.  There seems a growing awareness of the discrepancy between hospital death rates and ONS figures (if you want to be really terrified, visit the ONS website and have a gander!).  Even Piers Morgan and LBC are getting in on the act.

The current emerging picture is that actually the government doesn't have a Scooby about the current state of the pandemic.  The speed with which they tried to shut down Starmer's suggestion that it might be some idea of how to get out of this mess is probably the best indication of current government 'thinking' about what is going on.

Remember how we once laughed at the idea of a Johnson led government?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Bolt-01 15 April, 2020, 03:56:08 PM
Speaking as someone who actually works with NHS stats - nobody really knows what is going on. The reporting is being revised almost daily leading to extremely limited comparisons being possible.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 15 April, 2020, 06:32:12 PM
It's crazy isn't it.  I mean the UK is supposed to be one of the more advanced nations of the world (and I use that word highly advisedly!).  It is supposedly highly technocratic and data driven.  More than anything though this situation has revealed the reality of this myth.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 15 April, 2020, 06:56:40 PM
Confirmation of what I spoke of in an earlier post.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/aine-kennystaff-say-nursing-homes-did-too-little-too-late-994039.html

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 15 April, 2020, 08:11:59 PM
It is supposedly highly technocratic and data driven.  More than anything though this situation has revealed the reality of this myth.
It wasn’t a myth. This was the case. Then ideologues keen on bluster and bullshit above everything else got their hands on the steering wheel.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 16 April, 2020, 02:01:39 PM
An interesting perspective, helpful advice and words of wisdom from NASA Astronaut Jessica Meir.

 https://www.space.com/stephen-colbert-calls-space-station-astronaut-jessica-meir.html?utm_source=notification

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 16 April, 2020, 02:06:02 PM
Much needed public inquiry into government handling of Coronavirus, especially considering the projected 49,000 deaths in the U.K. (Estimated at least 18,000 to date not inc. care homes).

Takes thirty seconds to sign.

Better than sitting on your hands.


https://www.marchforchange.uk/coronavirus_inquiry
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 16 April, 2020, 03:54:41 PM
...the projected 49,000 deaths in the U.K...

So given the uncertainties concerning community and care home deaths that's heading towards twice the deaths of the entire Blitz. And that's with current lockdown measures. Almost unimaginable suffering, but what sort of national myth will it foster in today's toddlers?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 16 April, 2020, 04:50:56 PM
It is supposedly highly technocratic and data driven.  More than anything though this situation has revealed the reality of this myth.
It wasn’t a myth. This was the case. Then ideologues keen on bluster and bullshit above everything else got their hands on the steering wheel.

Fair point.  This is one of the reasons why I've been so dubious about the "we're just following the science" blather.  Let's face it, 5 minutes on Cummings' blog is enough to show how twisted the science can get in his hands.  The Climate-change-denial brigade is slowly starting to make a lot more sense in terms of their ability to take sensible scientific work and turn it into something surreal!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 16 April, 2020, 05:28:30 PM
Absolute genius!

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/martyn-turner-1.4229854
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 17 April, 2020, 01:24:35 AM
...the projected 49,000 deaths in the U.K...

So given the uncertainties concerning community and care home deaths that's heading towards twice the deaths of the entire Blitz. And that's with current lockdown measures. Almost unimaginable suffering, but what sort of national myth will it foster in today's toddlers?

Good question - the smogs in the 1950s led to the Clean Air Acts.  Except more people die from pollution each year now but barely any fuss is made of it.  So as long as people still believe the Blitz killed more people than die this year (whatever the actual facts are) then there'll be no repurcussions.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 17 April, 2020, 11:17:22 AM
If I’m reading this right, this is confirmation that doctors have been asked to only record those tested while alive as dying from COVID-19, and that untested deaths be left untested, and recorded as something different, such as pneumonia.

https://goodlawproject.org/covid-19-deaths/

Here’s a copy of the guidance, from a link in the webpage:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12msB_73qgmY2ZQwsUvkPyyEsFxo4kYNc/view?usp=drivesdk
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Eamonn Clarke 17 April, 2020, 07:58:08 PM
The whole subject of verification of death, certification, and cremation forms is complex and has been subject to rapidly changing interpretation of the Coronavirus act changes.

In Norfolk the coroner has issued clear guidance that Covid 19 is acceptable as a cause of death even without testing, which we largely don’t have in general practice. What coroners don’t like is use of the word “probable” particularly in part 1a of the MCCD. Coroners quite rightly demand certainty from doctors. So you might put pneumonia as 1a secondary to probable Covid 19 as 1b.

That’s Norfolk though and what has happened is that different regions have issued their own interpretation/guidance based on their reading of some understandably hasty legislation. I have seen the letter that the British Medical Association has written to the under secretary for health asking for clarity and national rather than regional guidance on this issue. It will surprise no-one on this forum to learn that there has been no reply from the vacuum at the heart of our elected government.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 18 April, 2020, 01:35:40 PM
Thanks for the clarification Eamonn.

If you’ve been struggling to follow the ventilator fiasco, this thread from Peter Foster, the Public Policy Editor at the FT, is a fascinating but horrifying read:

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1251434219139665920?s=21
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 18 April, 2020, 02:12:54 PM
In short:

We know better!
*shitstorm ensues*
*govt pivots*
*govt blames companies that had worked to govt’s own guidance*
We had always been at war with Eastasia!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 18 April, 2020, 03:29:40 PM
Dept of Health confirms another 880 CV19 deaths in the UK, taking the total over 15,000.

Remember that these numbers don’t include care home deaths or people who died at home. In the European countries where they have recorded this data, hospital/elsewhere deaths run about 50/50, so there’s probably not much change out of 30,000 in the real figure.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 19 April, 2020, 09:54:41 AM
Here’s a non-paywall version of the recent Times article describing the ‘lost’ 38 days.

We’ve covered a lot of this in this very forum, but it’s good to have it in one place, and is still a blood-chilling read:

https://archive.is/20200418182037/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/coronavirus-38-days-when-britain-sleepwalked-into-disaster-hq3b9tlgh
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 19 April, 2020, 10:49:41 AM
Some positive news, where we can all take action!

HELP KINGS COLLEGE LONDON TRACK THE VIRUS!

Just because the government is slow in tracking this damn virus, doesn’t mean the rest of us have to be.

Scientists agree that data is the most important tool in tackling the pandemic. As the government is doing sod all about collecting data, how about helping King’s College collect it instead?

They’ve got 2.3 million contributors already. It takes one minute a day - just follow this link!!


https://covid.joinzoe.com/
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 19 April, 2020, 03:23:51 PM
A superb thread from Dr John Cook, who uses the same tools to analyse the psychology of COVID-19 science denial as he does on climate science denial.

A fascinating read, and an inoculation against the fallacious arguments going around at the moment.

https://twitter.com/johnfocook/status/1251871023370305536?s=21
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Mardroid 19 April, 2020, 03:26:20 PM
Just found out our work laptops are ready for pick-up tomorrow so we can work from home! We can take a monitor and a mouse too.

Security is to be informed in case we appear to be looting.  :lol:
Lucky you - we had to provide our own mouses / mice!

Yes, they’ve been good to us that way. I didn’t actually take an extra screen in the end since I don’t have my own transport*. My rucksack just wouldn’t accommodate it. Not even Bagman**. I also didn’t take a mouse since I have one at home. I used a HDMI cable to link my laptop to my TV and use that instead. It worked pretty well.

Oh, after one day of home work, they put us on Furlough leave, so basically I’m on fully paid holiday. I was informed recently we have another 3 weeks, and they reckon after that we’ll likely be working from home for much of the rest of this year... not that I mind that.


* A kick scooter doesn’t count in these circumstances.

** He has proven very useful for shopping during this period. Since I foot it when I shop, I need to rely on my rucksacks, Bagman and, um, Regular-Floppy-Sack-Man***. A couple of times I’ve ended up using two if there are a few things, one on my chest one on my back. I must look a right wally walking down the road like that. We have a couple of other people with cars who pick up stuff for us with their own shopping, (they keep a safe distance when dropping it off) which is very helpful, but don’t want to rely on that all the time. Besides it’s an excuse for me to go out. (I’m careful. I’m talking once or twice a week, and I try to keep my distance from others.)

*** He is strictly utilitarian but quite a trooper in his own way.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Mardroid 19 April, 2020, 03:35:19 PM
Just found out our work laptops are ready for pick-up tomorrow so we can work from home! We can take a monitor and a mouse too.

Security is to be informed in case we appear to be looting.  :lol:
Surely there can be no confusion.  :)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FJUlzOb1v4tw%2Fhqdefault.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)

Heh. While I was there a security guard accompanied me the whole time. He was a nice friendly guy and he told me that it was just to check what I took to note down, but he was there the whole time and didn’t write anything.

I don’t blame him personally as I know he was just following instructions, but it was a bit much and made me rush more than I’d have liked. Oh and he didn’t keep to the 2 metres rule either, even helping me open my sack so I could fit the laptop in. Nice of him, but a bit too nice under the circumstances, I’d think you’d agree. I’d have managed.

I’m not that worried for myself as I reckon I’d cope with the virus okay, but I live with two people in the vulnerable category, so I was a little bemused.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Mardroid 19 April, 2020, 03:39:00 PM
Anyone working from home, please take care to:

- Not overdo hours. Make a schedule that’s close to your standard one
- Take regular breaks
- Where possible, get a decent chair — sit at a dining chair and your back and bum will hate you

I’ve been using an old dining room chair and it is a bit hard on the botty. Literally. I invested in a nice office chair which arrived last week. Unfortunately they forgot to pack the spring washers, so I’ve another delivery to wait for, but the company were quick to respond.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 19 April, 2020, 04:04:12 PM
Just a quick aside, and in no way COVID-19 related:

Since I foot it when I shop, I need to rely on my rucksacks, Bagman and, um, Regular-Floppy-Sack-Man***

Do you leave the grenades on Bagman? Just wondered if it might help with the social distancing...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 19 April, 2020, 04:24:56 PM
How teachers feel. (https://www.tiktok.com/@makeshift.macaroni/video/6811322581883440390)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 19 April, 2020, 05:08:22 PM
How everyone feels, surely.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Mardroid 19 April, 2020, 05:30:51 PM
Just a quick aside, and in no way COVID-19 related:

Since I foot it when I shop, I need to rely on my rucksacks, Bagman and, um, Regular-Floppy-Sack-Man***

Do you leave the grenades on Bagman? Just wondered if it might help with the social distancing...

Heh! There’s an idea...

No, Egg-man and Susan* currently reside in one of my clothes drawers.

* I was thinking of calling the second grenade ‘Colin’ but it occurred to me, why should all my accoutrements be male?  I was thinking of going for an egg or a bomb based pun but I think I’ll stick with ‘Susan’. Despite her explosive nature when primed, she’s a shy girl at heart who doesn’t like to come out of her shell.

Just don’t ask me which is which.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 19 April, 2020, 06:12:57 PM
I was extremely relieved to hear back, from my oldest and dearest friend of over forty years - and resident in Japan for a long time now - that he and his family are all okay. He told me that the government over there has declared a state of emergency but aside from that, not much else. (Apparently, the prime minister, Shinzo Abe has given instructions that two face masks will be issued per family. So if your family is limited to just two members then you're sorted. My friend informed me that this announcement was made almost a month ago and that the masks are expected at any time.)

To say that I am worried for my friend and his family is an understatement.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/japan-facing-catastrophe-in-virus-fight-994752.html



: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 19 April, 2020, 06:14:50 PM

** He has proven very useful for shopping during this period. Since I foot it when I shop, I need to rely on my rucksacks, Bagman and, um, Regular-Floppy-Sack-Man***. A couple of times I’ve ended up using two if there are a few things, one on my chest one on my back. I must look a right wally walking down the road like that.
Sounds like the Nort G.I.s in their base on the moon (or nu-earth).  I had a look to see if I could see reference pictures online, but having the director of Moon associated with the Rogue Trooper film make it a tad difficult to find...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 19 April, 2020, 07:07:37 PM
Ah, you're thinking of the Colonel Kovert mission circa Prog 351.  ["Walking on the Moon" cover tagline].  Art by Cam Kennedy.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 20 April, 2020, 12:55:52 PM
‪U.K. folk -  Important reminder: ‬

‪You can help Kings College London track and slow the virus!‬

‪Follow the link, download an app, and just log in once a day for a quick 30 second update on how you’re feeling.‬

‪Go here:‬

‪https://covid.joinzoe.com/‬
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sintec 20 April, 2020, 04:56:37 PM
Some useful info on the source of some conspiracy nonsense I've been seeing trapsed around on other social media; A Toxic ‘Infodemic’: The Viral Spread Of COVID-19 Conspiracy Theories (http://"https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/coronavirus-conspiracy-theories-social-media_n_5e83d701c5b6a1bb764f6d3b?ri18n=true&guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9jb25zZW50LnlhaG9vLmNvbS9jb2xsZWN0Q29uc2VudD9zZXNzaW9uSWQ9M19jYy1zZXNzaW9uXzhjMzdmZTA0LTIzZmEtNGQyMS04YzY5LTMzYWE5YzQ1MjVjNiZsYW5nPWVuLXVzJmlubGluZT1mYWxzZQ&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAFzUXIq33ZsPb-wXuM-FcyEbm8k0fvib9HFIUjnYLBILkOdovvykpOjx5v-UjqkT7mclQ3ZmOL_kDsgKbAVONEHOHOGErbcyblCtZJpmrMA1lZ2eHp929Q5hbLwYV0p4px3THz1JwIGgLTQxpQ-n9iW4dMkhVoXJ52z2XhrUOPi2")

Seems some people don't realise that an osteopath may not be the best source for advice on the spread of infections. Although tbf the individual I encountered spouting this nonsense felt that QAnon was a better source of info that The Lancet so I'm not sure there's any helping them tbh.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) 20 April, 2020, 06:41:44 PM
Sintec, that link isnt working- at least for me.

SBT
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sintec 20 April, 2020, 06:43:58 PM
Sintec, that link isnt working- at least for me.

SBT

oops think I screwed up my URL tag - this one worked for me in the preview hopefully good for others too

A Toxic ‘Infodemic’: The Viral Spread Of COVID-19 Conspiracy Theories | HuffPost UK (https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/coronavirus-conspiracy-theories-social-media_n_5e83d701c5b6a1bb764f6d3b?ri18n=true&guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9jb25zZW50LnlhaG9vLmNvbS9jb2xsZWN0Q29uc2VudD9zZXNzaW9uSWQ9M19jYy1zZXNzaW9uXzhjMzdmZTA0LTIzZmEtNGQyMS04YzY5LTMzYWE5YzQ1MjVjNiZsYW5nPWVuLXVzJmlubGluZT1mYWxzZQ&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAFzUXIq33ZsPb-wXuM-FcyEbm8k0fvib9HFIUjnYLBILkOdovvykpOjx5v-UjqkT7mclQ3ZmOL_kDsgKbAVONEHOHOGErbcyblCtZJpmrMA1lZ2eHp929Q5hbLwYV0p4px3THz1JwIGgLTQxpQ-n9iW4dMkhVoXJ52z2XhrUOPi2)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) 20 April, 2020, 07:22:45 PM
Brilliant, yep that's good now.

I feel like I'mfighting a running battle with people I know in all walks of life over ridiculous conspiracy crap regarding C19. It's like everybody has completely taken leave of heir senses, emptied their heads and is prepared to believe whatever nonsense reinforces their very personal fears.

I had it today with my mum and dad- my father, 83, is refusing to self isolate. Despite my mother having copd, half a lung and receiving a letter from her hero Boris pleading her to stay home, my dad doesnt see the need to protect her. Hes "a trained soldier", you see. When he was in the army, he received injections and was told by the medic "you boys getting these jabs, you'll never get ill". Despite that being 64 years ago and the intervening years bringing cancer, rheumatoid arthritis and continual shits (thanks for that, dad) he somehow sticks by this anonymous cretinous army doctor's word. "I'm still alive" he says, "so he was right".

Sorry, one for the "life sucks" thread really.

SBT
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: MacabreMagpie 20 April, 2020, 08:07:40 PM
Brilliant, yep that's good now.

I feel like I'mfighting a running battle with people I know in all walks of life over ridiculous conspiracy crap regarding C19. It's like everybody has completely taken leave of heir senses, emptied their heads and is prepared to believe whatever nonsense reinforces their very personal fears.

I had it today with my mum and dad- my father, 83, is refusing to self isolate. Despite my mother having copd, half a lung and receiving a letter from her hero Boris pleading her to stay home, my dad doesnt see the need to protect her. Hes "a trained soldier", you see. When he was in the army, he received injections and was told by the medic "you boys getting these jabs, you'll never get ill". Despite that being 64 years ago and the intervening years bringing cancer, rheumatoid arthritis and continual shits (thanks for that, dad) he somehow sticks by this anonymous cretinous army doctor's word. "I'm still alive" he says, "so he was right".

Sorry, one for the "life sucks" thread really.

SBT

Sorry mate. I've tried to console myself on occasions when the overwhelming stress and fear of it all gets to me that my parents and loved ones are about as safe as they can be given the circumstances, when I've heard of people with folks who aren't listening to the advice or are stranded abroad. I can't imagine how stressful that must be.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 20 April, 2020, 08:15:57 PM
Sorry to hear of your troubles, SBT. It's little consolation, I know, but you've done what you could and are deserving of respect for that. Take care.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 20 April, 2020, 08:18:32 PM
With government trying to do a damage-control PR job after the brutal expose from the Sunday Times, here’s the Byeline Times exposing EVEN MORE disaster from Boris and his lot.


https://bylinetimes.com/2020/04/20/weekly-update-20-april-a-national-scandal-timeline-of-the-uk-governments-response-to-the-coronavirus-crisis/
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 20 April, 2020, 08:44:37 PM
The British government, via the Department of Health and Social Care, has been stealing the identities of NHS staff to create social media accounts in order to spread fake science supporting Johnson's "herd immunity" claims. (https://twitter.com/jdpoc/status/1252266724449230848)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 20 April, 2020, 08:52:10 PM
Fuck me.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 20 April, 2020, 09:02:56 PM
Looks like they already have.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 20 April, 2020, 11:54:28 PM
Even after EVERTHING, I'm struggling to beIieve this story is what it seems: it's like the denouement of a Robert Harris alternate history thriller. I'm so sick of saying this, but if it can be proven without room for doubt, that.must be the end of this UK government. And if not, the absolute end of your current iteration of democracy.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 21 April, 2020, 01:36:32 AM
Even after EVERTHING, I'm struggling to beIieve this story is what it seems: it's like the denouement of a Robert Harris alternate history thriller. I'm so sick of saying this, but if it can be proven without room for doubt, that.must be the end of this UK government. And if not, the absolute end of your current iteration of democracy.

The current iteration of democracy ended with the EU vote and Cambridge Analytica. We’re well and truly through the looking glass now.

Time will tell on this one, but it’s very hard to trust a government where:

“88% (5,952) of the party's most widely promoted ads [during the election] either featured claims which had been flagged by independent fact-checking organisations (including BBC Reality Check) as not correct or not entirely correct.”

(For contrast Labour inaccuracies were at about 7%).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50726500
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 21 April, 2020, 03:10:10 AM
They'll just gaslight their way out of this: it didn't happen, or if that doesn't work, it was one man who no longer works for the party behind it all - also known as the "BBC doesn't need to be reformed as the people responsible have moved on" defence.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 21 April, 2020, 07:52:07 AM
Completely agree about CA, incessant bald-faced lies and elaborate deniability etc, but if the electorate will accept, ignore, excuse or forgive this, then there is no functioning democracy, or hope of same.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 21 April, 2020, 08:54:35 AM
I can’t help wonder if it is all part of an elaborate scheme of hypernormalisation to pit one against another, keeping society and politics off balance -  creating different factions based on different ideologies, and get them to war it out with one another via social media, normal media, or actual protests -  claim/counterclaim, push/pull, science/ideology etc etc - while in the background the powers that be who set it all in motion get on with doing what the hell they want.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperNormalisation
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 21 April, 2020, 09:50:37 AM
The US appears to be a fantastic example of the above right now.

Different states are going different things, Trump flies in the face of scientific advice, and different groups driven by social media cry either “stay at home” or “protect your fundamental rights!” or “march on the governors house” or even “COVID-19 IS A LIE”.

It all appears to be heading towards a bloody civil war, while the death toll from the virus in the US is at 40,000 and rising.

Let’s face it, outside of a nuclear war, Putin couldn’t have destabilised the US more.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/us-lockdown-backlash-sees-gun-toting-extremists-warn-of-bloody-revolution-amid-fears-of-all-out-war/ar-BB12WQaA?ocid=spartanntp

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Enigmatic Dr X 21 April, 2020, 10:49:44 AM
If you were an unscrupulous superpower with great financial strength.

And if you released a contagious but low fatality novel virus.

And if you and your cronies shorted the markets.

You could make a lot of money while destroying rival economies.

Just saying.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 21 April, 2020, 10:53:36 AM
I would suggest that the virus is entirely natural, and that the unscrupulous superpower has been opportunistic.

The 'superpower' luckily already has the things in place to cause massive upheaval across the globe through misinformation, as evidenced by the EU referendum, Trump getting in etc etc.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 21 April, 2020, 11:09:34 AM
The only problem with the 'deliberately created' theory is why China would start things off in its own territory, even allowing that it could use its vast totalitarian reources to control spread internally once the virus has spread globally. It's not like it would work to divert blame, as we have seen.

China could easily have got the ball rolling elsewhere and further advantaged its economy - no-one would have been surprised to see an instant hardening of its borders in response to an exernal outbreak.

EDIT: Wait, I'm being fecking thick. You're not pointing the finger at China, are you. The problem with the Putin scenario is how would you ever tell.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 21 April, 2020, 11:46:40 AM
I'm not an admin, but I will just remind everybody of the following from earlier in the thread...

I'm going to step in at this point and provide a little guidance on this thread.

Anyone posting misinformation, conspiracy theories, or scare-stories from dodgy sources will have their posts removed and bans may be handed out for repeat offenders. If you don't see where the line is drawn by my previous sentence, don't post.

A lot of people are scared and under extraordinary stress, this is not the time to spread misinformation that will stoke panic or fear. Please practice a little empathy and think about the safety and well-being of other human beings.


Emboldened for emphasis — IP
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 21 April, 2020, 12:00:47 PM
U.K. folk -  Important reminder:

You can help Kings College London track and slow the virus!

Follow the link, download an app, and just log in once a day for a quick 30 second update on how you’re feeling.

Go here:


https://covid.joinzoe.com/
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 21 April, 2020, 12:15:35 PM
I'm not an admin, but I will just remind everybody of the following from earlier in the thread...


Cheers for the reminder, Sheridan!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 21 April, 2020, 02:54:19 PM
I'm not an admin, but I will just remind everybody of the following from earlier in the thread...


Cheers for the reminder, Sheridan!

Aye, fair enough!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 21 April, 2020, 04:43:43 PM
(I like a conspiracy theory as much as the next person, but also like people not to be temp-banned).
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Enigmatic Dr X 21 April, 2020, 05:01:22 PM
I'm not an admin, but I will just remind everybody of the following from earlier in the thread...

I'm going to step in at this point and provide a little guidance on this thread.

Anyone posting misinformation, conspiracy theories, or scare-stories from dodgy sources will have their posts removed and bans may be handed out for repeat offenders. If you don't see where the line is drawn by my previous sentence, don't post.

A lot of people are scared and under extraordinary stress, this is not the time to spread misinformation that will stoke panic or fear. Please practice a little empathy and think about the safety and well-being of other human beings.


Emboldened for emphasis — IP


Sorry

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 22 April, 2020, 03:32:47 PM
This FT analysis of available data is staggering.

So a more likely CURRENT figure for U.K. deaths is about 40,000. And we’re not moving down yet.

If we have the same number of deaths on the way down as the way up, we could be looking at 80,000 deaths by the time we’re through the first wave.

And don’t forget there could be as many as ten waves.

https://www.ft.com/content/67e6a4ee-3d05-43bc-ba03-e239799fa6ab
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 25 April, 2020, 02:00:07 AM
What are the chances of there being another Dominic Cummings who happens to be a member of the SAGE council of boffins that the UK cabinet got its scientific advice from regarding the response to C-19? (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/revealed-dominic-cummings-on-secret-scientific-advisory-group-for-covid-19?CMP=share_btn_tw)  What a coincidence.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 25 April, 2020, 03:42:56 AM
It's the equivalent of something like Donald Trump giving out medical advice!

---

In the article "Number 10" get into some fantastic double-think with their argument that being at and engaging in a group's meeting don't amount to being in the group.  Uh-huh.

“It is not true that Mr Cummings or Dr Warner are ‘on’ or members of Sage. [They] have attended some Sage meetings ... they ask questions or offer help when scientists mention problems in Whitehall,” a No 10 spokesman said.

No undue influence, then. Just "asking" and "offering". And we can all trust Dominic Cummings to remain agenda-free and not try to control things.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JOE SOAP 25 April, 2020, 11:51:30 AM
We’ve known he’s part of SAGE since the Sunday Times reported it several weeks ago.

Just in case anyone was uncertain what actual honest-to-God evil looks like, here's a snippet from today's Sunday Times by Tim Shipman, their political editor:

The final paragraph implies worse.

(https://i.imgur.com/1EcGSn6.jpg)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 25 April, 2020, 12:20:19 PM
The Guardian is running it as an "exclusive", and it only seems to have blown up on Twitter right now, so it's possible that we just didn't notice at the time what other things.  Or there wasn't any other catastrophe going on to make us scared and/or angry so they're whipping one up for us to keep us amused during lockdown, which is very considerate of them.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 25 April, 2020, 12:59:55 PM
It's the equivalent of something like Donald Trump giving out medical advice!

---

In the article "Number 10" get into some fantastic double-think with their argument that being at and engaging in a group's meeting don't amount to being in the group.  Uh-huh.

“It is not true that Mr Cummings or Dr Warner are ‘on’ or members of Sage. [They] have attended some Sage meetings ... they ask questions or offer help when scientists mention problems in Whitehall,” a No 10 spokesman said.

No undue influence, then. Just "asking" and "offering". And we can all trust Dominic Cummings to remain agenda-free and not try to control things.


(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRCqn_vt_4M6eAqEASV4zXVHSj6ueNAwWKqMxakIi4jp4Ed8zzu)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: MacabreMagpie 26 April, 2020, 08:33:47 AM
That thing about the fake NHS accounts, the guy making the claim (who has declined to share his workings) has a dodgy track record with providing evidence for such things.

“His was the first account we were able to find that shared a false quote that went viral during the 2019 election campaign. The quote (in a now-deleted tweet, still available on the Internet Archive) was claimed to be from the leaked US-UK trade documents, and supposedly said that the US reserved the right to “withdraw all trade” if the UK did not agree to discussions about “the sale of all assets within and partnered with the National Health Service”.

No such quote appeared in the leaked text. When asked by a Twitter user where the quote appeared, Mr O’Connell gave a page reference that did not exist in any of the documents.”

https://fullfact.org/online/evidence-network-fake-nhs-tweets/
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 26 April, 2020, 10:53:14 AM



Another essential report COVID report, this time from the following:

Robert Hockett - Professor of Law at Cornell Law School in Ithaca, New York;

Helen Ward - Prof Infectious Disease Epidemiology, Director of Education, Imperial School of Public Health

Michael Jacobs -  director of the Commission on Economic Justice at the Institute for Public Policy Research and a visiting professor in the Department of Political Science and School of Public Policy, University College London.

Nisreen Alwan - Assoc. Prof. Epidemiology Public Health, University of Southampton

Topics discussed:

Exit strategies from lockdown, lack thereof
Test, trace, quarantine - absolute need for
Economy and public health
Economy and climate crisis
Government policy and failures thereof
Economic impact
Mortality rates
Huge risks to U.K. healthcare workers



https://youtu.be/KN0K0dgLwYE
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 26 April, 2020, 05:25:44 PM
That thing about the fake NHS accounts, the guy making the claim (who has declined to share his workings) has a dodgy track record with providing evidence for such things.

There are questions to be asked about the source, but at the very least I'd expect most newspapers to be running stories about the far left fake news factory by now.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 27 April, 2020, 10:00:24 AM
Laying some blocks at home yesterday, a task I am consistently hopeless at, and my 13yr-old appears and starts giving teenage knowitall advice. I try to tune him out and focus on why the mortar filets keep slumping, and only gradually realise that the advice is the good kind.

He takes over mortar mixing duties, gets the consistency spot-on and is swiftly promoted to joints and pointing. We get it done.

We establish that he learnt these skills from my incredibly handy father-in-law who was doing up a house last summer when reluctantly pressed into childcare. I knew the lad was useful, I've successfully used him as a cleaner and removal man myself, but I'd assumed his grandad had had him filling the skip, holding the other end of things and making the tea - but apparently bricklaying featured heavily, along with pouring concrete, sanding, drilling and grinding.

This is really great, I opined, we'll have to get you back working with grandad this summer, you've learnt things it's taken me 50 years to pick up on my own (my own Dad couldn't wire a plug, and to my knowledge has never successfully put up a shelf).

I'd love to, he replied, but it's not going to happen, is it. Not this summer and not the next.

That really brought it home to me. We've been keeping the parents and in-laws successfully cocooned this past month, but it's so difficult to imagine what an end to that situation looks like.

Even if we are successful in keeping the oldies alive, as my son observed, there's no way a teenager is going to be spending time with his mid-70s diabetic grandad any time soon. And that time is very finite: I never knew either of my grandads, they and one of my grandmothers were dead by the time I was 3. It's been a real source of joy to see my kids have real relationships with all 4 of theirs, and now to see skills and interests passed on in a meaningful way is amazing.

What this is costing us can't be measured in death stats and economic collapse alone.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 27 April, 2020, 10:21:29 AM
Mini-G was at her grandparents’ two days a week last summer. She loved it. They took her to all sorts of things, and she got her first pony ride, and her first time on a boat. This summer, I imagine it’ll be calls over Skype. It really hits home when it comes to kids.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 27 April, 2020, 07:34:11 PM
What this is costing us can't be measured in death stats and economic collapse alone.

Fuck!

I mean, that has to be the most astoundingly astute observation of the last six weeks.    :'(
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 28 April, 2020, 05:38:30 PM
Royal Mail buckles. No more Saturday Progs for the foreseeable future: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-royal-mail-scraps-saturday-21940534
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 28 April, 2020, 07:14:10 PM
Isn't package delivery the part-privatized bit of RM?  Only I note that would mean that the part of the service that likely doesn't have a notable union presence is the part that's still being forced to work on Saturdays.

Anecdotally speaking of unions: one of my brothers works for the DWP, and despite having zero interest in politics - in Northern Ireland, this takes some doing - he and his colleagues have begun willingly attending impromptu union meetings and unironically using the phrases "bootlicker" and "class traitor" to describe the small number of people in their office trying to force management to return to regular working hours and conditions.  Despite being a commie who likes the idea of worker solidarity, for some reason I just find this really funny in the year 2020.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Colin Zeal 30 April, 2020, 09:54:04 PM
Royal Mail buckles. No more Saturday Progs for the foreseeable future: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-royal-mail-scraps-saturday-21940534

Only if this goes ahead and that isn't a definite. The CWU is opposing it and will be considering all options including strike action. The possible start date is 16th May and we have been told by the union that we will not be supporting the proposed changes. So Saturday progs should still be going ahead.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 01 May, 2020, 05:47:38 AM
I find the proposal by RM deeply concerning on a number of levels.  If they can get it through it could be proof of concept that a five day delivery is acceptable to people and can be maintained.  This may well be the thin end of the wedge as there has long been subtle agitation to adjust the universal delivery mandate to more 'economically viable' (profitable) approaches.  It needs to be watched closely and opposed as much as possible.

This is before we take into account the essential nature of delivery services at this time.  With so many restrictions at present, the ability to be able to physically move items from one place to another safely and securely is crucial.  Personally I trust the likes of Nodel, DPD, Herpes and the other private delivery services about as much as Johnson, based on past experiences.  Okay Royal Mail isn't perfect but I have not had half the difficulty those other companies have given me in the past.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 01 May, 2020, 10:43:39 AM
  Personally I trust the likes of Nodel, DPD, Herpes and the other private delivery services about as much as Johnson, based on past experiences.  Okay Royal Mail isn't perfect but I have not had half the difficulty those other companies have given me in the past.

Wait...what now...there's a delivery service called Herpes???!!!   :o

Interestingly enough, An Post - the equivalent of Royal Mail here in the Emerald Isle - have not, to the best of my knowledge at least, had Saturday deliveries for as long as I can remember, if ever. (Of course, I stand to be corrected on this, but I can only ever recall Monday to Friday postal deliveries in this country.)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 01 May, 2020, 11:22:58 AM
  Personally I trust the likes of Nodel, DPD, Herpes and the other private delivery services about as much as Johnson, based on past experiences.  Okay Royal Mail isn't perfect but I have not had half the difficulty those other companies have given me in the past.

Wait...what now...there's a delivery service called Herpes???!!!   :o

Nah - it's Hermes, though Herpes would be a more pleasant experience.

It used to be that Saturday deliveries were very rare - I certainly don't remember any when I was a kid.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Enigmatic Dr X 01 May, 2020, 02:20:28 PM
Mrs X has just been tested!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JOE SOAP 01 May, 2020, 02:21:37 PM
Interestingly enough, An Post - the equivalent of Royal Mail here in the Emerald Isle - have not, to the best of my knowledge at least, had Saturday deliveries for as long as I can remember, if ever. (Of course, I stand to be corrected on this, but I can only ever recall Monday to Friday postal deliveries in this country.)

There are weekend deliveries at Christmas time.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 01 May, 2020, 02:47:06 PM
Mrs X has just been tested!

Best of luck to her and fingers crossed, Dr X.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 01 May, 2020, 03:27:02 PM
Dr X, wishing you and yours all the best.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Rately 01 May, 2020, 03:28:19 PM
Open Letter to UK Government: “Do you want our PPE or not?”

https://medium.com/@change.orgUK/open-letter-to-uk-government-do-you-want-our-ppe-or-not-fce832e6e37a
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 01 May, 2020, 05:04:30 PM
Mrs X has just been tested!

Best of luck, lad.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: von Boom 01 May, 2020, 08:28:03 PM
Fingers crossed for you and your missus, Dr. X.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Doctor Alt 8 02 May, 2020, 01:36:55 AM

Crossed fingers from me to.


Is it just my area or are people getting more lax with their social distancing? The security staff at the supermarkets are letting more people in instead of the one in one out policy. This means that the shops are more crowded and its difficult to maintain the proper distance. Some queeres are not keeping away from others... people are stopping and chatting to each other.  No one seems to care to stop them and I am sure that there are more cars on the road.

But the danger isn't over... far from it.. We are heading for a second wave at this rate... And the country can't afford it an not in just a financial way.

 :(
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 02 May, 2020, 11:34:38 AM
Good luck from me too!

My partner’s brother was tested a fortnight ago, as he thought he’d caught it from one of the ‘supported adults’ homes he works in. Thankfully it came back negative.

I wasn’t sure where best to post this, but seeing as it is COVID, PPE, and NHS related, I’m leaving it here. Such dark humour, but just nails the cognitive dissonance currently rife throughout the U.K.

https://www.facebook.com/228085561008026/posts/848031589013417/?vh=e


YouTube version here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iprf9n5ht14
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Robin Low 02 May, 2020, 11:36:15 AM
Is it just my area or are people getting more lax with their social distancing? The security staff at the supermarkets are letting more people in instead of the one in one out policy. This means that the shops are more crowded and its difficult to maintain the proper distance. Some queeres are not keeping away from others... people are stopping and chatting to each other.  No one seems to care to stop them and I am sure that there are more cars on the road.

I'm thinking the same. Many people are still being sensible, I can see plenty who are not.

I hate to say it as someone due to turn 50 this year but who feels 20-something inside (well, maybe 30-something), but younger people seem to be the worst offenders.

Regards,

Robin
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Richard 02 May, 2020, 11:40:26 AM
20% of negative test results are wrong, so if you had a reason to suspect you had covid-19 then you should continue to act as if you have it.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 02 May, 2020, 11:42:51 AM
I hate to say it as someone due to turn 50 this year but who feels 20-something inside (well, maybe 30-something), but younger people seem to be the worst offenders.

My experience in shops is the exact opposite: it's the old biddies wandering up and down the aisles caring not a jot for instructions to all move in the same direction and the clear floor markings showing two meter intervals. All of which only demonstrates that anecdote≠data.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 02 May, 2020, 02:01:32 PM
And keeping in the spirit of black humour ('cause Grud knows, we need a laugh now and again during these times....)

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=164370061449973

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Colin Zeal 02 May, 2020, 02:30:13 PM
Royal Mail buckles. No more Saturday Progs for the foreseeable future: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-royal-mail-scraps-saturday-21940534

Update on this - it has been agreed that each delivery office can make the decision for themselves about Saturday post. It will only last for six weeks and be reviewed fortnightly. My office  (London e2) was going to carry on as normal but for some unknown reason the office that processes our work decided for us that we wouldn't be doing letters and flats (magazines and catalogues ) today and held back the work.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: von Boom 02 May, 2020, 03:10:43 PM
I hate to say it as someone due to turn 50 this year but who feels 20-something inside (well, maybe 30-something), but younger people seem to be the worst offenders.

My experience in shops is the exact opposite: it's the old biddies wandering up and down the aisles caring not a jot for instructions to all move in the same direction and the clear floor markings showing two meter intervals. All of which only demonstrates that anecdote≠data.
This is my experience as well. The last time I was there there were three of them blocking an aisle having a catch up on this and that. They were completely oblivious to the other people trying to use the aisle.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Enigmatic Dr X 02 May, 2020, 03:50:12 PM
Thanks for your kind words. She's actually fine, mostly. Sore throat and grumpier than usual (but that might be because I'm at home more). Sore limbs. But no cough, no temperature.

I had a really wierd metal taste in my mouth for five or six days. Whisky got rid of it.

Reckon we've got something.

As she is a pharmacist, she thought it best to get tested so as not to infect anyone.

Results tomorrow - 48 hour turnaround.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 02 May, 2020, 06:39:40 PM
Update on this - it has been agreed that each delivery office can make the decision for themselves about Saturday post. It will only last for six weeks and be reviewed fortnightly. My office  (London e2) was going to carry on as normal but for some unknown reason the office that processes our work decided for us that we wouldn't be doing letters and flats (magazines and catalogues ) today and held back the work.

Interesting - thanks for the update!  Also, I used to work right in the middle of that postcode...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Robin Low 02 May, 2020, 07:06:23 PM
I hate to say it as someone due to turn 50 this year but who feels 20-something inside (well, maybe 30-something), but younger people seem to be the worst offenders.

My experience in shops is the exact opposite: it's the old biddies wandering up and down the aisles caring not a jot for instructions to all move in the same direction and the clear floor markings showing two meter intervals. All of which only demonstrates that anecdote≠data.

Indeed. Hence my use of the word 'seem' as opposed to 'are'. I try to avoid things like YMMV, IME or IMO if I can.

Regards,

Robin
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Robin Low 02 May, 2020, 07:16:07 PM
On another note, has anyone else seen an apparent explosion of joggers in their neck of the woods?

Assuming they're not just new to the activity, I've been wondering when and where they were all running before.

Regards,

Robin
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 02 May, 2020, 07:27:51 PM
Most likely gym users forced into jogging when the gyms/leisure centers shut.  I'm more concerned at the explosion of dog-walkers and wonder why these poor pooches weren't getting exercised before.  Hopefully people weren't just letting them out to wander around.

I hate to say it as someone due to turn 50 this year but who feels 20-something inside (well, maybe 30-something), but younger people seem to be the worst offenders.

My experience in shops is the exact opposite: it's the old biddies wandering up and down the aisles caring not a jot for instructions to all move in the same direction and the clear floor markings showing two meter intervals.

My local supermarket was manned mostly by high-risk individuals (50+, underlying health conditions, etc), and the few employees in their early 20s took it upon themselves many weeks ago - when it all kicked off - to bring in PPE and hand sanitizer, only to be expressly forbidden from using any of it because "it looks bad".  Later, they took it upon themselves to disable the automatic doors and institute a 1-in-1-out policy, as there's a post office in the back portion of the store and pensioners were very much ignoring social distancing/stay at home rules to collect their pensions in person.  The younger staff were taking this seriously, the older ones just seemed to view it as an inconvenience with which they shouldn't have to concern themselves.

Having said that, I've seen more and more (admittedly small) groups of kids hanging about as time goes on.  So much for that joke about how being stuck in their rooms with their phones and videogame consoles isn't really a punishment.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tiplodocus 02 May, 2020, 07:40:53 PM
Had my first shopping trip wearing a mask today. I felt like a total fud.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Robin Low 02 May, 2020, 07:41:45 PM
Most likely gym users forced into jogging when the gyms/leisure centers shut.

Ah, very good, that makes prefect sense.


The younger staff were taking this seriously, the older ones just seemed to view it as an inconvenience with which they shouldn't have to concern themselves.

Yeah, we're probably not going to see a proper demographic breakdown of age-related behaviour. I doubt anyone's doing it now and I can't imagine anyone will want to sit down and watch hours of CCTV footage.

We had a girl in our local co-op who was wearing a mask from the very beginning, but the younger hospital workers who share the bus with me walk in a group, wait in a group and sit in a group. I've seen junior doctors doing the same. Distancing practices also seem to be varying a lot between and within different departments.

Regards,

Robin
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Robin Low 02 May, 2020, 07:44:29 PM
Had my first shopping trip wearing a mask today. I felt like a total fud.

Try a scarf first. Masks will be easier when more people are doing it and the fashion industry sees them as a way to get back on its feet.

Regards,

Robin
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 02 May, 2020, 09:26:30 PM
Most likely gym users forced into jogging when the gyms/leisure centers shut.

I’m afraid this is very much me, although I at least have the decency to go out at 6:30am when very few people will see me wheezing my way round a pathetically short circuit.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 02 May, 2020, 09:31:49 PM
On another note, has anyone else seen an apparent explosion of joggers in their neck of the woods?

Assuming they're not just new to the activity, I've been wondering when and where they were all running before.

Regards,

Robin

I'd have thought some of it is making up for the lack of activity when commuting.  Or having wanted to do so, but not being able to because of the amount of times usually spent commuting.  Myself, I have over two hours a day extra to do with what I want.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sintec 03 May, 2020, 09:43:20 AM
I'm more concerned at the explosion of dog-walkers and wonder why these poor pooches weren't getting exercised before.

My suspicion is that many of these pooches used to get walked by paid dog walkers, they probably went out as part of a group during the day whilst we're all mostly at work. There's definitely been an increase in the number of people who seem to be unable to pick up after their beast, I suspect this may also be related.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Robin Low 03 May, 2020, 09:52:04 AM
On another note, has anyone else seen an apparent explosion of joggers in their neck of the woods?

Assuming they're not just new to the activity, I've been wondering when and where they were all running before.


I'd have thought some of it is making up for the lack of activity when commuting.  Or having wanted to do so, but not being able to because of the amount of times usually spent commuting.  Myself, I have over two hours a day extra to do with what I want.

Could be, but I've noticed that a lot of them look pretty fit already, which fits with the Bear's point about gyms. There is a smaller number who physically look like they're new to it, but even they seem to be trotting along quite comfortably. Certainly more comfortably than I could.

Regards,

Robin
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 03 May, 2020, 12:13:35 PM
...although I at least have the decency to go out at 6:30am when very few people will see me wheezing my way round a pathetically short circuit.

Ah-yup.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 03 May, 2020, 12:27:00 PM

Having said that, I've seen more and more (admittedly small) groups of kids hanging about as time goes on.  So much for that joke about how being stuck in their rooms with their phones and videogame consoles isn't really a punishment.

Well, talking about groups of kids hanging about. Take a look at these fine, young specimens of Humanity in action, as they display their own peculiar form of social distancing.

https://www.facebook.com/seenindublin/videos/2578651435568033

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Robin Low 03 May, 2020, 02:03:32 PM
Interesting little piece on 'lockdown breakers'. I think my favourite line is, "Mum is in touch with this underground network of hairdressers who have been working from home."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52501417

Regards,

Robin
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tiplodocus 03 May, 2020, 02:05:58 PM
I make a point of wearing one of my 10k or half-marathon finisher tops when out running. So people know I did this before the lockdown. Not sure if makes them judge me less or more.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Modern Panther 03 May, 2020, 02:31:06 PM
"Mum is in touch with this underground network of hairdressers who have been working from home."

this is the way the world ends
this is the way the world ends
this is the way the world ends
not with bangs, but with a primper.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Enigmatic Dr X 03 May, 2020, 04:03:33 PM
Missus is waiting on the results of a Covid test.

Front line health worker, waiting to hear so she knows if she can work.

Results delayed by the bank holiday.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tiplodocus 03 May, 2020, 04:47:58 PM
But it isn't a Bank Holiday until 8th? Bonkers.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 03 May, 2020, 05:41:34 PM
Want to see a Cummings bot farm in action?

https://twitter.com/scowlingmonkey/status/1256743386448564224?s=21
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 03 May, 2020, 05:47:08 PM
"Mum is in touch with this underground network of hairdressers who have been working from home."

this is the way the world ends
this is the way the world ends
this is the way the world ends
not with bangs, but with a primper.

Cometh the hour, cometh the man. Fantastic.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Enigmatic Dr X 03 May, 2020, 08:00:18 PM
Missus is waiting on the results of a Covid test.

Front line health worker, waiting to hear so she knows if she can work.

Results delayed by the bank holiday.

I actually asked for this post to be deleted by a mod. I was irritated when I posted it, which was caused by a recording on the phone line when we called to chase the results. Then, about 30 minutes after posting, we got the results (positive). I am really annoyed at myself for venting in a public forum and would like to apologies to all.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 03 May, 2020, 09:48:13 PM
That's shit news Dr X, but don't worry about the venting - totally understandable, stressful times. Sincerely hope your missus gets better quickly, and the bug spreads no further.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 03 May, 2020, 10:01:24 PM
Heck, no need to apologise as far as I can see, Dr X. So sorry to hear of the bad news. Hope you and Mrs X will get through this okay. Sincere best wishes to you both.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 03 May, 2020, 11:17:06 PM
Oh no, I imagine you must both be very worried! That is not news you want to hear. Hang in there!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tiplodocus 04 May, 2020, 12:48:00 PM
Yeah - hope you all make it through fine and dandy.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: von Boom 04 May, 2020, 01:59:28 PM
Awful news, Dr. X. I hope your wife recovers quickly.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Bolt-01 04 May, 2020, 02:28:32 PM
Argh, Dr X - that's rough. Hope all goes well and you have folks who can help with support nearby.

Don't feel bad about venting - it is what we are here for.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 08 May, 2020, 09:15:29 PM
Sales have plummeted, advertising rates are nonexistent, and many newspapers face liquidation.  Anyway, it's a real mystery why so many of them are currently pushing out stories about the lockdown being eased this Monday when even the government aren't saying such a thing.  I wonder what their motivation is?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 09 May, 2020, 01:19:06 PM
TBF, they were clearly briefed on this.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IAMTHESYSTEM 09 May, 2020, 02:23:10 PM
I doubt the shops and supermarkets will restrict their social distancing and numbers allowed entry rules, so queueing will still be the norm for a while. Schools and Libraries are unlikely to reopen, but maybe you can go out for a walk a little more than once a day.     
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 09 May, 2020, 03:22:11 PM
I went for a cycle last night. It was nightmarish. 

I go out later when there are fewer pedestrians and cyclists, and usually manage a cycle once every couple of days. The roads are a lot quieter at dusk, and there’s hardly anyone about. Usually.

This time, I cycled past, and on one occasion through, shitloads of parties. People partying in their front gardens, spilling out onto the pavement, people with chairs and tables laid out with food and drinks in front of their terraced house surrounded by fellow party-goers, AN ENTIRE STREET covered in bunting and rammed with people!!

It was insane.

I get the impression from Twitter that Cardiff wasn’t alone in this idiocy.

I’m calling it now - within the next 1 - 2 weeks we will see our second spike.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 09 May, 2020, 03:46:06 PM
You're assuming the second spike will be allowed to register (although if it does, I will put good money on immigrants being blamed, as we're already seeing lots of stories about how "18 million people have crossed our borders since lockdown began").  Massaging of figures by the likes of the BBC and Sky News has already been noted elsewhere, and Twitter is currently flooded with low-follower accounts keen to jump into threads to point out that people die "with" Covid 19, not "of", and that more people died in other flu seasons, and that they were "economically inactive" anyway, etc.  The level of gaslighting going on arguably qualifies as a pandemic in itself.
Someone described the media's role as waging psychological warfare on the public in order to end lockdown measures, and it's hard to disagree.  The big hurdle for them at the moment is that there's been a paradigm shift in the public's thinking - specifically that thousands dying in a flu season should not be considered "normal", which is one good thing to come of all this.  Naturally, it has to be undone as quickly as possible.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 09 May, 2020, 04:41:54 PM
I have noticed "the media" peddling quite a lot of "when will lock-down end?" rhetoric. Are they echoing the thoughts of the public or trying to generate a story?

Here in the US the lock-down is definitely beginning to fail on a social level to an obvious degree: the roads are busier - the few shops that are open are packed to the gills unless you choose a seriously off-peak time, when they're then just busier than I've ever seen them.

With the populace just beginning to vote with their feet - I start to ask questions about who's suffering (beyond the obvious older people in care homes and medics), and find that's it's people who are out of a job or stuck in a dangerous job (meat-packing).

Perhaps the long-term way forward is to open things up more but bring in more stringent behavioral modifications and cleanliness routines. (Although, managing folk is proving to be as difficult as one might imagine - for everyone who dons a mask for the greater good there's some Scunthorpe that refuses - like, y'know, Trump.)

As ever: best of luck to all.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 09 May, 2020, 06:25:37 PM
Mrs IP just received a string of frankly terrifying texts, including a demand to isolate in the home AND from everyone else in the house. We have no idea what the reason is — that is not provided. Also, if she’s so at risk, why the fuck did it take until now to be told? Argh. (And, yes, these are genuine NHS messages.)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Pyroxian 09 May, 2020, 06:37:31 PM
Mrs IP just received a string of frankly terrifying texts, including a demand to isolate in the home AND from everyone else in the house. We have no idea what the reason is — that is not provided. Also, if she’s so at risk, why the fuck did it take until now to be told? Argh. (And, yes, these are genuine NHS messages.)

My (very healthy) sister got that the other weekend - when she phoned up on the Monday to check, she was told it was a mistake and that she should ignore the messages.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 09 May, 2020, 06:41:43 PM
Mrs IP is in reasonable health but has a slew of allergies and a mild respiratory condition. Her fear is that the combination of factors might make her tricky to treat. But we will be calling on Monday for sure. (We have also been very careful so far.)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: von Boom 09 May, 2020, 08:35:10 PM
Hopefully, it turns out to be a mistake, IP, like Pyro's sister. Regardless, I hope you and she are staying well.

Everyone else stay well as, er... well.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 09 May, 2020, 08:51:31 PM
Best of luck to Mrs IP and the family.

I have noticed "the media" peddling quite a lot of "when will lock-down end?" rhetoric. Are they echoing the thoughts of the public or trying to generate a story?

Leaving aside the self-perpetuating nature of the UK media cycle (in which a right-wing paper can run an op-ed on the front pages and the BBC then launders the story in their newspaper reviews piece from opinion to news simply by acknowledging it), generally when the story is some variation of "23% of Britons favor ending the lockdown", you can make an educated guess why the other 77% aren't mentioned in the headline, though obviously a bit more thought results in pondering how the question was phrased, as there's a big difference between "would you like the lockdown to end today?" and "do you think the lockdown should end today?"

It's over a week old, but this Ispos Mori polling review has a pretty unambiguous headline (https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/britons-least-likely-believe-economy-and-businesses-should-open-if-coronavirus-not-fully-contained), though I am most surprised by the numbers for America.  A quick perusal of social media for more current polling data suggests only around 17% of the public unambiguously favor reopening, which I expected to be significantly higher given some of the stories being published and all the footage of gun nuts with assault rifles rushing town halls.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: paddykafka 10 May, 2020, 10:11:56 AM
I went for a cycle last night. It was nightmarish. 

I go out later when there are fewer pedestrians and cyclists, and usually manage a cycle once every couple of days. The roads are a lot quieter at dusk, and there’s hardly anyone about. Usually.

This time, I cycled past, and on one occasion through, shitloads of parties. People partying in their front gardens, spilling out onto the pavement, people with chairs and tables laid out with food and drinks in front of their terraced house surrounded by fellow party-goers, AN ENTIRE STREET covered in bunting and rammed with people!!

It was insane.

I get the impression from Twitter that Cardiff wasn’t alone in this idiocy.

I’m calling it now - within the next 1 - 2 weeks we will see our second spike.

Sadly, the depth of human stupidity and selfish disregard really doesn't surprise me at all. No doubt those same morons will be weeping and moaning when they or one of their own are afflicted by the virus. The only people I would feel sorry for are the entirely innocent individual who they might infect, or the frontline health worker who has to put their life at risk by treating those thoughtless miscreants.

Hope you're keeping well anyway, Shaolin Monkey. Might be an idea to reconsider your cycling route or time that you go out. Take care.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 10 May, 2020, 04:08:51 PM
...numbers for America.  A quick perusal of social media for more current polling data suggests only around 17% of the public unambiguously favor reopening, which I expected to be significantly higher given some of the stories being published and all the footage of gun nuts with assault rifles rushing town halls.

If the media image of the US was what the US was actually like I wouldn't live here. Hicks did a bit on the skewed perspective of the news media (https://youtu.be/tGjuPJskNRE) that's still relevant today. (Just try to ignore the bit where he suggests the cure for Aids is Jane Fonda having sex with someone she hates.)

Editorially, I get it: which news item do you run with? The 83% of people sitting dutifully at home trying their best not to spread a deadly virus as (for many) their economic situation slowly unravels. Or the gun-toting nut-jobs intimidating their elected representatives?

But not just for ratings: we should know about those gun-toting nut-jobs (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/30/michigan-protests-coronavirus-lockdown-armed-capitol), shouldn't we? I mean, if someone took over your local town hall with a shotgun, it would be strange if everyone was talking about what a lovely scone Mrs. Miggins had for lunch.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: MacabreMagpie 10 May, 2020, 09:03:35 PM
Where the new rules have popped up online, one detail that's being reported is that you're allowed to meet up with one person outside of your household (with social distancing).

Boris didn't say that in the speech, did he?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/10/uk-coronavirus-lockdown-what-has-boris-johnson-announced
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 10 May, 2020, 10:44:00 PM
‪Anyone else confused about this ’R’ business and what it means in terms of reducing Covid-19 transmission and death?‬

I found this document from Welsh Government to be very useful. ‬

‪https://gov.wales/sites/default/files/publications/2020-05/technical-advisory-cell-modelling-update.pdf‬
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 10 May, 2020, 10:56:07 PM
‪Anyone else confused about this ’R’ business and what it means in terms of reducing Covid-19 transmission and death?‬

It’s pretty straightforward: it’s the number of people each infected person passes the infection on to. Greater than one, and the infection is rate is increasing. Less than one and the number of infected people is falling.

Of course, without mass-testing the general population continuously and more or less at random, there is literally no way of calculating ‘R’, which is just one way in which the UK government is continuing to fail on this matter. They talk about the ‘R’ number but they genuinely have no clue what it actually is.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 11 May, 2020, 08:32:06 AM
The danger is that they will wing it without real data. So we will be told R is 0.6 when it might be 1.1. We’ve already seen that we are alone in Europe in terms of the sheer number of excess deaths.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 11 May, 2020, 10:05:49 AM
The legions on that Twitter hurrahing a return to primary school (aka free daycare) on the basis that "the WHO say children can't transmit the virus" is terrifying. For clarity: this is a lie, no-one has said this.

And bad as things are in RoI, with the terrifyng prospect for me of being back on construction sites next week, let me tell you UK types that we are staring with open-mouthed horror at your situation. Even my mother, Daily Mail devotee, Brexit-supporter, isn't-Boris-a-card fangirl, rang me this morning to say "what the hell are they thinking".
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 11 May, 2020, 10:18:49 AM
We have a 5yo. Her school is an infant school, and has three classes per year. So that’s 180 year R and year 1. There is a single-path road leading to the school, which is about 1m wide — about enough for two people side-by-side. The school itself has about 20 car parking spaces, and so people either have to park on the road and walk, or park in nearby streets and walk further. The school itself has a path around the main building that is, again, about enough for two people side-by-side.

Assuming social distancing will still be in place by 1 June, it is almost impossible to do drop-off/pick-up safely. The only way I can think of that this could work would be to close the road to traffic, and essentially have a long ‘conga’ of parents/kids a large distance away. Even that would be tricky, and would take an hour or more per session. It’s not viable.

And this is just one of several schools in one town, and also ignores the vector of children spreading the virus and then giving that back to their parents.

In short, we’re just back to herd immunity, and attempting to not overrun the NHS with cases. That’s it. That’s the plan. (Also, for the uninitiated, there are fines in place if you don’t take your kids to school — and schools can also decide to not take your kids back in the following school year if you don’t take them. Fines are currently on hold, but who knows when that law will change back again? Knowing the Tories, on 1 June…)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Mister Pops 11 May, 2020, 12:02:16 PM
The danger is that they will wing it without real data.

FTFY
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 11 May, 2020, 01:49:26 PM
Best of luck to Mrs IP and the family.
Well, she phoned our GP surgery. That was… something. The person on the other end suggested it “might be a hoax”, and then offered for her to make an econsult appointment to ask our (new and mostly useless) GP to “go through your records” to see what the problem might be.

FFS.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 13 May, 2020, 02:09:54 PM
Really hope all goes well with Mrs IP.

In other news, I've found myself inwardly applauding Piers Morgan as he lays into bullshitting Tories, rather than my usual inward desire to knee him hard in the balls.  Strange times indeed.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 13 May, 2020, 02:47:08 PM
Thanks.

As for Morgan, it shows he has the capability to be a great journalist. Mostly, though, he’s just a git. Still, I’ll take him being on the side of good for now.

Also, it looks like Johnson might have to go back to hospital again after the mauling he got from Starmer in PMQs.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 14 May, 2020, 09:01:58 AM
Seems that Justice Department guidance is a lot clearer than Johnson's .... (https://newsthump.com/2020/05/13/judge-dredd-advised-to-wear-respirator-at-all-times-in-public/)

 ::)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 14 May, 2020, 09:48:37 AM
As for Morgan, it shows he has the capability to be a great journalist. Mostly, though, he’s just a git. Still, I’ll take him being on the side of good for now.

It's like those films where the bad guy allies with the good guy to deal with a greater threat, but once the threat is over they go back to being a bad guy again (and they have the element of surprise as the good guy has got used to them being on the same side).
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 14 May, 2020, 09:50:52 AM
Seems that Justice Department guidance is a lot clearer than Johnson's .... (https://newsthump.com/2020/05/13/judge-dredd-advised-to-wear-respirator-at-all-times-in-public/)

 ::)

Nice use of Mega-history there - davywavy is either a dedicated Squaxx, or well-versed in the ways of using wikipedia to get background for an article :-)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 14 May, 2020, 11:00:14 AM
Seems that Justice Department guidance is a lot clearer than Johnson's .... (https://newsthump.com/2020/05/13/judge-dredd-advised-to-wear-respirator-at-all-times-in-public/)

 ::)

Nice use of Mega-history there - davywavy is either a dedicated Squaxx, or well-versed in the ways of using wikipedia to get background for an article :-)

Nah, has to be a genuine SdK - that's deep knowledge on display there.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 14 May, 2020, 01:40:08 PM
As for Morgan, it shows he has the capability to be a great journalist. Mostly, though, he’s just a git. Still, I’ll take him being on the side of good for now.

It's like those films where the bad guy allies with the good guy to deal with a greater threat, but once the threat is over they go back to being a bad guy again (and they have the element of surprise as the good guy has got used to them being on the same side).

I've seen it comparef to Godzilla versus Mothra.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 14 May, 2020, 03:45:12 PM
As for Morgan, it shows he has the capability to be a great journalist. Mostly, though, he’s just a git. Still, I’ll take him being on the side of good for now.

It's like those films where the bad guy allies with the good guy to deal with a greater threat, but once the threat is over they go back to being a bad guy again (and they have the element of surprise as the good guy has got used to them being on the same side).

I was thinking he was like the guy in a huge epic who starts off as a complete bastard, and gradually over time starts redeeming himself.  Ultimately he ends up making the ultimate sacrifice, and completes his arc by going over the edge of a high place, dragging the truly evil dude with him.  Which hopefully in this case will be Cummings.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 14 May, 2020, 06:20:00 PM
That an opportunist like Morgan is the highest-profile critic of the government says more about the state of the British media class than it does Morgan's abilities as an interviewer.  By all means enjoy the spectacle of his "taking down" Tory nonentities and giving the illusion of accountability, but it's merely a spectacle, nothing more.  He has always been dreadful and that hasn't changed.

Anecdotally, I can actually remember Morgan's tenure as a supposedly left-wing figure in British political journalism (which wasn't a difficult trick for a centre-right populist to pull off during the Blair premiership), as he made an effort to become a minor celebrity pundit back before such an ambition was made considerably easier by the rise of tv programming that required a factory line of minor celebrities to feed it.  He spent years at the helm of the Daily Mirror pulling the paper towards the right-wing politics of Blairism while simultaneously complaining about the Guardian being seen as the face of British leftism and winning awards that for some reason Morgan felt belonged to the Mirror purely because it had higher sales (though this animosity didn't stop him giving multiple interviews to the Guardian, in which he repeatedly and rather ungraciously lambasted the paper and its readership as out of touch and unrepresentative).  He came off as a preening arsehole, tbh, and I think most people dismissed him as destined for oblivion before tv's inexplicable hunger for angry gammon (like there was a fucking shortage) gave him a boost.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 14 May, 2020, 07:45:49 PM
“the right-wing politics of Blairism”

Seriously? I know you’re no fan of Blair, but…
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Professor Bear 14 May, 2020, 08:20:22 PM
Relatively speaking.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 14 May, 2020, 08:25:18 PM
I recall people talking about New Labour having shifted the party well to the right as it tried to catch up with the Tories.

We have this:

A YouGov opinion poll in 2005 found that a small majority of British voters, including many New Labour supporters, place Blair on the right of the political spectrum.


And then his support for much of what Thatcher did - here, a quote from the horse's mouth:

much of what she wanted to do in the 1980s was inevitable, a consequence not of ideology but of social and economic change

On the other hand, Labour (New or otherwise) always a much stronger supporter of public services than the Landed Toffs Tories.

Sources (that have sources):
  Blairism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blairism)
  Tony Blair (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Blair)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 14 May, 2020, 08:38:40 PM
Objectively, though, it’s just bollocks that Blair was of the right. Yes, he wasn’t at the Corbyn edge of the party, but Labour’s policy platform during much of his time was progressive and helped a lot of people. That this was twinned with some more authoritarian (vs liberal) tendencies doesn’t make him right wing either.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 14 May, 2020, 09:42:37 PM
I guess it would be fair to say he's not right-wing by your definition but he is by some other peoples. I don't really have a clear idea in my head of where the divide would be between left and right. Or, as the aging barmaid (misnomer) at my first local would always tell me: "Shower o' c*nts!"

[I'm all distracted now by whether my "peoples" in that context requires an apostrophe.]
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 14 May, 2020, 10:41:25 PM
By some people’s definition, even the Green Party are right wing. (Yes, I’ve had angry Corbynites lob that one my way.) But in any rational look at British politics, Blair was not right wing. To the right of his party, sure. But if he’s right wing, that makes the Lib Dems of the era far right, and the Tories, what, actual extremists?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sintec 15 May, 2020, 08:23:13 AM
I always felt Blair sat pretty firmly in the centre ground - which is certainly to the right of some of his parties members (and to the right of my own views) but he was no Rees-Mogg. The problem with it was it resulted in there being no real opposition from a left wing perspective for a long while and that arguably allowed the Overton window to be dragged towards the right. That is more a flaw in our 2 party system than anything else though.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Bolt-01 15 May, 2020, 10:55:54 AM
Ahem - take this to where it should be lads.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 15 May, 2020, 11:04:37 AM
I always felt Blair sat pretty firmly in the centre ground
In a sense, that aligns well with the balance of the UK. He had mixed policy, hence presumably why he won a landslide. (One of the criticisms levelled at Corbyn — I think fairly — was his group’s tendency towards talking about radicalism, which scares the shit out of people on the breadline regardless of the actual policies.)

The problem with it was it resulted in there being no real opposition from a left wing perspective for a long while and that arguably allowed the Overton window to be dragged towards the right. That is more a flaw in our 2 party system than anything else though.
Well, quite — and that is something I will never forgive Blair’s cabinet for. They could have enacted meaningful electoral reform. They chose not to. Not that Corbyn was any better for that, also being firmly against any change to the Commons.

Blair arguably also existed through a period where liberalism got a bit of a kicking, and I’m not sure we ever recovered from that. It’ll be interesting to see where Starmer’s Labour heads in that regard. (The Lib Dems are a busted flush, and the Greens aren’t going anywhere electorally either. That said, the former kind of need to if Labour’s going to have any chance of leading a coalition come the next general election.)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Jim_Campbell 15 May, 2020, 11:34:30 AM
Not wanting to be that guy, but doesn't all this stuff belong on the Political Thread* so we can carry on depressing ourselves over the Coronapocalypse on this one?

*Yes, I get that it's impossible to talk this stuff without getting into the utter uselessness/callousness/bastardry of the current government, but this general chat about the left/right balance in UK politics seems to have drifted into Political Thread territory.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Bolt-01 15 May, 2020, 11:47:29 AM
I made that point earlier.

Come on lads - this thread is about the other apocalypse.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 15 May, 2020, 03:13:28 PM
Feel like I'm watching all the good work unravel here in RoI, as construction sites, hardwares, garden centres, farmers' markets (how do you maintain social distancing in a farmers' market?) and pet-hate fecking golf courses set to reopen Monday, and groups of 4 permitted to meet. Of course these places have already been packed with workers all this week as they get ready.

They might call this Phase 1, but as far as a lot of people are concerned lockdown ended the minute they outlined a strategy. No-one who has ever worked on a building site could believe social distancing will be observed, any more than HS&W is usually observed. And as for public transport, it was a joke before lockdown, it'll be a joke afterwards. I suffered through weeks of trying to keep my team safe in that environment back in March, I almost can't face it again.

Everyone busy patting each other's backs that the infection and hospitalisation numbers are way down.  Well there's a fecking reason for that. And as far as I can see that reason is now gone.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 15 May, 2020, 03:25:27 PM
I know. I'm bracing myself for the spike and really hope my parents will be ok.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 15 May, 2020, 03:38:01 PM
Iceland, having done a pretty great job, is now planning opening itself up for… tourism. I don’t even.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 15 May, 2020, 04:20:14 PM
Feel like I'm watching all the good work unravel here in RoI, as construction sites, hardwares, garden centres, farmers' markets (how do you maintain social distancing in a farmers' market?) and pet-hate fecking golf courses set to reopen Monday,


As a matter of interest, why do you hate golf courses?  I've never played anything past crazy golf-level, but I can think of worse things to 'build' on a flood plain - like paving and tarmaccing leaving rainwater nowhere to run to.  Though I may have a skewed perspective in that I used to walk through a municipal golf course which merged in to common land when I came home from school (just been looking in to it, not entirely sure how it works that they charge to play a game on land that you can walk through anyway) - so my perspective of golf is that it isn't entirely over-privileged elites jetting off to Scotland to play a round, or whatever a match of golf is called.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 15 May, 2020, 06:01:22 PM
As a matter of interest, why do you hate golf courses?

Totally off-topic, but:

Vast swathes of the country fenced-off usually for the benefit of 'members' or high-paying guests, with all the vomit-inducing tang of cartelist businessmen and political lobbying, generally stripped of wildlife habitat, pollen-rich plants and historic landscape features,  presented in planning applications as 'amenity' and 'tourism' but frequently actually a cynical long-term play to bring open-space/greenbelt zoned land into a future development landbank.  They disproportionately favour coastal and foothills locations, breaking up community access to the sea and uplands, and use an unholy amount of pesticides and water.

If land is going to be unproductive it should be available to wildlife, plantlife and the community, not some low-density playground for adults pretending they're playing a sport, and presenting a barren butchered artificial grassland as somehow environmentally friendly.

But it's really a wholly irrational dislike that I've developed an unfair justification for: plenty of perfectly ordinary people enjoy golf  including members of my own family.  I just fecking hate golf courses.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 15 May, 2020, 06:41:40 PM
Just looked at American Covid19 statistics there. They aren't even close to recovery and Trump is acting like the pandemic is a thing of the past.
You know, I wouldn't wish the illness on anybody, but if you had a gun to my head and I had to pick someone...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 15 May, 2020, 08:06:19 PM
They aren't even close to recovery and Trump is acting like the pandemic is a thing of the past.

I'm just waiting for the moment when they reveal that he has Alzheimers or some other euro-degenerative disease.  The man stood up on international television and suggested that disinfectant should be internally administered to Covid patients.  You cannot tell me that is the statement of someone who is in full control of his faculties.  Then he tries to pass it off as sarcasm?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 15 May, 2020, 08:29:09 PM
I think it's been said before - but it's easy to mix up Alzheimer's and ignorance. Trump is ignorant. The trying to pass it of as sarcasm bit is his acute narcissism. So, y'know, I'm not saying he's not ill.

I was trying to figure his motivations out the other day, and I think the Republicans are positioning themselves so that whenever things get better they'll be able to say "I told you everyone was overreacting. We've said so all along." And in the meantime they get to side with the almost 1 in 4 Americans who are currently out of work by suggesting lifting all the lock-down measures.

I've been playing American Idiot (https://youtu.be/OV64KqHTfYg) in my head to make it feel better.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Modern Panther 16 May, 2020, 02:38:40 PM
Here's a lovely little ditty from Glasgwegian band Slime City, unlocking the complexity of government guidelines. Stay At Home If You Can Stay At Home.

https://twitter.com/michaelmphysics/status/1259602533196206080 (https://twitter.com/michaelmphysics/status/1259602533196206080)

I hope that's clear.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 17 May, 2020, 06:48:49 PM
A scathing write-up in the British Medical Journal:

https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1932
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Richard 17 May, 2020, 06:53:48 PM
But it's really a wholly irrational dislike

No it isn't, you've convinced me. I previously had no opinion on the matter, and now I think they're awful!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Funt Solo 17 May, 2020, 07:35:31 PM
A scathing write-up in the British Medical Journal:

https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1932

It's incredibly damning.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 18 May, 2020, 09:41:07 AM
A scathing write-up in the British Medical Journal:

https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1932

It's incredibly damning.

Yes.  We're already aware of the timeline of inaction and ineptitude from our government.  This amplifies it.

The whole thing reads as a list of utter failures to act, starting years before the virus even appeared. 

The final paragraphs, as well as laying out what is actually required, clearly show disdain and distrust for our current government.

In time, findings from the first population surveillance study will help effective targeting.25 Meaningless political soundbites promising to recruit 18 000 contact tracers, test 200 000 people a day, or invest in unjustified contact tracing apps, divert focus and could lead to more deaths.26 These headline grabbing schemes should be replaced by locality led strategies rooted in communicable disease control.

An effective pandemic response requires not only speed and clarity but also a willingness to accept mistakes and a commitment to international cooperation. Sharing the science and the uncertainties that inform political decisions will help rebuild lost public trust. Politicians and their advisers cannot hide behind science to avoid responsibility for making difficult decisions in a global crisis or merely repeat that they are following the science.

Above all, the response to covid-19 is not about flattening epidemic curves, modelling, or epidemiology. It is about protecting lives and communities most obviously at risk in our unequal society. The most serious public health crisis of our times requires a strong and credible public health community at the heart of its response. A UK government that prioritises the health and wellbeing of the public will see the importance of rebuilding the disempowered and fragmented infrastructures of its public health system.

Anything less is an insult to the tens of thousands of people who have lost their lives in a pandemic for which the UK was forewarned but not forearmed.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 18 May, 2020, 01:30:33 PM
Well, my wife finally got her phone call from the NHS. She hasn’t yet received a letter. She asked why she was on the list. The person on the other end didn’t know. Kay noted our surgery didn’t either. So the NHS removed her from the list without knowing anything about her medical history.

I am fucking furious. Said person noted that we should now get in touch with our GP, so he can comb through her records and request to be added back to said list. Surely, that should have been the bloody reverse of this? I am so sick of this county right now.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 20 May, 2020, 07:22:21 AM
You know, as terrifying as the pandemic is, I can't help being more terrified by the attitude of Trump to this situation.  Leaving aside his allegedly sarcastic "have we tried injecting disinfectant" in the utterly inappropriate daily briefing setting, he now sees the US situation as a "badge of honour"!   :o

So the massive number of cases is down to the skills of testers in the states?  Nothing to do with actions that are allowing the virus to circulate so freely?  What is the massive number of deaths in the states down to?  The ability of Americans to let the virus kill them so efficiently?  "You know, Americans are so much better than other nationalities at letting this virus finish their lives.  It's a beautiful thing, a beautiful thing.  So many corpses.  No other nation in the world has so many corpses.  Let's Make America Dead Again ..."

He's debating whether or not to close his country to travellers from Brazil?  The rest of the world needs to be closing their borders to travellers from the US.  Sorry to fellow boarders who reside in that once-fine nation but with the head-banger you have in charge right now and some of his fellow travellers on the Road to Hell perhaps it is time to think infection vectors.

Anyone who is even remotely optimistic about a possible international solution to the Global Climate Crisis surely needs to reflect on what he and his government are doing.  Oh, and here in the UK we need to be thinking about how closely aligned our "government" wants to be with this man.

 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 20 May, 2020, 09:39:59 AM
You know, as terrifying as the pandemic is, I can't help being more terrified by the attitude of Trump to this situation.  Leaving aside his allegedly sarcastic "have we tried injecting disinfectant" in the utterly inappropriate daily briefing setting, he now sees the US situation as a "badge of honour"!   :o

That wasn't sarcastic - he meant it.  He only said it was sarcasm when he got called up on it.  This was only a week or so ago - don't fall for the 'new narrative'.

: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 20 May, 2020, 12:06:31 PM
The rest of the world needs to be closing their borders to travellers from the US.  Sorry to fellow boarders who reside in that once-fine nation but with the head-banger you have in charge right now and some of his fellow travellers on the Road to Hell perhaps it is time to think infection vectors.

While agreeing with your thoughts on Trump, if we're going to accept (even vaguely, which we probably shouldn't) the stated numbers of US and UK deaths per capita, then it would be UK travellers that should be excluded from the US.  Allowing for differences in rates of testing per capita, the total UK and US *infection rates* are on almost on a par, but looking the harder numbers of deaths per capita the UK's are much worse - almost twice as many (520 per million versus 277 per million).

I accept all the usual caveats about what is recorded as a C-19 death and what is not (for example, Ireland fares far worse than the US in those figures, but our testing numbers are good and we count everything and our numbers accord closely with excess recorded deaths against a 5 year average, so I'd trust those), but I'd still advise against condemning the US response from a position in the UK.

Given as it seems most social distancing has ended here this week (who knew that 'open the garden centres' was code for 'let your kids gather in large groups and hang out of each other'?), we'll not be long catching up.  If I read one more social-media post stating that our 'new infections' is the now the same as when as when lockdown started, so therefore lockdown should end, I'm going to go full futsie and bludgeon the next gang of pricks folicking outside my house.

It's a stomm-show all over.

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&deathsMetric=true&totalFreq=true&perCapita=true&smoothing=0&country=USA+GBR+CAN+BRA+AUS+IND+ESP+DEU+FRA+IRL (https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&deathsMetric=true&totalFreq=true&perCapita=true&smoothing=0&country=USA+GBR+CAN+BRA+AUS+IND+ESP+DEU+FRA+IRL)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 20 May, 2020, 01:32:39 PM
...  then it would be UK travellers that should be excluded from the US.

Fair point.  Then again, watching what has been happening in the US over the last few years I don't feel even the remotest desire to travel to that country.  And I'm saying that as the grandchild of a citizen.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 20 May, 2020, 01:36:11 PM
Well, mini-IP’s infant school has presented its plan to parents for reopening on 1 June. It’s all quite grim, but fortunately erring on the side of safety. The government of course wants all R and 1 students back full-time. That would be basically impossible in our kid’s school (which has three streams of R, 1 and 2). So they’ve decided Year R only. Then they’ve split them in half — one lot do Mon/Tue and the others Thu/Fri, with a “deep clean” on Wednesday. Within those groups, they’re split into classes, with staggered arrival and leaving times.

Parents will have to drop off children while adhering to 2m distancing and using a one-way system. In school, children will be limited to bringing in a light jacked, snack and drink. Nothing else will be allowed. Food will be ‘picnic’ lunches only, and served outside or in a classroom if it is raining. There will be no communal activities, no soft play/soft toys, and activities will be primarily desk-based, with children ideally mixing in groups of three, which they will stick to for the foreseeable.

I don’t know about you, but this strikes me as a pretty miserable state for 5-year-olds. And yet I’m actually quite proud of my kid’s school for doing their best after being dealt a horribly shitty hand by the government. (And on the basis of this plan, I can’t imagine mini-IP — who’s older — will be heading back any time soon.)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 20 May, 2020, 02:58:08 PM
That's really very impressive.  Horrifying, but impressive. So horrifying that you wonder what the educational benefit of subjecting kids to that regime might be.  And at only two days a week, even the economic benefits (the important bit) seem marginal too. I'm as tired as the next person of having to function as a teacher in a dozen subjects as well as do my actual job, declining French irregular verbs in l'Imparfait never my forté and so forth, but even still...

And just now watching kids of that age rolling about on the green patch at the end of our estate in giant viral-conducive rucks, it all seems rather pointless.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 20 May, 2020, 03:58:49 PM
My guess is the thinking has a lot to do with formative years — ensuring kids have the basics they’ll need growing up. But even that showcases a fundamental flaw at the heart of the British educational system, given that in, say, Finland, full formal education starts as late as seven — and Finnish kids on average end up smarter, happier, and better adjusted than British kids.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: moly 21 May, 2020, 08:40:27 AM
I thought kids should go back as soon as they can for education not baby sitting, but with only around a month before the summer holidays it seems pointless, they aren't going to catch up on the last three months lost learning in that time
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 21 May, 2020, 09:09:57 AM
Can't speak for other jurisdictions, but effectively ALL the calls for it here are about free childcare (unlikely to be listened to) . Which motivation I really do understand, as I face into a day of troubleshooting time-lapse photography of sprouting radishes, '-y' plurals and isometric drawings of birdboxes in the kitchen, while my wife has a full day on zoom in the living  room and I try to finish and invoice two reports by tomorrow from my shed,  but I do hate to see it dressed up as concern about education.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 21 May, 2020, 10:40:24 AM
There is an element of freeing up parent time, and that in itself is not a bad thing. If schools are not open, at least one parent needs to stay home with the child(ren). That burden tends to fall more heavily on women, and becomes increasingly problematic in homes towards the working class end of the spectrum (where working from home is less likely) and in single-parent households of any stripe.

Elsewhere, we have exciting medical news. Mrs IP phoned the surgery. She’d been erroneously added by our GP, because he thought she was regularly taking a drug she sporadically takes. On that basis, she would have been at “high risk”, whereas now she’s merely at “moderate risk”. Which is still not great. And I’m still annoyed that she was removed from the list unilaterally. Only there’s a twist in the tale.

It turns out, the calls regarding the local list are not made by the NHS, nor anyone actually qualified, and have instead been assigned to a community support group. Taking the burden off of the NHS is a good thing — I’m all for that. But not erring on the side of caution is not.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Dandontdare 21 May, 2020, 01:18:57 PM
Well, my wife finally got her phone call from the NHS. She hasn’t yet received a letter. She asked why she was on the list. The person on the other end didn’t know. Kay noted our surgery didn’t either. So the NHS removed her from the list without knowing anything about her medical history.

I am fucking furious. Said person noted that we should now get in touch with our GP, so he can comb through her records and request to be added back to said list. Surely, that should have been the bloody reverse of this? I am so sick of this county right now.

Apologies if I'm missing something - she was taken off the list because you raised problems with her being on the list in the first place? I'm not sure what you were trying to achieve there.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 21 May, 2020, 02:05:54 PM
No. The course of events was:

- Mrs IP — who has a complicated medical history and multiple severe allergies — gets a series of frankly terrifying text messages, which basically recommend she immediately isolates, even from her own family. (With very few exceptions, the recommendations are as per someone who already has coronavirus — separate bathrooms; no going within several metres of even family members; etc.)
- One text then helpfully notes a letter will rock up, although it persists in its absence
- My wife calls the GP surgery, who are unsure why she’s on the list, and suggest the calls are a hoax; they note that she can schedule something with a GP in the future if necessary, but they’re very busy, and so on
- After a couple of weeks, we get a call from the ‘NHS’ (I later learn this has in fact all been outsourced to a local community group of volunteers)
- During the call, my wife notes she’s not sure precisely why she’s on the list, but notes her complex medical history, at which point the person on the other end of the line immediately and unilaterally removes her from the list and ends the call
- My wife manages to speak to our GP, who — fortunately — decides he put her on the list in error, purely due to the frequency in which a specific medication she uses is taken

We weren’t “trying to achieve” anything. We were furious that someone — as it turns out, with no medical training — removed my wife from a high-risk list with no regard whatsoever to medical history, nor having any information as to why she was on the list in the first place. That seems appallingly reckless to me. Fortunately, she’s ‘only’ moderately at risk (the second tier) rather than high risk (the first tier), but this whole episode again showcases the way in which this country is winging it, without due care to those who are supposed to be protected.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: The Doctor Alt 8 21 May, 2020, 02:10:09 PM


I can't add anything to this discussion. Our government bleeped up and is still bleeping up... partly because this country in my opinion simply cannot afford to be shut down any longer....

However on a personal note... My mother has a number of serious health conditions including Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, one working lung, type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, skin infections on her legs and movement so restricted she is housebound without the use of a mobility scooter. So needless to say with all the above listed conditions she is at the highest risk of contracting Corvid 19. However, despite filling in a form over 3 weeks ago at the relevant government website listing her as extremely vulnerable. We have yet to receive any advice on how to self isolate and the special measures I should take in order to prevent my mother from becoming infected. We haven’t even had anyone approach us to ask if we required any kind of help.
In contrast two friends of mine who also fall into the extremely vulnerable category received information leaflets within days of the Corvid 19 lockdown was announced. Had we not been paying attention and my mother being housebound we might not have realized that she should self isolate. (Lucky neither of us are idiots) I only found out about the other special measures by having the leaflet read out to me over the phone by one of my friends.

I am now considering writing to my MP. Not being at least asked if we needed assistance is not acceptable. No wonder when I have applied for attendance allowance to help us financially my applications have been refused on the basis that she doesn't need help. Mother is a damned fall risk and I have to call for ambulance staff because she is too large for me to pick her up by myself. (Adrian said he could get her back up on his own..but I don't think he would be able to without him hurting himself so I wouldn't ask him for assistance)

We can't even afford one of those alarms because the monthly fee is £18 plus the telephone landline charges. I know it's probably too late for us to get assistance... but I want to try and make sure that should there be a second wave or even another disease (I don't think that this will be the last pandemic we face until the root cause of this virus is tackled... and that's going to be hard for a number of reasons) That my mother will get the support she needs.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 21 May, 2020, 03:03:48 PM
Anyone who reads this and still comes away thinking we need to ease lockdown is off their rocker. Or a Tory.

It estimates 61,000 new COVID-19 infections per week in England, and an average of 137,000 infected people between 4-17 May.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveypilot/england21may2020/pdf
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Tjm86 22 May, 2020, 07:12:41 AM

We can't even afford one of those alarms because the monthly fee is £18 plus the telephone landline charges. I know it's probably too late for us to get assistance...

I know that it is not often that we are able to provide more practical assistance than an ear but I would say that this is one of those occasions when an opportunity presents itself.  I would like to offer to pay towards this.  let's face it, if we add in landline charges of around £20pcm then the total monthly cost is going to be £38.  If 19 of us were to offer to support you then that would work out at about £2 each pcm. 

I would rather pay that for 12 months than towards Tom's Knighthood Fund.  I know that that money is going towards NHS charities and GoFundMe's profits but there is still a need for support for families.

Let us know how you feel about this.  If anyone else feels they could support a fellow Squaxx then maybe we can do something practical for a change.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 22 May, 2020, 09:18:41 AM
Yeah, count me in.  Great idea Tjm. It's a crap situation for any of us to be in, and the denizens of this board - former and current - have helped me out so much in the past that I'd be delighted to be able to throw a tiny drop of that back into the collective pot.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 22 May, 2020, 12:59:46 PM
Yep, count me in.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Mister Pops 22 May, 2020, 03:02:08 PM
There are houses on my street completely decked out in blue bunting, windows with so many rainbows and posters of the government's advice to Stay Home, Save Lives, Protect the NHS, that no sunlight can get through. I understand why. I mean if I was spending as much time outside my house as these people I'd want it to look pretty. I think they have it in their heads that if they pay enough lip service to the guidelines and bang their pots loud enough on Thursday, that's enough and the virus will leave them alone. 

But it won't. I've just seen the fourth hearse of the month pull up on my street.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Hawkmumbler 25 May, 2020, 04:12:38 PM
....Is Shark alright*, does anyone know? He appears to have been uncharacteristically quiet of late, and the debaty threads have been all the emptier for it...



*Loaded question, I know.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 25 May, 2020, 04:27:01 PM
I was only thinking that the other day. He’s disappeared from FB too.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 25 May, 2020, 05:01:33 PM
Sharky says he's doing fine, but has had enough of the online life for the time being. We've all been there.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Leigh S 25 May, 2020, 05:11:36 PM
This is excruciating - the only question needs asking here is "you are really telling us theat you have no support systems through your job that would have been able to get you any support you needed or transport you back and forth if required?"
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Leigh S 25 May, 2020, 05:16:38 PM
How can he have been sure of being able to complete a 5 hour trip without stopping with a 4 year old Autistic child?  Such Bull shit!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Mister Pops 25 May, 2020, 05:18:04 PM
As my grandda used to say "Don't pish in me face and tell me it's raining"
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Leigh S 25 May, 2020, 05:44:33 PM
Why did he take his 4 year old out for his eye sight test drive?  Such nonsense!!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Colin YNWA 25 May, 2020, 06:02:27 PM
Why did he take his 4 year old out for his eye sight test drive?  Such nonsense!!

I've kept out of this thread but this exactly this. We had supposedly some of the top political commentators and only one person even discussed the 'road test' to Barnard Castle with your wife and child in a journey one would assume (I don't know the trip so need to be careful) that had little baring on the actual jounrey he would be taking. No one raised much about that and its that, which more than anything else, suggests his statement is nothing more than another fabrication by this Government that has regularly run on lies and half truths.

They also didn't press him on the fact that he says there have been many mistruths reported about him. From what I can tell he confirmed many of those stories today. Made no reference to what is true and what is a lie - in the main part. He's just repeating the tactic of Trump and trying to make the press  and media the villian. They are guilty - in certain parts - of much but in this instance got a lot right it would seem?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Leigh S 25 May, 2020, 07:27:58 PM
I suppose this should be on the political thread, but if his story is true, why did the police visit on the 1st April, shortly after he got there and was then immediately ill for 10 days - how was he seen to be reported to teh Police if he was indeed self isolating?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Mister Pops 25 May, 2020, 07:29:19 PM
Columbo always gets his man because they always give way too detailed alibis for him to pick apart.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 25 May, 2020, 10:09:16 PM
He admitted at least twice to breaking the law. Still, Tory MPs seem happy.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 25 May, 2020, 10:28:19 PM
He admitted at least twice to breaking the law. Still, Tory MPs seem happy.

Well, why wouldn't they. He is the Tory party these days - if he's happy, they're happy.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 26 May, 2020, 09:58:01 AM
So against a backdrop of 63,000 dead according to FT analysis, and pretty much every medical and healthcare institution decrying the actions of government as catastrophic, we have a weasel who helped make the rules, headed a huge PR campaign to get everyone to stay at home, and then flouted the rules as if he was somehow special, creating a real 'us and them' feeling, which will no doubt lead to more infections and deaths down the line, as folk think "If the government can't follow their own rules, why should I?"

One Conservative MP has enough moral fortitude to resign his position and head to the backbenches, at least.  Maybe more will follow.

It's so hard to separate the politics from the biggest healthcare disaster in over a century, isn't it?  Largely because the government are completely responsible for this clusterfuck.

 
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 26 May, 2020, 10:38:46 AM
Meanwhile Johnson regrets the 'confusion' caused by Cummings' actions, because You People aren't sophisticated enough to understand which particular laws can be broken willy-nilly.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: CalHab 26 May, 2020, 10:53:03 AM
One Conservative MP has enough moral fortitude to resign his position and head to the backbenches, at least.  Maybe more will follow.

Yes, fair play to Douglas Ross. I'm not a fan, but he was right to resign in this case. His constituents are livid.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 26 May, 2020, 11:13:07 AM
Meanwhile Johnson regrets the 'confusion' caused by Cummings' actions, because You People aren't sophisticated enough to understand which particular laws can be broken willy-nilly.
He regrets the proles not knowing their place. Cummings is allowed to break the law, but we are not. It’s really that simple. I just wish he’d have the balls to come out and say it.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: sheridan 26 May, 2020, 12:40:08 PM
Meanwhile Johnson regrets the 'confusion' caused by Cummings' actions, because You People aren't sophisticated enough to understand which particular laws can be broken willy-nilly.
He regrets the proles not knowing their place. Cummings is allowed to break the law, but we are not. It’s really that simple. I just wish he’d have the balls to come out and say it.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's come up on this thread or the main politics thread, but one of the main elements of a sincere apology is to regret what you've done.  Not regret how other people feel about what you've done - that's shifting the blame to them.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 26 May, 2020, 01:07:57 PM
Thanks to Steve Green for the idea.

(https://i.imgur.com/268jnJT.jpg)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: IndigoPrime 26 May, 2020, 01:15:24 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if it's come up on this thread or the main politics thread, but one of the main elements of a sincere apology is to regret what you've done.  Not regret how other people feel about what you've done - that's shifting the blame to them.
Which is a problem if you’re both incapable of telling the truth and also incapable of apologising.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Colin YNWA 26 May, 2020, 01:16:00 PM
Okay well shaolin_money is a genius - can I steal that for Facebook?
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 26 May, 2020, 01:20:25 PM
Of course!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Colin YNWA 26 May, 2020, 01:32:22 PM
Of course!

Cool - stolen and I may or may not have given credit...
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 26 May, 2020, 02:13:03 PM
Meanwhile Johnson regrets the 'confusion' caused by Cummings' actions, because You People aren't sophisticated enough to understand which particular laws can be broken willy-nilly.
He regrets the proles not knowing their place. Cummings is allowed to break the law, but we are not. It’s really that simple. I just wish he’d have the balls to come out and say it.

That's the thing. There is no confusion, Boris, you patronising prick. How the law works is clearer than ever.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 26 May, 2020, 02:43:54 PM
Magnificent use of one of my all-time favourite cmics spreads.  Brilliant work, SM.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 26 May, 2020, 02:54:50 PM
It's outstanding alright! I'll be sharing too
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: TordelBack 26 May, 2020, 04:15:06 PM
One suggestion - change the 'A' in "City of the Damned" to an 'O'.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: shaolin_monkey 26 May, 2020, 04:35:29 PM
One suggestion - change the 'A' in "City of the Damned" to an 'O'.

Genius.

Done.

(https://i.imgur.com/glRYimt.jpg)
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: Colin YNWA 26 May, 2020, 05:15:23 PM
Oh they didn't think it was possible - but it gets BETTER!!!!
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: JayzusB.Christ 26 May, 2020, 06:11:48 PM
Oh they didn't think it was possible - but it gets BETTER!!!!

Took the words right out of my, er, keyboard.
: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
: DaveGYNWA 27 May, 2020, 10:47:33 PM
BOOM!!!