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General Chat => Off Topic => : Jim_Campbell 14 May, 2013, 05:32:47 PM

: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Jim_Campbell 14 May, 2013, 05:32:47 PM
(Rather than drag the Minty thread off-topic, I thought I'd follow up the post below in its own thread.)

: Steve Green
Yep, and even though I disagree strongly with Adobe forcing their software into a rental only model...

Don't get me started on that. Grrr....
As a poster on the Ars Technica forums rather succinctly put it:

This is Adobe saying 'Wouldn't it be great if every Creative Suite user bought a full priced upgrade to the most expensive edition of the suite every 12 months, regardless of whether we actually managed to ship compelling new features?' and then realizing that there's sufficiently little competition in this market that, hey, they can just make users do that.

Because I use Design Standard rather than the full suite, this is the financial equivalent of my having to buy the Design Standard package every two years at full retail price (not upgrade) with the added wrinkle of knowing that if I miss a payment, the software I rely on for a living will simply stop working.

I'll keep using my legal (and horrifically buggy) version of CS6 until it stops working. I think running CorelDraw under Bootcamp may provide a partial solution, and we'll see if MangaStudio keeps stepping up its game. Fortunately, I still have a legacy copy of Quark* for the occasional long document where needed.

Cheers

Jim

*There's irony for you. If Quark has any sense at all, they'll either slash the price or offer a massive discount for InDesign cross-grades.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: The Enigmatic Dr X 14 May, 2013, 05:41:57 PM
But - surely old versions still work? How are they achieving this in practice? Are they patching in the upgrade requirement?
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Jim_Campbell 14 May, 2013, 05:49:28 PM
But - surely old versions still work? How are they achieving this in practice? Are they patching in the upgrade requirement?

Oh, yes — my copy of CS6 will still work, but they've announced that beyond security patches, they're basically not supporting it any more and there will be no CS7.*

All new versions of their software will be 'Creative Cloud', which installs to your local hard drive like previous versions but which is only available on monthly subscription. Once a month, the software will dial up Abobe and check you're maintaining your subscription, or it will stop working.

Cheers

Jim

*Is this an immediate problem? No. But keep in mind that we're talking about a company that broke backwards compatibility on InDesign's native file format between v5.0 and v5.5. There's little doubt in my mind that as soon as Adobe can contrive a bullshit excuse to break backwards compatibility between Creative Cloud and CS6 they will, forcing print shops and repro houses to move to CC or go out of business.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Banners 14 May, 2013, 06:02:14 PM
I shall enjoy putting my thoughts together for this one!

In the meantime, I despair at how the video here (http://www.adobe.com/uk/products/indesign.html) appears to think that the most compelling reason to fork out for an InDesign upgrade is - drumroll please - a dark UI option.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Steve Green 14 May, 2013, 06:21:17 PM
Yeah, what I don't understand is even when pointing to a document from Adobe that their intention is to increase revenue per customer, some people still think it's a great idea to have CC as the only option.

Personally I will be sticking with CS6 for as long as I can, and to be honest - it's really only After Effects and Premiere that I use extensively.

I'm hoping that it might be possible to run them side-by-side and just use it as a billable item if I'm pushed into it.

But for myself, I'm old-fashioned that I like my software companies to actually put some fucking effort in to justify an upgrade, rather than just be able to pull the plug.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Banners 15 May, 2013, 08:26:52 AM
I use InDesign practically all day every day and, on the whole, I think it's a great product that is intuitive and easy to use. Like Jim, I use the CS6 Design Standard suite, having followed an upgrade path over the last decade where I have skipped two or three versions each time – deciding when to upgrade as a compromise between getting new features and maximising my prior investment.

I do not like the move to the rental model and will not be rushing to sign up for the Creative Cloud. Here are some reasons why.

The new features that I have read about are small evolutions and do not seem to address my own issues with InDesign (which I have reported as bugs), nor those of the wider InDesign community. Indeed, Adobe's own product evangelist, in summing up his sales pitch, touts a dark UI as one of just two new killer features. Wow.

My biggest issue is that once I start using the Creative Cloud suite, I will lose access to my files should my subscription ever end. Whilst I will own CS6 in perpetuity, files made in the CC versions of the InDesign file format will be incompatible with InDesign CS6. So, I would need to keep my CC subscription going or else lose access to my work. In effect, this allows Adobe to own my creativity and intellectual property. That's a little over-dramatic perhaps, but one is effectively committing to signing up to the CC for the rest of your working life.

The monthly price is too high given the lack of compelling new features, even considering the upgrade discounts. The all-or-nothing approach wherein you get access to all the CS programs looks good at first glance. However, it is arrogant, ignorant and exploitative to only have one monthly price. I can see Adobe's business case for moving to the subscription model, but for those of us who only use a few programs, there should be a lower-priced option.

The contrary argument is that the money I earn using Adobe's products far outweighs their cost.

That's true, but as I already own CS6, why should I need to pay so much more per month for unimpressive new features? Also, how long will the current prices last? If they suddenly increase, then there's nothing I can do about it – I cannot elect to wait to upgrade. It's all-or-nothing again.

Calling it the creative “cloud” is something of a misnomer as there is very little actual cloud functionality. It's not like I can work from a different PC and have instant access to InDesign via some kind of Citrix or OnLive client.

If they're getting all this money every month anyway, where is Adobe's incentive for innovation?

So, there are lots of things I think I dislike about Adobe moving exclusively to the so-called Creative Cloud. It's a cynical, greedy manipulation of their market-leading position, and demonstrates a complete lack of empathy with the people who have embraced their products and made them succesful. It's a decision made by accountants rather than creatives.

I guess I will use CS6 for as long as I can - until Adobe somehow force me to move, until there are brilliant new features, or until my clients ask for it (unlikely as not many of them know nor care about what I use). But, sadly, it seems to be an inevitability – and another monthly expense spent on thin air and with nothing to show for it at the end.

To me, those reasons I dislike Adobe's move to the CC-only rental model are bad enough. But the thing I resent most is that my livelihood – and by extension, my home and family – is being exploited and, worse, threatened.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Jim_Campbell 15 May, 2013, 08:37:40 AM
files made in the CC versions of the InDesign file format will be incompatible with InDesign CS6.

Seriously?! I hadn't read that. Is this part of Adobe's business model now, to break backwards compatibility with InDesign every time they release a new version?

Congratulations, Adobe — I honestly believed that no company could have been a bigger bunch of arrogant, money-grabbing bastards with no respect for their user base than Quark circa v4/5. You've proved me wrong.

Bloody hell.

Jim
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Jim_Campbell 15 May, 2013, 08:42:11 AM
Indeed, Adobe's own product evangelist, in summing up his sales pitch, touts a dark UI as one of just two new killer features. Wow.

Am I the only person who hates the whole 'dark UI' thing? I find it hard on the eyes and intensely distracting. I want a nice, neutral mid-to-light-grey and, perhaps, for the UI teams on AI, ID and PS to actually concentrate on making the various UI elements behave consistently between applications…

Cheers

Jim
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Steve Green 15 May, 2013, 08:45:16 AM
Maybe I should write to all my clients and say that I'm moving to a cloud model - they need to pay me 40 quid a month to retain their old projects.

Let's see how quickly they'd tell me to fuck off.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Banners 15 May, 2013, 08:48:21 AM
files made in the CC versions of the InDesign file format will be incompatible with InDesign CS6.

Seriously?! I hadn't read that. Is this part of Adobe's business model now, to break backwards compatibility with InDesign every time they release a new version?

Rather than the native file format, you can use IDML to save backwards to InDesign CS4, but it's not perfect and you lose compatibility with new features of course.

I assume it will be the same with CC, but where's Adobe's incentive to improve or maintain backwards-compatibility? By sustaining backwards-compatibility, they're losing lucrative sales.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: radiator 15 May, 2013, 09:25:11 AM
So hold on: you can only subscribe to ALL the Adobe programs for one fixed price?

Lunacy - what about people like me who only ever use the one program? Seems like an excuse to force people to pay the equivalent of every single upgrade, which just isn't fair or justified. I suspect Adobe are making a rod for their own back with this - Kickstarter for an open source rival anyone?
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Banners 15 May, 2013, 09:31:11 AM
So hold on: you can only subscribe to ALL the Adobe programs for one fixed price?

You can subscribe to one app for £17.58 a month, but most people (I guess) use at least InDesign, Illustrator and Photoshop together.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: radiator 15 May, 2013, 09:39:23 AM
Ok, we'll that's slightly more reasonable I suppose. I guess for me it will work out the same as upgrading every two years.

I bloody hate subscription models though, and try to avoid them at all costs. I would always rather pay for something upfront and own it forever than live at the mercy of a corporation.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: TordelBack 15 May, 2013, 10:33:22 AM
I would always rather pay for something upfront and own it forever than live at the mercy of a corporation.

I don't think you're going to like the future much.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Jim_Campbell 15 May, 2013, 10:34:35 AM
Ok, we'll that's slightly more reasonable I suppose. I guess for me it will work out the same as upgrading every two years.

In other news, I just upgraded to MangaStudio 5 for £41.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Professor Bear 15 May, 2013, 04:04:29 PM
I agree with Adobe's policy of punishing paying customers, it is the only way to fight piracy.  I do not actually comprehend how this is the case, but I am sure they know what they are doing.

Well, I trust no-one is such a greedy bunch of money-grubbing cunts that they'd ignore the existence of freeware that does all the things their products do, just across several programs rather than in one place, anyway.  I have faith that no-one could be that stupid or blinded by greed.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: radiator 15 May, 2013, 04:44:37 PM
Adobe's policy of punishing paying customers

I agree. Aren't the people who already pirate Adobe software just going to find a workaround for this anyway?

the existence of freeware that does all the things their products do, just across several programs rather than in one place

Really? Cos I don't see a serious alternative to Photoshop out there...
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Professor Bear 15 May, 2013, 05:29:52 PM
They're perhaps not as polished as overall packages, but there are plenty of alternatives.  A lot of artists switched to Manga Studio years ago, and I'd have done it myself only I'm too lazy to learn to work around a few minor niggles.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: radiator 15 May, 2013, 06:00:20 PM
I'm not talking about an alternative to Photoshop from a comic artists perspective - I'm talking about an alternative, serious, high end image editor. I don't believe there is one.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: SuperSurfer 15 May, 2013, 06:16:19 PM
I recently scan read an intro to a news article and thought Adobe's Creative Cloud was for mobile devices, so bizarre it seemed.

For quite a few years Adobe has trounced the opposition (with pretty decent programs and by gobbling up other companies such as Macromedia, which IIRC gobbled up other companies such as Aldus – remember PageMaker anyone?). Being a market leader gives Adobe power to call the shots but then again QuarkXpress used to be the market leader in page layout software until Adobe caned it for value for money with its Creative Suite. QuarkXpress was so undercut by Adobe, InDesign became the norm. I don't know anyone who uses QuarkXpress anymore.

But Adobe being the market leader gave us the benefit of compatibility. People such as myself are constantly sharing files with repro houses, printers, agencies, freelancers etc which makes freeware not really an option for me.

: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Professor Bear 15 May, 2013, 06:29:51 PM
I'm not talking about an alternative to Photoshop from a comic artists perspective

I worked in a design firm that used Inkscape and Gimpshop*.  The only paid art software package used in the office was Sketchbook Pro, with one guy taking care of file compatibility for the entire office by converting formats before sending files to the relevant workstations.

(Although to be honest, I did later install a copy of CS on my work pc as I was more familiar with it than these hippy-dippy socialist art packages)

* I think this is now only available as ad-supported freeware.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Banners 19 May, 2013, 05:16:34 PM
Seems like Adobe can't even get the cloud aspect right (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/17/adobe_creative_cloud_problem/).
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: HdE 23 May, 2013, 10:53:36 PM
Probably worth me chipping in here, as I've been vocal about my displeasure at this move elsewhere already... and I don't care who I offend, for once.

Adobe can shove their Creative Cloud model. With great prejudice. And no lube.

I've worked like a crazy man to get to a point where I'm generating some regular income from comics. I've incorporated both Photoshop and Illustrator into my workflow, and to be honest, my instinct is to ay 'I'll use these programs for as long as I can'.

But, as it looks like I've gained enough of a foothold in comics to say I'll be on the scene for a little while at least, I feel I have to look towards the long term. Hence, Adobe are getting the boot.

Like Jim, I've invested in Manga Studio 5. It should be noted that Manga Studio already enjoys favour with a good number of jobbing comics artists, especially those using Cintiqs and the like. I can see it becoming the new industry standard.

As for Illustrator, I'll be replacing that with Corel Draw early next year. It'll simply do everything Illustrator does, and I've got time between now and then to investigate any issues or workarounds as required.

I'm really at a loss as to what Adobe's thinking behind this move is. It's certainly making their software seem far less appealing. I don't have £18.00 a month to spend on access to software I'm already using, thank you very much, and if I can buy a complete software package for less than 3 months' subscription fee, then that's what I'll do.

Goodbye, Adobe. I love your software, but I hate how you do business.

: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Jim_Campbell 25 May, 2013, 12:53:09 PM
If anyone was planning to get a copy of CS6 before Creative Cloud becomes the only option, you'll need to be quick. I hear that Adobe have made the boxed copies of CS6 returnable if the vendors get them back in by the end of the month…

Cheers

Jim
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Professor Bear 25 May, 2013, 03:55:42 PM
I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly don't see CS6 being pirated to fuckery and back.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Banners 25 May, 2013, 05:28:48 PM
Nice to see Computer Arts championing the little guy and capturing the zeitgeist in their new issue...

"...[Adobe] appears to be making a big effort to make designers' lives easier with new features that show genuine innovation, and solve real problems for creative professionals".
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: soggy 25 May, 2013, 07:49:39 PM
Nice to see Computer Arts championing the little guy and capturing the zeitgeist in their new issue...

"...[Adobe] appears to be making a big effort to make designers' lives easier with new features that show genuine innovation, and solve real problems for creative professionals".

That would be the too much money problem  :D
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Banners 03 October, 2013, 11:54:06 PM
It seems Adobe are busily proving their cloud credentials...

Adobe says attackers compromised 2.9 million accounts, stole source code (http://www.engadget.com/2013/10/03/adobe-says-attackers-compromised-2-9-million-customer-accounts/)

: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Banners 10 October, 2013, 07:55:42 AM
Sorry to bang on about this, but a week after the announcement of accounts being hacked, only this morning - a week later - have I received an email saying my account was compromised. Simply not good enough.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Jim_Campbell 10 October, 2013, 08:16:18 AM
Sorry to bang on about this, but a week after the announcement of accounts being hacked, only this morning - a week later - have I received an email saying my account was compromised. Simply not good enough.

Yeah. I got one a couple of days ago advising me to change my password. The link redirected to me a "Forgotten your pasword?" page.

NO, ABOBE! I HAVEN'T FORGOTTEN IT — YOU FUCKING GAVE IT AWAY!

Gaah!

Jim
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Banners 13 November, 2013, 08:33:47 AM
(Yes, I'm still banging this drum).

Just downloaded an Adobe update intended to address security fixes in Flash and Air and - somehow - now I have a Creative Cloud icon on my desktop, and a new Creative Cloud background service running. Very annoying how they're trying to foist this damn thing on me.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Jim_Campbell 13 November, 2013, 08:56:31 AM
(Yes, I'm still banging this drum).

Good man. So am I… I can't believe I keep coming across otherwise intelligent people who:

1) Still believe they're saving money on CC

and

2) Don't think Adobe will absolutely gouge everyone on the CC monthly sub fee as soon as they feel confident that they've moved enough people onto the subscription model.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Steve Green 15 November, 2013, 05:13:31 PM
I'm amazed too - presumably they just see that it's a small amount to buy in and are blind to the fact they are now locked in to paying every single month.

The attitude seems to be more 'that's the way it's going, get used to it'

My response 'well it will if you idiots roll over and support it'
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: CheechFU 18 November, 2013, 10:13:23 AM
Not everyone is a struggling artist, some of us have CC subscriptions paid for us by our employers  :lol:

: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: IndigoPrime 18 November, 2013, 10:35:20 AM
The attitude seems to be more 'that's the way it's going, get used to it'
Screw-ups with card details notwithstanding, I'm willing to give Adobe a year or so more on this, to see if it helps regarding updates. It's been clear since at least CS3 that the 18-month upgrade cycle was really hurting Adobe products, leading the company to push 'screen-grab friendly' updates on certain apps and press-friendly ones elsewhere. Monthly subscriptions and the eradicating of big version-number updates could lead to more ongoing iteration, bug fixes and ad-hoc addition of new features.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Jim_Campbell 18 November, 2013, 11:00:05 AM
Monthly subscriptions and the eradicating of big version-number updates could lead to more ongoing iteration, bug fixes and ad-hoc addition of new features.

And cost me twice as much as my perpetual license until the end of time? No, thank you.

Don't misunderstand me: if people want to get bent over and fucked in the arse by Adobe on their subscription model, fine. I have no problem with that, but there's no reason why they couldn't aggregate the ongoing CC updates into a single annual CS version and flog that as a perpetual license to those of us who object in principle to the idea of paying Adobe a monthly fee for the privilege of being able to open our own files.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Steve Green 18 November, 2013, 11:26:06 AM
The attitude seems to be more 'that's the way it's going, get used to it'
Screw-ups with card details notwithstanding, I'm willing to give Adobe a year or so more on this, to see if it helps regarding updates. It's been clear since at least CS3 that the 18-month upgrade cycle was really hurting Adobe products, leading the company to push 'screen-grab friendly' updates on certain apps and press-friendly ones elsewhere. Monthly subscriptions and the eradicating of big version-number updates could lead to more ongoing iteration, bug fixes and ad-hoc addition of new features.

I don't see how it was hurting - personally I think 18-month cycles are about right for apps of a certain complexity - I really wouldn't want to risk perpetually breaking something with an update.

I know you can forego these, but that seems to be one of the major selling points of CC.

I have no objection to CC for those who want it, but I paid a massive chunk of money for CS6 up front and see absolutely no value in switching to a CC model.

I put it to those who rave about it elsewhere.

"If you're on CC, what are you going to do if you aren't happy with the speed of updates, or the price of updates, or the direction something's going?

With CS you could hold back and still be able to use your software - with CC you simply can't do that."

It doesn't help that I've been much more impressed by what the plugin manufacturers are doing, VideoCopilot, Trapcode, Imagineer/Mocha than the devs of the host application.

The same applies to Autodesk, although they haven't gone quite past the finishing post of shit that is CC.

Both Autodesk and Adobe seem to be on a mission to out-dick move each other.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: IndigoPrime 18 November, 2013, 02:55:17 PM
I don't see how it was hurting - personally I think 18-month cycles are about right for apps of a certain complexity - I really wouldn't want to risk perpetually breaking something with an update.
The problem is, what really happened was every 18 months, Adobe had to try and make the shareholders happy by firing out an update to the entire suite, whether individual apps needed updating or not. This resulted in apps getting half-arsed features they didn't need, other apps not getting the updates they really did need, and quite a few occasions of desperately needed fixes essentially not occurring until the next 18-month cycle.

I'm also not entirely 'pro' any one type of purchase model, but I've been stitched up at least as often with boxed software/major version upgrades as I have with subs.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Professor Bear 18 November, 2013, 04:12:52 PM
Manga Studio is not quite there yet - I really dislike the file architecture they currently have as of MS5 to the point I downgraded back to EX4 - but one day Smith Micro will remember that they really like money, and then they'll notice that there are a lot of people who want to spend money on an art programme, and then they will bang these two thought-rocks together - probably for a little longer than one might consider necessary - until sparks appear, and then Adobe won't have to go fuck themselves like we want them to because everyone else will do that for them.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Steve Green 18 November, 2013, 04:38:28 PM
I don't see how it was hurting - personally I think 18-month cycles are about right for apps of a certain complexity - I really wouldn't want to risk perpetually breaking something with an update.
The problem is, what really happened was every 18 months, Adobe had to try and make the shareholders happy by firing out an update to the entire suite, whether individual apps needed updating or not. This resulted in apps getting half-arsed features they didn't need, other apps not getting the updates they really did need, and quite a few occasions of desperately needed fixes essentially not occurring until the next 18-month cycle.

I'm also not entirely 'pro' any one type of purchase model, but I've been stitched up at least as often with boxed software/major version upgrades as I have with subs.

I'd only been using since CS5 as a suite, and that was off the back of a promotion when Apple were monkeying around with FCP. I never had a problem really - I barely use Photoshop, it's mainly After Effects and Premiere - the others are just handy for the odd thing.

I don't think suites themselves are necessarily a great thing either, for the reasons you mention, Autodesk are in an especially dumb self-imposed place with 3x3D apps that do broadly the same thing.

Pleasing shareholders seems to be a particularly shit way to drive the development of this kind of software, it doesn't matter whether it's boxed or rental model.

I'd just like to be given the opportunity to choose the least shit method, and Adobe have taken that option away.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Jim_Campbell 29 November, 2013, 08:46:39 AM
If I could find an alternative to Illustrator, I'd feel a lot happier. My only option when Adobe inevitably drop CS6 support to try and push everyone onto CC at present is to switch to Windows and try CorelDraw.

However, I'm going to be keeping a VERY careful eye on iDraw. (http://www.indeeo.com/idraw/mac.html) There's no CMYK support at present, and I'm not convinced there are enough type-handling options, but the feature set looks like they're aiming very squarely at the Illustrator market and the developers say that CMYK  (including colour profiles) is on their 'to do' list…

It's not there yet, but it looks bloody close.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: IndigoPrime 29 November, 2013, 10:33:57 AM
The problem with indies it's they've mostly been crushed under the Adobe wheels. I've reviewed a lot of promising vector packages for OS X, but most of them are now seemingly dead, including Opacity and VectorDesigner. The one that seems still very alive is Sketch (http://www.bohemiancoding.com/sketch/), although that's very much aimed at screen designers. A lot of web pros I know have migrated to it from a mixture of Photoshop, Illustrator and Fireworks. No CMYK support, though, and I'm not sure that and other print-oriented tools will ever happen.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: radiator 29 November, 2013, 10:48:34 AM
I wonder if there's any chance that there could be potential for a Kickstarted Adobe alternative?

Free, open-source, with each update paid for with a successive Kickstarter.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: IndigoPrime 29 November, 2013, 11:13:20 AM
I doubt it. For apps of this complexity, you'd need a staggering amount of money and I just can't see the cash being raised on Kickstarter. If there were no alternatives for any use-cases, it might work, but there are. It's print designers who are currently largely screwed; screen designers have enough decent existing alternatives to choose from re Illustrator/Photoshop. (For print layout, I think you'd be nuts to stray from QuarkXPress or InDesign, so that's not really an avenue a dev should pursue.)
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Ancient Otter 29 November, 2013, 10:27:18 PM
I doubt it. For apps of this complexity, you'd need a staggering amount of money and I just can't see the cash being raised on Kickstarter.

What kind of money are we talking here? As I've seen before, sometimes KS campaigns can raise crazy amounts of money, like a million dollars for a boardgame - see Ogre (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/ogre-designers-edition) (goal $20,000, amount raised $923680) and Kingdom Death: Monster (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/poots/kingdom-death-monster) (goal $35000, amount raised $2,049,721).

Here (http://www.kickstarter.com/discover/categories/technology/most-funded#p4) are the most funded technology projects on Kickstarter, if you want to check out how the programming projects stack up.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: IndigoPrime 30 November, 2013, 01:43:42 PM
At the high-end, those seem more like one-offs than the norm (and the very high-end bits of funding are more often for products that have some seriously popular mainstream appeal). I just don't see anyone raising many hundreds of thousands of dollars for an Illustrator alternative that could go head to head with the Adobe product. It's also a truly colossal undertaking. Even with a large team of amazing developers, you're talking many months of development to get anything that would resemble the tool people might want. Additionally, you'd have the problem of feature creep that Adobe itself has suffered from. What should an Illustrator alternative be? Who should it appeal to? What features should it have? Everyone will have their own personal favourites, and that in itself could cause all kinds of issues.

In a sense, Macaw (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/macaw/macaw-the-code-savvy-web-design-tool?ref=category) is perhaps the closest equivalent to what you're talking about: a successful design app project, aimed at taking over from existing companies, and doing it better (in this case, for web design). But even then, Macaw has a razor-sharp focus that an Illustrator alternative probably wouldn't have, if it were to appeal to all. And if it weren't, you basically end up with Sketch anyway, which we already have (at least if you're on the Mac, although perhaps Windows equivalents might exist).
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: radiator 09 June, 2014, 05:16:17 PM
Dipped my toe into Photoshop CC.

Very first time using it, go to use the Liquify filter, which immediately crashes my computer. Yeah, I'll stick with my rock-solid CS5 (which crashes about once every six months), thanks.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Banners 16 June, 2015, 09:15:55 AM
With the latest version out today, this stubborn old hold-out has once more been tempted to abandon his CS6 version and sign up for InDesign CC (http://www.adobe.com/uk/products/indesign/features.html).

My reason is not for the potential of any new features (which remain underwhelming to me), but that a subscription comes with access to TypeKit (https://typekit.com/). I'm about to spend around £50 on a couple of fonts – which would be the same price as three months' access to CC, where I'd get the fonts throw-in.

But the catch is, of course, that along with all the issues about things like losing access to CC files and the inability to upgrade InDesign, Illustrator and Photoshop as a package, I would also lose access to these fonts if I ended the subscription. And, ultimately, I keep coming back to the thought that the limiting factor in my design work is not the software I use but my own creativity and (in)ability. So, despite the temptation, it seems that Adobe have once more failed to take earn my money.

I upgraded to CS6 almost three years ago exactly. Given that timeframe, it would now seem a sensible time to upgrade again. Indeed, if the new InDesign CC and new versions of Photoshop and Illustrator were still available as a retail/download version, I'd buy them all straight away (ideally as a Suite, like in ye olde days). I would buy a retail version as I would be in control, and my livelihood would not be dependent on a monthly 'tax' paid to an arrogant and ignorant corporation that puts shareholders rather than customers first.

But every time I think about and then resist taking the plunge, l wonder how long it will be until I eventually succumb or am forced to sign up to CC. Are there many CS6 hold-outs left?
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Jim_Campbell 16 June, 2015, 09:35:35 AM
But every time I think about and then resist taking the plunge, l wonder how long it will be until I eventually succumb or am forced to sign up to CC. Are there many CS6 hold-outs left?

Unsurprisingly, there's me. I'm still waiting for a few bugs to be ironed out and features (that are on the development roadmap) to be added to Affinity Designer and I'm going to attempt to move my workflow to it entirely and just keep CS6 for any clients that absolutely must have live Illustrator files.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Steve Green 16 June, 2015, 09:46:22 AM
Yep, still on CS6 here.

90% of my work in CS is After Effects. One company has moved over to CC that I work with. Most other people I work with are CS6 or older.

I'm holding out as long as I possibly can - the main obstacle is that AE only saves back one version, for collaborative work.

The actual updates to AE have been pretty average from what I've seen so far.

From what I've read, they're falling short in subscribers

http://techcrunch.com/2015/03/17/adobe-picks-up-517k-creative-cloud-subscribers-in-its-fq1/ (http://techcrunch.com/2015/03/17/adobe-picks-up-517k-creative-cloud-subscribers-in-its-fq1/)

Grasping at straws that they might relent and re-introduce some form of CS for the holdouts - I can't imagine they'd jack prices on CC this quickly before users are too deeply embedded.


Autodesk are doing the same rental nonsense, but their monthly fee is a lot more than Adobe's - good luck with that one.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Jim_Campbell 16 June, 2015, 09:52:19 AM
Grasping at straws that they might relent and re-introduce some form of CS for the holdouts - I can't imagine they'd jack prices on CC this quickly before users are too deeply embedded.

As I said somewhere upthread — I have no problem with people who think (usually incorrectly) that CC is a better deal for them. Subscription model works for them? Fine. However, I don't see why they couldn't roll up all the CC updates once a year and issue a new CS version on a traditional retail perpetual license.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Steve Green 16 June, 2015, 10:24:22 AM
Yeah, I'm the same - there's a lot of blinkered people about who only see 'it only costs me x amount a month' and can't get there head around someone wanting a larger annual upgrade.

CC is fine for ramping up teams for companies, and if someone really wants it I wouldn't want to stop them.

I'd just like the option that's served me well for years to still be there, without Adobe patting me on the head, and saying 'it's simpler this way'
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Banners 16 June, 2015, 11:53:23 AM
Cheers, fellas.

I could see how a subscription could get you access to premium things like Typekit, cloud features, storage, screen-sharing (which we used to have for free), web publishing and the new Stock images etc., but I'm sat here wanting to give Adobe several hundred quid for new versions of their software, and they don't want to know...
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: SuperSurfer 16 June, 2015, 01:09:41 PM
I'm on Adobe Creative Suite 5 mainly using Indesign, Photoshop and a little bit of Illustrator. All those CS5 programs do what I need them to do.

At the company where I do the bulk of my work we upgraded a few months ago to Creative Cloud. Other than being 'up-to-date' I can't really think what the advantages are. In fact the Macs were upgraded as we couldn't go beyond CS4.

I'm nearing the stage where I will have to upgrade my own computer and software as my Mac is almost ten years old. My operating system is ancient so I can't use recent versions of Safari browser which means some websites don't load properly and when they do, it is with limited functionality and so less security. As a stopgap measure I downloaded an alternative browser but that makes web browsing quite slow.

When I do upgrade my computer I can't see an alternative to going for CC. I do need to be compatible with software used with my main place of work.

But the catch is, of course, that along with all the issues about things like losing access to CC files and the inability to upgrade InDesign, Illustrator and Photoshop as a package, I would also lose access to these fonts if I ended the subscription.
Lose access to fonts yes, but you won't lose access to CC files. Once CC is up and running there isn't really any noticeable difference to working the 'old' way. Your files exist on your computer or server unless you put them on the cloud. I think you can export CC Indesign files as .IDML (or whatever the current format is) and open those with older versions of Indesign though you might lose some formatting functionality.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Banners 16 June, 2015, 01:20:49 PM
: SuperSurfer
I think you can export CC Indesign files as .IDML (or whatever the current format is) and open those with older versions of Indesign though you might lose some formatting functionality.

That's the theory, but say in a year I decide to cancel CC because they put the price up, and go back to CS6, it's not really practical for me to export 100s of design files. Also, I wouldn't like to trust that the exports would be entirely reliable.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Jim_Campbell 16 June, 2015, 01:26:32 PM
When I do upgrade my computer I can't see an alternative to going for CC. I do need to be compatible with software used with my main place of work.

You can still buy CS6, if that helps…

Cheers

Jim
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: SuperSurfer 16 June, 2015, 02:27:09 PM
…say in a year I decide to cancel CC because they put the price up, and go back to CS6, it's not really practical for me to export 100s of design files. Also, I wouldn't like to trust that the exports would be entirely reliable.
Reverting after a while would indeed be a pain. I can think of one newer function in Indesign which doesn't export. No doubt there are more.

You can still buy CS6, if that helps…
Surprised Adobe are still selling CS6.
CS6 £1,227.54
CC £328.02 per year (but who knows how much in future)

Shelling out on a new Mac and £1227.54 is scary.

I reckon I upgrade software roughly every four years. Which kind of makes it seem worthwhile for me to go for CC with the benefit of being compatible with work. And then they will have me firmly by the you-know-whats.

Must say I am not looking forward to upgrading computer and the hassle of transferring files. Not even sure which Mac I will go for.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Jim_Campbell 16 June, 2015, 02:43:56 PM
Must say I am not looking forward to upgrading computer and the hassle of transferring files.

There's no hassle, except with Adobe software, which shouldn't be a problem if you're installing a freshly purchased version. Once you have your new Mac, deauthorise and then uninstall your Adobe applications.* Run Time Machine.** Hook the TM drive up to your new machine and migrate.

The first time you boot your new Mac up, it will ask you if you want to migrate from another machine. Click 'Yes', attach the TM drive and leave it. If you don't want to do it the first time you boot up, simply run 'Migration Assistant' at any time and it will ask you if you have a Time Machine back-up you want to use. It's brilliant.

Cheers

Jim


*You can't migrate them. Even if you wanted to carry on running your old version, you still need to do this, and then install on the new machine from the original disks.

**Given the age of your machine, it's possible you're running an OS older than 10.5, which was when Time Machine was introduced. However, 10.5 runs on the pre-Intel Macs and you can pick up the boxed disks pretty cheaply on eBay.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Steve Green 16 June, 2015, 02:49:50 PM
Also, if you use AE you can only save back one version, so currently you'd have to save back from 2015 to 2014 to CC and then to CS6.

Not sure about Premiere - hopefully the other apps are marginally less idiotic.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: SuperSurfer 16 June, 2015, 03:09:03 PM
Thanks for that Jim.

In the meantime I have a whole load of file tidying to do on this machine.

Last time I upgraded I used IIRC Apple Migration Assistant which was good. Except I mistakenly thought it would transfer programs, emails and that I could transfer my work files manually. It pretty much cloned everything on my previous Mac.

I am on 10.6.8. I used to use Time Machine until my external drive filled up. I have a still boxed 2TB external drive I am yet to hook up.

Yes I have read your last blog post and I fear I will pay the price for not heeding that important advice.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Jim_Campbell 26 June, 2015, 06:36:36 PM
Just a quick heads-up for the CS6 hold-outs: if you were thinking of buying new Apple hardware, do it now, while it still ships with Yosemite (OSX 10.10). As it presently stands, CS6 requires Java 6 to run, which El Capitan (10.11) unequivocally does not allow. Photoshop CS6 can be coaxed into sort-of running OK, but Illustrator CS6 is basically borked.

There is, by all accounts, a command-line hack that gets things running with Java SE 8 (don't ask me, I don't know what the difference is) but I'm certainly not about to rely on fucking about in Terminal to get my work-critical software to run.

Obviously, 10.11 is still in beta, so it's possible that this may be fixed by the time the OS gets an official release, but I really can't see Adobe spending much in the way of resources to fix an issue whose only downside is that it forces CS6 customers to move to Creative Cloud.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Jim_Campbell 29 June, 2015, 07:17:28 AM
Update on the 10.11 situation: getting Java 6 to work with 10.11 is (apparently) on the development schedule and it should be working by the time of the official release. Note that this is either being done on the Apple side, or the Java side and is not being worked on by Adobe.

However,* 10.11 will definitely be the last version of OSX that supports Java 6, meaning that CS6 will effectively by dead when 10.12 ships some time next year. CS5 reportedly runs fine on 10.11 already, being less reliant on Java for its internal workings and may be a better bet as a CC alternative under 10.12.

Cheers

Jim

*Fuck you, Michael Gove.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Jim_Campbell 09 July, 2015, 12:18:16 PM
Affinity Photo is out of beta and available in the App Store (Mac only, 10.7 or higher) for the bargain price of £29.99. I'm not convinced the brush engine is good enough (yet) to displace MangaStudio as a drawing/painting application, but for general purpose photo processing/re-touching/manipulation it's going to easily replace Photoshop for the majority of users.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Banners 21 August, 2015, 09:03:49 AM
InDesign CC now being installed without many basic fonts (http://indesignsecrets.com/adobe-drops-fonts-leaves-users-stranded.php).

: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Jim_Campbell 21 August, 2015, 09:11:06 AM
InDesign CC now being installed without many basic fonts (http://indesignsecrets.com/adobe-drops-fonts-leaves-users-stranded.php).

Uh. WHAT?!

Cheers

Jim
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: IndigoPrime 21 August, 2015, 10:15:15 AM
"Use Typekit for everything. Love and hugs, Adobe."

Not the smartest decision. Minimise the install, perhaps, but install a better core.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Jim_Campbell 30 June, 2016, 09:55:46 AM
Affinity Designer is now in free Beta for Windows (https://affinity.serif.com/en-gb/windows/).

AD is a credible replacement for Illustrator, offering the vast majority of the AI feature set, plus the decent type controls and a colour-managed CMYK workflow, which are lacking in the vast majority of other Illustrator wannabes.

No Windows schedule for Affinity Photo yet, but it's an equally credible Photoshop alternative.

Release of their InDesign challenger has slipped to late '16/ early '17, unfortunately, but I'd sooner they got it right than ship a half-finished release.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Banners 30 June, 2016, 11:08:17 AM
Ooooo. Interesting. Thanks for the heads up!
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: mightybren 07 July, 2016, 01:09:32 PM
I've been looking for an Illustrator alternative since I upgraded Mac OS and CS5 stopped behaving properly. I'd been holding out for a while, and when I saw Creative Cloud I just thought "No". Especially since I replaced Photoshop with more specialised web design tools a long time ago.

How does Affinity Designer compare? It looks awesome from the website, but would appreciate a second opinion from a professional :)

I've mostly use Illustrator for graphic design work, and some web design, as well as illustration. Decent typography is VERY important to me. I'm the kinda person who gets annoyed when I see badly kerned signage in public spaces.

I've got everything illustration covered with a copy of Manga Studio and a whole suite of wonderful tools on my iPad, so not a huge concern for me.

So what do you think? Does it replace Illustrator, or are there any gotchas?
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Jim_Campbell 07 July, 2016, 01:45:39 PM
I'm broadly confident that, if I had to, I could move my entire lettering workflow from Illustrator to Designer.

Obviously, my work is almost entirely centred around handling type, and Designer's (current) lack of an equivalent to Illustrator's Glyphs palette would be a notable inconvenience, but practically every other feature I considered a deal-breaker has been implemented since the original Mac beta.

Some of its interface choices seem counter-intuitive, and fighting against twenty years of Illustrator muscle memory is frustrating, but I can't think of any major features that are missing. And it's cheap, so may be worth a punt.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: Jim_Campbell 07 July, 2016, 01:56:48 PM
To late to edit my original post: Designer also makes a decent fist of opening .ai files. It doesn't always interpret text boxes exactly right, but every file I've tried it on is definitely useable once open in Designer.

Also, it's from Serif, whose previous offerings haven't impressed me much but who've been around for years, so aren't likely to disappear overnight.

They're also promising fully-featured versions of both Designer and (the equally impressive) Photo for iPad Pro, with Apple Pencil support.
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: mightybren 07 July, 2016, 02:47:48 PM
Thanks Jim :) The price is definitely attractive, along with the backwards compatibility! If Serif can deliver it definitely makes me wonder what Adobe are trying to achieve with their price points.
Lack of Glyphs would be a small inconvenience but presumably I can copy and paste these from elsewhere :)

I'll give the free trial a go and see how I get on. Other than a learning curve it sounds like a winner. Appreciate the recommendation! Loosing Illustrator CS5 felt like loosing a limb! :lol:
Cheers!
: Re: Adobe Creative Cloud (or: Monopolies in Action)
: pauljholden 15 November, 2017, 12:39:42 PM
HO BOY!

I wanted to cancel my adobe creative cloud (that I signed up for just to try, little did I know what would happen next...)

https://www.patreon.com/posts/15386255