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General Chat => Film & TV => : sheridan 15 April, 2019, 11:09:22 AM

: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 15 April, 2019, 11:09:22 AM
The first episode was aired at 9 EST (which I think was 20:00 EDT and definitely was 02:00 this morning).  For more daylight-minded people in GMT/BST I believe UK broadcasters are showing it again at a 21:00 this evening.


Let the speculation commence!


p.s. the producers put together a playlist of music which (they say) holds some secrets about how the series is going to go - I'll try to dig out a link later.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: sheridan 15 April, 2019, 11:16:11 AM
p.p.s. I would suggest spoiler tags are used for a day or two after an episode airs in the UK to reflect modern viewing habits, particularly on major revelations and plots developments.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: radiator 15 April, 2019, 06:31:04 PM
Saw it last night. Unfortunately we had agreed to watch it at a friends house so they could show off their new 65" TV, and the factory settings - massively overclocked contrast and sharpening and that abysmal motion smoothing/interpolation feature - spoiled the experience somewhat. I can't stand that motion smoothing thing, it makes everything look like it's running at 1.5x speed and like it was shot on a cheap camcorder, and for some reason makes the special effects look really jarring - the scenes of Jon and Dany and the dragons looked like outtakes from the 90s movie Dragonheart. We had to rewatch most of the episode when we got home.

As for the episode, it was as expected - thoroughly entertaining nonsense.

The show's days as a genuinely excellent drama series are so far behind it at this point I think the best outcome is that they deliver some spectacle and don't completely screw up the landing.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: sheridan 16 April, 2019, 01:38:14 AM
As for the episode, it was as expected - thoroughly entertaining nonsense.

The show's days as a genuinely excellent drama series are so far behind it at this point I think the best outcome is that they deliver some spectacle and don't completely screw up the landing.

It's certainly lost something since they had to diverge from GRRM's writing.  Having said that, it's also gained something with the increase in budget and scope since those far-off days when each episode had to make do with a budget of just $5,000,000...  Seriously though - it's a classic three-act structure, with set-up/exposition, conflict/rising action and climax/resolution.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: radiator 16 April, 2019, 06:03:55 PM
As for the episode, it was as expected - thoroughly entertaining nonsense.

The show's days as a genuinely excellent drama series are so far behind it at this point I think the best outcome is that they deliver some spectacle and don't completely screw up the landing.

It's certainly lost something since they had to diverge from GRRM's writing.  Having said that, it's also gained something with the increase in budget and scope since those far-off days when each episode had to make do with a budget of just $5,000,000...  Seriously though - it's a classic three-act structure, with set-up/exposition, conflict/rising action and climax/resolution.

I'm really not a fan of how a lot of the nuance and moral ambiguity has been stripped away to (pretty much) leave us with a cast of clear cut 'good guys' and 'bad guys', and how those good guys are essentially now superheroes who are impervious to the laws of physics. A lot of the gritty realism* that defined the early seasons has been jettisoned entirely in favour of shallow spectacle.

It's odd, for example, that the showrunners are evidently so afraid of their pet favourite characters doing anything too dark vs the books, and always tweak the narrative so they can present characters like Tyrion as totally virtuous, when the most enduring and iconic TV characters of the last 10-15 years have all been various degrees of monster (Tony Soprano, Walter White, Don Draper) whom we (somewhat) love and root for regardless. I feel like the Tyrion of seasons 1-3 could have been one of those kinds of characters if they had stayed the course instead of neutering and sanitising him from season 4 on.

Another example is Jon Snow, whose murder in the books is pretty much justified and is the direct and inevitable result of his own actions (ie compromising the Nights Watch's neutrality for personal reasons), making for a far more interesting plot development, whereas the show presented it as a far less interesting cut and dry - Jon was 100% right, his killers were evil and wrong. As a result, Jon is quite a bland, Harry Potter like figure in the TV show.

*Before anyone says it, yes, it has dragons in it, but seasons 1-4 feel infinitely more realistic, where a simple mistake could cost a character their head, a moral misjudgement had severe and far reaching consequences, and a brutal plot twist always felt totally earned in retrospect. The show in its current form doesn't seem to really adhere to any kind of logic or plausibility - the amount of miraculous last minute saves and improbable rescues (the latest being Theon and Yara in this ep) just defy plausibility to the point where you just kind of have to roll your eyes and move on. It used to be a show that turned genre conventions on their heads, whereas now it wallows in tired action/adventure cliche.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Funt Solo 16 April, 2019, 07:21:06 PM
++SEASON 7 SPOILERS HERE++

My least favorite part of season #7 was where Aria single-handedly removes the Freys from the plot by poisoning an entire clan.  Prior to this she's also managed to secretly bake Frey's sons into pies.

I thought the whole point of the faceless assassins was that they secretly offed people - secretly.  So's as you might think it was an accident.  What value was there in secretly baking the sons (presumably in a kitchen - where you'd have to chop them up - a busy castle kitchen - chopping famous people up)?  Nobody sipped the wine early? Etc.

With the diversion from the books (due, one assumes, to the author's apparent writer's block) has come a diversion from subtlety and (intrinsic) logic. 

Dragons are zombies are fine, as long as they follow a narrative logic.  But how do you secretly bake people in a busy castle? 
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: radiator 16 April, 2019, 07:47:31 PM
The pie thing is in the books, but it's a different character that does it and it's only alluded to (I certainly didn't pick up on it on first read). It also takes place in a totally different location.

The incident/retribution of the Freys hasn't taken place yet in the books, but it's heavily foreshadowed* that there will be a second Red Wedding at Riverrun where the Brotherhood Without Banners (a formerly idealistic band of merry men that has been corrupted into a kind of nihilistic death cult by its new leader - a reanimated Catelyn Stark now known as Lady Stoneheart) will likely be slaughtering a lot of Freys at a wedding feast, possibly with the assistance of a certain direwolf...

*Again, something I totally missed on my first reading. Though they certainly have their problems, I think a large part of the reason the latter two novels in the series are so dismissed/underrated is because there is a lot of very cool stuff being set up behind the scenes that is easy to miss if you aren't paying full attention.

The whole treatment of Arya is very different - I suspect that in the books (should they ever get finished) she won't be the one to cross many names of her list as in the show - her story is much darker and if anything shows the futility of revenge. Her actually getting any kind of satisfaction through vengeance seems too predictable and neat, and is one of those more conventional narrative tropes that the books generally subverts in some way.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: sheridan 18 April, 2019, 09:16:18 PM
Love seeing Wil(iam)* Simpson's name in the credits...


*He was Will Simpson when he appeared in 2000AD, so I never get used to calling him William now...
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: sheridan 18 April, 2019, 09:17:15 PM
Speaking of credits - did anybody else notice that the credits for wolf special effects units rivalled that of the dragons despite them not having appeared in the first episode of the series?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: edgeworthy 19 April, 2019, 12:05:06 AM
Probably the best thing about episode one was that the writers appear to have grasped the North/ South British Divide.

Summed up with the "Who does this posh southern bird with her fancy dragons think she is!?" attitude the North had to Dany.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: radiator 19 April, 2019, 05:33:06 PM
Speaking of credits - did anybody else notice that the credits for wolf special effects units rivalled that of the dragons despite them not having appeared in the first episode of the series?

That bodes well for later in the season! A great tragedy of the TV show is how sidelined the wolves have become. Perfectly understandable from a production point of view, given how difficult/expensive they must be to film, but a shame nonetheless. Would have been amazing to see Robb Stark riding into battle with a grizzly bear-sized Grey Wind at his side, as in the books...!
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Funt Solo 19 April, 2019, 06:59:23 PM
Wolves:  I saw one of the "making of" bits from season #7, and the FX guys were saying that they basically had a budget decision to make of "giant or wolf", and went with the giant.  They could not afford both.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: radiator 19 April, 2019, 07:18:07 PM
I really hope we haven't seen the last of Nymeria (Arya's wolf) in the TV show, but I suspect that we might have.

The brief meeting/farewell between her and Arya last season seemed pretty conclusive, but if so what an underwhelming tying up of a thread that started way back in season 1 episode 2...

(needless to say, but it's very different in the books, where Nymeria and her wolf pack are a constant background menace, and its clearly leading to some almighty payoff later down the line.).
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: JayzusB.Christ 19 April, 2019, 10:11:59 PM
Probably the best thing about episode one was that the writers appear to have grasped the North/ South British Divide.

Summed up with the "Who does this posh southern bird with her fancy dragons think she is!?" attitude the North had to Dany.

Yep, I love that aspect to it too, and wonder if US viewers manage to distinguish a gentile southern accent from a down-to-earth Northern one.

Seems a bit strange, though, that upside-down,-Northern-Ireland is Dorn. Last time I crossed the border I didn't see too many sun-kissed, dusky assassins. Makes me wish they could really tow thus country into warmer latitudes.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: radiator 20 April, 2019, 01:20:09 AM
Yep, I love that aspect to it too, and wonder if US viewers manage to distinguish a gentile southern accent from a down-to-earth Northern one.

I live in the US and can tell you for a fact that the majority of Americans do not distinguish between the Northern/Southern accents on the show, no.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: edgeworthy 20 April, 2019, 02:43:04 AM
Yep, I love that aspect to it too, and wonder if US viewers manage to distinguish a gentile southern accent from a down-to-earth Northern one.

I live in the US and can tell you for a fact that the majority of Americans do not distinguish between the Northern/Southern accents on the show, no.

Which is odd since everyone in Britain sort of notices that the writers appear to have actually grasped the North/ South divide ...

... you are missing out on a lot if you didn't understand the North's reaction to Dany essentially being "Who does this posh southern bird with her fancy dragons think she is!?"

I could call it subtle and nuanced, only it isn't at all, its about a subtle as a lead pipe.
(D&D and GRRM are to be commended for their understanding of the concept, probably since much of GoT is drawn from the Wars of the Roses)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: JayzusB.Christ 20 April, 2019, 08:40:23 AM
Yep, I love that aspect to it too, and wonder if US viewers manage to distinguish a gentile southern accent from a down-to-earth Northern one.

I live in the US and can tell you for a fact that the majority of Americans do not distinguish between the Northern/Southern accents on the show, no.

Thanks!

Makes GoT all the more impressive when you realise its creators pay attention to a detail that most of its viewers won't notice.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: broodblik 20 April, 2019, 09:36:01 AM
For me the first episode was a re-introduction to the characters that will make up the finale.  GoT overtime has changed but for me this is still one of the best series ever to grace the small screen.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: radiator 20 April, 2019, 08:12:53 PM
Couple of random predictions for the remaining episodes (this isn’t based on leaks or anything like that, just my own speculation):

I have a strong suspicion that before the end of the season Sean Bean will return in a cameo as Ned Stark in a flashback/dream/vision sequence. No real reason other than it just seems like something they would do, what with it being the finale and with all the callbacks to season 1.

The line in episode 1 where Varys, Davos and the others are discussing the prospect of Westeros finally being ruled by a ‘just man and a noble woman’ or whatever it was is foreshadowing, but not for Jon and Danaeyrs, but the coupling of either Sansa and Tyrion or Arya and Gendry (I don’t think Jon and Danaerys make it out the season).
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: radiator 22 April, 2019, 08:52:58 PM
I thought last night's episode was pretty decent. All build up/calm before the storm. Couple of nice moments, a lot of cheese, and one very uncomfortable/odd scene - trust me, you'll know it when you get to it.

Next week is going to be the big battle - expect a lot of major deaths. I'm reasonably confident that Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Jaime and presumably Sam, Gilly & Baby Sam are safe, but aside from that all bets are off. I would actually be amazed if any of the following didn't die:

Bran
Theon
Jorah
Brienne
Beric
Grey Worm


I also wouldn't rule out Arya, Varys and Tormund.

I actually hope that the body count won't be as big as all that - I don't want the finale of the series to be a total downer because there's only 3 named characters left alive.


Something I've been wondering in anticiaption for this season is whether the white walker threat will be dealt with a few episodes before the end, and the last few episodes will be the showdown with Cersei/Euron and the Golden Company. It wouldn't surprise me, but it would seem weirdly anticlimactic if they go that way with it.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Dudley 22 April, 2019, 09:17:54 PM
Death predictions:

Surely dead (because nowhere left to go):
Grey Worm
Brienne
Theon
Varys
Tormund
Davos

Probably dead:
Gendry
Bran
Jorah

Possible curveballs:
Dany
Night King
Tyrion
Arya

Safe in their plot armour:
Sansa
Jon
The Hound
Jamie
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Jim_Campbell 22 April, 2019, 10:19:06 PM
I’ll be mildly surprised if the battle is wrapped up in one episode — reports are that they did fifty-five consecutive night shoots for this. People have shot feature films in less time!

And, yes, now that it’s been mentioned, they do seem to be leaning heavily on the whole kill the night king and the rest will fall* thing, so maybe they ARE going to wrap that entire plotline up mid-season and then have everyone regroup for a final showdown with Cersei**



* I have a fiver on Sam to do the honours.

** I have another fiver says we get to see those elephants she was banging on about.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Jim_Campbell 22 April, 2019, 10:19:52 PM
It’s like the fucking Mueller Report round here…!
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Tiplodocus 22 April, 2019, 10:25:01 PM
I mostly enjoyed the second half of that episode. But anytime I find myself having to calculate the age of a character in a sex scene, then I know the writers and director and producers have made a bad call
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: radiator 23 April, 2019, 12:58:54 AM
I mostly enjoyed the second half of that episode. But anytime I find myself having to calculate the age of a character in a sex scene, then I know the writers and director and producers have made a bad call

Yeah. weird choice, especially for that character.

If you want to really confuse yourself about the timeline of the show, think about the relative ages of various characters compared to that of Baby Samwell (who was born in season 2 and is still a toddler)  :-\

Regarding the Hound, yes, he has to survive for various reasons - the main one presumably being so he can conquer his fear of fire and use Beric's flaming sword to kill the Mountain in a future episode (I suspect Beric will sacrifice himself to save or possibly resurrect him in next week's episode).
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: radiator 23 April, 2019, 01:04:25 AM
Yep, I love that aspect to it too, and wonder if US viewers manage to distinguish a gentile southern accent from a down-to-earth Northern one.

I live in the US and can tell you for a fact that the majority of Americans do not distinguish between the Northern/Southern accents on the show, no.

Thanks!

Makes GoT all the more impressive when you realise its creators pay attention to a detail that most of its viewers won't notice.

Trust me - most Americans I know can't even distinguish between Aussie, Kiwi, South African and English accents, and also think Irish and Scottish accents sound the same.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: radiator 23 April, 2019, 01:12:31 AM
Death predictions:

Surely dead (because nowhere left to go):
Grey Worm
Brienne
Theon
Varys
Tormund
Davos


You know, despite being a relatively pointless character in the grand scheme of things (his primary role in the books was to be a bystander to whatever Stannis and Melisandre were up to at any given time, something the TV adaptation arguably didn't need) I have a huge soft spot for Davos. He's one of the most guileless and down to earth characters in both the books and show, and I absolutely love Liam Cunningham's portrayal of him (and Cunningham always seems like a genuinely nice bloke in interviews) so he's one of the characters I'm really rooting for to make it to the end of the series alive.

But then, they seem to have introduced a little girl who looks like Shireen who would be perfect for Davos to die a heroic death saving (as he couldn't Shireen)....  :|
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Funt Solo 23 April, 2019, 03:55:36 AM
I mostly enjoyed the second half of that episode. But anytime I find myself having to calculate the age of a character in a sex scene, then I know the writers and director and producers have made a bad call

The actor is 22 and the character she's playing is 18.  (Book) Gendry is 23, and that actor is 31.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Tjm86 23 April, 2019, 08:16:39 AM
It’s like the fucking Mueller Report round here…!

   :lol:   Chortle
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: sheridan 23 April, 2019, 09:19:49 AM
I live in the US and can tell you for a fact that the majority of Americans do not distinguish between the Northern/Southern accents on the show, no.

Thanks!

Makes GoT all the more impressive when you realise its creators pay attention to a detail that most of its viewers won't notice.

Trust me - most Americans I know can't even distinguish between Aussie, Kiwi, South African and English accents, and also think Irish and Scottish accents sound the same.


True - went to California in the 1980s and our British (English) accents were mistaken for Australian all the time.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: JamesC 23 April, 2019, 01:15:47 PM
I really enjoyed last night's episode. I love seeing these characters meet up after everything they've been through. There were so many great moments (and actually Arya's quickie before it kicks off didn't seem too odd to me).
I can't believe it's going to be a case of Winterfell vs the dead and then the survivors all set off to King's Landing.
I have a feeling we'll see some surprises from Cersei's lot next week. Actually, I think the Golden Company will arrive to fight the white walker's despite Cersei.
I don't care who dies as long as Bronn lives!
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: radiator 23 April, 2019, 05:24:27 PM
I don't care who dies as long as Bronn lives!

Less is more with that guy. He was great in seasons 1-3 but the last few seasons it really feels like they've had to contrive things for him to do. I prefer his storyline in the books where he doesn't play an active role in the story, but off-screen (off-page?) he is persistent thorn in Cerseis' side - including calling his newborn son Tyrion just to troll her.

Another prediction for next week:

Melisandre is going to show up with R'hllor-follower reinforcements from Volantis.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Funt Solo 23 April, 2019, 05:52:22 PM
++SPOILERS IN THE OPEN++

But wait - we need lists!  Who's currently holding Valyrian steel (and therefore has at least a chance not to get iced by a White Walker in single combat)?

Jon Snow - Longclaw
Brienne of Tarth - Oathkeeper
Jaime Lannister - Widow's Wail
Jorah Mormont - Heartsbane
Arya Stark - [Littlefinger's dagger]

That means that Theon's probably had his chips as his plan is to lie in wait for the Knight's King: armed only with his sense of utter loss.



: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Funt Solo 23 April, 2019, 06:01:21 PM
Something I've been wondering in anticiaption for this season is whether the white walker threat will be dealt with a few episodes before the end, and the last few episodes will be the showdown with Cersei/Euron and the Golden Company. It wouldn't surprise me, but it would seem weirdly anticlimactic if they go that way with it.

++SPOILERS IN THE OPEN++

They laid it on pretty thick this episode that a bigger issue (even if the Cersei threat is eliminated) may be that Daenerys is ruthlessly power-hungry and sees everything in terms of her desire for the Iron Throne.  As Jon confides his heritage to the woman he's fallen in love with (his aunt), she only sees it in terms of a threat to her position.  As she points this out to him, he looks all confused like he never even thought of that aspect of things.

I like how this series is shifting the sands beneath the feet of several "heroes", to leave us wondering who deserves to live.  (See also: Tyrion's fallibility.  Arya's ruthlessness.)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: JamesC 23 April, 2019, 06:02:20 PM
Well they’re making loads of Dragonglass weapons. I’m not sure what Valerian steel does that dragonglass doesn’t. Has this been explained?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: radiator 23 April, 2019, 06:13:45 PM
Well they’re making loads of Dragonglass weapons. I’m not sure what Valerian steel does that dragonglass doesn’t. Has this been explained?

I always imagined dragonglass as something you could craft arrowheads and small daggers out of, whereas Valyrian steel can be used to forge larger weapons like swords (and even, in the books - an entire suit of armour, apparently).

However the show is showing them forging axes from dragonglass, so who knows?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: radiator 23 April, 2019, 06:17:27 PM
Something I've been wondering in anticiaption for this season is whether the white walker threat will be dealt with a few episodes before the end, and the last few episodes will be the showdown with Cersei/Euron and the Golden Company. It wouldn't surprise me, but it would seem weirdly anticlimactic if they go that way with it.

++SPOILERS IN THE OPEN++

They laid it on pretty thick this episode that a bigger issue (even if the Cersei threat is eliminated) may be that Daenerys is ruthlessly power-hungry and sees everything in terms of her desire for the Iron Throne.  As Jon confides his heritage to the woman he's fallen in love with (his aunt), she only sees it in terms of a threat to her position.  As she points this out to him, he looks all confused like he never even thought of that aspect of things.

I like how this series is shifting the sands beneath the feet of several "heroes", to leave us wondering who deserves to live.  (See also: Tyrion's fallibility.  Arya's ruthlessness.)

I could be wrong, but I see all the bickering and jostling between Jon/Sansa/Arya/Dany/Tyrion as pretty hollow, and just there to provide a bit of interpersonal drama while we wait for the big battles. When the chips are down, I think they will all ultimately do the right thing.

It was the same thing with the rubbish Arya, Sansa and Littlefinger storyline last season - did anyone actually believe even for a second that Sansa would side with LF over her family?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Funt Solo 23 April, 2019, 10:24:18 PM
Well they’re making loads of Dragonglass weapons. I’m not sure what Valerian steel does that dragonglass doesn’t. Has this been explained?

I have no idea why I thought Dragonglass only killed wights - but I did.  I'm doomed in the battle to come.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Tiplodocus 23 April, 2019, 11:26:22 PM
Yeah, I had it in my head that Dragonglass worked on the undead and valetian steel on the White Walkers. But thinking back, Sam used Dragonglass dagger on the White walker he killed back in Season 2 (I think).
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: JayzusB.Christ 23 April, 2019, 11:47:37 PM
It’s like the fucking Mueller Report round here…!

I know which blond(e)-haired, power-hungry ruler I prefer thinking about.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Funt Solo 24 April, 2019, 12:29:58 AM
It’s like the fucking Mueller Report round here…!

I know which blond(e)-haired, power-hungry ruler I prefer thinking about.

I also prefer Trump.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: sheridan 24 April, 2019, 01:43:00 AM
It’s like the fucking Mueller Report round here…!

I know which blond(e)-haired, power-hungry ruler I prefer thinking about.


Didn't you hear?  Joffrey's dead.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: broodblik 24 April, 2019, 02:08:23 AM

++SPOILERS IN THE OPEN++

They laid it on pretty thick this episode that a bigger issue (even if the Cersei threat is eliminated) may be that Daenerys is ruthlessly power-hungry and sees everything in terms of her desire for the Iron Throne.  As Jon confides his heritage to the woman he's fallen in love with (his aunt), she only sees it in terms of a threat to her position.  As she points this out to him, he looks all confused like he never even thought of that aspect of things.

I like how this series is shifting the sands beneath the feet of several "heroes", to leave us wondering who deserves to live.  (See also: Tyrion's fallibility.  Arya's ruthlessness.)

So it is possible that the Night King story all wraps in the next two episodes and the real battle can be between Snow and Daenerys. This might be an interesting twist  and quite possible route they might take.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Jim_Campbell 24 April, 2019, 09:44:35 AM
Didn't you hear?  Joffrey's dead.

FAKE NEWS! The failing Westerosi media continues to peddle this lie! So sad. LOSERS.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Link Prime 24 April, 2019, 10:14:57 AM
I've enjoyed these two set-up episodes immensely.
The show runners know exactly what they're doing, racketing the tension up to boiling freezing point before the CGI goodness and decimation of the cast (no doubt including personal favorites Ser Davos and Ser Jorah).

My own pessimistic prediction for the finale; the Night King / White Walkers will win.
We'll be left with a "Dead World" scenario, with the victors returning to the ground once they've accomplished what they set out to do.

By the way - no mention of Kings Landing in episode 2?
Are they already under attack from a second front of the army of the dead?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: JayzusB.Christ 24 April, 2019, 11:10:57 AM
Really enjoyed episode 2 myself.  It's the human touch that makes it - the kind of boozy camaraderie that would make Garth Ennis proud (thankfully with no bonding over a shared love of Laurel and Hardy or Bill fucking Hicks to be seen).

No killing, no torture, and even the sex scene was kind of sweet and touching.  And all throughout, that awful, palpable sense of foreboding permeating everything.

Not sure how they're going to get four more episodes now that the undead are at the door.  Maybe just a 4-hour fight.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: sheridan 24 April, 2019, 11:20:23 AM
Really enjoyed episode 2 myself.  It's the human touch that makes it - the kind of boozy camaraderie that would make Garth Ennis proud (thankfully with no bonding over a shared love of Laurel and Hardy or Bill fucking Hicks to be seen).

No killing, no torture, and even the sex scene was kind of sweet and touching.  And all throughout, that awful, palpable sense of foreboding permeating everything.

Not sure how they're going to get four more episodes now that the undead are at the door.  Maybe just a 4-hour fight.

It's only the first two episodes which are an hour each - from here until the end each one will be one and a half hours!
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: JayzusB.Christ 24 April, 2019, 11:28:36 AM
Really? Genuinely delighted to hear that.  When I was a wee 'un, most films in the cinema were that length, and not a fraction as good as GoT.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: IndigoPrime 24 April, 2019, 02:48:37 PM
No wonder the cast said they were knackered. They've basically filmed two specials and four movies.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: sheridan 24 April, 2019, 03:32:16 PM
No wonder the cast said they were knackered. They've basically filmed two specials and four movies.

Also explains why each episode (on average) cost $15,000,000 to make - guessing the one just gone pulls the average down as it was SFX light (though gotta wonder how much the stars charge for their services these days).
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: radiator 24 April, 2019, 06:16:33 PM
I've enjoyed these two set-up episodes immensely.
The show runners know exactly what they're doing, racketing the tension up to boiling freezing point before the CGI goodness and decimation of the cast (no doubt including personal favorites Ser Davos and Ser Jorah).

My own pessimistic prediction for the finale; the Night King / White Walkers will win.
We'll be left with a "Dead World" scenario, with the victors returning to the ground once they've accomplished what they set out to do.

By the way - no mention of Kings Landing in episode 2?
Are they already under attack from a second front of the army of the dead?

Different people get different things from the show - the 'tits and dragons' crowd just want the spectacle and declare the quieter episodes (like this one) as 'boring', however for me the big event episodes like 'Battle of the Bastards' are among the weaker ones, and are far less interesting on a rewatch, whereas the show is at it's absolute best when its storytelling is more rooted in the characters and their relationships.

When I think about my absolute favourite moments from the entire run of the show, it's generally smaller character moments - Tyrion's trial at the Eyrie (probably the moment I fell in love with the show), Robert and Cersei's heart to heart (probably one of the best-acted scenes in the entire show), Arya training with Syrio Forel as Ned Stark looks on, Arya coldly leaving the Hound for dead, Thoros' monologue about Beric and his faith, Catelyn calling on her bannermen to seize Tyrion, "Stick them with the pointy end", Barristan Selmy's dismissal from the Kingsguard, Theon deciding to burn his letter to Robb, Jaime pouring his heart out to Brienne in the bathhouse and later their farewell when Jaime gives her his sword, pretty much every single dialogue scene between Tyrion and Tywin etc etc.

As for the prediction that it will all end with the good guys losing, I strongly disagree - the series can often seem nihilistic and unconventional, but Martin (and by extension the TV show) isn't setting out to stick two fingers up at the audience - it's a fantasy epic and it's actually following a pretty traditional narrative structure. Expect a bittersweet ending along the lines of Lord of the Rings - the heroes will triumph, but the cost for some of them will be too much to bear.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Funt Solo 24 April, 2019, 06:51:36 PM
Definitely, the relationships are the most memorable:

Sandor Clegane: What the hell are you doing?
Arya Stark: Practising.
Sandor Clegane: What, ways to die?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: radiator 24 April, 2019, 07:09:39 PM
Oh, also - "I will be your champion". Outstanding scene. The whole treatment of Oberyn is one of those cases where what was on screen was actually more impactful and memorable than what was on the page.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Dr Feeley Good 24 April, 2019, 11:21:02 PM
Love that scene, Oberyn was one of my favourite characters, loved Tyrions trial at King's Landing as well....
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Keef Monkey 25 April, 2019, 11:59:45 AM
I've enjoyed these two set-up episodes immensely.
The show runners know exactly what they're doing, racketing the tension up to boiling freezing point before the CGI goodness and decimation of the cast (no doubt including personal favorites Ser Davos and Ser Jorah).

My own pessimistic prediction for the finale; the Night King / White Walkers will win.
We'll be left with a "Dead World" scenario, with the victors returning to the ground once they've accomplished what they set out to do.

By the way - no mention of Kings Landing in episode 2?
Are they already under attack from a second front of the army of the dead?

Different people get different things from the show - the 'tits and dragons' crowd just want the spectacle and declare the quieter episodes (like this one) as 'boring', however for me the big event episodes like 'Battle of the Bastards' are among the weaker ones, and are far less interesting on a rewatch, whereas the show is at it's absolute best when its storytelling is more rooted in the characters and their relationships.

I think you're right, but there also seems a contingent of people who maybe don't really know what they want. During the last season a few people I know complained that they loved the show for the character moments and the quiet episodes and that they were unhappy with the season because they felt the show had become more about spectacle and battles.

Two episodes of character moments and the exact same people are complaining this season is boring because nothing has happened yet.

I do enjoy the more battle-oriented episodes too (they're exceptionally well executed) but I don't agree with them - I think Daenerys' reaction to John's revelation this week held more punch than a dozen stabbings.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Tiplodocus 25 April, 2019, 02:11:08 PM
Surely it's not too much to ask for meaningful character stuff AND tits and dragons?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: radiator 25 April, 2019, 05:06:21 PM
Surely it's not too much to ask for meaningful character stuff AND tits and dragons?

Oh, absolutely. Season 3, episode 4 'And Now His Watch Is Ended' is the show at its peak I would say - political intrigue down in King's Landing, betrayal and violence north of the wall, and one of the very best 'punch the air' moments of the entire series as Dany unleashes the dragon and takes the Unsullied and Astapor from the slavers.

I think you're right, but there also seems a contingent of people who maybe don't really know what they want. During the last season a few people I know complained that they loved the show for the character moments and the quiet episodes and that they were unhappy with the season because they felt the show had become more about spectacle and battles.

Perhaps. I do think the plotting (and especially the character writing) has really suffered since they started to go off book, though. It seems that the plot dictates the characters now rather than the other way around, like the writers of the show know they have to hit plot points A B and C, and then contrive ways to get there, regardless of whether it makes sense or not. It feels quite stilted and forced in a way earlier seasons largely didn't.

The latest episode however was one of the best they've done in years (imo), because it didn't feel overly rushed or awkwardly plotted. It let the characters take centre stage.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: JayzusB.Christ 25 April, 2019, 07:25:19 PM
It's just occurred to me now how nice everyone is being to each other. Jon Snow being laddish with his mates, everyone drinking together and forgiving everyone else (well, almost) and Brienne getting justly rewarded for all her efforts.

I suppose the imminent extinction of all life on their planet must bring it out in them. That said, it doesn't seem to be doing the same for us in our world.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: sheridan 26 April, 2019, 01:10:27 PM
Surely it's not too much to ask for meaningful character stuff AND tits and dragons?


Apparently Martin's dragons have no fixed biological sex - sharing the ability of some real-world reptiles and amphibians to change sex, so it is possible that you could get your wish...
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: IndigoPrime 26 April, 2019, 01:22:29 PM
Huh. I assumed all the dragons in the series were male, intending to make them the last ever dragons (much like many of the mythic creatures 'fade' at the end of LOTR.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Funt Solo 26 April, 2019, 06:43:43 PM
Maybe Illyrio Mopatis has a whole cellar full of dragon eggs.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Link Prime 29 April, 2019, 08:38:24 PM
Dissapointing.

< Explodes into a thousand pieces of ice >
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: radiator 29 April, 2019, 08:46:31 PM
Granted that was a pretty amazing episode of TV and I was on the edge of my seat the whole time… (thankfully the body count of named characters was far lower than I anticipated) but if I were to nitpick - and I will - it kind of both seemed a bit much (in terms of sheer carnage*) and also not enough at the same time…

By ‘not enough’ I mean that for me it didn’t get anywhere close to living up to what had been  teased through visions in previous episodes (a burned-out throne room with snow falling for one) and especially the visuals conjured by Old Nan’s story from back in season 1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P15M4IcZmgA& (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P15M4IcZmgA&)

"Thousands of years ago, there came a night that lasted a generation. Kings froze to death in their castles, same as the shepherds in their huts; and women smothered their babies rather than see them starve, and wept, and felt the tears freeze on their cheeks... In that darkness the White Walkers came for the first time. They swept through cities and kingdoms, riding their dead horses, hunting with their packs of pale spiders big as hounds."

I never figured ‘The Long Night’ would be so literal, and I always imagined the ‘War for the Dawn’ would be an actual war rather than one battle in a single location on a single day. It reminds me a bit of finally seeing the Clone Wars and it not living up to my imagination, and thinking ‘oh, that was it?’.

Despite the spectacle, it all felt a bit underwhelming to me after all the years buildup because the way things unfolded on the show, the war against the dead had almost no impact on the Seven Kingdoms as a whole, and conceptually if you weren’t right there in Winterfell on that particular day, you’d never believe it even took place (if that makes any sense?). I always had it in my head that after the wall fell, we’d pick things up months later, in the midst of the ongoing war, with Winterfell under siege and the dead marching towards King’s Landing.

I’m also not really a fan of the videogame-like logic regarding taking down the White Walkers. It seemed like far too much of an achilles heel and took a lot of the menace away from the White Walkers, and I’m going to assume that all of this stuff (including Arya’s role) is a TV show invention and it won’t happen at all like that in the books. I also think they overcompensated on the Wights - they seemed way too overpowered compared to how they appeared in previous seasons.

But hey, I freely admit that that’s my own preconceptions and expectations colouring things. Taken on it’s own terms it was good stuff.

*Seriously, the way it was presented it seems like out of hundreds of thousands, only a dozen named characters and a handful of others survived. I’m sure thats not literally the case, but they sure make it seem that way.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Jim_Campbell 29 April, 2019, 09:42:21 PM
There are three episodes left and Cersei still to deal with. What on Earth makes you think you won’t see a burned-out throne room?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Jim_Campbell 29 April, 2019, 09:43:57 PM
but if I were to nitpick -

Really? Because that’s so unlike you.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Steve Green 29 April, 2019, 09:53:11 PM
That was enormous fun.

Struggled a bit with following who was where in the gloom, not helped by watching it in daytime or stay off social media just in case but some great sequences

The lighters for the Dothraki and the subsequent snuffing out, Mormont and the Giant

I had to rewind on Arya's attack, when I first watched it I thought there was someone else attacking with her
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: radiator 29 April, 2019, 10:00:07 PM
A fitting end for Melisandre and Theon, I thought.

Two of my favourite characters (in both book and show) and actors on the show.

I didn't even feel upset, as I think they both had suitably heroic deaths and got off pretty lightly (by GoT standards).
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: JayzusB.Christ 29 April, 2019, 10:19:00 PM
I've just finished the whole episode.  My god, that was intense.  Absolutely breathtaking - literally, in fact; I found myself short of breath and with a pounding heart for most of it.

I'll be able to have a proper, rational think about the episode when I've calmed down a bit. But right now, all I can say is, TV doesn't get more spectacular than this. Absolutely blown away.

You just didn't get that kind of thing with The Man from Atlantis and Automan.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: sheridan 29 April, 2019, 10:57:24 PM
I've just finished the whole episode.  My god, that was intense.  Absolutely breathtaking - literally, in fact; I found myself short of breath and with a pounding heart for most of it.

I'll be able to have a proper, rational think about the episode when I've calmed down a bit. But right now, all I can say is, TV doesn't get more spectacular than this. Absolutely blown away.

You just didn't get that kind of thing with The Man from Atlantis and Automan.

Yeah, but it's no Manimal or Tales of the Golden Monkey.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: JayzusB.Christ 29 April, 2019, 11:14:54 PM


Yeah, but it's no Manimal or Tales of the Golden Monkey.

Well, GoT obviously owes a massive debt to the former what with the warging and that, but what show doesn't?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Professor Bear 29 April, 2019, 11:29:57 PM
I thought it dragged on a bit, especially a lot of the cat and mouse bits at the end (fair enough Jon can't past the dragon, but why doesn't it just move forward and squish him?  It waits for him to keep poking his head out and then it just goes "argh" at him.  Likewise Arya for some reason doing a replay of the terrible slasher/horror roles her actress has been lumbered with over the years by hiding from zombies in an old house again.).  But I enjoyed it so it doesn't matter.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: JOE SOAP 30 April, 2019, 12:15:49 AM
Game of Thrones has done better night battles –The Watchers on the Wall– and it was always going to be a challenge shooting/rendering scene after scene of fighting dark, leathery hordes of the undead in pitch blackness, but I suppose the wintry chaos played its part in the brutally unsentimental, silent deaths. I'd liked to have seen the battle graduate to the dawn and seen a bit more as the repetition of dark hacking and slashing shots from Brienne et al. make The Long Night feel a bit of a stretch at 80 minutes – but then again this is still TV and budgets only go so far. A great ending for Arya, though, despite the deadites going down like the Trade Federation's droid army.

The Night King served his purporse in depleting the armies of the North before the end of the story, aka Cersei's plan, and unless there's some other twist involved, taking down the Night king was a good choice and now means it's not quite the same anti-climax – acting purely as an elemental threat with little dynamism he holds nowhere near the meaning of a face-off between the Targaryens and Cersei Lannister.

: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: broodblik 30 April, 2019, 03:55:45 AM
Enjoyed the episode with a satisfactory ending to one of the stories arcs. 
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: JayzusB.Christ 30 April, 2019, 06:53:53 AM
Nice to see Melisandre come good in the end.   Now she can get ready to play Medb in the Horned God film.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Krakajac 30 April, 2019, 08:00:43 AM
Very much enjoyed it.  It's not often that a TV show can get my heart racing.  My wife was beside herself. :)

I agree with Joe - I would have liked to have seen some of the battle fought after dawn.  Being based entirely in the black of night didn't quite have the same effect as 'Hardhome' and/or 'Battle Of The Bastards' did.  But that's a small quibble.

Would have been kinda cool to see the White Walker 'Generals' get involved in a sword-fight or two - but I guess they had the wights fighting for them.

Love the fact that there's essentially still three more GOT 'movies' to watch over the next three weeks. :)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Krakajac 30 April, 2019, 08:18:35 AM
I missed the 'modify post' window of opportunity.  ;)

I'm wondering whether a certain Bravosi swordsman might show up in the last three episodes.  He wasn't seen to die on screen - nor was there any specific description of his death in the book.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Jim_Campbell 30 April, 2019, 08:26:17 AM
He wasn't seen to die on screen

Yeah. It was very noticeable — he was one of only two named characters to 'die' in Season One who didn't die onscreen, the other being Septa Mordane, whose head we later get to see on a spike next to Ned's, so it's probably safe to say 'she dead'.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: JamesC 30 April, 2019, 08:47:08 AM
I thought it was incrdible and in fact it was so tense and exciting that I was relieved when the ad breaks allowed me to take a breather and make a cuppa!
It was really interesting to see Dany so out of her depth. Maybe she won't be quite so keen to rul the north after all.
A good showing for the Lord of Light too - I wonder if Arya and Davos are going to get all religious?
I wish All Bran would so something other than sit about acting mysterious though.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Jim_Campbell 30 April, 2019, 08:53:34 AM
Fandom baffles me. I can sort of take the "It was all too dark" complaint, although I didn't think that was a problem at all — I liked the faceless, all-encompassing darkness of the early stages of this episode dissolving into utter chaos. I thought it provided sharp focus for the indoor stuff with only one or two characters later on.

However, two repeated complaints are: "I can't believe Arya killed the Night King — she's a complete Mary Sue" when we've spent seven fucking seasons where her entire plot arc has been learning how to kill people. And "Meh, they've wrapped up the Night King plot too soon, now it's just going to be about who ends up on the Iron Throne" which is literally the fucking title of the series.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: sheridan 30 April, 2019, 09:19:37 AM
He wasn't seen to die on screen - nor was there any specific description of his death in the book.


I'm also hoping for a reappearance from said personage.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: JamesC 30 April, 2019, 09:20:55 AM
I think someone would complain about however the Night King was killed and about whoever killed him. All I can say is, it worked for me.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Link Prime 30 April, 2019, 09:55:01 AM
Season 8 / Episode 3 episode had some cool moments for sure (from what I could actually discern on a 55" HD TV anyway), but it was a bit of a shark jump for me.

My reading of 'Game of Thrones' has always been in the description- a frivolous game played by narcissistic mortals, but ultimately irrelevant to the millennia old threat beyond the wall, now making it's play (backed up by the onset of a severe ice-age).
That has been the underlying narrative, as the viewer was made aware in the first few minutes of the first scene almost 10 years ago.

That threat was summarily negated in this episode, over the course of mere hours, with relatively little cost to mankind (or the main cast) and with a completely unsatisfying one-punch kill.

Whats next for A Song of Curry and Rice?
Our heroes take on Cersei and Pop-Up Pirate (who joined the cast 20 minutes ago) then have a final kerfuffle among themselves over who gets to sit on the melted swords?
Underwhelming.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Jim_Campbell 30 April, 2019, 10:18:15 AM
That threat was summarily negated in this episode, over the course of mere hours, with relatively little cost to mankind (or the main cast) and with a completely unsatisfying one-punch kill.

GRRM has always been very clear that he is more interested in human-scale evil than Sauron-level Dark Lordery. The threat of the Night King, IMO, existed primarily to demonstrate the shallowness, lack of foresight and narrowness of focus of the human characters. Having set it up, you can't then not resolve this plotline but how invested in seeing the Night King brought down were we really? It's not like the series has expended several seasons making us hate him, the way we hated Ramsey.

The real villain of the piece is Cersei, now without restraint surrounded as she is only by hired muscle, a half-zombie bodyguard and a creepy yes-man. Meanwhile, the 'good guys' have made themselves perilously vulnerable by paying the price for doing the right thing.


If this isn't all the major themes of the series going back to the first season writ large, then I don't know what is.

PS: Pirate Rufus Hound is fucking annoying, though. Possibly the worst character in the whole series, for my money.

PPS: Appeal to a friendly mod… is there any chance of adding "SPOILERS" to the thread title so we can make posts to it a little less Mueller-Reporty…?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Link Prime 30 April, 2019, 10:38:32 AM
how invested in seeing the Night King brought down were we really? It's not like the series has expended several seasons making us hate him, the way we hated Ramsey.

I wasn't particularity invested in the Night King as a character, and one could argue that there wasn't enough substance to actually consider him a main character.
More so the idea that the Army of the Dead was a force of nature itself - it's objective to wipe humanity from the face of the planet.

It carries a bit more weight than a finale featuring a sword fight with crazy-eyed Rufus Hound (nice comparison).

: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Jim_Campbell 30 April, 2019, 10:50:06 AM
It carries a bit more weight than a finale featuring a sword fight with crazy-eyed Rufus Hound (nice comparison).

There's a lot unresolved Lannister/Lannister and Lannister/Stark business to wrap up, I have a feeling that the Clegane brothers' reunion is going to put every one-on-one fight up until now to shame in the brutality stakes, and I remain convinced that Danaerys is going to turn out to be as mad as her dad and, possibly, that Tyrion is going to have to learn the same lesson as his brother about breaking oaths made to monarchs.

PS: Thanks to whoever on the mod team fixed the thread title!
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Bolt-01 30 April, 2019, 10:56:24 AM
De Nada.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: Funt Solo 30 April, 2019, 03:51:51 PM
"I can't believe Arya killed the Night King — she's a complete Mary Sue"

When I hear the term "Mary Sue", I just assume that the author of the comment doesn't like female characters that do things.

As you say, her building abilities have been foreshadowed pretty much since we first met her.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 30 April, 2019, 03:55:57 PM
++SPOILERS IN THE OPEN++

I'm wondering about where Bran went during the battle.  Was that just something that ended up on the cutting room floor, or was there some relevance to his warging?  Did he know he wasn't going to die?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: wedgeski 30 April, 2019, 03:58:07 PM
++SPOILERS IN THE OPEN++

I'm wondering about where Bran went during the battle.  Was that just something that ended up on the cutting room floor, or was there some relevance to his warging?  Did he know he wasn't going to die?
That's the biggest outstanding mystery to me as well. We assumed he was off somewhere to mess with the Night King. The POV raven flock sequence was very cool, but if there were any clues in the geography, it was all too blurry on Sky for me to make out.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Jim_Campbell 30 April, 2019, 04:01:16 PM
++SPOILERS IN THE OPEN++

I'm wondering about where Bran went during the battle.

He went up that tree like a rat up a drainpipe as soon as he thought no one was looking. The big reveal of this season is that he was never paralysed, he was just really fucking lazy.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 30 April, 2019, 04:06:37 PM
He went up that tree like a rat up a drainpipe as soon as he thought no one was looking. The big reveal of this season is that he was never paralysed, he was just really fucking lazy.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9f/59/9c/9f599cda3f1751512519183a3a500967.jpg)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Leigh S 30 April, 2019, 04:26:16 PM
I think it worked a lot better than I had dared hope - if any shark jumping occurred, I would put that back last series with the icey island, "give that man a dragon" stuff....

I do think there is unresolved stuff with Bran, though I confess maybe a rewatch would make it clear why the Night King was so obsessed with getting him and why his waging and three eyed raven powers havent really been much use in the fall of the blue fellow

As far as Arya is concerned, I thought it was pretty neat that she did the deed, though a scene showing her being stalked by a White Walker (or at the very least showing the White Walkers split up, so she could pick one off) would have been top of my list for the purposes of setting it up
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: radiator 30 April, 2019, 05:38:52 PM
Season 8 / Episode 3 episode had some cool moments for sure (from what I could actually discern on a 55" HD TV anyway), but it was a bit of a shark jump for me.

My reading of 'Game of Thrones' has always been in the description- a frivolous game played by narcissistic mortals, but ultimately irrelevant to the millennia old threat beyond the wall, now making it's play (backed up by the onset of a severe ice-age).
That has been the underlying narrative, as the viewer was made aware in the first few minutes of the first scene almost 10 years ago.

That threat was summarily negated in this episode, over the course of mere hours, with relatively little cost to mankind (or the main cast) and with a completely unsatisfying one-punch kill.

Whats next for A Song of Curry and Rice?
Our heroes take on Cersei and Pop-Up Pirate (who joined the cast 20 minutes ago) then have a final kerfuffle among themselves over who gets to sit on the melted swords?
Underwhelming.

I'm kind of in the same boat. Viscerally thrilling from moment to moment, but narratively unsatisfying in the grander scope of the story after so much build up. I get it from a plot expediency pov, but to me it still totally deflates the existential threat of the White Walkers given that they were dispatched in a single battle by the first organised force they came into contact with.

It's similarly dramtically underwhelming as when last season it transpired that it was indirectly Jon and Dany's fault that the White Walkers were even able to breach the wall in the first place. It got the plot from a to b but also totally undermined the wider narrative (arguably the key plotline of the entire saga) that Jon and Dany are the prophesied saviours of Westeros.

As for Bran, my understanding (though i couldn't tell from the episode itself) is that he was using the crows to harass the night king and assist Jon and Dany. As for motivation etc we almost certainly won't be getting any further explanation as for why he was the target of the Night King beyond the line last episode about Bran being a trove of human memory and the night king wanting to destroy him because of that.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: shaolin_monkey 30 April, 2019, 10:23:35 PM
Anyone still on edge after that episode? You can check out a short but chilled rendition of the theme played on the harp by my tutor Glenda here!

https://twitter.com/scowlingmonkey/status/1123328606548180992?s=21
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 30 April, 2019, 10:47:13 PM
That's a thing of beauty. Love it.

(Also makes me think of how GoT may be the only show whose opening titles are an essential guide to understanding the geography of the story.)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series
: JOE SOAP 30 April, 2019, 11:50:37 PM
My reading of 'Game of Thrones' has always been in the description- a frivolous game played by narcissistic mortals, but ultimately irrelevant to the millennia old threat beyond the wall, now making it's play (backed up by the onset of a severe ice-age).
That has been the underlying narrative, as the viewer was made aware in the first few minutes of the first scene almost 10 years ago.

That threat was summarily negated in this episode, over the course of mere hours, with relatively little cost to mankind (or the main cast) and with a completely unsatisfying one-punch kill.

Whats next for A Song of Curry and Rice?
Our heroes take on Cersei and Pop-Up Pirate (who joined the cast 20 minutes ago) then have a final kerfuffle among themselves over who gets to sit on the melted swords?
Underwhelming.


I think the bigger point of that futility still stands and has not been negated – Winter is still coming. The only thing that's gone is the self-appointed embodiment of it – who used to be a Crow and declared himself King. As another narcissitic long-time player he's been wiped off the board, but no matter what, Winter cannot be beaten and it's still coming to King's Landing. I'm still not sure that Night King story is fully over but there's the possibility that no-one gets out alive, and even if they do, there won't be much to rule over when it's finished.

: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Richard 30 April, 2019, 11:57:00 PM
I really don't understand the criticism that Daneyris is the reason why the Night King was able to breach the Wall. Does anyone really believe that he didn't have a plan to get past that before he sent his army on the move?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 01 May, 2019, 12:11:28 AM
Season 8 / Episode 3 episode had some cool moments for sure (from what I could actually discern on a 55" HD TV anyway), but it was a bit of a shark jump for me.

It's Westeros.  They jump the Stark, surely?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 01 May, 2019, 12:14:16 AM
I think the bigger point of that futility still stands and has not been negated – Winter is still coming. The only thing that's gone is the self-appointed embodiment of it – who used to be a Crow and declared himself King. As another narcissitic long-time player he's been wiped off the board, but no matter what, Winter cannot be beaten and it's still coming to King's Landing. I'm still not sure that Night King story is fully over but there's the possibility that no-one gets out alive, and even if they do, there won't be much to rule over when it's finished.

Is Winter still coming?  I thought it was supposed to be tied up with the Night King and/or the wall (admittedly the wall is mostly still in place, but at least some of it is now gone).
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 01 May, 2019, 12:28:20 AM
I really don't understand the criticism that Daneyris is the reason why the Night King was able to breach the Wall. Does anyone really believe that he didn't have a plan to get past that before he sent his army on the move?

Huh? If the White Walkers had another plan to get around the wall, why didn't they enact it thousands of years ago? I think it's pretty firmly established in the show that the army of the dead got past the wall for one reason and one reason only - they got their hands on a zombie dragon to bust a big hole in it.

They were only able to get that dragon because Jon (and then Dany) went beyond the wall in a harebrained scheme to capture a wight.

I don't think for one second that this was a deliberate consequence of that plotline on the writers part - and neither the nor the characters ever address it - but it is what it is.

The only thing that's gone is the self-appointed embodiment of it – who used to be a Crow and declared himself King

He was never a crow. He was created before the Night's Watch was IIRC.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JOE SOAP 01 May, 2019, 12:49:54 AM
He was never a crow. He was created before the Night's Watch was IIRC.

You're right I'm thinking of the Night's King.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JOE SOAP 01 May, 2019, 01:01:59 AM
Is Winter still coming?  I thought it was supposed to be tied up with the Night King and/or the wall (admittedly the wall is mostly still in place, but at least some of it is now gone).

The climate is unpredictable in Westeros: Summer lasted 9 years and the next Winter could last just as long. It's never really declared that the Night King is the cause of the Winter, only that he uses it.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 01 May, 2019, 01:17:51 AM
Is Winter still coming?  I thought it was supposed to be tied up with the Night King and/or the wall (admittedly the wall is mostly still in place, but at least some of it is now gone).

The climate is unpredictable in Westeros: Summer lasted 9 years and the next Winter could last just as long. It's never really declared that the Night King is the cause of the Winter, only that he uses it.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure George RR Martin has stated that the irregular seasons and the white walkers are inextricably linked, and the details will be made clear by the end of the (book) series. Not sure whether that means winter itself will be averted on the show, though.

Looking at the trailer for the next episode, it certainly seems like that little dusting of Snow falling on King's Landing in the season 7 finale was a one-off and things are back to normal... which would be a bit of a shame imo.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JOE SOAP 01 May, 2019, 01:23:20 AM
the details will be made clear by the end of the (book) series.

Looks like we'll never know.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Link Prime 01 May, 2019, 09:43:45 AM
Is Winter still coming?  I thought it was supposed to be tied up with the Night King and/or the wall (admittedly the wall is mostly still in place, but at least some of it is now gone).

The climate is unpredictable in Westeros: Summer lasted 9 years and the next Winter could last just as long. It's never really declared that the Night King is the cause of the Winter, only that he uses it.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure George RR Martin has stated that the irregular seasons and the white walkers are inextricably linked, and the details will be made clear by the end of the (book) series. Not sure whether that means winter itself will be averted on the show, though.

Looking at the trailer for the next episode, it certainly seems like that little dusting of Snow falling on King's Landing in the season 7 finale was a one-off and things are back to normal... which would be a bit of a shame imo.

I can't say for certain if there was ever an inextricable link between the the Army of the Dead and the onset of 'winter' (an assumed Westerosi form of ice-age) as depicted in the show, in my mind it just seemed to present an opportunistic time frame for the Night King / White Walkers to make their move.
Regardless, I'd agree that the prospect of an impending winter would still hold some dramatic weight in the final episodes.

I suppose this crux of my disappointment in the current direction of the show is this; until the latest episode, humanity in Westeros faced an existential threat - a two pronged extinction event was heading southward, and it wasn't going to differentiate between social standing or allegiance.
Now we're not even sure if they need to bother breaking out the Aran cardigans.

The stakes have been lowered by an incredible degree.
Although there will undoubtedly be some entertaining scenes to come, for me personally it reduces the final questions the show will pose to veritable triviality.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Keef Monkey 01 May, 2019, 10:30:37 AM
Loved the episode, but for me and everyone I've talked to it was difficult to watch due to the picture quality itself being absolutely rotten. A colleague has explained to me that it was down to how frame by frame compression works which I knew nothing about and found pretty interesting! Apparently the issue is how certain effects that cause chaotic changes to a great deal of pixels every frame (like smoke, fire and snow - all the things the episode was absolutely covered in) force the resolution down for the whole frame. It also means it reduces the amount of colour information provided, so frames that largely use varying grades of a similar tone get less gradients of the tone and instead of smooth transitions from blacks to greys etc. you get a load of blotchy colour banding.

Everyone here might know all that already, but I found it all a bit of an education! Anytime resolution drops on a stream I've always assumed it was my broadband playing up or something wrong with my set-up, but it seems like in this case they've just made an episode that just doesn't play nicely with most services compression methods.

I was watching on NowTV myself and the whole thing was a pixellated blotchy mess, and everyone I've spoken to using various services seems to have had the same experience. I still enjoyed the story beats and thought it was a great episode, but the fact it looked like it had been filmed 15 years ago on someone's phone really robbed it of the cinematic flair it clearly should have had. Must feel rotten to put all that work into a production and get it looking incredible, just for it to broadcast in that way to (I'd assume) most people.

A lot of the comments I've seen online have been people complaining about it being too dark to see anything, and I do wonder if that's actually the streaming problem being conflated into something else. The cinematographer has even responded saying people just don't have their tellys calibrated properly, but I suspect they're addressing the wrong complaint there.

More than anything else in the show though, it's committed me to getting it on Blu-Ray for a rewatch, where I'm sure it'll look fantastic!
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Mister Pops 01 May, 2019, 10:52:04 AM
Aye I heard the episode looked amazing in editing, uncompressed on 4k screens. I've heard record producers keep an old battered hi-fi/boom-box around and listen to their tracks through car stereos to ensure the audio quality is as good played through them as it is through their state-of-the art $1000 head phones.

A cynical person might suggest the compression induced image issues were accidentally on purpose to drive up blue-ray sales later on.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 01 May, 2019, 10:54:23 AM
Is Winter still coming?  I thought it was supposed to be tied up with the Night King and/or the wall (admittedly the wall is mostly still in place, but at least some of it is now gone).

The climate is unpredictable in Westeros: Summer lasted 9 years and the next Winter could last just as long. It's never really declared that the Night King is the cause of the Winter, only that he uses it.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure George RR Martin has stated that the irregular seasons and the white walkers are inextricably linked, and the details will be made clear by the end of the (book) series. Not sure whether that means winter itself will be averted on the show, though.

Looking at the trailer for the next episode, it certainly seems like


He's definitely said that the irregular seasons have a supernatural cause, and I wish I could remember where I read the quotes from GRRM.  One or more of the following are a matter of record (but, y'know, memory):
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 01 May, 2019, 05:16:21 PM
Aye I heard the episode looked amazing in editing, uncompressed on 4k screens. I've heard record producers keep an old battered hi-fi/boom-box around and listen to their tracks through car stereos to ensure the audio quality is as good played through them as it is through their state-of-the art $1000 head phones.


A few software and website developers could learn a lot from such record producers.  Especially the ones who have top-range state-of-the-art computers with two or three screens but are producing for people who will be viewing websites* on three-year-old laptops or desktops at home.


* software, whatever
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 01 May, 2019, 06:29:06 PM
Is Winter still coming?  I thought it was supposed to be tied up with the Night King and/or the wall (admittedly the wall is mostly still in place, but at least some of it is now gone).

The climate is unpredictable in Westeros: Summer lasted 9 years and the next Winter could last just as long. It's never really declared that the Night King is the cause of the Winter, only that he uses it.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure George RR Martin has stated that the irregular seasons and the white walkers are inextricably linked, and the details will be made clear by the end of the (book) series. Not sure whether that means winter itself will be averted on the show, though.

Looking at the trailer for the next episode, it certainly seems like that little dusting of Snow falling on King's Landing in the season 7 finale was a one-off and things are back to normal... which would be a bit of a shame imo.

I can't say for certain if there was ever an inextricable link between the the Army of the Dead and the onset of 'winter' (an assumed Westerosi form of ice-age) as depicted in the show, in my mind it just seemed to present an opportunistic time frame for the Night King / White Walkers to make their move.
Regardless, I'd agree that the prospect of an impending winter would still hold some dramatic weight in the final episodes.

I suppose this crux of my disappointment in the current direction of the show is this; until the latest episode, humanity in Westeros faced an existential threat - a two pronged extinction event was heading southward, and it wasn't going to differentiate between social standing or allegiance.
Now we're not even sure if they need to bother breaking out the Aran cardigans.

The stakes have been lowered by an incredible degree.
Although there will undoubtedly be some entertaining scenes to come, for me personally it reduces the final questions the show will pose to veritable triviality.

I think you've nailed what I was trying to get at. 'Ice Age' is exactly what I was expecting from the hints and descriptions of Westerosi winter we got early on, and what we ended up getting in the show never really came close to that. It just snowed a little bit as far as I can tell.

A constant throughline since the earliest days of the show has been this looming existential threat bearing down on a population too ignorant and self-involved to see the warning signs, let alone prepare for its arrival. Since season 1 episode 1 we’ve been waiting and waiting for this cataclysmic event that will finally shake the Seven Kingdoms out of their complacency and force them to reckon with it…. And after the events of the latest episode, this threat just got discarded without it ever having any impact on anyone living south of Winterfell. Every smug Southron and maester just got proved right, and that irks me a bit.

Jon and Dany were purposely positioned in the narrative to be the only ones who could save the world from the invasion of the White Walkers - an act that would prove their worth as the rightful rulers of Westeros. How does that pay off now that literally 95% of the population have no reason to believe any what just happened beyond just taking their word for it? Now we're just back to squabbling over claims and titles. To me that's the exact opposite of the overall point of the series.

From a dramatic perspective, the White Walker invasion was a ticking time bomb that never fully went off. That's why, to me, it's always going to feel a bit like that episode of Itchy and Scratchy where they never made it to the fireworks factory.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Richard 01 May, 2019, 06:30:31 PM
I think it's pretty firmly established in the show that the army of the dead got past the wall for one reason and one reason only - they got their hands on a zombie dragon to bust a big hole in it.

The Night King didn't know that was going to happen. He still spent seven seasons mobilising his army and marching them towards the Wall without a dragon. What was his plan when he got there? Did you think he was going to look up at the massive wall looming over him and say "oh yeah, I forgot about that. Back up north then lads."

Having the dragon helped, of course, but it can't have been the only way to breach the wall. Certainly John Snow thinks the same thing, or else he wouldn't have bothered recruiting a wildling army, mining all that dragonglass, and kidnapping one of the undead to show to Cersei and everyone.

I don't know how he was going to do it originally. (Maybe he was going to get Crastor's undead babies to burrow into the foundations, like saboteur moles.) But John Snow has saved Westeros, he isn't the reason it was in trouble in the first place.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Jim_Campbell 01 May, 2019, 06:53:16 PM
He still spent seven seasons mobilising his army and marching them towards the Wall without a dragon.

Since this is supposed to be the worst winter in a verrrry long time, I assumed the Night King's fallback plan was to just wait until enough of the sea froze that they could walk round the bloody wall, unless something better came along… which it did.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 01 May, 2019, 06:55:19 PM
The wall worked as a manned barrier - not a passive one.  This was demonstrated by the Wildling army scaling the wall in places to carry out hit and run attacks beyond it.  The manning was so (historically) important that the Night's Watch used to be a much larger organization, but has become undermanned as complacency set in amongst those living to the south.

So, the zombie army would have breached the wall - perhaps through one of the gates (as tried by Mance Rayder in the show, even though it was the threat of his magic trumpet in the books), or by climbing it, or by swimming around it at the edges - it just would have taken a while longer.

---

I like that the long winter is perhaps not going to come.  It's always sucked to be a northerner and have the southerners take the piss all the time: it's going to continue to suck.  Cersei's gamble paid off: instead of an even larger army of the dead coming to slaughter all of humanity, she gets to fight back against a much diminished northern force: approximately 10 people.

---

Is Jon's dragon still alive?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JamesC 01 May, 2019, 07:02:52 PM
White walkers arrive at wall amid worst winter ever. Chuck some ice spears over the top and generally test defences. Wait for crows to die of wounds/freezing/whatever. Raise downed crows etc etc...
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 01 May, 2019, 07:44:02 PM
Is Jon's dragon still alive?


There are two dragons in next week's trailer
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 01 May, 2019, 08:32:01 PM
Jon's dragon now, is it? That's a bit previous.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 01 May, 2019, 09:46:41 PM
Jon's dragon now, is it? That's a bit previous.

I'm just trying to stir things up between him and his aunt.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: IndigoPrime 01 May, 2019, 10:06:12 PM
I was watching on NowTV myself and the whole thing was a pixellated blotchy mess
Just like everything else on NOW TV (whose 720p compressed crap I shall gleefully be cancelling when GoT is done).
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 01 May, 2019, 10:41:21 PM
I stream from HBO NOW via an Apple TV, and I also really struggled with compression artifacts (and I agree that when people complain about clarity with this episode, it's probably due to compression rather than cinematography or lighting).

Streaming becoming the norm is partly why I don't care about upgrading my TV to 4K for the foreseeable future - as far as I'm concerned the tech just isn't there yet to match even Blu Ray level fidelity, let alone improve on it.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Krakajac 02 May, 2019, 12:44:17 AM
In relation to the Night King’s intentions when he and his army eventually reached the wall...perhaps he ‘knew’ that he would somehow get his hands on a dragon?  If Bran has the ability to see beyond present time - perhaps the Night King has (had) similar skills?  He certainly came prepared with that whopping great chain used to pull the dead dragon out of that icy lake. 🙂
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Keef Monkey 02 May, 2019, 10:49:08 AM
I stream from HBO NOW via an Apple TV, and I also really struggled with compression artifacts (and I agree that when people complain about clarity with this episode, it's probably due to compression rather than cinematography or lighting).

Streaming becoming the norm is partly why I don't care about upgrading my TV to 4K for the foreseeable future - as far as I'm concerned the tech just isn't there yet to match even Blu Ray level fidelity, let alone improve on it.

Yeah, the 4K content that Netflix and Amazon stream certainly looks better than regular HD, but it's definitely not competing with a Blu-ray.

Saying that, as far as the compression problems I will say I don't get any of that with Netflix, even when streaming stuff with all the 4K/HDR/Atmos bells and whistles. I've never seen any of the colour banding and artifacts that I get badly on NowTV and (much less severely) on Amazon Prime. If whatever magic Netflix are weaving could spread to the other services then things might get a lot better!

With most shows it doesn't bother me too much, but it was knowing how fantastic and cinematic that GoT episode would look in all its glory that made it sting.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: IndigoPrime 02 May, 2019, 11:10:58 AM
Netflix has progressive compression. It also offers multiple levels when you subscribe. NOW TV’s only option is shite – doubly so on Apple TV, which is also lumbered with a pre-tvOS app that I have it on good authority is never going to be updated.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JOE SOAP 02 May, 2019, 01:50:34 PM
Considering there had been fewer complaints with seeing things at night in previous episodes in the show's dark ligthing scheme, the decision to emulate the naturalness of the Barry Lyndon aesthetic and mimic the effect of shooting only with available light in a pitch black battle full of smoke and snow means it was going to be hard to see even without the degradation of streaming compression. Going underlit was a design choice. They didn't want us to see everything.

“The showrunners decided that this had to be a dark episode,” says Wagner. “We’d seen so many battle scenes over the years – to make it truly impactful and to care for the characters, you have to find a unique way of portraying the story.”

Wagner says that the majority of the darkness in the episode is thanks to the night-time shoot, with the rest of the atmosphere produced on-set through lighting choices. “Another look would have been wrong,” he says. “Everything we wanted people to see is there.”


https://www.wired.co.uk/article/game-of-thrones-too-dark-to-see

4k HDR would improve it.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Steve Green 02 May, 2019, 01:53:28 PM
As someone posted on twitter

When the wight was brought to Kings Landing, Maester Qyburn looked like he'd been given the cheat codes - bearing in mind that he's already bought the Mountain back to life, it could be that we've not seen the last of wights
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: IndigoPrime 02 May, 2019, 02:05:25 PM
Going underlit was a design choice. They didn't want us to see everything.
Chaos seemed to be the main direction – not knowing who was dead or alive, how badly someone was injured, and whether whoever had gone down under a swarm of snow zombies would get up again. Compare to The Walking Dead's cinematic and death-porn takes on character deaths by zombies.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 02 May, 2019, 02:14:15 PM
As someone posted on twitter




I'm hoping for something along those lines too - the original Night King was the result of the Children of the Forest's defence getting out of hand, so hopefully Qyburn's meddling will also escalate further than expected.  Otherwise we won't get the existential threat we've had since the first scene all those years ago.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Steve Green 02 May, 2019, 06:10:21 PM
Also again someone mentioning on twitter

Gods in GoT and the Lord of Light, and the drowned god being fairly useless.

With the imminent sea battle, I'm wondering if we might get a Kraken showing up - they're mentioned in the books apparently, and we've had dragons... I can't recall if they've been mentioned in the show, bar appearing on sails
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 02 May, 2019, 06:38:12 PM
I like the idea that Qyburn might have more nefarious schemes up his twisted sleeves.

At the moment, the most obviously stupid thing for the dragon-riders to do would be to use their dragons anywhere near Cersei and Qyburn: they should have learned from their narrow escape during the battle of the Goldroad (and from losing a dragon to a spikey thing already) that ballistae are a problem.

Without the dragons it's going to be difficult for the remnants of the north to go up against the Sex Pirate and the Golden Company.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 02 May, 2019, 07:15:37 PM
Tbh the dispatching of the Walkers in the latest episode very much feels like an attempt by the writers to get away from the overtly supernatural elements of the story in favour of the political intrigue and human conflict that the audience generally tends to prefer. There's no way that they're introducing anything like Krakens at this late stage, and while I wouldn't rule it out 100%, to airdrop another undead army into the narrative after they only just defeated one would feel repetitive and redundant so I really don't think that's going to happen.


Someone posted this on Twitter the other day, and it perfectly sums up my issue with the direction of the show:

A Song of Ice & Fire: the game of thrones is just a distraction from the real problem: the long night.

Game of Thrones: The Long Night is just a distraction from the real problem: the game of thrones.

FWIW, I very strongly suspect that the show is going to end with some version of the iron throne being melted down with dragon fire - in a symbolic rejection of absolute monarchy rule (and all the horror it has wrought) and a neat inversion on how it was originally forged by Aegon the Conqueror.... But simply by framing the final conflict as one between Dany and Cersei to me they've still fundamentally changed the nature and meaning of the ending in a way that I'm really not a fan of.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: broodblik 02 May, 2019, 07:49:25 PM
Tbh the dispatching of the Walkers in the latest episode very much feels like an attempt by the writers to get away from the overtly supernatural elements of the story in favour of the political intrigue and human conflict that the audience generally tends to prefer. There's no way that they're introducing anything like Krakens at this late stage, and while I wouldn't rule it out 100%, to airdrop another undead army into the narrative after they only just defeated one would feel repetitive and redundant so I really don't think that's going to happen.


I do not feel that is the case. Winterfell is before Kings Landing thus would be the first target of The Night King. His main target was Bran and so he went for the kill. No this is were I liked what they did, everyone was expecting an epic one-on-one mortal kombat street fighter brawls between Jon and the Night. They went for something more surprising and satisfactory a one-shot kill. Everything now points to a more conventional fight to the end.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Eamonn Clarke 02 May, 2019, 08:40:17 PM
Who’s still on the field for team Dani?

No Dothraki
About a dozen Unsullied
Most of her A team
Two injured dragons
Jara Greyjoy and a handful of ships.
The fierce little girl with the scared face.
And that’s about it.

Still at least Sansa’s meetings about grain reserves and the soup kitchens will get a bit easier.
“They’re dead, they’re all dead. OK? Can I go now?”
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 02 May, 2019, 09:14:42 PM
.
The fierce little girl with the scared face.
 

Can't place her I'm afraid. Unless you mean the magnificent Lady Mormont, in which case I have some bad news...
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Eamonn Clarke 02 May, 2019, 09:39:29 PM
.
The fierce little girl with the scared face.
 

Can't place her I'm afraid. Unless you mean the magnificent Lady Mormont, in which case I have some bad news...

The scarred northerner from the soup line in episode 2.  The one who reminded Davos and Gilly of Shireen. She defended the crypts and I think she was holding Varys’ hand at the end.

The wonderful Bear cub of house Mormont did indeed go out in a blaze of glory, which might be a convenience for the writers as she was the leading spokesperson for the King in the North, and not a great fan of the Dragon Queen.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 02 May, 2019, 10:25:21 PM
Ah yes, I'm with you now!
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Mister Pops 02 May, 2019, 10:30:32 PM
After digesting the implications of the last episode for a while I think it's fine. Not Brilliant, but fine. I wanted there to more to the story of The Other's but there isn't and that's fine. I had all kinds of theories about the Night King's motivations, but if it's just genocide, that's fine. He was a non character really, that's fine. Just a metaphor for an seemingly unstoppable force of nature. Fine. Not actually actively evil, just as uncaring as the wind and rain and snow. That's pretty good to be fair.

I really wanted there to be more to it. Some kind of ancient pact between the Children of the Forest and the First Men. There wasn't. The whole thing was an elaborate fake out. A subversion. I don't have a hard time thinking this might have been Martin's plan all along. He's on record in several interviews, stating that The Ultimate Battle Between Good And Evil doesn't really interest him. There's a quote I can't be bothered to look up where refers to Aragorn ruling wisely for 100 (300? been a while since I read it) years after Sauron was defeated. Martin asks how did he rule wisely? What happened to all orcs? The biggest themes of the books are the nuances power and leadership, not epic battles between good and evil.

The Night King went down like a punk. So did Ned and Robb and countless others. This is not a story of good versus evil.

I think that's right, it was too dark to tell.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 02 May, 2019, 11:25:38 PM
After digesting the implications of the last episode for a while I think it's fine. Not Brilliant, but fine. I wanted there to more to the story of The Other's but there isn't and that's fine. I had all kinds of theories about the Night King's motivations, but if it's just genocide, that's fine. He was a non character really, that's fine. Just a metaphor for an seemingly unstoppable force of nature. Fine. Not actually actively evil, just as uncaring as the wind and rain and snow. That's pretty good to be fair.

I really wanted there to be more to it. Some kind of ancient pact between the Children of the Forest and the First Men. There wasn't. The whole thing was an elaborate fake out. A subversion. I don't have a hard time thinking this might have been Martin's plan all along. He's on record in several interviews, stating that The Ultimate Battle Between Good And Evil doesn't really interest him.

I don't really disagree, up to a point. If anything I think the TV show probably showed us too much of the White Walkers and I'm not sure it was the best decision to give them an identifiable leader in the form of the Night King (who is not and will not be a character in the books). I think that the WW work much better as a looming threat and more of an unknowable, alien force of nature. I think I'm right in saying that in five (giant) books they've only appeared 'on screen' (as such) twice(?).

I do however think Martin's infamous quote about Dark Lords and Good Vs Evil is often misconstrued - I think he was just making a point in general about giving his characters and world a bit more depth, especially with regards to characters who might ordinarily be regarded as 'villains' (like Littlefinger and Jaime) - and to show the trials and pitfalls of ruling, and not just ascending to the role of ruler (and this is exactly what A Dance With Dragons is all about with regards to Jon and Dany).

But at the end of the day it's a fantasy epic and there absolutely are characters in the series who are straight up, irredeemable Bad Guys - Ramsey, Roose, Joffrey, Vargo Hoat, Euron Greyjoy, Walder Frey, Craster, The Mountain et al and who ultimately need to be defeated by the Good Guys. And I still very much think that Martin's plan in the books is and always has been leading to some kind of a final showdown between the living and the 'Others/White Walkers', whether that takes the form of a war, or something weirder and more metaphysical (or maybe a combination of both).
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Dudley 03 May, 2019, 09:46:46 PM
Really disappointed. No problem with the fake out or the deus ex arya, but all the scenes of everyone dying except the characters with plot armour got truly dull after a while.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 03 May, 2019, 10:35:38 PM
I hear that many people are expressing frustration, and I wonder if it's to do with hype's remorse?

Only two things were distractions for me during the episode:

1. It wasn't clear if Bran's warging has some later, secret outcome or if he was just observing things through the medium of crows.

2. With the slow-mo in the third act, the depiction of named characters almost but not quite being overwhelmed started to drag a little.

To counter that: it was some of the most amazing television I've ever watched - I could not take my eyes from the screen.  The tension, palpable fear and visceral dread left me shell shocked and mentally gibbering.  That some are calling this bad television seems ... fussy.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 03 May, 2019, 11:43:24 PM
.

To counter that: it was some of the most amazing television I've ever watched - I could not take my eyes from the screen.  The tension, palpable fear and visceral dread left me shell shocked and mentally gibbering.  That some are calling this bad television seems ... fussy.

For sure. I'm pretty sure it's the most exciting episode of any series, ever.  As I said on another thread, the quality of TV has us spoilt these days.

Btw I think Bran's warging was a successful attempt to alert the Night King to his whereabouts.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Mikey 04 May, 2019, 08:41:11 AM
I made the decision to sub to NowTV given the short run of this series and the risk of spoilers - the shite compression (as it turns out) definitely hasn't helped me get into this. I've watched the previous series on DVD and other streaming services and it's always looked the business, properly cinematic, so I wish I had just waited.

Anyhoo - thought that, despite it looking like it was filmed in a quarry in Larne by third year media students with their da's old camcorder, it was a great episode and loved Arya's kill strike. Genuinely thought a few more would cark it so the tension was there OK.

Regarding the whole WW/Night King threat, as I said to Mrs Mike last night, the show was always about the houses really and this was a distraction for added peril. I'm OK with that. Mrs Mikey vehemently disagrees and reckons if it was all about getting Bran the Night King 'could have just crept up on him, he's only a wee lad in a wheelchair'.

Still looking forward to how they're going to end this, but it does feel a bit like going through the motions.

: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 04 May, 2019, 10:39:30 PM
That some are calling this bad television seems ... fussy.

Pretty sure no one here has said anything of the sort - think the most extreme reaction so far has been mild disappointment mixed in with the praise. Or are you referring to the reaction in the wider fanbase?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 05 May, 2019, 03:16:10 AM
@radiator: yes, I was mostly referring to the wider fanbase (or maybe it's just the suggestions that are coming up on my video feeds).  I might be getting skewed by the amount of image quality complaints, as well - thankfully not something I got hit by (although I was watching it on a 1600*900 wee laptop monitor).  Only a couple of folk on here that summed it up as overall a disappointment.  We can agree to disagree for sure.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 06 May, 2019, 10:13:56 AM
Well, that surprised me.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Link Prime 06 May, 2019, 11:12:26 AM
That some are calling this bad television seems ... fussy.

Pretty sure no one here has said anything of the sort - think the most extreme reaction so far has been mild disappointment mixed in with the praise.

I actually went full heel turn yesterday afternoon and watched the episode 4 leaks, followed by full spoilers for the remaining 2 episodes.
The one GoT twist I genuinely didn't see coming was me removing the show from my Sky series link.  :lol: 

: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Steve Green 06 May, 2019, 02:31:03 PM
Episode 4 The Last of the Starks

Can't see that we're down to the last dragon, esp with Euron Greyjoy saying 'yeah I saw it go down myself'
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 06 May, 2019, 05:03:55 PM
So after all they've been through, the Free Folk are just going to up sticks and go back 'home'? Really?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 06 May, 2019, 05:32:13 PM
So after all they've been through, the Free Folk are just going to up sticks and go back 'home'? Really?

I thought that was weird - in the books, there's a deal struck (if memory serves) whereby they get to live in the castles either of the wall, or just south of the wall.  Wasn't Mance Rayder's entire scheme about finding somewhere to live south of the wall?  It didn't seem to have much to do with the threat of the White Walkers.

It struck me as just a convenient way for the show runners to move Tormund off the plot table (and also to move Ghost off the CGI spreadsheet).  It might all have been driven by a need to get rid of the wolf.

Edit: actually, I just Googled it and it turns out that Mance's motivation may have been the coming winter and the danger of the Walkers - so there is some sense that with the double threat lifted, the Wildlings might want to go back home.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 06 May, 2019, 05:45:22 PM
So after all they've been through, the Free Folk are just going to up sticks and go back 'home'? Really?

I thought that was weird - in the books, there's a deal struck (if memory serves) whereby they get to live in the castles either of the wall, or just south of the wall.  Wasn't Mance Rayder's entire scheme about finding somewhere to live south of the wall?  It didn't seem to have much to do with the threat of the White Walkers.

It struck me as just a convenient way for the show runners to move Tormund off the plot table (and also to move Ghost off the CGI spreadsheet).  It might all have been driven by a need to get rid of the wolf.

Edit: actually, I just Googled it and it turns out that Mance's motivation may have been the coming winter and the danger of the Walkers - so there is some sense that with the double threat lifted, the Wildlings might want to go back home.

I'd say the motivation was partly the White Walker thing, but also the whole 'not wanting to scratch a desperate living in a frozen hellscape' thing was probably quite a big factor. After all, it's been made clear in the show that the Free Folk have attempted to invade the south multiple times in the past under different leaders, which does seem to contradict the argument that they were only doing so to escape the WW. It does seem like a strange wrap up to the whole Wildling plotline, when you have a ready-made solution baked in to the plot already (ie that they settle in the Gift and/or the formerly abandoned castles of the Nights Watch).

Oh well, Another one of those things you just have to go along with. There were quite a few of them this episode.

The wolf thing; again, I get it, budgets etc etc but it's still a shame just how much they've been short-changed by the TV show given how integral they are to the plot of the books.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 06 May, 2019, 06:50:50 PM
++ SPOILERS IN THE OPEN ++

This episode I did struggle with a bit - because the characters seem to be suffering from an overabundance of stupidity, or weirdly lethal accuracy.

Things I didn't like:

At this point, Cersei deserves the throne.  Everyone else is too stupid to sit in it.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Richard 06 May, 2019, 07:16:23 PM
I agree with all of that, except Missandei. It was established quite some time ago that Danerys sees her as more than her interpreter, but also as a friend.

As for the wildlings, they're not farmers, they're hunters. They'd presumably have to change their way of life if they settled in the fake North instead of returning to the real North.

Nevertheless, it was still a good episode.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: broodblik 06 May, 2019, 07:26:20 PM
Enjoyed the episode but as Funt said a lot of stupidity around
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Jim_Campbell 06 May, 2019, 08:49:37 PM
Wasn't Mance Rayder's entire scheme about finding somewhere to live south of the wall?  It didn't seem to have much to do with the threat of the White Walkers.

No. It was explicitly because if they stayed north of the wall, the White Walkers would kill them all.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 06 May, 2019, 09:00:30 PM
Edit: actually, I just Googled it and it turns out that Mance's motivation may have been the coming winter and the danger of the Walkers - so there is some sense that with the double threat lifted, the Wildlings might want to go back home.

*cough*
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Jim_Campbell 06 May, 2019, 09:10:11 PM
That said, somehow this episode felt like a sharp turn into the nasty mean-spiritedness of Millar’s Icon-published Kick Ass, where misery is visited with almost sadistic glee on the supporting cast just to ratchet up the ‘stakes’ and which, for me, rendered that work an unappealing morass of violent revenge fantasy.

Also: Pirate Rufus Hound has been a terrible character since his inception. For all that Ramsey was a pantomime villain, we kind of understood of his roots as the bastard son of a House Lord, the ambition, the ruthlessness, the sadism … it all kind of made sense, even if it was a bit much. Euron, though…? Worst character in the entire series, which makes it unfortunate that they’re hanging so much on him.

A borderline shark-jumpy for me, this episode.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Jim_Campbell 06 May, 2019, 09:24:30 PM
Edit: actually, I just Googled it and it turns out that Mance's motivation may have been the coming winter and the danger of the Walkers - so there is some sense that with the double threat lifted, the Wildlings might want to go back home.

*cough*

Well, clearly I wasn’t replying to your edited post, because that wasn’t the text I quoted. FFS.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 06 May, 2019, 09:33:23 PM
Okay.  [Backs out of room slowly.]
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Jim_Campbell 06 May, 2019, 10:39:23 PM
Okay.  [Backs out of room slowly.]

Huh. Yeah. I should have refreshed that page before I replied. Fair enough — my apologies for being so stroppy.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 06 May, 2019, 11:01:33 PM
“Was the ancient ice demon apocalypse just a warm up for the real war against a drunk queen and her pal, the horny pirate?”

Everything I liked and didn't like about last week's The Long Night episode in a nutshell: https://youtu.be/fwWqI4AJLmY (https://youtu.be/fwWqI4AJLmY)

Btw in case you’re not familiar with his work, Alt Shift X is an Aussie youtuber who makes very accomplished episode recaps and video essays breaking down all the major fan theories related to the show and books. His analysis is generally very astute and unlike a lot of online 'critics' his content is hyperbole-free; he very rarely editorialises and his videos always maintain a relaxed, neutral tone. I think this episode may have broken him, though - you can kind of hear the exasperation and disbelief in his voice at times.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: wedgeski 07 May, 2019, 09:17:44 AM
Plenty to enjoy in that one, but holy fork, could they make Euron any more annoying? Now he's stealthed an entire fleet of dragon-killing ships in a rocky cove. I will enjoy his inevitable death, but he should be studied by future TV writers as an example of what not to do with a late-comer in a long-established character drama.

Why not just kill the second dragon in the battle against the Night King? Why not have Drogon race to kill his brother (sister?) before the Night King could raise a second dracolich? If they were going for a curve-ball, they missed the mark. It has a whiff of last-minute change about it, IMO.

All that said, they are handling the escalating tensions between our heroes very nicely, demonstrating that the writers are still mostly in firm control of the arc. The last-chance face-off at the gates of Kings Landing was a gripping prologue to what I assume will be carnage next week.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: IndigoPrime 07 May, 2019, 09:27:57 AM
could they make Euron any more annoying? Now he's stealthed an entire fleet of dragon-killing ships in a rocky cove. I will enjoy his inevitable death
It won’t happen, but I’d rather like to see a seriously injured Rhaegal (who Euron said he saw sink between the waves) rock up and bite off Euron’s face. He’s such a shit villain – almost panto villain. (macOS autocorrect wanted to change that to ‘pants villain’, which is rather apt.)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 07 May, 2019, 06:20:24 PM
Everything I liked and didn't like about last week's The Long Night episode in a nutshell: https://youtu.be/fwWqI4AJLmY (https://youtu.be/fwWqI4AJLmY)

Thanks for posting that: I'd forgotten about how weird it was to have the trebuchets out front of the troops, and the trench line between the troops and the castle.  It sort of worked for the narrative structure, but it didn't seem sensible as a military tactic.

Mind you: how does one fight an army of unstoppable undead killing machines?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Dudley 07 May, 2019, 08:58:37 PM
Just caught up. Silly beyond words. Evidently we should stop letting white men have sole charge of fantasy series.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 07 May, 2019, 10:45:46 PM
For me, GoT is still some of the best TV I've ever seen, and definitely the most visually spectacular. As I've said on another thread, I think the quality of modern TV has us spoiled.  I love you guys but I think I'll stay away from this thread for a while and just be glad I was there for an amazing show that will go down in entertainment history. 
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: IndigoPrime 08 May, 2019, 07:54:16 AM
I suspect timings are the main problem. Someone noted the series has stripped out second acts now the series have got shorter. So there’s no way of telling – and no sense of – time passing. It’s all set-up/resolution.

I’m still enjoying the show, even if some things are nonsensical. (Dany: do a wide arc with the dragon and burn that Fleet from behind!) And it’s certainly not boring.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 08 May, 2019, 09:14:15 AM
Just caught up. Silly beyond words. Evidently we should stop letting white men have sole charge of fantasy series.


What do colour and gender have to do with it?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Jim_Campbell 08 May, 2019, 09:31:21 AM
What do colour and gender have to do with it?

I find it hard to believe that anyone other than a white man would have written and/or approved the conclusion of the storyline for the only woman of colour in the whole series as: "let's literally chain her up and then have her brutally murdered on-camera to make the whitest of the white girls sad."

It's a little tone deaf. This entire episode is appalling in its treatment of its female characters, even by the fairly dubious standards of the show. Sansa is OK about all the rape and brutality and stuff because it made her stronger? Really? Or Brienne is humiliated in public by the normally decent Tyrion, who then demeans her again in a later scene, and then Jaime leaves and she cries. Or even the normally pretty egalitarian Tormund thinks Jon should be king because he does stuff that Danaerys has been doing longer and better.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 08 May, 2019, 10:11:43 AM
I remember hearing about an afro-centric fantasy author, though can't remember his or her name.  Just trying to work out what search term I need to find 'african fantasy' or 'black fantasy' without returning... inappropriate... results.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 08 May, 2019, 10:12:36 AM
I remember hearing about an afro-centric fantasy author, though can't remember his or her name.  Just trying to work out what search term I need to find 'african fantasy' or 'black fantasy' without returning... inappropriate... results.

This (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_science_fiction) might be a good place to start though.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Keef Monkey 08 May, 2019, 10:29:37 AM
What do colour and gender have to do with it?

I find it hard to believe that anyone other than a white man would have written and/or approved the conclusion of the storyline for the only woman of colour in the whole series as: "let's literally chain her up and then have her brutally murdered on-camera to make the whitest of the white girls sad."

It's a little tone deaf. This entire episode is appalling in its treatment of its female characters, even by the fairly dubious standards of the show. Sansa is OK about all the rape and brutality and stuff because it made her stronger? Really? Or Brienne is humiliated in public by the normally decent Tyrion, who then demeans her again in a later scene, and then Jaime leaves and she cries. Or even the normally pretty egalitarian Tormund thinks Jon should be king because he does stuff that Danaerys has been doing longer and better.

I don't share a lot of the complaints people have about the show and am still really enjoying it, but that line from Sansa did give me a bit of pause. Couldn't believe they would go that route, all the rape and abuse was fine because it toughened her up and made her a woman?! I'm finding myself defending a lot of the show at the moment but that was so clumsy and rotten that it landed with a real thud.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: shaolin_monkey 08 May, 2019, 10:42:03 AM
I remember hearing about an afro-centric fantasy author, though can't remember his or her name.  Just trying to work out what search term I need to find 'african fantasy' or 'black fantasy' without returning... inappropriate... results.

This (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_science_fiction) might be a good place to start though.

Rosewater is excellent sci-fi set in Nigeria and written by a black author. Recommended!
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: IndigoPrime 08 May, 2019, 11:14:14 AM
What Jim said. Also notable that one woman on the show who hasn’t been horribly assaulted by men, and who has a reasonable degree of agency because of her actions, Yara, had her great victory entirely off screen. FFS x infinity.

I still like the show, and I will watch through to its conclusion. But that last episode was pretty fucking tone deaf when it comes to diversity, and came across like it was written through the prism of white guys of a certain stripe. (The odd moment of realisation – that chat between Varys and Tyrion – cannot make up for the rest.)

Really, they need more women on writing teams and in editing/production roles. That’s the only thing that can fix this. My wife noted at the cinema yesterday how many women were on the writing team for Captain Marvel – and it really showed.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JamesC 08 May, 2019, 11:21:15 AM
What do colour and gender have to do with it?

I find it hard to believe that anyone other than a white man would have written and/or approved the conclusion of the storyline for the only woman of colour in the whole series as: "let's literally chain her up and then have her brutally murdered on-camera to make the whitest of the white girls sad."

It's a little tone deaf. This entire episode is appalling in its treatment of its female characters, even by the fairly dubious standards of the show. Sansa is OK about all the rape and brutality and stuff because it made her stronger? Really? Or Brienne is humiliated in public by the normally decent Tyrion, who then demeans her again in a later scene, and then Jaime leaves and she cries. Or even the normally pretty egalitarian Tormund thinks Jon should be king because he does stuff that Danaerys has been doing longer and better.

I don't share a lot of the complaints people have about the show and am still really enjoying it, but that line from Sansa did give me a bit of pause. Couldn't believe they would go that route, all the rape and abuse was fine because it toughened her up and made her a woman?! I'm finding myself defending a lot of the show at the moment but that was so clumsy and rotten that it landed with a real thud.

Maybe I'm being too charitable to the writers but that bit with Sansa seemed to echo the scene in the previous episode between Theon and Bran. Bran's view was that everything that had happened had brought them to this pivotal moment (and implying that it was somehow neccessary for victory - something which I think was born out with Theon's sacrificial act). It seemed reasonable that Sansa might identify with that philosophy, while not diminishing the horror of the acts themselves. Also, there's a difference between being hurt and showing you've been hurt. No way was Sansa going to let The Hound see weakness.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Mikey 08 May, 2019, 01:56:23 PM
I really don't see the point in getting exercised about someone getting killed in a series populated by a fair number of bloodthirsty, murderous narcissists meself. There's not many actual innocent, decent folk in it as they have a tendency to get killed by the aforementioned murderous ones - like what happened in that episode. I'm not suggesting it can't be read as ill considered, but for my money it was consistent with what's gone before.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 08 May, 2019, 02:05:27 PM
I really don't see the point in getting exercised about someone getting killed in a series populated by a fair number of bloodthirsty, murderous narcissists meself. There's not many actual innocent, decent folk in it as they have a tendency to get killed by the aforementioned murderous ones - like what happened in that episode. I'm not suggesting it can't be read as ill considered, but for my money it was consistent with what's gone before.

That's about what I'd have written in my next post.  I would also ask whether Ned Stark was in chains when he was beheaded, presumably so, but I won't know until I check.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Pyroxian 08 May, 2019, 02:13:07 PM
I'm not suggesting it can't be read as ill considered, but for my money it was consistent with what's gone before.

True, but it was a bit meh. Early GoT was all about the shocks and feeling that no character was safe. If they'd wanted to carry that on, they should have had Tyrion shot by all those archers (which was what I was hoping would happen). It would have had the same effect in making Danaerys angry, but would've been a shocking moment taking out one of the main players like that.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Jim_Campbell 08 May, 2019, 02:19:08 PM
That's about what I'd have written in my next post.  I would also ask whether Ned Stark was in chains when he was beheaded, presumably so, but I won't know until I check.

Was Ned Stark a black woman? Presumably you'd concede that there's slightly more baggage to that imagery for a black character than a white one, particularly in a series that's not overburdened with POC? And especially in an episode that served its female characters so poorly.

I agree with Mikey further down… for a minute I thought they might cut Tyrion down. Same plot result, but braver and a genuine shock.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Mikey 08 May, 2019, 02:40:51 PM
Yeah, I agree if Tyrion had have been killed it would have been more of an enjoyable shock, but I think Denaerys maybe wouldn't have been quite so angry, given Missandei has become a genuine friend and confidant rather than a tool to achieving her aim as such. She was already pissed off Jon was getting all the kingly accolades despite her being the acknowledged queen of the (mostly) non Lannisters.

The one thing that really didn't work for me was Jaime deciding to go back to Cersei, but on reflection there's ambiguity as to whether it's actually to support or kill her - he could be implying all the bad shit he's done was for or because of his relationship with her. He doesn't explicitly say which it is and there'd be a certain symmetry in him being King Slayer and a Queen Slayer.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: wedgeski 08 May, 2019, 03:01:52 PM
Yeah, I agree if Tyrion had have been killed it would have been more of an enjoyable shock, but I think Denaerys maybe wouldn't have been quite so angry, given Missandei has become a genuine friend and confidant rather than a tool to achieving her aim as such. She was already pissed off Jon was getting all the kingly accolades despite her being the acknowledged queen of the (mostly) non Lannisters.

The one thing that really didn't work for me was Jaime deciding to go back to Cersei, but on reflection there's ambiguity as to whether it's actually to support or kill her - he could be implying all the bad shit he's done was for or because of his relationship with her. He doesn't explicitly say which it is and there'd be a certain symmetry in him being King Slayer and a Queen Slayer.
The Jaime moment worked very well for me. You can't escape the fact that in the first couple of seasons, he was absolute scum, whatever nobility he may have discovered now. And now his character has recognised that tension as well. How can such a man possibly have a future with the most honourable character in the whole saga? Answer: he can't.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: IndigoPrime 08 May, 2019, 03:18:57 PM
Was Ned Stark a black woman?
Quite. I’ve seen a lot of a few “but look how many white men have been killed” whining elsewhere. Yes, because there are so many roles for them.

I agree with Mikey further down… for a minute I thought they might cut Tyrion down. Same plot result, but braver and a genuine shock.
Yep. But he has the plot armour power-up. And that’s the problem at this point, I suppose. It’s all about moving the pieces into position for whatever conclusion has been devised – and it shows. (Everyone who bought it in ep 3 rather conveniently had come to the end of their respective arcs/redemption threads.)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 08 May, 2019, 03:57:52 PM
Was Ned Stark a black woman?

Checks notes...

Daenerys frees Missandei from slavery: so right there you have to (for woke points) start the complaints.  It's no good complaining only now that Missandei meets an untimely end.  Plot-wise, if you want to enrage Daenerys you have to murder her best friend.  The only way to avoid murdering a black ex-slave woman at that point is to have had her not be black in the first place, or a slave, or a woman.  OR you have to go further back and make Daenerys black as well.  Or something.

Damn: modern politics is fucking difficult to navigate.  All writers should just stop writing anything.  Whatever they write, it's a terrible insult. 
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Jim_Campbell 08 May, 2019, 04:09:18 PM
Damn: modern politics is fucking difficult to navigate.  All writers should just stop writing anything.  Whatever they write, it's a terrible insult.

Oh, fuck off. Seriously. I made a much wider point than that. If you want to pretend it's all political correctness, why don't you just come right out and call me an SJW or something?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: IndigoPrime 08 May, 2019, 04:15:35 PM
if you want to enrage Daenerys you have to murder her best friend
Or, you know, do something else that would enrage her, which, let’s face it, isn’t exactly difficult.

The producers and writers made a decision to off Missandei because her arc was done, and because it would piss off Daenerys and Grey Worm. It’s borderline fridging, offing character A to motivate character B. And this is exacerbated by her being the only woman who’s a PoC of any prominence, along with, as The Atlantic noted, Missandei too often being a symbol rather than a character in her own right.

An interesting line also from Film School Rejects, who argue she should have jumped (or should have been allowed to by the scriptwriters) to at least retain some agency: https://filmschoolrejects.com/game-of-thrones-missandei/
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: broodblik 08 May, 2019, 04:22:06 PM
I am more concerned by the lack of Lattes in Westeros
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Jim_Campbell 08 May, 2019, 04:23:58 PM
An interesting line also from Film School Rejects, who argue she should have jumped (or should have been allowed to by the scriptwriters) to at least retain some agency: https://filmschoolrejects.com/game-of-thrones-missandei/

Which would actually have made more sense. Tactically, killing Missandei makes no sense other than for plot reasons to anger Daenerys and prove what an evil bitch Cersei is… neither of which really needed doing dramatically this episode. She is, after all, literally the only hostage in King's Landing Dany gives a shit about — her value to Cersei alive is considerable.

If Missandei had killed herself to free Dany to act, you end up with a plot development that a) is at least logical, and b) doesn't require fridging the only woman of colour in the series.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: broodblik 08 May, 2019, 04:29:42 PM
But that is exactly what Cersei wants, angry people make stupid and irrational decisions. Cersei do not care for the people of Kings Landing. Daenerys will not get support from anyone if she destroys Kings Landing
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Jim_Campbell 08 May, 2019, 04:33:24 PM
But that is exactly what Cersei wants, angry people make stupid and irrational decisions. Cersei do not care for the people of Kings Landing. Daenerys will not get support from anyone if she destroys Kings Landing

But Cersei will also be dead if Daenerys destroys King's Landing and we're not supposed to believe that she's suicidally evil… unless she's undergone a radical change of personality in the last couple of episodes.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: broodblik 08 May, 2019, 04:34:32 PM
Yes that is true but I ma sure she thinks even if she looses she still wins. The people will turn against Daenerys.

Adding to this if Daenerys do something irrational Cersei can say but she is truly her father’s daughter she is also “mad”
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: IndigoPrime 08 May, 2019, 04:40:29 PM
Again, it feels like moving chess pieces. Everyone needs to be in a specific position during episodes 3, 4, 5, and 6, and so how do they make that happen? It all feels a bit robotic, and like specific characters are armed with a cheat code. It’s also sloppy writing – there are plenty of other ways to show if Daenerys is becoming mad. (Ironically, they’ve done a good job at the subtler end of this, with her increasingly irrational responses to Jon Snow.)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: broodblik 08 May, 2019, 04:49:53 PM
Daenerys obsession with the Throne has systemically driven her to "madness". These acts of the last few episodes just add some oil to the simmering flame. I agree that this season feels little weaker than the previous seasons. The most difficult thing is to end a story (for me this is the make of break of the whole story)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: IndigoPrime 08 May, 2019, 05:00:14 PM
There are much bigger structural problems, some of which are quite endemic to movies/TV shows, but that GoT had largely avoided. The most obvious is the removal of the second act. So GoT has become all about set-ups and pay-offs, with no sense of time passing. It makes scenarios look impossible, and decisions seem to be absurdly impulsive. I guess that’s what happens when the creators are in a hurry to naff off and make Star Wars films.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 08 May, 2019, 05:10:09 PM
Was Ned Stark a black woman?

Checks notes...

Daenerys frees Missandei from slavery: so right there you have to (for woke points) start the complaints.  It's no good complaining only now that Missandei meets an untimely end.  Plot-wise, if you want to enrage Daenerys you have to murder her best friend.  The only way to avoid murdering a black ex-slave woman at that point is to have had her not be black in the first place, or a slave, or a woman.  OR you have to go further back and make Daenerys black as well.  Or something.


The only way I can see to have had the same types of events happen and the same people dead as of the end of the most recent episode is for Missandei to have been killed during the Longest Night and Ser Jorah to have been captured and executed.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 08 May, 2019, 05:12:02 PM
For me the scene with Euron’s fleet v Dany in the latest episode perfectly encapsulates everything that frustrates people about the (post season 4) show;

Worthless new characters that bear zero relation to their book counterpart? Check.

Characters and/or entire armies improbably appearing exactly where they need to be to serve the narrative? Check.

Crazy leaps of logic and borderline incoherent storytelling? Check.

Formerly intelligent characters doing incomprehensibly stupid things? Check.

Utterly inscrutable planning, tactics and strategy? Check.

Beloved characters and/or story elements with a deep importance to the lore (in this case one of the dragons) getting unceremoniously written out because the showrunners are tired of this shit and just want to go off and make their Star Wars movie? Check.

All it needed was yet another instance of Jon Snow implausibly escaping certain death and an excruciating pop star cameo and it would have been a full house.

As a show, it’s still entertaining, and it isn’t boring, and I’ll keep watching because I’m so invested at this point. But I don’t think its unreasonable to point out that it used to be so, so much better than this.

As an adaptation, these last few episodes have me almost convinced that the people steering the ship with regards to the show perhaps don’t have the best grasp of the source material. Per the conversation between Sansa and the Hound (and also Arya’s arc in general), the moral of the story they’re telling seems to be; vengeance is neat, might makes right, and the only way to survive in a world where monsters exist is to become one yourself, which imho couldn’t be further from the message George RR Martin is trying to convey with his novels.

Sorry if that makes me spoiled! ;-)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 08 May, 2019, 05:13:17 PM
if you want to enrage Daenerys you have to murder her best friend
Or, you know, do something else that would enrage her, which, let’s face it, isn’t exactly difficult.


They didn't need to do anything to enrage her, she'd already seen Rhaegal shot down.

An interesting line also from Film School Rejects, who argue she should have jumped (or should have been allowed to by the scriptwriters) to at least retain some agency: https://filmschoolrejects.com/game-of-thrones-missandei/ (https://filmschoolrejects.com/game-of-thrones-missandei/)


That's what I'd been expecting/hoping would happen.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 08 May, 2019, 06:11:11 PM
Damn: modern politics is fucking difficult to navigate.  All writers should just stop writing anything.  Whatever they write, it's a terrible insult.
Oh, fuck off. Seriously. I made a much wider point than that. If you want to pretend it's all political correctness, why don't you just come right out and call me an SJW or something?

I entirely accept that I might be missing something.  I was really into the books, but my wife gave up after the Red Wedding.  She felt that the books had a misogynistic streak in the way that female characters got horrifically dealt with, a lot.  I just hadn't noticed.  (I mean: I'd noticed horrible things happening to lots of people - I just hadn't come to the conclusion that it was directed especially at the female characters.)

Wouldn't it be equally insulting, though, to have Missandei (or any fem-POC character) have Woke Armor?  I appreciate the agency idea, and the swap Jorah for Missandei idea.  But I also wonder about whether the desire for political correctness is sometimes unfairly applied.  (Not that it's "gone mad", or anything.  Just a bit more forceful than might be considered entirely sane.)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JOE SOAP 09 May, 2019, 02:25:12 AM
The one thing that really didn't work for me was Jaime deciding to go back to Cersei, but on reflection there's ambiguity as to whether it's actually to support or kill her - he could be implying all the bad shit he's done was for or because of his relationship with her. He doesn't explicitly say which it is and there'd be a certain symmetry in him being King Slayer and a Queen Slayer.

With added ambiguity, the decision by Jamie to go back to Cersei was still on-point and in accordance with the growth of his character – as a knight he'd kept his word to defend the North and when the job was done he went back to Kings Landing.

I think it's more what they did to Brienne and Tyrion to get him there – which wasn't needed since seeing Bran again was the captsone on his realising the consequences of his actions and the need to atone (and possibly kill Cersei).

What was always more of a platonic relationship of mutual admiration – I'm glad someone like you exists in this world – that culminated in Jamie knighting Brienne, was suddenly turned into a bizarre episode provoked by an out-of-character line from Tyrion that results in both Jamie and Brienne responding with I'll show you virgin! – as if they ever need to prove anything of the sort to Tyrion or themselves.

I like friendly, drunken banter between characters, but that is just odd. Even a drunken shag with Tormund while Jamie slips off at dawn would've played better.

: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: IndigoPrime 09 May, 2019, 07:36:35 AM
Yep. Brienne was betrayed by the writers in an entirely unnecessary way. Quite why characters always have to fuck, I’ve no idea. The Guardian has a good take this morning: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/may/08/game-of-thrones-has-betrayed-the-women-who-made-it-great
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: wedgeski 09 May, 2019, 09:40:05 AM
What was always more of a platonic relationship of mutual admiration – I'm glad someone like you exists in this world – that culminated in Jamie knighting Brienne, was suddenly turned into a bizarre episode provoked by an out-of-character line from Tyrion that results in both Jamie and Brienne responding with I'll show you virgin! – as if they ever need to prove anything of the sort to Tyrion or themselves.
It was entirely *in* character for Season 1 or 2 drunk Tyrion, and emphasising those elements reinforces the divisions that are happening amongst the good guys, especially wrt Varis, who would have had no love for the old Tyrion. He's still the imp, and he's regressing into the alcoholic he was before leaving King's Landing.

There's a ton of stuff to dislike about the most recent episode, but I can't get behind this criticism.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 09 May, 2019, 04:59:43 PM
Didn't hate it, but didn't like it. I think the natural culmination of Jaime and Brienne's relationship was him knighting her, which was handled really well I thought, definitely a highlight of the season so far. Them shagging felt like to me like overdoing it, needlessly making their unspoken (and in my personal interpretation, platonic) love for each other very literal.

As for Tyrion, I've found his scripting in general since they ran out of Martin's dialogue to be pretty weak all round. He used to be witty and insightful, whereas now he just cracks endless lame 'jokes' about Varys not having a dick.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JOE SOAP 09 May, 2019, 05:29:02 PM
It was entirely *in* character for Season 1 or 2 drunk Tyrion, and emphasising those elements reinforces the divisions that are happening amongst the good guys, especially wrt Varis, who would have had no love for the old Tyrion. He's still the imp, and he's regressing into the alcoholic he was before leaving King's Landing.

There's a ton of stuff to dislike about the most recent episode, but I can't get behind this criticism.

And that division is something which the Varis and Tyrion scene achieves very well, without drunken Tyrion from season 1 or 2.

The Tyrion line to Brienne was written purely as motivation to move Brienne and Jamie to a situation where they could consummate an aspect of their relationship that never seemed to exist in the first place. That was cheap, and in the broader context did none of the characters any favours.

: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Aaron A Aardvark 09 May, 2019, 05:36:44 PM
Brienne’s a great character but her arc was to die in the zombie battle after being knighted by Jaime.

I enjoy GoT but respect it less and less so it’s becoming a guilty pleasure.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 13 May, 2019, 07:03:09 AM
Episode #5 gets the OMFG award.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 13 May, 2019, 07:23:35 AM
First episode of GoT I have straight up hated.

Words fail me.

Genuinely shocked at what a mess they’ve made of the ending.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: moogie101 13 May, 2019, 05:08:45 PM
Interesting reactions online for this one.

For me it's the best of the season, yeah still rushed but the Mad Queen has been teased for so long.

Now she's lost her claim to the throne, two dragons and all her close advisers who in previous episodes have held back her more murderous instincts. This carnage was the logical conclusion.

Varys was right and died for it.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 13 May, 2019, 05:53:10 PM
That's where I was, opinion-wise.  They did an amazing job of making the destruction of King's Landing traumatic viewing, I thought.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 13 May, 2019, 06:30:29 PM
George RR Martin has always said that the ending to the saga will be 'bittersweet', and has said that he wants to emulate the ending to LotR and the Scouring of the Shire in particular - in that the heroes will ultimately triumph, but that victory will come at great cost to them.

The show, on the other hand, is going for bludgeoning the audience with a relentless parade of misery and slaughter instead. There's no way the ending can be anything other than a massive downer now. It's all bitter, no sweetness. I'll say again; to interpret Martin' books as fundamentally bleak and nihilistic is - to me - missing the whole point.

There are almost too many other problems to mention;

The scorpions being completely ineffectual for no reason after being established as totally lethal against dragons in the last episode is objectively terrible writing, imo.

Likewise Tyrion yet again trying to appeal to Cersei's better nature. It didn't make any sense when he did it back in season 7 episode 7, and it certainly didn't make any two more attempts later.

And giving Cersei a tragic death scene that we're apparently(?) supposed to be sad and sympathetic about is an absolute joke.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 13 May, 2019, 06:45:05 PM
The scorpions being completely ineffectual for no reason after being established as totally lethal against dragons in the last episode is objectively terrible writing, imo.

Just to take that one point: I don't think it's terrible writing rather than awkward filming.  When Rhaegal is shot down by the scorpions of Euron's Iron Fleet, it's supposed to be a sneak attack.  If only they'd managed to make that work well on film!  (As it was, it looked like Dany was being careless by not noticing a huge fleet of ships, and that the scorpions were way too accurate over such a long distance.)

But, if they'd managed to portray that in a better way it would stand to reason that Qyburn and Cersei (& Euron) felt that the scorpions were their best bet.  But, they also backed that up with a meat shield, so they weren't 100% confident.   

Dany knew what the scorpions were capable of, but also had faith in her flying skills.  We can argue that last week, shocked by the death of Rhaegal, she felt like discretion was the better part of valor and didn't tackle the Iron Fleet then.

Ultimately, she gambled everything on Drogon's ability to out-fly the scorpions.  She gambled and won.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: broodblik 13 May, 2019, 07:32:37 PM
New theory: Arya will kill a queen but not the one she thought she would
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 13 May, 2019, 07:50:56 PM
Ya think?  ::)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: broodblik 13 May, 2019, 07:54:52 PM
Maybe people get their boss-battle after the night king one shot kill  :)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Steve Green 13 May, 2019, 08:34:45 PM
Long bit about the episode, deleted because I really couldn't be arsed
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Rusty 13 May, 2019, 08:35:12 PM
The Arya Stark Show and Stuff - A song of Contrived Subversion

That should be the new name after series 8. What an absolute trainwreck. How they've managed to fuck this up so bad is beyond comprehension.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: IndigoPrime 13 May, 2019, 10:10:34 PM
I guess the Scorpions are like Stormtroopers – they only hit things when the plot demands it. As for  Rhaegal, he lacked a rider, was smaller and weaker, and was injured and so less manoeuvrable.

That said, Mrs IP’s comment just now: “That’s really pisses me off. I’ll watch the last one but... that episode really annoyed me.” I by contrast felt it had a kind of crushing inevitability. GoT has turned into a box-ticking exercise and that episode was disaster porn. I didn’t enjoy it. It was like watching a car wreck.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 13 May, 2019, 10:28:39 PM
I can't figure out what people would have preferred, to be honest.

That was Saving Private Arya levels of visceral war reality: like they managed to convey what it would be like to be in a city being ruthlessly devastated by a dragon and an invading army let off the leash.  Why should that be a nice experience?

Also: would it be better if Dany's dragon was downed and her army lost?  Or, at the crucial bell-ringing decision point, if the rest of the episode was Cersei on trial and Dany being magnanimous?

The books and the show start with the concept that the north is uncomfortably ruled by the south - a problem that has persisted for generations.  What I hope is that the show resolves that problem. 
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: IndigoPrime 13 May, 2019, 10:38:52 PM
There’s a line between horror and porn. This crossed that line by many minutes.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 13 May, 2019, 10:41:49 PM
For me it's the best of the season, yeah still rushed but the Mad Queen has been teased for so long.

Now she's lost her claim to the throne, two dragons and all her close advisers who in previous episodes have held back her more murderous instincts. This carnage was the logical conclusion.

The setup for Dany’s heel turn was woefully inadequate as far as I’m concerned. The way the show set it up I could totally see her burning down a path to the Red Keep with no regard for bystanders, but there is a monumental difference between that and actively deciding to genocide an entire city of innocent men, women and children just because. I will never, ever buy it as a logical storytelling choice.

I don't doubt that 'Dany burns down King's Landing' is a plot point that came from Martin. Dany going full-on conqueror is her pretty much signposted by her last chapter in the last published book. However, it is also widely speculated that following the disaster at KL (which will most likely largely be due to Dany inadvertently igniting the wildfire caches buried under the city) she will be wracked with guilt and abandon her hopes of claiming the throne, eventually finding redemption by heading north to fight the army of the dead alongside Jon Snow and (probably) Stannis, a battle in which she will one way or another end up giving her life and the lives of the dragons.

To me, that’s an immensely more satisfying and logical conclusion to her arc, and the saga as a whole, and really fits the ‘bittersweet’ theme that Martin describes. You get the pathos, the moral ambiguity, and you still get a dragon raining firey death over King’s Landing, but you get it without throwing Dany’s entire arc under the bus. The way it played out in the show is a miserable nightmare with no hope of resolution or redemption. Yeah - Arya’s gonna kill her next episode. Honestly, who gives a shit? How depressing. Are we supposed to glean some kind of satisfaction from that? If you’d have told me five years ago that this is how the story would end, I’d have laughed out loud. It’s like they let a teenage edgelord write it; 'And then this happens, and then this happens, and then this guy kills this and this guy and then this guys blows this thing up, and then...'.

I also cannot fathom the degree to which Jon Snow has been sidelined this final season. He is arguably the central protagonist of the entire saga - the literal embodiment of the ‘Ice and Fire’ in the title of the series, and he’s been given almost nothing to do.

All I can is that I hope this travesty reignites Martin’s interest in wrapping up the book series, because he surely can’t be happy with this being the official ending of the saga.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 13 May, 2019, 10:43:34 PM
There’s a line between horror and porn. This crossed that line by many minutes.

Hyperbole much?  I'm fairly secure in assuming that the dictionary definition of porn doesn't come into play here. 

How does one get across the feeling of relentless bombardment without it being ... relentless?  See also: "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit" in Lord of the Rings.  We feel a strong empathy with the long trail of trials that Frodo, Sam and Gollum face partly because we spend a long time on the trail with them.  Or is that just quest porn?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Rusty 13 May, 2019, 10:47:44 PM
For me it's the best of the season, yeah still rushed but the Mad Queen has been teased for so long.

Now she's lost her claim to the throne, two dragons and all her close advisers who in previous episodes have held back her more murderous instincts. This carnage was the logical conclusion.

The setup for Dany’s heel turn was woefully inadequate as far as I’m concerned. The way the show set it up I could totally see her burning down a path to the Red Keep with no regard for bystanders, but there is a monumental difference between that and actively deciding to genocide an entire city of innocent men, women and children just because. I will never, ever buy it as a logical storytelling choice.

I don't doubt that 'Dany burns down King's Landing' is a plot point that came from Martin. Dany going full-on conqueror is her pretty much signposted by her last chapter in the last published book. However, it is also widely speculated that following the disaster at KL (which will most likely largely be due to Dany inadvertently igniting the wildfire caches buried under the city) she will be wracked with guilt and abandon her hopes of claiming the throne, eventually finding redemption by heading north to fight the army of the dead alongside Jon Snow and (probably) Stannis, a battle in which she will one way or another end up giving her life and the lives of the dragons.

To me, that’s an immensely more satisfying and logical conclusion to her arc, and the saga as a whole, and really fits the ‘bittersweet’ theme that Martin describes. You get the pathos, the moral ambiguity, and you still get a dragon raining firey death over King’s Landing, but you get it without throwing Dany’s entire arc under the bus. The way it played out in the show is a miserable nightmare with no hope of resolution or redemption. Yeah - Arya’s gonna kill her next episode. Honestly, who gives a shit? How depressing. Are we supposed to glean some kind of satisfaction from that? If you’d have told me five years ago that this is how the story would end, I’d have laughed out loud. It’s like they let a teenage edgelord write it; 'And then this happens, and then this happens, and then this guy kills this and this guy and then this guys blows this thing up, and then...'.

I also cannot fathom the degree to which Jon Snow has been sidelined this final season. He is arguably the central protagonist of the entire saga - the literal embodiment of the ‘Ice and Fire’ in the title of the series, and he’s been given almost nothing to do.

All I can is that I hope this travesty reignites Martin’s interest in wrapping up the book series, because he surely can’t be happy with this being the official ending of the saga.
That would have made so much more sense. Unfortunately we've got two hack frauds in charge of the writing on this. Basically, this is equivalent of the scene in Trainspotting when Spud shit the bed, and then carried it into the dining area where it then subsequently got jettisoned all over the place.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 13 May, 2019, 10:51:19 PM
There’s a line between horror and porn. This crossed that line by many minutes.

Hyperbole much?  I'm fairly secure in assuming that the dictionary definition of porn doesn't come into play here. 

How does one get across the feeling of relentless bombardment without it being ... relentless?  See also: "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit" in Lord of the Rings.  We feel a strong empathy with the long trail of trials that Frodo, Sam and Gollum face partly because we spend a long time on the trail with them.  Or is that just quest porn?

For me, with Hardhome, the Battle of the Bastards, then the loot train battle, then The Long Night, and now this latest episode I just feel deadened by all the senseless slaughter. It's all just so one-note. Is that really all this was leading to? Just watching thousands of extras get mowed down week in, week out?

And that's not to say that all of those battles weren't incredibly well-exectued on a technical level. I just wasn't anywhere near as invested or on edge as I was say during the fight between the Mountain and the Viper back in season 4 where the emotional stakes felt so much higher.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Professor Bear 13 May, 2019, 11:44:20 PM
If King's Landing hadn't been hoarding Wildfire in those children's hospitals, the collateral damage would have been much lower, but you fire tactical long range arrows into sovereign territory like Cersi did and you will be met with a proportionate response - unless you dragon-hating leftists are going to seriously argue that Daenerys isn't entitled to defend herself.  It's hardly Daenerys' fault that so many people in King's Landing were brainwashed by Cersi into getting in the way of that dragon, but then they don't value life like we do and they see dying as an acceptable cost to making the only legitimate democracy in Westeros look bad.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Richard 13 May, 2019, 11:53:52 PM
I don't know what to say; if you don't like violence then maybe Game of Thrones isn't for you?  ::)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 14 May, 2019, 01:36:01 AM
I like fictional violence just fine. Doesn't mean I want to watch a solid hour of it. The latest episode felt wildly excessive to me, and in service of what, exactly? What is the point or message of this story? All that brilliant worldbuilding and character work early on, and this is all it comes down to? Violence begetting more violence and so on and so on.... It all just made me feel exhausted, a bit sad and a little bored, tbh. I expected a lot more from the ending to this story.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Tiplodocus 14 May, 2019, 07:36:36 AM
A lot of empty, apocolyptic spectacle in that with strange story telling and character decisions left me feeling a bit "So what?".

"Hey, Mr. Director. Should we maybe have just a single reaction shot of what Daenerys was feeling from atop the dragon?"

"No, we haven't time. There's still ten more minutes of women and children being immolated to fit in"

"Are you sure the A-bomb point hasn't been driven home yet?"

Which is a shame because I really like Game Of Thrones.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Eamonn Clarke 14 May, 2019, 08:56:50 AM
Jeez, what are they putting in that Westeros coffee?  ;)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Dudley 14 May, 2019, 09:00:07 AM
Couple of notes from history occurred while watching this:

1) Dany has always been most closely allied with the GoT equivalent of the Mongols. What she did to King's Landing was gentle compared to what the Mongols did to cities that defied them in any way.  I thought this was absolutely true to her individual character and her upbringing.

2) Probably just me, but it's in slightly poor taste to use the streets of Dubrovnik as a way of giving us all our vicarious war jollies. Less than 30 years ago those streets were actually bombed to hell - just weird thinking about how a survivor might view this glossy American programme essentially staging a fantasy re-enactment.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Dudley 14 May, 2019, 09:00:39 AM
If King's Landing hadn't been hoarding Wildfire in those children's hospitals, the collateral damage would have been much lower, but you fire tactical long range arrows into sovereign territory like Cersi did and you will be met with a proportionate response - unless you dragon-hating leftists are going to seriously argue that Daenerys isn't entitled to defend herself.  It's hardly Daenerys' fault that so many people in King's Landing were brainwashed by Cersi into getting in the way of that dragon, but then they don't value life like we do and they see dying as an acceptable cost to making the only legitimate democracy in Westeros look bad.

Hahhahahahahahahahahhahaohgodsob
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JamesC 14 May, 2019, 10:48:16 AM
I liked it.
Does that make me a bad person?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Keef Monkey 14 May, 2019, 11:12:08 AM
I liked it.
Does that make me a bad person?

I liked it too, so hopefully not.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: IAMTHESYSTEM 14 May, 2019, 11:25:46 AM
I watch the good bits on YouTube so yes it's grim stuff, but maybe that's the point? Daenerys is just another Queen who claims she wants to liberate all people, but in reality, she wants her self on the Iron Throne, not anyone else. If she ruthlessly destroys her enemies Genghis Khan style, she gets what she wants, revenge and to be the undisputed Leader of Westeros. The brutal killing of the innocent non-combatants happens all the time in modern warfare, and so since GoT parallel's our world [a world turned upside down by events], it shows that grim ugly truth in no uncertain terms. Daenerys despite all her beautiful words wants the Throne no matter what the cost to others and so she behaves accordingly. Also, I understand she's probably going to be revealed to be deteriorating into madness in the final episode, and like Daddy, she'll have to be done in perhaps by Arya or Jon if he's not dead trying to kill her the bittersweet ending. Yes, a lot of that episode didn't seem to gel well, but that's the way the Writers decided to take it which proved divisive and a bit confusing. If Daenerys proves to be no better than any other King or Queen before her why route for her? That I suspect is why they did this with some vicious relish your beliefs in the goodness of those wishing power are misplaced. An obsession with obtaining and maintaining Political Power makes you capable of any horror's. Even the 'good' can become Beasts to Power's uncompromising demands.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: IndigoPrime 14 May, 2019, 11:52:00 AM
I never saw her as a benevolent force nor someone who was inherently good. I suspect that aspect has really shocked people, who assumed things would be more black and white (and have somehow forgotten all the shit she’s already done). But after we’d seen the twist, that nonetheless felt like a gut punch. Then the punches continued to rain down, with the best part of an hour of television dedicated to burning bodies in the streets. Perhaps some people wanted – needed – revelled in – the carnage. For me, it was too much. Sure, the contextless (in the sense we barely even see Daenerys during the destruction) brutality is ultimately the point; but it ended up being an episode I can barely admire, let alone ‘like’, not least due to the manner in which this season has been constructed, stripping out its humanity, logic, and soul.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JamesC 14 May, 2019, 12:27:52 PM
I thought the various reactions to the carnage were really interesting.
The scene with John Snow losing control of his army and Grey Worm deciding to massacre the surrendering troops was excellent. Dani's behaviour seemed believable to me - it's interesting to think that the moment the bells tolled she was effectively Queen and her first act was to pick up right where her father left off. Jamie just wants to be Cersei's shining knight - and that's enough for him. Cersei, murderous scum that she is, is still a mother who wants to protect her child. The Hound is utterly single minded and when it looks like Arya is too, we realise that behind the fearless assassin there's still a young girl who's afraid to die. I felt sorry for Tyrion. He's finally realised he backed the wrong horse. I have a feeling it may be him who kills Dani (echoing Jamie's act), with Arya taking out Grey Worm and John on dragon rustling duty.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 14 May, 2019, 12:46:30 PM
I thought the various reactions to the carnage were really interesting.
The scene with John Snow losing control of his army and Grey Worm deciding to massacre the surrendering troops was excellent. Dani's behaviour seemed believable to me - it's interesting to think that the moment the bells tolled she was effectively Queen and her first act was to pick up right where her father left off.


As the episode unfolded, my first thought was that (after the bells) she was destroying her own defences as the city was hers from that point.  Of course, it got worse from there on.  Funny how we didn't get any reaction shots of Dany from that point.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JamesC 14 May, 2019, 12:52:56 PM
People online are saying lots about the scorpions being ineffective.
These people have obviously never played Nemesis or R-Type. Everyone gets taken out by those little turrets the first time, but once you know where they are...
 :lol:
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: IndigoPrime 14 May, 2019, 01:03:01 PM
Those things were a bit Stormtrooper for me. So you can shoot – an admittedly injured dragon – THROUGH THE NECK, after already having hit it twice, thereby enjoying a 100 per cent hit rate? But then every single ship shoots at Drogon and somehow misses? Pfft.

I suspect if one were to return to earlier Game of Thrones seasons and episodes, they would have their smatterings of plot/recurring character armour too, but they’ve never been quite so evident as during this run-in. Poor old Rhaegal – you were screwed over for a rubbish plot twist, as enacted by the worst villain the series had.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Keef Monkey 14 May, 2019, 02:23:05 PM
Those things were a bit Stormtrooper for me. So you can shoot – an admittedly injured dragon – THROUGH THE NECK, after already having hit it twice, thereby enjoying a 100 per cent hit rate? But then every single ship shoots at Drogon and somehow misses? Pfft.

I suspect if one were to return to earlier Game of Thrones seasons and episodes, they would have their smatterings of plot/recurring character armour too, but they’ve never been quite so evident as during this run-in. Poor old Rhaegal – you were screwed over for a rubbish plot twist, as enacted by the worst villain the series had.

Was the difference this time not that the dragon approached with the sun at its back? There were shots of Euron and co. struggling to get a bead on the dragon because of the sun, but they maybe could have made more of it. It seems a bit of an obvious tactic that you'd imagine Cersei's army would have thought of, but it's always seemed that mob had more arrogance than tactical savvy. I thought it was pretty fitting that something as simple as that made the difference.

People online are saying lots about the scorpions being ineffective.
These people have obviously never played Nemesis or R-Type. Everyone gets taken out by those little turrets the first time, but once you know where they are...
 :lol:

I like this explanation better though!  :lol:
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: broodblik 14 May, 2019, 03:51:58 PM
A dark episode and showed Daenerys transition into "madness". The girl we all liked in the first few seasons are now gone. We felt pity for her that she "lost" everything and have to life in exile. But even in the beginning  she actually only cared about what she wanted (her right to sit on the throne). Yes, I liked the episode.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Dudley 14 May, 2019, 05:14:29 PM
In the books Euron's horn totally works, I guess?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: shaolin_monkey 14 May, 2019, 05:40:33 PM
She went bad faster than Anakin turned to the Dark Side.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 14 May, 2019, 07:01:30 PM
Probably just me, but it's in slightly poor taste to use the streets of Dubrovnik as a way of giving us all our vicarious war jollies. Less than 30 years ago those streets were actually bombed to hell - just weird thinking about how a survivor might view this glossy American programme essentially staging a fantasy re-enactment.

Dubrovnik was heavily shelled during the Croatian War of Independence (1991).  Whilst the King's Landing bombardment is partially filmed in Dubrovnik (and partially recreated on a set in Belfast), they modeled the fiery rain of destruction on the allied fire bombing of Dresden in 1945.

Whilst Game of Thrones is a form of entertainment, I don't think that disallows it from tackling difficult themes (such as the horrors of a civilian population being bombarded or a city being pillaged).  One might call it subversive.  Whilst watching it, rather than getting "war jollies", I felt shaken by the plight of the characters.  We could do with being reminded of Dresden's plight once in a while. 

Where some see nothing but hired extras running around on fire, I was transported to the world and engaged in the hope that the mother and daughter would survive - or maybe just the daughter.  But they died holding each other.  That people find this drama boring strikes me as odd. 

A key part of Game of Thrones appeal to me is that it feels like a real world.  Heroes die ignobly. Villains carry out atrocities but then gain our sympathy.  We follow power hungry egomaniacs and feel betrayed when we realize what they are.  Innocents die.  It's not a neat Hero's Quest.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 14 May, 2019, 07:24:10 PM
The brutal killing of the innocent non-combatants happens all the time in modern warfare, and so since GoT parallel's our world it shows that grim ugly truth in no uncertain terms.

Well firstly, the show has already made that point pretty bloody thoroughly by now, wouldn't you say? And as I said before, there’s a world of difference between collateral damage and deliberate slaughter. This was the latter, which is why it was so wildly out of character, despite what anyone says.

I never saw her as a benevolent force nor someone who was inherently good. I suspect that aspect has really shocked people, who assumed things would be more black and white (and have somehow forgotten all the shit she’s already done).

To me, the whole retroactive ’Dany was always crazy’ slogan that’s doing the rounds is bunkum, and I think it’s a mistake to judge the actions of characters by modern moral standards when they are operating in a quasi-medieval feudal society. Dany has wielded political violence (as anyone in her position needs to, given the circumstances), and she’s made mistakes for sure, but she has also (mostly) been acting as a force for good in the world and is by and large a protector of the oppressed. I’m curious whether you apply the same moral judgement to Jon, or Ned, or Robb, all three of whom have executed people for breaking oaths, or simply for refusing to obey their orders… What makes their authority or dispensing of justice more legitimate than Dany’s?

I’ve also never seen Dany through the lens of ‘black/white or good/evil’. Many characters in the series do terrible things for noble reasons and vice/versa. If anything, my issue is with the show is precisely for having a rather binary mindset, as evidenced by flipping Dany’s ‘evil’ setting to ‘on’ in an incredibly jarring way. Do I think Dany's relentless pursuit of power will ultimately result in disaster in the books? Yes. Do I think she will suddenly flip to being a psychopathic mass murderer because she gets a bit upset? No. Never.

A key part of Game of Thrones appeal to me is that it feels like a real world.  Heroes die ignobly. Villains carry out atrocities but then gain our sympathy.  We follow power hungry egomaniacs and feel betrayed when we realize what they are.  Innocents die.  It's not a neat Hero's Quest.

Agreed, however the TV show has a nihilistic streak to it that the books do not have, and that nihilism has now completely overtaken the narrative. I, like millions of others, love these characters., and I want more from an ending to their respective stories than just speculating on which of them will kill the other. And that’s pretty much all the show has been reduced to now… My worry is without the romanticism and idealism of the books, you’re left with nothing to balance out the bleakness and cynicism, and if so, what was actually the point of it all?

If anyone’s interested, this video, a few years old now, perfectly nails the fundamental difference between the philosophy of the show and the books: https://youtu.be/ek2O6bVAIQQ (https://youtu.be/ek2O6bVAIQQ)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Jim_Campbell 14 May, 2019, 07:34:13 PM
To me, the whole retroactive ’Dany was always crazy’ slogan that’s doing the rounds is bunkum

Balls. I've been saying this for at least three seasons. It's been effectively foreshadowed as at least a possibility for pretty much the entire series. You can not like it but to claim it comes out of the blue is just rubbish and "despite what anyone says" is just arrogant rubbish.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Rusty 14 May, 2019, 08:21:04 PM
Foreshadowing is one thing. Events and actions of the past indicate otherwise and back up the fact that it was out of character. People seem to point towards a mundane line of dialogue, it being "I will take what is mine, through fire and blood!" as some kind of vindication of what she did. Fire and blood, yes, certainly; slaughter of innocent women and babies...er...what?! This especially goes against the grain of her character, seeing that she locked up her 'children' in a dank dungeon under Meereen after Drogon roasted a child. Before that she turned vengeful of the masters having walked past a child nailed to a post, and made it her chief cause to free them and the slaves of Astapor and Meereen of their masters. There has been zero evidence in her character whatsoever to suddenly want to slaughter the innocent, so that's why her actions at KL feel wrong, and out of character, because they are jarring and seemingly spring from nowhere. This is not to say her turning evil and vengeful couldn't be a trait within her, as there have been subtle clues of it, but seeing that the writers have dumbed down the other characters that have kept her in check all this time, it's gave them the green light for them to make her go full blown Anakin dark side. At the drop of a hat, no less.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Frank 14 May, 2019, 08:57:49 PM
Probably just me, but it's in slightly poor taste to use the streets of Dubrovnik as a way of giving us all our vicarious war jollies. Less than 30 years ago those streets were actually bombed to hell - just weird thinking about how a survivor might view this glossy American programme essentially staging a fantasy re-enactment.

Dubrovnik was heavily shelled during the Croatian War of Independence (1991).  Whilst the King's Landing bombardment is partially filmed in Dubrovnik (and partially recreated on a set in Belfast), they modeled the fiery rain of destruction on the allied fire bombing of Dresden in 1945.

Whilst Game of Thrones is a form of entertainment, I don't think that disallows it from tackling difficult themes (such as the horrors of a civilian population being bombarded or a city being pillaged).  One might call it subversive.  Whilst watching it, rather than getting "war jollies", I felt shaken by the plight of the characters.  We could do with being reminded of Dresden's plight once in a while.

Fans of The News had Aleppo (https://www.nbcnews.com/video/image-of-bloodied-syrian-boy-covered-in-dust-after-airstrike-resonates-online-746506307969) in mind when a dazed and bloodied Arya woke up in the ruins, covered in more plastering dust than The Nephilim.

Half of the online commentary about the show seems to come from those who've never wasted a second of their lives imagining what it might be like to be on the receiving end of precision airstrikes designed to reduce enemy capability, so bludgeoning them into some form of imaginative empathy by sticking Hillary Clinton on top of a B2-Stealth Dragon seems like a pretty sick burn.

Y'all are too invested in the show*. I'm sure it's not working out the way you wanted, but the plotting and drama's mostly solid. It's not up there with The Sopranos or Mad Men, but it can show its face alongside Boardwalk Empire and Godless.


* I've only watched this season. I didn't want to have anything in common with the pricks who can't wait to tell everyone they've never seen it, as if that's some kind of accomplishment.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Mikey 14 May, 2019, 09:07:21 PM
To me, the whole retroactive ’Dany was always crazy’ slogan that’s doing the rounds is bunkum

Balls. I've been saying this for at least three seasons. It's been effectively foreshadowed as at least a possibility for pretty much the entire series. You can not like it but to claim it comes out of the blue is just rubbish

Pretty much what Jim said. I see Denaerys acting entirely consistently with who she actually is and reacting to what has happened to her, finally realising it was all pointless if she was not going to be loved by saving the populace of Kings Landing. She didn't want a surrender, she wanted to be the magnanimous victor and gain the devotion of the people. Is it only me who has noticed the final nails on her coffin so to speak have ultimately been hammered in by the betrayal of the men she trusted?

Anyway, I thought it was a great, epic episode. This series may be the expansion pack to the main Game, but it's none the worse for that in my view. It's all falling to pieces for everyone because of the fixation on who sits on the Iron Throne.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JOE SOAP 14 May, 2019, 09:14:13 PM
I enjoyed the episode immensely and the cinders of Randyll and Dickon Tarly say 'told ya so'.

: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Jim_Campbell 15 May, 2019, 07:39:36 AM
I am so dense. The conversation Varys has with the girl from the kitchen is because he’s trying to poison Dany. In a season that has (rightly) been criticised for lacking subtlety, that was rather splendid and ties right back to the Varys we met in Season One.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Dudley 15 May, 2019, 08:51:25 AM
I am so dense. The conversation Varys has with the girl from the kitchen is because he’s trying to poison Dany. In a season that has (rightly) been criticised for lacking subtlety, that was rather splendid and ties right back to the Varys we met in Season One.

Yep, and that might come back to us in the season finale (that's why he took the rings off - they contained the poison). How appropriate would it be for Dany to die at the hands of an entirely unimportant character, in revenge for all the "unimportant" lives she snuffed out?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Jim_Campbell 15 May, 2019, 09:12:23 AM
Yep, and that might come back to us in the season finale (that's why he took the rings off - they contained the poison). How appropriate would it be for Dany to die at the hands of an entirely unimportant character, in revenge for all the "unimportant" lives she snuffed out?

Oooh. I can hear the fan outrage from here. And, yes, that would be perfect.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 15 May, 2019, 09:42:20 AM
Dubrovnik was heavily shelled during the Croatian War of Independence (1991).  Whilst the King's Landing bombardment is partially filmed in Dubrovnik (and partially recreated on a set in Belfast), they modeled the fiery rain of destruction on the allied fire bombing of Dresden in 1945.

Whilst Game of Thrones is a form of entertainment, I don't think that disallows it from tackling difficult themes (such as the horrors of a civilian population being bombarded or a city being pillaged).  One might call it subversive.  Whilst watching it, rather than getting "war jollies", I felt shaken by the plight of the characters.  We could do with being reminded of Dresden's plight once in a while. 

Where some see nothing but hired extras running around on fire, I was transported to the world and engaged in the hope that the mother and daughter would survive - or maybe just the daughter.  But they died holding each other.  That people find this drama boring strikes me as odd. 

A key part of Game of Thrones appeal to me is that it feels like a real world.  Heroes die ignobly. Villains carry out atrocities but then gain our sympathy.  We follow power hungry egomaniacs and feel betrayed when we realize what they are.  Innocents die.  It's not a neat Hero's Quest.


In an era where we get (supposedly) respectable politicians wanting to bomb other countries 'back to the stone age', it is important that our real world general populace sees what that actually looks like (preferably before it happens in the real world).
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: shaolin_monkey 15 May, 2019, 02:13:20 PM
My prophecy:

While the others kill themselves fighting each other, Tyrion hides under a table until it is all over.  Then he gains the throne.

But lo!  Here's comes Bron out of nowhere - Tyrion has no taste for being a ruler after everything he has experienced, and owes Bron anyway for not assinsinating Tyrion in an earlier episode.  Hence, Bron gets the Iron Throne.
 
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 15 May, 2019, 03:34:15 PM
Ozzy Man (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uNgQ-lK9ks) does a great high energy review of episode #5.  Even if you disagree with his opinion (2nd half of the video), his synopsis (1st half) is worth a watch.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Mister Pops 15 May, 2019, 03:57:26 PM
My prophecy:

While the others kill themselves fighting each other, Tyrion hides under a table until it is all over.  Then he gains the throne.

But lo!  Here's comes Bron out of nowhere - Tyrion has no taste for being a ruler after everything he has experienced, and owes Bron anyway for not assinsinating Tyrion in an earlier episode.  Hence, Bron gets the Iron Throne.

The only flaw with this prediction is that the Iron Throne has probably been reduced to an Iron Puddle
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Bolt-01 15 May, 2019, 04:12:01 PM
Not necessarily - remember that Dani had a vision where she approached the Iron throne in a snowstorm, what if that was actually ash?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Richard 15 May, 2019, 04:35:45 PM
In the trailer for the next episode, some of the Red Keep is still standing (I'm not sure how, if the catacombs caved in, but never mind), so that could include the throne room.

I assume Danerys will kill Tyrion for freeing Jamie. I'm not sure what the point is of Bron's storyline now, but let's see.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 15 May, 2019, 09:53:56 PM
Not necessarily - remember that Dani had a vision where she approached the Iron throne in a snowstorm, what if that was actually ash?


Nice one - all the walls are ruined in that vision too...
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: IAMTHESYSTEM 15 May, 2019, 09:58:42 PM
I'm not sure what the point is of Bron's storyline now, but let's see.

Class War! Bron will storm the Red Keep ruins with his sellsword mates, kill Daenerys, force Jon to retake the Black, be named King Bron First of his name etc. Then the best moment in the series as Bron commands the startled survivors thus: 'Now build me my Fookin' Castle.' It'll be the most epic ending in TV History.;)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Leigh S 15 May, 2019, 11:15:15 PM
I am always suspicious of Chosen Ones, be they Skywalkers, Potters or Targareyans.

That said, I don't think showing her with her hair all witchy and no make up was enough to sell me on her being mad, but you know, women, ey? - Hell hath no Fury and all that - It's true the sense of her being obsessed with getting the throne was set up, but becoming the thing she has fought against WHEN SHE HAS GOT IT was the step too far  more than anything, tied in with the level of intended destruction - having her go for the keep and setting off the Wildfire would have been a great moment and acheived much the same thing - a wonderful irony of the daughter finishing what the father began. 

Of course, all of this could have been avoided by John Snow not being an enormous prat and waving his birth certificate in everybody's face whilst going "but I don't care who gets the house in the will"
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Richard 15 May, 2019, 11:18:42 PM
Best summary of Jon Snow ever.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Jim_Campbell 15 May, 2019, 11:42:50 PM
Stark men… fucking idiots, the lot of them. Ned Stark: dead because he chose honour without considering the political repercussions. Robb Stark: dead because he chose love without considering the political repercussions. Jon Snow: dead because he chose to the right thing without considering the political repercussions. Admittedly, he got better… but still dead. Rickon Stark: dead because he was too stupid to run in a zig-zag. Bran Stark: not dead, but happy to let literally everyone else die because he’s too busy fucking about with ravens to do anything useful.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: wedgeski 16 May, 2019, 09:49:24 AM
Intense. Quite the viewing experience. I mean, how often is TV going to put us in the middle of a city being WMD'd by a fire-breathing dragon? Pretty stunning stuff.

Structurally amd narratively it has similar problems to other recent episodes. They're really going to have to pull something special out of the bag next week, but with nothing left to resolve except Jon vs. Dany and who takes the throne, if anyone, I don't see how they can. I'd love to be schooled on that though.

Over the years I've learned not to let disappointing sequels tarnish my love for earlier films in the series (Alien 3 taught me that), but it's a little sad the writers felt they had to resort to narrative tricks that would be beneath a show of much less importance than Thrones.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Tiplodocus 16 May, 2019, 11:25:31 AM
I've had a think about this a bit more and I am coming round to the thinking that actually more was more in this case.

It did need to be absolutely clear that this was the work of a mad tyrant. This was not accidental or even accepted collateral damage from one attack run at the Red Keep.

This was intense and prolonged genocide from a person who, if you didn't get it from the Mereen crucifixations or burning the Tarley's is capable of any cruel act.

And keeping reaction shots of her out of it keeps us in the same frame of reference as the characters on the ground. "Why is she doing this? And why? And what choice am I going to make?"

: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 16 May, 2019, 10:09:02 PM
Half a million people throw organized hissy fit (https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-48303921).  No doubt they could all have done a better job with the script. 

I read that 18.4 million watched the last episode through official platforms, and an estimated 55.2 million through space piracy (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48301348).

So the half a million on that petition makes up a stonking 0.7% of the viewers.

: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: moogie101 16 May, 2019, 10:33:54 PM
Half a million people throw organized hissy fit (https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-48303921).  No doubt they could all have done a better job with the script. 

I read that 18.4 million watched the last episode through official platforms, and an estimated 55.2 million through space piracy (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48301348).

So the half a million on that petition makes up a stonking 0.7% of the viewers.

Lol, that is amazing. What a world we live in.

My only concern with this and the last season is they've been cut short to save money so a lot of things are being rushed.

The writers might not have the source material anymore, but they have George's notes and surely they seek his input especially for anything major.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JOE SOAP 16 May, 2019, 11:08:05 PM
I read that 18.4 million watched the last episode through official platforms.

That would probably only account for the US audience. GoT is available in 170 countries.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 16 May, 2019, 11:56:44 PM
My only concern with this and the last season is they've been cut short to save money so a lot of things are being rushed.

The writers might not have the source material anymore, but they have George's notes and surely they seek his input especially for anything major.

They've not been cut short - other than the extra year between series, the network offered them 10 episodes per series.  Though D & D are on their way on to Star Wars next, so were more interested in the next gig than the current one...
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: moogie101 17 May, 2019, 12:14:53 AM
My only concern with this and the last season is they've been cut short to save money so a lot of things are being rushed.

The writers might not have the source material anymore, but they have George's notes and surely they seek his input especially for anything major.

They've not been cut short - other than the extra year between series, the network offered them 10 episodes per series.  Though D & D are on their way on to Star Wars next, so were more interested in the next gig than the current one...

I didn't say who was responsible for the fewer episodes just that this and last series have less than the usual ten episodes which has clearly resulted in things being rushed.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 17 May, 2019, 12:47:30 AM
The writers might not have the source material anymore, but they have George's notes and surely they seek his input especially for anything major.

I could be wrong, but the way I understand it is that Martin has had very little to do with the show in recent years (as opposed to the first 4 seasons when he would contribute scripts and presumably spend time in the writers room), and as far as I know his last direct input was a meeting with the show writers 5-6 years ago where he basically gave them a list of loose plot points that make up the ending. Remember that he hasn't actually finished the 6th book in the series yet, so probably only has a relatively loose sketch of how all of the climactic events fit together himself.

I'm guessing that one of the points on that list was 'Danaerys destroys King's Landing', and the last episode was the show writers own interpretation of that. I'm still very much of the opinion that the circumstances of that event in the books will be drastically different to how it goes down in the TV show - likewise with Stannis burning Shireen.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: wedgeski 17 May, 2019, 09:43:48 AM
The writers might not have the source material anymore, but they have George's notes and surely they seek his input especially for anything major.

I could be wrong, but the way I understand it is that Martin has had very little to do with the show in recent years (as opposed to the first 4 seasons when he would contribute scripts and presumably spend time in the writers room), and as far as I know his last direct input was a meeting with the show writers 5-6 years ago where he basically gave them a list of loose plot points that make up the ending. Remember that he hasn't actually finished the 6th book in the series yet, so probably only has a relatively loose sketch of how all of the climactic events fit together himself.

I'm guessing that one of the points on that list was 'Danaerys destroys King's Landing', and the last episode was the show writers own interpretation of that. I'm still very much of the opinion that the circumstances of that event in the books will be drastically different to how it goes down in the TV show - likewise with Stannis burning Shireen.
Well disclaimer, I haven't read the books, but GRRM's story will have exactly the same problems to solve as the TV show-runners, i.e. how to smash all these massive armies together in any way that is satisfying on a character level? I plan to read the books when they're all done, so I look forward to discovering his solution. :)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Jim_Campbell 17 May, 2019, 09:47:54 AM
Well disclaimer, I haven't read the books, but GRRM's story will have exactly the same problems to solve as the TV show-runners, i.e. how to smash all these massive armies together in any way that is satisfying on a character level? I plan to read the books when they're all done, so I look forward to discovering his solution. :)

I have a feeling that if it was easy, it wouldn't have taken him eight years (and counting) to write a book (or books) wrapping it all up. The TV producers didn't have the luxury of saying "it'll be ready when it's ready".
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 17 May, 2019, 05:02:10 PM
I can't justify the expense - especially when you factor in what the entire series would cost - but holy shit this is just gorgeous:

https://www.foliosociety.com/usa/a-game-of-thrones.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIubW66Kuh4gIViP5kCh3FugwxEAAYASAAEgIdmvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds (https://www.foliosociety.com/usa/a-game-of-thrones.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIubW66Kuh4gIViP5kCh3FugwxEAAYASAAEgIdmvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 17 May, 2019, 05:19:48 PM
Well disclaimer, I haven't read the books, but GRRM's story will have exactly the same problems to solve as the TV show-runners, i.e. how to smash all these massive armies together in any way that is satisfying on a character level? I plan to read the books when they're all done, so I look forward to discovering his solution. :)

I have a feeling that if it was easy, it wouldn't have taken him eight years (and counting) to write a book (or books) wrapping it all up. The TV producers didn't have the luxury of saying "it'll be ready when it's ready".

I've probably mentioned this already but the delay has taken so long that I've had to go to my happy place of assuming that he'll never publish another GOT book.  He'll die or go senile or just never break through the writer's block.  (Man, my happy place is pretty depressing.)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Richard 17 May, 2019, 05:40:08 PM
We should kidnap him and re-enact the entire film Misery scene for scene.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 17 May, 2019, 05:52:05 PM
Well disclaimer, I haven't read the books, but GRRM's story will have exactly the same problems to solve as the TV show-runners, i.e. how to smash all these massive armies together in any way that is satisfying on a character level? I plan to read the books when they're all done, so I look forward to discovering his solution. :)

I have a feeling that if it was easy, it wouldn't have taken him eight years (and counting) to write a book (or books) wrapping it all up. The TV producers didn't have the luxury of saying "it'll be ready when it's ready".

I've probably mentioned this already but the delay has taken so long that I've had to go to my happy place of assuming that he'll never publish another GOT book.  He'll die or go senile or just never break through the writer's block.  (Man, my happy place is pretty depressing.)

Yeah. I'd say that there's a 50/50 chance we get Winds, but I'm going with the assumption that Dream will never see the light of day. Tbh with all of the dangling plot threads and sheer number of POV characters I seriously doubt two books would be enough to wrap it all up. My worry is that now the TV show has given away a lot of the ending he's lost his mojo.

I also heard a rumour that Winds was pretty much done and ready for publication a few years back, but that he wasn't happy with it so scrapped much of it and has been rewriting it ever since.

I guess a writer has to follow his muse, but I can't understand why he's wasting time on things like Fire & Blood. I'm a huge ASoIaF nerd, and even I couldn't get through that.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 17 May, 2019, 05:57:01 PM
Lost in his own world-building (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA6MQHNM2yE), perhaps?

As regards Misery crossed with GOT fans: [Half a million people surround the bed.] "We are all your biggest fans!"
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Richard 17 May, 2019, 06:39:18 PM
I'm a huge ASoIaF nerd,

It's probably just me, but I mis-read that as "I'm a huge ass nerd."
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 17 May, 2019, 06:53:25 PM
Can neither confirm nor deny
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 18 May, 2019, 12:17:39 AM
Well, I know I said I'd avoid this thread, but I've just watched episode 5 and i was on the edge of my seat (well, bed, anyway) start to finish.

I remember listening to a podcast about the air raids during WW2 and how the A-bomb attacks weren't that much worse than the standard bombings; which is to say they were utterly appalling no matter what was being dropped.  It took a fantasy series with a dragon attack to give me a visual image to fit the description.

My brother predicted that this was exactly what Daenerys would do, but it was no less shocking for that.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Dudley 18 May, 2019, 06:21:35 AM
So what does everyone reckon?  All the articles I've read seem to think that there either will be a definite winner of the GoT or that the whole system will be overthrown.  I'm beginning to wonder if there will be an ambiguous ending - Dany loses Drogon and we end with her troops facing Winterfell's alliance. They start to move towards each other and we fade to black...
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 18 May, 2019, 08:57:44 AM
An ambiguous, Watchmen ending would work for me. Jon killing Daenerys and being a sad king would be a bit predictable, but either way up I can't wait, and also feel a bit sad that such an epic show is nearly over.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Tiplodocus 18 May, 2019, 09:15:55 AM
So what does everyone reckon?  All the articles I've read seem to think that there either will be a definite winner of the GoT or that the whole system will be overthrown.  I'm beginning to wonder if there will be an ambiguous ending - Dany loses Drogon and we end with her troops facing Winterfell's alliance. They start to move towards each other and we fade to black...

I dunno. It would be a bit Sopranos. I assume that's pretty much how the final episode would start.

Maybe Dtogon eats Dany talks and says "About time I got MY  throne back. Anybody want to dispute me being rightful ruler? Anyone? Anyone?".

 Then Tyrion. Arya and Jon steal their Dad's sports car for the day...
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Tiplodocus 18 May, 2019, 09:18:59 AM
Regardless, criticism and postings will fall into three camps:

1) That was great and I will now show how I am as smart as the writers of the show and smarter than you.

2) That was shit and I will now show how I am smarter than you and the writers of the show.

3) Not enough tits and shagging.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: broodblik 18 May, 2019, 10:04:41 AM
This is one of those show does not matter how it ends, people will not unhappy with it. I will just go with what they give us.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 18 May, 2019, 10:54:58 AM
Regardless, criticism and postings will fall into three camps:

1) That was great and I will now show how I am as smart as the writers of the show and smarter than you.

2) That was shit and I will now show how I am smarter than you and the writers of the show.

3) Not enough tits and shagging.

Number  2 will be the main one, and also 4) I wanted something else to happen and therefore the writers are bad. 

I want them all to realise they're on a TV set,  then go out of it and announce their resignations to the director,, then all go and find jobs in offices and supermarkets.

Then there can be a 9th season, but it'll be more like Coronation Street. 
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Tiplodocus 18 May, 2019, 11:07:23 AM
Blazing Saddles ending! But with Dragons!
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Mikey 18 May, 2019, 11:16:36 AM
If it's not a show stopping, cane/sword twirling, thanks to the audience for coming, glitzy show biz song and dance number I'll be ragin. I mean, A Song of Ice and Fire - if they don't deliver said actual song they deserve to die as that's what I've been expecting.

I'd settle for a soft rock, sweeping-slo mo-landscape-shots-while-guitar-solo-plays number too, and I suppose they've the haircuts for it.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Dudley 18 May, 2019, 11:18:44 AM
I like the idea that you have been watching for 70+ hours of TV thinking "when's this fecking song going to start?"
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Hawkmumbler 18 May, 2019, 12:52:38 PM
Blazing Saddles ending! But with Dragons!
Cersei loves froggy. Froggy love Cersei?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 18 May, 2019, 04:09:17 PM
Something else just struck me: the people who say this is completely out of character for Daenerys haven't been paying attention.  Her potential ruthlessness and megalomania has been brewing for a long time.  Her father was a psychopath too.  I just can't see how people missed it.

Also, GoT continues to buck trends by making the most heroic characters fuck up massively.  Like Dredd in both Sin City and Day of Chaos, they've made a hames of it despite their best efforts and as a result caused thousands to die.  You didn't see that kind of thing on Lord of the Rings.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: broodblik 18 May, 2019, 04:12:48 PM
Something else just struck me: the people who say this is completely out of character for Daenerys haven't been paying attention.  Her potential ruthlessness and megalomania has been brewing for a long time.  Her father was a psychopath too.  I just can't see how people missed it.

Because we do not want to see this "pretty face" girl being the "baddie". We all shouted and routed for her in season 1. As you said this was already present in previous seasons
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 18 May, 2019, 04:52:05 PM

1) That was great and I will now show how I am as smart as the writers of the show and smarter than you.


Suddenly I hate myself.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Richard 18 May, 2019, 05:05:19 PM
Tyrion, Varys and Jon Snow had already talked her out of using the dragons on King's Landing on two previous occcassions in series 7, so it was hardly out of the question that they would need to do it a third time, and that they might fail.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Krakajac 20 May, 2019, 10:18:13 AM
Well, that was rather enjoyable. :)

The quality of TV these days is pretty damn good.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 20 May, 2019, 12:31:58 PM
I like the idea that you have been watching for 70+ hours of TV thinking "when's this fecking song going to start?"


...and I thought prog rock songs had long intros...
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Link Prime 20 May, 2019, 03:48:18 PM
A Song of Disappointment and Failure:

Part 1) Main Quest = Side Quest.
Part 2) Bitches be crazy, yo.
Part 3) Weird kid wins gold medal.

Fin.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: pauljholden 20 May, 2019, 05:00:10 PM
Well, I certainly wasn't expecting it all to turn out to be Bran's dying dream as he lay at the bottom of the tower from episode 1, but here we are. More audacious than Bobby Ewing in the shower, that's for sure.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 20 May, 2019, 05:00:55 PM
Part 1) Main Quest = Side Quest.

Or: there were two quests, which both got resolved.  (1: Walker threat. 2: Civil war threat.)

Part 2) Bitches be crazy, yo.

Except for Sansa, Arya, Brienne & Yara.

Part 3) Weird kid wins gold medal.

To resolve that pesky civil war threat.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Rusty 20 May, 2019, 06:53:08 PM
On the plus side, thank fuck that's over because it was like being gradually waterboarded episode by episode. We got a Scooby Doo mixed with a Return of the King and some Marvel sequel expanding hinting style ending. Who couldn't be happy with that?

Can't wait for all those spin offs now. The Adventures of Arya et al.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: broodblik 20 May, 2019, 07:16:07 PM
For me the ending was very satisfactory. This season had some issues but the end made up it all up for me.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 20 May, 2019, 09:18:20 PM
Something else just struck me: the people who say this is completely out of character for Daenerys haven't been paying attention.  Her potential ruthlessness and megalomania has been brewing for a long time.  Her father was a psychopath too.  I just can't see how people missed it.

Can you really not see how there's a fairly sizable logical jump to go from 'potential ruthlessness' to slaughtering hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children? Its the extreme level of her actions that people have taken issue with, apparently including the actor who plays the character. As for the Mad King, I guess my interpretation is that during his reign he had suffered a long, slow descent into paranoid schizophrenia and wasn't just 'genetically evil' because he was a Targaryen.


As for the finale, It was about as good as I could have hoped given how much I disliked the general direction of the season as a whole. It had some truly outstanding visuals (drogon emerging from the snow, Dany framed by the dragon wings) and it's nice that they at least acknowledged the existence of other houses like the Arryns, Tullys and Martells - one of my main complaints the last season or two is how empty the world has felt relative to the early seasons. I was almost certain we'd never get any more scenes featuring non Stark or Targaryen characters.

I found the first half hour completely devoid of tension given that there was never any doubt (to me, at least) as to which way Jon would go re: Dany. However Jon subsequently going into exile beyond the wall was a great ending for him - a neat inversion of the opening scene of the pilot - life going out into the cold vs death coming out of it. It felt logical, poetic and bittersweet in a way that a lot of the other resolutions didn't.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Leigh S 20 May, 2019, 09:40:45 PM
I liked most of that - most characters ended up in a satisying place even if the way they got there wasnt the greatest.  I really enjoyed the first half up to and including Jon/Drogon, though at that point you realise that there is a whole half a series at least that would be needed to untangle the dangling threads and it makes you miss the darn show with half an hour to go.  Was it just me who thought it was going to all go a bit racist, as the Westerosi characters surveyed the "evil barbarians" whooping and hollering the slaughter up and slitting those throats?  What I think would have worked much better would have been getting Grey Worm on side rather than against Jon.

I mean, glossing over Jon's presumably stupid confession. Say in the throne room Grey Worm is also there or turned up and witnessed the deed, and it was a confrontation between them where Jon convinces him to break the wheel  - it was Dany's obsession with the feeble little throne that got Missandei killed and she wants to go on and on?  Then you don't have to have the awkward scene where he just allows the murderer of his Queen to not only go free, but also the chap who told him to do it....


but after the time jump - oof - If they had ended it on the Council meeting they could have freeze framed as everyone guffawed over a brothel joke from Bron - oh the hilarity!  Thankfully the final shots of Jon off to the North were fitting...but just imagine if Jon had been the one to stop the final battle, to break the wheel - giving Jon a heoric speech and actually finally doing something right, and gave Grey Worm agency on all this, as opposed to him meekly accepting what a bunch of the same old tossers that Dany was there to remove wanted




: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Dudley 20 May, 2019, 09:59:52 PM
Most impressive moment of that episode: stabbing anyone with that ruddy great sword while kissing them. Jon is quite the acrobat.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 20 May, 2019, 10:03:04 PM
Most impressive moment of that episode: stabbing anyone with that ruddy great sword while kissing them. Jon is quite the acrobat.

It was a dagger. He gave his sword to the Unsullied.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Richard 20 May, 2019, 10:13:29 PM
(The Mad King) wasn't just 'genetically evil' because he was a Targaryen

"Every time a Targaryen is born, the world holds its breath and the gods toss a coin."
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Richard 20 May, 2019, 10:18:15 PM
First half of the episode was excellent and I wouldn't change anything.

Second half didn't make much sense. It's not plausible that the Dothraki and Unsullied would meekly accept the verdict of the Westerosi, especially the regicide's own family. It would have been better if Brandon had worked with the dragon and incinerated them all.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Leigh S 20 May, 2019, 10:29:58 PM
Bran could have warged with the dragon to burn up Danyraes - the perfect crime!  :D

Personally, having the dragon burn up all the foreigners to acheive the 'happy' ending may have pushed the show even further into UKIP territory...!


: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 20 May, 2019, 10:32:28 PM
(The Mad King) wasn't just 'genetically evil' because he was a Targaryen

"Every time a Targaryen is born, the world holds its breath and the gods toss a coin."

I get that, but I still think the execution was overly simplistic - as I said before it's like they just flipped a switch. I also think conceptually it's far more interesting having a character wrestle with these kind of impulses and their family legacy than just turn cartoonishly evil on a dime. We already have two other awful Targaryens (Viserys and Aerys) in the story to reflect the dark side of the Targaryen bloodline. Dany turning evil seemed too predictable to be predictable if that makes any sense (probably not :lol:)?

I dunno, it is what it is, but I'm even more rabidly curious to read Winds of Winter now to see what Martin does with Dany.

Second half didn't make much sense. It's not plausible that the Dothraki and Unsullied would meekly accept the verdict of the Westerosi, especially the regicide's own family.

There were so many nagging things like that that just have to be ignored, as we'll never get answers. How can a Stark be king of the realm given that his homeland just seceded from it? Why is there still a Night's Watch? Weren't the Ironborn promised sovereignty? How is Sam Grandmaester when he hasn't even completed his basic maester training? Etc etc.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Jim_Campbell 20 May, 2019, 11:49:55 PM
as I said before it's like they just flipped a switch.

Except for the part where she’d already had to be talked out of burning down King’s Landing twice, only on the third occasion all the people who’d previously dissuaded her were either dead or had betrayed her.

Look at what the path to the throne cost Dany by the time she looks down on that city: her husband, her unborn child, Daario whatsisface, Ser Baristan, Ser Jorah, two of her dragons. Variously betrayed by Varys, Tyrion and Jon. The secret groundswell of support she’d been told since a child that the rightful returning Targaryen would receive nowhere to be seen.

The people of Westeros could have overthrown Cersei like they overthrew the Mad King, but instead they stuck right with her until the end. They didn’t accept Danaerys, they surrendered because they were beaten, they surrendered because they were afraid.

It doesn’t seem like a leap to me that she would look down on that city, on those people, knowing that everything she’d sacrificed meant nothing to them but that fear drove them in the end, and that she might think: I’ll show you fear.

I don’t think that’s a leap at all.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Tiplodocus 21 May, 2019, 12:03:42 AM
I enjoyed that. Several niggles, and some large complaints,  but got to a good place for most characters. I personally am glad that there wasn't some big OTT action set piece or another battle to finish it all

They didn't play up Jon's actually bloodline; I imagine a lot of people thinking that was a wasted twist. But it was enough for me that it added weight to his "I am not worthy of the throne and don't want it" speeches. Well, actually mate, you are. And he finally got something right. So I guess that was wildly out of character.

You feckers should think yourself lucky you weren't around trying to make the most of the LOST finale.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Tiplodocus 21 May, 2019, 12:16:46 AM
It's not plausible that the Dothraki and Unsullied would meekly accept the verdict of the Westerosi, especially the regicide's own family.

I dunno. You had a massively symbolic scene of Drogonbeing massively upset, sniffing out the murder weapon and murderer and screaming "Noooooo!" While shooting his gun into the air and destroying the very thing that caused all of the hassle and ushering a new dawn where such things don't have the same importance and that wasn't enough? Do we really need scenes full of basil where every injured party explains exactly what they are feeling and why they are behaving in a certain way? It was a brilliant but of "show, don't tell" and fantastically executed.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: hippynumber1 21 May, 2019, 06:32:02 AM
I’ve already had to endure an “it’s not fair, the fans deserved better” conversation with someone at work. 🙄
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: pauljholden 21 May, 2019, 08:06:58 AM
I think dany’s Always been mad. From walking out of the fire with the hatched dragons and claiming they’re her babies (surely that’s bonkers?) to the murder of the mad witch woman who betrayed her khal, she’s always been utterly ruthless too. It’s always been clear that. She’s been driven by this one goal and it’s hard to say what someone that single minded will do when they achieve that goal. And then there’s the systematic stripping away of her support network - whose left to say she’s gone too far?

as far as Jon snow being a targearean, I actually think this is enormously important for dany’s motivations too - again Dany knows one thing: she’s entitled to sit on the iron throne and to suddenly find out the person she’s been sleeping with is her nephew (bad!) who’s Technically next in line to the throne (worse!) puts her in a place where she really is on her own.

Anyway, I enjoyed it. I have niggles, but to get a beast like this into port with only a few knocks is pretty impressive.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: wedgeski 21 May, 2019, 08:27:06 AM
Very happy with the last episode, given how uneven the rest of the season has been. Time to put the whole thing to bed ahead of a full re-watch next year.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 21 May, 2019, 11:08:29 AM
Second half didn't make much sense. It's not plausible that the Dothraki and Unsullied would meekly accept the verdict of the Westerosi, especially the regicide's own family.

There were so many nagging things like that that just have to be ignored, as we'll never get answers. How can a Stark be king of the realm given that his homeland just seceded from it? Why is there still a Night's Watch? Weren't the Ironborn promised sovereignty? How is Sam Grandmaester when he hasn't even completed his basic maester training? Etc etc.


Well, they may or may not get a more full explanation at a later date, depending on which events happen in the books.  How many times have you watched a film which only completely made sense if you'd already read the book, due to small details cut out in the final edit but which had been filmed (if they'd got that far from the source material).


Completely agree with every point raised above - the Ironborn one was the only one that didn't occur to me while watching.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 21 May, 2019, 11:09:12 AM
They didn't play up Jon's actually bloodline; I imagine a lot of people thinking that was a wasted twist.


It seems that only unworthy Targaryens get to sit on the Iron Throne - the rest go to the wall!
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Hawkmumbler 21 May, 2019, 11:29:23 AM
S7 Bran: "I can't be the lord of anything anymore'

S8 Bran: 'Is offered the crown' "WhY DiD YOu thInk I CAMe All THiS WaY?

Biggest heel turn for me, everything else was acceptable but Bran for king? A bad conclusion to my least favorite story arc.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Dudley 21 May, 2019, 11:41:31 AM

It was a dagger. He gave his sword to the Unsullied.

I'm tremendously sorry, you are correct.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Jim_Campbell 21 May, 2019, 12:21:41 PM
Nice that the character with a historic penchant for red-headed wildlings got to ride off into the not-quite-sunset with one. :-)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 21 May, 2019, 12:39:20 PM
Nice that the character with a historic penchant for red-headed wildlings got to ride off into the not-quite-sunset with one. :-)

:-D  Shame the red-headed wildling in question didn't end up with somebody a little taller though!
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Tiplodocus 21 May, 2019, 12:44:47 PM
S7 Bran: "I can't be the lord of anything anymore'

S8 Bran: 'Is offered the crown' "WhY DiD YOu thInk I CAMe All THiS WaY?

Biggest heel turn for me, everything else was acceptable but Bran for king? A bad conclusion to my least favorite story arc.

Ah, so Bran was playing the Long Game. Clever chap.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Hawkmumbler 21 May, 2019, 12:46:44 PM
S7 Bran: "I can't be the lord of anything anymore'

S8 Bran: 'Is offered the crown' "WhY DiD YOu thInk I CAMe All THiS WaY?

Biggest heel turn for me, everything else was acceptable but Bran for king? A bad conclusion to my least favorite story arc.

Ah, so Bran was playing the Long Game. Clever chap.

Did think of that, but it entirely undermines the simultaneously nebulous yet painfully vague Three Eyed Raven aspect. Also if you can't be a lord you presumably can't be something that requires being a lord by default. Nah. It's was just naff.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Richard 21 May, 2019, 01:36:04 PM
Do we really need scenes full of basil where every injured party explains exactly what they are feeling and why they are behaving in a certain way?

I wasn't thinking in terms of showing everyone's feelings about what happened, but rather showing Grey Worm and his colleagues reacting in a believable manner.

We are supposed to accept that the winners of a war will ask the people they have conquered for permission to execute their queen's assassin, including the assassin's adopted family. Then when the result is a lenient sentence, "go and live up north with people you might well have voluntarily gone to live with anyway," Grey Worm just goes along with that even though in the same episode we saw him killing prisoners who hadn't committed any crime at all except being on the losing side. It's completely out of character for him, for the rest of the Unsullied and for the Dothraki. And I don't think they would have cared about the Northerners, because as we saw in season 7 the Westerosi soldiers can't stand up to them, dragon or no dragon.

A moment's thought would have led the writers to a more believable resolution to that problem.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Jim_Campbell 21 May, 2019, 01:40:30 PM
I’ve already had to endure an “it’s not fair, the fans deserved better” conversation with someone at work. 🙄

Most baffling reaction today was one of my FB friends going on at some length about 'betrayal' and citing fairy tales as if they were some kind of legal precedent. Seriously? You were expecting a fairy tale ending?! What fuckin' show have you been watching for the last eight years?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Theblazeuk 21 May, 2019, 01:41:50 PM
A little breathing room and Darth Targaryen wouldn't have felt such a rush. Maybe one other atrocity with a slightly less-clearly-evil motivation thrown in there (like burning the Red Keep filled with innocents as continuously signposted by the show, rather than just burning *everything*) to show a slippery slope, rather than a cliffside.

But overall I enjoyed it, thought it was the best episode of the season, and just happy it's over. Daft as somethings are based off previous episodes (as mentioned), and as broken as some scenes and events were, ultimately the end resolution is OK with me.

Funnily enough the day before I watched it, I listened to a podcast where someone said:
Bran's a grifter. My boy just got tired of being pushed around, he's had a shitty life so he came up with a story that'll get all these idiots to do what he wants. "Oh yeah I'm the three-eyed raven. Everyone protect me, that's what's needed". Then Lo and Behold, what happens!
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: broodblik 21 May, 2019, 02:03:19 PM
Do we really need scenes full of basil where every injured party explains exactly what they are feeling and why they are behaving in a certain way?

I wasn't thinking in terms of showing everyone's feelings about what happened, but rather showing Grey Worm and his colleagues reacting in a believable manner.

We are supposed to accept that the winners of a war will ask the people they have conquered for permission to execute their queen's assassin, including the assassin's adopted family. Then when the result is a lenient sentence, "go and live up north with people you might well have voluntarily gone to live with anyway," Grey Worm just goes along with that even though in the same episode we saw him killing prisoners who hadn't committed any crime at all except being on the losing side. It's completely out of character for him, for the rest of the Unsullied and for the Dothraki. And I don't think they would have cared about the Northerners, because as we saw in season 7 the Westerosi soldiers can't stand up to them, dragon or no dragon.

A moment's thought would have led the writers to a more believable resolution to that problem.

This I agree on, I think a good resolution would have been that Bran took control of the Dragon (but the council whom selected him must not be aware of this) and then  use the Dragon too nullify or pacifiy with fear the Unsullied and Dothraki.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 21 May, 2019, 02:09:13 PM
I’ve already had to endure an “it’s not fair, the fans deserved better” conversation with someone at work. 🙄

Most baffling reaction today was one of my FB friends going on at some length about 'betrayal' and citing fairy tales as if they were some kind of legal precedent. Seriously? You were expecting a fairy tale ending?! What ' show have you been watching for the last eight years?


#notBeenPayingAttention
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Steven Denton 21 May, 2019, 06:16:52 PM
Do we really need scenes full of basil where every injured party explains exactly what they are feeling and why they are behaving in a certain way?

I wasn't thinking in terms of showing everyone's feelings about what happened, but rather showing Grey Worm and his colleagues reacting in a believable manner.

We are supposed to accept that the winners of a war will ask the people they have conquered for permission to execute their queen's assassin, including the assassin's adopted family. Then when the result is a lenient sentence, "go and live up north with people you might well have voluntarily gone to live with anyway," Grey Worm just goes along with that even though in the same episode we saw him killing prisoners who hadn't committed any crime at all except being on the losing side. It's completely out of character for him, for the rest of the Unsullied and for the Dothraki. And I don't think they would have cared about the Northerners, because as we saw in season 7 the Westerosi soldiers can't stand up to them, dragon or no dragon.

A moment's thought would have led the writers to a more believable resolution to that problem.

I am still unsure as to how there are any Dothraki left after they were all killed in episode 3 but that is by the by,

Grey Worm was raised a slave, conditioned into obedience and order following as well as the suppression of pain and emotional attachment. He doesn't execute John or Tiryan because there is no one to order him to do so. He's very receptive to the idea of a new leader when the idea is proposed and he grudgingly follows orders once a leader has been chosen because that's what he has been programmed from birth to do. I think it's entirely consistent with his character.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 21 May, 2019, 06:23:31 PM
I am still unsure as to how there are any Dothraki left after they were all killed in episode 3

I know what you mean.  There's quite a bit this season where the viewer has to fill in the gaps.  So, as we saw Jorah Mormont returning from the fateful Dothraki charge into the zombie army, we have to imagine that either a bunch of Dothraki had been held in reserve (although: why?) or that approximately half of them rode back with Jorah but we never saw them.  Or that some of them weren't in the north at all.

Sometimes you would see Zany Dany with just a couple of Dothraki, and it would paint a picture of there just being two of them left in the whole of Westeros.  Then, when they needed them, suddenly it was HORDE!
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Mikey 21 May, 2019, 08:06:53 PM
Anyway, I enjoyed it. I have niggles, but to get a beast like this into port with only a few knocks is pretty impressive.

Nice way to put it. It was a good ending and the first part provided some iconic scenes and it was refreshing they didn't end on that one or a final boss battle, giving just a bit of how things will be from now on. Much as I wonder what the point in Bran was really, it all makes sense so that's fine by me.

I'd bet each way on the Speculation Horse, so Sansa did indeed become queen of an independent North, but I thought she would maybe be one of seven.

It's been great TV over the years and I'm looking forward to rewatching it on occasion. I'm kinda proud Norn Iron has been a key part of it, with local comic droid done good Will Simpson storyboarding and designing it like a good 'un - it made our landscapes look as epic as I feel they are and it's testament to the show I only got a little distracted by locations I'm very familiar with, both from work and leisure. We have fantastic geology, what can I say?

The Sopranos is still my benchmark however and it didn't quite hit that high. Not especially sold on the idea of spin offs but we'll see what they come up with.

Valar marghulis.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Leigh S 21 May, 2019, 10:27:33 PM
I guess thats a way of reading it, but I'm not sure that isnt a bad look for a show that has already drawn criticism of it's handling of ethnicity.  Grey Worm has had an arc, but to have him stripped of any agency in how this plays out is to side line any growth and empowerment he has shown and leave it to the white people make the decisions for him... it doesnt play well for me, however you frame it.  Having Grey Worm as the final breaker of the wheel would be a fitting end and mean the big decisions werent all in the hands of the caucasian cast.  Also I assume they went this way partly to justify Jon Snow not ascending to the throne, but how much better would it have been if he had outright refused it and said he was going beyond the wall where he would never be found - So in the final episode he would have finally grasped three nettles - killing Dany, saving the Realm from a final bloody conflict (in conjunction with Grey Worm,nnow Commander of the Forces, so the only two men in a position to do this) AND removing himself from the wheel.

also watching it again with my wife tonight and they should have given Bran a cat to stroke - full on moustache twirling EVIL VILLAIN mode.  "I have been playing this game to win from the VERY BEGINNING MWAH HAH HAH HA!"


Do we really need scenes full of basil where every injured party explains exactly what they are feeling and why they are behaving in a certain way?

I wasn't thinking in terms of showing everyone's feelings about what happened, but rather showing Grey Worm and his colleagues reacting in a believable manner.

We are supposed to accept that the winners of a war will ask the people they have conquered for permission to execute their queen's assassin, including the assassin's adopted family. Then when the result is a lenient sentence, "go and live up north with people you might well have voluntarily gone to live with anyway," Grey Worm just goes along with that even though in the same episode we saw him killing prisoners who hadn't committed any crime at all except being on the losing side. It's completely out of character for him, for the rest of the Unsullied and for the Dothraki. And I don't think they would have cared about the Northerners, because as we saw in season 7 the Westerosi soldiers can't stand up to them, dragon or no dragon.

A moment's thought would have led the writers to a more believable resolution to that problem.

I am still unsure as to how there are any Dothraki left after they were all killed in episode 3 but that is by the by,

Grey Worm was raised a slave, conditioned into obedience and order following as well as the suppression of pain and emotional attachment. He doesn't execute John or Tiryan because there is no one to order him to do so. He's very receptive to the idea of a new leader when the idea is proposed and he grudgingly follows orders once a leader has been chosen because that's what he has been programmed from birth to do. I think it's entirely consistent with his character.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JOE SOAP 22 May, 2019, 01:04:59 AM
and some Marvel sequel expanding hinting style ending. Who couldn't be happy with that?

Can't wait for all those spin offs now. The Adventures of Arya et al.


Maybe it's a symptom of modern viewing but I've never interpreted the many stories that conclude with characters splitting-up/moving-on from their past and homeland to mean 'MCU style spin-off'. It's a legitimate resolution for a young assassin who's simply outgrown where she's from.

Besides, that spin-off isn't apparently planned.

The three successor shows are all prequels. In the finale, Arya goes on to explore what's west of Westeros. Have you considered exploring sequels? Specifically, Arya Stark as she travels west of Westeros?

Nope, nope, nope. No. Part of it is, I do want this show — this Game of Thrones, Dan and David's show — to be its own thing. I don't want to take characters from this world that they did beautifully and put them off into another world with someone else creating it. I want to let it be the artistic piece they've got. That's one of reasons why I'm not trying to do the same show over. George has massive, massive world; there are so many ways in. That's why we're trying to do things that feel distinct — and to not try and re-do the same show. That's probably one of the reasons why, right now, a sequel or picking up any of the other characters doesn't make sense for us.


https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-sequel-is-not-an-option-hbo-series-finale-1212749?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=THR%20Breaking%20News_now_2019-05-21%2015:01:45_lgoldberg&utm_term=hollywoodreporter_breakingnews
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Richard 22 May, 2019, 01:17:48 AM
Some very good points have been made on this thread.

As far as sequels are concerned, I love Arya Stark but I don't need to see a sequel about what she does next, I think her story ended in the right place. Best to leave whatever happened next to the viewers' imagination. I'm far more interested in a prequel.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Dudley 22 May, 2019, 06:25:06 AM
Arya: Young girl - brought up in privilege - suffered a terrible tragedy when young - exiled - obsessed with revenge - gains magical powers that make her virtually unkillable - shown to be ruthless in dealing with those who get in her way - often slightly isolated and comes across as cold to all but her closest inner circle - certain of her own righteousness.

Daenerys: Young girl - brought up in privilege - suffered a terrible tragedy when young - exiled - obsessed with revenge - gains magical powers that make her virtually unkillable - shown to be ruthless in dealing with those who get in her way - often slightly isolated and comes across as cold to all but her closest inner circle - certain of her own righteousness.

I'm not sure this narrative ends well for the peoples west of Westeros, that's all I'm saying.

: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: IndigoPrime 22 May, 2019, 07:21:36 AM
Well, if it’s true to the books, no-one’s ever found anything west of Westeros anyway, so she’ll either turn back, starve or drown.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Steven Denton 22 May, 2019, 08:49:25 AM
I guess thats a way of reading it, but I'm not sure that isnt a bad look for a show that has already drawn criticism of it's handling of ethnicity.  Grey Worm has had an arc, but to have him stripped of any agency in how this plays out is to side line any growth and empowerment he has shown and leave it to the white people make the decisions for him... it doesnt play well for me, however you frame it.  Having Grey Worm as the final breaker of the wheel would be a fitting end and mean the big decisions werent all in the hands of the caucasian cast.  Also I assume they went this way partly to justify Jon Snow not ascending to the throne, but how much better would it have been if he had outright refused it and said he was going beyond the wall where he would never be found - So in the final episode he would have finally grasped three nettles - killing Dany, saving the Realm from a final bloody conflict (in conjunction with Grey Worm,nnow Commander of the Forces, so the only two men in a position to do this) AND removing himself from the wheel.


Grey Worm would be a psychological mess. GoT world has no psychotherapy, he has pretty much put any personal growth he has had in the hands of two women, which isn't a bad thing, but now they are both dead. The fact he doesn't take bloody revenge on john despite the fact he was perfectly happy to kill on Danys orders could be read as him NOT being the freed slave bogie man white supremacists like to push. Hi Agency has only ever been choosing who to follow and being aloud a girlfriend. The show is guilty of that, it's guilty of being bad with people of colour but that doesn't mean his decisions are out of character, or even that he's a bad character.  it does call into question weather he was the right choice of character for the only prominent male person of colour in the show.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 22 May, 2019, 09:02:06 AM
Well, if it’s true to the books, no-one’s ever found anything west of Westeros anyway, so she’ll either turn back, starve or drown.


Or end up meeting Drogon (last seen flying East) on the other side of the world.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Keef Monkey 22 May, 2019, 09:26:42 AM
Grey Worm was raised a slave, conditioned into obedience and order following as well as the suppression of pain and emotional attachment. He doesn't execute John or Tiryan because there is no one to order him to do so. He's very receptive to the idea of a new leader when the idea is proposed and he grudgingly follows orders once a leader has been chosen because that's what he has been programmed from birth to do. I think it's entirely consistent with his character.

Grey Worm keeping John prisoner instead of killing him (and being willing to negotiate) was the one thing that felt really odd to me, and I'm glad you posted your take on it because it really does make sense when looked at from that perspective.

I loved the episode, but then I haven't had the same complaints a lot of people have with the season as a whole. Things didn't wrap up the way I wanted or expected in a lot of ways, but they did all wrap up in a way that felt very right. The music throughout the season has been incredible, the sense of coming to the end of an epic journey worked on a level that's incredibly rare in TV and I honestly can't fault where the story went or how the pieces all landed in the end.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 22 May, 2019, 05:04:02 PM
It doesn’t seem like a leap to me that she would look down on that city, on those people, knowing that everything she’d sacrificed meant nothing to them but that fear drove them in the end, and that she might think: I’ll show you fear.

We'll have to agree to disagree - personally I think they easily could have shown Dany going 'too far' without having her systematically wipe out the entire civilian population of the city. It seemed so over the top to me that her justification this episode (that it was about 'freeing people') was totally nonsensical, as was Jon's 'dilemna'. That they seriously try to suggest that Jon is in any way torn about his allegiance to her given what she just did is laughable, and that robs this episode of tension or surprise.

#notBeenPayingAttention

Worth pointing out that this line of dialogue (spoken by Ramsey Bolton, IIRC) only appears in the TV show, and to me is emblematic of the  fundamental difference in philosophy and worldview between the show and books. To me the books are all about people struggling to do the right thing in a harsh world, whereas the TV show has much more of a nihilistic 'dog eat dog' mentality, and has long conflated honour with stupidity, something the books resolutely do not do.

I'm still very much convinced that the ending to the books will be far more hopeful and far less bleak.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Keef Monkey 22 May, 2019, 05:19:27 PM
I'm still very much convinced that the ending to the books will be far more hopeful and far less bleak.

I really didn't see it as a bleak ending to be honest, bittersweet maybe given the toll that had to paid to get things to where they wound up. I thought it finished on a surprisingly optimistic note, with a new healthier status quo established and the characters all finding more positive roles and looking to a brighter future.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Leigh S 22 May, 2019, 05:28:16 PM
I am glad she did wipe out the city, as I like the idea she completes the Mad King's plans - it's how we get there.  There are two ways they could have alleviated the jarring nature for me.

Make it about more than her finding out about Jon Snow and his rejection of her - you could argue it was also about her advisors all trying to throw their lot in behind Snow, but she doesnt turn on Jon, so how much can we hold that as a deciding factor in her rampaging? She seems content that she is going to go on unchallenged after the burning without the need to take Jon out of the picture. 

More so than that, it was the fact that Dany burns the City AFTER it has surrendered - have the battle turn against her - give Cersei some cunning plan ("Aieeee!  Elephants!" :) ) so that the only weapon to turn the day was Drogon demoralising the forces through sheer terror.

It's telling that this is not spoken of when Jon confronts her - "Cersei was using the children" says Dany - how the fuck was she using the children? She had won.  Now, if we are to say it was because she knew Jon Snow would have more legitimacy/ support, then she would have to turn on Jon before anyone.

I can see the psychological approach to Grey Worm, Steve, I just dont like what it does for the character or dramatically for the fizzle out "non-threat" of Jon and Tyrion being prisoners. If they ahd let the Unsullied sail out with Jon Snow's head on a spike, Ned style, that might have worked....

They should have called this episode "How Tyrion Fixed Things (despite being a prisoner the whole time)"


It doesn’t seem like a leap to me that she would look down on that city, on those people, knowing that everything she’d sacrificed meant nothing to them but that fear drove them in the end, and that she might think: I’ll show you fear.

We'll have to agree to disagree - personally I think they easily could have shown Dany going 'too far' without having her systematically wipe out the entire civilian population of the city. It seemed so over the top to me that her justification this episode (that it was about 'freeing people') was totally nonsensical, as was Jon's 'dilemna'. That they seriously try to suggest that Jon is in any way torn about his allegiance to her given what she just did is laughable, and that robs this episode of tension or surprise.

#notBeenPayingAttention

Worth pointing out that this line of dialogue (spoken by Ramsey Bolton, IIRC) only appears in the TV show, and to me is emblematic of the  fundamental difference in philosophy and worldview between the show and books. To me the books are all about people struggling to do the right thing in a harsh world, whereas the TV show has much more of a nihilistic 'dog eat dog' mentality, and has long conflated honour with stupidity, something the books resolutely do not do.

I'm still very much convinced that the ending to the books will be far more hopeful and far less bleak.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 22 May, 2019, 05:41:49 PM
her justification this episode (that it was about 'freeing people') was totally nonsensical

I can get behind the idea that her descent into madness was too abrupt: clearly, that's what a lot of viewers felt.  I think that her idea that murdering civilians is "freeing people" is a great way of demonstrating that she is mad (however she got there).  It's that very twisted reasoning that allows Jon the motivation to execute her.

: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Tjm86 22 May, 2019, 05:46:46 PM
It doesn’t seem like a leap to me that she would look down on that city, on those people, knowing that everything she’d sacrificed meant nothing to them but that fear drove them in the end, and that she might think: I’ll show you fear.

We'll have to agree to disagree - personally I think they easily could have shown Dany going 'too far' without having her systematically wipe out the entire civilian population of the city. It seemed so over the top to me that her justification this episode (that it was about 'freeing people') was totally nonsensical, as was Jon's 'dilemma'.

TBH my issue with this when I finally saw it was not so much about her going completely postal as that it just happened.  There seemed to be no justification for it.  One minute she was looking on, listening to the bells, the next she was burning down the house.  They'd given up, thrown in with her and declared Cersei the loser.  She could have just taken out the Red Keep and been done with Cersei.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 22 May, 2019, 05:57:23 PM
I think that her idea that murdering civilians is "freeing people" is a great way of demonstrating that she is mad

Is she, though? It isn't fully clear that thats what they were going for. I've seen interviews where people involved with the show push back on the 'mad' thing and make out that her actions were calculated and strategic. Neither interpretation makes complete sense to me.

I'm still very much convinced that the ending to the books will be far more hopeful and far less bleak.

I really didn't see it as a bleak ending to be honest, bittersweet maybe given the toll that had to paid to get things to where they wound up. I thought it finished on a surprisingly optimistic note, with a new healthier status quo established and the characters all finding more positive roles and looking to a brighter future.

Each to their own. Personally I found it quite jarring that we go from surveying the wreckage of Hiroshima to lightheartedly joking about brothels so quickly. I think the ending overall was very cynical and bleak, given the context,  though as I mentioned before I did like where Jon's story ended up.

More so than that, it was the fact that Dany burns the City AFTER it has surrendered

That's kind of what I'm getting at - I think the broad strokes of the ending will be similar to what happens in the books, but I think the chronological order of them, the context, the intent and motivation behind them will be very different indeed.

Anyway, I rewatched the episode last night (my girlfriend was away over the weekend so missed it) and I liked it a bit more than I did initially. While I have a lot of gripes with the writing, I can't praise the art direction,  effects, costuming and the music enough. It really is a momentous achievement in that regard.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JOE SOAP 22 May, 2019, 07:51:31 PM
Each to their own. Personally I found it quite jarring that we go from surveying the wreckage of Hiroshima to lightheartedly joking about brothels so quickly. I think the ending overall was very cynical and bleak, given the context,  though as I mentioned before I did like where Jon's story ended up.


It was the most human response: We still have to get on with the mundanity of running this place, feeding and wiping people's arses, but let's still have a sense of humour amongst ourselves. If anything it underlined what the show has been saying all along, that monarchies/statecraft is for mugs and you'll probably end up getting the shit-end of the stick, and then the shaft.

I find it hard not to be amused at the Iron Throne being replaced by a wooden wheel-chair: Bran the cripple leaves the heavy lifting of running Knots Landing to Tyrion the dwarf –a role he'd probably never be elected for– which I suppose is positive progression of some sort.

Jon and Arya seemed to get the best deal out of everyone. They at least looked happy.


: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 22 May, 2019, 10:04:56 PM
Just watched the last episode (and only flicked through this thread).  The Jon / Daenerys thing ended just like my brother predicted a few weeks ago (Daenerys goes mental with the dragon and Jon kills her) but I didn't see the King Bran thing coming.  Makes a whole lot of sense now I think of it; he's the wisest man in the world.  Bit of a shame to see democracy being ridiculed by all, but that would have been all too pat and contrived.

Also, finishing with Arya setting out for America or whatever was a beautiful ending.  Ever since I read that medieval people knew the world was round and speculated about what was to the west, I've been fascinated. 

The whole thing reminded me of the last ever Nikolai Dante.  A new era has begun and our heroes will continue to have huge adventures, but we won't get to see them.  Nor should we.

Splundig vur thrigg, Game of Thrones. I'll miss you.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Frank 22 May, 2019, 10:29:00 PM
Bit of a shame to see democracy being ridiculed by all

Western democracies are currently taking the piss out of the idea that everyone should decide what's best for everyone. I liked it fine. Wrapped up like every US show ever, vindicating David Chase's decision to just do a regular episode that smash-cut to black.

The smartest long-term fans seem to agree that none of the decisions made were wrong per se, but that the shorter season length meant everything felt rushed. Being used to UK TV drama, where 7 episodes would represent an extra 60 minutes for the writer to indulge themselves, I thought it was fine.

Maybe regular viewers got over this years ago, but The Dink's dinner theatre Shakespeare delivery is worse than the 'British' accents on Frasier (https://youtu.be/ur4SReYTnhQ). *


* Dinklage is great, though
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Dudley 23 May, 2019, 07:05:10 AM
Why is there still a Night's Watch?

Same reason there was a Night's Watch prior to the events of GoT - you need guards against wildling raids and it's somewhere to stick unwanted scions of Great Houses.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 23 May, 2019, 08:57:20 AM
Why is there still a Night's Watch?

Same reason there was a Night's Watch prior to the events of GoT - you need guards against wildling raids and it's somewhere to stick unwanted scions of Great Houses.


Why would there be wildling raids?  The Gift is theirs if they want it.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 23 May, 2019, 09:00:49 AM
Each to their own. Personally I found it quite jarring that we go from surveying the wreckage of Hiroshima to lightheartedly joking about brothels so quickly.

It was the most human response: We still have to get on with the mundanity of running this place, feeding and wiping people's arses, but let's still have a sense of humour amongst ourselves.


There's also a very well established narrative thread to follow up the grimmest part of a story with something to lighten the mood - look to murders in Shakespearean plays proceeded by a humorous scene or character.  Almost certainly goes back to the birth of narrative works in Greece (that we know of) and Mesopotamia (which are a bit more fragmented), so nothing at all jarring about a recent TV programme doing it.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Dudley 23 May, 2019, 10:33:16 AM
Why is there still a Night's Watch?

Same reason there was a Night's Watch prior to the events of GoT - you need guards against wildling raids and it's somewhere to stick unwanted scions of Great Houses.


Why would there be wildling raids?  The Gift is theirs if they want it.

There are many factions of wildlings, not all of whom are going to meekly obey Jon Snow. Raids will happen again.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Mister Pops 23 May, 2019, 11:19:23 AM
Why is there still a Night's Watch?

Same reason there was a Night's Watch prior to the events of GoT - you need guards against wildling raids and it's somewhere to stick unwanted scions of Great Houses.


Why would there be wildling raids?  The Gift is theirs if they want it.

There are many factions of wildlings, not all of whom are going to meekly obey Jon Snow. Raids will happen again.

Don't forget all the Grumpkins and Snarks
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Dudley 23 May, 2019, 01:21:46 PM
Why is there still a Night's Watch?

Same reason there was a Night's Watch prior to the events of GoT - you need guards against wildling raids and it's somewhere to stick unwanted scions of Great Houses.


Why would there be wildling raids?  The Gift is theirs if they want it.

There are many factions of wildlings, not all of whom are going to meekly obey Jon Snow. Raids will happen again.

Don't forget all the Grumpkins and Snarks

How could we?  They've all come out in the open to comment on Season 8.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Richard 23 May, 2019, 01:26:39 PM
Ha ha ha!
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 23 May, 2019, 03:50:53 PM

Maybe regular viewers got over this years ago, but The Dink's dinner theatre Shakespeare delivery is worse than the 'British' accents on Frasier (https://youtu.be/ur4SReYTnhQ). *


* Dinklage is great, though

He isn't totally spot on with the accent, sure, but the guy is an incredible actor with planet-sized charisma.  He's probably done more to increase respect for dwarfs than anyone, ever.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Jim_Campbell 23 May, 2019, 03:59:09 PM
He isn't totally spot on with the accent, sure, but the guy is an incredible actor with planet-sized charisma.  He's probably done more to increase respect for dwarfs than anyone, ever.

Keep an eye open for The Dink in Netflix's adaptation of The Last Sons of America (https://deadline.com/2019/02/netflix-peter-dinklage-last-sons-america-matt-reeves-boom-studios-1202552568/), based on a rather good comic what I lettered.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Steven Denton 23 May, 2019, 05:20:20 PM


I can see the psychological approach to Grey Worm, Steve, I just dont like what it does for the character or dramatically for the fizzle out "non-threat" of Jon and Tyrion being prisoners. If they ahd let the Unsullied sail out with Jon Snow's head on a spike, Ned style, that might have worked....


If the Grey Worm had killed John Snow he would in turn have been killed. he would be sailing no where. In the sense that cutting off a leader from the norths head would guarantee war executing him would indeed echo Ned Stark.

The Dothraki would fall apart as fighting force as they are tribes that were held together by the mother of dragons. the unsullied would stick with Grey Worm, but they are occupying a destroyed city, with no supplies, surrounded by a hostile continent and a army, with no chance of reinforcements. in short they would be screwed. Their best outcome if they were to kill John Snow would be for Grey Worm to die whist doing it. None of which improves things. the fact he walks back from being a monster and negotiates is the most positive outcome the character could hope for whist making any sense at all.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 23 May, 2019, 06:13:33 PM
He isn't totally spot on with the accent, sure, but the guy is an incredible actor with planet-sized charisma.  He's probably done more to increase respect for dwarfs than anyone, ever.

Keep an eye open for The Dink in Netflix's adaptation of The Last Sons of America (https://deadline.com/2019/02/netflix-peter-dinklage-last-sons-america-matt-reeves-boom-studios-1202552568/), based on a rather good comic what I lettered.

Fair play, Jim. Must get the comic too. 
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Robin Low 23 May, 2019, 06:29:17 PM
Each to their own. Personally I found it quite jarring that we go from surveying the wreckage of Hiroshima to lightheartedly joking about brothels so quickly. I think the ending overall was very cynical and bleak, given the context,  though as I mentioned before I did like where Jon's story ended up.


It was the most human response: We still have to get on with the mundanity of running this place, feeding and wiping people's arses, but let's still have a sense of humour amongst ourselves.

I thought there was also something in his tone that suggested it was more a comment on the past, rather than purely a joke. It was something he did before the world became so much less funny, before he had responsibilities to anyone other than himself.

Regards,

Robin
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 23 May, 2019, 06:34:46 PM
Each to their own. Personally I found it quite jarring that we go from surveying the wreckage of Hiroshima to lightheartedly joking about brothels so quickly. I think the ending overall was very cynical and bleak, given the context,  though as I mentioned before I did like where Jon's story ended up.


It was the most human response: We still have to get on with the mundanity of running this place, feeding and wiping people's arses, but let's still have a sense of humour amongst ourselves.

I thought there was also something in his tone that suggested it was more a comment on the past, rather than purely a joke. It was something he did before the world became so much less funny, before he had responsibilities to anyone other than himself.

Regards,

Robin

It wasn't simply the joke itself, more the overall tone of the second half. The lighter tone just seemed a little hard to swallow given that these people are dealing with the biggest massacre in the history of their world. Even Aegon's conquest pales in comparison to what Dany did. Just seemed a bit odd to me that they had a few scenes of the aftermath, then it's back to business as usual. Another knock on effect of the rushed pacing I suppose.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 23 May, 2019, 07:07:04 PM
A bit of light-hearted relief after all the misery and political tension, was the way I saw it. Worked for me.

I didn't mind the fast pace so much; it's what happens when cold wars heat up.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 23 May, 2019, 08:22:57 PM
Also just realised that Ser Davos's correction of Bron's grammar was a lovely little touch. He only learned to read recently, and the little girl who taught him was yet another innocent victim.

I may be misremembering, but did someone once correct Davos himself on the same double-negative error?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 23 May, 2019, 08:40:37 PM
Excuse the triple post, but I did indeed misremember: I was thinking of this.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.buzzfeednews.com/amphtml/meganp25/game-of-thrones-finale-davos-grammar

He got it from his old boss.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Richard 23 May, 2019, 11:13:56 PM
That Small Council meeting wasn't the next day after the massacre. I felt that more time had passed, and the initial shock and grief had worn off a bit.

Turning back to Steve Denton's argument about Grey Worm's actions, that is logical if we assume that Grey Worm's priority is to live. But the Unsullied are not afraid to die. I don't think it is consistent with what we know about the Unsullied to suppose that Grey Worm spared Jon Snow's life because he was frightened by, or even bothered about, what the consequences might be if he killed him. They were all prepared to die for their queen and liberator.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Steven Denton 24 May, 2019, 10:18:23 AM
That Small Council meeting wasn't the next day after the massacre. I felt that more time had passed, and the initial shock and grief had worn off a bit.

Turning back to Steve Denton's argument about Grey Worm's actions, that is logical if we assume that Grey Worm's priority is to live. But the Unsullied are not afraid to die. I don't think it is consistent with what we know about the Unsullied to suppose that Grey Worm spared Jon Snow's life because he was frightened by, or even bothered about, what the consequences might be if he killed him. They were all prepared to die for their queen and liberator.

My argument never include Grey Worm being afraid to die or motivated by fear at all. He’s conditioned to follow orders at the exclusion of all else, once his commander is removed he fails to make command decisions for reasons I payed out upthread. The bit about if he had killed John he would have been killed was a response to Leigh’s suggestion that he should have killed John and sailed off with his head as a trophy.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Keef Monkey 24 May, 2019, 11:49:33 AM
That Small Council meeting wasn't the next day after the massacre. I felt that more time had passed, and the initial shock and grief had worn off a bit.

Part of the problem with the focus of the story narrowing during the last couple of seasons is that there are still points where a considerable amount of time has passed between events, but because it's cutting straight from one event to another that sense of things happening later is missing.

In the past they would have had another storyline to cut away to for a couple of episodes before coming back to something but with everything boiling down to the main narrative late in the show there wasn't another storyline for them to use as a diversion.

One example is going straight from Missandei's death at the end of an episode to Dany being holed up and paranoid at the start of the next one. I know a few people who found it unbelievable that Dany would wind up in that state so quickly, but to me it definitely seemed to be the case that a fair amount of time has passed (months maybe?) between those two episodes.

Honestly think if they'd had something else going on they could have moved to for a couple of episodes before returning to Dany there would have been fewer complaints. They could possibly have cut over to King's Landing for a bit and spent an episode or so showing what's going on there and where Cersei's head was at (one criticism I do agree with is Cersei was really underused this season so that would have solved that too).

Likewise those people didn't seem to pick up on the fact that Tyrion had been imprisoned for a while before being taken out for negotiations (even though he had a longer beard, which is the universal cinematic language for 'time has passed'). Not saying all criticisms are down to this, but I definitely heard the same people complain repeatedly that something had happened too 'suddenly' when it was clearly days/weeks/months later.

At the same time though, while I think pacing the season out with some 'time passing' episodes, it probably just would have frustrated a lot of viewers. For the last couple of seasons I had friends flip between complaining that the show was rushing and was too battle heavy when what they really wanted was slower character driven episodes, to complaining after every slower character driven episode that nothing had happened to progress the plot. As much as they claimed to want a slower show, seemed like they were possibly too invested in and excited about seeing how things ended to have had the patience for one. 

There are definitely a lot of valid criticisms to be had about it, but for a lot of people the creators were probably screwed whatever they did once the backlash started snowballing, especially with the amount of 'the writing is bad now and if you still like it then you're a dum dum who doesn't understand what good writing is' posturing that was driving a lot of that (not here, just in general)!
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 24 May, 2019, 05:22:41 PM
I think Grey Worm was sensible not to kill Jon: killing your important hostages is a fairly stupid move.  When we last saw Grey Worm he was all fired up and slaughtering the opposition on his queen's orders.  We didn't get to see his reaction to her assassination - but it may have been a bit like Drogon's.  At that stage, there may have been a struggle to figure out how to survive.  The show sums all this up with Sansa's Basil Exposition about how King's Landing is under siege.

It made sense to negotiate.

(An interesting aside that I haven't seen discussed much is Drogon's seeming high intelligence.  He decides not to kill Jon and instead melts the throne.  Just how intelligent are the dragons?  And why do they allow themselves to be controlled by humans?)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: The Legendary Shark 24 May, 2019, 06:24:51 PM

I've managed to avoid all the spoilers but I've seen a lot of negativity, which had me worried, but I rather enjoyed that.

Now to read this thread from the beginning...

: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: IndigoPrime 24 May, 2019, 07:09:31 PM
(An interesting aside that I haven't seen discussed much is Drogon's seeming high intelligence.  He decides not to kill Jon and instead melts the throne.  Just how intelligent are the dragons?  And why do they allow themselves to be controlled by humans?)
I see them a bit like dogs. So Drogon understood that Daenerys was non-responsive, but didn’t understand that she’d been killed – and certainly not by Jon. Mourning, it took out its ire on something nearby, rather than toast Jon (who he knew as a ‘friend’ of sorts), scooped up him mum, and flew away. As for why they allow this, who knows? Why did wolves?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Richard 24 May, 2019, 11:31:28 PM
The bit about if he had killed John he would have been killed was a response to Leigh’s suggestion that he should have killed John and sailed off with his head as a trophy.
Ah, I see. Fair enough.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: The Monarch 26 May, 2019, 10:50:28 AM
I really want to think the brothers clegane are still kicking the fuck out of each other in what passes as an afterlife in this series :lol:
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 26 May, 2019, 11:53:47 AM
(An interesting aside that I haven't seen discussed much is Drogon's seeming high intelligence.  He decides not to kill Jon and instead melts the throne.  Just how intelligent are the dragons?  And why do they allow themselves to be controlled by humans?)
I see them a bit like dogs. So Drogon understood that Daenerys was non-responsive, but didn’t understand that she’d been killed – and certainly not by Jon. Mourning, it took out its ire on something nearby, rather than toast Jon (who he knew as a ‘friend’ of sorts), scooped up him mum, and flew away. As for why they allow this, who knows? Why did wolves?

I thought it was because Jon is a Targaryen and thus respected by the family dragons (through scent or  something). And maybe something instinctive, or magical, inside Drogon made it understand that the throne was to blame.  Or maybe not.

  I was expecting the one that Euron shot not to be dead after all; but maybe I've just been making too many Nikolai Dante comparisons.  (Also, why do they shout 'fire' when shooting crossbows, when firearms haven't been invented and thus shooting has no connection with fire? I fully realise how unimportant this is.)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: The Legendary Shark 26 May, 2019, 12:49:25 PM

Flaming arrows?

: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Hawkmumbler 26 May, 2019, 01:23:48 PM

Flaming arrows?
Are a bad cliche that really need to be phased out of fantasy fiction.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Richard 26 May, 2019, 01:31:05 PM
They're not really speaking English, they're speaking the Common Tongue, which would obviously be a completely different language, since they're on another world. But as a concession to the audience, their lines are being delivered in modern English, and so the Westerosi word for unleashing an arrow is translated into the word we would say, despite its etymology. It thereby acquires an anachronism which it doesn't possess in the original Westerosi.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Richard 26 May, 2019, 01:32:51 PM
Alternatively, maybe they were using dragons as weapons before the bow and arrow were invented, and "dracaris" means "fire."
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 26 May, 2019, 01:48:08 PM
They're not really speaking English, they're speaking the Common Tongue, which would obviously be a completely different language, since they're on another world. But as a concession to the audience, their lines are being delivered in modern English, and so the Westerosi word for unleashing an arrow is translated into the word we would say, despite its etymology. It thereby acquires an anachronism which it doesn't possess in the original Westerosi.

Fair enough.  I thought it was like Star Wars where by pure coincidence the common tongue is exactly the same as English. (Not impossible, it's a big universe.)

Double negatives must be a no-no* in Westerosi too then.

*See what I did there.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 26 May, 2019, 06:56:58 PM
... Though if I was being really pedantic, I'd point out that Brienne writes in English too. (Sorry)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 26 May, 2019, 07:21:53 PM
I went and read up about flaming arrows (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_thermal_weapons#Flaming_arrows.2C_bolts.2C_spears_and_rockets) (what you see in shows) and fire arrows (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_arrow) (bombs tied to arrows, basically).

Of note is that it's difficult to do a flaming arrow without it going out in mid air. 
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Eamonn Clarke 26 May, 2019, 08:07:57 PM
Some Loose talk on a Reddit in 2012:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/10ze0u/in_movies_archers_are_always_given_the_order_to/
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 26 May, 2019, 08:24:26 PM
Some Loose talk on a Reddit in 2012:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/10ze0u/in_movies_archers_are_always_given_the_order_to/

Well spotted!  Can't say I've heard 'nock' before.  Also I'm going with the tribal memory of weaponised dragons as an explanation for GoT (even though Richard's one is clearly the correct one).
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Eamonn Clarke 26 May, 2019, 08:47:01 PM
I’m pretty sure we hear the Nock command on the battlements in the Battle of Winterfell, and on top of the wall in the Watchers on the Wall episode (I watched it recently).
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Jim_Campbell 26 May, 2019, 11:57:14 PM
The correct set of commands to direct archers is: ARRERS! STRETCH… wait for it… wait for it… TWANG!
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 27 May, 2019, 12:15:57 AM
Plenty of "Loose!" action in the Battle of the Bastards (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZcFHS1BpS4).
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Richard 27 May, 2019, 12:43:21 AM
Based on that audition, Jim Campbell should re-write the entire 8th series of GoT by himself.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 27 May, 2019, 06:32:01 AM
Double negatives must be a no-no* in Westerosi too then.

*See what I did there.


Yeah, yeah.  ;)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Hawkmumbler 27 May, 2019, 03:16:42 PM
Didn't the Nights Watch during Watchers on the Wall respond to the commands 'Notch' and 'Loose'?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 27 May, 2019, 06:28:33 PM
Didn't the Nights Watch during Watchers on the Wall respond to the commands 'Notch' and 'Loose'?

Which makes it all the more anachronistic that they should use the command "fire" later...
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 27 May, 2019, 06:38:41 PM
Highly amusing Air New Zealand message to George R.R. Martin (http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/21/thanks-new-zealand/) - he responds by (sort of) promising he'll finish the next ASOIAF book by Summer 2020.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Keef Monkey 29 May, 2019, 05:39:39 PM
We started a rewatch from season 1 the other night (it'll be something we'll slowly chip away at so I expect we'll get to the end in a couple of years!) and it's weird to see how young everyone is.

It also makes at least some of the criticisms people had about the writing and pacing in later seasons feel a tiny bit like rose tinted glasses. One example that jumped out is that there's literally a scene where a journey from Kings Landing to Winterfell happens in no time at all, they just cut forward in time. It's funny because nobody cared at the time and later seasons got a total kicking for it. Right from the beginning they only really drew out those journeys when the journeys themselves were the story.

In any case, it feels quite exciting to be watching it all again, knowing there's so much good stuff to revisit.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 29 May, 2019, 06:06:03 PM
We started a rewatch from season 1 the other night (it'll be something we'll slowly chip away at so I expect we'll get to the end in a couple of years!) and it's weird to see how young everyone is.

It also makes at least some of the criticisms people had about the writing and pacing in later seasons feel a tiny bit like rose tinted glasses. One example that jumped out is that there's literally a scene where a journey from Kings Landing to Winterfell happens in no time at all, they just cut forward in time. It's funny because nobody cared at the time and later seasons got a total kicking for it. Right from the beginning they only really drew out those journeys when the journeys themselves were the story.

In any case, it feels quite exciting to be watching it all again, knowing there's so much good stuff to revisit.

I think that the early seasons actually cared about conveying the passing of time though, eg in the first episode they show the growth of the direwolves to communicate that many weeks or even months have passed from one scene to the next. I think the point in later seasons where people really started to knock the series for 'teleporting' characters and travel distances was that completely ludicrous episode where Gendry runs back to the wall, sends a raven to Danaerys (who is supposed to be 2/3 of a continent away), who then flies up far beyond the wall to find our gang still hanging out on the frozen lake apparently within 24 hours of Gendry leaving.

Also, its by the by, but I'm pretty sure that the scene in the first episode in King's Landing with Jaime and Cersei you're referring to was a very late addition that they had to put in because test audiences didn't understand that Jaime and Cersei were brother and sister. It wasn't originally written that way AFAIK.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 29 May, 2019, 10:23:51 PM
We started a rewatch from season 1 the other night (it'll be something we'll slowly chip away at so I expect we'll get to the end in a couple of years!) and it's weird to see how young everyone is.

It also makes at least some of the criticisms people had about the writing and pacing in later seasons feel a tiny bit like rose tinted glasses. One example that jumped out is that there's literally a scene where a journey from Kings Landing to Winterfell happens in no time at all, they just cut forward in time. It's funny because nobody cared at the time and later seasons got a total kicking for it. Right from the beginning they only really drew out those journeys when the journeys themselves were the story.

In any case, it feels quite exciting to be watching it all again, knowing there's so much good stuff to revisit.

Really have to do this too.  I didn't jump on board for a couple of seasons, and was only really catching up when the Red Wedding came around. 
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Smith 30 May, 2019, 06:25:05 AM
I think this will end up sort of like Fullmetal Alchemist.Once the final book is done,we will get a more faithful adaptation and this will just be remembered as weird fanfiction.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: SIP 30 May, 2019, 08:13:55 AM
I think this will end up sort of like Fullmetal Alchemist.Once the final book is done,we will get a more faithful adaptation and this will just be remembered as weird fanfiction.

IF you ever see those books......at the current rate of production Martin would be pushing 80 by the time the next two have been released.....and that's assuming he can finish it in two books . I wouldn't say the odds were great.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: JayzusB.Christ 30 May, 2019, 08:38:38 AM
I think this will end up sort of like Fullmetal Alchemist.Once the final book is done,we will get a more faithful adaptation and this will just be remembered as weird fanfiction.


I doubt it. Season 8 featured some of the most iconic scenes in television history. And the low-key episode before the battle with the Night King was utterly beautiful.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Smith 30 May, 2019, 09:26:22 AM
Right...nothing ever gets rebooted 20 years later.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Hawkmumbler 30 May, 2019, 09:33:19 AM
I think this will end up sort of like Fullmetal Alchemist.Once the final book is done,we will get a more faithful adaptation and this will just be remembered as weird fanfiction.

Did you list this directly from Cosmonauts video on S8?  :lol:

Not that I disagree, I thinks it's the most likely scenario also, gotta milk that cash cow.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: sheridan 30 May, 2019, 10:08:37 AM
I think this will end up sort of like Fullmetal Alchemist.Once the final book is done,we will get a more faithful adaptation and this will just be remembered as weird fanfiction.

Did you list this directly from Cosmonauts video on S8?  :lol:

Not that I disagree, I thinks it's the most likely scenario also, gotta milk that cash cow.

I think much will depend on a) what books get released when and b) how the new Lord of the Rings series works out...
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Professor Bear 30 May, 2019, 02:53:40 PM
I think this will end up sort of like Fullmetal Alchemist.

The lead English VA is revealed as a nonce IRL and I sell all my merch on Ebay in disgust?
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Dudley 31 May, 2019, 01:29:07 PM
I think this will end up sort of like Fullmetal Alchemist.Once the final book is done,we will get a more faithful adaptation and this will just be remembered as weird fanfiction.

It won't be a new adaptation - by that point they'll have the technology to recreate the original performers digitally and insert an infinite number of additional scenes / episodes.  It'll come in useful to pacify the population as the climate begins to break down in earnest, resource wars overwhelm the planet and Trump enters his eighth term as President.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: IndigoPrime 31 May, 2019, 01:32:12 PM
CYOA meets GoT meets CGI overload meets the end of reason.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: radiator 31 May, 2019, 07:02:09 PM
We started a rewatch from season 1 the other night (it'll be something we'll slowly chip away at so I expect we'll get to the end in a couple of years!) and it's weird to see how young everyone is.

It also makes at least some of the criticisms people had about the writing and pacing in later seasons feel a tiny bit like rose tinted glasses. One example that jumped out is that there's literally a scene where a journey from Kings Landing to Winterfell happens in no time at all, they just cut forward in time. It's funny because nobody cared at the time and later seasons got a total kicking for it. Right from the beginning they only really drew out those journeys when the journeys themselves were the story.

In any case, it feels quite exciting to be watching it all again, knowing there's so much good stuff to revisit.

Really have to do this too.  I didn't jump on board for a couple of seasons, and was only really catching up when the Red Wedding came around.

It's so worth it. The later seasons are certainly divisive, but seasons 1-4 are as good as TV gets. On a recent rewatch I was really struck by just how strong season 1 is. There's really no filler - almost every scene has some crucial element of characterisation or worldbuilding, or pushes the overall story forward in an important way. Every single episode has at least one major standout moment, and I think in some ways the lower budget and inability to show much action really forced them to think more about the scripting and dialogue in the early days. I also like how a lot more of the dialogue is ripped straight from the books - I'm really not keen on how the dialogue in the show got a lot more colloquial - almost contemporary - as time went on.

I don't see anyone attempting a reboot any time soon - and the petition to 'redo' season 8 is patently ridiculous - but what I'd really hope for, especially if and when the next two books get published, would be a complete redo of the audiobooks, something closer to a radio dramatisation with music, possibly even ambient sound effects etc and with either a full voice cast or at least a different actor for each POV character.

The current audiobooks are... fine, but very sloppily produced. They are full of continuity errors - mispronounciations or inconsistent pronounciations of character and place names, and though the narrator (Roy Dotrice) gamely does a separate voice performance for each character, they completely change from book to book, so for instance Arya suddenly talks like a pirate in book 4. It's incredibly distracting. He also passed away a few years ago, so they would need to find a new narrator for the remaining books anyway.
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: lincnashOZ 31 May, 2019, 08:34:46 PM
I think this will end up sort of like Fullmetal Alchemist.Once the final book is done,we will get a more faithful adaptation and this will just be remembered as weird fanfiction.

IF you ever see those books......at the current rate of production Martin would be pushing 80 by the time the next two have been released.....and that's assuming he can finish it in two books . I wouldn't say the odds were great.

I checked with my bookie and the odds are tightening for "coronary before completion".
 :P ;)
: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Magnetica 10 June, 2019, 09:11:40 PM
I finished watching season 8 a couple of weeks ago on Amazon Prime (having only watched seasons 1 to 7 in the last year and a half-ish) and have been reading this thread since.

A few observations.

Overall Game of Thrones is right up there with my favourite shows of all time...could even be the greatest.

I love the huge ensemble cast, the fact that there is no one lead character (can only really think of the The Wire where this is also the case), all the politically intrigue (way better than actual political dramas like The West Wing) and the fact that stuff that happens in earlier episodes is important in later ones.

Also really like that the villans aren't just evil (well apart from Joffrey and Ramsey) but have reasons for doing what they do.

As for season 8.

I agree with the comments that those who thought Daenerys' actions were out of character hadn't been paying attention. She had definitely done bad stuff before.

Don't understand the criticism of Jon, saying he finally did something good / right - he was doing that all the way through.

Don't understand the point about the pacing being off due to a shortened season. Yes there were few episodes, but they were longer, some way longer than normal, so I'm guessing screen time is about the same.

Episode 3 looked perfectly ok on Amazon in 1080.

It seems to me a lot of the criticism falls into a similar bucket to the recent Star Wars trilogy - characters not doing what people want / the plot not going where people wanted, rather than it not making sense.


: Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
: Funt Solo 10 June, 2019, 10:26:44 PM
I agree with the comments that those who thought Daenerys' actions were out of character hadn't been paying attention. She had definitely done bad stuff before.

One of my colleagues was upset with the direction the show took with Daenerys, and they said "I might as well just chuck my action figure in the trash now".  (I know: adult throws toys away in churlish fit.)

I think this is telling because (for my colleague) Daenerys had become their hero, and when your hero goes off and bombs Dresden it's uncomfortable.  In that regard, the show's way more (subtly) subversive than Starship Troopers in that it succeeded in making a lot of the audience fall in love with a tyrant.

The fact that she decides to take out the civilian population is foreshadowed in an earlier episode when she makes the argument to Tyrion that they should have overthrown Cersei themselves.  She's already blaming them as complicit: as enemies.