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Author Topic: The Political Thread  (Read 1047515 times)

Funt Solo

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15510 on: 15 March, 2019, 09:13:27 pm »
If democracy is good enough for choosing our national rulers, why is it not good enough for choosing (and holding to account) our European rulers?

MEPs are already democratically elected.  Direct democracy (i.e. referendums) isn't used to decide day to day policy because it can be demonstrated that the populace are non-expert in matters of economic longevity and therefore don't actually vote in their own best interests.

The question "What would you like your tax bill to look like?" might be met with lots of joyous "Zero!" responses.  Then the trash piles up, the roads fall apart and crime runs rampant on un-policed streets full of a dispirited youth with no social services to fall back on for support.  And people complain, because after all: they paid their taxes .... oops.
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JayzusB.Christ

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15511 on: 15 March, 2019, 10:25:15 pm »
A second referendum makes perfect sense when it's so blindingly obvious that the voters were misled.  It would be the same people voting, for Chrissakes, they'd just be better informed now.
“Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest”

The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15512 on: 15 March, 2019, 11:03:23 pm »

FS - take my arguments against UK MPs and the UK government and simply apply them to MEPs and the European Parliament. If I type them out again, some people may actually burst.

I would like my tax bill to be voluntary - once more, to avoid unnecessary bursting I won't go through it again.


Dandontdare

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15513 on: 15 March, 2019, 11:38:36 pm »
ah c'mon no appreciation for the ZOG  joke? I was quite proud of that!  :lol:

Just back from drinks with a lovely new acquaintance, an attractive linguist who's lived in Paris and Berlin, we swapped travel stories and music and fun anecdotes; the conversation only got rocky when she said she voted leave and would again. I foresee some tongue biting if I pursue this relationship.

M.I.K.

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15514 on: 15 March, 2019, 11:52:56 pm »

Dandontdare

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15515 on: 16 March, 2019, 01:01:51 am »
Heh, well it's been a while and I've just binge-watched 100 episodes of Seinfeld, so I'm seriously considering a foolproof strategy of joining UKIP to secure a date.

NapalmKev

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15516 on: 16 March, 2019, 06:19:17 am »
Europe is clearly an Evil institution. This is evidenced by the extra rights granted to workers, such as better pay, less hours and proper holiday entitlement. Another example of their foul machinations would be not allowing the sale of food products that have been turned into poison by Unscrupulous businesses desperate to make a profit even if it kills you.

How can anyone in their right mind want to be protected from harm or mistreatment?

Cheers

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JayzusB.Christ

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15517 on: 16 March, 2019, 01:51:09 pm »
Europe is clearly an Evil institution. This is evidenced by the extra rights granted to workers, such as better pay, less hours and proper holiday entitlement. Another example of their foul machinations would be not allowing the sale of food products that have been turned into poison by Unscrupulous businesses desperate to make a profit even if it kills you.

How can anyone in their right mind want to be protected from harm or mistreatment?

Cheers

But fishing rights and 350 million and sovereignty.
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IndigoPrime

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15518 on: 16 March, 2019, 03:23:04 pm »
The fishing thing still gets me. Much of the fishing stuff is again down to UK mismanagement. The vast majority of fish caught in British waters are not eaten much by Brits, and they are therefore sold to the EU. Many of the boats simply fish in UK waters, then head immediately to the EU to offload the fresh catch. That entire market will be dead, as will the industry itself. (Not that in the wider scheme of things that industry makes much of a dent anyway, beyond in a handful of local communities.)

Big wake-up calls are coming, and also for a large range of other sectors, not least restaurants and agriculture. I suspect they'll all continue to blame EU intransigence for a while, but when those amazing FTAs fail to materialise…

Funt Solo

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15519 on: 16 March, 2019, 04:00:51 pm »
FS - take my arguments against UK MPs and the UK government and simply apply them to MEPs and the European Parliament. If I type them out again, some people may actually burst.

I would like my tax bill to be voluntary - once more, to avoid unnecessary bursting I won't go through it again.

At this point it's tempting to believe that you're just a wind-up merchant.  You first make an argument that somehow democracy isn't being followed ("If democracy is good enough for choosing our national rulers, why is it not good enough for choosing ... our European rulers?"), then when I point out that it is, actually, you follow up with a completely unconnected comment about your general negative feelings towards the concept of democracy.

You're trying to have your cake (where's my democracy?) and eat it (I've always hated democracy) too.  It's a great way to spin out an argument, but it's a shit way to make sense.
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Tjm86

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15520 on: 16 March, 2019, 05:00:19 pm »
....  It's a great way to spin out an argument, but it's a shit way to make sense.

Is that where Theresa May learnt it from?

The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15521 on: 16 March, 2019, 06:53:33 pm »

FS - My attitude towards democracy is that it's okay to a point, in theory, but in practice it's more akin to mob rule because of the power element.

Most MPs don't seem to know what's best for their own constituencies or constituents, much less the rest of the country. They know only what's best for themselves, their friends and sponsors, their parties and lobbyists. They tend to live outside the world the rest of us inhabit. I don't think the MP for South Ribble knows (or particularly cares) what's best for the people of Tarleton or Croston, much less for the people of Lichfield, Kensington or Edinburgh, and yet they get to effect the lives of ordinary people throughout the UK.

Similarly, I don't see how a British MEP can know and vote for what's best for the ordinary people of the UK, let alone Greece, Spain, Belgium, etc. They, like their UK MP counterparts, must rely on political theory, often biased and/or incomplete reports, and lobbyists upon which to base their votes. This is all very well to a point but the kicker is that their decisions, whether right, wrong, indifferent, helpful or harmful, are then imposed on societies and communities they've never even heard of, much less visited.

I think it was Churchill who said that democracy is the least worst system of government, and I broadly agree with that. But government, as it stands today, is in my opinion a terrible system of organising society simply because of the power it assumes to have in order to impose things the people don't want on the people.

For whom do I vote, for example, if I don't want British made weapons sold to Saudi Arabia for use in subjugating Yemen? For whom do I vote if I don't want my money used to support American military adventures, corporate subsidies or banker bail-outs? For whom do I vote if I don't want a cashless society? Some tiny, one-trick party with no hope of getting "into power" so that when they lose I'll still be forced into supporting egregious actions, be forced into complicity? If I want to contribute to the good things about society like hospitals, roads and schools, why is the price for these things that I must also pay to bomb civilians, keep the Royal Family and bankrupt other countries?

The organisational potential of a body like the EU, or even a single global government, is enormous and could make our world a much better place - but giving such bodies the power to impose their decisions on the population is, in my view, the most dangerous threat civilisation faces. For me, it all boils down to one simple right - the right to say "no" and to have that right respected.


JayzusB.Christ

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15522 on: 16 March, 2019, 07:17:17 pm »
But yet when you get a referendum, which actually does give you at least some control over your country's future, you choose not to participate, Sharky.

I've said it before: I'm not at all averse to anarchism; if not your capitalist free-for-all version, but not even exercising the little bit of say you have in government achieves fuck all.  I'm proud to say that I voted on the winning side of the gay marriage referendum and the abortion one in my own country, thus helping to make my country a more tolerant and secular society.  (And if it turned out that my side had cheated and misinformed in the run-up to voting day, I'd happily have another run at each, but that's another story.)

If you don't like what they're doing, then lobby, campaign, protest, use the means available to you to get rid of them.  Otherwise you're doing nothing to change anything.
“Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest”

The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15523 on: 16 March, 2019, 07:25:30 pm »

FS - I'm sorry, I'm not sure my last properly addressed your point.

The Brexit referendum was a democratic mechanism similar to a general election. Most people in this country regard democracy as important, even vital, for the continuation of civilisation. When an MP is elected or a party elevated into power, I don't think there's ever been a situation where the result was called into question the day after and a new election demanded as soon as possible because the electorate has made a horrible mistake. The results of a general election are adhered to no matter what. If this referendum was truly a democratic mechanism then surely the result, good or bad (a subjective determination), must be treated with the same respect as a general election in a democratic society.

The crux of my original question was to ask whether the democratic process should be respected or not - irrespective of the consequences, which is a different argument.


The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15524 on: 16 March, 2019, 07:38:25 pm »

I understand your point, JBC, but I don't agree. If I don't believe in government power, then appealing to government power to get rid of government power isn't going to work.

If I had voted in the referendum then I would have voted "leave" for reasons of sovereignty and breaking up the corporate globalist power base. I would be very angry by now because the EU and "my own" pro-EU government have been pissing about for years now, doing everything they could to sabotage the result, aided and abetted by the MSM.

If there's another referendum, and then another, until "remain" triumphs, then my vote counts for nothing. The system simply cannot be changed from within, the last two and a half (or whatever) years is, to my eye, a clear demonstration of this view.